Question:

"Faris Jawad" wrote CAIRO , September 4, 2005 (IslamOnline.net) – The number of Muslims praying at British mosques will be double the number of church goers by 2040, according to a study by the British-based association Christian Research.

As a civilisation progresses, it rejects superstition and embraces learning, rational though and science. The west is becoming more and more secular, the middle east remains gripped in some dark age religious mode, based on faith instead of rational thought and truth. In the west about 7 centuries ago we embraced faith and the result was the crusades. Now 7 centuries on, we are becoming decent rational human beings, interested in rational thought and truth. Petty the Islamic world is still 7 centuries behind us in culture.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – UK Mosque Goers to Double Church Attendance: Study CAIRO , September 4, 2005 (IslamOnline.net) – The number of Muslims praying at British mosques will be double the number of church goers by 2040, according to a study by the British-based association Christian Research. Its more fun to learn about Bomb making. The study, The Future of The Church, said that there will be nearly twice as many Muslims at prayer in mosques on Friday as Christians attending Sunday services, reported the Telegraph on Sunday, September 4.

<snip Anyone got a link to the original study that IslamOnline.net is quoting bits from, please? Ta. Alan

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The study, The Future of The Church, said that there will be nearly twice as many Muslims at prayer in mosques on Friday as Christians attending Sunday services, reported the Telegraph on Sunday, September 4. Anyone got a link to the original study that IslamOnline.net is quoting bits from, please? UK Mosque Goers to Double Church Attendance: Study http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2005-09/04/article06.shtml I find it harder to find out what ‘Christian Research’ did publish this rapport. Religious belief ‘falling faster than church attendance’ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=CBCWNFDRXNMYZQF… By Matt Barnwell and Amy Iggulden – (Filed: 17/08/2005) Churches ‘on road to doom if trends continue’ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/09/03/nchur… By Jonathan Petre, Religion Correspondent – (Filed: 03/09/2005) It’s probably The Future of the Church, Relgious trends # 5, 2005/2006, edited by Peter Brierly,  20 pounds, to order at : http://www.christian-research.org.uk/shop/html/shopindex.htm

Thanks for those links, Alfred. It would still be good to see the actual report itself rather than just some people’s interpretations of it or bits they have extracted. However, the overall impression seems pretty clear. I don’t think many people would argue that Britain is becoming a less overtly Christian country. By that I mean that it is becoming less based on Christian ethics than it used to be and people in general know far less than they used to do about Christianity, even if they only knew it in the past in some sort of "intellectual sense" rather than being practising Christians themselves. While not wanting at all to play down the seriousness of the situation, which would be plain daft, I would just like to point out one or two good things that are happening: 1) As one of the comments quoted says, the Church of England (my lot) reckoned its congregations had increased by 1% in 2003. It is also pertinent to point out that non-Sunday worship and fellowship is becoming more important, e.g. home groups meeting during the week show a trend away from the more formalised approach to worship and something of a move back to how the New Testament churches worked. This is happening even in the C of E. (OK, you can pick yourself up off the floor). 2) Ten years ago the British churches employed about 500 paid youth workers. Now it is around 7000 and rising. Perhaps we are getting real about our faith at last. Alan

Response:

UK Mosque Goers to Double Church Attendance: Study CAIRO , September 4, 2005 (IslamOnline.net) – The number of Muslims praying at British mosques will be double the number of church goers by 2040, according to a study by the British-based association Christian Research. Its more fun to learn about Bomb making. The study, The Future of The Church, said that there will be nearly twice as many Muslims at prayer in mosques on Friday as Christians attending Sunday services, reported the Telegraph on Sunday, September 4. British government and academic sources said in 2004 that some 930,000 Muslims go to the mosque at least once a week against 916,000 regular worshipers in the Church of England, the mother church of the Anglican communion. Mosques in Britain range from the splendor of Regents Park Mosque, and the big central mosques in Birmingham and Manchester , to more modest structures, often converted from other buildings, according to the BBC. The first mosque in Britain is likely to have been one recorded in 1860 in Cardiff . Another early British mosque was established in 1887 in Mount Vernon Street in Liverpool , and moved to Brougham Terrace in 1889, where the building, which is now a Registry Office, continued to be used as a mosque until 1908. Britain ’s first purpose-built mosque was built at Woking in Surrey in 1894 with money from the ruler of Bhopal , Shah Jehan. In 1940 the British government allocated a sum of up to

Question:

The Information Superhighway and the Death of Mohammedanism "Muhammad’s empire of faith has managed to thrive in the modern world for one simple reason: Muslims have kept Muhammad’s dark past a secret. Indeed, they have gone beyond keeping it a secret; they have somehow convinced themselves (and many others) that Muhammad was an outstanding moral example, perhaps even the greatest moral example of all time. Perpetuating this fraud has been, in my opinion, the most stupendous deception in world history." http://answering-islam.org/Authors/Wood/islam_beheaded.htm

Answering-Islam is a Christian web site and their criticism has been adequately answered on various Muslim web sites. Those who run the web site have even acknowledged some of those rebuttals but after a while end up repeating the same old false accusations. Some of their negative comments can apply to Christianity as well and their usual insistence that Prophet Muhammad should have played by the rules of the 21st century, as they understand them, while ignoring Islam’s general guidelines is only meant to deceive people who are interested in Islam and would like to consider it as an alternative to Christianity.

Response:

The Information Superhighway and the Death of Mohammedanism "Muhammad

Question:

No Animals don’t go to heaven because they don’t have spirit.. The spirit is what makes men and animals differ.

I beg to differ!  Most of the animals I’ve known have far finer souls than the likes of YOU!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Re: Do animals go to heaven? Over here in rec.pets.cats.anecdotes, we like to console each other with comforting stories about a Rainbow Bridge that our pets cross over after death, where they wait for us to die so they can join us in heaven. Is it true, or are we just kidding ourselves? Charlie Charlie, Looks like it is kidding time. The Bible shows us that unreasoning animals were made to die, not live forever. 2 Pe 2:12, So?  SFAIK, ALL living creatures die, "reasoning" or not. (And it’s plain to see you’ve never known any cats intimately, if you consider them "unreasoning" – a lot of them are clever enough to outwit a good many humans!) There are other religions than "fundamentalist" Christianity, and other "holy" books, you know.  FYI, even EDUCATED biblical scholars can’t agree on the meaning of much of its contents, what makes YOU such an authority? This newsgroup (rec.pets.cats.anecdotes) has quite a few non-Christian members – Jews and Moslems and Budhists and Sikhs and Wiccans (and atheists, of course).  One reason we all get along (most of the time) is that we don’t try to force our personal religious beliefs on the others here.  I suggest you follow that example.  Religion is a very PERSONAL thing – no one has the right to impose his/her belief system on anyone else.  (Particularly when you weren’t invited to do so!)

And I am one of the christian members, who happens to believ that, as god wrote it, not us, who are we to tell anyone what we think god meant by such and such a verse, taken out of context to prove a point? and wouldn’t god explain it to you, or do you need a whole committee of self-righteous scholars to tell you what they think it means??

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Re: Do animals go to heaven? Of course animals go to heaven, as well as hell.  Regardless of what the mainstream believes, animals DO have souls and their souls are eternal as well. Another truth that most Christians are unaware of, is that sometimes animals are the incarnation of HUMAN souls too, depending upon their choices in previous lives. I’m reminded of a delightful Rudyard Kipling story!  (Was it "Rikki-Tikki-Tavi"?)

Oh good! I’m not the only crazy person out there who still reads kipling!!!

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What souls are you talking about. The body is the soul itself, not the spirit. Anyway, not all men go to Heaven. They make their choice to go to Hell.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No Animals don’t go to heaven because they don’t have spirit.. The spirit is what makes men and animals differ. I beg to differ!  Most of the animals I’ve known have far finer souls than the likes of YOU!

Response:

So?  SFAIK, ALL living creatures die, "reasoning" or not. (And it’s plain to see you’ve never known any cats intimately, if you consider them "unreasoning" – a lot of them are clever enough to outwit a good many humans!)

A gentle reminder folks, the thread is being crossposted, and we know what that leads to (g) a bit of trolling, methinks. How about ignoring the trolls & avoiding crossposting? Cheers, helen s

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Re: Do animals go to heaven? Of course animals go to heaven, as well as hell.  Regardless of what the mainstream believes, animals DO have souls and their souls are eternal as well. Another truth that most Christians are unaware of, is that sometimes animals are the incarnation of HUMAN souls too, depending upon their choices in previous lives. I’m reminded of a delightful Rudyard Kipling story!  (Was it "Rikki-Tikki-Tavi"?) Oh good! I’m not the only crazy person out there who still reads Kipling!!!

Count me in too. Many people today Kipple. He’s unfashionable today, so some are closet Kipplers!

Response:

Re: Do animals go to heaven? Of course animals go to heaven, as well as hell.  Regardless of what the mainstream believes, animals DO have souls and their souls are eternal as well. Another truth that most Christians are unaware of, is that sometimes animals are the incarnation of HUMAN souls too, depending upon their choices in previous lives.

I’m reminded of a delightful Rudyard Kipling story!  (Was it "Rikki-Tikki-Tavi"?) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Re: Do animals go to heaven? Over here in rec.pets.cats.anecdotes, we like to console each other with comforting stories about a Rainbow Bridge that our pets cross over after death, where they wait for us to die so they can join us in heaven. Is it true, or are we just kidding ourselves? Charlie Charlie, Looks like it is kidding time. The Bible shows us that unreasoning animals were made to die, not live forever. 2 Pe 2:12,

So?  SFAIK, ALL living creatures die, "reasoning" or not. (And it’s plain to see you’ve never known any cats intimately, if you consider them "unreasoning" – a lot of them are clever enough to outwit a good many humans!) There are other religions than "fundamentalist" Christianity, and other "holy" books, you know.  FYI, even EDUCATED biblical scholars can’t agree on the meaning of much of its contents, what makes YOU such an authority? This newsgroup (rec.pets.cats.anecdotes) has quite a few non-Christian members – Jews and Moslems and Budhists and Sikhs and Wiccans (and atheists, of course).  One reason we all get along (most of the time) is that we don’t try to force our personal religious beliefs on the others here.  I suggest you follow that example.  Religion is a very PERSONAL thing – no one has the right to impose his/her belief system on anyone else.  (Particularly when you weren’t invited to do so!)

Response:

No Animals don’t go to heaven because they don’t have spirit.. The spirit is what makes men and animals differ. Animals rely on their own insticts to survive. An animal thousands of years ago when compared to that animal of the same kind today are still doing the same thing. Eagles still build the same nest, beavers build the same dam. Their sexual activity is also instinct. Since man has spirit, it enables him to think, invent, learn new things, can even control the course of nature. create ways to improve himself, but most of all, they are born to love, emotional ,worship God, pray. In Genesis, it says after God has created the earth and everything on it ( including the animals ), He created man IN HIS OWN IMAGE.( with body and spirit)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Re: Do animals go to heaven? Over here in rec.pets.cats.anecdotes, we like to console each other with comforting stories about a Rainbow Bridge that our pets cross over after death, where they wait for us to die so they can join us in heaven. Is it true, or are we just kidding ourselves? Charlie Charlie, Looks like it is kidding time. The Bible shows us that unreasoning animals were made to die, not live forever. 2 Pe 2:12, "But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish." (NIV) Also notice Ps 49:20, "A man who has riches without understanding is like the beasts that perish." (NIV) But did you know that the Bible tells us that not all good people will go to Heaven? For example, how could Jesus’ statement be true here, if ALL the good ones went to Heaven? Mt 5:5, "Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth." (NIV) More on what the Bible has to say on this subject if you are interested. Sincerely,  James

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Re: Do animals go to heaven? Over here in rec.pets.cats.anecdotes, we like to console each other with comforting stories about a Rainbow Bridge that our pets cross over after death, where they wait for us to die so they can join us in heaven. Is it true, or are we just kidding ourselves? Charlie Charlie, Looks like it is kidding time. The Bible shows us that unreasoning animals were made to die, not live forever. 2 Pe 2:12, "But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish." (NIV) Also notice Ps 49:20, "A man who has riches without understanding is like the beasts that perish." (NIV) But did you know that the Bible tells us that not all good people will go to Heaven? For example, how could Jesus’ statement be true here, if ALL the good ones went to Heaven? Mt 5:5, "Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth." (NIV) More on what the Bible has to say on this subject if you are interested. Sincerely,  James This is not intended to offend people who follow the Christian faith – I was baptized into it as a young adult but since then have also drawn from other faiths to form my own beliefs. As for the Bible, I don’t view it as a direct pipeline to the word of God. The Bible has been written – and rewritten – by humans, each one of them influenced by personal biases and prevailing attitudes of the day. It’s been translated into countless versions, over and over, down the years, each time at the mercy of the skill – or its lack – of the scholars and translators. Finally, the Bible is taken up by modern-day Christians in its present form and quoted as, well, gospel. Every word. Every concept. Paraded out to make points, or win arguments. Who truly knows if animals are "unreasoning"? Or if there is a heaven – or indeed a rainbow bridge? Some matters are completely beyond our temporal comprehension, and will always be so. Shakespeare’s Hamlet nailed it: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Your view of the Bible coincides with mine, and I’m a regular churchgoer. If you want to quote the Bible, what about the part that says the lion shall lie down with the lamb?  If there are lions and lambs, there have to be dogs and cats.  Besides, if there are no animals in heaven, I ain’t going!  ;-) Joy

ditto!! and if i’m not much mistaken, god would probably clear out too; there’s also mention of trees etc, so i’m looking forward to having a good garden!! Look at st francis of assisi! Now there’s a guy i would have liked!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Re: Do animals go to heaven? Over here in rec.pets.cats.anecdotes, we like to console each other with comforting stories about a Rainbow Bridge that our pets cross over after death, where they wait for us to die so they can join us in heaven. Is it true, or are we just kidding ourselves? Charlie Charlie, Looks like it is kidding time. The Bible shows us that unreasoning animals were made to die, not live forever. 2 Pe 2:12, "But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish." (NIV) Also notice Ps 49:20, "A man who has riches without understanding is like the beasts that perish." (NIV) But did you know that the Bible tells us that not all good people will go to Heaven? For example, how could Jesus’ statement be true here, if ALL the good ones went to Heaven? Mt 5:5, "Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth." (NIV) More on what the Bible has to say on this subject if you are interested. Sincerely,  James This is not intended to offend people who follow the Christian faith – I was baptized into it as a young adult but since then have also drawn from other faiths to form my own beliefs. As for the Bible, I don’t view it as a direct pipeline to the word of God. The Bible has been written – and rewritten – by humans, each one of them influenced by personal biases and prevailing attitudes of the day. It’s been translated into countless versions, over and over, down the years, each time at the mercy of the skill – or its lack – of the scholars and translators. Finally, the Bible is taken up by modern-day Christians in its present form and quoted as, well, gospel. Every word. Every concept. Paraded out to make points, or win arguments. Who truly knows if animals are "unreasoning"? Or if there is a heaven – or indeed a rainbow bridge? Some matters are completely beyond our temporal comprehension, and will always be so. Shakespeare’s Hamlet nailed it: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Your view of the Bible coincides with mine, and I’m a regular churchgoer. If you want to quote the Bible, what about the part that says the lion shall lie down with the lamb?  If there are lions and lambs, there have to be dogs and cats.  Besides, if there are no animals in heaven, I ain’t going!  ;-) Joy

Response:

Re: Do animals go to heaven?

Of course animals go to heaven, as well as hell.  Regardless of what the mainstream believes, animals DO have souls and their souls are eternal as well. Another truth that most Christians are unaware of, is that sometimes animals are the incarnation of HUMAN souls too, depending upon their choices in previous lives. — Dore www.dorewilliamson.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Re: Do animals go to heaven? Over here in rec.pets.cats.anecdotes, we like to console each other with comforting stories about a Rainbow Bridge that our pets cross over after death, where they wait for us to die so they can join us in heaven. Is it true, or are we just kidding ourselves? Charlie Charlie, Looks like it is kidding time. The Bible shows us that unreasoning animals were made to die, not live forever. 2 Pe 2:12, "But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish." (NIV) Also notice Ps 49:20, "A man who has riches without understanding is like the beasts that perish." (NIV) But did you know that the Bible tells us that not all good people will go to Heaven? For example, how could Jesus’ statement be true here, if ALL the good ones went to Heaven? Mt 5:5, "Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth." (NIV) More on what the Bible has to say on this subject if you are interested. Sincerely,  James

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Re: Do animals go to heaven? Over here in rec.pets.cats.anecdotes, we like to console each other with comforting stories about a Rainbow Bridge that our pets cross over after death, where they wait for us to die so they can join us in heaven. Is it true, or are we just kidding ourselves? Charlie Charlie, Looks like it is kidding time. The Bible shows us that unreasoning animals were made to die, not live forever. 2 Pe 2:12, "But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish." (NIV) Also notice Ps 49:20, "A man who has riches without understanding is like the beasts that perish." (NIV) But did you know that the Bible tells us that not all good people will go to Heaven? For example, how could Jesus’ statement be true here, if ALL the good ones went to Heaven? Mt 5:5, "Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth." (NIV) More on what the Bible has to say on this subject if you are interested. Sincerely,  James This is not intended to offend people who follow the Christian faith – I was baptized into it as a young adult but since then have also drawn from other faiths to form my own beliefs. As for the Bible, I don’t view it as a direct pipeline to the word of God. The Bible has been written – and rewritten – by humans, each one of them influenced by personal biases and prevailing attitudes of the day. It’s been translated into countless versions, over and over, down the years, each time at the mercy of the skill – or its lack – of the scholars and translators. Finally, the Bible is taken up by modern-day Christians in its present form and quoted as, well, gospel. Every word. Every concept. Paraded out to make points, or win arguments. Who truly knows if animals are "unreasoning"? Or if there is a heaven – or indeed a rainbow bridge? Some matters are completely beyond our temporal comprehension, and will always be so. Shakespeare’s Hamlet nailed it: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

I’d have to agree with you on that As a christian, i do believe the bible to be the true word of god etc etc….however i also believe like you, that it is often misinterpreted and ‘edited’ to suit our own world view. I believe that God speaks to everyone, and we shoudln’t judge other’s beliefs or opinions just because ‘this verse in the bible says (or we think it does) it’s wrong’ After all, if the bible was the word of god, who are we to ‘interpret’ what it says? wouldn’t it be beyond our own judgement, and shouldn’t it be used more for our own improvement, instead of ‘Improving’ others? (as I am sure you, as well as myself and many others have been at the recieving end of many times)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Re: Do animals go to heaven? Over here in rec.pets.cats.anecdotes, we like to console each other with comforting stories about a Rainbow Bridge that our pets cross over after death, where they wait for us to die so they can join us in heaven. Is it true, or are we just kidding ourselves? Charlie Charlie, Looks like it is kidding time. The Bible shows us that unreasoning animals were made to die, not live forever. 2 Pe 2:12, "But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish." (NIV) Also notice Ps 49:20, "A man who has riches without understanding is like the beasts that perish." (NIV) But did you know that the Bible tells us that not all good people will go to Heaven? For example, how could Jesus’ statement be true here, if ALL the good ones went to Heaven? Mt 5:5, "Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth." (NIV) More on what the Bible has to say on this subject if you are interested. Sincerely,  James

This is not intended to offend people who follow the Christian faith – I was baptized into it as a young adult but since then have also drawn from other faiths to form my own beliefs. As for the Bible, I don’t view it as a direct pipeline to the word of God. The Bible has been written – and rewritten – by humans, each one of them influenced by personal biases and prevailing attitudes of the day. It’s been translated into countless versions, over and over, down the years, each time at the mercy of the skill – or its lack – of the scholars and translators. Finally, the Bible is taken up by modern-day Christians in its present form and quoted as, well, gospel. Every word. Every concept. Paraded out to make points, or win arguments. Who truly knows if animals are "unreasoning"? Or if there is a heaven – or indeed a rainbow bridge? Some matters are completely beyond our temporal comprehension, and will always be so. Shakespeare’s Hamlet nailed it: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Response:

I am afraid I will have to disagree with you here James…in your approach more so than what you have said. I am apractising Christian, and prefer to err on the side of grace rather than judgement. Mainly from the point of view that we ‘interpret’ the scriptures too much to support our own opinions. Our point of view isn’t necessarily the right one; I am not saying the scripture you quoted were incorrect; but as centuries of mis-interpreting scripture to make christianity a male dominated religion has driven many women away, i would be hesitant to ‘pass judgement’ on a subject that is mentioned in so many different ways in the bible.  for example; everyone know of the scripture that speaks of heaven "…the lion will lie down with the lamb, etc etc". And to Charlie; a scripture I read was Ecclesiastes chapter 3 verses18-21 if you can find a bible, I suggest you read the whole thin, it may shed a bit of light: but the main one that got to me was verse 20 and 21 from that section: " All go to the same place; all come from the dust and to dust all return. Who knows if the spirit of man rises upwards and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?" These seems to me to be saying ‘who are we to know or decide…it’s just as likely either way…’ ie. it’s known to God, ask him. And as for where you will go after death, I am not going to push any more onto you unless you ask, and will not annoy this group any further with my beliefs. My apology for offending anyone, or off topic posting, however I felt obliged to present another christian point of view from james’…no offense to james, however not everyone sees God the same way.

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Re: Do animals go to heaven? Over here in rec.pets.cats.anecdotes, we like to console each other with comforting stories about a Rainbow Bridge that our pets cross over after death, where they wait for us to die so they can join us in heaven. Is it true, or are we just kidding ourselves? Charlie

Maybe someday mankind will outgrow the need to invent gods and religions and realize that all we have is the earth and each other. If that day ever comes, we can love and respect all species equally. We might even learn to love the Human species instead of constantly striving to make ourselves extinct.

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If you die and you are reunited with your beloved pets it would be heaven. If they weren’t there then I’d say you didn’t go to heaven!!

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Re: Do animals go to heaven? Over here in rec.pets.cats.anecdotes, we like to console each other with comforting stories about a Rainbow Bridge that our pets cross over after death, where they wait for us to die so they can join us in heaven. Is it true, or are we just kidding ourselves? Charlie

Charlie, Looks like it is kidding time. The Bible shows us that unreasoning animals were made to die, not live forever. 2 Pe 2:12, "But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish." (NIV) Also notice Ps 49:20, "A man who has riches without understanding is like the beasts that perish." (NIV) But did you know that the Bible tells us that not all good people will go to Heaven? For example, how could Jesus’ statement be true here, if ALL the good ones went to Heaven? Mt 5:5, "Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth." (NIV) More on what the Bible has to say on this subject if you are interested. Sincerely,  James

Response:

Over here in rec.pets.cats.anecdotes, we like to console each other with comforting stories about a Rainbow Bridge that our pets cross over after death, where they wait for us to die so they can join us in heaven. Is it true, or are we just kidding ourselves?

Hmmmm…. Why don’t you try to cross it, and let us know from the other side?

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Over here in rec.pets.cats.anecdotes, we like to console each other with comforting stories about a Rainbow Bridge that our pets cross over after death, where they wait for us to die so they can join us in heaven. Is it true, or are we just kidding ourselves? Charlie

LOL thanks Charlie, I needed this laugh today,  say hi to Tweakers and Holly for me, I still love his stripes

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I have read a number of accounts of "near death experiences" and all of them mention the presence of pets on the other side.  Why would God create such extraordinary creatures if He didn’t want us to reunite with them.

I don’t know.  Why did God create dracunculiasis? http://asylumeclectica.com/malady/archives/dracun.htm Charlie

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I have read a number of accounts of "near death experiences" and all of them mention the presence of pets on the other side.  Why would God create such extraordinary creatures if He didn’t want us to reunite with them.

Response:

Over here in rec.pets.cats.anecdotes, we like to console each other with comforting stories about a Rainbow Bridge that our pets cross over after death, where they wait for us to die so they can join us in heaven. Is it true, or are we just kidding ourselves? Charlie

Response:

Over here in rec.pets.cats.anecdotes, we like to console each other with comforting stories about a Rainbow Bridge that our pets cross over after death, where they wait for us to die so they can join us in heaven. Is it true, or are we just kidding ourselves? Charlie

For the purposes of rec.pets.cats.anecdote, what does it matter? As long as it makes you feel better, do it, think it, believe it.

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Over here in rec.pets.cats.anecdotes, we like to console each other with comforting stories about a Rainbow Bridge that our pets cross over after death, where they wait for us to die so they can join us in heaven. Is it true, or are we just kidding ourselves? Charlie

I was watching world renouned tel-evangelist John Hagee one day and he said that he firmly believed that there will be a place in heaven for pets and I believe him. http://members.aol.com/larrystark/ http://members.aol.com/larrystark/strays.htm

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Question:

Doug — Supah!!! Great job! Stick with your method! It’s working GREAT for you! Yours, Caleb

Response:

I’m still on my trip to visit family in the U.S. (Boston), and still on my diet. This week was a good week – down 1.6 kg = 3.5 lb. Last week I didn’t lost anything, but all the other weeks I’ve been here this month I’ve had good weight losses each week. My diet method: Low-cal plus exercise – 1700 calories/day limit plus 1000 weekly bonus calories (avoids frustration of strict daily limit); can carryover leftover calories to next day (add to bonus); can subtract logged exercise calories from daily calorie intake (an incentive to exercise); bonus is reset each Friday to 1000 + anything leftover from 1700×7 calories from the week before. Numbers from this week: Days on diet: 84 Weight (kg): 126.5 – 111.8 (14.7 kg lost!) Weight (lb): 278.3 – 246.0 (32.3 lb lost!) Lb/Week average loss: 2.70 BMI: 41.8 – 36.9 Percent body mass lost: 11.6% Percent done to goal of 79 kg: 31% Almost 1/3rd done with the weight loss phase of my diet! doug

Response:

Nope — not a biologist, although that sounds like one heck of a fascinating field. Caleb is a pretty unusual name (hard to pronounce, people sometimes think it’s a female name, etc.) and that’s one reason we didn’t give it to our son (and he’s happy we didnt’, I can tell you!). Yours, Caleb

Response:

Great job! Stick with your method! It’s working GREAT for you! Yours, Caleb

Well now that’s creepy.  I used to know a Caleb B.  And it strikes me teleport is a once-existing outfit up in the pacific northwest, where I’m from, altho I get ‘no address associated with nodename’ for it now. Man.  That’s eerie.  You’re not a biologist too, are you? -Tay

Response:

Nope — not a biologist, although that sounds like one heck of a fascinating field. Caleb is a pretty unusual name (hard to pronounce, people sometimes think it’s a female name, etc.) and that’s one reason we didn’t give it to our son (and he’s happy we didnt’, I can tell you!).

Well I imagine you know it is a name from the Judeo-Christian religion. Caleb was a Judahite who spied out Canaan and encouraged the Israelites to take possession of the land. — Matthew Slow and steady wins the race.

Response:

great news, I hope your father is continuing to improve, Lee

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m still on my trip to visit family in the U.S. (Boston), and still on my diet. This week was a good week – down 1.6 kg = 3.5 lb. Last week I didn’t lost anything, but all the other weeks I’ve been here this month I’ve had good weight losses each week. My diet method: Low-cal plus exercise – 1700 calories/day limit plus 1000 weekly bonus calories (avoids frustration of strict daily limit); can carryover leftover calories to next day (add to bonus); can subtract logged exercise calories from daily calorie intake (an incentive to exercise); bonus is reset each Friday to 1000 + anything leftover from 1700×7 calories from the week before. Numbers from this week: Days on diet: 84 Weight (kg): 126.5 – 111.8 (14.7 kg lost!) Weight (lb): 278.3 – 246.0 (32.3 lb lost!) Lb/Week average loss: 2.70 BMI: 41.8 – 36.9 Percent body mass lost: 11.6% Percent done to goal of 79 kg: 31% Almost 1/3rd done with the weight loss phase of my diet! doug

Response:

Question:

Your message was cancelled by cretin Feris Jewwad Pope Attacks Roots of Terror # In pointed remarks, the pontiff tells Muslim leaders in Germany that ‘teaching is the vehicle’ to promote peace or sow seeds of fanaticism. By Tracy Wilkinson, Times Staff Writer August 21, 2005 latimes.com COLOGNE, Germany – Pope Benedict XVI chose unusually tough language Saturday to tell Muslim leaders they must work harder to combat terrorism and steer youths away from "the darkness of a new barbarism." On the third day of his first foreign trip as pope, Benedict met with 10 representatives of Germany’s growing Muslim community as part of his effort to reach out to other faiths. But he quickly dispensed with the diplomatic niceties and zeroed in on the "cruel fanaticism" of terrorism and the responsibility of religious leaders and educators to prevent it. "You guide Muslim believers and train them in the Islamic faith," he told his select audience at the archdiocese in Cologne. "Teaching is the vehicle through which ideas and convictions are transmitted…. There is no room for apathy and disengagement, and even less for partiality and sectarianism." Benedict condemned terrorism as a "perverse and cruel decision" that "shows contempt for the sacred right to life and undermines the very foundations of all civil society." Terrorists, he said, falsely use religion to poison relations among faiths. Benedict’s meeting with the Muslims was not televised, in contrast to his high-profile visit to a synagogue the day before. His pointed remarks were made to a community with whom his relations were already strained, and marked a departure from the papacy of John Paul II, who worked to promote interfaith dialogue. In his previous post as enforcer of church doctrine, the former Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger had been quite critical of Islam in a number of his writings. Before and after becoming pope in April, he voiced alarm at the loss of Christian identity. He was particularly concerned about Europe, where the rise of multiculturalism has included the accommodation of Islam. Benedict has been careful, however, not to link terrorism and Islam, and did not go along with an aide’s attempt to condemn the July 7 bombings in London by suspected Islamic militants as an anti-Christian act. Several Muslim community leaders said they were disappointed that the pope did not visit a mosque, as he had the synagogue, and said that had he done so his message would have had more power. Emerging from Saturday’s meeting, Muslim leaders sought to find common ground with the pontiff. "Terrorism is not only a problem that comes up in countries where there are Christians," said Ridvan Cakir, president of the Turkish-Islamic Union in Europe, who led the delegation that met with the pope. "It’s a problem that we all share," he told reporters. "We all have to be aware of that problem and fight against it." Benedict’s relations with Islam were already much more complicated than those of John Paul, the first pope to visit a mosque. Muslim leaders here said privately that they were very worried about the new pontiff and what they considered to be his anti-Islamic views. Most Muslims in Germany are of Turkish heritage. As cardinal, Benedict had spoken out against admitting predominantly Muslim Turkey to the European Union, saying such a move would dilute the continent’s Christian character. Turks were outraged at what they saw as an ethnic slur. Mahmut Askar, a prominent Muslim leader in Cologne, said he was not surprised at the pope’s stern lecture. Muslims, he said, are routinely and unfairly blamed as a group for the terrorism committed by a handful of extremists. "We are used to this," Askar, a Turkish-born engineer who has lived in Germany for more than three decades, said in an interview. He is the secretary-general of a group that represents Turkish Muslims in Germany. "No one would blame Christianity for terror acts committed by a Christian. But Muslims are always blamed," he said. "What else can we do to show the world that we are not born terrorists?" Still, Askar chose his words carefully and chose to thank the pope rather than criticize him. "With everyone referring these days to the ‘war of civilizations,’ it is very important that we dialogue," he said. Germany has one of the oldest and largest Muslim populations in Western Europe. The country is home to at least 3 million Muslims, about 2.5 million of whom are Turks who for decades lived in a largely separate culture that only now is integrating into the larger German society. Seyda Can, one of three women who attended the meeting with the pope and one of two wearing a head scarf, said she believed in the pope’s call for a stronger dialogue between Christians and Muslims. "When we have this dialogue, we will have trust and we won’t be afraid," Can, 27, told reporters after the meeting. "With the dialogue, terrorism will be finished." Benedict is in Cologne to preside over World Youth Day, a raucous festival that has brought an estimated 700,000 young Catholics to this city on the Rhine for a week of prayer, music and celebration. The young pilgrims, from nearly 200 countries, gathered in a massive field outside the city for a three-hour prayer vigil with the pope Saturday night and then camped out so they could attend Benedict’s concluding Mass today. In his remarks to the Muslim leaders, almost all of whom were Turkish, Benedict acknowledged that Christians, too, had killed in the name of religion. "How many pages of history record battles, and even wars, that have been waged with both sides invoking the name of God, as if fighting and killing the enemy could be pleasing to him?" he said. "The recollection of these sad events should fill us with shame, for we know only too well what atrocities have been committed in the name of religion."

Response:

Pope Attacks Roots of Terror # In pointed remarks, the pontiff tells Muslim leaders in Germany that ‘teaching is the vehicle’ to promote peace or sow seeds of fanaticism. By Tracy Wilkinson, Times Staff Writer August 21, 2005 latimes.com COLOGNE, Germany – Pope Benedict XVI chose unusually tough language Saturday to tell Muslim leaders they must work harder to combat terrorism and steer youths away from "the darkness of a new barbarism." On the third day of his first foreign trip as pope, Benedict met with 10 representatives of Germany’s growing Muslim community as part of his effort to reach out to other faiths. But he quickly dispensed with the diplomatic niceties and zeroed in on the "cruel fanaticism" of terrorism and the responsibility of religious leaders and educators to prevent it. "You guide Muslim believers and train them in the Islamic faith," he told his select audience at the archdiocese in Cologne. "Teaching is the vehicle through which ideas and convictions are transmitted…. There is no room for apathy and disengagement, and even less for partiality and sectarianism." Benedict condemned terrorism as a "perverse and cruel decision" that "shows contempt for the sacred right to life and undermines the very foundations of all civil society." Terrorists, he said, falsely use religion to poison relations among faiths. Benedict’s meeting with the Muslims was not televised, in contrast to his high-profile visit to a synagogue the day before. His pointed remarks were made to a community with whom his relations were already strained, and marked a departure from the papacy of John Paul II, who worked to promote interfaith dialogue. In his previous post as enforcer of church doctrine, the former Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger had been quite critical of Islam in a number of his writings. Before and after becoming pope in April, he voiced alarm at the loss of Christian identity. He was particularly concerned about Europe, where the rise of multiculturalism has included the accommodation of Islam. Benedict has been careful, however, not to link terrorism and Islam, and did not go along with an aide’s attempt to condemn the July 7 bombings in London by suspected Islamic militants as an anti-Christian act. Several Muslim community leaders said they were disappointed that the pope did not visit a mosque, as he had the synagogue, and said that had he done so his message would have had more power. Emerging from Saturday’s meeting, Muslim leaders sought to find common ground with the pontiff. "Terrorism is not only a problem that comes up in countries where there are Christians," said Ridvan Cakir, president of the Turkish-Islamic Union in Europe, who led the delegation that met with the pope. "It’s a problem that we all share," he told reporters. "We all have to be aware of that problem and fight against it." Benedict’s relations with Islam were already much more complicated than those of John Paul, the first pope to visit a mosque. Muslim leaders here said privately that they were very worried about the new pontiff and what they considered to be his anti-Islamic views. Most Muslims in Germany are of Turkish heritage. As cardinal, Benedict had spoken out against admitting predominantly Muslim Turkey to the European Union, saying such a move would dilute the continent’s Christian character. Turks were outraged at what they saw as an ethnic slur. Mahmut Askar, a prominent Muslim leader in Cologne, said he was not surprised at the pope’s stern lecture. Muslims, he said, are routinely and unfairly blamed as a group for the terrorism committed by a handful of extremists. "We are used to this," Askar, a Turkish-born engineer who has lived in Germany for more than three decades, said in an interview. He is the secretary-general of a group that represents Turkish Muslims in Germany. "No one would blame Christianity for terror acts committed by a Christian. But Muslims are always blamed," he said. "What else can we do to show the world that we are not born terrorists?" Still, Askar chose his words carefully and chose to thank the pope rather than criticize him. "With everyone referring these days to the ‘war of civilizations,’ it is very important that we dialogue," he said. Germany has one of the oldest and largest Muslim populations in Western Europe. The country is home to at least 3 million Muslims, about 2.5 million of whom are Turks who for decades lived in a largely separate culture that only now is integrating into the larger German society. Seyda Can, one of three women who attended the meeting with the pope and one of two wearing a head scarf, said she believed in the pope’s call for a stronger dialogue between Christians and Muslims. "When we have this dialogue, we will have trust and we won’t be afraid," Can, 27, told reporters after the meeting. "With the dialogue, terrorism will be finished." Benedict is in Cologne to preside over World Youth Day, a raucous festival that has brought an estimated 700,000 young Catholics to this city on the Rhine for a week of prayer, music and celebration. The young pilgrims, from nearly 200 countries, gathered in a massive field outside the city for a three-hour prayer vigil with the pope Saturday night and then camped out so they could attend Benedict’s concluding Mass today. In his remarks to the Muslim leaders, almost all of whom were Turkish, Benedict acknowledged that Christians, too, had killed in the name of religion. "How many pages of history record battles, and even wars, that have been waged with both sides invoking the name of God, as if fighting and killing the enemy could be pleasing to him?" he said. "The recollection of these sad events should fill us with shame, for we know only too well what atrocities have been committed in the name of religion."

Response:

Question:

There are plenty of dumb people in Scotland.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How Aisha Bhutta Converted her Parents, Family and 30 Friends to Islam Aisha Bhutta, also known as Debbie Rogers, is serene. She sits on the sofa in big front room of her tenement flat in Cowcaddens, Glasgow. The walls are hung with quotations from the Koran, a special clock to remind the family of prayer times and posters of the Holy City of Mecca. Aisha’s piercing blue eyes sparkle with evangelical zeal, she smiles with radiance only true believers possess. Her face is that of a strong Scots lass – no nonsense, good-humoured – but it is carefully covered with a hijab. For a good Christian girl to convert to Islam and marry a Muslim is extraordinary enough. But more than that, she has also converted her parents, most of the rest of her family and at least 30 friends and neighbours. Her family were austere Christians with whom Rogers regularly attended Salvation Army meetings. When all the other teenagers in Britain were kissing their George Michael posters goodnight, Rogers had pictures of Jesus up on her wall. And yet she found that Christianity was not enough; there were too many unanswered questions and she felt dissatisfied with the lack of disciplined structure for her beliefs. "There had to be more for me to obey than just doing prayers when I felt like it." Aisha had first seen her future husband, Mohammad Bhutta, when she was 10 and regular customer at the shop, run by his family. She would see him in the back, praying. "There was contentment and peace in what he was doing. He said he was a Muslim. I said: What’s a Muslim?". Later with his help she began looking deeper into Islam. By the age of 17, she had read the entire Koran in Arabic. "Everything I read", she says, "Was making sense." She made the decision to convert at16. "When I said the words, it was like a big burden I had been carrying on my shoulders had been thrown off. I felt like a new-born baby." Despite her conversion however, Mohammed’s parents were against their marrying. They saw her as a Western woman who would lead their eldest son astray and give the family a bad name; she was, Mohammed’s father believed, "the biggest enemy." Nevertheless, the couple married in the local mosque. Aisha wore a dress hand-sewn by Mohammed’s mother and sisters who sneaked into the ceremony against the wishes of his father who refused to attend. It was his elderly grandmother who paved the way for a bond between the women. She arrived from Pakistan where mixed-race marriages were even more taboo, and insisted on meeting Aisha. She was so impressed by the fact that she had learned the Koran and Punjabi that she convinced the others; slowly, Aisha, now 32, became one of the family. Aisha’s parents, Michael and Marjory Rogers, though did attend the wedding, were more concerned with the clothes their daughter was now wearing (the traditional shalwaar kameez) and what the neighbours would think. Six years later, Aisha embarked on a mission to convert them and the rest of her family, bar her sister ("I’m still working on her). "My husband and I worked on my mum and dad, telling them about Islam and they saw the changes in me, like I stopped answering back!" Her mother soon followed in her footsteps. Marjory Rogers changed her name to Sumayyah and became a devout Muslim. "She wore the hijab and did her prayers on time and nothing ever mattered to her except her connections with God." Aisha’s father proved a more difficult recruit, so she enlisted the help of her newly converted mother (who has since died of cancer). "My mum and I used to talk to my father about Islam and we were sitting in the sofa in the kitchen one day and he said: "What are the words you say when you become a Muslim?" "Me and my mum just jumped on top of him." Three years later, Aisha’s brother converted "over the telephone – thanks to BT", then his wife and children followed, followed by her sister’s son. It didn’t stop there. Her family converted, Aisha turned her attention to Cowcaddens, with its tightly packed rows of crumbling, gray tenement flats. Every Monday for the past 13 years, Aisha has held classes in Islam for Scottish women. So far she has helped to convert over 30. The women come from a bewildering array of backgrounds. Trudy, a lecturer at the University of Glasgow and a former Catholic, attended Aisha’s classes purely because she was commissioned to carry out some research. But after six months of classes she converted, deciding that Christianity was riddled with "logical inconsistencies". "I could tell she was beginning to be affected by the talks", Aisha says. How could she tell? "I don’t know, it was just a feeling." The classes include Muslim girls tempted by Western ideals and needing salvation, practicing Muslim women who want an open forum for discussion denied them at the local male-dominated mosque, and those simply interested in Islam. Aisha welcomes questions. "We cannot expect people blindly to believe." Her husband, Mohammad Bhutta, now 41, does not seem so driven to convert Scottish lads to Muslim brothers. He occasionally helps out in the family restaurant, but his main aim in life is to ensure the couple’s five children grow up as Muslims. The eldest, Safia, "nearly 14, Al-Hamdulillah (Praise be to God!)", is not averse to a spot of recruiting herself. One day she met a woman in the street and carried her shopping, the woman attended Aisha’s classes and is now a Muslim. "I can honestly say I have never regretted it", Aisha says of her conversion to Islam. "Every marriage has its ups and downs and sometimes you need something to pull you out of any hardship. But the Prophet Peace be upon him, said: ‘Every hardship has an ease.’ So when you’re going through a difficult stage, you work for that ease to come." Mohammed is more romantic: "I feel we have known each other for centuries and must never part from one another. According to Islam, you are not just partners for life, you can be partners in heaven as well, for ever. Its a beautiful thing, you know." http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/archive/article.php?lang=E&id=36252

If this doesn’t say it all..nothing does Islam will replace collapsing Amerikan empire Warning there are anti-Islam forgers and trolls amongst us, proceed with caution

Response:

WHAT ABOUT THOSE THAT CONVERT TO FALUN GANG IF THEY GET THIRTY LIKE THIS WHORE SHOULD WE JOIN THEM. DID ALL YOU ISLAMIC WHORES OF SATAN BECOME CHRISTIANS WHEN CHRISTIANITY WAS THE FASTEST GROWING RELIGION PETER

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How Aisha Bhutta Converted her Parents, Family and 30 Friends to Islam Aisha Bhutta, also known as Debbie Rogers, is serene. She sits on the sofa in big front room of her tenement flat in Cowcaddens, Glasgow. The walls are hung with quotations from the Koran, a special clock to remind the family of prayer times and posters of the Holy City of Mecca. Aisha’s piercing blue eyes sparkle with evangelical zeal, she smiles with radiance only true believers possess. Her face is that of a strong Scots lass – no nonsense, good-humoured – but it is carefully covered with a hijab. For a good Christian girl to convert to Islam and marry a Muslim is extraordinary enough. But more than that, she has also converted her parents, most of the rest of her family and at least 30 friends and neighbours. Her family were austere Christians with whom Rogers regularly attended Salvation Army meetings. When all the other teenagers in Britain were kissing their George Michael posters goodnight, Rogers had pictures of Jesus up on her wall. And yet she found that Christianity was not enough; there were too many unanswered questions and she felt dissatisfied with the lack of disciplined structure for her beliefs. "There had to be more for me to obey than just doing prayers when I felt like it." Aisha had first seen her future husband, Mohammad Bhutta, when she was 10 and regular customer at the shop, run by his family. She would see him in the back, praying. "There was contentment and peace in what he was doing. He said he was a Muslim. I said: What’s a Muslim?". Later with his help she began looking deeper into Islam. By the age of 17, she had read the entire Koran in Arabic. "Everything I read", she says, "Was making sense." She made the decision to convert at16. "When I said the words, it was like a big burden I had been carrying on my shoulders had been thrown off. I felt like a new-born baby." Despite her conversion however, Mohammed’s parents were against their marrying. They saw her as a Western woman who would lead their eldest son astray and give the family a bad name; she was, Mohammed’s father believed, "the biggest enemy." Nevertheless, the couple married in the local mosque. Aisha wore a dress hand-sewn by Mohammed’s mother and sisters who sneaked into the ceremony against the wishes of his father who refused to attend. It was his elderly grandmother who paved the way for a bond between the women. She arrived from Pakistan where mixed-race marriages were even more taboo, and insisted on meeting Aisha. She was so impressed by the fact that she had learned the Koran and Punjabi that she convinced the others; slowly, Aisha, now 32, became one of the family. Aisha’s parents, Michael and Marjory Rogers, though did attend the wedding, were more concerned with the clothes their daughter was now wearing (the traditional shalwaar kameez) and what the neighbours would think. Six years later, Aisha embarked on a mission to convert them and the rest of her family, bar her sister ("I’m still working on her). "My husband and I worked on my mum and dad, telling them about Islam and they saw the changes in me, like I stopped answering back!" Her mother soon followed in her footsteps. Marjory Rogers changed her name to Sumayyah and became a devout Muslim. "She wore the hijab and did her prayers on time and nothing ever mattered to her except her connections with God." Aisha’s father proved a more difficult recruit, so she enlisted the help of her newly converted mother (who has since died of cancer). "My mum and I used to talk to my father about Islam and we were sitting in the sofa in the kitchen one day and he said: "What are the words you say when you become a Muslim?" "Me and my mum just jumped on top of him." Three years later, Aisha’s brother converted "over the telephone – thanks to BT", then his wife and children followed, followed by her sister’s son. It didn’t stop there. Her family converted, Aisha turned her attention to Cowcaddens, with its tightly packed rows of crumbling, gray tenement flats. Every Monday for the past 13 years, Aisha has held classes in Islam for Scottish women. So far she has helped to convert over 30. The women come from a bewildering array of backgrounds. Trudy, a lecturer at the University of Glasgow and a former Catholic, attended Aisha’s classes purely because she was commissioned to carry out some research. But after six months of classes she converted, deciding that Christianity was riddled with "logical inconsistencies". "I could tell she was beginning to be affected by the talks", Aisha says. How could she tell? "I don’t know, it was just a feeling." The classes include Muslim girls tempted by Western ideals and needing salvation, practicing Muslim women who want an open forum for discussion denied them at the local male-dominated mosque, and those simply interested in Islam. Aisha welcomes questions. "We cannot expect people blindly to believe." Her husband, Mohammad Bhutta, now 41, does not seem so driven to convert Scottish lads to Muslim brothers. He occasionally helps out in the family restaurant, but his main aim in life is to ensure the couple’s five children grow up as Muslims. The eldest, Safia, "nearly 14, Al-Hamdulillah (Praise be to God!)", is not averse to a spot of recruiting herself. One day she met a woman in the street and carried her shopping, the woman attended Aisha’s classes and is now a Muslim. "I can honestly say I have never regretted it", Aisha says of her conversion to Islam. "Every marriage has its ups and downs and sometimes you need something to pull you out of any hardship. But the Prophet Peace be upon him, said: ‘Every hardship has an ease.’ So when you’re going through a difficult stage, you work for that ease to come." Mohammed is more romantic: "I feel we have known each other for centuries and must never part from one another. According to Islam, you are not just partners for life, you can be partners in heaven as well, for ever. Its a beautiful thing, you know." http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/archive/article.php?lang=E&id=36252

Response:

…some more ignorate people have converted to islam. http://www.truthandgrace.com/muslimlegacy.htm allah u fubar

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How Aisha Bhutta Converted her Parents, Family and 30 Friends to Islam Aisha Bhutta, also known as Debbie Rogers, is serene. She sits on the sofa in big front room of her tenement flat in Cowcaddens, Glasgow. The walls are hung with quotations from the Koran, a special clock to remind the family of prayer times and posters of the Holy City of Mecca. Aisha’s piercing blue eyes sparkle with evangelical zeal, she smiles with radiance only true believers possess. Her face is that of a strong Scots lass – no nonsense, good-humoured – but it is carefully covered with a hijab. For a good Christian girl to convert to Islam and marry a Muslim is extraordinary enough. But more than that, she has also converted her parents, most of the rest of her family and at least 30 friends and neighbours. Her family were austere Christians with whom Rogers regularly attended Salvation Army meetings. When all the other teenagers in Britain were kissing their George Michael posters goodnight, Rogers had pictures of Jesus up on her wall. And yet she found that Christianity was not enough; there were too many unanswered questions and she felt dissatisfied with the lack of disciplined structure for her beliefs. "There had to be more for me to obey than just doing prayers when I felt like it." Aisha had first seen her future husband, Mohammad Bhutta, when she was 10 and regular customer at the shop, run by his family. She would see him in the back, praying. "There was contentment and peace in what he was doing. He said he was a Muslim. I said: What’s a Muslim?". Later with his help she began looking deeper into Islam. By the age of 17, she had read the entire Koran in Arabic. "Everything I read", she says, "Was making sense." She made the decision to convert at16. "When I said the words, it was like a big burden I had been carrying on my shoulders had been thrown off. I felt like a new-born baby." Despite her conversion however, Mohammed’s parents were against their marrying. They saw her as a Western woman who would lead their eldest son astray and give the family a bad name; she was, Mohammed’s father believed, "the biggest enemy." Nevertheless, the couple married in the local mosque. Aisha wore a dress hand-sewn by Mohammed’s mother and sisters who sneaked into the ceremony against the wishes of his father who refused to attend. It was his elderly grandmother who paved the way for a bond between the women. She arrived from Pakistan where mixed-race marriages were even more taboo, and insisted on meeting Aisha. She was so impressed by the fact that she had learned the Koran and Punjabi that she convinced the others; slowly, Aisha, now 32, became one of the family. Aisha’s parents, Michael and Marjory Rogers, though did attend the wedding, were more concerned with the clothes their daughter was now wearing (the traditional shalwaar kameez) and what the neighbours would think. Six years later, Aisha embarked on a mission to convert them and the rest of her family, bar her sister ("I’m still working on her). "My husband and I worked on my mum and dad, telling them about Islam and they saw the changes in me, like I stopped answering back!" Her mother soon followed in her footsteps. Marjory Rogers changed her name to Sumayyah and became a devout Muslim. "She wore the hijab and did her prayers on time and nothing ever mattered to her except her connections with God." Aisha’s father proved a more difficult recruit, so she enlisted the help of her newly converted mother (who has since died of cancer). "My mum and I used to talk to my father about Islam and we were sitting in the sofa in the kitchen one day and he said: "What are the words you say when you become a Muslim?" "Me and my mum just jumped on top of him." Three years later, Aisha’s brother converted "over the telephone – thanks to BT", then his wife and children followed, followed by her sister’s son. It didn’t stop there. Her family converted, Aisha turned her attention to Cowcaddens, with its tightly packed rows of crumbling, gray tenement flats. Every Monday for the past 13 years, Aisha has held classes in Islam for Scottish women. So far she has helped to convert over 30. The women come from a bewildering array of backgrounds. Trudy, a lecturer at the University of Glasgow and a former Catholic, attended Aisha’s classes purely because she was commissioned to carry out some research. But after six months of classes she converted, deciding that Christianity was riddled with "logical inconsistencies". "I could tell she was beginning to be affected by the talks", Aisha says. How could she tell? "I don’t know, it was just a feeling." The classes include Muslim girls tempted by Western ideals and needing salvation, practicing Muslim women who want an open forum for discussion denied them at the local male-dominated mosque, and those simply interested in Islam. Aisha welcomes questions. "We cannot expect people blindly to believe." Her husband, Mohammad Bhutta, now 41, does not seem so driven to convert Scottish lads to Muslim brothers. He occasionally helps out in the family restaurant, but his main aim in life is to ensure the couple’s five children grow up as Muslims. The eldest, Safia, "nearly 14, Al-Hamdulillah (Praise be to God!)", is not averse to a spot of recruiting herself. One day she met a woman in the street and carried her shopping, the woman attended Aisha’s classes and is now a Muslim. "I can honestly say I have never regretted it", Aisha says of her conversion to Islam. "Every marriage has its ups and downs and sometimes you need something to pull you out of any hardship. But the Prophet Peace be upon him, said: ‘Every hardship has an ease.’ So when you’re going through a difficult stage, you work for that ease to come." Mohammed is more romantic: "I feel we have known each other for centuries and must never part from one another. According to Islam, you are not just partners for life, you can be partners in heaven as well, for ever. Its a beautiful thing, you know." http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/archive/article.php?lang=E&id=36252

She sure sounds like one ignorant BITCH, doesn’t she?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How Aisha Bhutta Converted her Parents, Family and 30 Friends to Islam Aisha Bhutta, also known as Debbie Rogers, is serene. She sits on the sofa in big front room of her tenement flat in Cowcaddens, Glasgow. The walls are hung with quotations from the Koran, a special clock to remind the family of prayer times and posters of the Holy City of Mecca. Aisha’s piercing blue eyes sparkle with evangelical zeal, she smiles with radiance only true believers possess. Her face is that of a strong Scots lass – no nonsense, good-humoured – but it is carefully covered with a hijab. For a good Christian girl to convert to Islam and marry a Muslim is extraordinary enough. But more than that, she has also converted her parents, most of the rest of her family and at least 30 friends and neighbours. Her family were austere Christians with whom Rogers regularly attended Salvation Army meetings. When all the other teenagers in Britain were kissing their George Michael posters goodnight, Rogers had pictures of Jesus up on her wall. And yet she found that Christianity was not enough; there were too many unanswered questions and she felt dissatisfied with the lack of disciplined structure for her beliefs. "There had to be more for me to obey than just doing prayers when I felt like it." Aisha had first seen her future husband, Mohammad Bhutta, when she was 10 and regular customer at the shop, run by his family. She would see him in the back, praying. "There was contentment and peace in what he was doing. He said he was a Muslim. I said: What’s a Muslim?". Later with his help she began looking deeper into Islam. By the age of 17, she had read the entire Koran in Arabic. "Everything I read", she says, "Was making sense." She made the decision to convert at16. "When I said the words, it was like a big burden I had been carrying on my shoulders had been thrown off. I felt like a new-born baby." Despite her conversion however, Mohammed’s parents were against their marrying. They saw her as a Western woman who would lead their eldest son astray and give the family a bad name; she was, Mohammed’s father believed, "the biggest enemy." Nevertheless, the couple married in the local mosque. Aisha wore a dress hand-sewn by Mohammed’s mother and sisters who sneaked into the ceremony against the wishes of his father who refused to attend. It was his elderly grandmother who paved the way for a bond between the women. She arrived from Pakistan where mixed-race marriages were even more taboo, and insisted on meeting Aisha. She was so impressed by the fact that she had learned the Koran and Punjabi that she convinced the others; slowly, Aisha, now 32, became one of the family. Aisha’s parents, Michael and Marjory Rogers, though did attend the wedding, were more concerned with the clothes their daughter was now wearing (the traditional shalwaar kameez) and what the neighbours would think. Six years later, Aisha embarked on a mission to convert them and the rest of her family, bar her sister ("I’m still working on her). "My husband and I worked on my mum and dad, telling them about Islam and they saw the changes in me, like I stopped answering back!" Her mother soon followed in her footsteps. Marjory Rogers changed her name to Sumayyah and became a devout Muslim. "She wore the hijab and did her prayers on time and nothing ever mattered to her except her connections with God." Aisha’s father proved a more difficult recruit, so she enlisted the help of her newly converted mother (who has since died of cancer). "My mum and I used to talk to my father about Islam and we were sitting in the sofa in the kitchen one day and he said: "What are the words you say when you become a Muslim?" "Me and my mum just jumped on top of him." Three years later, Aisha’s brother converted "over the telephone – thanks to BT", then his wife and children followed, followed by her sister’s son. It didn’t stop there. Her family converted, Aisha turned her attention to Cowcaddens, with its tightly packed rows of crumbling, gray tenement flats. Every Monday for the past 13 years, Aisha has held classes in Islam for Scottish women. So far she has helped to convert over 30. The women come from a bewildering array of backgrounds. Trudy, a lecturer at the University of Glasgow and a former Catholic, attended Aisha’s classes purely because she was commissioned to carry out some research. But after six months of classes she converted, deciding that Christianity was riddled with "logical inconsistencies". "I could tell she was beginning to be affected by the talks", Aisha says. How could she tell? "I don’t know, it was just a feeling." The classes include Muslim girls tempted by Western ideals and needing salvation, practicing Muslim women who want an open forum for discussion denied them at the local male-dominated mosque, and those simply interested in Islam. Aisha welcomes questions. "We cannot expect people blindly to believe." Her husband, Mohammad Bhutta, now 41, does not seem so driven to convert Scottish lads to Muslim brothers. He occasionally helps out in the family restaurant, but his main aim in life is to ensure the couple’s five children grow up as Muslims. The eldest, Safia, "nearly 14, Al-Hamdulillah (Praise be to God!)", is not averse to a spot of recruiting herself. One day she met a woman in the street and carried her shopping, the woman attended Aisha’s classes and is now a Muslim. "I can honestly say I have never regretted it", Aisha says of her conversion to Islam. "Every marriage has its ups and downs and sometimes you need something to pull you out of any hardship. But the Prophet Peace be upon him, said: ‘Every hardship has an ease.’ So when you’re going through a difficult stage, you work for that ease to come." Mohammed is more romantic: "I feel we have known each other for centuries and must never part from one another. According to Islam, you are not just partners for life, you can be partners in heaven as well, for ever. Its a beautiful thing, you know." http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/archive/article.php?lang=E&id=36252

If this doesn’t say it all..nothing does Islam will replace collapsing Amerikan empire Warning there are anti-Islam forgers and trolls amongst us, proceed with caution

Response:

How Aisha Bhutta Converted her Parents, Family and 30 Friends to Islam Aisha Bhutta, also known as Debbie Rogers, is serene. She sits on the sofa in big front room of her tenement flat in Cowcaddens, Glasgow. The walls are hung with quotations from the Koran, a special clock to remind the family of prayer times and posters of the Holy City of Mecca. Aisha’s piercing blue eyes sparkle with evangelical zeal, she smiles with radiance only true believers possess. Her face is that of a strong Scots lass – no nonsense, good-humoured – but it is carefully covered with a hijab. For a good Christian girl to convert to Islam and marry a Muslim is extraordinary enough. But more than that, she has also converted her parents, most of the rest of her family and at least 30 friends and neighbours. Her family were austere Christians with whom Rogers regularly attended Salvation Army meetings. When all the other teenagers in Britain were kissing their George Michael posters goodnight, Rogers had pictures of Jesus up on her wall. And yet she found that Christianity was not enough; there were too many unanswered questions and she felt dissatisfied with the lack of disciplined structure for her beliefs. "There had to be more for me to obey than just doing prayers when I felt like it." Aisha had first seen her future husband, Mohammad Bhutta, when she was 10 and regular customer at the shop, run by his family. She would see him in the back, praying. "There was contentment and peace in what he was doing. He said he was a Muslim. I said: What’s a Muslim?". Later with his help she began looking deeper into Islam. By the age of 17, she had read the entire Koran in Arabic. "Everything I read", she says, "Was making sense." She made the decision to convert at16. "When I said the words, it was like a big burden I had been carrying on my shoulders had been thrown off. I felt like a new-born baby." Despite her conversion however, Mohammed’s parents were against their marrying. They saw her as a Western woman who would lead their eldest son astray and give the family a bad name; she was, Mohammed’s father believed, "the biggest enemy." Nevertheless, the couple married in the local mosque. Aisha wore a dress hand-sewn by Mohammed’s mother and sisters who sneaked into the ceremony against the wishes of his father who refused to attend. It was his elderly grandmother who paved the way for a bond between the women. She arrived from Pakistan where mixed-race marriages were even more taboo, and insisted on meeting Aisha. She was so impressed by the fact that she had learned the Koran and Punjabi that she convinced the others; slowly, Aisha, now 32, became one of the family. Aisha’s parents, Michael and Marjory Rogers, though did attend the wedding, were more concerned with the clothes their daughter was now wearing (the traditional shalwaar kameez) and what the neighbours would think. Six years later, Aisha embarked on a mission to convert them and the rest of her family, bar her sister ("I’m still working on her). "My husband and I worked on my mum and dad, telling them about Islam and they saw the changes in me, like I stopped answering back!" Her mother soon followed in her footsteps. Marjory Rogers changed her name to Sumayyah and became a devout Muslim. "She wore the hijab and did her prayers on time and nothing ever mattered to her except her connections with God." Aisha’s father proved a more difficult recruit, so she enlisted the help of her newly converted mother (who has since died of cancer). "My mum and I used to talk to my father about Islam and we were sitting in the sofa in the kitchen one day and he said: "What are the words you say when you become a Muslim?" "Me and my mum just jumped on top of him." Three years later, Aisha’s brother converted "over the telephone – thanks to BT", then his wife and children followed, followed by her sister’s son. It didn’t stop there. Her family converted, Aisha turned her attention to Cowcaddens, with its tightly packed rows of crumbling, gray tenement flats. Every Monday for the past 13 years, Aisha has held classes in Islam for Scottish women. So far she has helped to convert over 30. The women come from a bewildering array of backgrounds. Trudy, a lecturer at the University of Glasgow and a former Catholic, attended Aisha’s classes purely because she was commissioned to carry out some research. But after six months of classes she converted, deciding that Christianity was riddled with "logical inconsistencies". "I could tell she was beginning to be affected by the talks", Aisha says. How could she tell? "I don’t know, it was just a feeling." The classes include Muslim girls tempted by Western ideals and needing salvation, practicing Muslim women who want an open forum for discussion denied them at the local male-dominated mosque, and those simply interested in Islam. Aisha welcomes questions. "We cannot expect people blindly to believe." Her husband, Mohammad Bhutta, now 41, does not seem so driven to convert Scottish lads to Muslim brothers. He occasionally helps out in the family restaurant, but his main aim in life is to ensure the couple’s five children grow up as Muslims. The eldest, Safia, "nearly 14, Al-Hamdulillah (Praise be to God!)", is not averse to a spot of recruiting herself. One day she met a woman in the street and carried her shopping, the woman attended Aisha’s classes and is now a Muslim. "I can honestly say I have never regretted it", Aisha says of her conversion to Islam. "Every marriage has its ups and downs and sometimes you need something to pull you out of any hardship. But the Prophet Peace be upon him, said: ‘Every hardship has an ease.’ So when you’re going through a difficult stage, you work for that ease to come." Mohammed is more romantic: "I feel we have known each other for centuries and must never part from one another. According to Islam, you are not just partners for life, you can be partners in heaven as well, for ever. Its a beautiful thing, you know." http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/archive/article.php?lang=E&id=36252

Response:

Question:

…unfortunately, muslims are ignorate people who love to kill and be killed. http://www.truthandgrace.com/muslimlegacy.htm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Pope Attacks Roots of Terror # In pointed remarks, the pontiff tells Muslim leaders in Germany that ‘teaching is the vehicle’ to promote peace or sow seeds of fanaticism. By Tracy Wilkinson, Times Staff Writer August 21, 2005 latimes.com COLOGNE, Germany – Pope Benedict XVI chose unusually tough language Saturday to tell Muslim leaders they must work harder to combat terrorism and steer youths away from "the darkness of a new barbarism." On the third day of his first foreign trip as pope, Benedict met with 10 representatives of Germany’s growing Muslim community as part of his effort to reach out to other faiths. But he quickly dispensed with the diplomatic niceties and zeroed in on the "cruel fanaticism" of terrorism and the responsibility of religious leaders and educators to prevent it. "You guide Muslim believers and train them in the Islamic faith," he told his select audience at the archdiocese in Cologne. "Teaching is the vehicle through which ideas and convictions are transmitted…. There is no room for apathy and disengagement, and even less for partiality and sectarianism." Benedict condemned terrorism as a "perverse and cruel decision" that "shows contempt for the sacred right to life and undermines the very foundations of all civil society." Terrorists, he said, falsely use religion to poison relations among faiths. Benedict’s meeting with the Muslims was not televised, in contrast to his high-profile visit to a synagogue the day before. His pointed remarks were made to a community with whom his relations were already strained, and marked a departure from the papacy of John Paul II, who worked to promote interfaith dialogue. In his previous post as enforcer of church doctrine, the former Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger had been quite critical of Islam in a number of his writings. Before and after becoming pope in April, he voiced alarm at the loss of Christian identity. He was particularly concerned about Europe, where the rise of multiculturalism has included the accommodation of Islam. Benedict has been careful, however, not to link terrorism and Islam, and did not go along with an aide’s attempt to condemn the July 7 bombings in London by suspected Islamic militants as an anti-Christian act. Several Muslim community leaders said they were disappointed that the pope did not visit a mosque, as he had the synagogue, and said that had he done so his message would have had more power. Emerging from Saturday’s meeting, Muslim leaders sought to find common ground with the pontiff. "Terrorism is not only a problem that comes up in countries where there are Christians," said Ridvan Cakir, president of the Turkish-Islamic Union in Europe, who led the delegation that met with the pope. "It’s a problem that we all share," he told reporters. "We all have to be aware of that problem and fight against it." Benedict’s relations with Islam were already much more complicated than those of John Paul, the first pope to visit a mosque. Muslim leaders here said privately that they were very worried about the new pontiff and what they considered to be his anti-Islamic views. Most Muslims in Germany are of Turkish heritage. As cardinal, Benedict had spoken out against admitting predominantly Muslim Turkey to the European Union, saying such a move would dilute the continent’s Christian character. Turks were outraged at what they saw as an ethnic slur. Mahmut Askar, a prominent Muslim leader in Cologne, said he was not surprised at the pope’s stern lecture. Muslims, he said, are routinely and unfairly blamed as a group for the terrorism committed by a handful of extremists. "We are used to this," Askar, a Turkish-born engineer who has lived in Germany for more than three decades, said in an interview. He is the secretary-general of a group that represents Turkish Muslims in Germany. "No one would blame Christianity for terror acts committed by a Christian. But Muslims are always blamed," he said. "What else can we do to show the world that we are not born terrorists?" Still, Askar chose his words carefully and chose to thank the pope rather than criticize him. "With everyone referring these days to the ‘war of civilizations,’ it is very important that we dialogue," he said. Germany has one of the oldest and largest Muslim populations in Western Europe. The country is home to at least 3 million Muslims, about 2.5 million of whom are Turks who for decades lived in a largely separate culture that only now is integrating into the larger German society. Seyda Can, one of three women who attended the meeting with the pope and one of two wearing a head scarf, said she believed in the pope’s call for a stronger dialogue between Christians and Muslims. "When we have this dialogue, we will have trust and we won’t be afraid," Can, 27, told reporters after the meeting. "With the dialogue, terrorism will be finished." Benedict is in Cologne to preside over World Youth Day, a raucous festival that has brought an estimated 700,000 young Catholics to this city on the Rhine for a week of prayer, music and celebration. The young pilgrims, from nearly 200 countries, gathered in a massive field outside the city for a three-hour prayer vigil with the pope Saturday night and then camped out so they could attend Benedict’s concluding Mass today. In his remarks to the Muslim leaders, almost all of whom were Turkish, Benedict acknowledged that Christians, too, had killed in the name of religion. "How many pages of history record battles, and even wars, that have been waged with both sides invoking the name of God, as if fighting and killing the enemy could be pleasing to him?" he said. "The recollection of these sad events should fill us with shame, for we know only too well what atrocities have been committed in the name of religion."

Big Benny, lacing up the gloves!

Response:

Pope Attacks Roots of Terror # In pointed remarks, the pontiff tells Muslim leaders in Germany that ‘teaching is the vehicle’ to promote peace or sow seeds of fanaticism. By Tracy Wilkinson, Times Staff Writer August 21, 2005 latimes.com COLOGNE, Germany – Pope Benedict XVI chose unusually tough language Saturday to tell Muslim leaders they must work harder to combat terrorism and steer youths away from "the darkness of a new barbarism." On the third day of his first foreign trip as pope, Benedict met with 10 representatives of Germany’s growing Muslim community as part of his effort to reach out to other faiths. But he quickly dispensed with the diplomatic niceties and zeroed in on the "cruel fanaticism" of terrorism and the responsibility of religious leaders and educators to prevent it. "You guide Muslim believers and train them in the Islamic faith," he told his select audience at the archdiocese in Cologne. "Teaching is the vehicle through which ideas and convictions are transmitted…. There is no room for apathy and disengagement, and even less for partiality and sectarianism." Benedict condemned terrorism as a "perverse and cruel decision" that "shows contempt for the sacred right to life and undermines the very foundations of all civil society." Terrorists, he said, falsely use religion to poison relations among faiths. Benedict’s meeting with the Muslims was not televised, in contrast to his high-profile visit to a synagogue the day before. His pointed remarks were made to a community with whom his relations were already strained, and marked a departure from the papacy of John Paul II, who worked to promote interfaith dialogue. In his previous post as enforcer of church doctrine, the former Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger had been quite critical of Islam in a number of his writings. Before and after becoming pope in April, he voiced alarm at the loss of Christian identity. He was particularly concerned about Europe, where the rise of multiculturalism has included the accommodation of Islam. Benedict has been careful, however, not to link terrorism and Islam, and did not go along with an aide’s attempt to condemn the July 7 bombings in London by suspected Islamic militants as an anti-Christian act. Several Muslim community leaders said they were disappointed that the pope did not visit a mosque, as he had the synagogue, and said that had he done so his message would have had more power. Emerging from Saturday’s meeting, Muslim leaders sought to find common ground with the pontiff. "Terrorism is not only a problem that comes up in countries where there are Christians," said Ridvan Cakir, president of the Turkish-Islamic Union in Europe, who led the delegation that met with the pope. "It’s a problem that we all share," he told reporters. "We all have to be aware of that problem and fight against it." Benedict’s relations with Islam were already much more complicated than those of John Paul, the first pope to visit a mosque. Muslim leaders here said privately that they were very worried about the new pontiff and what they considered to be his anti-Islamic views. Most Muslims in Germany are of Turkish heritage. As cardinal, Benedict had spoken out against admitting predominantly Muslim Turkey to the European Union, saying such a move would dilute the continent’s Christian character. Turks were outraged at what they saw as an ethnic slur. Mahmut Askar, a prominent Muslim leader in Cologne, said he was not surprised at the pope’s stern lecture. Muslims, he said, are routinely and unfairly blamed as a group for the terrorism committed by a handful of extremists. "We are used to this," Askar, a Turkish-born engineer who has lived in Germany for more than three decades, said in an interview. He is the secretary-general of a group that represents Turkish Muslims in Germany. "No one would blame Christianity for terror acts committed by a Christian. But Muslims are always blamed," he said. "What else can we do to show the world that we are not born terrorists?" Still, Askar chose his words carefully and chose to thank the pope rather than criticize him. "With everyone referring these days to the ‘war of civilizations,’ it is very important that we dialogue," he said. Germany has one of the oldest and largest Muslim populations in Western Europe. The country is home to at least 3 million Muslims, about 2.5 million of whom are Turks who for decades lived in a largely separate culture that only now is integrating into the larger German society. Seyda Can, one of three women who attended the meeting with the pope and one of two wearing a head scarf, said she believed in the pope’s call for a stronger dialogue between Christians and Muslims. "When we have this dialogue, we will have trust and we won’t be afraid," Can, 27, told reporters after the meeting. "With the dialogue, terrorism will be finished." Benedict is in Cologne to preside over World Youth Day, a raucous festival that has brought an estimated 700,000 young Catholics to this city on the Rhine for a week of prayer, music and celebration. The young pilgrims, from nearly 200 countries, gathered in a massive field outside the city for a three-hour prayer vigil with the pope Saturday night and then camped out so they could attend Benedict’s concluding Mass today. In his remarks to the Muslim leaders, almost all of whom were Turkish, Benedict acknowledged that Christians, too, had killed in the name of religion. "How many pages of history record battles, and even wars, that have been waged with both sides invoking the name of God, as if fighting and killing the enemy could be pleasing to him?" he said. "The recollection of these sad events should fill us with shame, for we know only too well what atrocities have been committed in the name of religion."

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Question:

TinyArm…@gmail.com wrote: > Sane people go insane after becoming involved in scientology so if you > have any type of instability or mental health issues you should stay > very far far far away because Scieno will only compound them a hundred > fold – just ask ARS’s busiest pro-scieno poster Barbara Schwartz.  Or > better yet read her posts about radio controlled bacteria to get a > clear picture of the combination of mental illness and scientology.

If you go insane – or screw up in any way – you can be placed on an amends project where you must "strike a blow against the enemy." Scientology won’t ever really take the insane person back, but they will use him/her as a tool for spamming etc. So, even if you do go insane, you can have a long association with the cult – if you just "cooperate" with it – and they can "use" you.

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Mxsmanic wrote: > Jim Winters writes: > > Anyone know any celebrities who are NOT scientologists who have spoken > > out against the very real danger of psychiatric abuse? > Psychiatric abuse is a non-problem.  Psychiatrists are simply medical > doctors who attempt to treat mental illnesses medically.  With many > mental illnesses (psychosis, OCD, depression, etc.) they achieve quite > a significant degree of success.

Psychiatrists have the power to commit people to hospitals against their will, to force them to take medication, or to testify as to their mental state in a court of law. Is it so hard to believe that some psychiatrists might try to use these powers in a corrupt way?

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Jim Winters writes: > Psychiatrists have the power to commit people to hospitals against > their will, to force them to take medication, or to testify as to their > mental state in a court of law. Is it so hard to believe that some > psychiatrists might try to use these powers in a corrupt way?

MDs in general have similar powers.  There is abuse among both groups. However, that doesn’t negate the utility of psychiatric medicine, which benefits a great many people. — Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

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William P (dot dot) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Lobsterboy" <lobsterboy_2…@yahoo.es> wrote in > news:1124377241.693962.208310@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com: > > After reading dozens of self-help books and thousands of post at ASS > > and several other forums, and not having found almost anything that > > could help, I’m ready to give a shot to the Church of Scientology. > > So I’ve begun reading "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health". > > The book that started it all. > > Yeah, I know, it’s said to be a cult by numerous and reputable sources. > > I’m also well aware that it’s endorsed by John Travolta and Tom Cruise > > wich should turn anyone’s bullshit radar in a second but…so far I’ve > > read 13 pages and it’s interesting. > > I downloaded it with e-mule, along with some other of Hubbard’s > > (founder of the church) books. You could give it a try, too. It can’t > > be worst that the stuff some regulars usually post. > > *runs for cover before the flames begin* > I’m kind of hoping you’re serious here, although I doubt you are.  But > the older I get the more sympathetic I get to the idea that if a secular > version of reality isn’t doing it for you, you should try something else > if you’re able.

Contrariwise, as I get older, I become increasingly convinced that religion, and irrationality in general, are bad for humanity in the long run.  I used to think that religion was an acceptable last resort for people who can’t deal with the existential angst of a secular universe; but now I think religion doesn’t even generally offer that. Some people insist on exploring "spirituality", or our "mystical side," etc., and that’s fine.  I do think our consciousness is deeply mysterious and worth exploring.  But religion just leads us to bad choices, and ignorance, too often.

Response:

you can read an article, and short thread about scientology here: http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51756 They believe in Aliens and Reincarnation, and that you should pay them thousands of dollars to cleanse your soul.

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"Gray Loser" <gray_lo…@hotmail.com> wrote in news:1124442348.281743.165030@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com: >> I’m kind of hoping you’re serious here, although I doubt you are. >> But the older I get the more sympathetic I get to the idea that if a >> secular version of reality isn’t doing it for you, you should try >> something else if you’re able. > Contrariwise, as I get older, I become increasingly convinced that > religion, and irrationality in general, are bad for humanity in the > long run.  I used to think that religion was an acceptable last resort > for people who can’t deal with the existential angst of a secular > universe; but now I think religion doesn’t even generally offer that. > Some people insist on exploring "spirituality", or our "mystical > side," etc., and that’s fine.  I do think our consciousness is deeply > mysterious and worth exploring.  But religion just leads us to bad > choices, and ignorance, too often.

I don’t even know if secular people are capable of having enough children to support a population.  (I don’t know if it’s true, but if the increasing trend toward Creationsism is due to natural selection, that’s a pretty funny thought.) The Bible, of course, is filled with positively disgusting values.   Nobody really takes it at face value though, or else we couldn’t have a modern civilization.  However, I think many people really do act better because they believe some big dude will burn them or reward them accordingly.

Response:

Mad Mambo Master of Macedonia <n…@newb.com> wrote in news:Xns96B663891279Fnewbnewbcom@68.6.19.6: > "Lobsterboy" <lobsterboy_2…@yahoo.es> wrote in > news:1124377241.693962.208310@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com: >> So I’ve begun reading "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental >> Health". > Dude: ANYONE can write a book that has something in it that might be > true or at least sound likely. Self-help books can’t change > you–you’re theonly one who can do it, and that involves *suffering*.

Or at least, lots of effort.

Response:

Mxsmanic <mxsma…@gmail.com> wrote in news:cgsag194jkffhvdtroh6vj3e6ljn1rd29e@4ax.com: > Jim Winters writes: >> Psychiatrists have the power to commit people to hospitals against >> their will, to force them to take medication, or to testify as to their >> mental state in a court of law. Is it so hard to believe that some >> psychiatrists might try to use these powers in a corrupt way? > MDs in general have similar powers.  There is abuse among both groups. > However, that doesn’t negate the utility of psychiatric medicine, > which benefits a great many people.

It’s actually pretty hard these days to commit someone, whether it might benefit them or not.  The advent of psychotropics which actually work, along with better public awareness of the horrors of the ’snake pit’, and the fact that psychosurgery has fallen into disrepute, has eliminated many of the problems of the past.  On the other hand…people who are dangerous sometimes can’t be committed, mentally ill people end up in prison instead of a mental ward, and community services which are supposed to support them in the community are generally poorly funded. —  "But," he added, "I think it’s also important for me to go on with my life, to keep a balanced life." George The-Buck-Stops-Elsewhere Bush.

Response:

It could certianly help relieve some of the burden in your wallet.

Response:

Well scientology’s mission is to brainwash you and make them give you all your money.  Being shy isn’t on their list of priorities, but I’m sure if you ask they will instantly tell you that they can "cure" you of it.  Of course, they say they can cure anything – cancer, AIDS, MS, head injuries, etc…. Scientology doesn’t mind preying on the mentally ill and taking their money – but once your out of money they will have nothing to do with you.  If you have money and exhibit signs of mental illness they will either lock you up in isolation until you’re dead (see Lisa McPherson) or broke. Sane people go insane after becoming involved in scientology so if you have any type of instability or mental health issues you should stay very far far far away because Scieno will only compound them a hundred fold – just ask ARS’s busiest pro-scieno poster Barbara Schwartz.  Or better yet read her posts about radio controlled bacteria to get a clear picture of the combination of mental illness and scientology. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -August Pamplona wrote: > Lobsterboy wrote: > > After reading dozens of self-help books and thousands of post at ASS > > and several other forums, and not having found almost anything that > > could help, I’m ready to give a shot to the Church of Scientology. > > So I’ve begun reading "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health". > > The book that started it all. > > Yeah, I know, it’s said to be a cult by numerous and reputable sources. > > I’m also well aware that it’s endorsed by John Travolta and Tom Cruise > > wich should turn anyone’s bullshit radar in a second but…so far I’ve > > read 13 pages and it’s interesting. > > I downloaded it with e-mule, along with some other of Hubbard’s > > (founder of the church) books. You could give it a try, too. It can’t > > be worst that the stuff some regulars usually post. > > *runs for cover before the flames begin* >          No comments. I just wanted to add a crosspost to > alt.religion.scientology. > August Pamplona > — > Women bring men they like tasks in much the same > way cats put dead mice on their owner’s pillows. > – Lola on a.s.s. > a.a. # 1811 apatriot #20 Eater of smut > Proud member of the reality-based community. > The address in this message’s ‘From’ field, in accordance with > individual.net’s TOS, is real. However, almost all messages > reaching this address are deleted without human intervention. > In other words, if you e-mail me there, I will not receive your message. > To make sure that e-mail messages actually reach me, > make sure that my e-mail address is not hot.

Response:

Lobsterboy wrote: > After reading dozens of self-help books and thousands of post at ASS > and several other forums, and not having found almost anything that > could help, I’m ready to give a shot to the Church of Scientology.

I knew a guy who was briefly into Scientology.  He was also "ready to give it a shot" at first, and attended a few sessions, before realizing the whole thing was a total fucking scam. Read a few of Hubbard’s more notorious quotes to get an idea of his motivations for starting up his wacko little "church." > So I’ve begun reading "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health". > The book that started it all. > Yeah, I know, it’s said to be a cult by numerous and reputable sources. > I’m also well aware that it’s endorsed by John Travolta and Tom Cruise

Roman Catholicism is endorsed by a billion people worldwide, yet it is still utter crap. > wich should turn anyone’s bullshit radar in a second but…so far I’ve > read 13 pages and it’s interesting.

Utter bullshit has to be mixed with some plausible-sounding bullshit in order to work. I wouldn’t object so much to Scientologists if they were *only* con artists, but they are also thugs.

Response:

I’d love to know what caught your eye about Scientology of all things! – Michaela – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Lobsterboy wrote: > After reading dozens of self-help books and thousands of post at ASS > and several other forums, and not having found almost anything that > could help, I’m ready to give a shot to the Church of Scientology. > So I’ve begun reading "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental > Health". The book that started it all. > Yeah, I know, it’s said to be a cult by numerous and reputable > sources. I’m also well aware that it’s endorsed by John Travolta and > Tom Cruise wich should turn anyone’s bullshit radar in a second > but…so far I’ve read 13 pages and it’s interesting. > I downloaded it with e-mule, along with some other of Hubbard’s > (founder of the church) books. You could give it a try, too. It can’t > be worst that the stuff some regulars usually post. > *runs for cover before the flames begin*

–

Response:

Jim Winters writes: > Anyone know any celebrities who are NOT scientologists who have spoken > out against the very real danger of psychiatric abuse?

Psychiatric abuse is a non-problem.  Psychiatrists are simply medical doctors who attempt to treat mental illnesses medically.  With many mental illnesses (psychosis, OCD, depression, etc.) they achieve quite a significant degree of success. — Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Response:

Lobsterboy wrote: > After reading dozens of self-help books and thousands of post at ASS > and several other forums, and not having found almost anything that > could help, I’m ready to give a shot to the Church of Scientology. > So I’ve begun reading "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health". > The book that started it all.

Go for it. But keep both eyes open. Anyone know any celebrities who are NOT scientologists who have spoken out against the very real danger of psychiatric abuse? I can’t think of any, which worries and saddens me.

Response:

mWarrior writes: > But while I’m here I’ve always wanted to know how this religion got it’s > name…wouldn’t ’scientology’ mean ‘the study of science’. What up with > that?

Scientology wasn’t originally a religion.  It became one in order to benefit from tax exemptions. — Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Response:

This doesn’t even make gramatical sense to me, much less have a ring of coherence.  Care to rephrase?  Since you decided to go through the trouble of cross-posting it might as well be something we can understand.

Response:

TinyArm…@gmail.com wrote: > This doesn’t even make gramatical sense to me, much less have a ring of > coherence.  Care to rephrase?  Since you decided to go through the > trouble of cross-posting it might as well be something we can > understand.

He was wondering if Scientology could help with shyness and other mental problems. But while I’m here I’ve always wanted to know how this religion got it’s name…wouldn’t ’scientology’ mean ‘the study of science’. What up with that?

Response:

> But while I’m here I’ve always wanted to know how this religion got it’s > name…wouldn’t ’scientology’ mean ‘the study of science’. What up with > that?

The cult organization wants its adherants to believe that Science is what scientology is about.  Hubbard believed himself to be performing research, while the rest of the world (save for his followers) knows he was only playing nutcase.  He performed not a shred of scientific experimentation, but still wanted to feel "sciency."  He couldn’t pass real curriculum, so he created his own playhouse.  Welcome to scientology! Ramona

Response:

>"He was wondering if Scientology could help with shyness and other mental >problems. >But while I’m here I’ve always wanted to know how this religion got it’s >name…wouldn’t ’scientology’ mean ‘the study of science’. What up with >that? "

Well scientology’s mission is to brainwash you and make them give you all your money.  Being shy isn’t on their list of priorities, but I’m sure if you ask they will instantly tell you that they can "cure" you of it.  Of course, they say they can cure anything – cancer, AIDS, MS, head injuries, etc…. Scientology doesn’t mind preying on the mentally ill and taking their money – but once your out of money they will have nothing to do with you.  If you have money and exhibit signs of mental illness they will either lock you up in isolation until you’re dead (see Lisa McPherson) or broke. Sane people go insane after becoming involved in scientology so if you have any type of instability or mental health issues you should stay very far far far away because Scieno will only compound them a hundred fold – just ask ARS’s busiest pro-scieno poster Barbara Schwartz.  Or better yet read her posts about radio controlled bacteria to get a clear picture of the combination of mental illness and scientology.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Lobsterboy wrote: > After reading dozens of self-help books and thousands of post at ASS > and several other forums, and not having found almost anything that > could help, I’m ready to give a shot to the Church of Scientology. > So I’ve begun reading "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health". > The book that started it all. > Yeah, I know, it’s said to be a cult by numerous and reputable sources. > I’m also well aware that it’s endorsed by John Travolta and Tom Cruise > wich should turn anyone’s bullshit radar in a second but…so far I’ve > read 13 pages and it’s interesting. > I downloaded it with e-mule, along with some other of Hubbard’s > (founder of the church) books. You could give it a try, too. It can’t > be worst that the stuff some regulars usually post. > *runs for cover before the flames begin*

         No comments. I just wanted to add a crosspost to alt.religion.scientology. August Pamplona — Women bring men they like tasks in much the same way cats put dead mice on their owner’s pillows. – Lola on a.s.s. a.a. # 1811 apatriot #20 Eater of smut Proud member of the reality-based community. The address in this message’s ‘From’ field, in accordance with individual.net’s TOS, is real. However, almost all messages reaching this address are deleted without human intervention. In other words, if you e-mail me there, I will not receive your message. To make sure that e-mail messages actually reach me, make sure that my e-mail address is not hot.

Response:

In news:1124377241.693962.208310@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, Lobsterboy <lobsterboy_2…@yahoo.es> wrote : – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> After reading dozens of self-help books and thousands of post at ASS > and several other forums, and not having found almost anything that > could help, I’m ready to give a shot to the Church of Scientology. > So I’ve begun reading "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental > Health". The book that started it all. > Yeah, I know, it’s said to be a cult by numerous and reputable > sources. I’m also well aware that it’s endorsed by John Travolta and > Tom Cruise wich should turn anyone’s bullshit radar in a second > but…so far I’ve read 13 pages and it’s interesting. > I downloaded it with e-mule, along with some other of Hubbard’s > (founder of the church) books. You could give it a try, too. It can’t > be worst that the stuff some regulars usually post. > *runs for cover before the flames begin*

    what does it say?

Response:

"Lobsterboy" <lobsterboy_2…@yahoo.es> wrote in news:1124377241.693962.208310@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> After reading dozens of self-help books and thousands of post at ASS > and several other forums, and not having found almost anything that > could help, I’m ready to give a shot to the Church of Scientology. > So I’ve begun reading "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health". > The book that started it all. > Yeah, I know, it’s said to be a cult by numerous and reputable sources. > I’m also well aware that it’s endorsed by John Travolta and Tom Cruise > wich should turn anyone’s bullshit radar in a second but…so far I’ve > read 13 pages and it’s interesting. > I downloaded it with e-mule, along with some other of Hubbard’s > (founder of the church) books. You could give it a try, too. It can’t > be worst that the stuff some regulars usually post. > *runs for cover before the flames begin*

I’m kind of hoping you’re serious here, although I doubt you are.  But the older I get the more sympathetic I get to the idea that if a secular version of reality isn’t doing it for you, you should try something else if you’re able.

Response:

After reading dozens of self-help books and thousands of post at ASS and several other forums, and not having found almost anything that could help, I’m ready to give a shot to the Church of Scientology. So I’ve begun reading "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health". The book that started it all. Yeah, I know, it’s said to be a cult by numerous and reputable sources. I’m also well aware that it’s endorsed by John Travolta and Tom Cruise wich should turn anyone’s bullshit radar in a second but…so far I’ve read 13 pages and it’s interesting. I downloaded it with e-mule, along with some other of Hubbard’s (founder of the church) books. You could give it a try, too. It can’t be worst that the stuff some regulars usually post. *runs for cover before the flames begin*

Response:

"Lobsterboy" <lobsterboy_2…@yahoo.es> wrote in news:1124377241.693962.208310@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com: > So I’ve begun reading "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health".

Dude: ANYONE can write a book that has something in it that might be true or at least sound likely. Self-help books can’t change you–you’re theonly one who can do it, and that involves *suffering*.  If you want to turn responsiblity for this task over to someone else, then join the Catholic Church.  At least they do some good things like feed poor people or something.  So I’ve heard, anyway.  Or send your money to United Way.   Instead of giving your money to an evil cult, why not give it to me? I could really use a T1 line and a high definition player with a terabyte or so of storage. —  "But," he added, "I think it’s also important for me to go on with my life, to keep a balanced life." George The-Buck-Stops-Elsewhere Bush.

Response:

In news:Xns96B663891279Fnewbnewbcom@68.6.19.6, Mad Mambo Master of Macedonia <n…@newb.com> wrote : > "Lobsterboy" <lobsterboy_2…@yahoo.es> wrote in > news:1124377241.693962.208310@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com: > > So I’ve begun reading "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental > > Health". > Dude: ANYONE can write a book that has something in it that might be > true or at least sound likely. Self-help books can’t change you > –you’re theonly one who can do it, and that involves *suffering*.

    Now *this* is the Christian church, here…

Response:

Question:

Islam Our Choice If this doesn’t say it all..nothing does Islam will replace collapsing Amerikan empire Warning there are Jewish forgers and trolls amongst us, proceed with caution

Christianity…OUR CHOICE..

Response:

If this doesn’t say it all..nothing does Islam will replace collapsing Amerikan empire Warning there are Jewish forgers and trolls amongst us, proceed with

caution I thought that you said Hindus last time. Which is it? Does your social worker know that you are using her PC? he is totally confused….typical raghead

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Islam Our Choice Stories of New Muslims This page is built on the shoulders of those people who have volunteered their personal stories of how they entered Islam. If you, the reader, are open to the possibility that Allah, the Creator, has given you clear evidence to accept Him and His message of Islam, then read these stories. From different backgrounds, and different experiences, you just might find someone here who had the same questions and doubts that you may have. Many of these people have endured against tremendous obstacles, including parental opposition, despair with other religions, being blind, and being lied to about the true nature of Islam. Click here to read http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/newmuslims/

If this doesn’t say it all..nothing does Islam will replace collapsing Amerikan empire Warning there are Jewish forgers and trolls amongst us, proceed with caution

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Islam Our Choice Stories of New Muslims This page is built on the shoulders of those people who have volunteered their personal stories of how they entered Islam. If you, the reader, are open to the possibility that Allah, the Creator, has given you clear evidence to accept Him and His message of Islam, then read these stories. From different backgrounds, and different experiences, you just might find someone here who had the same questions and doubts that you may have. Many of these people have endured against tremendous obstacles, including parental opposition, despair with other religions, being blind, and being lied to about the true nature of Islam. Click here to read http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/newmuslims/ If this doesn’t say it all..nothing does Islam will replace collapsing Amerikan empire Warning there are Jewish forgers and trolls amongst us, proceed with caution

I thought that you said Hindus last time. Which is it? Does your social worker know that you are using her PC?

Response:

Odd, really, how the word "choice" can be on the same page with the word "Islam" since they do not go together at all.  

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Islam Our Choice Stories of New Muslims This page is built on the shoulders of those people who have volunteered their personal stories of how they entered Islam. If you, the reader, are open to the possibility that Allah, the Creator, has given you clear evidence to accept Him and His message of Islam, then read these stories. From different backgrounds, and different experiences, you just might find someone here who had the same questions and doubts that you may have. Many of these people have endured against tremendous obstacles, including parental opposition, despair with other religions, being blind, and being lied to about the true nature of Islam. Click here to read http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/newmuslims/

If this doesn’t say it all..nothing does Islam will replace collapsing Amerikan empire

Response:

Islam Our Choice Stories of New Muslims This page is built on the shoulders of those people who have volunteered their personal stories of how they entered Islam. If you, the reader, are open to the possibility that Allah, the Creator, has given you clear evidence to accept Him and His message of Islam, then read these stories. From different backgrounds, and different experiences, you just might find someone here who had the same questions and doubts that you may have. Many of these people have endured against tremendous obstacles, including parental opposition, despair with other religions, being blind, and being lied to about the true nature of Islam. Click here to read http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/newmuslims/

Response:

YOU’RE AN IGNORANT FOOL. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Islam Our Choice Stories of New Muslims This page is built on the shoulders of those people who have volunteered their personal stories of how they entered Islam. If you, the reader, are open to the possibility that Allah, the Creator, has given you clear evidence to accept Him and His message of Islam, then read these stories. From different backgrounds, and different experiences, you just might find someone here who had the same questions and doubts that you may have. Many of these people have endured against tremendous obstacles, including parental opposition, despair with other religions, being blind, and being lied to about the true nature of Islam. Click here to read http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/newmuslims/

Response:

Question:

Here another Forger Faris Jawad!!! The headers don’t lie….

But Tarzan, you should know that there was a newsgroup Faris Jawad who came before the Faris Jawad you mistakenly call the original. Ask Cheetah, he’ll tell you.

Response:

THE AGENDA OF ISLAM – A WAR BETWEEN CIVILIZATIONS

If that’s what the asslifters want, they’ll get it, only it won’t be a war, it’ll be the Mother of all Ethnic Cleansings —

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Political Framework of Islam By IOL  Team The political system of Islam is based on the three principles of Tawheed (Oneness of Allah), risalah (prophethood) and khilafah (humans’ moral responsibility). Tawheed means that Allah (God) alone is the One and Only Creator, Sustainer and Master of the universe. He alone has the right to command or forbid. Worship and obedience are due to Him alone. Hence, it is not for us to set the ethical and moral codes or invent our frames of reference, though every nation, group or individual is entitled to contextualize Allah’s commandments and guidance that were revealed in succeeding religious messages within their own time and space; hence religious devotion is a dynamic and not a static condition. This principle of the Oneness of Allah does not contradict the concept of the legal and political sovereignty of the political community; hence the different models of Islamic democratic governance through Islamic history. The risalah is the message of the prophets. Islam is the last revealed religion and the Qur’an is the last testament. Muslims believe in the previous messengers and their messages and their original and authentic Holy Books. The Qur’an lays down the broad principles on which human life should be based universally, as it is the last revealed message from Allah, and Muhammad, the Prophet of Allah, established a model system of Islamic life in accordance with these principles. The combination of these two elements – Tawheed and risalah – is called the  Shari ‘ah (Law). Khilafah means representation. Humans – both men and women – according to Islam, are the representatives of Allah on earth, His vicegerents. To illustrate what the previous notions mean, let us take the example of an estate of yours which someone else has been appointed to administer. There are four conditions in this relation: First, the real ownership of the estate remains vested in you and not in the administrator; second, he administers your property directly in accordance with your instructions; third, he exercises his authority within the limits prescribed by you; and fourth, in the administration of the trust he executes your will and fulfills your intentions and not his own. Any representative who does not fulfill these four conditions will be abusing his authority and breaking the covenant which was implied in the concept of delegation. This is exactly what Islam means when it affirms that man is the representative (khalifah) of Allah on earth. Hence, these four conditions are also involved in the concept of khalifah. The state that is established in accordance with this political theory will, in fact, be a caliphate under the sovereignty of Allah. It should rule with the power of the people in accordance with the principles of justice and welfare. Such a society carries the responsibility of the khilafah as a whole, and each one of its individuals shares in it. Hence the form of Islamic government might be called theo-democracy, a combination fully different from the Western historical experience of the relation between church and state. http://islamonline.net/english/introducingislam/topic08.shtml

Islamic law and order

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – THE AGENDA OF ISLAM – A WAR BETWEEN CIVILIZATIONS by Dr. Maurice Bucaille There is no Fundamental Islam "Fundamentalism" is a word that came from the heart of the Christian religion. It means faith that goes by the word of the Bible. Fundamental Christianity, or going with the Bible, does not mean going around and killing people. There is no fundamental Islam. There is only Islam full stop. The question is how the Koran is interpreted. All of a sudden we see that the greatest interpreters of Islam are politicians in the western world. They know better than all the speakers in the mosques, all those who deliver terrible sermons against anything that is either Christian or Jewish. These western politicians know that there is good Islam and bad Islam. They know even how to differentiate between the two, except that none of them know how to read a word of Arabic. The Language of Islam You see, so much is covered by politically correct language that, in fact, the truth has been lost. For example, when we speak about Islam in the west, we try to use our own language and terminology. We speak about Islam in terms of democracy and fundamentalism, in terms of parliamentarism and all kinds of terms, which we take from our own dictionary. One of my professors and one of the greatest orientalists in the world says that doing this is like a cricket reporter describing a cricket game in baseball terms. We cannot use for one culture or civilization the language of another. For Islam, you’ve got to use the language of Islam. Driving Principles of Islam Let me explain the principles that are driving the religion of Islam. Of course, every Moslem has to acknowledge the fact that there is only one God. But it’s not enough to say that there is only one God. A Moslem has to acknowledge the fact that there is one God and Mohammed is his prophet. These are the fundamentals of the religion that without them, one cannot be a Moslem. But beyond that, Islam is a civilization. It is a religion that gave first and foremost a wide and unique legal system that engulfs the individual, society and nations with rules of behaviour. If you are Moslem, you have to behave according to the rules of Islam which are set down in the Koran and which are very different than the teachings of the Bible. The Bible Let me explain the difference. The Bible is the creation of the spirit of a nation over a very, very long period, if we talk from the point of view of the scholar, and let me remain scholarly. But there is one thing that is important in the Bible. It leads to salvation. It leads to salvation in two ways. In Judaism, it leads to national salvation – not just a nation that wants to have a state, but a nation that wants to serve God. That’s the idea behind the Hebrew text of the Bible. The New Testament that took the Hebrew Bible moves us toward personal salvation. So we have got these two kinds of salvation, which, from time to time, meet each other. But the key word is salvation. Personal salvation means that each individual is looked after by God, Himself, who leads a person through His word to salvation. This is the idea in the Bible, whether we are talking about the Old or the New Testament. All of the laws in the Bible, even to the minutest ones, are, in fact directed toward this fact of salvation. Secondly, there is another point in the Bible, which is highly important. This is the idea that man was created in the image of God. Therefore, you don’t just walk around and obliterate the image of God. Many people, of course, used Biblical rules and turned them upside down. History has seen a lot of massacres in the name of God and in the name of Jesus. But as religions, both Judaism and Christianity in their fundamentals speak about honoring the image of God and the hope of salvation. These are the two basic fundamentals. The Essence of Islam Now let’s move to the essence of Islam. Islam was born with the idea that it should rule the world. Let’s look, then, at the difference between these three religions. Judaism speaks about national salvation – namely that at the end of the story, when the world becomes a better place, Israel will be in its own land, ruled by its own king and serving God. Christianity speaks about the idea that every single person in the world can be saved from his sins, while Islam speaks about ruling the world. I can quote here in Arabic, but there is no point in quoting Arabic, so let me quote a verse in English. "Allah sent Mohammed with the true religion so that it should rule over all the religions." The idea, then, is not that the whole world would become a Moslem world at this time, but that the whole world would be subdued under the rule of Islam. When the Islamic empire was established in 634 AD, within seven years – 640 – the core of the empire was created. The rules that were taken from the Koran and from the tradition that was ascribed to the prophet Mohammed, were translated into a real legal system. Jews and Christians could live under Islam provided they paid poll tax and accepted Islamic superiority. Of course, they had to be humiliated. And Jews and Christians living under Islam are humiliated to this very day. Mohammed Held That All the Biblical Prophets Were Moslems Mohammed did accept the existence of all the Biblical prophets before him. However he also said that all these prophets were Moslems. Abraham was a Moslem. In fact, Adam himself was the first Moslem. Isaac and Jacob and David and Solomon and Moses and Jesus were all Moslems, and all of them had writings similar to the Koran. Therefore, world history is Islamic history because all the heroes of history were Moslems. Furthermore, Moslems accept the fact that each of these prophets brought with him some kind of a revelation. Moses, brought the Taurat, which is the Torah, and Jesus brought the Ingeel, which is the Evangelion or Gospel – namely the New Testament. The Bible versus the Koran Why then is the Bible not similar to the Koran? Mohammed explains that the Jews and Christians forged their books. Had they not been changed and forged, they would have been identical to the Koran. But because Christians and Jews do have some truth, Islam concedes that they cannot be completely destroyed by war [for now]. Nevertheless, the laws are very clear – Jews and Christians have no rights whatsoever to independent existence. They can live under Islamic rule provided they keep to the rules that Islam promulgates for them. Islamic Rule and Jihad What happens if Jews and Christians don’t want to live under the rules of Islam? Then Islam has to fight them and this fighting is called Jihad. Jihad means war against those people who don’t want to accept the Islamic superior rule. That’s jihad. They may be Jews; they may be Christians; they may be Polytheists. But since we don’t have too many Polytheists left, at least not in the Middle East – their war is against the Jews and Christians. A few days ago, I received a pamphlet that was distributed in the world by bin Laden. He calls for jihad against America as the leader of the Christian world, not because America is the supporter of Israel, but because Americans are desecrating Arabia with their filthy feet. There are Americans in Arabia where no Christians should be. In this pamphlet there is not a single word about Israel. Only that Americans are desecrating the home of the prophet. Two Houses The Koran sees the world as divided into two – one part which has come under Islamic rule and one part which is supposed to come under Islamic rule in the future. There is a division of the world which is very clear. Every single person who starts studying Islam knows it. The world is described as Dar al-Islam (the house of Islam) – that’s the place where Islam rules – and the other part which is called Dar al-Harb – the house of war. Not the "house of non-Muslims," but the "house of war." It is this house of war which has to be, at the end of time, conquered. The world will continue to be in the house of war until it comes under Islamic rule. This is the norm. Why? Because Allah says it’s so in the Koran. God has sent Mohammed with the true religion in order that the truth will overcome all other religions. Islamic Law Within the Islamic vision of this world, there are rules that govern the lives of the Moslems themselves, and these rules are very strict. In fundamentals, there are no differences between schools of law. However, there are four streams of factions within Islam with differences between them concerning the minutiae of the laws. All over the Islamic world, countries have favored one or another of these schools of laws. The strictest school of law is called Hanbali, mainly coming out of Saudi Arabia. There are no games there, no playing around with the meanings of words. If the Koran speaks about war, then it’s war. There are various perspectives in Islam with different interpretations over the centuries. There were good people that were very enlightened in Islam that tried to understand things differently. They even brought traditions from the mouth of the prophet that women and children should not be killed in war. These more liberal streams do exist, but there is one thing that is very important for us to remember. The Hanbali school of law is extremely strict, and today this is the school that is behind most of the terrorist powers. Even if we talk about the existence of other schools of Islamic law, when we’re talking

… read more »

Response:

THE AGENDA OF ISLAM – A WAR BETWEEN CIVILIZATIONS by Dr. Maurice Bucaille There is no Fundamental Islam The world will continue to be in the house of war until it comes under Islamic rule. This is the NORM. Why? Because Allah says it’s so in the Koran.  It’s not a war that stops. This war is there because it was created by Allah. Islam must be the ruler. This is a war that will not end.

In other words;  "KILL THE INFIDEL."  Great religion you have there. Believe as I do;  There is no option.

Response:

Here another Forger Faris Jawad!!! The headers don’t lie…. Islam will replace collapsing Amerikan empire Path: news.east.grouptelecom.net!newsfeed.east.grouptelecom.net!news.alt.net!news .glorb.com!postnews.google.com!g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.religion.islam,uk.religion.islam,alt.religion.islam.arabic,soc.culture. usa,aus.religion.islam Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 369 NNTP-Posting-Host: 4.159.212.24 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" GMT) User-Agent: G2/0.2 Injection-Info: g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com; posting-host=4.159.212.24;    posting-account=jZciEwwAAAAnGXx0ncanhugPixPUqq39 Xref: news.east.grouptelecom.net alt.religion.islam:319463 uk.religion.islam:92454 soc.culture.usa:520227 aus.religion.islam:42519

Response:

THE AGENDA OF ISLAM – A WAR BETWEEN CIVILIZATIONS by Dr. Maurice Bucaille There is no Fundamental Islam "Fundamentalism" is a word that came from the heart of the Christian religion. It means faith that goes by the word of the Bible. Fundamental Christianity, or going with the Bible, does not mean going around and killing people. There is no fundamental Islam. There is only Islam full stop. The question is how the Koran is interpreted. All of a sudden we see that the greatest interpreters of Islam are politicians in the western world. They know better than all the speakers in the mosques, all those who deliver terrible sermons against anything that is either Christian or Jewish. These western politicians know that there is good Islam and bad Islam. They know even how to differentiate between the two, except that none of them know how to read a word of Arabic. The Language of Islam You see, so much is covered by politically correct language that, in fact, the truth has been lost. For example, when we speak about Islam in the west, we try to use our own language and terminology. We speak about Islam in terms of democracy and fundamentalism, in terms of parliamentarism and all kinds of terms, which we take from our own dictionary. One of my professors and one of the greatest orientalists in the world says that doing this is like a cricket reporter describing a cricket game in baseball terms. We cannot use for one culture or civilization the language of another. For Islam, you’ve got to use the language of Islam. Driving Principles of Islam Let me explain the principles that are driving the religion of Islam. Of course, every Moslem has to acknowledge the fact that there is only one God. But it’s not enough to say that there is only one God. A Moslem has to acknowledge the fact that there is one God and Mohammed is his prophet. These are the fundamentals of the religion that without them, one cannot be a Moslem. But beyond that, Islam is a civilization. It is a religion that gave first and foremost a wide and unique legal system that engulfs the individual, society and nations with rules of behaviour. If you are Moslem, you have to behave according to the rules of Islam which are set down in the Koran and which are very different than the teachings of the Bible. The Bible Let me explain the difference. The Bible is the creation of the spirit of a nation over a very, very long period, if we talk from the point of view of the scholar, and let me remain scholarly. But there is one thing that is important in the Bible. It leads to salvation. It leads to salvation in two ways. In Judaism, it leads to national salvation – not just a nation that wants to have a state, but a nation that wants to serve God. That’s the idea behind the Hebrew text of the Bible. The New Testament that took the Hebrew Bible moves us toward personal salvation. So we have got these two kinds of salvation, which, from time to time, meet each other. But the key word is salvation. Personal salvation means that each individual is looked after by God, Himself, who leads a person through His word to salvation. This is the idea in the Bible, whether we are talking about the Old or the New Testament. All of the laws in the Bible, even to the minutest ones, are, in fact directed toward this fact of salvation. Secondly, there is another point in the Bible, which is highly important. This is the idea that man was created in the image of God. Therefore, you don’t just walk around and obliterate the image of God. Many people, of course, used Biblical rules and turned them upside down. History has seen a lot of massacres in the name of God and in the name of Jesus. But as religions, both Judaism and Christianity in their fundamentals speak about honoring the image of God and the hope of salvation. These are the two basic fundamentals. The Essence of Islam Now let’s move to the essence of Islam. Islam was born with the idea that it should rule the world. Let’s look, then, at the difference between these three religions. Judaism speaks about national salvation – namely that at the end of the story, when the world becomes a better place, Israel will be in its own land, ruled by its own king and serving God. Christianity speaks about the idea that every single person in the world can be saved from his sins, while Islam speaks about ruling the world. I can quote here in Arabic, but there is no point in quoting Arabic, so let me quote a verse in English. "Allah sent Mohammed with the true religion so that it should rule over all the religions." The idea, then, is not that the whole world would become a Moslem world at this time, but that the whole world would be subdued under the rule of Islam. When the Islamic empire was established in 634 AD, within seven years – 640 – the core of the empire was created. The rules that were taken from the Koran and from the tradition that was ascribed to the prophet Mohammed, were translated into a real legal system. Jews and Christians could live under Islam provided they paid poll tax and accepted Islamic superiority. Of course, they had to be humiliated. And Jews and Christians living under Islam are humiliated to this very day. Mohammed Held That All the Biblical Prophets Were Moslems Mohammed did accept the existence of all the Biblical prophets before him. However he also said that all these prophets were Moslems. Abraham was a Moslem. In fact, Adam himself was the first Moslem. Isaac and Jacob and David and Solomon and Moses and Jesus were all Moslems, and all of them had writings similar to the Koran. Therefore, world history is Islamic history because all the heroes of history were Moslems. Furthermore, Moslems accept the fact that each of these prophets brought with him some kind of a revelation. Moses, brought the Taurat, which is the Torah, and Jesus brought the Ingeel, which is the Evangelion or Gospel – namely the New Testament. The Bible versus the Koran Why then is the Bible not similar to the Koran? Mohammed explains that the Jews and Christians forged their books. Had they not been changed and forged, they would have been identical to the Koran. But because Christians and Jews do have some truth, Islam concedes that they cannot be completely destroyed by war [for now]. Nevertheless, the laws are very clear – Jews and Christians have no rights whatsoever to independent existence. They can live under Islamic rule provided they keep to the rules that Islam promulgates for them. Islamic Rule and Jihad What happens if Jews and Christians don’t want to live under the rules of Islam? Then Islam has to fight them and this fighting is called Jihad. Jihad means war against those people who don’t want to accept the Islamic superior rule. That’s jihad. They may be Jews; they may be Christians; they may be Polytheists. But since we don’t have too many Polytheists left, at least not in the Middle East – their war is against the Jews and Christians. A few days ago, I received a pamphlet that was distributed in the world by bin Laden. He calls for jihad against America as the leader of the Christian world, not because America is the supporter of Israel, but because Americans are desecrating Arabia with their filthy feet. There are Americans in Arabia where no Christians should be. In this pamphlet there is not a single word about Israel. Only that Americans are desecrating the home of the prophet. Two Houses The Koran sees the world as divided into two – one part which has come under Islamic rule and one part which is supposed to come under Islamic rule in the future. There is a division of the world which is very clear. Every single person who starts studying Islam knows it. The world is described as Dar al-Islam (the house of Islam) – that’s the place where Islam rules – and the other part which is called Dar al-Harb – the house of war. Not the "house of non-Muslims," but the "house of war." It is this house of war which has to be, at the end of time, conquered. The world will continue to be in the house of war until it comes under Islamic rule. This is the norm. Why? Because Allah says it’s so in the Koran. God has sent Mohammed with the true religion in order that the truth will overcome all other religions. Islamic Law Within the Islamic vision of this world, there are rules that govern the lives of the Moslems themselves, and these rules are very strict. In fundamentals, there are no differences between schools of law. However, there are four streams of factions within Islam with differences between them concerning the minutiae of the laws. All over the Islamic world, countries have favored one or another of these schools of laws. The strictest school of law is called Hanbali, mainly coming out of Saudi Arabia. There are no games there, no playing around with the meanings of words. If the Koran speaks about war, then it’s war. There are various perspectives in Islam with different interpretations over the centuries. There were good people that were very enlightened in Islam that tried to understand things differently. They even brought traditions from the mouth of the prophet that women and children should not be killed in war. These more liberal streams do exist, but there is one thing that is very important for us to remember. The Hanbali school of law is extremely strict, and today this is the school that is behind most of the terrorist powers. Even if we talk about the existence of other schools of Islamic law, when we’re talking about fighting against the Jews, or fighting against the Christian world led by America, it is the Hanbali school of law that is being followed. Islam and Territory This civilization created one very important, fundamental rule about territory. Any territory that comes under Islamic rule cannot be de-Islamized. Even if at one time or another, the [non-Moslem] enemy takes over the territory that was under Islamic rule, it is considered to be perpetually … read more »

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