Christianity QA

Question:

Yep, that’s absolutely correct. The Talmud Sanhedrin 98a says the son of David will come only in a generation that is completely righteous, or in a generation that is completely evil. However, there are other factors that G-d takes into account, as well. We can’t really grasp the Divine plan. Our job is to do what we humans are supposed to do, and G-d will worry about what he is supposed to do.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I do have a question for you: Under what circumstances do Jews believe the Messiah will appear? We are anxiously awaiting him every day. When he appears, we will certainly know about it, because the whole world will see the hand of G-d as he brings about true peace in the land. I had a rabbi tell a group of us who were visiting a synagogue that the Jews have two traditions regarding the messiah, both of which were honored equally.  One was that one day, G-d would look upon the world and say, "They have finally made a world good enough to send a messiah," and the other was that one day, G-d would look upon the world and say, "It’s finally hopeless, and the only thing that can save the world is the messiah, so it’s time to send one."  I thought those were both wonderful, particularly as they were given equal weight (according to him).  The first one, because it reminds to keep working toward a just and peaceful world; the second, because it inspires hope in the face of circumstances that would otherwise seem hopeless and overwhelming. Sunny

Response:

BTW, Why is God referred to as G-d?

We write it that way since there is a prohibition to erase G-d’s name. If the name was written with the complete spelling, we would run into a problem if someone threw out or defaced the paper on which it was written. To prevent any such problem, we play it safe and write it in some abbreviated or slightly altered form.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stargate,  His main point was to carry man’s sins in death and to be the first resurrected from death in order that someone who  accepted Him would be saved by having his sins bore by Jesus. This is difficult for a Jew to accept. Do you mean that one who is pious and righteous, and generous, but happens not to believe in Jesus because his family has a different tradition will go to hell? And one who commits terrible sins and crimes, but does believe in Jesus, will go to heaven? Sorry, that is grossly unfair. See my earlier post on why I should not accept what a stranger knocking at my door says about Jesus or any other person, when I would never trust this stranger with my credit card. My family I do trust, and we have no family tradition about Jesus.

Yes it can seem unfair on the surface but a deeper study of who God is and who we are in relation to him may change your mind on this.  First I want to quote the prophet Isiah  "HOLY HOLY HOLY IS THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY". Because God is such a Holy and  Just god that he must have wrath for anything that offends his holiness.  He did this with Adam and Eve.  In the garden when they sined and ate of the forebidden fruit God bannished them from his pressence, Now because of Adams sin we are all born into sin as well as we also all commit much sin in our daily lives.  This sin in our lives makes us objects of God’s wrath. But Christ came to take the wrath we deserve so that we can be pure before God. I think Isaiah 53 says it very well —- 53:1 Who has believed our message? To whom will the LORD reveal his saving power? 53:2 My servant grew up in the LORD’s presence like a tender green shoot, sprouting from a root in dry and sterile ground. There was nothing beautiful or majestic about his appearance, nothing to attract us to him. 53:3 He was despised and rejected – a man of sorrows, acquainted with bitterest grief. We turned our backs on him and looked the other way when he went by. He was despised, and we did not care. 53:4 Yet it was our weaknesses he carried; it was our sorrows F116 that weighed him down. And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God for his own sins! 53:5 But he was wounded and crushed for our sins. He was beaten that we might have peace. He was whipped, and we were healed! 53:5 But he was wounded and crushed for our sins. He was beaten that we might have peace. He was whipped, and we were healed! 53:6 All of us have strayed away like sheep. We have left God’s paths to follow our own. Yet the LORD laid on him the guilt and sins of us all. (this verse shows us that there are no righteous people, only Christ was a truly righteous person) 53:7 He was oppressed and treated harshly, yet he never said a word. He was led as a lamb to the slaughter. And as a sheep is silent before the shearers, he did not open his mouth. 53:8 From prison and trial they led him away to his death. But who among the people realized that he was dying for their sins – that he was suffering their punishment? 53:9 He had done no wrong, and he never deceived anyone. But he was buried like a criminal; he was put in a rich man’s grave. 53:10 But it was the LORD’s good plan to crush him and fill him with grief. Yet when his life is made an offering for sin, he will have a multitude of children, many heirs. He will enjoy a long life, and the LORD’s plan will prosper in his hands. 53:11 When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish, he will be satisfied. And because of what he has experienced, my righteous servant will make it possible for many to be counted righteous, for he will bear all their sins. 53:12 I will give him the honors of one who is mighty and great, because he exposed himself to death. He was counted among those who were sinners. He bore the sins of many and interceded for sinners

Response:

I do have a question for you: Under what circumstances do Jews believe the Messiah will appear?

We are anxiously awaiting him every day. When he appears, we will certainly know about it, because the whole world will see the hand of G-d as he brings about true peace in the land.

Response:

I do have a question for you: Under what circumstances do Jews believe the Messiah will appear? We are anxiously awaiting him every day. When he appears, we will certainly know about it, because the whole world will see the hand of G-d as he brings about true peace in the land.

I had a rabbi tell a group of us who were visiting a synagogue that the Jews have two traditions regarding the messiah, both of which were honored equally.  One was that one day, G-d would look upon the world and say, "They have finally made a world good enough to send a messiah," and the other was that one day, G-d would look upon the world and say, "It’s finally hopeless, and the only thing that can save the world is the messiah, so it’s time to send one."  I thought those were both wonderful, particularly as they were given equal weight (according to him).  The first one, because it reminds to keep working toward a just and peaceful world; the second, because it inspires hope in the face of circumstances that would otherwise seem hopeless and overwhelming. Sunny

Response:

Someone, Thanks for sharing. Based on your insights in this thread, I think my spiritual views are closer to Jewish thought than modern Christianity. I tend to believe than our mission, as human beings, is to work towards creating heaven on earth, which Jesus (and perhaps subsequent spiritual founders) set into motion 2,000+ years ago. It’s beautiful to believe that doing so will be the catalyst for the entire world to simultaneously see/experience God. BTW, Why is God referred to as G-d? — Passionately, Brian Norris Transforming Lives and Organizations Through the Power of Passion & Positivity http://www.briannorris.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But then I would ask this, why is it fair that cananites should die because they don’t believe and those who killed them get to go to heaven? Seems the same to me, only a different group of people got killed off. Not to mention, since they were killed because they didn’t believe and "act right", doesn’t that make it a religion-based attack? Why is it that the good Cananites do not get to go to heaven? Just because they didn’t believe in Yahweh? After all, they had their own tradition, just like you. Hi vkd, the difference is that the Canaanites were not punished for their beliefs. They were punished for their actions. Look at Deuteronomy 12,31 which states that they would burn their children in fire for the sake of their G-d as part of some religious ritual. (Kind of like the present day Islamic suicide bombers whose parents train them to be martyrs.) See also Deut 9, 5 where G-d says that you Jews should not think it is because of your righteousness and the straightness of your hearts that I am driving these people out of the land, it is because of the wickedness of the inhabitants, and because I want to keep my promise to your forefathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And again in verse 6 G-d says it is not because of your (Jews) righteousness that I am giving you this nice land because you are a stiff necked nation. We see that we Jews have no right to be arrogant about the land, for we really don’t deserve it, but we also see how terribly wicked these Canaanite people must have been. Now, even if they only had worshipped idols, that is not merely a wrong belief. It means that they are showing a total lack of gratitude to G-d for creating them, and providing them with food, and health, all their needs. This is similar to a child who rebels against his parents after all they have done, and denies their very existence, refuses to thank them and fails to visit. A terrible moral calamity. But in fact they did much worse. As for your question about what if there were potentially any righteous Canaanites at the time, it is an excellent question. My inkling is that the situtaion is similar to what happened in Sodom described in Genesis 18, 23 where Abraham proceeds to bargain with G-d and complains "How can you destroy the righteous people along with the wicked? Maybe there are 50, or perhaps 40, 30, 20, 10 righteous individuals in the city? And G-d agreed he would not destroy the city if 10 could be found. But 10 were not to be found. So here too, there also were probably few righteous people. In addition, when people make a bad decision to live among evil people, they sometimes suffer on their account, as is happening now in Afghanistan where not all bombs and bullets hit the intended targets, but sometimes hit civilians. The Talmud has a principle, "Woe to an evil person, and woe to his neighbor." I also have a different question for you: what makes one a jew? A Jew is any person born to a Jewish mother, or who converts. We discourage converts, because one would have to be a mishugeh (nutcase) to want to be a Jew with all the additional religious obligations, and with all the anti-semitism that has been perpetrated. However, if one insists, we accept him with open arms into the family.

Response:

But then I would ask this, why is it fair that cananites should die because they don’t believe and those who killed them get to go to heaven? Seems the same to me, only a different group of people got killed off. Not to mention, since they were killed because they didn’t believe and "act right", doesn’t that make it a religion-based attack? Why is it that the good Cananites do not get to go to heaven? Just because they didn’t believe in Yahweh? After all, they had their own tradition, just like you.

Hi vkd, the difference is that the Canaanites were not punished for their beliefs. They were punished for their actions. Look at Deuteronomy 12,31 which states that they would burn their children in fire for the sake of their G-d as part of some religious ritual. (Kind of like the present day Islamic suicide bombers whose parents train them to be martyrs.) See also Deut 9, 5 where G-d says that you Jews should not think it is because of your righteousness and the straightness of your hearts that I am driving these people out of the land, it is because of the wickedness of the inhabitants, and because I want to keep my promise to your forefathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And again in verse 6 G-d says it is not because of your (Jews) righteousness that I am giving you this nice land because you are a stiff necked nation. We see that we Jews have no right to be arrogant about the land, for we really don’t deserve it, but we also see how terribly wicked these Canaanite people must have been. Now, even if they only had worshipped idols, that is not merely a wrong belief. It means that they are showing a total lack of gratitude to G-d for creating them, and providing them with food, and health, all their needs. This is similar to a child who rebels against his parents after all they have done, and denies their very existence, refuses to thank them and fails to visit. A terrible moral calamity. But in fact they did much worse. As for your question about what if there were potentially any righteous Canaanites at the time, it is an excellent question. My inkling is that the situtaion is similar to what happened in Sodom described in Genesis 18, 23 where Abraham proceeds to bargain with G-d and complains "How can you destroy the righteous people along with the wicked? Maybe there are 50, or perhaps 40, 30, 20, 10 righteous individuals in the city? And G-d agreed he would not destroy the city if 10 could be found. But 10 were not to be found. So here too, there also were probably few righteous people. In addition, when people make a bad decision to live among evil people, they sometimes suffer on their account, as is happening now in Afghanistan where not all bombs and bullets hit the intended targets, but sometimes hit civilians. The Talmud has a principle, "Woe to an evil person, and woe to his neighbor." I also have a different question for you: what makes one a jew?

A Jew is any person born to a Jewish mother, or who converts. We discourage converts, because one would have to be a mishugeh (nutcase) to want to be a Jew with all the additional religious obligations, and with all the anti-semitism that has been perpetrated. However, if one insists, we accept him with open arms into the family.

Response:

Stargate,  His main point was to carry man’s sins in death and to be the first resurrected from death in order that someone who  accepted Him would be saved by having his sins bore by Jesus.

This is difficult for a Jew to accept. Do you mean that one who is pious and righteous, and generous, but happens not to believe in Jesus because his family has a different tradition will go to hell? And one who commits terrible sins and crimes, but does believe in Jesus, will go to heaven? Sorry, that is grossly unfair. See my earlier post on why I should not accept what a stranger knocking at my door says about Jesus or any other person, when I would never trust this stranger with my credit card. My family I do trust, and we have no family tradition about Jesus. That someone pointed to Talmud as being the OT is incorrect.

Jews believe that the Torah has 2 components, the written law (scripture, i.e., the Old Testament) and the oral law or Talmud, which is the interpretation and derivations and debates on the particulars of the written law. They are both equal, and one is incomprehensible without the other.

Response:

Hi Someone, I don’t think you should convert. Christ was born a Jew and died a Jew. He never intended to start an entirely new faith. Rather, I think his goal was to rid the temples of the money-changers and restore Judaism to its primitive splendor. Christianity was merged with the Greek and Roman Mythologies after Christ died by Paul (formerly Saul). Some historians believe that Christ’s brother James, headed the Essene Community (Quaram?), which sought to preserve the majority of Jewish Laws and practices. Because the Essene teachings were so contrarian to the practices of the day, the community members were executed. Plus, if it hadn’t been for Moses and the Passover traditions, hundreds of thousands of Jews would have been wiped out during the Plague in the Middle Ages. But, because Jewish homes were devoid of rat-attracting bread, the Jews were relatively unscathed. "Here O’ Israel the Lord our God is One God." Very simple. And the devil is only referred to in the Torah twice — giving us no one to blame but ourselves for our actions — Right on. As for Yahweh’s chosen people and Israel being every Jew’s birthright … I think the writers of the OT were masters at PR and spin Ultimately, Christ taught love, as did Moses and the other great spiritual leaders. God hasn’t stopped laughing at us for the past 2,000 years. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism. Too simple for our complex logic to comprehend. If your faith and spiritual values help you to stay focused on your personal path (and give you meaning), then no human has the right to tell you to convert. I do have a question for you: Under what circumstances do Jews believe the Messiah will appear? — Passionately, Brian Norris Transforming Lives and Organizations Through the Power of Passion & Positivity  http://www.briannorris.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If turning the other cheek means letting him slap me again, I disagree that there is virtue in that. If it means turning away and overlooking and forgiving it, then this is found in numerous places in Judaic sources. "Don’t take revenge and don’t bear a grudge…" Leviticus 19,18 "Rava said: Anyone who overlooks an affront, G-d will overlook his own sins." Talmud Rosh Hashanah 17a, Yoma 23b, Yoma 87b, Megilla 28a. "The Rabbis taught: Those who are able to be mistreated, but won’t mistreat others, who are are able to be insulted without answering back, who serve G-d with love, and who are happy even when facing difficult situations, of them the verse (Judges 5) says, `Those who love G-d are mightier than the sun as it comes out in all its strength.’ " PS. I am not out to knock someone else’s religion. However, when the poster states that I should convert to another religion, I have a right to ask what improvements it has made over my current religion. And in fact there aren’t any. Sorry, turning the other cheek is baloney, not morality. Do you mean we should let the terrorists take out 2 more skyscrapers instead of fighting them? Hang on a minute, please.  Your request was: 1) Please list a single moral concept or virtuous practice found in Islam or Christianity which was not pre-dated by and/or copied from Judaism Turning the cheek is a moral concept and/or virtuous practice within the context of the teachings of Jesus.  You got what you asked for. Now, as to the specifics of it being baloney, the emphasis of the admonitions in the gospels concern *personal* behavior, not institutional or national or tribal.  Where the Torah is more concerned with the relationship of G-d and the nation of Israel, the focus narrows in the gospels to a focus on the relationship between the individual and G-d, and the individual personal responsibility of each person in that regard.  I can no more "turn the other cheek" for the acts of September 11 than you can.  I can, however, on an individual level, recognize a few things — most of which do indeed stem from Judaism.  Basically, I am responsible for *my* actions alone, and if *my* actions continue a cycle of violence that causes me to look on my neighbor as anything less than a fellow human, I bear my own share of culpability, however badly *they’re* behaving, and however much I may think they deserve whacking.

Response:

Jesus said don’t pray in the open like the Pharisees to point attention to your "piety."  THAT is a new moral angle brought up by Jesus.

Is a synagogue considered in the open? What about a Church? True, the Talmud speaks of a class of individuals, as well, who flaunt their religiosity in public, and are considered windbags, but prayer must be done 3 times a day no matter where one finds himself. It is best in private, but if stuck with no place to go, must still pray. Give in secret is another.  Don’t let people know who and what you have given.  Nowhere in the OT.

Not true. In Proverbs 21,14. Many places in Talmud. Give up your riches and follow his example is another, which also fits into the fact that he also said you can’t serve God AND money and that you have to make a choice.  Not in the OT.

Psalms 119, 72 King David writes, "Better for me the Torah of your mouth than thousands of gold and silver pieces. In Talmud  Ethics of the Fathers 6, 9, Rabbi Yossi ben Kisma said, "Even if they give me all the money in the world, I will only live in a city of Torah study." Love and pray for your enemies.  Bless the people who curse you.  Do good to them who use and persecute you. Forgive without end.

Already discussed forgiveness and not holding a grudge. Don’t swear… and just say yes or no.  Which btw, people swear on the bible in court rooms.  It’s kind of like a joke.  I really don’t think most people understand Jesus’ preaching or just choose  the easy ones or the ones they like.

In Judaism, swearing only to be done in certain cases, such as when only one witness observed a loan. The defendant may swear that he doesn’t owe money and go free. (If 2 witnesses saw loan, he would not have that option, and would have to pay.) If no one saw loan, he can simply deny the claim and go free with no oath. Yet the Talmud says that many would rather pay than make the oath, even when true, so as not to have to take the name of G-d. What you do to the least of people it is as if you did it to God.

Over and over in the OT and Talmud be kind to widows, orphans, poor and strangers in the land. Isaiah 57, 15, G-d dwells in the hearts of the downtrodden and broken. Don’t pray with repetitious prayers.

Jews pray minimum fixed formula 3 times daily, and are free to add as the need arises. Certain needs, such as health and sustenance and justice and peace are constant, so why should one not ask every day? Blasphemy the Holy Spirit (3rd presentation of God on earth)  stated as the ONLY unforgivable sin.  There is nothing about blaspheming the Holy Spirit on the OT.  I think the Jews don’t believe in the Holy Spirit. However, in Genesis, God says "Let us make man is OUR image, blah blah blah and the Spirit of God  blah blah blah.

Blaspehmy of G-d is terrible sin in Judaism. Don’t know difference between Holy Spirit and G-d. It is lawful to do certain work on the Sabbath that is needed for survival of self and other living things.

Aboslutely true in Judaism that preserving life takes precednce over all but 3 commandments, (Adultery, Idol Worship, Murder). One cannot save oneself by doing any of these. I may be wrong on this.  I won’t freak out if I am.  I don’t think there is anything about resurrection in the OT.  It was a debated issue between the Sadducees and Pharisees at the time because, if I remember right, there is no passage in the OT that says clearly that resurrection was God’s plan for people.

True, no explicit verse, but many hints. Such as the prohibition for committing suicide says that G-d will punish one who does so. How is that possible if there is no afterlife? Another hint: Psalms 31, 20 How great is the treasure which you have hidden for those who fear you. Talmud has long list of these. A cornerstone of Jewish belief, yet not explicit. Why? So that people will serve G-d for the beauty of that way of life, and not for reward. But, yes, there is a huge reward. Jews DIDN’T invent charity.  To claim that Jews have a patent on all forms of charity is disgusting to me as well as probably most other people. The idea of giving 2 things when someone asked for one is found nowhere in the OT.  It counts because it covers a greater requirement of charity not found in the OT.

Not claiming Jews invented charity. Just that it was not invented by Christianity. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jesus also went into a lot of detail of what the Kingdom of heaven was like and who would or wouldn’t enter. That the Kingdom of Heaven was within the person.  That there was no place you could point to (like a temple or church) and say there is God’s house. That God’s house was within the people who believe. That is NOT what enters a person’s body through the mouth(kosher food) but what comes out that defiles (blasphemy, covertness, pride, etc.) How you judge others will be the judgment made to you by God. No stoning (i.e. mob justice).  Let the man without sin cast the first stone. The greatest should serve the least.

Similar concepts in Judaism, many of which I already discussed. That salvation was by faith in Jesus/God and not man’s works, nothing earned but a gift.

Completely foreign to Judaism. This is set up so that you will need Jesus. As in my earlier post, Judaism belives that you earn your way by doing good or evil. No original sin hangs over the head of every newborn sending him to hell, unless he accepts Jesus, as in Christinaity. Rather, born with clean slate. You have free will to become the greatest of the great, or the worst of the worst. G-d is a fair judge, and knows what he can expect from a person and what is too much to expect. He understands that circumstances vary, and for some peopel it is easier than for others. The effort is the key, not the results. The advantage to the Jewish system is that you are not getting a handout, but earning your reward. You feel better when you know you worked for your accomplishments, then when it was handed to you. PREACH the message of God’s love to ALL people, that salvation was not just for the Jews (with many rules for how to proceed preaching the

message). As before, all mankind can be righteous or wicked depending on whether they keep the seven Noachide Laws listed in earlier post in this thread. Jews have 606 additional commandments such as keeping kosher, etc. Pain in neck to be a Jew. This is one reason we don’t seek converts. Okay, I’ll give you the golden rule.  It’s in Leviticus 18.  But "your neighbor" is not just another Jew but anybody even a pagan such as the example of Samaritan that Jesus gave.

In Talmud told of certain Rabbi that no one ever beat him to giving a cheerful greeting, including to a gentile. He was always the first to do so before the other person could have a chnace. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry, turning the other cheek is baloney, not morality. Do you mean we should let the terrorists take out 2 more skyscrapers instead of fighting them? Besides, the Christians including the Church and the Popes never practiced it anyway, and were responsible for quite a bit of violence through the ages. Charity is a major tenet of Judaism, and is found in the Torah (Old Testament) in many places. Love your neighbor as yourself, is a verse in the Torah (Leviticus), as well. Still waiting for an answer. If some one strike you turn the other cheek.  If a person ask of you something give him 2 of that thing.  Love your neighbor as yourself just to mention a few. Israel, as God requires you two witness Before you expect any Jews to consider converting, kindly answer the following simple questions: 1) Please list a single moral concept or virtuous practice found in Islam or Christianity which was not pre-dated by and/or copied from Judaism. Please do not include anything such as the obligation to believe that Mohammed was a prophet or that the Koran is divine, or that the New Testament says that Jesus is either the Messiah or God or the son of God or all three or whatever, since that is irrelevant to the question. I want a practice, not a belief.

Response:

No, "Someone" has a good point. So do you think there’s a distinct difference between not personally seeking revenge for a wrong and turning the other cheek? Turn the other cheek is not literal, as far as I can understand. It’s just a rewarding of the original tenet.

Then perhaps you misunderstood my comment.  When he dismissed it as being a moral altogether, I challenged that.  When he likened it to the Levitical passage and other commentary that says, "don’t seek revenge," I was agreeing with him.  That’s what the "straining at gnats" comment was about — that we were apparently contending about something we essentially agreed on. Though I wasn’t sure one would select religion for Options. vkd, what does that mean? Well, "Someone" was saying that in order to switch, he needs to know advantages of the other religion. It sounded like a car sales lot: Does yours have air conditioning? Well, mine does, so it’s better. You see what I mean?

Gotcha.  You confused me there for a minute. It is strange that every tenet of the "later" religion appears in the "former". Why strange?   Jesus was Jewish. Strange since it’s considered to be a whole different religion when it seems to be just a rewording of the earlier one, offering nothing extra.

Hm. I’m pretty sure Judaism is still waiting for a messiah. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – the same — and I’ll concede your quotes to prove the point that it has its origins in Judaism.  It’s passive resistance. Passive resistance? Whoever advocated that? Recently? Gandhi and MLK, to name two.  Trouble is, it kind of depends on _some_ civilization or humanity in the person you’re resisting.  Otherwise, you just end up dead. You obviously miss the point of both Gandhi’s and Dr King’s teachings. Even in the movie "Gandhi" there is a moment where one person says: "your passive resistence does not work". And Gandhi says "I have never advocated PASSIVE anything". It’s not PASSIVE; it’s Peaceful Nonviolent Noncooperation. It’s by no means PASSIVE. It’s very much active and deliberate. Neither did Martin Luther King ever advocate PASSIVE resistence. ACTIVE resistence though peaceful nonviolent means.

OKAY! Acts: 4:18  "So they called them and ordered them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus.  But Peter and John answered them, "Whether it is right in God’s sight to listen to you rather than to God, you must judge; for we cannot keep from speaking about what we have seen and heard." Acts 5:27-29 "When they had brought them, they had them stand before the council.  The high priest questioned them, saying, "We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name, yet here you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and you are determined to bring this man’s blood upon us." But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than human authority." Kind of like that? Sunny who is trolling vkd *just* a little bit

Response:

If turning the other cheek means letting him slap me again, I disagree that there is virtue in that. If it means turning away and overlooking and forgiving it, then this is found in numerous places in Judaic sources.

<laugh We might be straining at gnats here.  I think the gist of the idea is the same — and I’ll concede your quotes to prove the point that it has its origins in Judaism.  It’s passive resistance. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Don’t take revenge and don’t bear a grudge…" Leviticus 19,18 "Rava said: Anyone who overlooks an affront, G-d will overlook his own sins." Talmud Rosh Hashanah 17a, Yoma 23b, Yoma 87b, Megilla 28a. "The Rabbis taught: Those who are able to be mistreated, but won’t mistreat others, who are are able to be insulted without answering back, who serve G-d with love, and who are happy even when facing difficult situations, of them the verse (Judges 5) says, `Those who love G-d are mightier than the sun as it comes out in all its strength.’ " PS. I am not out to knock someone else’s religion. However, when the poster states that I should convert to another religion, I have a right to ask what improvements it has made over my current religion. And in fact there aren’t any.

Actually (just to haggle a little) the plain reality is that Jesus was Jewish, and his messages are fairly consistent with the prophets, and with the tradition (best I understand it).  The improvement would be, in terms of Christianity, opening the gate for those of non-Jewish heritage to be welcome.  Of course, we might well disagree if that’s an improvement — and it should also be pointed out that it was more Paul that carried the message to the gentiles than Jesus. I’m glad to meet you, Someone.  I’m always interested in informed perspective. Sunny – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry, turning the other cheek is baloney, not morality. Do you mean we should let the terrorists take out 2 more skyscrapers instead of fighting them? Hang on a minute, please.  Your request was: 1) Please list a single moral concept or virtuous practice found in Islam or Christianity which was not pre-dated by and/or copied from Judaism Turning the cheek is a moral concept and/or virtuous practice within the context of the teachings of Jesus.  You got what you asked for. Now, as to the specifics of it being baloney, the emphasis of the admonitions in the gospels concern *personal* behavior, not institutional or national or tribal.  Where the Torah is more concerned with the relationship of G-d and the nation of Israel, the focus narrows in the gospels to a focus on the relationship between the individual and G-d, and the individual personal responsibility of each person in that regard.  I can no more "turn the other cheek" for the acts of September 11 than you can.  I can, however, on an individual level, recognize a few things — most of which do indeed stem from Judaism.  Basically, I am responsible for *my* actions alone, and if *my* actions continue a cycle of violence that causes me to look on my neighbor as anything less than a fellow human, I bear my own share of culpability, however badly *they’re* behaving, and however much I may think they deserve whacking.

Response:

I’m glad to meet you, Someone.  I’m always interested in informed perspective.

Thank you very much for the compliment, a pleasure to meet you, as well.

Response:

I will conceed that I can not think of a single moral concept or virtuous practice found in Islam or Christianity that is not found in Judaism.  The real issue is that Christianity is not about morality, but about unrighteous people looking to the perfect righteousness of Christ.  Jewish prophecy fortold about the comming messiah and Jesus is this messiah.

True, we believe in the coming of the messiah, but we don’t believe that Jesus was the messiah. The world is too imperfect, and nothing has changed for the better since Jesus’s time, so there is no evidence that he accomplished any of the things that the messiah is supposed to do, such as bring peace on earth. In fact, his followers have done the opposite and brought many wars. I am not a christian because I follow some moral code, I am a christian because of the relationship i have with Christ Jesus and trust that the blood he shed on the cross will cover and pay for my transgressions against a holy G-d

I don’t want to demean your beliefs, but as a human being you can have a special relationship with G-d himself directly, without the need for an intermediary such as Jesus. I understand that you value Jesus’ suffering greatly, but did you ever think how many tens of thousands of Jews were slaughtered and burnt at the stake by the Church and suffered just as greatly for the sake of their beliefs? Why is that sacrifice not on a par with Jesus’? This doesn’t include the millions of Jews who died in the Holocaust at the hands of regular Christians. Their deaths were no less painful than Jesus’ was. Can you imagine that the Nazi’s would smash children’s heads in front of their parents. And arrest and kill parents while the children shuddered? This was the culmination of years of poverty under the Nuremberg Laws which prevented Jews from making a living. Who can have the audacity to minimize this suffering as somehow less significant in G-d’s eyes than was Jesus’. Jesus was only one, the Jews were millions. Judaism teaches that anybody who keeps the 7 Noachide laws is a righteous person. They are: Don’t kill, steal, commit adultery or incest, torture animals, worship idols, curse G-d. Do set up a court system. Furthermore, a person is judged according to his acts. He can repent if he makes a mistake. G-d forgives based on repentance. There is no original sin which one needs to be saved from. One is born with a clean slate. One has free choice to do good or evil, and will be rewarded or punished accordingly in the next world. Hence there is no need for belief in Jesus in order to gain salvation. You can simply be a good person, and you will go to heaven. We don’t believe everybody starts off headed for hell.

Response:

Stargate, I agree fully with you with the real purpose of Jesus’ life.  Yet , there were details that Jesus added in the issues of charity, morality, character of God and His Kingdom.  Also, since he claimed to be the Messiah, it is no surprise that He was in line with most of the OT.  However, he wasn’t totally in line with all of the OT.  His main point was to carry man’s sins in death and to be the first resurrected from death in order that someone who  accepted Him would be saved by having his sins bore by Jesus. That someone pointed to Talmud as being the OT is incorrect.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Israel, as God requires you two witness Before you expect any Jews to consider converting, kindly answer the following simple questions: 1) Please list a single moral concept or virtuous practice found in Islam or Christianity I will conceed that I can not think of a single moral concept or virtuous practice found in Islam or Christianity that is not found in Judaism.  The real issue is that Christianity is not about morality, but about unrighteous people looking to the perfect righteousness of Christ.  Jewish prophecy fortold about the comming messiah and Jesus is this messiah.  I am not a christian because I follow some moral code, I am a christian because of the relationship i have with Christ Jesus and trust that the blood he shed on the cross will cover and pay for my transgressions against a holy G-d which was not pre-dated by and/or copied from Judaism. Please do not include anything such as the obligation to believe that Mohammed was a prophet or that the Koran is divine, or that the New Testament says that Jesus is either the Messiah or God or the son of God or all three or whatever, since that is irrelevant to the question. I want a practice, not a belief. 2) Why in the world should any Jew believe some missionary from any religious group whatsoever who comes to the door claiming that so and so is a prophet and wrote a book from G-d. Would you give this same person your credit card number or your computer password just because he knocked at your door? Why would you believe what this stranger has to say about religion when you wouldn’t trust him with anything else? Now think about it, this is exactly how every other religion except Judaism was spread, unless it was spread in an even worse manner, namely by the sword. Sorry world, but we Jews have it from our parents and grandparents going all the way back who saw Moses receiving the Torah on Mount Sinai that G-d would never change it or make additions or subtractions or retractions. We don’t rely on egomaniacs claiming to be Gods or prophets or messiahs. We also don’t rely on strangers telling us about same. We rely only on our family, who are the direct descendants of those to whom the Torah was given right in front of their very faces, period. Please don’t argue with us about morality, as we have never flown planes into the WTC or committed holocausts, as members of your religion have. We have supreme confidence in our family who have struggled to observe and preserve our age-old faith, and don’t need assistance from strangers. Thanks, but no thanks.

Response:

Look, someone, I just named a few like it was asked.  I could name a few more. The fact that Jesus preached passivity as morality isn’t my problem.  He went on to say that anyone who loves this life more than the next is unworthy of Him  It counts as a moral issue that is not in the OT.  Please don’t quote me the text that says that he came to bring a sword.  He was clearly talking about the sword that cuts asunder even members of a family in relationship to belief in Him.  Read the text, if you don’t believe me. In relationship to above, He said don’t resist evil. Jesus said don’t pray in the open like the Pharisees to point attention to your "piety."  THAT is a new moral angle brought up by Jesus. Give in secret is another.  Don’t let people know who and what you have given.  Nowhere in the OT. Give up your riches and follow his example is another, which also fits into the fact that he also said you can’t serve God AND money and that you have to make a choice.  Not in the OT. Love and pray for your enemies.  Bless the people who curse you.  Do good to them who use and persecute you. Forgive without end. Don’t swear… and just say yes or no.  Which btw, people swear on the bible in court rooms.  It’s kind of like a joke.  I really don’t think most people understand Jesus’ preaching or just choose  the easy ones or the ones they like. What you do to the least of people it is as if you did it to God. Don’t pray with repetitious prayers. Blasphemy the Holy Spirit (3rd presentation of God on earth)  stated as the ONLY unforgivable sin.  There is nothing about blaspheming the Holy Spirit on the OT.  I think the Jews don’t believe in the Holy Spirit.  However, in Genesis, God says "Let us make man is OUR image, blah blah blah and the Spirit of God  blah blah blah. It is lawful to do certain work on the Sabbath that is needed for survival of self and other living things. I may be wrong on this.  I won’t freak out if I am.  I don’t think there is anything about resurrection in the OT.  It was a debated issue between the Sadducees and Pharisees at the time because, if I remember right, there is no passage in the OT that says clearly that resurrection was God’s plan for people. Jews DIDN’T invent charity.  To claim that Jews have a patent on all forms of charity is disgusting to me as well as probably most other people.  The idea of giving 2 things when someone asked for one is found nowhere in the OT.  It counts because it covers a greater requirement of charity not found in the OT. Jesus also went into a lot of detail of what the Kingdom of heaven was like and who would or wouldn’t enter. That the Kingdom of Heaven was within the person.  That there was no place you could point to (like a temple or church) and say there is God’s house. That God’s house was within the people who believe. That is NOT what enters a person’s body through the mouth(kosher food) but what comes out that defiles (blasphemy, covertness, pride, etc.) How you judge others will be the judgment made to you by God. No stoning (i.e. mob justice).  Let the man without sin cast the first stone. The greatest should serve the least. That salvation was by faith in Jesus/God and not man’s works, nothing earned but a gift. PREACH the message of God’s love to ALL people, that salvation was not just for the Jews (with many rules for how to proceed preaching the message). Okay, I’ll give you the golden rule.  It’s in Leviticus 18.  But "your neighbor" is not just another Jew but anybody even a pagan such as the example of Samaritan that Jesus gave.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry, turning the other cheek is baloney, not morality. Do you mean we should let the terrorists take out 2 more skyscrapers instead of fighting them? Besides, the Christians including the Church and the Popes never practiced it anyway, and were responsible for quite a bit of violence through the ages. Charity is a major tenet of Judaism, and is found in the Torah (Old Testament) in many places. Love your neighbor as yourself, is a verse in the Torah (Leviticus), as well. Still waiting for an answer. If some one strike you turn the other cheek.  If a person ask of you something give him 2 of that thing.  Love your neighbor as yourself just to mention a few. Israel, as God requires you two witness Before you expect any Jews to consider converting, kindly answer the following simple questions: 1) Please list a single moral concept or virtuous practice found in Islam or Christianity which was not pre-dated by and/or copied from Judaism. Please do not include anything such as the obligation to believe that Mohammed was a prophet or that the Koran is divine, or that the New Testament says that Jesus is either the Messiah or God or the son of God or all three or whatever, since that is irrelevant to the question. I want a practice, not a belief.

Response:

Israel, as God requires you two witness Before you expect any Jews to consider converting, kindly answer the following simple questions: 1) Please list a single moral concept or virtuous practice found in Islam or Christianity

I will conceed that I can not think of a single moral concept or virtuous practice found in Islam or Christianity that is not found in Judaism.  The real issue is that Christianity is not about morality, but about unrighteous people looking to the perfect righteousness of Christ.  Jewish prophecy fortold about the comming messiah and Jesus is this messiah.  I am not a christian because I follow some moral code, I am a christian because of the relationship i have with Christ Jesus and trust that the blood he shed on the cross will cover and pay for my transgressions against a holy G-d – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – which was not pre-dated by and/or copied from Judaism. Please do not include anything such as the obligation to believe that Mohammed was a prophet or that the Koran is divine, or that the New Testament says that Jesus is either the Messiah or God or the son of God or all three or whatever, since that is irrelevant to the question. I want a practice, not a belief. 2) Why in the world should any Jew believe some missionary from any religious group whatsoever who comes to the door claiming that so and so is a prophet and wrote a book from G-d. Would you give this same person your credit card number or your computer password just because he knocked at your door? Why would you believe what this stranger has to say about religion when you wouldn’t trust him with anything else? Now think about it, this is exactly how every other religion except Judaism was spread, unless it was spread in an even worse manner, namely by the sword. Sorry world, but we Jews have it from our parents and grandparents going all the way back who saw Moses receiving the Torah on Mount Sinai that G-d would never change it or make additions or subtractions or retractions. We don’t rely on egomaniacs claiming to be Gods or prophets or messiahs. We also don’t rely on strangers telling us about same. We rely only on our family, who are the direct descendants of those to whom the Torah was given right in front of their very faces, period. Please don’t argue with us about morality, as we have never flown planes into the WTC or committed holocausts, as members of your religion have. We have supreme confidence in our family who have struggled to observe and preserve our age-old faith, and don’t need assistance from strangers. Thanks, but no thanks.

Response:

If turning the other cheek means letting him slap me again, I disagree that there is virtue in that. If it means turning away and overlooking and forgiving it, then this is found in numerous places in Judaic sources. <laugh We might be straining at gnats here.  I think the gist of the idea is No, "Someone" has a good point.

So do you think there’s a distinct difference between not personally seeking revenge for a wrong and turning the other cheek? Though I wasn’t sure one would select religion for Options.

vkd, what does that mean? It is strange that every tenet of the "later" religion appears in the "former".

Why strange?   Jesus was Jewish. the same — and I’ll concede your quotes to prove the point that it has its origins in Judaism.  It’s passive resistance. Passive resistance? Whoever advocated that?

Recently? Gandhi and MLK, to name two.  Trouble is, it kind of depends on _some_ civilization or humanity in the person you’re resisting.  Otherwise, you just end up dead.   Sunny

Response:

If turning the other cheek means letting him slap me again, I disagree that there is virtue in that. If it means turning away and overlooking and forgiving it, then this is found in numerous places in Judaic sources. "Don’t take revenge and don’t bear a grudge…" Leviticus 19,18 "Rava said: Anyone who overlooks an affront, G-d will overlook his own sins." Talmud Rosh Hashanah 17a, Yoma 23b, Yoma 87b, Megilla 28a. "The Rabbis taught: Those who are able to be mistreated, but won’t mistreat others, who are are able to be insulted without answering back, who serve G-d with love, and who are happy even when facing difficult situations, of them the verse (Judges 5) says, `Those who love G-d are mightier than the sun as it comes out in all its strength.’ " PS. I am not out to knock someone else’s religion. However, when the poster states that I should convert to another religion, I have a right to ask what improvements it has made over my current religion. And in fact there aren’t any.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry, turning the other cheek is baloney, not morality. Do you mean we should let the terrorists take out 2 more skyscrapers instead of fighting them? Hang on a minute, please.  Your request was: 1) Please list a single moral concept or virtuous practice found in Islam or Christianity which was not pre-dated by and/or copied from Judaism Turning the cheek is a moral concept and/or virtuous practice within the context of the teachings of Jesus.  You got what you asked for. Now, as to the specifics of it being baloney, the emphasis of the admonitions in the gospels concern *personal* behavior, not institutional or national or tribal.  Where the Torah is more concerned with the relationship of G-d and the nation of Israel, the focus narrows in the gospels to a focus on the relationship between the individual and G-d, and the individual personal responsibility of each person in that regard.  I can no more "turn the other cheek" for the acts of September 11 than you can.  I can, however, on an individual level, recognize a few things — most of which do indeed stem from Judaism.  Basically, I am responsible for *my* actions alone, and if *my* actions continue a cycle of violence that causes me to look on my neighbor as anything less than a fellow human, I bear my own share of culpability, however badly *they’re* behaving, and however much I may think they deserve whacking.

Response:

If some one strike you turn the other cheek.  If a person ask of you something give him 2 of that thing.  Love your neighbor as yourself  just to mention a few.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Israel, as God requires you two witness Before you expect any Jews to consider converting, kindly answer the following simple questions: 1) Please list a single moral concept or virtuous practice found in Islam or Christianity which was not pre-dated by and/or copied from Judaism. Please do not include anything such as the obligation to believe that Mohammed was a prophet or that the Koran is divine, or that the New Testament says that Jesus is either the Messiah or God or the son of God or all three or whatever, since that is irrelevant to the question. I want a practice, not a belief. 2) Why in the world should any Jew believe some missionary from any religious group whatsoever who comes to the door claiming that so and so is a prophet and wrote a book from G-d. Would you give this same person your credit card number or your computer password just because he knocked at your door? Why would you believe what this stranger has to say about religion when you wouldn’t trust him with anything else? Now think about it, this is exactly how every other religion except Judaism was spread, unless it was spread in an even worse manner, namely by the sword. Sorry world, but we Jews have it from our parents and grandparents going all the way back who saw Moses receiving the Torah on Mount Sinai that G-d would never change it or make additions or subtractions or retractions. We don’t rely on egomaniacs claiming to be Gods or prophets or messiahs. We also don’t rely on strangers telling us about same. We rely only on our family, who are the direct descendants of those to whom the Torah was given right in front of their very faces, period. Please don’t argue with us about morality, as we have never flown planes into the WTC or committed holocausts, as members of your religion have. We have supreme confidence in our family who have struggled to observe and preserve our age-old faith, and don’t need assistance from strangers. Thanks, but no thanks.

Response:

Sorry, turning the other cheek is baloney, not morality. Do you mean we should let the terrorists take out 2 more skyscrapers instead of fighting them?

Hang on a minute, please.  Your request was: 1) Please list a single moral concept or virtuous practice found in Islam or Christianity which was not pre-dated by and/or copied from Judaism

Turning the cheek is a moral concept and/or virtuous practice within the context of the teachings of Jesus.  You got what you asked for. Now, as to the specifics of it being baloney, the emphasis of the admonitions in the gospels concern *personal* behavior, not institutional or national or tribal.  Where the Torah is more concerned with the relationship of G-d and the nation of Israel, the focus narrows in the gospels to a focus on the relationship between the individual and G-d, and the individual personal responsibility of each person in that regard.  I can no more "turn the other cheek" for the acts of September 11 than you can.  I can, however, on an individual level, recognize a few things — most of which do indeed stem from Judaism.  Basically, I am responsible for *my* actions alone, and if *my* actions continue a cycle of violence that causes me to look on my neighbor as anything less than a fellow human, I bear my own share of culpability, however badly *they’re* behaving, and however much I may think they deserve whacking. Besides, the Christians including the Church and the Popes never practiced it anyway, and were responsible for quite a bit of violence through the ages.

Yep, they were. Charity is a major tenet of Judaism, and is found in the Torah (Old Testament) in many places.

Quite so.  In fact, their institutionalized system of welfare (looking out for the poor and widows) was admired and coopted by the Romans. Love your neighbor as yourself, is a verse in the Torah (Leviticus), as well.

And the golden rule is a rephrasing of Hillel: "Don’t do to others what is hateful to you." Sunny

Response:

Sorry, turning the other cheek is baloney, not morality. Do you mean we should let the terrorists take out 2 more skyscrapers instead of fighting them? Besides, the Christians including the Church and the Popes never practiced it anyway, and were responsible for quite a bit of violence through the ages. Charity is a major tenet of Judaism, and is found in the Torah (Old Testament) in many places. Love your neighbor as yourself, is a verse in the Torah (Leviticus), as well. Still waiting for an answer.

Why? You created a straw man and wish to knock him down? Do it yourself.

Response:

Sorry, turning the other cheek is baloney, not morality. Do you mean we should let the terrorists take out 2 more skyscrapers instead of fighting them? Besides, the Christians including the Church and the Popes never practiced it anyway, and were responsible for quite a bit of violence through the ages. Charity is a major tenet of Judaism, and is found in the Torah (Old Testament) in many places. Love your neighbor as yourself, is a verse in the Torah (Leviticus), as well. Still waiting for an answer.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If some one strike you turn the other cheek.  If a person ask of you something give him 2 of that thing.  Love your neighbor as yourself just to mention a few. Israel, as God requires you two witness Before you expect any Jews to consider converting, kindly answer the following simple questions: 1) Please list a single moral concept or virtuous practice found in Islam or Christianity which was not pre-dated by and/or copied from Judaism. Please do not include anything such as the obligation to believe that Mohammed was a prophet or that the Koran is divine, or that the New Testament says that Jesus is either the Messiah or God or the son of God or all three or whatever, since that is irrelevant to the question. I want a practice, not a belief.

Response:

Israel, as God requires you two witness

Before you expect any Jews to consider converting, kindly answer the following simple questions: 1) Please list a single moral concept or virtuous practice found in Islam or Christianity which was not pre-dated by and/or copied from Judaism. Please do not include anything such as the obligation to believe that Mohammed was a prophet or that the Koran is divine, or that the New Testament says that Jesus is either the Messiah or God or the son of God or all three or whatever, since that is irrelevant to the question. I want a practice, not a belief. 2) Why in the world should any Jew believe some missionary from any religious group whatsoever who comes to the door claiming that so and so is a prophet and wrote a book from G-d. Would you give this same person your credit card number or your computer password just because he knocked at your door? Why would you believe what this stranger has to say about religion when you wouldn’t trust him with anything else? Now think about it, this is exactly how every other religion except Judaism was spread, unless it was spread in an even worse manner, namely by the sword. Sorry world, but we Jews have it from our parents and grandparents going all the way back who saw Moses receiving the Torah on Mount Sinai that G-d would never change it or make additions or subtractions or retractions. We don’t rely on egomaniacs claiming to be Gods or prophets or messiahs. We also don’t rely on strangers telling us about same. We rely only on our family, who are the direct descendants of those to whom the Torah was given right in front of their very faces, period. Please don’t argue with us about morality, as we have never flown planes into the WTC or committed holocausts, as members of your religion have. We have supreme confidence in our family who have struggled to observe and preserve our age-old faith, and don’t need assistance from strangers. Thanks, but no thanks.

Response:

Israel, as God requires you two witness           for any human legal matters, He knows           that you will require Him to provide           two witnesses for heavenly matters.           This is exactly what He did with regard           to the Messiaship of Jesus.           The Torah of Moses announced His coming           The Qur’an of Mohammad testifies that the Messiah           Already came and His name is JESUS,"Lord of           the blessed conjunctions."           This is what GOD meant by: The Messiah is a prophet           like Moses which is also represented in the TRANSFIGURATION.                    -YOU WERE TRANSFIGURED                     ON THE MOUNTAIN, O CHRIST,OUR GOD                     SHOWING TO YOUR DISCIPLES                     YOUR GLORY AS EACH ONE COULD                     ENDURE.SHINE FORTH ON US                     WHO ARE SINNERS ALL.                     YOUR LIGHT EVER UNENDING.                     THROUGH THE PRAYERS OF THE THEOTOKOS,                     LIGHT-BESTOWER,GLORY TO YOU- Dismissal Hymn.           So Israel if you did not trust the apostles           from Galilea as credible witnesses,nor           Saul for being a roman citizen           at least you should trust the Qur’an           because they had no dealing with           this book, yet this book confirms           Moses regarding Jesus’ Messiaship.           This same Jesus is about to come back the same           way he was taken into heaven.           So Israel bow your knees down and kiss the ground           just like Abraham did when he was given him           to see His glory.           Israel bless the divine name evening and morning           like the ismaelis…           ‘God put in Ahraham descendents an illustrious kingdom           some reject Him, some accept Him.’           Israel accept Him before His coming or it will be           too late for you.           O ISRAEL, KISS THE GROUND and MAY YOU LIVE           IN PEACE WITH THE ISMAELIS FOREVER.           Dialogue Among Civilizations                 Through           Dialogue of Scriptures                  For           One Christ-Centered Civilization

Response:

Related Posts