Christianity QA

Question:

its cross posted

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – should be followed up in Alt.Christnet. Oldone Oldone www.Nativesong.freeservers.com Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

Woo Boy!! <massive round of applause Excellent post Jag.. I had been around and around with her on this in a huge flame war on another group. I am glad you answered her so precisely, unemotionally and showed her agenda out to be what it really is.. A tip o the hat pal;) Yer Pal BirdTribe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hardcore Dianic groups… where men are not welcome, are sexist. Note, I said hardcore, to differentiate them from the other Dianic variants. Specificly, I meant along the lines of Z Budapest & other radicals. Not really; even if your false assumptions about Dianics were all factual (you know nothing about them apparently) to fault the idea of a bunch of radical dykes from worshipping naked with a bunch of men is like saying it’s sexist for faggots not to fuck girls — or, even, sexist of faggots to reject straight men. Perhaps it CAN be sexist but since the "hardcore" dianics tend do to include a lot of dykes who but a horny inappropriate little bastard would insist he belongs there anyway? snip & thanks for proving my point for me. The hardcore groups will always be only fringe, with limited appeal, because they lack the symbolisim & ritual would be needed as a way for men to connect to the divine. & as you yourself point out, Z Budapest & ilk are fading because they do NOT provide positive roles for males in their religion.

<snipped for brevity – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Creditable spiritual thinking does NOT require the demonization of the Other, as you do in broad strokes against entire groupings rather than You are a fine one to speak of NOT demonizing the other. You claim a true feminist can’t love her male mate (husband/boyfriend). Claim non-feminist women are physically abused by mates. You sneer at the sexual activity of hetrosexual women in wiccan circles. You assume that a mixed sex group mean the women are oppressed & regulate into marginalized roles in the group. You say males are second rate thinkers. You marginialize men in your posts on religion to fertility deameon (pet penis)  Now WHAT was that you were saying about demonizing broad groupings? When you & your animus have made peace & you can accept the existance of positive male energies/males THEN you can start talking to me about ‘Creditable Spiritual Thinking’ Until then, stop trying to carve the same scars into everyone else & think you are doing them a favor. assessing individual acts. When you can think of your own faith, even your own politics, in terms that do not require you to in complete ignorance stereotype the Other, only then will you be able to grasp even the positive implications of your own faith. Let alone respect an interfaith embrace. Interfaith…. I wonder if your REALLY know what that means. You don’t seem to recognize much outside your own Montheisim. Jag -paghat

– * Change..Ain’t nothin’ stays the same Unchained…Hit the ground running *

Response:

Why are you trying so hard to start a flame war between Luddy and Paghat BirdTribe? Don’t you think they know how themselves? jules

It’s a failed gambit to get the heat off his own drippy sphincter, having caused so much harm without this time serving himself as well as he’d mistakenly envisioned. And he’s still snorting crank under the delusion that calling anyone a diesel dyke could hurt anyone’s feelings who didn’t share his style of homophobic self-loathing. -paghat

Response:

Hardcore Dianic groups… where men are not welcome, are sexist.

Note, I said hardcore, to differentiate them from the other Dianic variants. Specificly, I meant along the lines of Z Budapest & other radicals. Not really; even if your false assumptions about Dianics were all factual (you know nothing about them apparently) to fault the idea of a bunch of radical dykes from worshipping naked with a bunch of men is like saying it’s sexist for faggots not to fuck girls — or, even, sexist of faggots to reject straight men. Perhaps it CAN be sexist but since the "hardcore" dianics tend do to include a lot of dykes who but a horny inappropriate little bastard would insist he belongs there anyway?

snip & thanks for proving my point for me. The hardcore groups will always be only fringe, with limited appeal, because they lack the symbolisim & ritual would be needed as a way for men to connect to the divine. & as you yourself point out, Z Budapest & ilk are fading because they do NOT provide positive roles for males in their religion. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One of the leading "sexist" proponents of Dianism was Z Budapest in the 1970s. I attended her workshops circa 1974 & she was quite impressive about women, but not cool about men. SHE IS NO LONGER LIKE THAT, and the reason seems to be, judging by an interview with her that appeared in the magazine Beltane about four years ago, because of a growing sense of personal rage that Diana worshippers did not turn to her for guidance. The reason Z was limited in her appeal even to Dianic dykes was because many of them had sons, brothers, fathers, even occasionally lovers, who were male, who were loving & loved, & who dykes are not inclined to despise. In fact almost all genuine man-hating is done by heterosexual women who have plenty of reasons to hate men who’ve disappointed them in so many ways; dykes can be more aloof of all that & judge men on their inherent worth, or lack of worth, individually. In any case, Z was pressured by Dianics into the mellower inclusive stances she takes today. Many non-Dianic wiccans believe in an almost Chinese yin-yang sort of thing that requires an ideal balance (which, however, in practice, usually turns into male-domination anyway — but I’ll address the idea not the

& here you lapse back into your sexist views – that male involvement MUST mean males will dominate the women. reality), with sexual polarities always striving for equality. There’s nothing wrong with that approach but when these sorts of wiccans absolute INSIST any other approach is "unbalanced" they are no different than the

Of COURSE it is unbalanced. The radical Dianics leave a whole sex out. If a religion left WOMEN out you’d claim it unbalanced. As a matter of fact, that IS the major complaint with Christianity & Judeasim…. that it lacks a good repesentation of the female in the divine. Thus people leave & turn to the Neo-Pagan faiths. Now some people take the lopsided path… however, such paths have limited appeal & in the long run loose people to paths that have ways for both sexes to connect to the divine. splendid St John of the Cross, & I do NOT see only patriarchy or some aspect of nastiness in every faith but one. But for the approach of the Goddess Paramount, which has better ancient evidence & doctrine than any other form of worship, the "polarity" exists within the Mother Herself. She is Life and Death; She is Peace and Warfare; She is Fertility and Sterility; She has a Loving Nature, & can punish righteously. There is no "division of nature" or of labor, no sense that the woman cleans the hearth the man hunts the bear, it is a grander vision of unity ultimately (and this sits well with me) as purely monotheistic as Judaism despite the

Yahweh in drag. No wonder it appeals to you, it’s putting a skirt on the religion your elders taught you. The point you miss, is that most Neo-Pagans & Pagans tend to be Polytheists, Pantheists, Animists, ect….. NOT Monotheists. Many have quite a sour taste from the last two thousand years on Monotheisim, with the resulting wars, jihads, inquisitions, ect. So replacing Big Daddy with Big Mommy has only limited appeal & is not really an improvement – for ultimately Big Mommy could be twisted the same way Big Daddy was. I don’t say ANYone has to agree or that their differing faith has to be inferior;

Well we agree on that then. Excluding one sex, from ritual, symbolisim & mythology, regulating males to ‘fertility deamons’ is just as bigoted in its way as the hard core misogynistic chavinist. Well, that could well depend on if one values the most anciently known forms of worship, or the made-up recent ones. The fact is, one of the most

OH? so you are pretending to know the oldest of all faiths? From how many thousands of years ago? If you do a survey of all the faiths we have information on, you will find a huge array of Gods & Goddesses. All masks of God. All ways of thinking about & connecting with the divine. If there were no gods… if males could not see themselves in the divine, how would they connect to it? This is why gods are thought of a ‘male’ or ‘female’ .. so that no matter what your gender, you can recognize a bit of yourself in the divine & connect. If we ever DID find intelligent life on another planet.. the aliens would have gods in their image. (If they had a third sex, there would be a form of the divine of that third sex) radically Goddess-oriented places in the world, Tamilnudu, is a TERRIBLE place to be a woman — yet everyone knows Kali is Numero Uno while Siva is

So, Big Mommy is not always a benefit… suprise, suprise. just this sleepy-head who dreams in a cave & gets his lazy disinterested ass DANCED ON until he’s trampled into dust & nothingness by his own wife. To mistake this faith, which is frequently dominated by priests rather than priestesses, for "sexism" is to have no sense of the divine in the least in other situations either — not even in your dualistic take.

This faith still has a male roll model. & Shiva, while he may get danced on, & his intestines eaten from time to time, also plays key roles in the universe. He is still a god, just a henpecked one. Still a valid image/archetype for males to connect with. It’s just politicly correct form of sexisim. & provides a completely unbalance religion. The concept of "balance" that denies the ultimate Oneness of origination

If you believe in such. Monothiests do, as well as some other odd philosphys. strikes me as the more absurd of the two ideas. But if it comes down to you saying a monthothiestically-inclined Goddess faith HAS to be "unbalanced"

If you have no male aspect of the divine, if men are out of ritual, regulated to the sidelines or villan role in myth…. (Which some of the radical fringe seemed to be in favor of) Then it IS unbalanced. What else would you call it? while I keep saying your divided rather than centered Duality merely splits the Oneness into the corruption of materiality

That IS the nature of the world…. the divine in space in time IS split up in the world. Sparks, patterns & archetypes… masks by which to think of the divine. & I’ll even quibble with the idea that materiality = corruption. That goes back to the old biblical Nature against Man, Man against God split. The idea that the World is cursed, of no real value. Pagan faiths don’t usually have that deep split of Nature vs. Man vs. God. Not like the Biblical faith do. — well, then let’s just have a jihad

Jihad is a monotheistic concept. I’m more into the Pagan Socratic style debate. Preach here, I’ll comment. (if it intrests me) & whoever is last standing gets to pretend they knew the unknowable & proved it by being the biggest asshole murdering shit. Just what we need.. flee from the monothiest’s "Big Daddy" & set up "Big Mommy" instead  Not an improvement. Your horror of the Ultimate Oneness may indeed be drawing you into the corruption of division.

The divine did it first. So obviously there IS something of value in the division. As for the ‘ultimate oneness’…. Ever occur to you that such a thing is so far past sex & gender that refering to it as male or female, both or neither, or by sexes undiscovered has no meaning to the reality of it whatsoever? That these are only masks? Human constructs? pagan groupings in which women are more fully in control of the majority of issues. HEH. Most Pagan circles I have seen, the women tend to dominate in the organizing & putting together of the gathering. Not that the men don’t help…. As I said above, most of the circles that purport to striving for a Lord & Lady "balance" in fact set the women to cooking while a bunch of

Sexisim showing again. Did I even MENTION cooking? No. Organizing & putting together I said. Making the decisons about nuts & bolts of running an event & getting a site. The cooking bit came from your own mind where mixed gender equals women oppressed. second-rate thinkers, all men, make all the decisions. Just more evidence that the Divided Way of your duality is more apt to be the actual lie.

Only in your mind. Your hatred blinds you. It is a synthesis of elements of old Pre-christian faiths, & modern elements Since I am exceedingly well-grounded in Pre-christian faiths I can assure

All of them? If so, then you would see that some myths, symbols & festivals were lifted out of pagan faiths, here & there. Into a modern construct. you, THAT one is one of the great fibs of the wiccan movement. Almost none of it even superfically predates the Romans of the Christian era; some of

The festivals line up with the Celtic ones ‘fer starters. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It remains feminism is

… read more »

Response:

Why are you trying so hard to start a flame war between Luddy and Paghat BirdTribe? Don’t you think they know how themselves? jules – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – oldcrone should be followed up in Alt.Christnet. Oldone Seems wiccans & satanists have in common a reactionary response to their Christian upbringing, & would be neither wiccan nor satanist if a groundwork of Christian abusiveness hadn’t been laid upon their childhood. How odd.  Most of the Wiccans I know personally did not have a Christian upbringing.  In fact, most of them had no spiritual training at all.  I assume you meant, "some Wiccans" and "some Satanists" as opposed to lumping all of them together? She is a diesel dyke man hater with a transparent agenda. Having been the most Pannish of individuals who won’t put up with her false pantheons and hetero bashing I have been a remembered target of hers.. Which is not to say christianity is necessarily abusive but for many it obviously was. okay. There is also the reality that many people who do not understand the finer, largely feminist & pagan attributes of wisecraft practiioners usually regard it as some form of Satan worship. How is Wiccan largly feminist?  I am not Wiccan but I understood that most Wiccan paths pay homage to the Lord and Lady equally/ She’s trolling for sex partners..  And wiccans share (with Christians, from whom it’s ALL apparently learned) that Satanists are a pack of weirdos who practice evil magic racistly called "black", whereas Wiccans are good practitioners "good" being racistly designated "white." What does "white or black magick" have to do with racism? I told ya she doesn’t know shit and is a rote and verser hauling out pantheons of denutted gods and carpet munching females who give birth with no male principle involved. She eschews The Dragon and replaces it with her nutless yin bitch archetype and expects this to be natural. Feh.. I spit on her temple of artificial and sterile union of the heavens and earth. IAO Pan! A peek into the satanist newsgroup discovers it is less crazy & cantancerous than the unmoderated wiccan group. Wiccans tear at each other with hate & venom, but satanists save their worst moments as come-backs for Christian trolls. For the record, most of us in ARW are not Wiccan.  The newsgroup has been labeled ARW but I think as many as half of the regulars are not Wiccan.  There are also those who come to the newsgroup who spew hate and venom that are not Wiccan.  It could well be that Wiccans should stop screaming hysterically "We’re not satanists because we’re not evil!" & just get over being prejudiced boobs still locked in their Christian upbringing with their Christian prejudices. You are generalizing again. One fundamental of satanism appears to be the idea that the Vices cancel one another out. The most obvious is how Vanity cancels Gluttony cuz Vanity wants to be physically fit. Certainly there are some nutball satanists just like there are all kinds of nutballs but the satanists I’ve met in person haven’t been all that nasty. I have met a few.  They do not appear to be nutballs. Feminist wiccans seem pretty far from the satanic tradition, but there are many misogynist wiccans (the infamous BirdShit is a good representation of those) who embrace the Goat God, the same divinity known to dwell within the inverted Pentacle of Satanism. Many faiths/religions embrace a male God or several male gods. This does mot make the practitioners of such misogynist nor does it make them rapists.  You seem quick to label here, Ratgirl. And for the record, Birdtribe also worships several Goddesses. He and I have discussed the worship of the Goddess in her many forms several times in email.  I am not a Goddess worshiper myself but I have learned a great deal about this practice from both Birdtribe and Caliban. As you will learn much about how not to be a Goddess from paggot. Yer Pal BirdTribe Oldone Oldone www.Nativesong.freeservers.com Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

– Jules — I never deny, I never contradict. I sometimes forget. — Benjamin Disraeli

Response:

Seems wiccans & satanists have in common a reactionary response to their Christian upbringing, & would be neither wiccan nor satanist if a groundwork of Christian abusiveness hadn’t been laid upon their childhood. How odd.  Most of the Wiccans I know personally did not have a Christian upbringing.  In fact, most of them had no spiritual training at all.  I assume you meant, "some Wiccans" and "some Satanists" as opposed to lumping all of them together?

Most Wiccans I know, did. There is also the reality that many people who do not understand the finer, largely feminist & pagan attributes of wisecraft practiioners usually regard it as some form of Satan worship. How is Wiccan largly feminist?  I am not Wiccan but I understood that most Wiccan paths pay homage to the Lord and Lady equally/

????? Surely you can not have missed the most recent debate concerning Goddess based religions? I think it’s safe to safe the many Wiccans follow a path that is goddess dominated. — Air muir ’s air tir, Sean of Clan Uisdin If anyone is looking for Sean of Clan Uisdin, he can be found in the bathtub mulling over his thoughts wi’ a dram o’ Glen Ord.                 … The heroes of the race of Conn are dead,                 How bitter to our hearts is the grief for them!                 We shall not live long after them,                 Perilous we think it to be bereaved of the brotherhood! Cathal MacMhuirich "Well, I’m sick of this room and everyone in it!" – Bender "Everything’s gone wrong since Canada came along!" – MAC (Mothers against Canada)

Response:

The key word is "most."  I beleive Ratgirl was generalizing and lumping all Wiccans together.  Goddess dominated does not mean largly "feminist."  There is a difference. Oldone Oldone www.Nativesong.freeservers.com Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – oldcrone should be followed up in Alt.Christnet. Oldone Seems wiccans & satanists have in common a reactionary response to their Christian upbringing, & would be neither wiccan nor satanist if a groundwork of Christian abusiveness hadn’t been laid upon their childhood. How odd.  Most of the Wiccans I know personally did not have a Christian upbringing.  In fact, most of them had no spiritual training at all.  I assume you meant, "some Wiccans" and "some Satanists" as opposed to lumping all of them together?

She is a diesel dyke man hater with a transparent agenda. Having been the most Pannish of individuals who won’t put up with her false pantheons and hetero bashing I have been a remembered target of hers.. Which is not to say christianity is necessarily abusive but for many it obviously was. okay. There is also the reality that many people who do not understand the finer, largely feminist & pagan attributes of wisecraft practiioners usually regard it as some form of Satan worship. How is Wiccan largly feminist?  I am not Wiccan but I understood that most Wiccan paths pay homage to the Lord and Lady equally/

She’s trolling for sex partners..  And wiccans share (with Christians, from whom it’s ALL apparently learned) that Satanists are a pack of weirdos who practice evil magic racistly called "black", whereas Wiccans are good practitioners "good" being racistly designated "white." What does "white or black magick" have to do with racism?

I told ya she doesn’t know shit and is a rote and verser hauling out pantheons of denutted gods and carpet munching females who give birth with no male principle involved. She eschews The Dragon and replaces it with her nutless yin bitch archetype and expects this to be natural. Feh.. I spit on her temple of artificial and sterile union of the heavens and earth. IAO Pan! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A peek into the satanist newsgroup discovers it is less crazy & cantancerous than the unmoderated wiccan group. Wiccans tear at each other with hate & venom, but satanists save their worst moments as come-backs for Christian trolls. For the record, most of us in ARW are not Wiccan.  The newsgroup has been labeled ARW but I think as many as half of the regulars are not Wiccan.  There are also those who come to the newsgroup who spew hate and venom that are not Wiccan.  It could well be that Wiccans should stop screaming hysterically "We’re not satanists because we’re not evil!" & just get over being prejudiced boobs still locked in their Christian upbringing with their Christian prejudices. You are generalizing again. One fundamental of satanism appears to be the idea that the Vices cancel one another out. The most obvious is how Vanity cancels Gluttony cuz Vanity wants to be physically fit. Certainly there are some nutball satanists just like there are all kinds of nutballs but the satanists I’ve met in person haven’t been all that nasty. I have met a few.  They do not appear to be nutballs. Feminist wiccans seem pretty far from the satanic tradition, but there are many misogynist wiccans (the infamous BirdShit is a good representation of those) who embrace the Goat God, the same divinity known to dwell within the inverted Pentacle of Satanism. Many faiths/religions embrace a male God or several male gods. This does mot make the practitioners of such misogynist nor does it make them rapists.  You seem quick to label here, Ratgirl. And for the record, Birdtribe also worships several Goddesses. He and I have discussed the worship of the Goddess in her many forms several times in email.  I am not a Goddess worshiper myself but I have learned a great deal about this practice from both Birdtribe and Caliban.

As you will learn much about how not to be a Goddess from paggot. Yer Pal BirdTribe Oldone Oldone www.Nativesong.freeservers.com Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

– * Change..Ain’t nothin’ stays the same Unchained…Hit the ground running *

Response:

But certainly wicca provides for more sexism than Dianic worship or other Hardcore Dianic groups… where men are not welcome, are sexist.

Not really; even if your false assumptions about Dianics were all factual (you know nothing about them apparently) to fault the idea of a bunch of radical dykes from worshipping naked with a bunch of men is like saying it’s sexist for faggots not to fuck girls — or, even, sexist of faggots to reject straight men. Perhaps it CAN be sexist but since the "hardcore" dianics tend do to include a lot of dykes who but a horny inappropriate little bastard would insist he belongs there anyway? But your worst scenario isn’t even the basis of Dianism. One of the many men who are pro-Dianism is Jeff Morton who has written: –begin quote– Several years ago I subscribed to several stereotypes regarding "those peculiar Dianics".  They were thealogically unbalanced, they hated men, they denied that men had souls, they were all lesbians, they couldn’t spell (in the orthographic sense; no one has yet accused Dianics of inability to work magick), etc. etc.  When I came together with my covensisters, I realized that these notions were at most partially true and some cases were patently false. I believe there are only three valid generalizations that can be made about Dianics: 1) We are all feminists.  2) We all look to the Goddess(es) far more than to the God(s).  3) We are all eclectics. Note well that there are plenty of non-Dianic feminist Witches, non-Dianic eclectics, and non- Dianics who are primarily Goddess-oriented. —end quote— That’s a MAN’S opinion. It would be nice if the speakers of a faith didn’t have to justify themselves on the basis of their gender, but for so long as folks like you — fellow pagans even! — are chalk full of prejudice, hate, & have swallowed a pack of stereotypes & lies, well, it does become necessary to address the MODERN gender politics even in the context of ancient faiths. One of the leading "sexist" proponents of Dianism was Z Budapest in the 1970s. I attended her workshops circa 1974 & she was quite impressive about women, but not cool about men. SHE IS NO LONGER LIKE THAT, and the reason seems to be, judging by an interview with her that appeared in the magazine Beltane about four years ago, because of a growing sense of personal rage that Diana worshippers did not turn to her for guidance. The reason Z was limited in her appeal even to Dianic dykes was because many of them had sons, brothers, fathers, even occasionally lovers, who were male, who were loving & loved, & who dykes are not inclined to despise. In fact almost all genuine man-hating is done by heterosexual women who have plenty of reasons to hate men who’ve disappointed them in so many ways; dykes can be more aloof of all that & judge men on their inherent worth, or lack of worth, individually. In any case, Z was pressured by Dianics into the mellower inclusive stances she takes today. Many non-Dianic wiccans believe in an almost Chinese yin-yang sort of thing that requires an ideal balance (which, however, in practice, usually turns into male-domination anyway — but I’ll address the idea not the reality), with sexual polarities always striving for equality. There’s nothing wrong with that approach but when these sorts of wiccans absolute INSIST any other approach is "unbalanced" they are no different than the Mohammedans who murdered the worshippers of the Three Mothers at Mecca, or the Cappuccin monks who specialized in the torture of witches & Jews. There are many paths.  Eve those of us with interfaith interests may have our "favorites" (mine being a kind of feminist kabbalah which amounts to judaised Dianism of a sort — rather Dianism is western take on semitic/Jewish Asherah worship). But I have no no sense of inferiority when I read the divine poetry of Islam’s Sufi masters, or Catholicism’s splendid St John of the Cross, & I do NOT see only patriarchy or some aspect of nastiness in every faith but one. But for the approach of the Goddess Paramount, which has better ancient evidence & doctrine than any other form of worship, the "polarity" exists within the Mother Herself. She is Life and Death; She is Peace and Warfare; She is Fertility and Sterility; She has a Loving Nature, & can punish righteously. There is no "division of nature" or of labor, no sense that the woman cleans the hearth the man hunts the bear, it is a grander vision of unity ultimately (and this sits well with me) as purely monotheistic as Judaism despite the presence of subsidiary avatars, aspects, Names, fertility daemons or demigods, saints, angels, or whatever exist minutely about the Ultimate who is Mahadevi, Great Goddess. I don’t say ANYone has to agree or that their differing faith has to be inferior; I do think that IF there is a divine realm into which we will all someday return in perpetuity, it will be of Her Womb, & there is no other beyond Her. That in no way negates the dualiteis that are all around us now, & which you may be just as "correct" to propitiate & balance in this material realm that is so very, very distant from that ultimate One. Dianism per se — Z’s legitimately old gypsy take a probable exception — but Dianism of the Drawing Down the Moon sort  – is not ancient but is a modern reconstruction that can be found in purer forms among the Saktists, & even in some takes on Kabbalah that acknowledges the FACT taht the most high sephiroth Keter has the same root-word to its name as Ishtar. And these are truly ancient. Excluding one sex, from ritual, symbolisim & mythology, regulating males to ‘fertility deamons’ is just as bigoted in its way as the hard core misogynistic chavinist.

Well, that could well depend on if one values the most anciently known forms of worship, or the made-up recent ones. The fact is, one of the most radically Goddess-oriented places in the world, Tamilnudu, is a TERRIBLE place to be a woman — yet everyone knows Kali is Numero Uno while Siva is just this sleepy-head who dreams in a cave & gets his lazy disinterested ass DANCED ON until he’s trampled into dust & nothingness by his own wife. To mistake this faith, which is frequently dominated by priests rather than priestesses, for "sexism" is to have no sense of the divine in the least in other situations either — not even in your dualistic take. It’s just politicly correct form of sexisim. & provides a completely unbalance religion.

The concept of "balance" that denies the ultimate Oneness of origination strikes me as the more absurd of the two ideas. But if it comes down to you saying a monthothiestically-inclined Goddess faith HAS to be "unbalanced" while I keep saying your divided rather than centered Duality merely splits the Oneness into the corruption of materiality — well, then let’s just have a jihad & whoever is last standing gets to pretend they knew the unknowable & proved it by being the biggest asshole murdering shit. Just what we need.. flee from the monothiest’s "Big Daddy" & set up "Big Mommy" instead  Not an improvement.

Your horror of the Ultimate Oneness may indeed be drawing you into the corruption of division. pagan groupings in which women are more fully in control of the majority of issues. HEH. Most Pagan circles I have seen, the women tend to dominate in the organizing & putting together of the gathering. Not that the men don’t help….

As I said above, most of the circles that purport to striving for a Lord & Lady "balance" in fact set the women to cooking while a bunch of second-rate thinkers, all men, make all the decisions. Just more evidence that the Divided Way of your duality is more apt to be the actual lie. several other groups, such as in Wales, who call themselves wiccans, though frequently qualifying that the term is MODERN and does not really reflect their own pre-Inquisition faith. Wicca didn’t exist, pre-Inquisition.

I think it all tends toward being modern bullshit but the Welsh wiccans claim theirs is a pre-Inquisition form. It certainly bares no resemblance to American wicca. It is a synthesis of elements of old Pre-christian faiths, & modern elements

Since I am exceedingly well-grounded in Pre-christian faiths I can assure you, THAT one is one of the great fibs of the wiccan movement. Almost none of it even superfically predates the Romans of the Christian era; some of alchemical portions are late medieval or even originate in the decadent dying age of hellenized Egypt. It remains feminism is entirely incompatible with women loving the men they partner with, You must be joking.

 You must be stupid or you wouldn’t insist it is. Blind at least. Just how is feminisim NOT compatible with a woman loving her husband or boyfriend?

Most of the feminists I know have been straight, & married a LOT longer than the poor bedraggled women who say "I’m not feminist" but end up looking for a hide-out after their sixth hospitalization from being beaten near to death. Or are you one of those who only view homosexuals as true feminists, & view all hetrosexual intercourse as rape?

You’ve truly lost even a marginal thread of rational capacity, so I’m clipping the rest without reply. Creditable spiritual thinking does NOT require the demonization of the Other, as you do in broad strokes against entire groupings rather than assessing individual acts. When you can think of your own faith, even your own politics, in terms that do not require you to in complete ignorance stereotype the Other, only then will you be able to grasp even the positive implications of your own faith. Let alone respect an interfaith embrace. -paghat

Response:

Most of the Wiccans I know personally did not have a Christian upbringing.  In fact, most of them had no spiritual training at all.

I’d say it’s absolutely true in the Northwest that specifically designated "wiccans" have either Christian parents, or were themselves raised Christian, & remain haunted by it. There are other outlets for pagan-minded women who were raised Jewish, & are NOT so often haunted by Jewishness because it remains an acceptable positive aspect of faith. Most Christian kids have no "spiritual training" I’m afraid but they get a lot of that culture’s fears & prejudices just from hanging out with their presbyterian, catholic, or holy roller families. And I’ve seen too many wiccans have jumped from faith to faith very flightly & unfocused, somehow never figuring out that interfaith studies don’t require anyone to choose & reject. If these generalities are not true nation-wide I have no experience with that. How is Wiccan largly feminist?  I am not Wiccan but I understood that most Wiccan paths pay homage to the Lord and Lady equally/

It is one of the great flaws of THIS newsgroup that a few dunderheads so hate feminists that they identify it with man-hating. In fact about half the wiccans I’ve met have been pretty radically heterosexual lasses. Some regard themselves "liberated" which means they get passed around by the men in their social circle, others have very beautiful binding ceremonies within the context of their faith. But they are clearly feminists. But certainly wicca provides for more sexism than Dianic worship or other pagan groupings in which women are more fully in control of the majority of issues. This seems to be one major issue in wicca circles that some men get completely out of hand in their "pecker philosophies" that do NOT value yoni energy & use their faith (the way so many "other christians" do) to deplore gays. (There are several wiccans involved with Edge of the Circle in Seattle, mostly faggots, but I’m sure that group’s an exception!) The need for some women to separate themselvese from the bigotries of the worst elements "Lord & Lady" wicca are the "Rationalist Witchcraft" women who call themselvees goddess-oriented wiccans. There are several other groups, such as in Wales, who call themselves wiccans, though frequently qualifying that the term is MODERN and does not really reflect their own pre-Inquisition faith. Then again many "traditional witches" embrace the term wicca as meaning "wise" & categorize wisecraft as wiccan so that "wicca" & "craft" become the same words. It remains feminism is entirely incompatible with women loving the men they partner with, so even those women, with their mates, who honor as "equal" the Lord & Lady — this is one of the main tenents of feminism, not female supremacy but equality of the sexes, so that form of wicca fits nicely. . If there are also rightwing wiccans who would "recognize" the male supremacy that weaklings found in THIS newsgroup seem to believe in, they’ve never been a noticeable presence at festivals around Puget Sound. The tiresome dorks who keep crying "man-hating!" to goddess-oriented faiths never do get more intelligent than that, & just inherently debunk themselves so can be ignored. What does "white or black magick" have to do with racism?

One of the reasons there are so few Black wiccans is because these folks haven’t "thought" about their own use of language. The idea that Black = Bad, White = Good is not true of many cultures. In Japan, White = Death, for example. But in American minds Black, in every permutation, becomes bad. The finer Mystic approach to the Darkness is that it is, in fact, a form of light, & is about Unmanifest Truth — the darkness bares secret knowledge to who gazes therein without fear or hatred. For the record, most of us in ARW are not Wiccan.  The newsgroup has been labeled ARW but I think as many as half of the regulars are not Wiccan.  There are also those who come to the newsgroup who spew hate and venom that are not Wiccan.

In most of the religious newsgrous, including the satanist group & certainly the other pagan-minded newsgroups, most of the most vile people are trolling for Jesus or otherwise just don’t like pagans. But THIS newsgroup seems in large part to be about pagans per se flaming pagans. That’s what gives it the "trailer trash" feeling — an environment where dads are sneaking into their daughters rooms at night & wives cheating on the bastards who beat them up, while the porch that fell loose from the entrance three years back just gets more dangerous to walk on. Many faiths/religions embrace a male God or several male gods.

The position of "god" (meaning fertility daemon) in several goddess-oriented religions is purely subsidiary. But in kabbalah the feminine aspect of God that rules the world, & who is addressed most frequently in prayer, does not contradict the sexless singularity of the First Cause. Since I’ve studied saktism, I follow a very ancient teaching that even Bramah, purportedly the Absolute, is a speck of dust between the pretty toes of Mahakali. It is no coincidence that the self-styled "rationalist wiccans" also study saktism. (Has nothing to do with being rational of course, & I don’t know how national or international the so-called "rationalist" wiccans are. One of their key spokeswomen is Janis Cortese, who states that the supreme deity of Rational Craft is Kali). This does mot make the practitioners of such misogynist nor does it make them rapists.  You seem quick to label here, Ratgirl.

When a man in this ng can say to me that he wants my monogomous girlfriend to be "cured" of lesbianism by his pecker, he’s using the language of rape. Period. When two other men rush to join in the "fun" of this language, they are seconding & extending the language of rape. ALL their attempts to gain power against others by use of sexual language is using sex not for mutuality, binding, or affection, but to obtain power — rapists do not make love, they are frequently impotent & cannot finish an actual sex act. Now only severely disenfranchised powerless men are apt to use wicca as an excuse to flame with rape-language or otherwise to use sexual imagery & threat as a manner of feeling less disempowered & to gain illusory authority especially over "bitches." They would not need to speak this way if they had any real power, whether criminal power or just safety in their own environment. so these men are not (to my knowledge at least) literally rapists. Yet they are DEFINITELY using the language of rape in an attempt to obtain the power they lack in their actual lives. This is just a factual observation, not a quick label. Of coruse the term "rape" is very loaded & even literal rapists balk at being tagged for what they are; certainly those who use the language or rape in a failing attempt to feel empowered just seek to be kowtowed to & hate all the more intensely when their ill-use of language fails to serve them as they’d hoped. Of you think about it for any length of time, & look at some of the basic & repetitious uses of rape-language in the unending flames of Rhyannon — referencing only the nature of these flames against her, not referencing whether or not she merits constant flaming — you’ll probably start agreeing with me more than you’d prefer to admit, the language of rape has become too easy for these pathetic lads. You may not find it as offending as I do, but it is nevertheless true. -paggers – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oldone

Response:

But certainly wicca provides for more sexism than Dianic worship or other

Hardcore Dianic groups… where men are not welcome, are sexist. Excluding one sex, from ritual, symbolisim & mythology, regulating males to ‘fertility deamons’ is just as bigoted in its way as the hard core misogynistic chavinist. It’s just politicly correct form of sexisim. & provides a completely unbalance religion. Just what we need.. flee from the monothiest’s "Big Daddy" & set up "Big Mommy" instead  Not an improvement. pagan groupings in which women are more fully in control of the majority of issues.

HEH. Most Pagan circles I have seen, the women tend to dominate in the organizing & putting together of the gathering. Not that the men don’t help…. but it just seems to be more of a female mind pattern to network & draw the group in. several other groups, such as in Wales, who call themselves wiccans, though frequently qualifying that the term is MODERN and does not really reflect their own pre-Inquisition faith.

Wicca didn’t exist, pre-Inquisition. It is a synthesis of elements of old Pre-christian faiths, & modern elements It remains feminism is entirely incompatible with women loving the men they partner with,

You must be joking. Just how is feminisim NOT compatible with a woman loving her husband or boyfriend? Or are you one of those who only view homosexuals as true feminists, & view all hetrosexual intercourse as rape? What does "white or black magick" have to do with racism?

That this is racist is a modern addition. A way of puting a negative value on the binary type of thought, in an effort to encourage people to break away from it. The ‘white vs. black’ thing is from a Christian influence on Wicca. A heavy influence from the dualist type thinking monothiests fall into. The "I’m OK.. I’m a good Witch, only cast good spells.." Still thinking binary. Good vs. evil.  God vs. Devil.  Night vs. Day Whereas the original non-christian faiths of europe did not have the binary dualist thinking. They recognized the spectrum between, & the cycles between extremes. Shades of grey, the turning of the seasons, twilight. One of the reasons there are so few Black wiccans is because these folks haven’t "thought" about their own use of language. The idea that Black = Bad, White = Good is not true of many cultures. In Japan, White = Death, for example. But in American minds Black, in every permutation, becomes bad. The finer Mystic approach to the Darkness is that it is, in fact, a form of light, & is about Unmanifest Truth — the darkness bares secret knowledge to who gazes therein without fear or hatred. Many faiths/religions embrace a male God or several male gods. The position of "god" (meaning fertility daemon) in several goddess-oriented religions is purely subsidiary.

Which leaves men pretty well out of ritual & lacking a role model & representation in the religion. Which is why such are pretty lopsided in sex ratios. Ultimately unstable in the long run. Which is why pagan faiths that have a balance of male & female energies are drawing more people. Both sexes have to have positive models to identify with, & ritual to connect them with the divine. Both sexes have to be able to see themselves in the divine. This does mot make the practitioners of such misogynist nor does it make them rapists.  You seem quick to label here, Ratgirl. language, they are seconding & extending the language of rape. ALL their attempts to gain power against others by use of sexual language is using sex not for mutuality, binding, or affection, but to obtain power —

You are confusing verbal dominance displays with rape. To whine about the use of ‘rape language’ belittles what rape actualy is (an assult, like a beating) and perpetuates the victim mentality. Were you a male, they would harangue you just as much, with language just as vile and hostile. It is all dominace display, defending of ego & turf. You steped on their toes, threatned their turf….(in their minds) Now they are in full gorrilla chest beat mode. Primate males always react poorly to direct, hostile dominance challenges. That they know you are female, just lets them put a gender on their insults & taunts. It is not comperable to rape. What you are experienceing is the male dominance/pecking order fights/displays to figure out who is where on the social totem pole. Another point: Using sex to obtain power is not always rape. (Rape is an assult) Otherwise we would have to arrest every young gold digger who seduced an older man to gain access to his wealth. Sex is not always used by women for drawing emotional ties. It can be used as a commodity to barter. Some women use it to obtain power & keep power. Indeed, women evolved not to show when they were ovulating, to seem always sexually available to keep the male interested enough to stick around & aide in the child rearing. A sexual hook to snare a mate. One unique to humans amoung the primates… as unique as our infants with the long period of helplessness. Jag – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – rapists do not make love, they are frequently impotent & cannot finish an actual sex act. Now only severely disenfranchised powerless men are apt to use wicca as an excuse to flame with rape-language or otherwise to use sexual imagery & threat as a manner of feeling less disempowered & to gain illusory authority especially over "bitches." They would not need to speak this way if they had any real power, whether criminal power or just safety in their own environment. so these men are not (to my knowledge at least) literally rapists. Yet they are DEFINITELY using the language of rape in an attempt to obtain the power they lack in their actual lives. This is just a factual observation, not a quick label. Of coruse the term "rape" is very loaded & even literal rapists balk at being tagged for what they are; certainly those who use the language or rape in a failing attempt to feel empowered just seek to be kowtowed to & hate all the more intensely when their ill-use of language fails to serve them as they’d hoped. Of you think about it for any length of time, & look at some of the basic & repetitious uses of rape-language in the unending flames of Rhyannon — referencing only the nature of these flames against her, not referencing whether or not she merits constant flaming — you’ll probably start agreeing with me more than you’d prefer to admit, the language of rape has become too easy for these pathetic lads. You may not find it as offending as I do, but it is nevertheless true. -paggers Oldone

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I only have one thing to say on this long rant and its about this paragraph "In most of the religious newsgrous, including the satanist group & certainly the other pagan-minded newsgroups, most of the most vile people are trolling for Jesus or otherwise just don’t like pagans. But THIS newsgroup seems in large part to be about pagans per se flaming pagans. That’s what gives it the "trailer trash" feeling — an environment where dads are sneaking into their daughters rooms at night & wives cheating on the bastards who beat them up, while the porch that fell loose from the entrance three years back just gets more dangerous to walk on. " Ok even im new here but you’ve been here how long?You quickly rush to judge and label us all and expect anyone to take anything you say seriously???????

I first posted in this ng about three years ago. I have rarely stayed longer than a week at a time. My observations of what it is for the last MANY months stems from my having pulled up something like 8,000 posts & skim-reading LOADS of them before I bothered to start posting again. Bit hey, you can stick around for the next 20 years without growing one whit & YOUR opinion will still count for so little (even to yourself) that mine’s bound to seem like it’s big & important even if it’s still of small consequence. -paghat

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Draconis I only have one thing to say on this long rant and its about this paragraph "In most of the religious newsgrous, including the satanist group & certainly the other pagan-minded newsgroups, most of the most vile people are trolling for Jesus or otherwise just don’t like pagans. But THIS newsgroup seems in large part to be about pagans per se flaming pagans. That’s what gives it the "trailer trash" feeling — an environment where dads are sneaking into their daughters rooms at night & wives cheating on the bastards who beat them up, while the porch that fell loose from the entrance three years back just gets more dangerous to walk on. " Ok even im new here but you’ve been here how long?You quickly rush to judge and label us all and expect anyone to take anything you say seriously??????? I first posted in this ng about three years ago. I have rarely stayed longer than a week at a time. My observations of what it is for the last MANY months stems from my having pulled up something like 8,000 posts & skim-reading LOADS of them before I bothered to start posting again. Bit hey, you can stick around for the next 20 years without growing one whit & YOUR opinion will still count for so little (even to yourself) that mine’s bound to seem like it’s big & important even if it’s still of small consequence. -paghat

Just showing how much of a life you dont have ratgirl by wasting so much time in a place you think so lowly of,just like you do with your obsession with BirdTribe he isnt perfect no one is but you claim to have forgot all about him for years now you show up spending all your time flaming him A troll is a troll no matter how much research they do and you ratgirl are a troll Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – oldcrone Most of the Wiccans I know personally did not have a Christian upbringing.  In fact, most of them had no spiritual training at all. I’d say it’s absolutely true in the Northwest that specifically designated "wiccans" have either Christian parents, or were themselves raised Christian, & remain haunted by it. There are other outlets for pagan-minded women who were raised Jewish, & are NOT so often haunted by Jewishness because it remains an acceptable positive aspect of faith. Most Christian kids have no "spiritual training" I’m afraid but they get a lot of that culture’s fears & prejudices just from hanging out with their presbyterian, catholic, or holy roller families. And I’ve seen too many wiccans have jumped from faith to faith very flightly & unfocused, somehow never figuring out that interfaith studies don’t require anyone to choose & reject. If these generalities are not true nation-wide I have no experience with that. How is Wiccan largly feminist?  I am not Wiccan but I understood that most Wiccan paths pay homage to the Lord and Lady equally/ It is one of the great flaws of THIS newsgroup that a few dunderheads so hate feminists that they identify it with man-hating. In fact about half the wiccans I’ve met have been pretty radically heterosexual lasses. Some regard themselves "liberated" which means they get passed around by the men in their social circle, others have very beautiful binding ceremonies within the context of their faith. But they are clearly feminists. But certainly wicca provides for more sexism than Dianic worship or other pagan groupings in which women are more fully in control of the majority of issues. This seems to be one major issue in wicca circles that some men get completely out of hand in their "pecker philosophies" that do NOT value yoni energy & use their faith (the way so many "other christians" do) to deplore gays. (There are several wiccans involved with Edge of the Circle in Seattle, mostly faggots, but I’m sure that group’s an exception!) The need for some women to separate themselvese from the bigotries of the worst elements "Lord & Lady" wicca are the "Rationalist Witchcraft" women who call themselvees goddess-oriented wiccans. There are several other groups, such as in Wales, who call themselves wiccans, though frequently qualifying that the term is MODERN and does not really reflect their own pre-Inquisition faith. Then again many "traditional witches" embrace the term wicca as meaning "wise" & categorize wisecraft as wiccan so that "wicca" & "craft" become the same words. It remains feminism is entirely incompatible with women loving the men they partner with, so even those women, with their mates, who honor as "equal" the Lord & Lady — this is one of the main tenents of feminism, not female supremacy but equality of the sexes, so that form of wicca fits nicely. . If there are also rightwing wiccans who

would "recognize" the – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -male supremacy that weaklings found in THIS newsgroup seem to believe in, they’ve never been a noticeable presence at festivals around Puget Sound. The tiresome dorks who keep crying "man-hating!" to goddess- oriented faiths never do get more intelligent than that, & just inherently debunk themselves so can be ignored. What does "white or black magick" have to do with racism? One of the reasons there are so few Black wiccans is because these folks haven’t "thought" about their own use of language. The idea that Black = Bad, White = Good is not true of many cultures. In Japan, White = Death, for example. But in American minds Black, in every permutation, becomes bad. The finer Mystic approach to the Darkness is that it is, in fact, a form of light, & is about Unmanifest Truth — the darkness bares secret knowledge to who gazes therein without fear or hatred. For the record, most of us in ARW are not Wiccan.  The newsgroup has been labeled ARW but I think as many as half of the regulars are not Wiccan.  There are also those who come to the newsgroup who spew hate and venom that are not Wiccan. In most of the religious newsgrous, including the satanist group & certainly the other pagan-minded newsgroups, most of the most vile people are trolling for Jesus or otherwise just don’t like pagans. But THIS newsgroup seems in large part to be about pagans per se flaming pagans. That’s what gives it the "trailer trash" feeling — an environment where dads are sneaking into their daughters rooms at night & wives cheating on the bastards who beat them up, while the porch that fell loose from the entrance three years back just gets more dangerous to walk on. Many faiths/religions embrace a male God or several male gods. The position of "god" (meaning fertility daemon) in several goddess-oriented religions is purely subsidiary. But in kabbalah the feminine aspect of God that rules the world, & who is addressed most frequently in prayer, does not contradict the sexless singularity of the First Cause. Since I’ve studied saktism, I follow a very ancient teaching that even Bramah, purportedly the Absolute, is a speck of dust between the pretty toes of Mahakali. It is no coincidence that the self-styled "rationalist wiccans" also study saktism. (Has nothing to do with being rational of course, & I don’t know how national or international the so-called "rationalist" wiccans are. One of their key spokeswomen is Janis Cortese, who states that the supreme deity of Rational Craft is Kali). This does mot make the practitioners of such misogynist nor does it make them rapists.  You seem quick to label here, Ratgirl. When a man in this ng can say to me that he wants my monogomous girlfriend to be "cured" of lesbianism by his pecker, he’s using the language of rape. Period. When two other men rush to join in the "fun" of this language, they are seconding & extending the language of rape. ALL their attempts to gain power against others by use of sexual language is using sex not for mutuality, binding, or affection, but to obtain power — rapists do not make love, they are frequently impotent & cannot finish an actual sex act. Now only severely disenfranchised powerless men are apt to use wicca as an excuse to flame with rape-language or otherwise to use sexual imagery & threat as a manner of feeling less

disempowered & to gain – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -illusory authority especially over "bitches." They would not need to speak this way if they had any real power, whether criminal power or just safety in their own environment. so these men are not (to my knowledge at least) literally rapists. Yet they are DEFINITELY using the language of rape in an attempt to obtain the power they lack in their actual lives. This is just a factual observation, not a quick label. Of coruse the term "rape" is very loaded & even literal rapists balk at being tagged for what they are; certainly those who use the language or rape in a failing attempt to feel empowered just seek to be kowtowed to & hate all the more intensely when their ill-use of language fails to serve them as they’d hoped. Of you think about it for any length of time, & look at some of the basic & repetitious uses of rape-language in the unending flames of Rhyannon — referencing only the nature of these flames against her, not referencing whether or not she merits constant flaming — you’ll probably start agreeing with me more than you’d prefer to admit, the language of rape has become too easy for these pathetic lads. You may not find it as offending as I do, but it is nevertheless true. -paggers Oldone

I only have one thing to say on this long rant and its about this paragraph "In most of the religious newsgrous, including the satanist group & certainly the other pagan-minded newsgroups, most of the most vile people are trolling for Jesus or otherwise just don’t like pagans. But THIS newsgroup seems in large part to be about pagans per se flaming pagans. That’s what gives it the "trailer trash" feeling — an environment where dads are sneaking into their daughters rooms at night & wives cheating on the bastards who beat them up, while the porch that fell loose from the entrance three years back just gets more dangerous to walk on. " Ok even im new here but you’ve been here how long?You quickly rush to judge and label us all and expect anyone to take anything you say seriously??????? Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

Dearest Paghat:                 This may be so in great many cases. There is a

reactionary stance with some Wiccans regarding this (we are talking about a metaphor of reality after all.) However I have met a great many Wiccans/Witches who had no such unpleasantness at all and came to The Craft after exploring many religious and philosophical paths. It became a logical conclusion to a search.                                 Blessed be, Lady Dionne  

Actually I think the "reactionary" component true more of THIS newsgroup than of "all" wiccans, though even among the mellow Northwest wiccans, they’re all ex-Christians. In the broader context of goddess worship, however, those who do not specifically call themselves wiccans, there are many who never had christian backgrounds. Some are feminist gypsies, many are Jews (I won’t say ex-Jews because the existence of the Hebrew Goddess called the Shabbat Bride, or Kallah, or Matronith, or Shekhinah, does not require Jewish pagans to stop being Jewish, though it makes it pretty hard to sit in an orthodox synogogue). But even if most wiccans are ex-christians retaining a christian underpinning their sundry "takes" on paganism, that doesn’t HAVE to be bad. It’s just that when it’s purely a reactionary rather than personal growth thing, it’s not ultimately going to prove to be much of a change. -paghat – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Seems wiccans & satanists have in common a reactionary response to their Christian upbringing, & would be neither wiccan nor satanist if a groundwork of Christian abusiveness hadn’t been laid upon their childhood. Which is not to say christianity is necessarily abusive but for many it obviously was.

Response:

Dearest Paghat:                 This may be so in great many cases. There is a reactionary stance with some Wiccans regarding this (we are talking about a metaphor of reality after all.) However I have met a great many Wiccans/Witches who had no such unpleasantness at all and came to The Craft after exploring many religious and philosophical paths. It became a logical conclusion to a search.                                 Blessed be, Lady Dionne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Seems wiccans & satanists have in common a reactionary response to their Christian upbringing, & would be neither wiccan nor satanist if a groundwork of Christian abusiveness hadn’t been laid upon their childhood. Which is not to say christianity is necessarily abusive but for many it obviously was.

Response:

oldcrone should be followed up in Alt.Christnet. Oldone Seems wiccans & satanists have in common a reactionary response to their Christian upbringing, & would be neither wiccan nor satanist if a groundwork of Christian abusiveness hadn’t been laid upon their

childhood. How odd.  Most of the Wiccans I know personally did not have a Christian upbringing.  In fact, most of them had no spiritual training at all.  I assume you meant, "some Wiccans" and "some Satanists" as opposed to lumping all of them together? Which is not to say christianity is necessarily abusive but for many it obviously was.

okay. There is also the reality that many people who do not understand the finer, largely feminist & pagan attributes of wisecraft practiioners usually regard it as some form of Satan worship.

How is Wiccan largly feminist?  I am not Wiccan but I understood that most Wiccan paths pay homage to the Lord and Lady equally/  And wiccans share (with Christians, from whom it’s ALL apparently learned) that Satanists are a pack of weirdos who practice evil magic racistly

called "black", whereas Wiccans are good practitioners "good" being racistly

designated "white." What does "white or black magick" have to do with racism? A peek into the satanist newsgroup discovers it is less crazy & cantancerous than the unmoderated wiccan group. Wiccans tear at each other with hate & venom, but satanists save their worst moments as come-backs for Christian trolls.

For the record, most of us in ARW are not Wiccan.  The newsgroup has been labeled ARW but I think as many as half of the regulars are not Wiccan.  There are also those who come to the newsgroup who spew hate and venom that are not Wiccan.  It could well be that Wiccans should stop screaming hysterically "We’re not satanists because we’re not evil!" & just get over being prejudiced boobs still locked in their Christian upbringing with their Christian prejudices.

You are generalizing again. One fundamental of satanism appears to be the idea that the Vices cancel one another out. The most obvious is how Vanity cancels Gluttony cuz Vanity wants to be physically fit. Certainly there are some nutball satanists just like there are all kinds of nutballs but the satanists I’ve met in person haven’t been all that nasty.

I have met a few.  They do not appear to be nutballs. Feminist wiccans seem pretty far from the satanic tradition, but there are many misogynist wiccans (the infamous BirdShit is a good representation of those) who embrace the Goat God, the same divinity known to dwell within the inverted Pentacle of Satanism.

Many faiths/religions embrace a male God or several male gods. This does mot make the practitioners of such misogynist nor does it make them rapists.  You seem quick to label here, Ratgirl. And for the record, Birdtribe also worships several Goddesses. He and I have discussed the worship of the Goddess in her many forms several times in email.  I am not a Goddess worshiper myself but I have learned a great deal about this practice from both Birdtribe and Caliban. Oldone Oldone www.Nativesong.freeservers.com Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

It has nothing to do with us,ratgirl is here to down BirdTribe and anyone else she thinks is in his "camp" and like the other trolls will try using any angle to attack him from Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

should be followed up in Alt.Christnet. Oldone

*shrugs*  This appears a trolling  using old posts, the post replied to according to deja is dated 05/28/2000, over 2 months old. <snips

Response:

As i said she is trolling,in every post she finds some way to down BT if she thinks she is getting a damn thing done she better look twice and think reeeeaaaalll hard and maybe she will realize we could give a fuck about what she thinks,ok i shouldnt say "we"that implies ALL im sure theres one or two people that bother taking her posts serious Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

Satan is a liar and a deceiver Jesus is truth who does nt deceive peole to follow his true way

Some believed Jesus was a Prince of Demons [Mk 3:22; Lk 11:15] & that is why he had authority to cast out devils if he wished. In christian gospels there is no statement anywhere that jesus was a good looking fellow; he was in fact up to the Renassance regarded as quite ugly but with an interior light that made him nevertheless appealing. The Jesus christians know today, kind of a hippy dude very sweet-looking with his long curly locks & smiling face, is obviously an image of Lucifer, who was so beautiful he was once God’s favorite. It is Satan’s coolest trick to have hornswoggled christians in worshipping an idol of Satan himself & mistaking it for god’s son. -paghat the ratgirl

Response:

should be followed up in Alt.Christnet. Oldone Oldone www.Nativesong.freeservers.com Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

should be followed up in Alt.Christnet. Oldone

Seems wiccans & satanists have in common a reactionary response to their Christian upbringing, & would be neither wiccan nor satanist if a groundwork of Christian abusiveness hadn’t been laid upon their childhood. Which is not to say christianity is necessarily abusive but for many it obviously was. There is also the reality that many people who do not understand the finer, largely feminist & pagan attributes of wisecraft practiioners usually regard it as some form of Satan worship. And wiccans share (with Christians, from whom it’s ALL apparently learned) that Satanists are a pack of weirdos who practice evil magic racistly called "black", whereas Wiccans are good practitioners "good" being racistly designated "white." A peek into the satanist newsgroup discovers it is less crazy & cantancerous than the unmoderated wiccan group. Wiccans tear at each other with hate & venom, but satanists save their worst moments as come-backs for Christian trolls. It could well be that Wiccans should stop screaming hysterically "We’re not satanists because we’re not evil!" & just get over being prejudiced boobs still locked in their Christian upbringing with their Christian prejudices. One fundamental of satanism appears to be the idea that the Vices cancel one another out. The most obvious is how Vanity cancels Gluttony cuz Vanity wants to be physically fit. Certainly there are some nutball satanists just like there are all kinds of nutballs but the satanists I’ve met in person haven’t been all that nasty. Feminist wiccans seem pretty far from the satanic tradition, but there are many misogynist wiccans (the infamous BirdShit is a good representation of those) who embrace the Goat God, the same divinity known to dwell within the inverted Pentacle of Satanism. There is enough in common to merit investigating those connections. My own sense is definitely that wicca as commonly practiced by people reacting against their Christian childhood has the same impetus & origin as Satanism. That can’t be an insulting idea, either, to anyone who is willing to be respectful of other peoples’ faiths — no more than it is insulting to note that Islam & Judaism are divergent faiths with a shared root. -paghat the ratgirl

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