Christianity QA

Question:

What are the criteria that scholarly Christians, Jews and others would apply to verify the truth or falsehood of a supposed Messiah? Is there any overlap with the items mentioned on my Salmon on the Thorns web page, http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html  , particularly the second long list on the subpage http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/summary.html   ? Of course since I am claiming to be a non-deminational global Opener of the Way (leader to the promised land) balancing figure, such list should also overlap with Buddhist and Hindu and Sufi and other criteria but I won’t post to those groups tonight except the component on talk.religion.misc . Also would you expect such a figure to have no new messages? If so why would there be a need for such a figure? New moon (and spring) blessings on you and yours.   It is 155 lunar months after the Sept. 8, 1991 new moon  (and 8 years and 51 days after my "wilderness" years started) and I am a wee bit tired. My hope once again is that this month the Haida clamshell will open, or equivalent the Irish landlady’s eyes will open wide with delight (i.e. the moon will wax from new to full) ending at Passover full moon, as in the drinking song Wild Rover. Anyway, regardless of my claims and hopes, I am interested in some answers to the first paragraph. Good night, David

Response:

Of course since I am claiming to be a non-deminational global

oops, non-denominational

Response:

Signs of Moshiach: Sources Author: Rabbi Emmanuel Schochet The time appointed by G-d for the Messianic redemption is a closely guarded secret.29 Nonetheless, we are offered many hints to recognize its proximity: when certain conditions come about, await the imminent coming of Moshiach. Most of these conditions are quite disturbing, clearly displaying a situation of the very "bottom of the pit."30 One major source describes the world-condition in those days as follows: increase in insolence and impudence; oppressing inflation; unbridled irresponsibility on the part of authorities; centers of learning will turn into bawdy houses; wars; many destitutes begging, with none to pity them; wisdom shall be putrid; the pious shall be despised; truth will be abandoned; the young will insult the old; family-breakup with mutual recriminations; impudent leadership.31 Other sources add: lack of scholars; succession of troubles and evil decrees; famines; mutual denunciations; epidemics of terrible diseases; poverty and scarcity; cursing and blaspheming; international confrontations – nations provoking and fighting each other.32 In short, it will be a time of suffering that will make it look as if G-d were asleep. These are the birthpangs of Moshiach, bearable only in anticipation of the bliss that follows them. "When you see a generation ever dwindling, hope for him .. when you see a generation overwhelmed by many troubles as by a river, await him."33 "When you see nations fighting each other, look toward the feet of Moshiach."34 Little wonder that some sages expressed apprehensions about those days in terms of, "Let [Moshiach] come, but let me not see him."35 The prevailing attitude, however, is to await his coming in spite of all, even if thereafter we shall merit no more than sitting "in the shadow of his donkey’ s dung!"36 The troubles and agony of chevlei Moshiach (birthpangs of Moshiach), however, are not unavoidable: "What is man to do to be spared the pangs of Moshiach? Let him engage in Torah and acts of loving-kindness!"37 Moreover, there are also good and happy signs indicating the imminent coming of Moshiach: a good measure of prosperity;38 a renewal of Torah-study;39 and opening of the "gates of wisdom above and the wellsprings of wisdom below," 40 evidenced also by scientific and technological discoveries and advances; a manifestation and propagation of the mystical teachings of the Torah;41 and also – "In the time that Moshiach will awaken, many signs and miracles will occur in the world."42 —- 29.  Pesachim 54b; Midrash Tehilim 9:2. See Zohar Chadash, Bereishit, 8a. 30.  Midrash Tehilim 45:3. See Ma’amarei Admur Hazaken-Ethalech, p. 103f.; and Besha’ah Shehik-dimu-5672, vol. I:p. 551; relating this to the principle (Midrash Tehilim 22:4; Zohar II:46a) that the darkest moments of the night are immediately before daybreak. Cf. Zohar I:170a. For this analogy see also the comment of R. Elijah, the Vilna Gaon, cited in Even Shelemah, ch. 11:5. 31.  Sotah 49b 32.  Sanhedrin 97a; Shir Rabba 2:29. 33.  Sanhedrin 98a 34.  Bereishit Rabba 42:4. Note Pesikta Rabaty 37:2 (ed. Friedmann, ch. 36)! 35.  Sanhedrin 98b 36.  Ibid. See also Zohar II:7aff. 37.  Sanhedrin 98b 38.  Sanhedrin 97a; Shir Rabba 2:29. 39.  Ibid. 40.  Zohar I:117a 41.  Zohar I:118a. See Zohar Chadash, Tikunim, 96c; and Mayanei Hayeshu’ah, I:2. Cf. below, note 84. Note also Igeret Teyman, ch. 3, that prophecy shall be restored to Israel prior to the coming of Moshiach. 42.  Zohar II:8a http://moshiach.com/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What are the criteria that scholarly Christians, Jews and others would apply to verify the truth or falsehood of a supposed Messiah? Is there any overlap with the items mentioned on my Salmon on the Thorns web page, http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html  , particularly the second long list on the subpage http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/summary.html   ? Of course since I am claiming to be a non-deminational global Opener of the Way (leader to the promised land) balancing figure, such list should also overlap with Buddhist and Hindu and Sufi and other criteria but I won’t post to those groups tonight except the component on talk.religion.misc . Also would you expect such a figure to have no new messages? If so why would there be a need for such a figure? New moon (and spring) blessings on you and yours.   It is 155 lunar months after the Sept. 8, 1991 new moon  (and 8 years and 51 days after my "wilderness" years started) and I am a wee bit tired. My hope once again is that this month the Haida clamshell will open, or equivalent the Irish landlady’s eyes will open wide with delight (i.e. the moon will wax from new to full) ending at Passover full moon, as in the drinking song Wild Rover. Anyway, regardless of my claims and hopes, I am interested in some answers to the first paragraph. Good night, David

— Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

Read the FAQ http://www.pacificnet.net/~faigin/SCJ/faq/index.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What are the criteria that scholarly Christians, Jews and others

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Read the FAQ http://www.pacificnet.net/~faigin/SCJ/faq/index.html What are the criteria that scholarly Christians, Jews and others "Forbidden You don’t have permission to access /~faigin/SCJ/faq/intro.html on this server." Nice try.

Under the index, type in the word "messiah" and click on "find." All kinds of information appears. Nice try. Best regards, —Cindy S.

Response:

Signs of Moshiach: Sources Author: Rabbi Emmanuel Schochet The time appointed by G-d for the Messianic redemption is a closely

guarded Or he already came fulfilling all the prophecies and your ancestors lobbied to kill him like they killed the prophets who prophcied him.  Sounds logical.  Gets my vote.  After all, what WAS that Zechariah guy talking about with the priest Y’shua and the pieces of silver and all, and that Isaiah guy talking about him being bruised for our iniquities….were you clowns going to throw him a PARTY when he gets here?  No.  You were going to kill him.  So did he already die?  Or are you planning in wait for him as we speak?  The prophets say..for you…doesn’t look real good either way. Repent. -Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – secret.29 Nonetheless, we are offered many hints to recognize its proximity: when certain conditions come about, await the imminent coming of Moshiach. Most of these conditions are quite disturbing, clearly displaying a situation of the very "bottom of the pit."30 One major source describes the world-condition in those days as follows: increase in insolence and impudence; oppressing inflation; unbridled irresponsibility on the part of authorities; centers of learning will turn into bawdy houses; wars; many destitutes begging, with none to pity them; wisdom shall be putrid; the pious shall be despised; truth will be abandoned; the young will insult the old; family-breakup with mutual recriminations; impudent leadership.31 Other sources add: lack of scholars; succession of troubles and evil decrees; famines; mutual denunciations; epidemics of terrible diseases; poverty and scarcity; cursing and blaspheming; international confrontations – nations provoking and fighting each other.32 In short, it will be a time of suffering that will make it look as if G-d were asleep. These are the birthpangs of Moshiach, bearable only in anticipation of the bliss that follows them. "When you see a generation ever dwindling, hope for him .. when you see a generation overwhelmed by many troubles as by a river, await him."33 "When you see nations fighting each other, look toward the feet of Moshiach."34 Little wonder that some sages expressed apprehensions about those days in terms of, "Let [Moshiach] come, but let me not see him."35 The prevailing attitude, however, is to await his coming in spite of all, even if thereafter we shall merit no more than sitting "in the shadow of his donkey’ s dung!"36 The troubles and agony of chevlei Moshiach (birthpangs of Moshiach), however, are not unavoidable: "What is man to do to be spared the pangs of Moshiach? Let him engage in Torah and acts of loving-kindness!"37 Moreover, there are also good and happy signs indicating the imminent coming of Moshiach: a good measure of prosperity;38 a renewal of Torah-study;39 and opening of the "gates of wisdom above and the wellsprings of wisdom below," 40 evidenced also by scientific and technological discoveries and advances; a manifestation and propagation of the mystical teachings of the Torah;41 and also – "In the time that Moshiach will awaken, many signs and miracles will occur in the world."42 — —- 29.  Pesachim 54b; Midrash Tehilim 9:2. See Zohar Chadash, Bereishit, 8a. 30.  Midrash Tehilim 45:3. See Ma’amarei Admur Hazaken-Ethalech, p. 103f.; and Besha’ah Shehik-dimu-5672, vol. I:p. 551; relating this to the principle (Midrash Tehilim 22:4; Zohar II:46a) that the darkest moments of the night are immediately before daybreak. Cf. Zohar I:170a. For this analogy see also the comment of R. Elijah, the Vilna Gaon, cited in Even Shelemah, ch. 11:5. 31.  Sotah 49b 32.  Sanhedrin 97a; Shir Rabba 2:29. 33.  Sanhedrin 98a 34.  Bereishit Rabba 42:4. Note Pesikta Rabaty 37:2 (ed. Friedmann, ch. 36)! 35.  Sanhedrin 98b 36.  Ibid. See also Zohar II:7aff. 37.  Sanhedrin 98b 38.  Sanhedrin 97a; Shir Rabba 2:29. 39.  Ibid. 40.  Zohar I:117a 41.  Zohar I:118a. See Zohar Chadash, Tikunim, 96c; and Mayanei Hayeshu’ah, I:2. Cf. below, note 84. Note also Igeret Teyman, ch. 3, that prophecy shall be restored to Israel prior to the coming of Moshiach. 42.  Zohar II:8a http://moshiach.com/ What are the criteria that scholarly Christians, Jews and others would apply to verify the truth or falsehood of a supposed Messiah? Is there any overlap with the items mentioned on my Salmon on the Thorns web page, http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html  , particularly the second long list on the subpage http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/summary.html   ? Of course since I am claiming to be a non-deminational global Opener of the Way (leader to the promised land) balancing figure, such list should also overlap with Buddhist and Hindu and Sufi and other criteria but I won’t post to those groups tonight except the component on talk.religion.misc . Also would you expect such a figure to have no new messages? If so why would there be a need for such a figure? New moon (and spring) blessings on you and yours.   It is 155 lunar months after the Sept. 8, 1991 new moon  (and 8 years and 51 days after my "wilderness" years started) and I am a wee bit tired. My hope once again is that this month the Haida clamshell will open, or equivalent the Irish landlady’s eyes will open wide with delight (i.e. the moon will wax from new to full) ending at Passover full moon, as in the drinking song Wild Rover. Anyway, regardless of my claims and hopes, I am interested in some answers to the first paragraph. Good night, David — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

What are the criteria that scholarly Christians, Jews and others would apply to verify the truth or falsehood of a supposed Messiah?

1. The Jewish Messiah will be a great leader, like a king or an army general and possibly lead us to military victory against our enemies. 2. He will bring peace on earth. 3. He will rebuild the temple and reestablish the animal sacrifices. 4. He will ingather all the Jews to Israel. 5. He will unite the world in the worship of one God. 6. He will be completely observant of the 613 mitzvos of the torah. All Jews will be running to keep the 613 mitzvos. 7. All of this will happen by national revelation. When the Messiah comes, EVERYONE will know and acknowledge him as such. When all of these things happen, then we will know the Messiah has come. Now, here is what the messiah will not be/do: 1. He will be 100% human. No stories about God coming to earth in human form. 2. He will not be a human sacrifice to atone for anyone else’s sins. The Messiah is not about atonement for sin at all. Although there will be a lot less sin, people will continue to atone through prayer and through the reinsituted animal sacrifices at the rebuilt temple. 3. He will reaffirm the torah law, not dispense with it, not criticize it, not transgress it. Best regards, —Cindy S.

Response:

What are the criteria that scholarly Christians, Jews and others would apply to verify the truth or falsehood of a supposed Messiah? 1. The Jewish Messiah will be a great leader, like a king or an army general and possibly lead us to military victory against our enemies.

And how does this work with a messiah described by the prophets?  Or is this just what YOU would like a messiah to be.  That’s what the jewish people wanted and that’s why they conspired to kill YHWH by nailing him to the tree he made with the nails he made…using the hands he made. 2. He will bring peace on earth.

I have peace.  Do..you have peace? 3. He will rebuild the temple and reestablish the animal sacrifices.

Oh that sounds fun.  He’ll come so as to reestablish sacrifices of animals? And what will you gain by this?  To know that you have the ability to kill a helpless animal?  It made a good rhehursal for those who would eventually kill him who was as a ‘lamb led to slaughter’. 4. He will ingather all the Jews to Israel.

Uhuh. 5. He will unite the world in the worship of one God.

Oh that’s going to happen. You bet.  I can just see everyone’s will being simultanously bent to worship God. 6. He will be completely observant of the 613 mitzvos of the torah. All Jews will be running to keep the 613 mitzvos.

Jesus kept all the commands of God.  Hmm. Maybe it was Him?  Ever think? 7. All of this will happen by national revelation. When the Messiah comes, EVERYONE will know and acknowledge him as such.

Where’d you get that..barney the dinasaur or something?  People knew who Y’shua was but they didn’t acknowledge him.  They killed him.  Just like the messiah the prophets talked about.  The prophets who your ancestors killed if you are jewish. When all of these things happen, then we will know the Messiah has come.

I know the messiah came because he did what he promised through all the prophecies pertaining to him.  Freedom comes in the spirit.  If you are looking for a world government of freedom in the near future you will be sadly disappointed I think. Now, here is what the messiah will not be/do: 1. He will be 100% human. No stories about God coming to earth in human form.

Oh yeah…wouldn’t want to have that.  A God who actually sees our fallen state of affairs and has compassion and does what love MUST do in that case; given that his spirit can be in all places at once.  What a lame God (aka satan) you serve. A God of love had no choice seeing man’s fallen state of affairs.  Of course..you probably think your ancestors were right in stoning the prophets.  -Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 2. He will not be a human sacrifice to atone for anyone else’s sins. The Messiah is not about atonement for sin at all. Although there will be a lot less sin, people will continue to atone through prayer and through the reinsituted animal sacrifices at the rebuilt temple. 3. He will reaffirm the torah law, not dispense with it, not criticize it, not transgress it. Best regards, —Cindy S.

Response:

What are the criteria that scholarly Christians, Jews and others would apply to verify the truth or falsehood of a supposed Messiah? 1. The Jewish Messiah will be a great leader, like a king or an army general and possibly lead us to military victory against our enemies. And how does this work with a messiah described by the prophets?

Perfectly. It is the description of the messiah before the description was corrupted by Christianity. Or is this just what YOU would like a messiah to be.  That’s what the jewish people wanted and that’s why they conspired to kill YHWH by nailing him to the tree he made with the nails he made…using the hands he made. 2. He will bring peace on earth. I have peace.  Do..you have peace?

There is peace on earth? Really? No nations at war? Really? 3. He will rebuild the temple and reestablish the animal sacrifices. Oh that sounds fun.  He’ll come so as to reestablish sacrifices of animals? And what will you gain by this?  To know that you have the ability to kill a helpless animal?  It made a good rhehursal for those who would eventually kill him who was as a ‘lamb led to slaughter’.

I.e., no refutation. Just a bunch of rude remarks. 4. He will ingather all the Jews to Israel. Uhuh. 5. He will unite the world in the worship of one God. Oh that’s going to happen. You bet.  I can just see everyone’s will being simultanously bent to worship God.

More rudeness and stupidity. Of course, the idea of a man-god is so much more sensible. snip remainder of stupidity Best regards, —Cindy S.

Response:

Perfectly. It is the description of the messiah before the description was corrupted by Christianity.

Oh wowww…I didn’t know that. Gee you’re so well informed.  Thanks for the incredible SUPPORT you lend to your stupid statement too!  Where would I be without that bibliography of sources you supplied huh? Why, I’d be just another guy out there believing every internet moron troll that comes along yesirreee that’s who I’d be.     Reading from the texts that were apparently corrupted by christianity before there were any christians…I SEE in reality that the focus is pretty much everywhere I read on man’s sin/separation from God INCLUDING YOURS CINDY.  Yes you are separated from God too but he doesn’t want that. He says so over and over.  Randomly open the bible to the middle somewhere..ahh Isaiah 59 is our lucky page of the day (I’m serious.  That is where I turned)..Reading it says "Behold the Lord’shand is not so short that he cannot save, neither his ear so dull he cannot hear".  Hmm.Sounds like we’re talking about people in need of salvation again probably eh? Let’s read on.     "But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear"      YES Cindylu who…..you…have a problem.  Sin.  God doesn’t hear you because of the sin that has separated you from him.  No matter how you cry out and pray…not that you do that…but ya know… "For your hands are defiled with blood"  That’s the blood of the people you deceive daily Cindy. "and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken falsehood, your tongue mutters wickedness"…dude…I did NOT preplan this.  The scripture is full of this kind of thing.  I mean I turned in Isaiah’s general direction I’ll admit but this is seriously the first one I put my finger on. "no one sues righeously and no one pleads honestly.  They trust in confusion and speak lies; they conceive mischief and bring forth iniquity".  and on and on it goes talking IN GENERAL about your ancestors Cindy.  This is YOUR prophecy.  From a prophet of Israel.  Not something christians generated. It comes right out of the prophet Isaiah but you wouldn’t know that because the Rabbi’s don’t teach you jack about your own religion it appears.   Yes there were people who wrote down the books over and over because they didn’t have copy machines back then ya know.   The evidence that these are the original words from the original hebrew translated to English as best we can in the NASB is MUCH…stronger than you are Cindy.  Nobody believes you. Nobody cares about your lies.  Go tell them where someone cares.          Meanwhile on down I sense we’re moving to a solution in Isaiah here.  A messiah who will deliver people from WHAT?  From baaaddd people who oppress them?  No ya dingaling. You ARE the bad person. You are a sinner. You need someone to save you from the perpetual sin that has plagued YOUR people and MY people.  Israel was chosen to bless the nations.  Know where that’s found? Of course you don’t. You poor ignorant pawn of the religious system your are brainwashed by.  READ YOUR OWN TEXT.  Hit the rabbi with a bat and take the text from him if necessary and READ IT.  Grief.  He’ll never tell you what’s in there straight out.     After all this clarification of man’s desperate need, in verse 16 as it’s marked in a bible I have here, it says Isaiah recorded that ‘he saw that there was no man, and was astonished that there was no one to intercede.  Then his own arm brought salvation to him and his righteousness upheld him.  And he put on righteousness like a breastplate and a helmet of salvation on his head and he put on garments of vengeance for his clothing and wrapped himself with zeal as a mantle.  According to their deeds so he will repay.  Wrath to his adversaries, recompense to his enemies.  To the coastlands he will make recompense.  So they will fear the name of the Lord."  etc. as he sets straight that there will be perspective here.  Then in chapter 60 it continues that ‘your light has come and the glory of the lord has risen upon you".  This in response to the spiritual darkness discussed.  NOT darkness because of oppressive governments or the lack of having everybody in a big koombuyaaahh party! Hehe. no..the darkness in your wicked little heart Cindy.  And my wicked heart.  Without his truth I’d have nothing good to tell you today.  I’d be like the racist Muslims in response to YOUR racist comments.  They think THEY are the chosen ones (to get all the goodies) and YOU think the same.  You’re just a racist pig just like them.  God didn’t mean that.  Look at your history.  He ‘chose’ you to bless the nations by 1) Showing that nobody can uphold the law (then he says it again and again in case it still didn’t get through your thick skull) 2) Showing that God is patient and keeps trying everything possible to call us to him. "How often like a chicken gathers her chicks under her wing…" in reference to how he would have protected Israel.  My God loves you.  I love you.  But your people have forsaken him.  It says so in your own text. Why think you are any different?  Especially since you don’t even know your own texts. 3) To bring forth the messiah through you!   I need a messiah too Cindy.  I’m a person.  Your racist pig mind thinks I’m a dog.  Well…this dog loves the God that your people have hated for mellenia.  Think about it.  Here I am a gentile trying to tell you what your own text says. how very sad.     Isaiah 53 talks about who the messiah really is more and how he’ll be recognized.  But EVERYWHERE the context cries out "Cindy is wrong…cindy is wrong"..and all Cindy can say is ‘no I’m right, the rabbi TOLD me so!" Whoop.  De…dooo.. -Bob

Response:

Well…I would say this post speaks for itself. And to think your time could have been better spent doing something productive. [Nothing snipped] Best regards, —Cindy S.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Perfectly. It is the description of the messiah before the description was corrupted by Christianity. Oh wowww…I didn’t know that. Gee you’re so well informed.  Thanks for the incredible SUPPORT you lend to your stupid statement too!  Where would I be without that bibliography of sources you supplied huh? Why, I’d be just another guy out there believing every internet moron troll that comes along yesirreee that’s who I’d be.     Reading from the texts that were apparently corrupted by christianity before there were any christians…I SEE in reality that the focus is pretty much everywhere I read on man’s sin/separation from God INCLUDING YOURS CINDY.  Yes you are separated from God too but he doesn’t want that. He says so over and over.  Randomly open the bible to the middle somewhere..ahh Isaiah 59 is our lucky page of the day (I’m serious.  That is where I turned)..Reading it says "Behold the Lord’shand is not so short that he cannot save, neither his ear so dull he cannot hear".  Hmm.Sounds like we’re talking about people in need of salvation again probably eh? Let’s read on.     "But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear"      YES Cindylu who…..you…have a problem.  Sin.  God doesn’t hear you because of the sin that has separated you from him.  No matter how you cry out and pray…not that you do that…but ya know… "For your hands are defiled with blood"  That’s the blood of the people you deceive daily Cindy. "and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken falsehood, your tongue mutters wickedness"…dude…I did NOT preplan this.  The scripture is full of this kind of thing.  I mean I turned in Isaiah’s general direction I’ll admit but this is seriously the first one I put my finger on. "no one sues righeously and no one pleads honestly.  They trust in confusion and speak lies; they conceive mischief and bring forth iniquity".  and on and on it goes talking IN GENERAL about your ancestors Cindy.  This is YOUR prophecy.  From a prophet of Israel.  Not something christians generated. It comes right out of the prophet Isaiah but you wouldn’t know that because the Rabbi’s don’t teach you jack about your own religion it appears.   Yes there were people who wrote down the books over and over because they didn’t have copy machines back then ya know.   The evidence that these are the original words from the original hebrew translated to English as best we can in the NASB is MUCH…stronger than you are Cindy.  Nobody believes you. Nobody cares about your lies.  Go tell them where someone cares.          Meanwhile on down I sense we’re moving to a solution in Isaiah here.  A messiah who will deliver people from WHAT?  From baaaddd people who oppress them?  No ya dingaling. You ARE the bad person. You are a sinner. You need someone to save you from the perpetual sin that has plagued YOUR people and MY people.  Israel was chosen to bless the nations.  Know where that’s found? Of course you don’t. You poor ignorant pawn of the religious system your are brainwashed by.  READ YOUR OWN TEXT.  Hit the rabbi with a bat and take the text from him if necessary and READ IT.  Grief.  He’ll never tell you what’s in there straight out.     After all this clarification of man’s desperate need, in verse 16 as it’s marked in a bible I have here, it says Isaiah recorded that ‘he saw that there was no man, and was astonished that there was no one to intercede.  Then his own arm brought salvation to him and his righteousness upheld him.  And he put on righteousness like a breastplate and a helmet of salvation on his head and he put on garments of vengeance for his clothing and wrapped himself with zeal as a mantle.  According to their deeds so he will repay.  Wrath to his adversaries, recompense to his enemies.  To the coastlands he will make recompense.  So they will fear the name of the Lord."  etc. as he sets straight that there will be perspective here. Then in chapter 60 it continues that ‘your light has come and the glory of the lord has risen upon you".  This in response to the spiritual darkness discussed.  NOT darkness because of oppressive governments or the lack of having everybody in a big koombuyaaahh party! Hehe. no..the darkness in your wicked little heart Cindy.  And my wicked heart.  Without his truth I’d have nothing good to tell you today.  I’d be like the racist Muslims in response to YOUR racist comments.  They think THEY are the chosen ones (to get all the goodies) and YOU think the same.  You’re just a racist pig just like them.  God didn’t mean that.  Look at your history.  He ‘chose’ you to bless the nations by 1) Showing that nobody can uphold the law (then he says it again and again in case it still didn’t get through your thick skull) 2) Showing that God is patient and keeps trying everything possible to call us to him. "How often like a chicken gathers her chicks under her wing…" in reference to how he would have protected Israel.  My God loves you.  I love you.  But your people have forsaken him.  It says so in your own text. Why think you are any different?  Especially since you don’t even know your own texts. 3) To bring forth the messiah through you!   I need a messiah too Cindy.  I’m a person.  Your racist pig mind thinks I’m a dog.  Well…this dog loves the God that your people have hated for mellenia.  Think about it.  Here I am a gentile trying to tell you what your own text says. how very sad.     Isaiah 53 talks about who the messiah really is more and how he’ll be recognized.  But EVERYWHERE the context cries out "Cindy is wrong…cindy is wrong"..and all Cindy can say is ‘no I’m right, the rabbi TOLD me so!" Whoop.  De…dooo.. -Bob

Response:

Typical missionizing posting.  Tell people how horrible they are and then expect them to fall all over themselves trying to get right with an abuser. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

 I need a messiah too Cindy.  I’m a person.  Your racist pig mind thinks I’m a dog.

What a charmer. As I said, his post speaks for itself. I think you should take a long walk off a short dock. [...] Here I am a gentile trying to tell you what your own text says. how very sad.

Too bad, he needs to read it in translation. Best regards, —Cindy S. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why not take your lord’s advice?  Matt. 23:1-3 — regards, Fred "Verbing weirds language." — Calvin

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Non constructive criticism always welcome Cindy.  Anyone else wanna show their true colors in more vivid detail?  If you had love you would be concerned about confused people.  I’m concerned about you because I love you.  You’d as soon I go to hell..and fortunately for me..you don’t get to design hell or see to it as to who goes there .  Thank you Lord Y’shua the branch.  As Zechariah noted.  Out from him all good things grow.  Vain disputes aren’t good but that’s why I use you like Y’shua used the pharisees to enlighten anyone who happens to be watching instead of being bummed that you don’t listen.  You don’t want to good news, we’ll take it to whoever does.  I CONSIDER the preaching of the good news productive.  To you it’s foolishness I know.  YOU think it’s not a waste of time to banter out of your own dogma with no other witness babble about a messiah that will come and do a bunch of good stuff for your race.  Great.  Have a better one. -Bob

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well…I would say this post speaks for itself. And to think your time could have been better spent doing something productive. [Nothing snipped] Best regards, —Cindy S. Perfectly. It is the description of the messiah before the description was corrupted by Christianity. Oh wowww…I didn’t know that. Gee you’re so well informed.  Thanks for the incredible SUPPORT you lend to your stupid statement too!  Where would I be without that bibliography of sources you supplied huh? Why, I’d be just another guy out there believing every internet moron troll that comes along yesirreee that’s who I’d be.     Reading from the texts that were apparently corrupted by christianity before there were any christians…I SEE in reality that the focus is pretty much everywhere I read on man’s sin/separation from God INCLUDING YOURS CINDY.  Yes you are separated from God too but he doesn’t want that. He says so over and over.  Randomly open the bible to the middle somewhere..ahh Isaiah 59 is our lucky page of the day (I’m serious.  That is where I turned)..Reading it says "Behold the Lord’shand is not so short that he cannot save, neither his ear so dull he cannot hear".  Hmm.Sounds like we’re talking about people in need of salvation again probably eh? Let’s read on.     "But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear"      YES Cindylu who…..you…have a problem.  Sin.  God doesn’t hear you because of the sin that has separated you from him.  No matter how you cry out and pray…not that you do that…but ya know… "For your hands are defiled with blood"  That’s the blood of the people you deceive daily Cindy. "and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken falsehood, your tongue mutters wickedness"…dude…I did NOT preplan this.  The scripture is full of this kind of thing.  I mean I turned in Isaiah’s general direction I’ll admit but this is seriously the first one I put my finger on. "no one sues righeously and no one pleads honestly.  They trust in confusion and speak lies; they conceive mischief and bring forth iniquity".  and on and on it goes talking IN GENERAL about your ancestors Cindy.  This is YOUR prophecy.  From a prophet of Israel.  Not something christians generated. It comes right out of the prophet Isaiah but you wouldn’t know that because the Rabbi’s don’t teach you jack about your own religion it appears. Yes there were people who wrote down the books over and over because they didn’t have copy machines back then ya know.   The evidence that these are the original words from the original hebrew translated to English as best we can in the NASB is MUCH…stronger than you are Cindy.  Nobody believes you. Nobody cares about your lies.  Go tell them where someone cares.          Meanwhile on down I sense we’re moving to a solution in Isaiah here.  A messiah who will deliver people from WHAT?  From baaaddd people who oppress them?  No ya dingaling. You ARE the bad person. You are a sinner. You need someone to save you from the perpetual sin that has plagued YOUR people and MY people.  Israel was chosen to bless the nations.  Know where that’s found? Of course you don’t. You poor ignorant pawn of the religious system your are brainwashed by.  READ YOUR OWN TEXT.  Hit the rabbi with a bat and take the text from him if necessary and READ IT.  Grief.  He’ll never tell you what’s in there straight out.     After all this clarification of man’s desperate need, in verse 16 as it’s marked in a bible I have here, it says Isaiah recorded that ‘he saw that there was no man, and was astonished that there was no one to intercede.  Then his own arm brought salvation to him and his righteousness upheld him.  And he put on righteousness like a breastplate and a helmet of salvation on his head and he put on garments of vengeance for his clothing and wrapped himself with zeal as a mantle.  According to their deeds so he will repay.  Wrath to his adversaries, recompense to his enemies.  To the coastlands he will make recompense.  So they will fear the name of the Lord."  etc. as he sets straight that there will be perspective here. Then in chapter 60 it continues that ‘your light has come and the glory of the lord has risen upon you".  This in response to the spiritual darkness discussed.  NOT darkness because of oppressive governments or the lack of having everybody in a big koombuyaaahh party! Hehe. no..the darkness in your wicked little heart Cindy.  And my wicked heart.  Without his truth I’d have nothing good to tell you today.  I’d be like the racist Muslims in response to YOUR racist comments.  They think THEY are the chosen ones (to get all the goodies) and YOU think the same.  You’re just a racist pig just like them.  God didn’t mean that.  Look at your history.  He ‘chose’ you to bless the nations by 1) Showing that nobody can uphold the law (then he says it again and again in case it still didn’t get through your thick skull) 2) Showing that God is patient and keeps trying everything possible to call us to him. "How often like a chicken gathers her chicks under her wing…" in reference to how he would have protected Israel.  My God loves you. I love you.  But your people have forsaken him.  It says so in your own text. Why think you are any different?  Especially since you don’t even know your own texts. 3) To bring forth the messiah through you!   I need a messiah too Cindy.  I’m a person.  Your racist pig mind thinks I’m a dog.  Well…this dog loves the God that your people have hated for mellenia.  Think about it.  Here I am a gentile trying to tell you what your own text says. how very sad.     Isaiah 53 talks about who the messiah really is more and how he’ll be recognized.  But EVERYWHERE the context cries out "Cindy is wrong…cindy is wrong"..and all Cindy can say is ‘no I’m right, the rabbi TOLD me so!" Whoop.  De…dooo.. -Bob

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 I need a messiah too Cindy.  I’m a person.  Your racist pig mind thinks I’m a dog. I think you should take a long walk off a short dock.

Well whatever Fred.  :-) That’s the nicest thing anyone’s said to me all day.  THanks for being so..positive… [...] Here I am a gentile trying to tell you what your own text says. how very sad. Why not take your lord’s advice?  Matt. 23:1-3

It’s not advice.  It’s a command.  Take a language course Fred. It doesn’t say "My son I advise you…" It says "The sribes..etc….therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them."      In those days they actually read from the text Fred.  If they still said that then it would be appropriate to teach people this STILL!  However if Y’shua were here today he’d say "Go read your own text and stop listening to those who babble of their vain imaginations" or the like.  I’m YET to meet a person who is of the Jewish faith who knows what their own text says. That is so sad.  Please, let one step FORWARD and let us discuss reasonably the things spoken therein.  Not just offensive people who tell me to kill myself or whatever then spout forth their ignorance not only of language but of the context of things.  -Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — regards, Fred "Verbing weirds language." — Calvin

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Heil!  I mean…uhh patricia.  I haven’t abused anyone.  I’ve never hit anyone in my life actually save a gentle thwack to a guy’s jaw who insisted on stealing my tools so he could buy heroin in Eugene, OR.  However verbally these people POSTED to the group I READ which is NOT their personal little group.  If people cross post they get what they’re asking for.   THE ORIGINAL XPOSTERS are the ‘missionary posters’.  I’m just correcting their false information here.  If someone tells a lie I’ll call them a liar.  If they refuse to respond to context and OFFER ABUSIVE CRITICISM…then why are you calling me the abuser?   I reason with people.  If you can’t take what you are dishing..don’t dish it.  -Bob

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Typical missionizing posting.  Tell people how horrible they are and then expect them to fall all over themselves trying to get right with an abuser.

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Author.  The benevolent bobby wookie babba Ya know when people start arguing about which PERSON is right on a matter…I tend to just back up and…do the math.  Ya know?  Like no matter how many people tell me that 2+2 is 3 or 5 or the square root of 59…I’m not going to believe them because there is truth that I know regarding this. It is founded on absolute principles of truth!  I could TRY to have constructive thought process with the people who seem to be mockers who have flailed into this cross posting venture.  We could put forth some choice questions that would ‘narrow the logical field’ here..like so: AGREE OR DISAGREE: 1) YHWH created human kind.  y/n 2) He did so for his good pleasure y/n   (if no, post another motive he might have had!  I mean..after all..what are we good for?  He didn’t have enough people to till his ground?  He enjoys watching a good war movie?  Good horror movie?  A good sex flick? WHAT IS IT? I’m all ears!) 3) It is his good pleasure that we would know and walk with him AS Adam and Eve did in the Garden. (ie. since that was his original created design according to Genesis…can we agree that maybe he is into having that STILL? Or do you think it was like a TOY that got worn out after the first few rounds?  Yes…or no?)   (Ouch…that has GOT to hurt ) 4)  Ok, now that I’ve beaten/abused you with the power of my reasoning (and if you weren’t deceivers who hate the truth it wouldn’t be that of course as HEIL calls it…. Couldn’t have picked a better name for that one…ayieeee…)  can we all agree that the purpose of the messiah just MIGHT have do with reconciling us to that state of being again?  That THIS…might actually be the nature of our messiah’s task; not to deliver evil people from evil people.  hehehe.  Yes or no Ok, I think anyone who is still reading this realizes they’ve been had.  If you want ME to keep intruding in your little group..you just keep cross posting. Ok?  I know you aren’t all going to kill file me.  The religious users in your group are scared half to death of what I’m saying here. So they’re in kind of a catch 22.  If they shut up, it will appear that I have won the debate…not that it already doesn’t.  If they keep talking, I’ll keep posting rebuttals and tagging on the truth!  They know the power it has to deliver people from the spell they are under.  God loves us.  So much that he humbled himself to the form of a servant; the only LOGICAL ABSOLUTE LOVE MOVE he could put on the earth given its sad condition.  Thank you lord that you loved me enough to go through this.  To be abused and killed by those who saught after religious authority that they could control.  And to say ‘father forgive them for they know not what they do". And many still know not what they do. So…you just keep xposting and I’ll keep tellin’ em. Ok?  -Bob

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Signs of Moshiach: Sources Author: Rabbi Emmanuel Schochet

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What are the criteria that scholarly Christians, Jews and others would apply to verify the truth or falsehood of a supposed Messiah? 1. The Jewish Messiah will be a great leader, like a king or an army general and possibly lead us to military victory against our enemies. And how does this work with a messiah described by the prophets? Perfectly. It is the description of the messiah before the description was corrupted by Christianity.

I thought that was "divinely-inspired non-divine leader to the promised land annointed by the horn of oil"  where leader to the promised land figuratively means instigator of a new age, and the horn of oil figuratively means waning crescent inspiration.    However I am not Jewish, or atheist or Catholic any more, but am the current global Opener of the Way/Messiah global glue/balancing figure and am not in a religion and am not starting one, and it will probably be true that past Jewish figures and even current Jewish religious leaders will remain more prominent within Judaism than I am, but I am the global figure, with big hopes for Passover full moon. David http://www.nfld.com/~dalton

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What, no piercing of hands and feet (as in my thorns), no bow in the clouds (as in my waning crescent stuff), no rose of Sharon/burning (glowing) in the bush (blue rose vision), no lily of the valley/dove (my "dove/etc." visions), no "wilderness" years etc.? David

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Oh no, now I am regretting the choice of crossposting. But anyway, there is no someone that is both all powerful and perfectly good and so God, the all powerful ultimate creator, is not perfectly good, and we are in God’s image in the sense that we are also not perfectly good, but the deal is to try and improve. David http://www.nfld.com/~dalton

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What are the criteria that scholarly Christians, Jews and others would apply to verify the truth or falsehood of a supposed Messiah? 1. The Jewish Messiah will be a great leader, like a king or an army general and possibly lead us to military victory against our enemies. And how does this work with a messiah described by the prophets? Perfectly. It is the description of the messiah before the description was corrupted by Christianity. I thought that was "divinely-inspired non-divine leader to the promised land annointed by the horn of oil"  where leader to the promised land figuratively means instigator of a new age, and the horn of oil figuratively means waning crescent inspiration.

I’m not sure what you mean by "waning crescent inspiration" but Jewish kings and priests were literally annointed with oil. I don’t think this is meant figuratively as the Jewish messiah will also be "great" in terms of being a king or a big military leader. And for Jews, the "promised land" quite literally refers to the physical Land of Israel. However I am not Jewish, or atheist or Catholic any more, but am the current global Opener of the Way/Messiah global glue/balancing figure and am not in a religion and am not starting one, and it will probably be true that past Jewish figures and even current Jewish religious leaders will remain more prominent within Judaism than I am, but I am the global figure, with big hopes for Passover full moon.

I hope I we were able to answer your questions regarding the Jewish view of the messiah. Best regards, —Cindy S. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – David http://www.nfld.com/~dalton

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 snippage A few years back when rebbe Schneerson died in Brooklyn, he followers were convinced he was the Messiah. So after he died, the cemetery was filled with his followers for the first 3 days. Why? Because they were convinced he would rise from the dead after 3 days. I wonder where they got the idea from that the messiah would do that?

While there are some Lubavitchers who believe that the dead rebbe is the messiah and will eventually come back, I have never heard anything about "3 days." The rebbe has now been dead for years, and these same individuals are still insisting that he will be returning, so I don’t know what this "3 days" is all about. Anyway, 3 days, or 3 years, or 3 millenia, none of this is Jewish belief anyway.  This ongoing insistence on the part of some individuals that the dead rebbe is the messiah is an embarassment to a very large percentage of the Jewish people (namely all the rest, i.e., the vast majority of Jews who hold that the belief that a dead man could be the messiah is outright heresy). Best regards, —Cindy S.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Read the FAQ http://www.pacificnet.net/~faigin/SCJ/faq/index.html What are the criteria that scholarly Christians, Jews and others "Forbidden You don’t have permission to access /~faigin/SCJ/faq/intro.html on this server." Nice try. Under the index, type in the word "messiah" and click on "find." All kinds of information appears.

Well, it seems that some Jews want there to be only one religion, but there are many flowers in the garden. Good night, David

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What are the criteria that scholarly Christians, Jews and others would apply to verify the truth or falsehood of a supposed Messiah? 1. The Jewish Messiah will be a great leader, like a king or an army general and possibly lead us to military victory against our enemies. And how does this work with a messiah described by the prophets? Perfectly. It is the description of the messiah before the description was corrupted by Christianity. I thought that was "divinely-inspired non-divine leader to the promised land annointed by the horn of oil"  where leader to the promised land figuratively means instigator of a new age, and the horn of oil figuratively means waning crescent inspiration.    However I am not Jewish, or atheist or Catholic any more, but am the current global Opener of the Way/Messiah global glue/balancing figure and am

global mosaic glue, but no melting pot religion not in a religion and am not starting one, and it will probably be true that past Jewish figures and even current Jewish religious leaders will remain more prominent within Judaism than I am, but I am the global figure, with big hopes for Passover

global Opener of the Way (nothing to do as far as I know with that Egyptian figure someone mentioned, it means leader to the promised land, leader to a new age) for my people (all humans, over 6 billion, of all religions and atheism and agnosticism and humanism) on this planet and in near space (e.g. on the space station). And obviously many scholars may not know certain criteria for avatar, buddha, Prophet, Jewish messiah and Christian Messiah and Islamic Messenger figures since if they were well known you would have more cult-leader wannabees faking them, so some may only be known to the very innermost circles of religions with long traditions, and I bet are unlikely to post them.   Also I am not disputing the claim that there was a last Prophet of Islam since I am not in Islam but am attempting a global balancing which may inspire some renewal within Islam by Muslims and said renewal may just require some reinterpretation and the coming to light of hidden evidence. However my web page is a mess in need of edits which I might not get to for a while since I am working on a geophysics (mostly applied mathematics in my case) Ph.D. and so can only devote maybe ten hours a week to the Internet and much of that I have been eating up with newsgroup activity. For those who have seen Sarah McLachlan’s Fallen video, does that make her a fallen woman? Good night, David http://www.nfld.com/~dalton – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -full moon. David http://www.nfld.com/~dalton

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Also I do not want followers of me or of anyone, I want people to think for themselves.     David

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