Christianity QA

Strange, Isn't it?

admin — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Fred, " I do wonder why I exist at times." – A question I ask myself off and on. I have no answer but since I believe in God, maybe that’s where this puzzle we call life all comes full circle… smiles, Elise "Each man’s life touches so many other lives, and when he isn’t around he leaves an awful hole, doesn’t he?"~*~ ~ Clarence ~ George Bailey’s Guardian Angel from the film, "It’s a Wonderful Life" I do wonder why I exist at times. I do know that I have been directly responsible for saving 2 peoples lives. I guess this is one of my purposes. My life has not turned out like I wanted it but I still hang on. There are times where I wish I could just sublimate – just vaporize into a non-existant state. Not having to go through a suicide but just to disappear. I know this is not possible so I just go on. — The charter is available at:http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm — The charter is available at:http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm – Show quoted text –

One of the more interesting things is how my faith in God has increased and how my faith in the Christian religion has waned. I used to be forced to go to Sunday school when I had bad ADHD. Being forced to sit still in Sunday school and then being fed with things that I didn’t beleive in was excutiating. As I grew older, I believed less and less. There is a supreme being or divine spirit that holds everything together. Both the genetic code for the impulses in the human brain and the expanding universe are both totally beyond my scope of comprehension but the fact that both exist are proof that some supreme being has the power to create and direct both. I just look at Christmas as a time of giving and Thanksgiving for family, food, and shelter and any other blessing that you have. Not the Roman pagan holiday that this day stems from. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Each man’s life touches so many other lives, and when he isn’t around he leaves an awful hole, doesn’t he?"~*~ ~ Clarence ~ George Bailey’s Guardian Angel from the film, "It’s a Wonderful Life" I do wonder why I exist at times. I do know that I have been directly responsible for saving 2 peoples lives. I guess this is one of my purposes. My life has not turned out like I wanted it but I still hang on. There are times where I wish I could just sublimate – just vaporize into a non-existant state. Not having to go through a suicide but just to disappear. I know this is not possible so I just go on.

You are not alone. Sometimes I feel the same. Saving 2 lifes was one of your purposes, but I know what you mean. Sometimes you wonder in general, what the purpose of your life is. Just my own thoughts and observations, but it seems to me that people who have had very fulfilling busy lives, good health, satisfying relationships and got most things they want in life – not material things in particular seem to be the happiest. I always wish I had had better relationships, which gives your life so much more fulfillment and purpose. People who have not felt they had the best life because of circumstances or luck or bad choices they made, can have a lot of regrets. I read a good article about regrets recently and those were some of the thoughts the article conveyed. Everybody has some regrets, but some people seem to be able to move on past them better than others. But we all have our own genetic makeup, coping abilities, individual natures, personalities, life experiences, and have to live within our own limitations which is not always easy and not always what we want to do. Just my own "off the top of my head" philosophical thoughts. Not exactly your topic, but a spinoff. Mary — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Fred, " I do wonder why I exist at times." – A question I ask myself off and on. I have no answer but since I believe in God, maybe that’s where this puzzle we call life all comes full circle… smiles, Elise

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

"Each man’s life touches so many other lives, and when he isn’t around he leaves an awful hole, doesn’t he?"~*~ ~ Clarence ~ George Bailey’s Guardian Angel from the film, "It’s a Wonderful Life" I do wonder why I exist at times. I do know that I have been directly responsible for saving 2 peoples lives. I guess this is one of my purposes. My life has not turned out like I wanted it but I still hang on. There are times where I wish I could just sublimate – just vaporize into a non-existant state. Not having to go through a suicide but just to disappear. I know this is not possible so I just go on. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

I do wonder why I exist at times. I do know that I have been directly responsible for saving 2 peoples lives. I guess this is one of my purposes. My life has not turned out like I wanted it but I still hang on. There are times where I wish I could just sublimate – just vaporize into a non-existant state. Not having to go through a suicide but just to disappear. I know this is not possible so I just go on.

I feel the same way, Fred. There is nothing else to do, but go on, so we go on. I’d love to vaporize, too. kili — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

OT question on Western Civilization – 3

admin — Tue, 20 Dec 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

A multiple choice question: The Hebrews originated in Mesopotamia and migrated to Canaan, or portion of which was later called Palestine. The Hebrew patriarchs–Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, so prominently depicted in the Old Testament–were chieftains of seminomadic clans that roamed Palestine and occasionaly journeyed to Mesopotamia and Egypt. Some Hebrews journeyed from Canaan to Egypt to settle and become herdsmen and farmers, but they eventually wanted to return to Canaan because: A) they didn’t like Egyptian food B) they were afraid of mummies C) there were too many flies and mosquitoes in the Nile river valley D) they eventually became forced laborers for the Egyptians, and were fearful of remaining permanent slaves E) looking at the tall pyramids made them dizzy — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

I know this one! It is ‘D’. I saw that film with Chuck Heston and Yul Brynner too — _TJ_

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A multiple choice question: The Hebrews originated in Mesopotamia and migrated to Canaan, or portion of which was later called Palestine. The Hebrew patriarchs–Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, so prominently depicted in the Old Testament–were chieftains of seminomadic clans that roamed Palestine and occasionaly journeyed to Mesopotamia and Egypt. Some Hebrews journeyed from Canaan to Egypt to settle and become herdsmen and farmers, but they eventually wanted to return to Canaan because: A) they didn’t like Egyptian food B) they were afraid of mummies C) there were too many flies and mosquitoes in the Nile river valley D) they eventually became forced laborers for the Egyptians, and were fearful of remaining permanent slaves E) looking at the tall pyramids made them dizzy

D/ but I like all the other reasons better. P. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

I know this one! It is ‘D’. I saw that film with Chuck Heston and Yul Brynner too

You mean the film after which the book was written by…er…benzobrain forgets the author’s name… P. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Okay, I’ll admit not knowing the answer to this specific question. Are we still studying Western Civilization, or are we getting into Christian Bible study now? Best Wishes, Arthur — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A multiple choice question: The Hebrews originated in Mesopotamia and migrated to Canaan, or portion of which was later called Palestine. The Hebrew patriarchs–Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, so prominently depicted in the Old Testament–were chieftains of seminomadic clans that roamed Palestine and occasionaly journeyed to Mesopotamia and Egypt. Some Hebrews journeyed from Canaan to Egypt to settle and become herdsmen and farmers, but they eventually wanted to return to Canaan because: A) they didn’t like Egyptian food B) they were afraid of mummies C) there were too many flies and mosquitoes in the Nile river valley D) they eventually became forced laborers for the Egyptians, and were fearful of remaining permanent slaves E) looking at the tall pyramids made them dizzy Okay, I’ll admit not knowing the answer to this specific question. Are we still studying Western Civilization, or are we getting into Christian Bible study now?

Arthur, all material comes from a textbook I’m reading called "Western Civilization: Ideas, Politics, and Society". Chip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Just checking. Hey, I thought I was the only person who read textbooks for fun. Best Wishes, Arthur — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Fun from the REBT department

admin — Fri, 11 Nov 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Philip Peters wrote : The majority opinion is that it could happen as a reaction to the rioting in France, Germany and even Belgium but that it’s not likely. Is there rioting in Germany and Belgium too? Forgot to add: a few relatively small riots in Germany but nothing like France. The German, Belgian and Rotterdam events seem to be *copycat* activity (not so sure about Germany though where suburbs are rather unpleasant too).

This reminds me of this oldie: They’re rioting in Africa, They’re starving in Spain. There’s hurricanes in Florida, And Texas needs rain The whole world is festering With unhappy souls. The French hate the Germans, The Germans hate the Poles; Italians hate Yugoslavs, South Africans hate the Dutch, And I don’t like anybody very much! But we can be tranquil And thankful and proud, For man’s been endowed With a mushroom-shaped cloud. And we know for certain That some lovely day Someone will set the spark off, And we will all be blown away! They’re rioting in Africa, There’s strife in Iran. What nature doesn’t do to us Will be done by our fellow man! The Merry Minuet, composed by Sheldon Hamrick — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Philip Peters wrote : The majority opinion is that it could happen as a reaction to the rioting in France, Germany and even Belgium but that it’s not likely. Is there rioting in Germany and Belgium too? Forgot to add: a few relatively small riots in Germany but nothing like France. The German, Belgian and Rotterdam events seem to be *copycat* activity (not so sure about Germany though where suburbs are rather unpleasant too). This reminds me of this oldie: They’re rioting in Africa, They’re starving in Spain. There’s hurricanes in Florida, And Texas needs rain The whole world is festering With unhappy souls. The French hate the Germans, The Germans hate the Poles; Italians hate Yugoslavs, South Africans hate the Dutch, And I don’t like anybody very much! But we can be tranquil And thankful and proud, For man’s been endowed With a mushroom-shaped cloud. And we know for certain That some lovely day Someone will set the spark off, And we will all be blown away! They’re rioting in Africa, There’s strife in Iran. What nature doesn’t do to us Will be done by our fellow man! The Merry Minuet, composed by Sheldon Hamrick

Good stuff! P. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Forgot to add: a few relatively small riots in Germany but nothing like France. The German, Belgian and Rotterdam events seem to be *copycat* activity (not so sure about Germany though where suburbs are rather unpleasant too). P. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Philip Peters wrote : The majority opinion is that it could happen as a reaction to the rioting in France, Germany and even Belgium but that it’s not likely.

Is there rioting in Germany and Belgium too? Dennis — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

There was some in Belgium (small scale) and in Rotterdam six cars were burnt. I still don’t think it will get out of hand here. Philip (but you never know) — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Inner Wisdom Revealed 4. I no longer need to punish, deceive, or compromise myself, unless I want to stay employed.

Been there, done that. 8. I honor my personality flaws for without them I would have no personality at all.

Nah. Speak for yourself! 9. Joan of Arc heard voices too.

*That* problem I don’t have, thank God (if you’ll pardon the expression.) 10. I am grateful that I am not as judgmental as all those censorious, self-righteous people around me.

Hear, hear! I judge those who are judgmental! Some ancient philosopher said, "You can see a Cynic’s pride through the holes in his shirt." A great collection! Dennis — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "4. I no longer need to punish, deceive, or compromise myself, unless I want to stay employed." That about sums up what my work place expects…but I do know what side of the line to stay on… smiles, Elise Yikeeeeeeeees doesn’t sound like a nice place to be Must be nice working for yourself, Miss Anna.

No way ! Has Miss Anna been behaving? ;)

Absloutely not ! Chip

Love from Anna — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

I think that depends on which news media you read/listen to. Most religions say, in one form or another, "Ours is the only true way and our god is the only true god." In that way, most religions encourage tension with other belief systems. Islam is no better or worse in this regard than other theologies. The problem in France right now seems to be economic class struggles with racial/religious elements that inflame everybody. Much like the hurricane disaster in New Orleans — the poor suffered the most, and in that area the poor were mostly African-Americans, which sparked cries of racism. Racism was certainly a factor, but it’s class discrimination that was the main culprit.

I agree the combinatin of economic discrimination and racial religious elements are very dangerous ! It always grieves me to see things like this current situation in France. I would hate to be suffering from anxiety/panic with all that violence around me.

yes it is a sad situation and a no win situation also. The only thing that could help is real emphaty and understanding ! Love from Anna — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

That calmed down again but there is increasing tension between between young Muslim guys and the autochtonous population. And the news media (in the USA) keep saying there is nothing inherent in Islam that encourages tension with other belief systems. IOW they say it’s not the religion but a group of fringe elements in the religion. Makes me wonder whether the news media says what is true, or what they want and hope to be true.

It’s true. 98% of the Dutch Muslim population is against any kind of violence. What one sees is that the confusion of living "in between" two cultures and feeling only partly accepted by the autochtonous population can make young Muslims an easy prey for those who are trying to recruit them for the *Jihad*; they radicalize easily as they need some kind of *goal* and some kind of alternative *family*. It’s like a sect. It’s most certainly not inherent to Islam as a whole. Philip Our suburbs are not really ghettos like the French ones though. Of course there is a lot of debate here whether the same thing will happen here. The majority opinion is that it could happen as a reaction to the rioting in France, Germany and even Belgium but that it’s not likely. i agree woith that assessment. Time will tell. Chip

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

"4. I no longer need to punish, deceive, or compromise myself, unless I want to stay employed." That about sums up what my work place expects…but I do know what side of the line to stay on… smiles, Elise Yikeeeeeeeees doesn’t sound like a nice place to be

Must be nice working for yourself, Miss Anna. Has Mr. Hendrick been behaving? ;) Has Miss Anna been behaving? ;) Chip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

"Chip" wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – On a more serious note, is there any rioting and burning in the Netherlands? Chip No, there isn’t. After the Van Gogh murder a year ago there was a beginning of racial riots but only in a very small way (relatively speaking) That calmed down again but there is increasing tension between between young Muslim guys and the autochtonous population. And the news media (in the USA) keep saying there is nothing inherent in Islam that encourages tension with other belief systems. IOW they say it’s not the religion but a group of fringe elements in the religion.

I think that it’s always the fanatics of any group who promote violence. Islam suffers from suicide bombers and their ilk, much like Christianity suffered from the Inquisition, among other atrocities. Makes me wonder whether the news media says what is true, or what they want and hope to be true.

Response:

On a more serious note, is there any rioting and burning in the Netherlands? Chip No, there isn’t. After the Van Gogh murder a year ago there was a beginning of racial riots but only in a very small way (relatively speaking) That calmed down again but there is increasing tension between between young Muslim guys and the autochtonous population.

And the news media (in the USA) keep saying there is nothing inherent in Islam that encourages tension with other belief systems. IOW they say it’s not the religion but a group of fringe elements in the religion. Makes me wonder whether the news media says what is true, or what they want and hope to be true. Our suburbs are not really ghettos like the French ones though. Of course there is a lot of debate here whether the same thing will happen here. The majority opinion is that it could happen as a reaction to the rioting in France, Germany and even Belgium but that it’s not likely. i agree woith that assessment.

Time will tell. Chip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

9. Joan of Arc heard voices too. And she lead the French army and kicked the English out of France. Not too many people who hear voices can do that. Not many people who don’t hear voices do it either. As a matter of fact it’s now considered bad form.

One never knows when something will come back into fashion. On a more serious note, is there any rioting and burning in the Netherlands? Chip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

No, there isn’t. After the Van Gogh murder a year ago there was a beginning of racial riots but only in a very small way (relatively speaking) That calmed down again but there is increasing tension between between young Muslim guys and the autochtonous population. Our suburbs are not really ghettos like the French ones though. Of course there is a lot of debate here whether the same thing will happen here. The majority opinion is that it could happen as a reaction to the rioting in France, Germany and even Belgium but that it’s not likely. i agree woith that assessment. Philip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

9. Joan of Arc heard voices too. And she lead the French army and kicked the English out of France. Not too many people who hear voices can do that.

Not many people who don’t hear voices do it either. As a matter of fact it’s now considered bad form. P. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

And then France let the English back in when they built the chunnel!

Very true. But then the chunnel goes both ways. P. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Inner Wisdom Revealed 1. As I let go of my feelings of guilt, I am in touch with my inner sociopath. 2. I have the power to channel my imagination into ever-soaring levels of suspicion and paranoia. 3. I assume full responsibility for my actions, except the ones that are someone else’s fault. 4. I no longer need to punish, deceive, or compromise myself, unless I want to stay employed. 5. In some cultures, what I do would be considered normal. 6. Having control over myself is almost as good as having control over others. 7. My intuition nearly makes up for my lack of self-judgment. 8. I honor my personality flaws for without them I would have no personality at all. 9. Joan of Arc heard voices too. 10. I am grateful that I am not as judgmental as all those censorious, self-righteous people around me. 11. I need not suffer in silence while I can still moan, whimper, and complain. 12. As I learn the innermost secrets of people around me, they reward me in many ways to keep me quiet. 13. When someone hurts me, I know that forgiveness is cheaper than a lawsuit, but not nearly as gratifying. 14. The first step is to say nice things about myself. The second, to do nice things for myself. The third, to find someone to buy me nice things. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Yikeeeeeeeees doesn’t sound like a nice place to be Love from Anna — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 9. Joan of Arc heard voices too. And she lead the French army and kicked the English out of France. Not too many people who hear voices can do that. Not many people who don’t hear voices do it either. As a matter of fact it’s now considered bad form. One never knows when something will come back into fashion. On a more serious note, is there any rioting and burning in the Netherlands? Chip No, there isn’t. After the Van Gogh murder a year ago there was a beginning of racial riots but only in a very small way (relatively speaking) That calmed down again but there is increasing tension between between young Muslim guys and the autochtonous population. Our suburbs are not really ghettos like the French ones though. Of course there is a lot of debate here whether the same thing will happen here. The majority opinion is that it could happen as a reaction to the rioting in France, Germany and even Belgium but that it’s not likely. i agree woith that assessment. Philip

OTOH there are some women going through meno pause that are most likely want to start a riot hahahahaha Love from Anna — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

And then France let the English back in when they built the chunnel! — there is no .sig

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 9. Joan of Arc heard voices too. And she lead the French army and kicked the English out of France. Not too many people who hear voices can do that. Chip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

9. Joan of Arc heard voices too.

And she lead the French army and kicked the English out of France. Not too many people who hear voices can do that. Chip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Inner Wisdom Revealed 1. As I let go of my feelings of guilt, I am in touch with my inner sociopath. 2. I have the power to channel my imagination into ever-soaring levels of suspicion and paranoia. 3. I assume full responsibility for my actions, except the ones that are someone else’s fault. 4. I no longer need to punish, deceive, or compromise myself, unless I want to stay employed. 5. In some cultures, what I do would be considered normal. 6. Having control over myself is almost as good as having control over others. 7. My intuition nearly makes up for my lack of self-judgment. 8. I honor my personality flaws for without them I would have no personality at all. 9. Joan of Arc heard voices too. 10. I am grateful that I am not as judgmental as all those censorious, self-righteous people around me. 11. I need not suffer in silence while I can still moan, whimper, and complain. 12. As I learn the innermost secrets of people around me, they reward me in many ways to keep me quiet. 13. When someone hurts me, I know that forgiveness is cheaper than a lawsuit, but not nearly as gratifying. 14. The first step is to say nice things about myself. The second, to do nice things for myself. The third, to find someone to buy me nice things.

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

LOL. Like it.

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

We must be seeing the same Dr.!!! ;-) Tono — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

What is the biggest lie? on this planet…

admin — Sun, 30 Oct 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Your Name Here=Harvey wrote: > eg. > That death is the ‘end’. Life continues on, death is merely a transistion > phase. The religions – Judaism, Christianity and Islam have got it all wrong – > don’t believe a word they say about it (and other stuff too). > That there is a "God" (strange isn’t it, that the God of the Jews and > Christians and Muslims are very very very similiar to each other). > There isn’t one or ones, etc. It is all a lie, a con foistered upon the > unsuspecting public, all for power and control. Religions are power > control mechanisms which look after themselves first and foremost. > They are not spiritual organisations – they only put on that front and air, > that they are, and they have fooled the public into believing this. > That UFOs are not real. They are part of our human history. > Always was, is and will be. > Those will do for starters – there are many more, as big… > Harvey

George Bush dragging America into a war based on lies. Amazingly, there is no talk of impeachment… yet Clinton was impeached for something that was essentially personal business.

Response:

In article , michaela says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Your Name Here=Harvey wrote: >> Christianity has to grow up, or be seriously left behind, or ignored >> altogether if it doesn’t change in the changing environment of >> everyday >> life. But even this is not sufficient for it to survive – because it >> is simply, not based upon ‘truth’ at all, or what happened, as regards >> the figure of ‘Jesus’. >So what? How does this affect *me*? >The Jews and Muslims don’t regard Jesus as >> being a Saviour or Son of God. >So what? Are you implying that one group is /right/ and another >/wrong/? >- Michaela

In my view – religion has to grow up, in this day and age, and be accountable for their beliefs, information, etc etc etc, or else they will all be swept away by sheer reason and logic. Religion can be seen for what it is – today – more so, than in previous times, when they got away with murder, lies, etc etc. The Jews, Christians and Muslims are all wrong, ie. incorrect with their information and beliefs, etc etc. They are merely power control mechanisms, who make the claim they are spiritual organisations – they are not – that is just a cover, that allows them to get away with anything and everything, which they have, when they were originally formed. And all later new groups that formed out of nowhere (ie. someone’s imagination) suffer the same distortions and lies. This affects all of us – because we have swallowed their garbage for so long. Harvey

Response:

Your Name Here=Harvey wrote: > In article , michaela says… > This affects all of us – because we have swallowed their garbage for so long. > Harvey

If by "swallowed their garbage" you mean: been duped, then count me out. I never fell for any religious organisation. My spiritual awakening/whatever has been a result of my own experiences. I discovered that what others think of me is less important than what I think of myself and therefore if others think less of me than I do of myself, the error lies in my inability to accept myself. I have found many of my answers in the texts of various religions/ philosophies etc. and many of these religions etc. are saying the same things in different ways. i.e. they all seem to be pointing at the same things. In another post you said something about having moved away from the New Age perspective. IIRC your James Van Praagh stage was not only shortlived, but Van Praagh was also [arguably] your first exposure to New Age perspectives. If you could fall as hard as you did for Van Praagh’s ideas and then turn away from them as sharply as you have then aren’t you potentially the one who has been duped all these years? Harvey, there’s only one law I would like to live by and that’s "Love one another." To love everyone else, I need to see the perfection in those people. Your new philosophy/take on life appears to be looking for faults. How loving is that? – Michaela, still learning to love.

Response:

Sorry to intrude again but… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Michaela Mackenzie wrote: > Your Name Here=Harvey wrote: >>This affects all of us – because we have swallowed their garbage for so long. >>Harvey > If by "swallowed their garbage" you mean: been duped, then > count me out. I never fell for any religious organisation. > My spiritual awakening/whatever has been a result of my > own experiences. I discovered that what others think of > me is less important than what I think of myself and therefore > if others think less of me than I do of myself, the error > lies in my inability to accept myself.

I’m interested to know why we put so much store in what other people think of us. This acceptance thing goes to the very heart of loneliness/social isolation. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have found many of my answers in the texts of various religions/ > philosophies etc. and many of these religions etc. are saying the > same things in different ways. i.e. they all seem to be pointing > at the same things. > In another post you said something about having moved away > from the New Age perspective. IIRC your James Van Praagh > stage was not only shortlived, but Van Praagh was also [arguably] > your first exposure to New Age perspectives. If you could fall as > hard as you did for Van Praagh’s ideas and then turn away > from them as sharply as you have then aren’t you potentially > the one who has been duped all these years? > Harvey, there’s only one law I would like to live by and that’s > "Love one another." To love everyone else, I need to see the > perfection in those people. Your new philosophy/take on life > appears to be looking for faults. How loving is that?

I’m trying to view this from your stated philosophy, and this looks like a question you need to answer rather than Harvey necessarily [although I don't want to preempt his reply]; what do you suspect Harvey is helping you to learn? How tolerant are you of other people’s "imperfection?" [I don't really like this word it implies fault/blame]. This is a tough nut to crack; don’t think I don’t get caught by this one time after time – you know I do. Could we say that most people are "fit for the purpose" which doesn’t imply blame or judgement, it simply means we have the job of finding out their purpose, should we be so inclined. > – Michaela, still learning to love.

And loving to learn. — 9:18am and my eyes still haven’t begun to focus. Sklenge needs tea! Pout, stamp, yell, tantrum… silence. Oh, I forgot, he’s in Cirencester. It’s at times like this when I really wish our cat could be trained to use the kettle. [Lazy cat].

Response:

I keep on planning to see that, preferably in the theatre. OTS "-Phil C" wrote in message

news:11mrjvf8d5joh9a@news.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Joe Canuck" wrote in message > news:ppqdnaax647c5ffenZ2dnUVZ_tydnZ2d@magma.ca… > > Your Name Here=Harvey wrote: > >> eg. > >> That death is the ‘end’. Life continues on, death is merely a transistion > >> phase. The religions – Judaism, Christianity and Islam have got it all > >> wrong – > >> don’t believe a word they say about it (and other stuff too). > Yep! Of course after we die it is all black and our brain stops working so > we will have no thoughts and just a tiny bit of energy gets returned to the > environment. > But life continues. We just don’t know about it. We’re deader than rocks > then! > >> That there is a "God" (strange isn’t it, that the God of the Jews and > >> Christians and Muslims are very very very similiar to each other). > >> There isn’t one or ones, etc. It is all a lie, a con foistered upon the > >> unsuspecting public, all for power and control. Religions are power > >> control mechanisms which look after themselves first and foremost. > >> They are not spiritual organisations – they only put on that front and > >> air, > >> that they are, and they have fooled the public into believing this. > Yep! There is no God. God is something we can’t image, and there is nothing > we can’t imagine so there is no God. > Imagine that! > >> That UFOs are not real. They are part of our human history. > >> Always was, is and will be. > Yep! There have, and always will be, Unidentified Flying Objects. > Since they will always be Unidentified maybe we are really alone. > Well, at least we won’t have to worry about supplying quintillions of M&Ms > to aliens. > >> Those will do for starters – there are many more, as big… > >> Harvey > > George Bush dragging America into a war based on lies. > > Amazingly, there is no talk of impeachment… yet Clinton was impeached > > for something that was essentially personal business. > Yep! That cigar thing started as personal business, about which he lied > under oath which was not essentially personal business. > It really irritates me when you try to twist it. > .. ahh …. maybe a bad choice of words. > I think this is the biggest lie on the planet. > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0042546/plotsummary > If what it says is true, who started this thread!? > -Phil C

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In article <11mrhfdkgsf6…@news.supernews.com>, m…@no.where says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->"Your Name Here=Harvey" wrote in message >news:dkghf2$l1v$1@lust.ihug.co.nz… >> In article , >> Joe.Can…@-remove-gmail.com says… >>>Your Name Here=Harvey wrote: >>>> eg. >>>> That death is the ‘end’. Life continues on, death is merely a >>>> transistion >>>> phase. The religions – Judaism, Christianity and Islam have got it all >> wrong – >>>> don’t believe a word they say about it (and other stuff too). >>>> That there is a "God" (strange isn’t it, that the God of the Jews and >>>> Christians and Muslims are very very very similiar to each other). >>>> There isn’t one or ones, etc. It is all a lie, a con foistered upon the >>>> unsuspecting public, all for power and control. Religions are power >>>> control mechanisms which look after themselves first and foremost. >>>> They are not spiritual organisations – they only put on that front and >>>> air, >>>> that they are, and they have fooled the public into believing this. >>>> That UFOs are not real. They are part of our human history. >>>> Always was, is and will be. >>>> Those will do for starters – there are many more, as big… >>>> Harvey >>>George Bush dragging America into a war based on lies. >>>Amazingly, there is no talk of impeachment… yet Clinton was impeached >>>for something that was essentially personal business. >> There is a prophecy that there will be no peace on this planet, until >> the likes of Bush, Blair and Sharon are dethroned and are replaced with >> peaceful leaders. That Iraq will see peace after the US withdraw, that >> peace will be in the middle east when the Arabs get their land back. >> That the US withdraws from countries it has no right to be in, and stop >> being a belligerent force in this world, openly and covertly. It is not >> the police force of this world. >> Harvey >Who made that prophecy? >Do you have a link to their website? >-Phil C

Prophecies of this kind, has been made by the Plejarens through Billy Meier. The above particular one was from a pdf document titled ‘UFO – The Gods of Earth were Human – Vivienne Legg’ I believe she’s behind the www.gaiaguys.net site. Prophecies of this type are discussed at www.figu.org in the English Discussion forum. There is a search engine which will easily find the various comments for you, there. Harvey

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Your Name Here=Harvey wrote: > Christianity has to grow up, or be seriously left behind, or ignored > altogether if it doesn’t change in the changing environment of > everyday > life. But even this is not sufficient for it to survive – because it > is simply, not based upon ‘truth’ at all, or what happened, as regards > the figure of ‘Jesus’.

So what? How does this affect *me*? The Jews and Muslims don’t regard Jesus as > being a Saviour or Son of God.

So what? Are you implying that one group is /right/ and another /wrong/? – Michaela

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In article , Joe.Can…@-remove-gmail.com says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Your Name Here=Harvey wrote: >> eg. >> That death is the ‘end’. Life continues on, death is merely a transistion >> phase. The religions – Judaism, Christianity and Islam have got it all wrong – >> don’t believe a word they say about it (and other stuff too). >> That there is a "God" (strange isn’t it, that the God of the Jews and >> Christians and Muslims are very very very similiar to each other). >> There isn’t one or ones, etc. It is all a lie, a con foistered upon the >> unsuspecting public, all for power and control. Religions are power >> control mechanisms which look after themselves first and foremost. >> They are not spiritual organisations – they only put on that front and air, >> that they are, and they have fooled the public into believing this. >> That UFOs are not real. They are part of our human history. >> Always was, is and will be. >> Those will do for starters – there are many more, as big… >> Harvey >George Bush dragging America into a war based on lies. >Amazingly, there is no talk of impeachment… yet Clinton was impeached >for something that was essentially personal business.

There is a prophecy that there will be no peace on this planet, until the likes of Bush, Blair and Sharon are dethroned and are replaced with peaceful leaders. That Iraq will see peace after the US withdraw, that peace will be in the middle east when the Arabs get their land back. That the US withdraws from countries it has no right to be in, and stop being a belligerent force in this world, openly and covertly. It is not the police force of this world. Harvey

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So what Eddy Meier was harping on about was the exact opposite of quackery? Far out. OTS "Your Name Here=Harvey" wrote in message news:dk8mif$sm7$1@lust.ihug.co.nz… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In article <1130858464.796468.149…@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, > yamunamy…@yahoo.com says… > >I saw this post soon after you posted and wanted to say that there are > >so many biggest lies on this planet, I didn’t know where to begin:)- > I would say that is true – and it is because of the nature of > ‘establishments’ being the problem. > Authorities of this and that, act like they know everything – especially > over the area they preside. > When you look at the information they preach – often it appears to be > quackery – whether it be religion, politics, and even science. > Over issues like death and dying – is there anything afterwards? > There is enough information out there – to sort out who is very likely > lying to us, who has no clue, and who may have possible answers. > Harvey

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"Your Name Here=Harvey" wrote in message news:dkghf2$l1v$1@lust.ihug.co.nz… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In article , > Joe.Can…@-remove-gmail.com says… >>Your Name Here=Harvey wrote: >>> eg. >>> That death is the ‘end’. Life continues on, death is merely a >>> transistion >>> phase. The religions – Judaism, Christianity and Islam have got it all > wrong – >>> don’t believe a word they say about it (and other stuff too). >>> That there is a "God" (strange isn’t it, that the God of the Jews and >>> Christians and Muslims are very very very similiar to each other). >>> There isn’t one or ones, etc. It is all a lie, a con foistered upon the >>> unsuspecting public, all for power and control. Religions are power >>> control mechanisms which look after themselves first and foremost. >>> They are not spiritual organisations – they only put on that front and >>> air, >>> that they are, and they have fooled the public into believing this. >>> That UFOs are not real. They are part of our human history. >>> Always was, is and will be. >>> Those will do for starters – there are many more, as big… >>> Harvey >>George Bush dragging America into a war based on lies. >>Amazingly, there is no talk of impeachment… yet Clinton was impeached >>for something that was essentially personal business. > There is a prophecy that there will be no peace on this planet, until > the likes of Bush, Blair and Sharon are dethroned and are replaced with > peaceful leaders. That Iraq will see peace after the US withdraw, that > peace will be in the middle east when the Arabs get their land back. > That the US withdraws from countries it has no right to be in, and stop > being a belligerent force in this world, openly and covertly. It is not > the police force of this world. > Harvey

Who made that prophecy? Do you have a link to their website? -Phil C

Response:

"Joe Canuck" wrote in message

news:ppqdnaax647c5ffenZ2dnUVZ_tydnZ2d@magma.ca… > Your Name Here=Harvey wrote: >> eg. >> That death is the ‘end’. Life continues on, death is merely a transistion >> phase. The religions – Judaism, Christianity and Islam have got it all >> wrong – >> don’t believe a word they say about it (and other stuff too).

Yep! Of course after we die it is all black and our brain stops working so we will have no thoughts and just a tiny bit of energy gets returned to the environment. But life continues. We just don’t know about it. We’re deader than rocks then! >> That there is a "God" (strange isn’t it, that the God of the Jews and >> Christians and Muslims are very very very similiar to each other). >> There isn’t one or ones, etc. It is all a lie, a con foistered upon the >> unsuspecting public, all for power and control. Religions are power >> control mechanisms which look after themselves first and foremost. >> They are not spiritual organisations – they only put on that front and >> air, >> that they are, and they have fooled the public into believing this.

Yep! There is no God. God is something we can’t image, and there is nothing we can’t imagine so there is no God. Imagine that! >> That UFOs are not real. They are part of our human history. >> Always was, is and will be.

Yep! There have, and always will be, Unidentified Flying Objects. Since they will always be Unidentified maybe we are really alone. Well, at least we won’t have to worry about supplying quintillions of M&Ms to aliens. >> Those will do for starters – there are many more, as big… >> Harvey > George Bush dragging America into a war based on lies. > Amazingly, there is no talk of impeachment… yet Clinton was impeached > for something that was essentially personal business.

Yep! That cigar thing started as personal business, about which he lied under oath which was not essentially personal business. It really irritates me when you try to twist it. .. ahh …. maybe a bad choice of words. I think this is the biggest lie on the planet. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0042546/plotsummary If what it says is true, who started this thread!? -Phil C

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Joe Canuck (Joe.Can…@-remove-gmail.com) writes: > Your Name Here=Harvey wrote: >> eg. >> That death is the ‘end’. Life continues on, death is merely a transistion >> phase. The religions – Judaism, Christianity and Islam have got it all wrong – >> don’t believe a word they say about it (and other stuff too). >> That there is a "God" (strange isn’t it, that the God of the Jews and >> Christians and Muslims are very very very similiar to each other). >> There isn’t one or ones, etc. It is all a lie, a con foistered upon the >> unsuspecting public, all for power and control. Religions are power >> control mechanisms which look after themselves first and foremost. >> They are not spiritual organisations – they only put on that front and air, >> that they are, and they have fooled the public into believing this. >> That UFOs are not real. They are part of our human history. >> Always was, is and will be. >> Those will do for starters – there are many more, as big… >> Harvey > George Bush dragging America into a war based on lies. > Amazingly, there is no talk of impeachment… yet Clinton was impeached > for something that was essentially personal business.

Smokers always get the wrong end of the bat….Erm…or smokers’ mates anyway LOL:) Or somethign like that. When there is smoke….there’s no Andre Boisclair…. (eew…Having images of what he;d do with a cigar. Baaad….;-) Hehehee. Perhaps only you coudl get that one. I mean…I did not mean you coudl literally get it, nonono… ARGH. Okay. I’m gone… ZIP! No, I mean zipping it up… Nononononono!! I don’t mean that either!!! AAAARGHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! C — Come over here boy, have a cigar You gonna go far They call it riding the gravy train..’s cigar Mppft:) —

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Sklenge wrote:

I’m not sure if I > /can/ be sure of Shell.

You too? O man! – Michaela

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I just happen to be 50? years ahead of my time, that is all. Aquarians are noted for that – and being true to my inner character and person – I say verily that there will come a day, when my so-called opinion will be proved as fact – by whatever means you care to name. I was into computers 20 years ago – could I have imagined then, what we are doing now with computers? I do assure you I’ve been doing 30+ years of serious thinking about all those ‘truths’ I’ve been harping on about – that they do fit together and explain the universe adequately, compared to our hodge podge knowledge of established and accepted thinking today – and yesterday. Harvey In article <1130738641.723975.17…@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, michaelamackenzie05072…@yahoo.com says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Stating opinion as fact, Harvey? >- Michaela >Your Name Here=Harvey wrote: >> eg. >> That death is the ‘end’. Life continues on, death is merely a transistion >> phase. The religions – Judaism, Christianity and Islam have got it all wrong – >> don’t believe a word they say about it (and other stuff too). >> That there is a "God" (strange isn’t it, that the God of the Jews and >> Christians and Muslims are very very very similiar to each other). >> There isn’t one or ones, etc. It is all a lie, a con foistered upon the >> unsuspecting public, all for power and control. Religions are power >> control mechanisms which look after themselves first and foremost. >> They are not spiritual organisations – they only put on that front and air, >> that they are, and they have fooled the public into believing this. >> That UFOs are not real. They are part of our human history. >> Always was, is and will be. >> Those will do for starters – there are many more, as big… >> Harvey

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The Jewish holocaust.

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In article <1130821063.990267.9…@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, darkfal…@gmail.com says… >The Jewish holocaust.

Nope can’t agree with that, although I haven’t read into the question about this, at all. Just going by what I know about WWII history, and world history, etc. Probably even stranger, is the story that Hitler was not the brains behind his own plans, etc — that he himself was merely a puppet of the atrocities of WWII. This story does make sense, because he alone could not do what is claimed, he did – formed the Nazi Party, etc etc etc. It was all cleverly orchestrated to happen, which means there was a lot of people involved – Hitler is merely the figurehead – and is no way the organiser of what he did, etc. The same with other so-called ‘great’ leaders, etc etc etc. The puppet is not solely responsible for all that did happen. Harvey

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> Nope can’t agree with that, although I haven’t read into the > question about this, at all. Just going by what I know about WWII history, > and world history, etc. > Probably even stranger, is the story that Hitler was not the brains > behind his own plans, etc — that he himself was merely a puppet of > the atrocities of WWII.

Atrocities like Dresden and Hiroshima? > This story does make sense, because he alone could not do what is claimed, > he did – formed the Nazi Party, etc etc etc. > It was all cleverly orchestrated to happen, which means there was a lot of > people involved – Hitler is merely the figurehead – and is no way the > organiser of what he did, etc. > The same with other so-called ‘great’ leaders, etc etc etc. The puppet > is not solely responsible for all that did happen.

Wrong, but thanks for trying. HEIL HITLER.

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Your Name Here=Harvey (k…@ing.notin.aus) writes: > I just happen to be 50? years ahead of my time, that is all. > Aquarians are noted for that – and being true to my inner character and > person – I say verily that there will come a day, when my so-called opinion > will be proved as fact – by whatever means you care to name. > I was into computers 20 years ago – could I have imagined then, what we > are doing now with computers? > I do assure you I’ve been doing 30+ years of serious thinking about > all those ‘truths’ I’ve been harping on about – that they do fit together > and explain the universe adequately, compared to our hodge podge knowledge > of established and accepted thinking today – and yesterday.

I don’t know how accepted they are where you live. In the US, the beliefs you write against -rather than writing about yours- are quite dead compared to 100 years ago, say, in many areas. The bible belt remains where the belief is religiosity more often than not, with the letter being taken literally and the spirit too often passed by. But take here in Canada. If many will say they believe in God, not so many do much. It is not even an each sunday thing for most poeple. Chruches are deserted save for the elderly, and every now and then a younger adult that was raised with granny, sort of thing. People’s beliefs are, for those areas where religiosity died, more self-adapted, and often more sefl serving too. Even reincarnation is rather seen as a way to blame one’s misadventures -but mostly the neighbor’s- on. They are havign a hard time? Bah, they asked for it in a previous life, certainly, and so it is fair and let’s let them in it" sort of thing. As for the UFOs and ideas you talk about, again, they were blooming here in the early 80s, if they were increasingly so already in the 60s and 70s, where then reading your words is making me wonder at times if in NZ, things are stuck in a time warp of 20 years ago. What seems new to you or "50 years ahead" rings "30 years behind" to me, for instance, cause I heard it all to satiety and then some in those decades. Anoher thing everyone hard of till bored is the anti religious belifes. Here,t hat happened in the early 60s. Action was joined to words where churches suddenly emtied, more than half sold as residences after some contractor got them for cheap and renovated them. In the seventies, the fashion was to live in a renovated ex church. I can think of 3 out of four in the village where my parents live that were closed so fast, I do not remember theirt having ever been opened in fact. I think they all closed within a year, the first year of our moving there, in 68. One remains. For weddings and baptisms and funerals -and masses for the elederly, sort of thing. Except for maybe some unknown cases of psychopathic religosity adepts, Quebec is pretty much done since 4 decades with the rituals and hypocrisy of pseudo christian pedophile priests. Which does not mean that christianity is dead. Rather, it is revisited, cleansed from all the encumbring rituals built through centuries to hold people prisoners of fears, and is based on more and more common sense. Many remain yet that do not really adapt, and who need to be good ole followers, where sects started abounding the minte the catchlic church was no longer "in fashion". Rael and his followers, for instance, where Rael claimed that ETs talked to him and told him he had to build an embassy for them for when they would land. Only, they were to land in was it year 2000, and did not…. So then, bored, Rael had to come up with soemthign to still find followers. He then declares he ahd this or that message where he was to pick anyone he wants to have sex with and they gotta say yes and their husband -and or wife- has to agree to it. In other words, he really misses the old pedophile priests and the sexual offenders mentality and recreated it for those who like him also missed it obvioulsy. Given that, the ret of the population around these neck-of-the-woods would not give much *belief* interest in one more book about ETs wanting us to this and that. We already have plenty of those declarations here ""thanks"" to Rael. So "ETs mean to tell you this", and "ETs want you to do that" (or "God" wants you to do put money in the trunk, what;s the difference, really?) and the "the church is lying!!!" declarations are all soporific since long around here, where a book on that alone would not reach a market save that of the already saturated one of Rael (and his sosies) and followers. You base your ideas on the books of anoher writer, a fiction writer, in fact, where then there can not be much new stuff in that, since it is about ideas already published and that already made there wave that then crashed later on. Again, what do YOU mean to say in your book that is different? What IS new in the ideas? If no new ideas, then making it so much thought to write would not be wise. The best would maybe be to think of the market there is, one that likes to spend an hour or two everyonce in a while looking at pics of what so called "unexplained" is around, wiht a short text to say where the pic was taken and by what person, and what is special about it. Trying to sell a belief to people is not 50 years ahead. Or maybe it will be as poeple pretty much loive cycles, where after a time of making obesity be the fashion, they will then make anorexy the fashion, to then again go back to obesity and so on, in pretty much all areas. So maybe in 50 years people will again go back to superstition thinking and to hanging on to any forged set of beliefs that does not hold water when it comes to what it brings poele in their daily life for a guidance and to sustain them and each other. Maybe in 50 years, newborn will never have heard of Rael, and will never have seen a church and mass, where then that will be as interestign to them as vampirism or goths are interestign to some teens. The fashion of the 60s had a short come back. Maybe the fashion of Sunday mass with pedophiles telling you ewhat to believe in the good there would eb to leave kids with them will be feasable again, etc, etc. Until then, I’d not mind owning a book to flip pages on a rainy Saturday, iwith pics and legends under them. But like most persons, the seond it has text tryign to tell me what to make of it all, and what belief is suppssedly the one one should have, the second it manipulates or tries to, the book it put back on the store shelf, with me being annoyed…. You might want to consider this: the average writer makes 2,000 bucks per book. It then means that if one can write 25 a year, they maybe can make 50,000. Maybe one of them will sell more. Maybe one among will happen to hit some timing ion peole’s mind or with things "in the air" where that ne will bring more than 2,000 dollars. Everyonce in a while, some author falls on a book that sells hot, they donlt even know why, and that makes it so all lil followers will go buy everythign they wrote before that never was that interesting to start with, but that now is inserted in a legend they make in their lil heads…. I still am amazed at how poeple need to follow some leader, and to even create instant just add water leaders to follow rather than to assert themself and think and reflect for themself. But what makes them tick and follow only dependant followers and their controlelrs know. Often, not even the controller, it just happens:) So all in all…Donlt sweat it so much.Use the research you did over the years, and present it in an agglomeration of pics and subjects, without them leading anyone to think this a way or that a way. Let poeple free to think what they want. Anythign else is just religiosity all over again. C > > Harvey > – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In article <1130738641.723975.17…@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, > michaelamackenzie05072…@yahoo.com says… >>Stating opinion as fact, Harvey? >>- Michaela >>Your Name Here=Harvey wrote: >>> eg. >>> That death is the ‘end’. Life continues on, death is merely a transistion >>> phase. The religions – Judaism, Christianity and Islam have got it all > wrong – >>> don’t believe a word they say about it (and other stuff too). >>> That there is a "God" (strange isn’t it, that the God of the Jews and >>> Christians and Muslims are very very very similiar to each other). >>> There isn’t one or ones, etc. It is all a lie, a con foistered upon the >>> unsuspecting public, all for power and control. Religions are power >>> control mechanisms which look after themselves first and foremost. >>> They are not spiritual organisations – they only put on that front and air, >>> that they are, and they have fooled the public into believing this. >>> That UFOs are not real. They are part of our human history. >>> Always was, is and will be. >>> Those will do for starters – there are many more, as big… >>> Harvey

–

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In article , bc…@FreeNet.Carleton.CA says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Your Name Here=Harvey (k…@ing.notin.aus) writes: >> I just happen to be 50? years ahead of my time, that is all. >> Aquarians are noted for that – and being true to my inner character and >> person – I say verily that there will come a day, when my so-called opinion >> will be proved as fact – by whatever means you care to name. >> I was into computers 20 years ago – could I have imagined then, what we >> are doing now with computers? >> I do assure you I’ve been doing 30+ years of serious thinking about >> all those ‘truths’ I’ve been harping on about – that they do fit together >> and explain the universe adequately, compared to our hodge podge knowledge >> of established and accepted thinking today – and yesterday. >I don’t know how accepted they are where you live. >In the US, the beliefs you write against -rather than writing about yours- >are quite dead compared to 100 years ago, say, in many areas. The bible >belt remains where the belief is religiosity more often than not, with >the letter being taken literally and the spirit too often passed by. >But take here in Canada. If many will say they believe in God, not so many >do much. It is not even an each sunday thing for most poeple. Chruches are >deserted save for the elderly, and every now and then a younger adult that >was raised with granny, sort of thing.

Yes – churches here have been closed down (because of fewer followers) and sold off, with plain folk living in them – down here. And new churches have sprung up – a former car tyres building has been renovated into a new church – first it was Green Hills or something like and changed to Nation something. And it doesn’t look like a church. >People’s beliefs are, for those areas where religiosity died, more >self-adapted, and often more sefl serving too. >Even reincarnation is rather seen as a way to blame one’s misadventures >-but mostly the neighbor’s- on. They are havign a hard time? Bah, they >asked for it in a previous life, certainly, and so it is fair and let’s >let them in it" sort of thing. >As for the UFOs and ideas you talk about, again, they were blooming here in >the early 80s, if they were increasingly so already in the 60s and 70s, where >then reading your words is making me wonder at times >if in NZ, things are stuck in a time warp of 20 years ago. What seems new >to you or "50 years ahead" rings "30 years behind" to me, for instance, >cause I heard it all to satiety and then some in those decades.

Everything goes in cycles – they come around again, are popularised again. There has been always been ‘alternatives’ to the belief of that time. Think of so-called Christianity being a breakaway from the current beliefs of it’s time, when it was formed, so too for Islam. And in the 18th Century so many new? breakaways were formed then. Name them christian, or spiritualist or whatever. >Anoher thing everyone hard of till bored is the anti religious belifes. >Here,t hat happened in the early 60s. Action was joined to words where >churches suddenly emtied, more than half sold as residences after some >contractor got them for cheap and renovated them. In the seventies, the >fashion was to live in a renovated ex church. I can think of 3 out of four >in the village where my parents live that were closed so fast, I do not >remember theirt having ever been opened in fact. I think they all closed >within a year, the first year of our moving there, in 68. >One remains. For weddings and baptisms and funerals -and masses for the >elederly, sort of thing.

Maybe you can draw a parallel with new entertainments that appeal to people more, than going to church? Like with the advent of radio, then television – and along with these, enlighten the audience as well, that the beliefs of the church simply don’t stand up to inspection. ie. They are not truths at all, but simply dogma and rhetoric. Believers have simply been conned – that is the only truthful way of putting it. >Except for maybe some unknown cases of psychopathic religosity adepts, >Quebec is pretty much done since 4 decades with the rituals and hypocrisy >of pseudo christian pedophile priests. >Which does not mean that christianity is dead. Rather, it is revisited, >cleansed from all the encumbring rituals built through centuries to hold >people prisoners of fears, and is based on more and more common sense.

Christianity has to grow up, or be seriously left behind, or ignored altogether if it doesn’t change in the changing environment of everyday life. But even this is not sufficient for it to survive – because it is simply, not based upon ‘truth’ at all, or what happened, as regards the figure of ‘Jesus’. The Jews and Muslims don’t regard Jesus as being a Saviour or Son of God. >Many remain yet that do not really adapt, and who need to be good ole >followers, where sects started abounding the minte the catchlic church was >no longer "in fashion". >Rael and his followers, for instance, where Rael claimed that ETs talked >to him and told him he had to build an embassy for them for when they >would land. Only, they were to land in was it year 2000, and did not…. >So then, bored, Rael had to come up with soemthign to still find >followers. He then declares he ahd this or that message where he was to >pick anyone he wants to have sex with and they gotta say yes and their >husband -and or wife- has to agree to it.

Rael is a pure nut – as seen clearly in his television and media presentations. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->In other words, he really misses the old pedophile priests and the sexual >offenders mentality and recreated it for those who like him also missed it >obvioulsy. >Given that, the ret of the population around these neck-of-the-woods would >not give much *belief* interest in one more book about ETs wanting us to >this and that. We already have plenty of those declarations here >""thanks"" to Rael. >So "ETs mean to tell you this", and "ETs want you to do that" (or "God" wants >you to do put money in the trunk, what;s the difference, really?) and the >"the church is lying!!!" declarations are all soporific since long around >here, where a book on that alone would not reach a market save that of the >already saturated one of Rael (and his sosies) and followers. >You base your ideas on the books of anoher writer, a fiction writer, in >fact, where then there can not be much new stuff in that, since it is >about ideas already published and that already made there wave that then >crashed later on.

Nothing is ever ‘new’ as such. There is no such thing as original thought? I don’t think so. We are the product of our times. Some people sense the future and are better prepared (mentally) to step into it, than others. There should be a recognition of that which is truly archaic and in error – which needs correction – which needs to be dealt with. ie. adjustments/corrections need to be made, or else devious people will use it as a means of control and terror. Which is what terrorists are exploiting now, or rather their masters are. There is a woman, a widow of one of the recent Londom bombers, that she recognised her husband was a changed man – because of his passion for his religion. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Again, what do YOU mean to say in your book that is different? >What IS new in the ideas? >If no new ideas, then making it so much thought to write would not be >wise. The best would maybe be to think of the market there is, one that >likes to spend an hour or two everyonce in a while looking at pics of what >so called "unexplained" is around, wiht a short text to say where the pic >was taken and by what person, and what is special about it. >Trying to sell a belief to people is not 50 years ahead. Or maybe it will >be as poeple pretty much loive cycles, where after a time of making >obesity be the fashion, they will then make anorexy the fashion, to then >again go back to obesity and so on, in pretty much all areas. >So maybe in 50 years people will again go back to superstition thinking >and to hanging on to any forged set of beliefs that does not hold water >when it comes to what it brings poele in their daily life for a guidance >and to sustain them and each other. >Maybe in 50 years, newborn will never have heard of Rael, and will never >have seen a church and mass, where then that will be as interestign to >them as vampirism or goths are interestign to some teens. >The fashion of the 60s had a short come back. >Maybe the fashion of Sunday mass with pedophiles telling you ewhat to >believe in the good there would eb to leave kids with them will be >feasable again, etc, etc. >Until then, I’d not mind owning a book to flip pages on a rainy Saturday, >iwith pics and legends under them.

There is a large format book series for children, that was done many years ago. It had one dealing with UFOs, another with monsters. These were rather well done, with nice artwork and a good recap of the area they covered. There was a good series, in the small medium sized book range, I think it was called ‘MacDonald’s Guidelines’ – well some MacName anyway. Most dealt with ordinary everyday hobbies, like photography, gardening, looking after your car, etc. There was one about ESP. These gave excellent coverage about the particular subject with photographs and artwork. It would be nice to see one about ‘religion’ and philosophy, which gives adequate coverage about all the mainstream religions and ideas, and also cover the more borderline-strange stuff too. I do have an old Pears Cyclopaedia from the 70s’ – I only got it because it was on sale. Anyway it has an excellent section on ‘Ideas and Beliefs’ ie. world religions, etc. Gives a summary and history about most religious groups, etc. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->But like most persons, the seond it has text tryign to tell me what to >make of it all, and what belief is suppssedly the one one should have, the >second it

Response:

I saw this post soon after you posted and wanted to say that there are so many biggest lies on this planet, I didn’t know where to begin:)-

Response:

In article <1130858464.796468.149…@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, yamunamy…@yahoo.com says… >I saw this post soon after you posted and wanted to say that there are >so many biggest lies on this planet, I didn’t know where to begin:)-

I would say that is true – and it is because of the nature of ‘establishments’ being the problem. Authorities of this and that, act like they know everything – especially over the area they preside. When you look at the information they preach – often it appears to be quackery – whether it be religion, politics, and even science. Over issues like death and dying – is there anything afterwards? There is enough information out there – to sort out who is very likely lying to us, who has no clue, and who may have possible answers. Harvey

Response:

Yes, but I’m not buying into this until giant radioactive dinosaurs enter the mythos. OTS "Your Name Here=Harvey" wrote in message news:dk264q$mj5$2@lust.ihug.co.nz… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> eg. > That death is the ‘end’. Life continues on, death is merely a transistion > phase. The religions – Judaism, Christianity and Islam have got it all wrong – > don’t believe a word they say about it (and other stuff too). > That there is a "God" (strange isn’t it, that the God of the Jews and > Christians and Muslims are very very very similiar to each other). > There isn’t one or ones, etc. It is all a lie, a con foistered upon the > unsuspecting public, all for power and control. Religions are power > control mechanisms which look after themselves first and foremost. > They are not spiritual organisations – they only put on that front and air, > that they are, and they have fooled the public into believing this. > That UFOs are not real. They are part of our human history. > Always was, is and will be. > Those will do for starters – there are many more, as big… > Harvey

Response:

Michaela Mackenzie on 31/10/2005 6:04 am wrote: > Stating opinion as fact, Harvey?

Quite. I’d also like to add that I’m not overly impressed with the honesty of politicians, PR "spin doctors" and advertisers. I’m not sure if I /can/ be sure of Shell. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> – Michaela > Your Name Here=Harvey wrote: >> eg. >> That death is the ‘end’. Life continues on, death is merely a transistion >> phase. The religions – Judaism, Christianity and Islam have got it all wrong >> – >> don’t believe a word they say about it (and other stuff too). >> That there is a "God" (strange isn’t it, that the God of the Jews and >> Christians and Muslims are very very very similiar to each other). >> There isn’t one or ones, etc. It is all a lie, a con foistered upon the >> unsuspecting public, all for power and control. Religions are power >> control mechanisms which look after themselves first and foremost. >> They are not spiritual organisations – they only put on that front and air, >> that they are, and they have fooled the public into believing this. >> That UFOs are not real. They are part of our human history. >> Always was, is and will be. >> Those will do for starters – there are many more, as big… >> Harvey

Here’s a site you might like Harvey… http://www.exchristian.net/testimonies/2005/02/flying-zombie-jews-don… ss-me.php Loads of testimonials from ex- and recovering Christians.

Response:

Stating opinion as fact, Harvey? – Michaela – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Your Name Here=Harvey wrote: > eg. > That death is the ‘end’. Life continues on, death is merely a transistion > phase. The religions – Judaism, Christianity and Islam have got it all wrong – > don’t believe a word they say about it (and other stuff too). > That there is a "God" (strange isn’t it, that the God of the Jews and > Christians and Muslims are very very very similiar to each other). > There isn’t one or ones, etc. It is all a lie, a con foistered upon the > unsuspecting public, all for power and control. Religions are power > control mechanisms which look after themselves first and foremost. > They are not spiritual organisations – they only put on that front and air, > that they are, and they have fooled the public into believing this. > That UFOs are not real. They are part of our human history. > Always was, is and will be. > Those will do for starters – there are many more, as big… > Harvey

Response:

eg. That death is the ‘end’. Life continues on, death is merely a transistion phase. The religions – Judaism, Christianity and Islam have got it all wrong – don’t believe a word they say about it (and other stuff too). That there is a "God" (strange isn’t it, that the God of the Jews and Christians and Muslims are very very very similiar to each other). There isn’t one or ones, etc. It is all a lie, a con foistered upon the unsuspecting public, all for power and control. Religions are power control mechanisms which look after themselves first and foremost. They are not spiritual organisations – they only put on that front and air, that they are, and they have fooled the public into believing this. That UFOs are not real. They are part of our human history. Always was, is and will be. Those will do for starters – there are many more, as big… Harvey

Response:

The book I'm writing, or trying to write…

admin — Fri, 07 Oct 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Your Name Here=Harvey wrote: > Michaela says… >> Your Name Here=Harvey wrote: >>> The format at the moment, is in the form of a letter – this of >>> course, will be changed towards something more suitable for a book >>> format. The letter is for a specific person, so note, that it’s not >>> for you personally, so allow for us… in your reading. >>> It is time to change the paradigm on this planet – because we are in >>> need of it – change – towards a better, more peaceful and >>> understanding world, that of sense and sensibility. >>> It is of a very sensitive nature, that I write about – that is >>> important to fully understand and comprehend. >>> You, yourself are of an ‘age’ in which you can verify known facts >>> and information, and verify that which is only hinted and guessed >>> at. >>> You know fact from fiction? Don’t you? >>> You know of the human imagination, and how much it affects our >>> lives – to be able to dream/imagine the possibilities of a future, >>> and hopefully to move towards it – to what was imagined. >>> You know of human creativity and how important that is in our lives. >>> That expression of the ‘arts’ is important to those who exercise >>> their creativity, and also how it is received and perceived by >>> those who appreciate it. >>> I will come full circle to this particular point – that of the above >>> two paragraphs, above, in due course. Please realise how powerful >>> the human imagination is. >> I’ve found that people (at least on usenet) don’t seem to believe our >> imaginations have any power whatsoever, or if they do, then it’s kind >> of vague… > Imagination and creativeness (or creative energy/etc) are very > powerful things we have, and should be acknowledged and used more.

Which is why I posted that "OT: ‘Exorcist talked me into sex’" thread. But again I couldn’t get anyone interested in discussing imagination. All anyone (iirc) seemed to talk about was that the woman was stupid to let the guy have sex with her. No one seemed to want to consider that she may (and I’m not saying that this is how it went) have believed his smooth tongue because she needed company so badly. I don’t know if you’ve ever done something crazy because you think it’ll please someone else, but I certainly have. At the moment we’re busy watching a friend walk into a high risk relationship and we know there’s nothing we can say or do. He’s just gotta go through it and hopefully eventually learn his lesson. Or perhaps they’ll surprise us all. I know I certainly hope they do. >>> Back to the point about the paradigm shift – that is important to >>> us, >> Arie spoke about getting rid of all paradigms. I like that. But it’s >> scary. > We need to understand what paradigm means.

Without getting too into it, I would say it means "model of the world". So getting rid of all paradigms would end up with oneness; a single wholeness. Something I imagine John Lennon was thinking of when he wrote "Imagine". > I was using it as ‘example’ – the examples being shown on this planet, > are not good, as far as worldwide actions in the news, by leaders.

Everyone’s only doing the best they can, Harvey. So you think you know better, write a book about it. But I’m not sure all this finger-pointing is going to do much good. > If you view it as ‘idea’ – then, there’s nothing wrong with old > morals, such as ‘be honest and truthful’ or more specifically, ‘only > speak the truth’ or ‘don’t lie’ then do it. Which is the whole point > here.

Harvey. Of course the ideal is "do not lie." But we are also humans and as such we *do* lie. And we must learn to put in our own effort not to lie. But the problem with pressuring people not to lie is that in itself pressure doesn’t help the person not to lie and it doesn’t stop the feelings of guilt

Life Plans [Was Re: Help please - breathing and high anxiety]

admin — Wed, 21 Sep 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

"pegasus" wrote in message

news:54f440626864c91ca8876.aeb3947b86d15@asarian-host.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> X-No-Archive: Yes > So, I was suggesting earlier this month that posters indicate their current > goals and occasionally post updates on progress. There are a couple of > things I’m hoping to fit in this autumn. At work the theme for the > residents’ Christmas party this year is going to be ‘Stars in their Eyes’, > where we’ll help them get dressed up as their favourite singer and put on a > performance (maybe miming and dancing, or karaoke-style if they prefer). > Staff are being encouraged to participate as well. Now the strange thing is > that even though I was the most painfully, incredibly shy thing you could > possibly imagine as a young child, as a ‘growed-up’ I enjoy performing, so > whilst all the other members of staff are groaning in mock horror at the > thought, I’m bouncing with tigger-ish enthusiasm and excitement about the > whole business! The only problem is … I can neither sing nor dance. I’ve > heard robust, confident people state with absolute certainty that ANYONE can > sing (and dance) with a little bit of coaching. With that thought in mind, > here is my goal: between now and Christmas, to prepare a worthy performance > for the party. I think maybe my first step is finding a singing teacher. > The other goal is to learn to use Corel Draw Graphics Suite 12. Hmmmm. > Don’t even know what my first step is towards that goal. Adult ed. classes, > maybe. The difficulty is fitting all this sort of thing around the weird > shift-pattern I work. > Comments welcome :-) > Anyone else got any goals to share?

Well, I’d like to have enough money to own my own island so that the RSPCA can send all the unwanted animals over in a boat instead of putting them down. Step 1 of 2341 – get a job. Not going so great. Another rejection letter. It’s a bit difficult when you need 3 references to flip burgers at McDonalds these days – let alone your average uni graduate job, and I’ve been out of work due to various emotional problems for about 5 years. Do I know 3 references? I’m struggling to even think of 3 people that I know. (outside the family that is.) Step 2 of 2341 – ….

Response:

paneon on 22/09/2005 11:51 am wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "pegasus" wrote in message > news:54f440626864c91ca8876.aeb3947b86d15@asarian-host.net… >> X-No-Archive: Yes >> So, I was suggesting earlier this month that posters indicate their > current >> goals and occasionally post updates on progress. There are a couple of >> things I’m hoping to fit in this autumn. At work the theme for the >> residents’ Christmas party this year is going to be ‘Stars in their Eyes’, >> where we’ll help them get dressed up as their favourite singer and put on > a >> performance (maybe miming and dancing, or karaoke-style if they prefer). >> Staff are being encouraged to participate as well. Now the strange thing > is >> that even though I was the most painfully, incredibly shy thing you could >> possibly imagine as a young child, as a ‘growed-up’ I enjoy performing, so >> whilst all the other members of staff are groaning in mock horror at the >> thought, I’m bouncing with tigger-ish enthusiasm and excitement about the >> whole business! The only problem is … I can neither sing nor dance. > I’ve >> heard robust, confident people state with absolute certainty that ANYONE > can >> sing (and dance) with a little bit of coaching. With that thought in > mind, >> here is my goal: between now and Christmas, to prepare a worthy > performance >> for the party. I think maybe my first step is finding a singing teacher. >> The other goal is to learn to use Corel Draw Graphics Suite 12. Hmmmm. >> Don’t even know what my first step is towards that goal. Adult ed. > classes, >> maybe. The difficulty is fitting all this sort of thing around the weird >> shift-pattern I work. >> Comments welcome :-) >> Anyone else got any goals to share? > Well, I’d like to have enough money to own my own island so that the RSPCA > can send all the unwanted animals over in a boat instead of putting them > down.

I saw a programme the other day, it had a couple looking for property in Fiji or Tahiti or somewhere. They turned their collective noses up at a whole island for something like

RECLAIMING SADHANA – NOURISHER OF HEALTH

admin — Wed, 14 Sep 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

India’s marathon boy, aged three By Sandeep Sahu BBC News, Bhubaneswar Biranchi Das and Budhia Singh Coach Das says Budhia could be a Guinness World Record holder He runs seven hours at a stretch, sometimes as much as 48km (30 miles). On a daily basis. And Budhia Singh is just three and a half years old. When Budhia’s father died a year ago, his mother, who washes dishes in Bhubaneswar, capital of the eastern Indian state of Orissa, was unable to provide for her four children. She sold Budhia to a man for 800 rupees ($20). But the young boy came to the attention of Biranchi Das, a judo coach and the secretary of the local judo association. Mr Das said he noticed Budhia’s talent when scolding him for being a bully. "Once, after he had done some mischief, I asked him to keep running till I came back," Mr Das told the BBC. "I got busy in some work. When I came back after five hours, I was stunned to find him still running." Mr Das, also the president of the residents’ association of the run-down area where Budhia used to live, summoned the man who had bought Budhia and paid him his 800 rupees back. Then started a strict diet and exercise regimen that saw Budhia adding a few kilometres to his daily marathon every few days. In place of a few lumps of rice that he used to get at his mother’s place, he now has a diet of eggs, milk, soybean and meat. He starts running at 0500 each day and does not stop till noon. After a few stretching exercises, he has lunch and goes for a siesta. At 1600 it is time to run again. Budhia is enjoying his stay at the judo hostel. "I can run and eat to my heart’s content here," he says. His speech is not yet easy to understand. Though he has yet to go to school, he has completed learning the alphabet of Oriya, the local language. Budhia’s coach has now set his eyes on a place in the Guinness Book of World Records. That, he says, will be possible when he can run for 90km at a stretch. "I have no doubt whatsoever that he will achieve it soon", Mr Das says. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4241958.stm

Response:

WOMEN OF VISION Reclaiming Sadhana: Nourisher of Health Let us practice wholesome activities that allow us to dance within Nature’s cosmic rhythms By Brahmacharini Maya Tiwari Hinduism Today http://www.hinduismtoday.com February 1998 My early life was fostered by wholesome practices that preserved the good Earth — the practices of sadhana. Before my birth, my family moved from the sacred land of India to the isolated land of Guyana. Because Guyana was about one hundred years behind the technological world, we were able to safeguard our ancestral memories through the practice of sadhana. The Sanskrit etymology of the word sadhana comes from the single root ’sadh,’ that bears a multitude of meanings. In its original and whole sense, however, sadhana is the wholesome activities practiced in harmony with the cyclical rhythms of nature. By practicing these activities provided by the universe to sustain salubrious health, my family secured our rhythmic, harmonic sonority with the Divine. For all humans, practice of sadhana is the vital means of accessing cognitive memory — memories gathered through our past lives. Once our cognitive memories are awakened and our remembering self begins to function, we are able to achieve resplendent health. Far away from the homeland of India, my family preserved the practice of sadhana. The land was the hearth of my people’s practice. The Vedic rituals they performed were a living recreation of the sacred, tied as they were to the bounty of the Earth and the sweat of the people. As a result, our cognate wisdom was maintained by the elders who kept these sadhanas alive. In my youth, I listened to family elders tell stories of the Earth practices of my ancestors, the ancestors of India. The Vedic heritage of India and Nepal begins with the story of the ancient sages, called rishis, who lived in Aryavarta, the sacred land of the Himalayas. Here, sadhana as a practice first emerged. These ancient sages experienced the Divine in all activities, assimilated the vibrations of the Divine and transmuted them into their thoughts, thereby bringing forth knowledge in the form of sound. Their primal intention was to cognize the infinite consciousness by communing with nature’s cosmic rhythms, bonding with the trees, herbs, rivers, animals — all of life. Within each finite form they recognized the infinite. From there, they ascended to cognize the absolute Divine Love found equally in all things. Through their sadhana, they sustained land, water, wind and fire. Although modern life is nearly an antithesis to the ancient land of Aryavarta, through the practice of sadhana, each of us can begin to recognize the infinite in the finite. By reordering our lives to move within the cosmic rhythms we can cognize the absolute Divine Love found equally and wholly in all things. Twenty years ago, I redirected myself toward living a life entwined with nature. I was led back to the Himalayas. I found myself descending from a mountain to face the light shadows of an afternoon sun, stretching across the forest of winter trees adorned with ice. The iced branches accentuated nature’s dynamic structure in fluent movement. Each branch seemed to replicate the cosmic forms, musical symbols, horns of the reindeer, delicate tear drops, letters of the Sanskrit alphabet, shapes of animals, spiral of creation and the six-pointed star of the snowflake, all brought forth from the vibration within nature. Here, in the serene Himalayan winter, I first recognized that all of nature is perpetually within sadhana. In this state of profound personal serenity I was thrust to the depths of my heart, where I discovered the true nature of sadhana. Sadhana is formed from ojas, prana and tejas. These three primordial principles coalesce into the cosmic templates of food, breath and sound. This discovery, rooted in the wisdom of the Vedas, emerged as my observance of human life within nature deepened. On top of that Himalayan mountain, my own cognition awoke to the ways of universal sadhana. The healing forces of sadhana work through nature in many ways. The leaves and bark of the trees are continually massaged by the wind; the rocks and pebbles are rubbed by the streams and rivers; the animals are brushed by the undergrowth of the forests and the birds are caressed by the wind and skies. These natural motions are part of the universe’s immense rhythms and comprise her innate practice of sadhana. All forms of life, other than the human species, naturally remain in the bliss of their Mother’s bosom, enduring life, obeying their instincts for survival. We are also equipped with this universal instinct, with cosmic impulses that irretrievably bond us to the creation. We need only redirect our life to move within the cosmic rhythms, instead of fighting the natural order, and our universal instinct will guide us. In the practice of sadhana, we may be able to resume our human birthright as stewards who safeguard all of life. Sadhana is more than humans’ mere duty to dharma. To quote Rabindranath Tagore, in discussion of one who practices sadhana: "The water does not merely cleanse our limbs, but it purifies our heart, for it touches our soul. The Earth does not merely hold our body, but it gladdens our mind, for its contact is more that a physical contact. It is a living presence." And when we learn to dance within the Earth’s cosmic rhythms, we begin to heal from a core deep within us. We experience sadhana. More at: http://www.hinduismtoday.com/ Jai Maharaj http://www.mantra.com/jai Om Shanti Hindu Holocaust Museum http://www.mantra.com/holocaust Hindu life, principles, spirituality and philosophy http://www.hindu.org http://www.hindunet.org The truth about Islam and Muslims http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate The terrorist mission of Jesus stated in the Christian bible: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not so send peace, but a sword. "For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. "And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household. - Matthew 10:34-36. o Not for commercial use. Solely to be fairly used for the educational purposes of research and open discussion. The contents of this post may not have been authored by, and do not necessarily represent the opinion of the poster. The contents are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works. o If you send private e-mail to me, it will likely not be read, considered or answered if it does not contain your full legal name, current e-mail and postal addresses, and live-voice telephone number. o Posted for information and discussion. Views expressed by others are not necessarily those of the poster who may or may not have read the article. FAIR USE NOTICE: This article may contain copyrighted material the use of which may or may not have been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. This material is being made available in efforts to advance the understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democratic, scientific, social, and cultural, etc., issues. It is believed that this constitutes a ‘fair use’ of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. 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Response:

Islam Attracts Top Britons in a Growing Trend

admin — Sun, 11 Sep 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Islam Attracts Top Britons in a Growing Trend Over 14,000 Britons have embraced Islam, according to the UK’s Sunday Times. Citing the first authoritative study of the phenomenon, the paper said that they had done so because of disillusionment with Western values. Some of Britain’s top landowners, celebrities and the offspring of senior Establishment figures have embraced Islam. The trend is being encouraged by Muslim leaders who are convinced that the conversion of prominent figures will help protect a community stigmatized by terrorism and fundamentalism. Zaki Badawi, chairman of the Imams and Mosques Council, said: "The community has been unfairly targeted and these developments encourage it in a time of difficulty."

Well, the Islamic community can do itself a favor by answering the question, "Are you here to establish Islamic law?" Pretty simple yes/no. But for some reason it isn’t being asked, and it certainly isn’t being answered.

Response:

Islam Attracts Top Britons in a Growing Trend

Imagine that! Militants infiltrating Britain’s top companies. A lot of the terrorists are on the dole in Britain. And they have the gall to criticize our President for ‘bungling’ something? Go figure. How militant Islamists are infiltrating Britain’s top companies 11 September 2005 A militant Islamist group that Tony Blair has said should be banned has members in some of Britain’s most important institutions, including the NHS and blue-chip companies such as IBM and Reuters, an Independent on Sunday investigation has revealed. The Government is due to publish legislation this week to ban Hizb ut-Tahrir, which is already proscribed in European countries such as Germany and in most of the Middle East. The Home Secretary, Charles Clarke, has undertaken to give the wording of the ban to the Opposition to secure cross-party agreement. In contrast to other groups that the Government intends to ban, the membership of Hizb ut-Tahrir is mainly middle-class and well-qualified. A significant proportion are university-educated and work in areas such as finance, information technology, health and education. Recently, the IoS disclosed that The Guardian had employed Dilpazier Aslam, a Hizb member, as a trainee journalist, and articles he wrote after the London bombings did not mention his connection with the group. He lost his job at the paper after refusing to give up his membership. The IoS has now learned that at least two members of Hizb, which seeks to form a global Islamic state regulated by sharia law, work for the computer giant IBM, and that Reuters, the international news and financial information agency, has at least one member among its employees. After being informed of this, a Reuters spokesperson said: "We require our journalists to be very sensitive to any activities which might lead to their impartiality being questioned. We of course recognise the right of people to hold their own views. "We are not aware of any of our employees being members of Hizb ut-Tahrir. If it becomes illegal, then certainly we would review the matter on the ‘Do their private actions impact our public reputation?’ principle." An IBM spokesperson said the company was assessing the impact of any new legislation. It would not disclose personnel information "for reasons of data protection". Sajjad Khan, a prominent member of Hizb who runs classes on the group’s ideology and has delivered speeches at the group’s congresses, said: "Most of our members are graduates who work and pay taxes. Very few of them are unemployed or rely on state benefits." A finance and IT specialist, he said he had worked for a number of large companies, including Tesco. Several members of Hizb are medical practitioners, including its spokesman, Dr Imran Waheed, a psychiatrist practising in London. Its women’s representative, Nazreen Nawaz, is a qualified doctor who worked in cancer research. Another member is a manager at University College Hospital, London. The group is also strong in the education sector, where a former member of the executive board lectures in IT in an east London college. The former headmistress of a prominent Islamic primary school in the same area is also a member of Hizb, as is the landlord of the building. Although Hizb ut-Tahrir insists that it has never supported violence in Britain or the Middle East, security sources accuse it of being among groups which radicalise Muslims to the point where they attract the attention of terrorist recruiters. A former Hizb ut-Tahrir activist told the IoS that behind closed doors he was encouraged to take up boxing and self-defence classes in order to "prepare for jihad". Although he never accepted full membership, he was associated with the group for nearly a decade, and said two members had told him how they had joined the Territorial Army in order to get "real" military training. After TA rules were changed and it was no longer possible to opt out of military action if asked to take part, this stopped. The organisation’s well-designed www.hizb.org.uk website replaced earlier sites such as www.1924.org, which until the London bombings used to contain material from the 100,000 leaflets and flyers handed out at mosques across Britain every Friday. Though Hizb denies being anti-Semitic, a leaflet first published in 1999 said: "The Jews … are a poisoned dagger thrust into the heart of the Islamic Ummah and [sic] evil cancerous gland which spreads deep within the Islamic countries." Until last year the same statement was carried on Hizb’s websites. When Britain’s first successful suicide bomber, Asif Hanif, blew himself up in a Tel Aviv bar in April 2003, he killed three others and injured 55. His partner, Omar Sharif, also from Derby, was found dead floating in the sea two weeks later, after his bomb failed to detonate. The June edition of Khilafah magazine that year said: "This case more than anything has shown that though the Kaffir [unbelievers] wish to seduce the Ummah away from the problems Muslims face with corrupt Western ideas such as nation statehood and the British Muslim identity, it has certainly not deterred these two young men who grew up in Britain." A discussion on a Hizb website about Western citizenship spoke of killing kaffirs – infidels or non-Muslims. "Their bonds, equality and freedoms are lies and false … We saw an Immigrant [muhajir] from Quraysh drawing closer to Allah by killing his kaffir relative," it said. This was removed days after the 7 July attacks in London. Approached for comment, Dr Waheed said the group always espoused non-violence. He denied that the Khilafah article could be interpreted "in any way" as praising violence. He refused to discuss the organisation’s membership beyond saying that they were professionals "serving their local communities". INSIDE HIZB Hizb ut-Tahrir (Party of Liberation) was founded in 1953 by a Palestinian court clerk, Taqiuddin al-Nabhani. Its aim is to establish the Caliphate, a state based upon and governed by Islamic law.In Britain, the party is headed by Jalaluddin Patel, 28, an Indian IT engineer, and has up to 10,000 members. In 2002 it was outlawed in Germany after allegations of anti-Semitism and last year three British members were sentenced to five years in jail in Egypt. http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article311824.ece

Response:

Islam Attracts Top Britons in a Growing Trend Over 14,000 Britons have embraced Islam, according to the UK’s Sunday Times. Citing the first authoritative study of the phenomenon, the paper said that they had done so because of disillusionment with Western values. Some of Britain’s top landowners, celebrities and the offspring of senior Establishment figures have embraced Islam. The trend is being encouraged by Muslim leaders who are convinced that the conversion of prominent figures will help protect a community stigmatized by terrorism and fundamentalism. Zaki Badawi, chairman of the Imams and Mosques Council, said: "The community has been unfairly targeted and these developments encourage it in a time of difficulty." Meanwhile, the Muslim Council of Britain has co-opted Joe Ahmed-Dobson, son of Frank Dobson, the former Labor health secretary, to chair its regeneration committee. The study by Yahya (formerly Jonathan) Birt, son of Lord Birt, former director-general of the BBC, provides the first reliable data on the sensitive subject of the movement of Christians into Islam. He uses a breakdown of the latest census figures to conclude that there are now 14,200 white converts in Britain. Speaking publicly for the first time about his faith, Birt, whose doctorate at Oxford University is on young British Muslims, argued that an inspirational figure, similar to the American convert Malcolm X for Afro-Caribbeans, would first have to emerge if the next stage, a mass conversion among white Britons, were to happen. "You need great transitional figures to translate something alien (like Islam) into the vernacular," he said. "The image of Islam projected by political Islamic movements is not very attractive." Initially, Birt said, he had no coherent reasons for converting, but: "In the longer term, I think it was the overall profundity, balance, coherence and spirituality of the Muslim way of life which convinced me." The faith has made inroads into the Establishment. It emerged this weekend that the great-granddaughter of a British prime minister has converted. Emma Clark, whose ancestor, the Liberal Prime Minister Herbert Asquith, took Britain into the First World War, said: "We’re all the rage; I hope it’s not a passing fashion." Clark, who helped design an Islamic garden for the Prince of Wales at Highgrove, his Gloucestershire home, is now helping create a similar garden for a mosque in Woking, Surrey, on the site of a car park. Many converts have been inspired by the writings of Charles Le Gai Eaton, a former Foreign Office diplomat. Eaton, author of ‘Islam and the Destiny of Man,’ said: "I have received letters from people who are put off by the wishy-washy standards of contemporary Christianity and they are looking for a religion which does not compromise too much with the modern world." Others have come to Islam through love or marriage. Kristiane Backer, a former friend of the cricketer Imran Khan, said she was introduced to the religion by him. She had shrunk from speaking publicly about Islam before because of fears it might affect her work prospects. Some prominent converts are even more wary. The Earl of Yarborough, 40, who owns a 28,000-acre estate in Lincolnshire, declined to discuss anything about his faith. "I have nothing to say to you," said Yarborough, who has apparently taken the name Abdul Mateen. Muslim leaders are harnessing modern campaigning methods to promote their faith. Groups have sprung up on the Internet publishing "trophy lists" of white converts. The state-funded school in London established by Yusuf Islam, formerly the singer Cat Stevens, has turned to Premiership footballers to provide role models. Sources close to the school say converts including Nicolas Anelka, the Manchester City striker, and Omer "Freddie" Kanoute, of Tottenham Hotspur, have made visits. Fresh evidence came this weekend that Islam has received formal acceptance at the heart of the Establishment. The Queen has approved arrangements to allow Muslim staff at Buckingham Palace time off to attend Friday prayers at a mosque: a member of staff in the finance department is the first to take advantage of it. http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/archive/article.php?lang=E&id=57887

Response:

Yoga Miracles II (Paul, et al)

admin — Wed, 07 Sep 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is a common misconception concerning great saints and sages. That is that they want (or should want) to change the world; to help people. I admit that I operated under this erroneous notion for a long time until I came to understand that it is not possible to help anyone, other then yourself. The universe is functioning absolutely perfectly in any and every instance throughout all of existence. There is nothing out of place. There is no wrong. There is no one suffering needlessly or gratuitously. Nor is there any such thing as unfair. Everything is just as it should be. If someone is suffering this is the natural and inevitable consequence of having broken Universal law (Puma and is what a person needs, to be motivated, to become aware and make the needed adjustments in their affairs. Yogis cannot defy Universal law, nor would they want to. If they try, they too will be reminded of their error by some form of suffering. I am very surprised you did not react to this idea.

I can understand that if I am unkind in thought or deed it will come back to me because I have messed with the positive and progressive energy within myself and created a negative, disruptive energy. That makes sense to me. If I send out a bad feeling, traces of it linger within me and affect my judgement, heath, stress levels, etc.. etc..Yep I get that. A while ago I read an abundance book by Stuart Wilde who implied that the Jews manifested the Holocaust. This is on the same track as the stuff puma comes out with, saying George Bush’s foreign policy is the cause of Katrina. I just can’t rationalise that on *any* level. I can’t resist it I’m gonna have to start a new (provocative) thread on this one… . Paul BTW, thanks for your continued wisdom Jared. I may come across a bit opinionated and brash sometimes, but it’s simply because I want to get to the guts of the matter via the shortest route, which I know, isn’t always viable. 0 ^ (Namaste smiley v1.5)

Response:

I agree, that is a bit of a stretch. Hurricanes have been happening to the land now called USA for a very long time and no doubt they will continue to happen to that land mass long after the USA is relegated to ancient history. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can’t resist it I’m gonna have to start a new (provocative) thread on this one… . Paul BTW, thanks for your continued wisdom Jared. I may come across a bit opinionated and brash sometimes, but it’s simply because I want to get to the guts of the matter via the shortest route, which I know, isn’t always viable. 0 ^ (Namaste smiley v1.5)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And therein lies the problem for me. I struggle with the concept that I must surrender all my beliefs and take a leap of faith in to Gods arms, when I have no proof of his existence. If God made me intelligent why does he want to act like a fool by abandoning my ideology to find him? You do not have to abandon anything. If something is the truth, it is the truth on all levels, including logical. When it comes to "proof" of "his" existence. It is not that one’s conception of what "he" suddenly manifests and you say "aah there you are, why where you hiding?". It is your conception that changes. Instead of the classic case of where some people think God is just a more powerful human being it changes into larger view. Why the hell are you struggling at all? Don’t think for a second that you have to knuckle under to another’s beliefs, especially if they are written down. The practice of yoga is there to make one strong and flexible, to have an open mind, to not be manipulated by others’ desires and plans. From your comments you already have much of that, do not give it away. http://www.prahlad.org/gallery/ommen_speech.htm Since having kids I have really questioned my beliefs and come to the conclusion that, rich or poor, I just want my kids to be happy. Not just full of fun, but profoundly, deeply content. That alone would fulfil me. I can’t see any way of attaining this with material possessions, so I am looking to Yoga for some clues. I have always thought religion was for mugs and still do, but Yoga is different, although the same questions apply. With Yoga or Religion one has to "let go". As an agnostic I find that a very hard task. This is not what is meant by letting go. As you go through life you may have noticed how one has been mostly wrong and how things change. You will find many people (even in yoga) who get stuck looking at pretty baubles along the way. They think they have found the truth, and the prettier the bauble the harder it is to "let go" and leave it behind. Don’t become a bird in a gilded cage. Wade

Thanks Wade, thanks to you and others, I am *slowly* starting to grasp this stuff.

Response:

them. What can I say? It is human (animal or lizard brain) nature to kill what we can’t understand or frightens us. What happened in New Orleans is a little different to A Yogi performing a "miracle". Because? Were you going to provide an example or rational or am I to take your assertion on "faith?" Of course they are massively different! One is an freak storm causing death and destruction. The other is a bloke in a loin cloth doing something groovy for the benefit of mankind. How much more different could they be?

I guess I didn’t do well at making my point here. Oh well, I’m sure we will visit again some time Besides, why assume that people would react with violence or with any malice at all? For a Yogi, it appears you have little faith in the spirit of the masses. The definition of a "yogi" is anyone who studies or practices yoga. That makes you a yogi. Welcome to the club The fact that someone is a yogi does not suppose any qualification as to experience, skill or disposition. Perhaps you were thinking of a "swam," "shadhu, saint, sage or any individual who has taken "vows of renunciation" or otherwise committed themselves to life of adoration and service to God. Regardless of which category you fit into, the statement still stands.

See above. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is a common misconception concerning great saints and sages. That is that they want (or should want) to change the world; to help people. I admit that I operated under this erroneous notion for a long time until I came to understand that it is not possible to help anyone, other then yourself. The universe is functioning absolutely perfectly in any and every instance throughout all of existence. There is nothing out of place. There is no wrong. There is no one suffering needlessly or gratuitously. Nor is there any such thing as unfair. Everything is just as it should be. If someone is suffering this is the natural and inevitable consequence of having broken Universal law (Puma and is what a person needs, to be motivated, to become aware and make the needed adjustments in their affairs. Yogis cannot defy Universal law, nor would they want to. If they try, they too will be reminded of their error by some form of suffering.

I am very surprised you did not react to this idea. snip They tried to stone Jesus to death a half dozen times and finally he was crucified. I would call that set upon. Moses? Well duh, he was saving their lives, what reason (fear or otherwise) would they have to kill him? So you believe Jesus was persecuted for performing miracles rather than saying he was the son of God? Please! I don’t remember reading anything along the lines of "Kill him he healed that womans Aunt" in the Bible.

Yes I believe it was because he "healed" on the Sabbath. As for Moses, you seem to be contradicting yourself. Up until now you have implied that the masses would react adversely to "miracles". I didn’t know there were any caveats to that statement, there are none in 7:6. How did those people know that the sea wouldn’t swallow them up and moses was luring them to there deaths?

I can’t be held responsible for "implications". I am not in control of those in any way snip Also, I did not call you inept, I merely I stated I thought your opinion was wrong. Wait, there must be a difference here. IneptS wrong? IneptS wrong? IneptSwrong? Hmm.. Sorry can’t see it I said "I disagree", not "You are a buffoon". Quite a big difference

OK So while you kindly characterize omjaroo as being witty and wise (thank you BTW) when I quoted the bible you did not assume years of study and synthesis of written Truth in many traditions and ask for clarification. Rather it appears you assumed an assault on your believes and your intelligence as well as a hypocritical pronouncement by a bible thumping zealot. No no no!!! I did not accuse **YOU** of hypocrisy. I said that 7:6 is hypocritical! And why would I assume anything about you from a quote?!. It was a quote and I treated it as such..someone else’s words.

Oh, now I understand. Sorry my mistake. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m disappointed you didn’t respond to this. Done :O) (my bad, by this time I am teasing you) Mat 7:1 concerning judgment. In this case I thought it was you who (mis)judged me . Meanwhile I am having fun noticing that all these quotes are in the same chapter and just a few verses away for each other Now it is clear to me that you are sensitive to traditional western religious notions and so I will, in the future, be more sympathetic about chiding you or trying to convey an idea to you with bible quotes. I am not sensitive to Religious notions at all! The Bible has some beuatiful stuff in it. What I do find objective is plagarism dressed up as wisdom. I could quote Wordsworth or Shelly all day, but it would offer no insight into *my* thoughts. So please in future use your own words they have more substance, humour and wisdom than Bible quotes ever will. Thanks for saying so and I’ll give you humor but where do you suppose some of my substance and wisdom come from? Youy imagination, your spirit, your experiences and least of all books. It is your interpretation of literature and life that is important to me, not your memory.

I suppose you are correct. However I think you underestimate how important books (the imagination, spirit and experience of others) have been in my growing up and maturing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This brings us to what someone has already so fittingly pointed out the "siddhis" or "powers" are not the point of yoga. To display them would be most inappropriate for a number of reasons which I believe were covered in the original thread. But if you are still unclear, by all means reframe the question and ask. As you read, you will hear this discussed time and again. Which reminds me; all of the questions you are struggling with will be answered in the course of your reading and study. Hence the Mat 7:7-8 citation and an earlier admonishment to continue to read, study and practice for a year or two at which time you will be amazed at how many of your questions will be answered. My rebuttal is detailed above. And yes, I am still on my Yogic journey, I don’t just come here for a fight. ;O) Yes I believe you. Do you suppose I am here for a fight? When you focus your struggle inward towards yourself (the Self) then the arguments with persons, places and things outside of you will no longer hold any meaning. You are not fighting (discussing) with me you are fighting with yourself. I understand that. I do the same thing. We all do. God is not the problem, nor religion, nor suffering, nor is there any problem outside of us at all. It’s all an inside job, as they say. Think about it. If you were dead this moment, what would this discussion or anything outside of your real Self mean at all. Yes, exactly nothing. Remember you are the only Thing in the Universe. You are Everything in the Universe. You are the Universe. This is Yoga. This is why we practice yoga. So we can appreciate, understand and live with this knowledge (Truth). You just blew my socks off again! :O)

Er, eh, what’s that you say sonny? Can’t find yer socks? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now about my indifference Which I believe was probably more your impatience. True. I can’t be sure you did not respond to that post. Insert (explanation, response, apology, etc) here Anyway, as I read it you believe I was "ducking" the answering of your questions by quoting the bible, rather than I was giving you my opinion by quoting scripture. Given what you have shared about yourself and your search, I can see and appreciate your thinking. I hope I have clarified my references to the bible and how they relate to the display of yogic "miracles". No. Sort of. My opinion is shifting all the time…

That’s the nature of opinions, I suppose. Truth on the other hand never shifts. It is what it is. And finally (I think Did I mention there is no such thing as a "miracle". Every happenstance in existence has a cause which is intelligent. After all God is Intelligence and would never create anything that deifies the rules of how things work. That would be downright idiotic and very unGodlike Things sometimes appear to be miraculous when we can not see or understand the system underpinning them. But its there none the less. I made a great big jump here, did you notice? ?

I guess that means you didn’t. Oh well, just thought I would point that out because I do that sometimes. I will dismiss an entire idea or line of discussion because it isn’t even related to reality in the first place. Or I will point out that what’s being discussed is not in alignment with what is True (what really exists) and that we are speaking in or with symbols which have no objective existence. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did I cover it? Sure, we are using the word "miracle" loosely to describe a Yogi doing something inspiring in public view. Thanks for sharing *your* thoughts Jared, you are rarely less than provocative. You’re

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Howdy! re: "One should want proof before one believes any religion " Are you talking about proof or EVIDENCE? There’s a big difference! Well its desirable to have proof that a religion is true insofar as proof is available, and lacking such complete proof one would have to decide what to do with any evidence or information one had. If there was proof it would no longer be "religion" — it would be "fact."

As far as you can see, religion is only a matter of belief, not of fact. If faith and proof are not diametrically opposed they are, at the very least, mutually exclusive.

I don’t agree. You’d have to define very carefully what you mean by faith. I may say that I am of the "opinion" that what I know to be a fact is true, but only to accomodate another’s opinion, which might be irrelevant to me, and as a sign that I’m not interested in arguing about it with a fanatic or someone who doesn’t want to change his opinion. You’re talking about blind faith though. I’m not talking about blind faith, but I am talking about scientific proof.

There can be other sorts of proof than scientific ie laboratory proof. If you have one there is no need of the other! There’s a big need for the other if one’s blind faith is leading one in the wrong direction, as in the case of suicide bombers for instance. Are we talking about "the wrong direction" according to the light of the believer or according to the light of a third party, like you or me?

I’m talking about what is for the good of all concerned. Were the crusades "the wrong direction"? No intentional suicide there, just wanton slaughter and people going to a foreign land willing to die in order to promote their faith.

Well, they were based on ignorance, and they were not for their own good or the ones who were slaughtered by the crusaders. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Namaste Dave

Dishonest Conclusions

admin — Sun, 04 Sep 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

However, history shows that the Muslim world was at its social, economic and intellectual summit when it was ruled by Islamic law. But how high was that summit? Perhaps it was comparable to that of The Holy Roman Empire, but did either entity approach the social, economic and intellectual level of modern countries of today?

Most western industrial provincial (state) capitals have more industry, human and military capital than the whole Roman Empire. Most of their citizens live a life beyond the dreams of any ancient king. Intellectually, well, I leave that debate to the intellectuals.

Response:

However, history shows that the Muslim world was at its social, economic and intellectual summit when it was ruled by Islamic law.

But how high was that summit? Perhaps it was comparable to that of The Holy Roman Empire, but did either entity approach the social, economic and intellectual level of modern countries of today? It was only when the newly created nation-states began pursuing other ideologies that the Islamic world fell into decline.

My impression is that the west gained an advantage as a result of reducing reliance on religious dogma as a source of truth and placing greater reliance on science and philosophy. As a result Western countries were able to leap ahead in science, and consequently in medicine, economics, politics, technology and so on. Then competition between Western countries for resources drove them into a competition for colonies–from which no weaker country was safe. How could Muslim countries effectively resist? A number of non-Western countries resisted colonisation by introducing the scientific and philosophical ideas that had allowed Western countries to become powerful. These included Japan, Thailand and Turkey among others. The example of Turkey is relevant to this discussion, because Kemal Atat