Christianity QA

Question:

I was somewhat hasty in the prepration of my initial post.  Its lack of clarity has caused the usual respondents to draw erroneous conclusions. Consequently an amended comment is resubmitted to the newsgroups.  My apologies for any inconvenience. THE OFFICE OF PRIEST & THE MELCHIZEDEK FRAUD http://www.users.bigpond.com/dolfboek/checksum.html#WORK In the Chapter entitled ‘Is God Particular?’ http://www.users.bigpond.com/dolfboek/particular.html#KABBALAH we examined the notion that within Orthodox Christianity, there emerged a theological conception that ‘humans are a microcosm of the universe and that which is shared, the essence of all things, is God.’ [John Scotus Eriugena (c.810-c.877); Ref: History of Mysticism - http://www.users.bigpond.com/dolfboek/mind.html#HISTORY ] Such a view of the Transcendent Nature of God http://www.users.bigpond.com/dolfboek/destitute.html#COSMOLOGY drew its impetus from an evolutionary development in the theological schemas of the day. Most popular amongst them and that which were still deployed by the time of St. Thomas Aquinas (1224-1275 CE – http://www.users.bigpond.com/dolfboek/octahedron.html#MARRY), was the angelic mystical schema proposed by the 6th century theologian Dionysius the Areopagite (Pseudo-Dionysius). Dionysius originated the distinction between cataphatic and apophatic theology and in his treatise, ‘The Ecclesiastical Hierarchy’, sought to establish angelic orders of intelligences which were reflected in the structure of the earthly church and presupposed to formed a continuum between God and the believer. These they typically classed into three Hierarchies, appointing them their respective offices in the performance of the word and will of God: First Order (Those closest to God); Second Order (Composed of the priest-princes of the court of heaven) and the Third Order (Constituted by the ministering angels). [Davidson, Dictionary of Angels, 1967] Pope Innocent III in his 1198 CE mystical treatise on Empire and Papacy, seeming draws upon these mythological allegories when he accordingly defines the Papal authority, as "The creator of the universe set up two great luminaries in the firmament of heaven; the greater light to rule the day, the lesser light to rule the night. In the same way for the firmament of the universal Church, which is spoken of as heaven, he appointed two great dignities; the greater to bear rule over souls (these being, as it were, days), the lesser to bear rule over bodies (those being, as it were, nights). These dignities are the pontifical authority and the royal power. Furthermore, the moon derives her light from the sun, and is in truth inferior to the sun in both size and quality, in position as well as effect. In the same way the royal power derives its dignity from the pontifical authority: and the more closely it cleaves to the sphere of that authority the less is the light with which it is adorned; the further it is removed, the more it increases in splendor." ['Pope Innocent III on Empire and Papacy 'The Moon and the Sun' Sicut universitatis conditor. Ep. i, 401, October 1198 P.L. ccxiv. 337. Mirbt, no. 326; Ref: Courtesy Michael Scheifler's Bible Light - http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/vatican.htm ] It is the understanding of the metaphysical nature http://www.users.bigpond.com/dolfboek/philadelphia.html#METATHESIS of these transcendent hierarchies intrinsically conveyed by priestly orders of service and systems of exegesis which provides the opportunity to piece together one of Scriptures and the Dead Sea Scrolls biggest puzzles: "You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it. When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at with with their teeth. But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and said, ‘Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!." [Acts of the Apostles 7:51-56] There is no doubt that the Christian Theology on this priestly order is intrinsically connected to King David’s 365-day solar calendar and its 24 orders of priestly service: "And David {well-beloved, dear}, son of Jesse {gift; oblation; one who is – http://www.users.bigpond.com/dolfboek/keyofdavid.html#MERARI }, was wise, and a light like light of the sun, and learned, and discerning, and perfect in all his paths before God and men. And Yahweh gave him a discerning and enlightened spirit. And he wrote psalms: three thousand six hundred; and songs to be sung before the altar over the perpetual offering of every day, for all the days of the year: three hundred and sixty-four; and for the sabbath offerings: fifty-two songs; and for the offerings of the first days of the months, and for all the days of the festivals, and for the Day of Atonement: thirty songs. And all the songs which he spoke were four hundred and forty-six. And the songs to perform over the possessed: four. The total was four thousand and fifty. All these he spoke through the spirit of prophecy which had been given to him from before the Most High." [11Q5 - 11QPsalms Col. XXVII:2-11, DSS BRILL 1998:1179] Who or what is the Priestly Order of Melchizedek? "Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life. For He testifies: ‘You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.’ For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God." [Hebrews 7:11-19] Sufficient Dead Sea Scroll fragments remain to be able to obtain and extrapolate the essential theological elements. The Priestly Order of Melchizedek appears comprised of an elite priestly class: "Praise the God of all the august heights, all (you) eternal holy ones, those second among the priests of the inner sanctum, the second council in the wonderful dwellings among the seven…among all those having knowledge of eternal things. And exalt him, you chiefs of the princes with his wonderful portion. Praise the God of gods, … you seven priesthoods of his inner sanctum… height, seven wonderful territories, in the regulations of his sanctuaries, the chiefs of the princes of the wonderful priesthoods of Mechizedek?" [11Q17 - 11QSongs of the Sabbath Sacrifice, DSS BRILL 1998:1213] – dolf Which is our point.  The Catholic Church has been teaching what the Apostles taught for 2000 years.  It’s you Protestants who claim to be ignorant of what the Apostles taught, not us.   I’m not sure what that entirely says about your claim to be both Christian and ignorant–Perhaps it implies a state of spiritual medocrity and hypocrisy.

 Sounds more like you than me.  After all, I quote the Early Church Fathers, not ancient greek homosexuals, when talking aobut my religion.  [snipped for context]

Response:

The Office of New Testament Priest by James Akin In both Old and New Testaments, there are three ranks of priests, which are commonly referred to as the high priests, the ministerial priests, and the universal priests. At the time of the Exodus the high priest was Aaron (Ex. 31:30), the ministerial priests were his four sons (Ex. 28:21; the sons were Nadab, Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar, the first two of which were killed for abusing their priestly duties), and the universal priests were the people of Israel as a whole (Exodus 19:6). Prior to this time, there had been neither a high priest nor had God elected all of Israel as universal priests. There was only the ministerial priesthood, which appears to have resided in the firstborn male of each family. The existence of the pre-Aaronic ministerial priesthood is shown in Exodus 19:22 and 24, which differentiate the priests from the people but occur before the establishment in the Aaronic priesthood in Exodus 28. The fact that the ministerial priests were held by the firstborn is suggested (though not proven) by the exchange of the priestly tribe of Levi for the firstborn of Israel in Numbers 3. In any event, the three-fold model of the priesthood which was in use at the time of Aaron was carried over into the New Testament and thus we find there also a high priest, ministerial priests, and universal priests. In the New Testament age the high priest is Jesus Christ (Heb. 3:1), the ministerial priests are Christ’s ordained ministers of the gospel (Rom. 15:16), and the universal priests are the entire Christian people (1 Peter. 2:5, 9). So the Bible clearly states that all Christians are priests (1 Peter 2:5, 9), as the Catholic Church clearly teaches for all who bother to read its teachings, see Catechism of the Catholic Church 1141-4, 1268, 1305, 1535, 1547, 1591-2 on the common priesthood. But the Bible also said the same thing about the Israelites (Ex. 19:6), yet this did not prevent there from being a separate, ministerial priesthood even before the Law of Moses was given (Ex. 19:22, 24). Furthermore, since the top, Old Testament office of high priest corresponds to Jesus, the New Testament high priest, and since the bottom, Old Testament universal priesthood corresponds to the New Testament universal priesthood, the middle, ministerial priesthood in the Old Testament corresponds to a middle, ministerial priesthood in the New Testament. This priesthood is identical with the office of elder. In fact, the term "priest" is simply a shortened, English version of the Greek word for "elder" — presbuteros — as any dictionary will confirm. This is any some Old Catholic translations render the word as "priests" where Protestant Bibles have "elder." For example, in the Douay-Rheims Bible (the Catholic equivalent of the King James Version) we read: "For this cause I left thee in Crete, that thou shouldst set in order the things that are wanting, and shouldst ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee" (Titus 1:5). "Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the Church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil, in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man; and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him" (James 5:14-15). We also see in the New Testament that the functions of the Old Testament elder — who served in the synagogue — have been fused with the functions of the Old Testament priest — whose served in the temple. We can see the fusion of the two concepts in Romans 15:15-16. In the New International Version of this passage, we read: "I have written you quite boldly on some points, as if to remind you of them again, because of the grace God gave me to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty [literally, "the priestly work"] of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit." Paul tells us that because he has been given a calling as a professional minister of Christ, he has a priestly work of preaching the gospel so that the Gentiles may be an offering — a sacrifice to God. This is not something only he has. Every elder in every church has that same "priestly work" of preaching the gospel. So Paul here conceives of the office of the New Testament minister as a priestly office. Notice that the hearers of the gospel in this passage are not depicted as priests, but as the sacrifice to God. Paul draws a distinction between himself and his work of preaching the gospel, and his readers and their duty of hearing it. It is the minister, not the congregation, who is here pictured as priest. A second passage revealing the fusion of the offices of Old Testament elder and Old Testament priest is Revelation 5:8, where we read: "And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." Here we have the twenty-four heavenly elders (presbyteroi) depicted as offering incense to God in bowls, just as the Old Testament priests did with their own gold incense bowls (Num. 7:84-86). It is especially important to note that this was a function only priests could perform, as indicated a few chapters later, in Numbers 16, which records the story of Korah’s rebellion. This story concerns precisely the issue which is before us today: Whether the fact that all believers are priests means that there is no ministerial priesthood. Korah said it does mean that, and he gathered a rebellion against Moses and Aaron to usurp the priesthood from them. Numbers 16 says: "Now Korah . . . and Dathan and Abiram . . . took men; and they rose up before Moses, with a number of the people of Israel, two hundred and fifty leaders of the congregation, chosen from the assembly, well-known men; and they assembled themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said . . . ‘You have gone too far! For all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them; why then do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the LORD?’ When Moses heard it, he fell on his face; and he said . . . ‘In the morning the LORD will show who is his, and who is holy . . . Do this: take censers . . . put fire in them and put incense upon them before the LORD tomorrow, and the man whom the LORD chooses shall be the holy one. You have gone too far, sons of Levi! . . . [I]s it too small a thing for you that the God of Israel has separated you from the congregation of Israel . . . would you seek the priesthood also? Therefore it is against the LORD that you and all your company have gathered together; what is Aaron that you murmur against him?’" (Num. 16:1-11). After this you can guess what happened. The men loaded up their censers and tried to offer incense before the Lord, but God caused the earth to open its mouth and swallow up Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, then he caused fire to come out of the Tabernacle and swallow up the two hundred and fifty men offering incense, showing that they were not to be priests, not the ones to offer incense, even though God had said that in one sense the whole congregation were priests. Thus, in the Old Testament God was willing to kill people that are not priests who offer incense to him. So when we see the elders (presbyteroi) doing so in his heavenly temple, we must infer that they are priests. A fusion of the office of elder and priest has taken place. Scripture takes the distinction between clergy and laity very seriously. Both Old and New Testaments warn people against assuming an office to which they have not been ordained. For example, I direct your attention to Jude 11, a verse most people gloss over when they read the book. That verse discusses various wicked Church leaders and states, "Woe to them! For they walk in the way of Cain, and abandon themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam’s error, and perish in Korah’s rebellion." It is therefore possible for people, even in the New Testament, to perish in Korah’s rebellion by usurping the office of the priesthood. And notice that it is not only those who actually perform the priestly duties that are subject to death, but those who follow those that have usurped priestly duties. God also killed those lay people who merely supported Korah and his pseudo-priests. Moses also had to intercede to keep God from killing those in the congregation who merely supported Korah, even though they did not themselves offer incense. Later, when the people grumbled after Korah was dead, Moses again had to intervene to stop God from killing them all, but almost 15,000 of them died anyway for being followers of Korah. It is against this sin that the book of Jude warns us, because the same thing can happen in the New Testament age. We cannot confine the warning against Korah’s rebellion to the Old Testament age. Jude tells us it was going on in his day as well. Just as Korah, Dathan, and Abiram came along and said, "Hey, in Exodus 19 God said we are all priests, so we don’t need a ministerial priesthood; we can do that ourselves!" today people come along and say, "Hey, in 1st Peter God said we are all priests, so we don’t need a ministerial priesthood; we can do that ourselves!" Finally, we can see the fusion of the offices of elder and priest in the fact that the church is a combination of the Old Testament synagogue (where the teaching occurred) and the Old Testament temple (where the sacrifice occurred). The New Testament church incorporates both of these elements, with the liturgy of the word (teaching) and the liturgy of the Eucharist (sacrifice), which has been the structure of Christian worship since the first century. This brings us to the principle sacrifice of the New Testament priesthood, which is the Eucharist or Lord’s Supper. To see the … read more »

Response:

Have you done any studies on the cultus of Melchizedek?

Do I care?  The Apostles taught this, just look at the writings of the Early Church Fathers. The problem with you, Dolf, is that you think if the same word is used in two different cultures from centuries apart, it must be the same culture. That’s as much of a lie as anything else I’ve ever seen. Ted – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Which is our point.  The Catholic Church has been teaching what the Apostles taught for 2000 years.  It’s you Protestants who claim to be ignorant of what the Apostles taught, not us. I’m not sure what that entirely says about your claim to be both Christian and ignorant–Perhaps it implies a state of spiritual medocrity and hypocrisy. Sounds more like you than me.  After all, I quote the Early Church Fathers, not ancient greek homosexuals, when talking aobut my religion. [snipped for context]

– Theodore Michael Seeber Coo! he’s the remedial beer. Check out the <A HREF="http://www.aracnet.com/~seebert"IDIC Home Page!</A $6.66, the sale price of the Beast, but only if you call in the next 20 minutes.

Response:

Have you done any studies on the cultus of Melchizedek? I ask this because one of the earliest order schemas was that of the early 6th century theologian Dionysius the Areopagite (Pseudo-Dionysius). His Celestial Hierarchy was the most influential treatise in Christian angelology and received added authority when adopted many centuries later by Thomas Aquinas, which he articulates in his Summa Theologica. Generally ancient authors define nine orders as the Ennead of these celestial spirits, of which, only the last two ‘Archangels and Angels’ were regarded as having human contact: 1 – Seraphim {Uriel – Fire of God, Regent of the Sun}; 2 – Cherubim {Jophiel – ?}; 3 – Thrones {Japhkiel – ?}; 4 – Dominions {Zadkiel – Righteousness of God}; 5 – Virtues {Haniel (Simiel, Onoel, Hamiel, Anael) – Glory or Grace of God/He who sees God; Reputed to have transported Enoch to heaven}; 6 – Powers {Raphael – God has healed, Angel of healing, science and knowledge}; 7 – Principalities {Camael/Kemuel – Personification of Divine Justice}; 8 – Archangels {Michael – Who is as God?, Tutelary Prince of Israel, Angel of repentance}; 9 – Angels. According to the another Dionysian work, The Ecclesiastical Hierarchy, the angelic orders are reflected in the structure of the earthly church and therefore form a continuum between God and the believer. These they classed into Three Hierarchies, appointing them their respective offices in the performance of the word and will of God: First Order (Those closest to God); Second Order (Composed of the priest-princes of the court of heaven) and the third order (Constituted by the ministering angels). [Davidson, Dictionary of Angels, 1967] It is the understanding of these hierarchies as priestly orders of service and systems of exegesis which provides the opportunity to piece together one of Scriptures and the Dead Sea Scrolls biggest puzzles?  Who or what is the Priestly Order of Melchizedek? "Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life. For He testifies: ‘You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.’ For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God." [Hebrews 7:11-19] The Priestly Order of Melchezidek appears comprised of an elite priestly class: "Praise the God of all the august heights, all (you) eternal holy ones, those second among the priests of the inner sanctum, the second council in the wondeful dwellings among the seven…among all those having knowledge of eternal things.  And exalt him, you chiefs of the princes with his wonderful portion.  Praise the God of gods, … you seven priesthoods of his inner sanctum… height, seven wonderful territories, in the regulations of his sanctuaries, the chiefs of the princes of the wonderful priesthoods of Mechizedek?" [11Q17 - 11QSongs of the Sabbath Sacrifice, DSS BRILL 1998: 1213] There is no doubt that the theology of this priestly order is intrinsically connected to King David’s 365-day solar calendar and its 24 orders of priestly service.  Sufficient fragments remain to be able to obtain and extrapolate the essential theological elements. – dolf Which is our point.  The Catholic Church has been teaching what the Apostles taught for 2000 years.  It’s you Protestants who claim to be ignorant of what the Apostles taught, not us. I’m not sure what that entirely says about your claim to be both Christian and ignorant–Perhaps it implies a state of spiritual medocrity and hypocrisy.

Sounds more like you than me.  After all, I quote the Early Church Fathers, not ancient greek homosexuals, when talking aobut my religion. [snipped for context]

Response:

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