Christianity QA » Christian Worship » Are the souls of those Frozen Embryos frozen or are they
Question:
How so? If Pbarker is lamenting the fact it is gone then seems to me it has been accepted by some, if not many. I was even taught about limbo when I was in the dark grasps of the Catholics. False doctrine? Perhaps, but then it seems that untruth is popular. Oh here we go. Another Catholic that has seen the light. I don’t deny that it was taught for many years. I deny that it was ever Catholic doctrine. You do understand the difference I hope.
Sure there is a difference, no denying that. But it was taught nonetheless and many have believed and that is not to be denied. Just because it is not doctrine does not mean the teaching is any less false. You do understand, I hope. It was a theological idea that became more popular after the Jansenists declared that any child who died without being baptized was going to burn in hell. I suspect the real truth is closer to being introduced by the pagans who have added many things to the Catholic church. Man-made tradition began creeping into church teachings around 324 A.D. when Emperor Constantine made Christianity the official religion. The pagans then got into the church to gain the rights of Christians and in doing so brought in much of their pagan tradition and rituals. The pagans did this because they found Christian worship too simple after practicing their own elaborate pagan ritualistic tradition. Have you been talking to Peter Terry?
No. Nor the Pope. Just listening to the Holy Spirit. There is no doubt that some traditions, (note that is with a small t) are the result of pagan influences, the Church doesn’t deny it. They are not matters of faith and morals.
But if they become teachings that beguile people are they not just as real no matter if they are "t"radition or not? Before this happened there were no confessionals, statues, rosaries, votive candles, holy water, images, relics, medals, vestments, scapulars, signs of the cross, prayers for the dead, purgatory, limbo, prayers to Mary and the saints, novenas, popes, priests, nuns, celibacy of clergy, sacrifices of the mass, lent, etc. Also, there were not seven sacraments; just the only two in Holy Scripture: baptism and communion. Nope, don’t buy all of this.
Of course you don’t, you would rather embrace what you want and deny what is not convenient. There were 7 Sacraments from the beginning. The way they were celibrated may have changed, but they were always there.Many of the things you mention were carried over from Judaism. I realize your Bible is missing a few books, it was easy for the Protestants to gnore whatever didn’t fit in. The Sacrifice, note, there is only one Sacrifice is the same Sacrifice that was made on Calvary. It is beyond time and space. Every Mass brings us to the foot of the Cross. In pastoral practice many priests used the concept to help upset parents deal with the lose of a child. So, you endorse false teaching to help those grieving? I don’t consider it false teaching. It was not doctrine.
If limbo does not exist it is false no matter what label you put on it. Tell me your flavor of Protestantism, and a little bit of time, and we’ll see how different concepts have been replaced with more sound theology. Or….are you one of those people who are afraid to tell what flavor they are? Tell you what Falcon. Write out an outline of your beliefs. We’ll take it from there.
I do not understand your "flavor" term. Not being obtuse, just want to be on the same page. I understand you need to point fingers at the Church you left. I have been there myself. It makes it easier to ignore the pit in the bottom of your stomach everytime you think about what you have done. The doubts. It never goes away Falcon. You either learn to live with it, or you sit down and find out the real truth about Catholicism. I say this with love. I would be willing to discuss anything at all with you, if you are willing to open your mind and heart. I do not wish to convert you, I only want to show you what you missed the first time around.
I will and do say the same to you. As much as you might think me attacking the Catholics, it is not, it is trying to shine a light on the darkness out of caring and move, not hatred and judgement. Ciao, Falcon #### To reply via email remove "7" from address #### # Failure is not an option # # It comes bundled with the software #
Response:
"Falcon" wrote That was basically the point I was/am trying to make to a stubborn (Grin) Scout Lady. Whether it is doctrine, dogma, teaching or whatever, it is perceived as a "truth and fact" for numerous Catholics. + Ahhh. OK. + You are right of course. + Many Catholics believe things that don’t even make sense. + They aren’t even sure what they believe or why they believe it.
Yes, I agree completely and that is one of the reasons, in my mind at least, why Catholics, in general, just follow along with church teaching without seeing that some are very contrary to what God has told us. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -+ Others have thought it all out and know what they believe. + I know I read things that peak my interest all the time. + Like Limbo going away. + It was a tough thing to envision in the first place. + It had no scripture base, but it did make sense to me… + Since I haven’t heard the term in years, I just wondered. She (Scout Lady) did not answer the question either. Kind of side stepped it with "I don’t consider it false teaching. It was not doctrine." So, apparently, in her view, if it is not "doctrine" it does not matter if it is true or a false belief no matter how many people believe it. + Then you actually asked the question in earnest? + If so, then you deserve an earnest answer. + The quick answer is "no." + I do endorse trying to help a grieving family. + I endorse telling them that God knows what is best. + I endorse telling them that "I’m sure that God has a special place for your child." + I endorse trying to lighten their burden. + I certainly tell them that God is the answer.
Thank you for your answer, it is a good answer. I would add another thought for you to consider. Why does God need a special place for babies, children, mentally deficient people who cannot reason or think clearly, etc? He does not, that is the answer. God is a God of grace and mercy, He needs no special place for them, He already has a place, called Heaven, that will suffice just fine. Do not confine God to earthly bounds, He is majestically above that type of thinking. God Himself told us how special children are and their place in Heaven: Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven." He also stated: "Whoever receives one of these little children in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me, receives not Me but Him who sent Me." There was never a need for the man-made falsehood of limbo, God told us already how and what He thinks of children and their place of importance in His Kingdom. Ciao, Falcon #### To reply via email remove "7" from address #### # Failure is not an option # # It comes bundled with the software #
Response:
"Gabby" < wrote … Mass is not the time for instruction, it’s a time for worship and praise. The proper place for things like that is the Parish Bulletin (which unfortunately most people chuck in the garbage every week) and proper religion discussion groups (we’re hoping to set one up in our parish this fall). We try to publish something in the bulletin each week to cover different areas that may be problematic for our parishioners — i.e. the great difference between Mass and a Liturgy of the Word with Communion which some people seem to feel are the same thing.
+ Excellent insight. + My parish is in a bit of turmoil right now, trying to raise enough money to double the size of the church, at the same time keeping all the ministries going. I attended one bible study, but the "teacher" was a bit too formal. RCIA is meant for new people. Perhaps an insert in the bulletin – on "what we believe" would be appropriate each week. + Thanks for the thoughts.
Response:
"Lars" wrote … "Lars" wrote m… in limbo because they have not been baptized? LOL……Are you serious? Ha ha ha…… What about the millions of non-Christians? Are they all in limbo too? Religion makes people into zombies… + Lars – this could be a serious topic of discussion, if you let it. Serious? That a frozen embryo is considered a human life? Now is that
serious? How many men who masterbate? Is that killing also? + Are you a religious person at all? I am a spiritual person…. Do you believe in Jesus? I do not need organized religion……Catholicism is all about politics
and money nowadays……Jesus has nothing to do with it anymore…. + If so, we can go further. + If not, the discussion is mute. Who says so? You?
+ Since I could be half of the conversation, then yes, that is my input at this time. + In order for two people to "discuss" anything, they must speak the same language, and have some sort of common beginning. I was merely trying to find a common beginning prior to our discussion. + I am sorry if I have offended you, and good day to you. Patrick
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"CeCe" wrote … in limbo because they have not been baptized? There is no such thing as Limbo anymore. They did away with it. + They did? + Tell me it aint so…… + Where was I when it went away?
Yep, it’s true. They did away with Limbo some time ago, not sure exactly when. It is generally accepted that babies that die without baptism are taken straight to Heaven due to the mercy of God. CeCe — I do not feel obligated to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forego their use. –Galileo Galilei
Response:
"CeCe" wrote … in limbo because they have not been baptized? There is no such thing as Limbo anymore. They did away with it. + They did? + Tell me it aint so…… + Where was I when it went away?
Since limbo never existed except in the false teachings of the Catholic church the Pope can arbitrarily remove it or bring it back anytime he so chooses. Ciao, Falcon #### To reply via email remove "7" from address #### # Failure is not an option # # It comes bundled with the software #
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "CeCe" wrote … in limbo because they have not been baptized? There is no such thing as Limbo anymore. They did away with it. + They did? + Tell me it aint so…… + Where was I when it went away? Since limbo never existed except in the false teachings of the Catholic church the Pope can arbitrarily remove it or bring it back anytime he so chooses. Limbo was never doctrine, so your claim of it being a false teaching is false in itself.
How so? If Pbarker is lamenting the fact it is gone then seems to me it has been accepted by some, if not many. I was even taught about limbo when I was in the dark grasps of the Catholics. False doctrine? Perhaps, but then it seems that untruth is popular. It was a theological idea that became more popular after the Jansenists declared that any child who died without being baptized was going to burn in hell.
I suspect the real truth is closer to being introduced by the pagans who have added many things to the Catholic church. Man-made tradition began creeping into church teachings around 324 A.D. when Emperor Constantine made Christianity the official religion. The pagans then got into the church to gain the rights of Christians and in doing so brought in much of their pagan tradition and rituals. The pagans did this because they found Christian worship too simple after practicing their own elaborate pagan ritualistic tradition. Before this happened there were no confessionals, statues, rosaries, votive candles, holy water, images, relics, medals, vestments, scapulars, signs of the cross, prayers for the dead, purgatory, limbo, prayers to Mary and the saints, novenas, popes, priests, nuns, celibacy of clergy, sacrifices of the mass, lent, etc. Also, there were not seven sacraments; just the only two in Holy Scripture: baptism and communion. In pastoral practice many priests used the concept to help upset parents deal with the lose of a child.
So, you endorse false teaching to help those grieving? Ciao, Falcon Pope Pius VI in 1794 said that one could believe in a middle state of happiness, and still be Catholic. He condemned the false teaching that any child that died without baptism was hell bound. This is the only mention of Limbo in any significant Catholic document, and it is a long way from saying it existed infallibly.
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Response:
"Lars" wrote m… in limbo because they have not been baptized? LOL……Are you serious? Ha ha ha…… What about the millions of non-Christians? Are they all in limbo too? Religion makes people into zombies… + Lars – this could be a serious topic of discussion, if you let it.
Serious? That a frozen embryo is considered a human life? Now is that serious? How many men who masterbate? Is that killing also? + Are you a religious person at all?
I am a spiritual person…. Do you believe in Jesus? I do not need organized religion……Catholicism is all about politics and money nowadays……Jesus has nothing to do with it anymore…. + If so, we can go further. + If not, the discussion is mute.
Who says so? You?
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Lars" wrote m… in limbo because they have not been baptized? LOL……Are you serious? Ha ha ha…… What about the millions of non-Christians? Are they all in limbo too? Religion makes people into zombies… + Lars – this could be a serious topic of discussion, if you let it. Serious? That a frozen embryo is considered a human life? Now is that
serious? How many men who masterbate? Is that killing also? + Are you a religious person at all? I am a spiritual person…. Do you believe in Jesus? I do not need organized religion……Catholicism is all about politics
and money nowadays……Jesus has nothing to do with it anymore…. I agree – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – + If so, we can go further. + If not, the discussion is mute. Who says so? You?
Response:
"Falcon" wrote That was basically the point I was/am trying to make to a stubborn (Grin) Scout Lady. Whether it is doctrine, dogma, teaching or whatever, it is perceived as a "truth and fact" for numerous Catholics.
+ Ahhh. OK. + You are right of course. + Many Catholics believe things that don’t even make sense. + They aren’t even sure what they believe or why they believe it. + Others have thought it all out and know what they believe. + I know I read things that peak my interest all the time. + Like Limbo going away. + It was a tough thing to envision in the first place. + It had no scripture base, but it did make sense to me… + Since I haven’t heard the term in years, I just wondered. So, you endorse false teaching to help those grieving? + Hmmmm. + What a question….. kinda like…. + So you endorse hiding the fact that your father beat your mum? She (Scout Lady) did not answer the question either. Kind of side stepped it with "I don’t consider it false teaching. It was not doctrine." So, apparently, in her view, if it is not "doctrine" it does not matter if it is true or a false belief no matter how many people believe it.
+ Then you actually asked the question in earnest? + If so, then you deserve an earnest answer. + The quick answer is "no." + I do endorse trying to help a grieving family. + I endorse telling them that God knows what is best. + I endorse telling them that "I’m sure that God has a special place for your child." + I endorse trying to lighten their burden. + I certainly tell them that God is the answer.
Response:
+ As I am saying now….. + It would be nice if some instruction took place during Mass each week – covering the sacraments, commandments, beatitudes, RCIA, etc.
I can understand the need for it but Mass is not the time for instruction, it’s a time for worship and praise. The proper place for things like that is the Parish Bulletin (which unfortunately most people chuck in the garbage every week) and proper religion discussion groups (we’re hoping to set one up in our parish this fall). We try to publish something in the bulletin each week to cover different areas that may be problematic for our parishioners — i.e. the great difference between Mass and a Liturgy of the Word with Communion which some people seem to feel are the same thing. Suzanne
Response:
"CeCe" wrote … – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I went to 12 years of catholic school in the States and I was not taught anything about doctrine. They do not teach this stuff. They also don’t make a point of telling you that what they teach may or may not be doctrine, as you pointed out is the case in Ireland. My experiences have not been much different. The only catechism we studied was the Baltimore Catechism and that is written for children only. We didn’t use it past the third grade (8 years old). It seems to me that the only catholics who are educated in this stuff are those who actively sought to learn about it. It is not offered in the schools, it is not offered during the homilies at mass, therefore a large percentage of us are very unaware.
+ I agree. I spent 12 years in Catholic grade and high school. We weren’t taught dogma. I don’t even recall any bible study. Baltimore Catechism certainly was a part of the memorization – especially the early years. I really wish there were more "instruction" in our weekly Mass. The sermon is sometimes interesting, mostly not. + Tonight at Mass, I feel I paid more attention to the heat and humidity, the twin red-headed boys in the seat in front of me, the baby in the back, the lady who always wears the blue dress, the family that brought up the "gifts," than the actual sermon. + Thank goodness we have the Nicene Creed to bring us back to what we believe, the Offertory, the Eucharist and His Precious Blood, and the simple words: "Just say the word, and my soul shall be healed!" + I do wish we had more instruction during Mass. + I sometimes wonder if people understand our Faith. + I know I certainly could learn more…..
Response:
"CeCe" wrote … It is still open, the church has not ruled on it one way or the other. They do not say it exists, but then they do not say it does not exist. You are free to choose on your own. Though I believe the current trend is to not believe. See, this is a good example of what I wrote in a previous post. I was taught as a child that Limbo existed. No one ever said that it wasn’t church doctrine. They just told us about it as if it were a fact, and we believed. That about sums up all of my catholic education. They told us stuff, we believed it, and it’s only now that I’m
+ As I am saying now….. + I spent several years overseas. + It is unbelievable some of the things you miss when you have no television for 3 or more years in a row. + For example, my kids didn’t know they needed "Jordache" jeans. + They weren’t aware of Reebok or Nikey shoes, teen magazines, "Kiss," Michael Jackson, Palmolive soap, or Kool cigarettes. + The Capital of China suddenly diappeared one time + It used to be Peking. Some new city took over: Beijiing….. + One of the most boring classes in high school was "Religion.’ + It sucked – year after year. The "Protestant Reformation" was one of the absolute worst classes….. + It would be nice if some instruction took place during Mass each week – covering the sacraments, commandments, beatitudes, RCIA, etc.
Response:
in limbo because they have not been baptized?
LOL……Are you serious? Ha ha ha…… What about the millions of non-Christians? Are they all in limbo too? Religion makes people into zombies…
Response:
"Falcon" wrote .. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "CeCe" wrote … in limbo because they have not been baptized? There is no such thing as Limbo anymore. They did away with it. + They did? + Tell me it aint so…… + Where was I when it went away? Since limbo never existed except in the false teachings of the Catholic church the Pope can arbitrarily remove it or bring it back anytime he so chooses. Limbo was never doctrine, so your claim of it being a false teaching is false in itself. How so? If Pbarker is lamenting the fact it is gone then seems to me it has been accepted by some, if not many.
+ Ouch. + Please don’t use me as one knowledgeable Catholic. + I have never claimed to know everything about my faith. + That is one main reason I came to this newsgroup in the 1st place. + I walked out of the church ( for spite) for nearly 10 years. + When I came back, I didn’t see much difference. + Limbo was taught to me 40 years ago concerning children and adults who never had the chance to know Jesus or be baptised — but led good lives — or died prior to a chance to even live a little. + I was told St Christopher was gone along with many other saints. + But, I didn’t hear that Limbo was not being taught any more. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was even taught about limbo when I was in the dark grasps of the Catholics. False doctrine? Perhaps, but then it seems that untruth is popular. It was a theological idea that became more popular after the Jansenists declared that any child who died without being baptized was going to burn in hell. I suspect the real truth is closer to being introduced by the pagans who have added many things to the Catholic church. Man-made tradition began creeping into church teachings around 324 A.D. when Emperor Constantine made Christianity the official religion. The pagans then got into the church to gain the rights of Christians and in doing so brought in much of their pagan tradition and rituals. The pagans did this because they found Christian worship too simple after practicing their own elaborate pagan ritualistic tradition. Before this happened there were no confessionals, statues, rosaries, votive candles, holy water, images, relics, medals, vestments, scapulars, signs of the cross, prayers for the dead, purgatory, limbo, prayers to Mary and the saints, novenas, popes, priests, nuns, celibacy of clergy, sacrifices of the mass, lent, etc. Also, there were not seven sacraments; just the only two in Holy Scripture: baptism and communion. In pastoral practice many priests used the concept to help upset parents deal with the lose of a child. So, you endorse false teaching to help those grieving?
+ Hmmmm. + What a question….. kinda like…. + So you endorse hiding the fact that your father beat your mum?
Response:
"Falcon" wrote .. Limbo was never doctrine, so your claim of it being a false teaching is false in itself. How so? If Pbarker is lamenting the fact it is gone then seems to me it has been accepted by some, if not many. + Ouch. + Please don’t use me as one knowledgeable Catholic. + I have never claimed to know everything about my faith. + That is one main reason I came to this newsgroup in the 1st place.
I did not mean this as an "ouch" for you, sorry if it came across to you that way. + I walked out of the church ( for spite) for nearly 10 years. + When I came back, I didn’t see much difference. + Limbo was taught to me 40 years ago concerning children and adults who never had the chance to know Jesus or be baptised — but led good lives — or died prior to a chance to even live a little. + I was told St Christopher was gone along with many other saints. + But, I didn’t hear that Limbo was not being taught any more.
That was basically the point I was/am trying to make to a stubborn (Grin) Scout Lady. Whether it is doctrine, dogma, teaching or whatever, it is perceived as a "truth and fact" for numerous Catholics. In pastoral practice many priests used the concept to help upset parents deal with the lose of a child. So, you endorse false teaching to help those grieving? + Hmmmm. + What a question….. kinda like…. + So you endorse hiding the fact that your father beat your mum?
She (Scout Lady) did not answer the question either. Kind of side stepped it with "I don’t consider it false teaching. It was not doctrine." So, apparently, in her view, if it is not "doctrine" it does not matter if it is true or a false belief no matter how many people believe it. Ciao, Falcon #### To reply via email remove "7" from address #### # Failure is not an option # # It comes bundled with the software #
Response:
"Lars" wrote m… in limbo because they have not been baptized? LOL……Are you serious? Ha ha ha…… What about the millions of non-Christians? Are they all in limbo too? Religion makes people into zombies…
+ Lars – this could be a serious topic of discussion, if you let it. + Are you a religious person at all? Do you believe in Jesus? + If so, we can go further. + If not, the discussion is mute.
Response:
No Falcon you don’t seem to understand. Catholics are still allowed to believe in this middle state. It is based on what is known as Abrahams bosom. The theology of the concept has evolved, it doesn’t mean it was a false teaching at all. It is not a matter of faith and morals, belief in this concept does not affect Salvation in the least.
I will reluctantly agree that in and of itself belief in limbo is not a threat to salvation. The threat of limbo, as I see it, is as another teaching that undermines the power of Christ. In reflection I could wrap up a huge bunch of Catholic teaching and doctrine into that same category – The power of Christ is insufficient. Is the god of the Catholic church so small and powerless that he is unable to handle children who die and has to tuck them into a special place? The Lord I worship is not bound by such inadequacies and certainly does not need to have His children, young or old, tucked away into a place, be it limbo or purgatory, to "finish" what was accomplished and completed on the cross. Have you been talking to Peter Terry? No. Nor the Pope. Just listening to the Holy Spirit. Me too. He tells me to help you see the light.
(Grin) At least you maintain some sense of humor at times. There is no doubt that some traditions, (note that is with a small t) are the result of pagan influences, the Church doesn’t deny it. They are not matters of faith and morals. But if they become teachings that beguile people are they not just as real no matter if they are "t"radition or not? No Falcon. These traditions of which you speak do not beguile people. It is your rejection of Catholicism that leads you to believe that they do. It doesn’t mean that it is.
It is not due to rejection of Catholicism, it is due to the convictions that I have within myself, convictions that compel me to proclaim the truth of God. Yes, you will insert the phrase "truth as you see it" into that, so be it. Before this happened there were no confessionals, statues, rosaries, votive candles, holy water, images, relics, medals, vestments, scapulars, signs of the cross, prayers for the dead, purgatory, limbo, prayers to Mary and the saints, novenas, popes, priests, nuns, celibacy of clergy, sacrifices of the mass, lent, etc. Also, there were not seven sacraments; just the only two in Holy Scripture: baptism and communion. Nope, don’t buy all of this. Of course you don’t, you would rather embrace what you want and deny what is not convenient. What an ignorant statement from one who choose the path of easy believism.
That is a new term for me, had not heard that one before. If I decode this term correctly you are saying that we Protestants have it easy since we just have to believe with faith and that’s all we need. Just isn’t that way. We too have the need for cleansing while on this earth. We too are bound by the commands of our Lord and we too strive to become acceptable before God. We too have works of faith. The fundamental difference, as it seems to be, is that our works of faith are to help us with repentance, cleansing of our sinful nature, glorifying God and being a living testimony to the power of Christ while the Catholics see works of faith as "earning" their righteousness and as working their way into heaven. Earning points, so to speak, to reduce purgatory time. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There were 7 Sacraments from the beginning. The way they were celibrated may have changed, but they were always there.Many of the things you mention were carried over from Judaism. I realize your Bible is missing a few books, it was easy for the Protestants to gnore whatever didn’t fit in. The Sacrifice, note, there is only one Sacrifice is the same Sacrifice that was made on Calvary. It is beyond time and space. Every Mass brings us to the foot of the Cross. In pastoral practice many priests used the concept to help upset parents deal with the lose of a child. So, you endorse false teaching to help those grieving? I don’t consider it false teaching. It was not doctrine. If limbo does not exist it is false no matter what label you put on it. No Falcon. You seem to think Limbo is your ticket to destroy Catholicism. I assure you it is not. Many theological theories have come and gone. I’m sure if I knew what school you follow I could point out the same to you.
No, I am not so naive as to think the concept of limbo is the downfall of the Catholic church. Limbo is just another part of the way Catholics have been taught to think. Just another of many ways that the falsehoods are allowed to remain as part of coming from the church and just one more way that the sufficiency of Christ is lowered. Tell me your flavor of Protestantism, and a little bit of time, and we’ll see how different concepts have been replaced with more sound theology. Or….are you one of those people who are afraid to tell what flavor they are? Tell you what Falcon. Write out an outline of your beliefs. We’ll take it from there. I do not understand your "flavor" term. Not being obtuse, just want to be on the same page. What church did you get saved in Falcon?
Actually I was saved at a kitchen table back in the late ’70s. Was it baptist, church of Christ, or was it one of those nondenominational flavors that follows the Protestant school of thought but decided the early reformers had it wrong to?
It was actually at the start of a bible study hosted by a group called The Navigators. So, technically, the answer is non-denominational. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I understand you need to point fingers at the Church you left. I have been there myself. It makes it easier to ignore the pit in the bottom of your stomach everytime you think about what you have done. The doubts. It never goes away Falcon. You either learn to live with it, or you sit down and find out the real truth about Catholicism. I say this with love. I would be willing to discuss anything at all with you, if you are willing to open your mind and heart. I do not wish to convert you, I only want to show you what you missed the first time around. I will and do say the same to you. As much as you might think me attacking the Catholics, it is not, it is trying to shine a light on the darkness out of caring and move, not hatred and judgement. If you wish to shine light, you will not continue to post fundie lies to this group. Your sacrifices of the Mass was a large sign showing that you did not understand Catholicism as a Catholic, as it is a fundie deception. One can not shine light if he himself is in darkness. Remember to remove the plank in your eye first. Tell me Falcon, what was your experience with Catholicism? How long were you a practicing Catholic before someone convinced you that you were in error? Don’t give me any crappola about the Holy Spirit telling you because that would be a lie. Someone from somewhere whispered in your ear and that person was from this world, not heaven.
In truth, no one whispered in my ear. The whole family was Catholic, it was just part of the culture and life I grew up in. I really cannot pin it down to an event or a sudden awakening or anything like that. It just "felt" wrong to me. I could never fully wrap myself around the rituals, the notion that God would require us to worship in such a "confined" manner prescribed by the church. There was no big "Moment of Decision" it was a slow drift away from something that was totally unfulfilling to me. Empty and hollow ritual that seemed more focused on doing the right movements, chanting the right words, doing the prescribed ceremonies while all the time wondering why the priest had to speak in latin and not let us know what he was saying during mass. A lot of little things like that just felt wrong to me. It all just seemed to have no substance and to be more form and function instead of God. I wandered spiritually for several years. No church, no nothing except a feeling inside that God is real and "out there" somewhere. Even dabbled on the fringes of the occult for a very short time until I got the "Hell" scared out of, so to speak. Other than attending a funeral or marriage type thing I never set foot in any church for many many years. Then, through a set of circumstances with my first wife, and somewhat reluctantly, I found myself at that kitchen table with three other men that developed into an intensive two year long bible study. Tell me the truth if you have the guts,
By the way, just so you know. I have never lied to you nor will I ever tell you a lie. I am not wired that way and have no need to lie to you about myself or my convictions. Don’t give me any crappola….Tell me the truth if you have the guts, if not, you are wasting my time.
A bit confrontational and defensive are you? When I get a little cranky I find it helps to remember I am not perfect and that I need to let my own thoughts go and listen to God. Galatians 5:22-23 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control;" Ciao, Falcon #### To reply via email remove "7" from address #### # Failure is not an option # # It comes bundled with the software #
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in limbo because they have not been baptized? There is no such thing as Limbo anymore. They did away with it. It is still open, the church has not ruled on it one way or the other. They do not say it exists, but then they do not say it does not exist. You are free to choose on your own. Though I believe the current trend is to not believe.
See, this is a good example of what I wrote in a previous post. I was taught as a child that Limbo existed. No one ever said that it wasn’t church doctrine. They just told us about it as if it were a fact, and we believed. That about sums up all of my catholic education. They told us stuff, we believed it, and it’s only now that I’m CeCe — I do not feel obligated to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forego their use. –Galileo Galilei
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh here we go. Another Catholic that has seen the light. I don’t deny that it was taught for many years. I deny that it was ever Catholic doctrine. You do understand the difference I hope. Sure there is a difference, no denying that. But it was taught nonetheless and many have believed and that is not to be denied. Just because it is not doctrine does not mean the teaching is any less false. You do understand, I hope. Having spent some time growing up in very Catholic Ireland, I know that many there would not have told the difference between something the priest taught and doctrine. Most accepted the words of a priest as almost infallible. If a priest said it then it had to be believed. Know I know many Catholics these days are more educated in their faith, but I still wonder how many things catholics take as doctrine which actually are not.
Probably way more than you think. I went to 12 years of catholic school in the States and I was not taught anything about doctrine. They do not teach this stuff. They also don’t make a point of telling you that what they teach may or may not be doctrine, as you pointed out is the case in Ireland. My experiences have not been much different. The only catechism we studied was the Baltimore Catechism and that is written for children only. We didn’t use it past the third grade (8 years old). It seems to me that the only catholics who are educated in this stuff are those who actively sought to learn about it. It is not offered in the schools, it is not offered during the homilies at mass, therefore a large percentage of us are very unaware. CeCe — I do not feel obligated to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forego their use. –Galileo Galilei
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in limbo because they have not been baptized? There is no such thing as Limbo anymore. They did away with it.
It is still open, the church has not ruled on it one way or the other. They do not say it exists, but then they do not say it does not exist. You are free to choose on your own. Though I believe the current trend is to not believe. — Alan Ferris eligo, ergo sum Atheist #1211 EAC(UK)#252 Ironic Torture Div. When the only colour is black – the only sound the broken bell THEN talk to me about why. Spike Milligan www.arcerland.com ICQ UIN: 12811297
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Oh here we go. Another Catholic that has seen the light. I don’t deny that it was taught for many years. I deny that it was ever Catholic doctrine. You do understand the difference I hope. Sure there is a difference, no denying that. But it was taught nonetheless and many have believed and that is not to be denied. Just because it is not doctrine does not mean the teaching is any less false. You do understand, I hope.
Having spent some time growing up in very Catholic Ireland, I know that many there would not have told the difference between something the priest taught and doctrine. Most accepted the words of a priest as almost infallible. If a priest said it then it had to be believed. Know I know many Catholics these days are more educated in their faith, but I still wonder how many things catholics take as doctrine which actually are not. — Alan Ferris eligo, ergo sum Atheist #1211 EAC(UK)#252 Ironic Torture Div. When the only colour is black – the only sound the broken bell THEN talk to me about why. Spike Milligan www.arcerland.com ICQ UIN: 12811297
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in limbo because they have not been baptized?
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in limbo because they have not been baptized?
There is no such thing as Limbo anymore. They did away with it. CeCe — I do not feel obligated to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forego their use. –Galileo Galilei
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"CeCe" wrote … in limbo because they have not been baptized? There is no such thing as Limbo anymore. They did away with it.
+ They did? + Tell me it aint so…… + Where was I when it went away?
no comment untill now