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Question:

Ishtar, please accept my apologies for this misunderstanding. All of my comments were based upon unclear references to the above. It got worse as suppositions built on false premises and I am sorry. No hard feelings – shake? -nonagon09

*shake* Next time I will try to be more clear, and maybe we can avoid the situation, ok? Ishtar

Response:

Last week I applied for a class that teaches a person to use thier natural energies to heal, on the phone the interviewer asked me what my religion was I hestitated, being in the broom closet I didnt immediatly respond, she quickly asked "You arent wiccan are you!?", after the initial sense of out rage I responded "Yes I am! Is that a problem?" My interview was quickly terminated and I later received another phone call telling me not to send in my initial deposit for the class. Yesterday I received a package in the mail from my good Catholic mother in law, it was a statue of St.Joseph there was a note that stated "Bury this upside down facing the house and say a prayer, believe in your prayer, and your house will sell". From what I was told these statues sell in Catholic stores including the prayer and instructions. Interesting I wonder if I should add this to my BOS????

Response:

Hmmm…hope this incident didn’t happen in a college or university. Mike

Response:

Um….. exactly what is your question? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last week I applied for a class that teaches a person to use thier natural energies to heal, on the phone the interviewer asked me what my religion was I hestitated, being in the broom closet I didnt immediatly respond, she quickly asked "You arent wiccan are you!?", after the initial sense of out rage I responded "Yes I am! Is that a problem?" My interview was quickly terminated and I later received another phone call telling me not to send in my initial deposit for the class. Yesterday I received a package in the mail from my good Catholic mother in law, it was a statue of St.Joseph there was a note that stated "Bury this upside down facing the house and say a prayer, believe in your prayer, and your house will sell". From what I was told these statues sell in Catholic stores including the prayer and instructions. Interesting I wonder if I should add this to my BOS????

Response:

I am with Mike in the states that is illegal at a college or university. As for the Catholic rituals, yes. If you look at all Christian religions, you will find the root of most of their rituals and beliefs go back to if not wicca then paganism… Sparrow HTTP://www2.itexas.net/~sparrow – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last week I applied for a class that teaches a person to use thier natural energies to heal, on the phone the interviewer asked me what my religion was I hestitated, being in the broom closet I didnt immediatly respond, she quickly asked "You arent wiccan are you!?", after the initial sense of out rage I responded "Yes I am! Is that a problem?" My interview was quickly terminated and I later received another phone call telling me not to send in my initial deposit for the class. Yesterday I received a package in the mail from my good Catholic mother in law, it was a statue of St.Joseph there was a note that stated "Bury this upside down facing the house and say a prayer, believe in your prayer, and your house will sell". From what I was told these statues sell in Catholic stores including the prayer and instructions. Interesting I wonder if I should add this to my BOS???? Hmmm…hope this incident didn’t happen in a college or university. Mike

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If that is her only question, then why tell us the first part? The *first part* is Holiday asking "what was the question?"of the original poster. It was selected as her relevant query. I was refering to first part of Calla’s, the original poster, post: Last week I applied for a class that teaches a person to use thier natural energies to heal, on the phone the interviewer asked me what my religion was I hestitated, being in the broom closet I didnt immediatly respond, she quickly asked "You arent wiccan are you!?", after the initial sense of out rage I responded "Yes I am! Is that a problem?" My interview was quickly terminated and I later received another phone call telling me not to send in my initial deposit for the class. What does this have to do with the question that she asked a moment later on a Saint statue? It seems to have nothing to do with the second. The *second* was the original poster’s text whichincluded the question SHE had, (this, in direct reply to Holiday). In other words, you were not paying attention to what I was referring to. .. see above. Did you have a question about the healing class, or was it just a rant? This is a *loaded* question. I have no inquiries at thistime regarding a healing class. This was not a *rant*. On rereading this, I can see that here I was not clear: I was talking to Calla, the original poster, not to you. When I am ranting, I will advise you of this. Unless I choose not to. I find your assumptions to be, like most, illogical and your allusions intended to be vaguely hostile. I was not speaking about you at this point, but nothing I said was hostile. It is interesting that you perceived it as such. Please refrain from pissing me off. You wouldn’t like me when I’m angry. Who are you: the Incredible Hulk, or RBB? Since I was not speaking about you, it seems "illogical" that you would threaten me based on this, simply because you thought I thought you were ranting? Doesn’t everyone rant at some point or another? If you are pissed off, it is no doing of mine. Ishtar

Response:

If that is her only question, then why tell us the first part? The *first part* is Holiday asking "what was the question?"of the original poster. It was selected as her relevant query. I was refering to first part of Calla’s, the original poster, post.

I see. This was not clearly referenced. Got it now. <healing class-snipped What does this have to do with the question that she asked a moment later on a Saint statue?

Virtually nothing. Calla merely lumped it all together.But, my reply was to Holiday’s question. It seems to have nothing to do with the second.

Agreed. In other words, you were not paying attention to what I was referring to. .. see above.

Oh, I was paying attention alright, your reference was not clear.I misundertood your replies. For this, accept my appologies. "What we have here is a failure to communicate …" Did you have a question about the healing class, or was it just a rant? This is a *loaded* question. I have no inquiries at this time regarding a healing class. This was not a *rant*. On rereading this, I can see that here I was not clear: I was talking to Calla, the original poster, not to you.

Yes, clearly this is what occurred. Sorry about that. I was not speaking about you at this point, but nothing I said was hostile. It is interesting that you perceived it as such.

Obviously my response was based on an invalid premiseand I am guilty of not heeding my own advise. Anything which followed my assumptions is, of course, in error. Please refrain from pissing me off. You wouldn’t like me when I’m angry. Who are you: the Incredible Hulk, or RBB?

Ah, this time I will assume the above to be a humorously-phrased *slight*. Okay, I deserved it. I am most definately not an RBB. Btw, my comments leading to this were also intended to be *witty*, (again – based on a false premise). Since I was not speaking about you, it seems "illogical" that you would threaten me based on this, simply because you thought I thought you were ranting?

Well, I didn’t threaten you outright. You assumed this wasimplied. Since the entire thing was a misunderstanding from the beginning, let’s start a kindler, gentler banter, eh? Doesn’t everyone rant at some point or another? If you are pissed off, it is no doing of mine.

Yep. Everyone rants. I rant. You rant. She rants …I’m not *pissed* as yet, "I feel happy …". Ishtar

Again, sorry Istar – shake? -nonagon09

Response:

If that is her only question, then why tell us the first part? The *first part* is Holiday asking "what was the question?"of the original poster. It was selected as her relevant query.

I was refering to first part of Calla’s, the original poster, post: Last week I applied for a class that teaches a person to use thier natural energies to heal, on the phone the interviewer asked me what my religion was I hestitated, being in the broom closet I didnt immediatly respond, she quickly asked "You arent wiccan are you!?", after the initial sense of out rage I responded "Yes I am! Is that a problem?" My interview was quickly terminated and I later received another phone call telling me not to send in my initial deposit for the class.

What does this have to do with the question that she asked a moment later on a Saint statue? It seems to have nothing to do with the second. The *second* was the original poster’s text whichincluded the question SHE had, (this, in direct reply to Holiday).

In other words, you were not paying attention to what I was referring to. .. see above. Did you have a question about the healing class, or was it just a rant? This is a *loaded* question. I have no inquiries at thistime regarding a healing class. This was not a *rant*.

On rereading this, I can see that here I was not clear: I was talking to Calla, the original poster, not to you. When I am ranting, I will advise you of this. Unless I choose not to. I find your assumptions to be, like most, illogical and your allusions intended to be vaguely hostile.

I was not speaking about you at this point, but nothing I said was hostile. It is interesting that you perceived it as such. Please refrain from pissing me off. You wouldn’t like me when I’m angry.

Who are you: the Incredible Hulk, or RBB? Since I was not speaking about you, it seems "illogical" that you would threaten me based on this, simply because you thought I thought you were ranting? Doesn’t everyone rant at some point or another? If you are pissed off, it is no doing of mine. Ishtar

Response:

He’s the patron saint of FAMILIES, as well as carpenters and workers… You’re right, it’s odd. Really odd. I DON’T like the burying, but burying upside down…. um, shiver…? — janet Time bears away all things, even the mind…. Virgil

Response:

I’d heard of it a long time ago but have no idea where it came from either. Could it come from some magickal tradition that uses the Catholic saints as part of their pantheon?

Could be, I should think there are those around, (I’m pretty sure there are, but don’t know enough to say). However, I have to say that most of the people who have asked on the catholic ngs have claimed to be regular ordinary catholics. The answer they usually get is: 1.Is it that time of month ALREADY? 2. Forget the statue, clean the house, get a good estate agent, and roast a coffee bean just before prospective buyers come. Upside down bothers me too. Maybe it started as a practical joke.

You mean someone suggested it as a joke and someone else took them seriously? Wry grin…could well have happened! :} — janet Time bears away all things, even the mind…. Virgil

Response:

I wish I could come up with a citation for this, but I can’t, so I’ll just chime in with what I’ve heard. The custom of burying St. Joseph statues upside down to get your house to sell is a bit of Catholic folk magic. It’s probably Italian-American (most likely even Sicilian- American) in origin. In essence, the analysis I read of this, is that you regard your statue of St. Joseph as your house "lar", as they were called in ancient Rome. Lares and penates were household gods to who the safety and security of the house and family were entrusted. You entrust the sale of your house to the lar, and if it does not take place, you punish the lar by burying it. Apparently, when the spirit of your lar comes in contact with the earth spirits, this provides the impetus to make the lar do your will. (St. Joseph picked up a LOT of pre-Christian baggage, BTW. His festivals tend to have a lot of pagan survivals visible.) So, if you are really looking at this as a Catholic symbol, well, yes, it’s disrespectful, but a disrespect that’s common within Catholics who use folk magic. In a way, you can look at it as a survival of pre-Christian religion. We ought to be able to come up with a way to put a pagan spin on it–first get your own lar, rather than using St. Joe? Kiwi Carlisle – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Burying it is odd enough, but *upside down*? Am I alone in being uncomfortable with that?? janet No. Marion Weinstein in her book Positive Magic includes certain practices that you should not allow yourself to be encouraged or demanded to take part in. One of those is to not desecrate or debase or show disrespect for the religious symbols of any religion, including that of your former religious affiliation. Burying the statue is not a problem with me if it is respectfully done to tap into the powers of the element of earth. But to bury it upside down does feel like debasing or in some way trying to reverse the symbol to me in some way.

Response:

it seems very strange, almost voodu, I cant imagine how it came about, I would have thought burying the statue of a saint upside down would be some sort of blasphemy….or at least an insult to the saint whoever he was, just what is he the saint of Janet. I cant imagine a saint of Estate agents or of people who want to move houses ? — He’s the patron saint of FAMILIES, as well as carpenters and workers… You’re right, it’s odd. Really odd. I DON’T like the burying, but burying upside down…. um, shiver…?

Families… I cant see how burying him upside down would help you move, more likely put him in a snit, (grin ) its realy wierd, — The ‘Old Craft’ lady http://www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/shez/

Response:

About using the statue or image of St. Joseph, That way of proceeding with statues or images of saints or gods, has been going on since, at least the 16th century. There are sculptures of indian goddesses, brought to europe as christian saints, with a hand , a arm or a head that can be pulled out until they perform some task.

Response:

Ah, somebody else who does some research…. <BG I was trying to tighten on a single statue and a singular situation to find commonalties to the modern practice. I agree, that does lead to a narrowed view. Terry

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Um….. exactly what is your question? "Bury this upside down facing the house and say a prayer, believe in your prayer, and your house will sell". Interesting I wonder if I should add this to my BOS???? Does that clear it up for you, Holiday? -nonagon09

If that is her only question, then why tell us the first part? It seems to have nothing to do with the second. Did you have a question about the healing class, or was it just a rant? Ishtar

Response:

Did you have a question about the healing class, or was it just a rant?

I thought it was a rant. Holiday

Response:

The *first part* is Holiday asking "what was the question?"of the original poster. It was selected as her relevant query. It seems to have nothing to do with the second.

The *second* was the original poster’s text whichincluded the question SHE had, (this, in direct reply to Holiday). Did you have a question about the healing class, or was it just a rant?

This is a *loaded* question. I have no inquiries at thistime regarding a healing class. This was not a *rant*. When I am ranting, I will advise you of this. Unless I choose not to. I find your assumptions to be, like most, illogical and your allusions intended to be vaguely hostile. Please refrain from pissing me off. You wouldn’t like me when I’m angry. -nonagon09 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ishtar

Response:

Snip even!). That practice seems to have come from nowhere and spread like wildfire! ??

The hypothesis below is a synopsis and deduction from the reading of much longer articles. Maybe it is an evolutionary process from the period of drought in Italy during 1893. The statue of St. Joseph was taken to a withered garden, dumped, unceremoniously, onto the ground, headfirst. Then the statue was ceremoniously told it would stay there until it rained. Cites: "The Golden Bough" & "Religions and Their Eccentricities" Terry

Response:

Burying it is odd enough, but *upside down*? Am I alone in being uncomfortable with that?? janet

No. Marion Weinstein in her book Positive Magic includes certain practices that you should not allow yourself to be encouraged or demanded to take part in. One of those is to not desecrate or debase or show disrespect for the religious symbols of any religion, including that of your former religious affiliation. Burying the statue is not a problem with me if it is respectfully done to tap into the powers of the element of earth. But to bury it upside down does feel like debasing or in some way trying to reverse the symbol to me in some way.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In article Calla [] Yesterday I received a package in the mail from my good Catholic mother in law, it was a statue of St.Joseph there was a note that stated "Bury this upside down facing the house and say a prayer, believe in your prayer, and your house will sell". From what I was told these statues sell in Catholic stores including the prayer and instructions. Interesting I wonder if I should add this to my BOS???? even!). That practice seems to have come from nowhere and spread like wildfire! ?? We get about two questions a month on it, in the catholic ngs. Needless to say, it has no basis in catholic theology. But it’s…. weird. Burying it is odd enough, but *upside down*? Am I alone in being uncomfortable with that??

I’d heard of it a long time ago but have no idea where it came from either. Could it come from some magickal tradition that uses the Catholic saints as part of their pantheon? Upside down bothers me too. Maybe it started as a practical joke. Loki

Response:

[] Yesterday I received a package in the mail from my good Catholic mother in law, it was a statue of St.Joseph there was a note that stated "Bury this upside down facing the house and say a prayer, believe in your prayer, and your house will sell". From what I was told these statues sell in Catholic stores including the prayer and instructions. Interesting I wonder if I should add this to my BOS????

even!). That practice seems to have come from nowhere and spread like wildfire! ?? We get about two questions a month on it, in the catholic ngs. Needless to say, it has no basis in catholic theology. But it’s…. weird. Burying it is odd enough, but *upside down*? Am I alone in being uncomfortable with that?? — janet Time bears away all things, even the mind…. Virgil

Response:

But it’s…. weird. Burying it is odd enough, but *upside down*? Am I alone in being uncomfortable with that?? — janet Time bears away all things, even the mind…. Virgil

No, you’re not. Anything that disrespects any aspect of the Sacred bothers me too. I sure wouldn’t do it. Many Blessings, Tegan :)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [] Yesterday I received a package in the mail from my good Catholic mother in law, it was a statue of St.Joseph there was a note that stated "Bury this upside down facing the house and say a prayer, believe in your prayer, and your house will sell". From what I was told these statues sell in Catholic stores including the prayer and instructions. Interesting I wonder if I should add this to my BOS???? even!). That practice seems to have come from nowhere and spread like wildfire! ?? We get about two questions a month on it, in the catholic ngs. Needless to say, it has no basis in catholic theology. But it’s…. weird. Burying it is odd enough, but *upside down*? Am I alone in being uncomfortable with that??

it seems very strange, almost voodu, I cant imagine how it came about, I would have thought burying the statue of a saint upside down would be some sort of blasphemy….or at least an insult to the saint whoever he was, just what is he the saint of Janet. I cant imagine a saint of Estate agents or of people who want to move houses ? — The ‘Old Craft’ lady http://www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/shez/

Response:

Um….. exactly what is your question? "Bury this upside down facing the house and say a prayer, believe in your prayer, and your house will sell". Interesting I wonder if I should add this to my BOS????

Does that clear it up for you, Holiday? -nonagon09

Response:

Sure, why not? If it works, use it! Unless of course it bothers you use Christian mythology. A teacher of mine from a couple of years ago suggested that same spell to one of her students. None of us are christian. As a side note, I do find all this quite amusing. The various churches have been condeming witchcraft for centuries & here is the catholic church selling spells! I love it! There may be help for them after all. Phoenix

Response:

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