Question:

                                                              JMJ The cross represented the Jesuit Missionaries that founded Los Angeles.   It is not meant to symbolize the religious beliefs of the people contributing to the county since then.

Correction it was the Franciscans who founded Los Angeles City its named after the Los Angeles river which in turn is named after a Franciscan Church in Assisi Italy and I quote from University of California Website. See below: quote One of the original counties, named after the city which, in turn, had been named after the river. The Portola expedition camped on the bank of the river on August 2, 1769, and named it in honor of Nuestra Snora de los Angeles de Porciuncula, whose feast day they had celebrated the proceeding day. The Portiuncula chapel the cradle of the Franciscan Order, is in the basilica of "Our Lady of the Angels" near Assisi, Italy. The name was not preserved through the river, but through the name of the pueblo, the projected establishment of which is mentioned on December 27, 1779: la ereccion de un pueblo con el titulo de Reina de los Angeles sobre el rio de la porciuncula, "the founding of a town with the name Queen of the Angels on the river of the Portiuncula." On August 26, 1781, Governor Neve issued the final instruction for the founding of the town, which took place on September 4, 1781. Although the place was not named for the Angels, but for the Virgin, the most common designation of the future metropolis seems to have been Pueblo de Los Angeles. The present abbreviated form was definitely established when the county was organized, February 18, 1850, and the city California Counties." California Blue Book. 1958 ed. Sacramento: State Printing Office. 653-661.) unquote 2001, 2002, 2003 The Regents of the University of California http://countingcalifornia.cdlib.org/counties/losangeles.html The original settlers(for LA) came from San Gabriel Mission founded which was founded and run by the Franciscans at the time Jim Carew sfo(Secular Franciscan Order)

Response:

                                                         JMJ The cross represented the Jesuit Missionaries that founded Los Angeles.   It is not meant to symbolize the religious beliefs of the people contributing to the county since then. Correction it was the Franciscans who founded Los Angeles City its named after the Los Angeles river which in turn is named after a Franciscan Church in Assisi Italy and I quote from University of California Website. See below: snip< 2001, 2002, 2003 The Regents of the University of California http://countingcalifornia.cdlib.org/counties/losangeles.html The original settlers(for LA) came from San Gabriel Mission which was founded and run by the Franciscans at the time

For a little more Franciscan history of Los Angeles City check this out: History of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles Website See: http://www.la-archdiocese.org/english/history.html Jim Carew sfo

Response:

L. A.’s phenomenal growth was also due to the efforts of many Jews. How about adding a Star of David to the official seal?  Since some So Cal native American tribes carved phallic religious totems, It would seem to be appropriate to put an erect penis on the seal as well. And whilst we’re at it change the name of the city to Los Winged End of Season Figures.

**  I doubt that one would fly. —

Question:

This is a really cool thing, but because of the high visability, the naysayers will line up to take shots, even though they having doing the same kind of thing (doing research funded by companies with a profit motive) for years. Still, if good, sound research is done and revealed, it will benefit more than just Atkins Nutritionals, there are a host of other companies interested in cashing in on LC, not to mention those interested in health and weight loss/control.

:: http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/06/23/atkins_charity_… :: :: Atkins charity to bankroll diet research :: :: By Raja Mishra, Globe Staff  |  June 23, 2004 :: :: A charity founded by the late diet doctor Robert C. Atkins stands to :: inherit his vast fortune and plans to bankroll a barrage of studies

Response:

It is good to see some research, but I think Dr. Atkins name is not what it once was, due to the corporation producing so many garbage products.  When I read his book he mentions organic foods and more whole food choices.  I personally feel that this was his intention.  Now Dr. Atkins name is more geared towards all these artificial products the Atkins company makes for shame this happened, but the man died and it seems to me all hell broke lose.  I never tell people I am on Atkins due to this.  I just tell them I am watching my carb intake.  I really think the way the Atkins name was not a good service to him.  I don’t think he would really approve.  Maybe I am wrong, but this is just how I feel. Thanks for the story, Curt

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a really cool thing, but because of the high visability, the naysayers will line up to take shots, even though they having doing the same kind of thing (doing research funded by companies with a profit motive) for years. Putting most of his inheritance into a nonprofit designed to support his diet views, speaks well of Dr Atkins. Still, if good, sound research is done and revealed, it will benefit more than just Atkins Nutritionals, there are a host of other companies interested in cashing in on LC, not to mention those interested in health and weight loss/control. There are incredible billions of dollars spent on research and advertising to promote junk food and such, and hopefully money spent by atkins foundation will help counteract that to some extent. Obviously, research done on grants from "interested parties" should be viewed with greater skepticism. i

Response:

::: It is good to see some research, but I think Dr. Atkins name is not ::: what it once was, due to the corporation producing so many garbage ::: products.  When I read his book he mentions organic foods and more ::: whole food choices.  I personally feel that this was his intention. ::: Now Dr. Atkins name is more geared towards all these artificial ::: it look like Jenny Craig or something.  It is a shame this ::: happened, but the man died and it seems to me all hell broke lose. ::: I never tell people I am on Atkins due to this.  I just tell them I ::: am watching my carb intake.  I really think the way the Atkins name ::: was not a good service to him.  I don’t think he would really ::: approve.  Maybe I am wrong, but this is just how I feel. :: :: I feel the same, with all those fake fraudulent ow carb foods that :: they are promoting, they are giving low carbing a bad name and :: derailing dieting efforts of stupid people (smart people know :: better). Ignorant people.  Many smart people are ignorant of these issues.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a really cool thing, but because of the high visability, the naysayers will line up to take shots, even though they having doing the same kind of thing (doing research funded by companies with a profit motive) for years. Still, if good, sound research is done and revealed, it will benefit more than just Atkins Nutritionals, there are a host of other companies interested in cashing in on LC, not to mention those interested in health and weight loss/control. ::  http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/06/23/atkins_charity_… :: :: Atkins charity to bankroll diet research :: :: By Raja Mishra, Globe Staff  |  June 23, 2004 :: :: A charity founded by the late diet doctor Robert C. Atkins stands to :: inherit his vast fortune and plans to bankroll a barrage of studies

Kinda reminds me of the Christian religion. Follow the words of Christ and you can’t go wrong. Follow the people who try to sell you the religion today and watch your wallet. That is what happens when one mans wisdom is perverted and used for many peoples profit. Greed is not good. TC

Response:

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/06/23/atkins_charity_… Atkins charity to bankroll diet research By Raja Mishra, Globe Staff  |  June 23, 2004 A charity founded by the late diet doctor Robert C. Atkins stands to inherit his vast fortune and plans to bankroll a barrage of studies championing his popular low-carbohydrate diet, positioning it to dominate diet research at a time when an unprecedented number of Americans are seeking weight-loss guidance.

A bad move from the point of view of their self interest.  The credibility of such studies will forever be questioned since they will be financed by the Atkins Foundation. Steve

Response:

::: http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/06/23/atkins_charity_… ::: ::: Atkins charity to bankroll diet research ::: ::: By Raja Mishra, Globe Staff  |  June 23, 2004 ::: ::: A charity founded by the late diet doctor Robert C. Atkins stands to ::: inherit his vast fortune and plans to bankroll a barrage of studies ::: championing his popular low-carbohydrate diet, positioning it to ::: dominate diet research at a time when an unprecedented number of ::: Americans are seeking weight-loss guidance. :: :: A bad move from the point of view of their self interest.  The :: credibility of such studies will forever be questioned since they :: will :: be financed by the Atkins Foundation. ….as will the credibility of all the researchers funded by the foundation.

Response:

A bad move from the point of view of their self interest.  The credibility of such studies will forever be questioned since they will be financed by the Atkins Foundation. Steve thousands of nutrition studies are financed by commercial interests even now, this would be nothing new.

…and many of the obviously self serving situations result in reduced credibility……as you said, nothing new. I imagine the credibility loss/controversy will be even more pronounced with an organization as visible as the Atkins Foundation, and as visibly self interestested in the results of such studies they as they will be funding. Steve

Response:

| | I feel the same, with all those fake fraudulent ow carb foods that | they are promoting, they are giving low carbing a bad name and | derailing dieting efforts of stupid people (smart people know better). When you use slanderous words like "fake" and "faudulent.",  you really should at least present facts to back them up.  Obviously you cannot, because your statement has no foundation. When 20-20 did an "expos

Question:

This is a really cool thing, but because of the high visability, the naysayers will line up to take shots, even though they having doing the same kind of thing (doing research funded by companies with a profit motive) for years. Still, if good, sound research is done and revealed, it will benefit more than just Atkins Nutritionals, there are a host of other companies interested in cashing in on LC, not to mention those interested in health and weight loss/control.

:: http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/06/23/atkins_charity_… :: :: Atkins charity to bankroll diet research :: :: By Raja Mishra, Globe Staff  |  June 23, 2004 :: :: A charity founded by the late diet doctor Robert C. Atkins stands to :: inherit his vast fortune and plans to bankroll a barrage of studies

Response:

::: http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/06/23/atkins_charity_… ::: ::: Atkins charity to bankroll diet research ::: ::: By Raja Mishra, Globe Staff  |  June 23, 2004 ::: ::: A charity founded by the late diet doctor Robert C. Atkins stands to ::: inherit his vast fortune and plans to bankroll a barrage of studies ::: championing his popular low-carbohydrate diet, positioning it to ::: dominate diet research at a time when an unprecedented number of ::: Americans are seeking weight-loss guidance. :: :: A bad move from the point of view of their self interest.  The :: credibility of such studies will forever be questioned since they :: will :: be financed by the Atkins Foundation. ….as will the credibility of all the researchers funded by the foundation.

Response:

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/06/23/atkins_charity_… Atkins charity to bankroll diet research By Raja Mishra, Globe Staff  |  June 23, 2004 A charity founded by the late diet doctor Robert C. Atkins stands to inherit his vast fortune and plans to bankroll a barrage of studies championing his popular low-carbohydrate diet, positioning it to dominate diet research at a time when an unprecedented number of Americans are seeking weight-loss guidance.

A bad move from the point of view of their self interest.  The credibility of such studies will forever be questioned since they will be financed by the Atkins Foundation. Steve

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a really cool thing, but because of the high visability, the naysayers will line up to take shots, even though they having doing the same kind of thing (doing research funded by companies with a profit motive) for years. Still, if good, sound research is done and revealed, it will benefit more than just Atkins Nutritionals, there are a host of other companies interested in cashing in on LC, not to mention those interested in health and weight loss/control. ::  http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/06/23/atkins_charity_… :: :: Atkins charity to bankroll diet research :: :: By Raja Mishra, Globe Staff  |  June 23, 2004 :: :: A charity founded by the late diet doctor Robert C. Atkins stands to :: inherit his vast fortune and plans to bankroll a barrage of studies

Kinda reminds me of the Christian religion. Follow the words of Christ and you can’t go wrong. Follow the people who try to sell you the religion today and watch your wallet. That is what happens when one mans wisdom is perverted and used for many peoples profit. Greed is not good. TC

Response:

A bad move from the point of view of their self interest.  The credibility of such studies will forever be questioned since they will be financed by the Atkins Foundation. Steve thousands of nutrition studies are financed by commercial interests even now, this would be nothing new.

…and many of the obviously self serving situations result in reduced credibility……as you said, nothing new. I imagine the credibility loss/controversy will be even more pronounced with an organization as visible as the Atkins Foundation, and as visibly self interestested in the results of such studies they as they will be funding. Steve

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A bad move from the point of view of their self interest.  The credibility of such studies will forever be questioned since they will be financed by the Atkins Foundation. Steve thousands of nutrition studies are financed by commercial interests even now, this would be nothing new. …and many of the obviously self serving situations result in reduced credibility……as you said, nothing new. I imagine the credibility loss/controversy will be even more pronounced with an organization as visible as the Atkins Foundation, and as visibly self interestested in the results of such studies they as they will be funding. Steve

So, Steve, how many studies have you funded?  Do you think money grows on trees?  How is this any different than, say, a drug manufacturer funding test studies on a new drug?  As long as the studies are done by credible institutions, as for example the Duke University study, we should be welcoming them. Marengo is absolutely right.  Some people just want to heap baseless accusations on the Atkins name and company for producing LC products that many of us like and choose to buy.  Dr. Atkins was always open to LC products that made life easier.  How about artificial sweetners, should we all stop using them too, because they are not natural or somehow fit you idea of a good product?  And how is that different than an Atkins product like ketchup, salad dressing, or pancakes?  Is Unilever now bad too, because they are producing similar products? If you don’t want to use them, don’t buy them.  Leave the rest of us free to choose.  Over the last couple of years, I’ve seen all kinds of hot shot geniuses here that know what’s right for everyone else, with their superior attitudes.   Funny, most of them are long gone and probably back up to 300lbs by now.

Response:

| | I feel the same, with all those fake fraudulent ow carb foods that | they are promoting, they are giving low carbing a bad name and | derailing dieting efforts of stupid people (smart people know better). When you use slanderous words like "fake" and "faudulent.",  you really should at least present facts to back them up.  Obviously you cannot, because your statement has no foundation. When 20-20 did an "expos

Question:

I love nothing more than to act silly.  People at work are always stunned when I tell them how old I am.  They think I’m at least 10 – 15 years younger.   (snip) >My brother and I like to be really silly, and one time recently he >was down by his car and I was up in my picture window (on the second floor) >and we spontaneously started singing the YMCA song–my kids thought we were >weird and we started waving to the cars driving by.  But sometimes it is >just fun to be silly–and some people don’t appreciate that. >cogge

pollyanna

Response:

>I >didn’t mean to sound condescending to you.  It’s just that the big pharma >industry is a *very* touchy subject with me–obviously.  When I get angry, I >nearly always turn that anger inward, hence yesterday’s

Diana, did you have some big trouble with meds?   (See, another dumb question I’ll bet) polly

Response:

>"Wmaebe1" <wmae…@aol.comnojunk> wrote >> It was me who started this whole thing in the first place… >damned right it’s *all* your fault!  LOL

———————————————– Hey, I don’t remember asking for your opinion ………………. wait, no one does, do they?  lol pollyanna

Response:

>From: wmae…@aol.comnojunk  (Wmaebe1) >Date: 6/25/2004 9:11 PM Eastern Standard Time >Diana, did you have some big trouble with meds?   (See, another dumb question >I’ll bet)

It’s not a dumb question because I haven’t really talked about the background which led me to my conclusions.  Personal trouble–no.  In fact I have resisted pressures from 4 or 5 different doctors (not all of them in the mental health field) to even begin a chemical straitjacket regimen.  Took my shrink 7 years to convince me to try BuSpar, which is very mild, not heavily advertised–and not very effective according to many docs spoonfed the endless virtues of the SSRIs by their manufacturers.  So far I cannot efen tell if it’s "working" per se. But two of my siblings *have* had big-time problems with many types of SSRIs and SSRI cousins.  But my own problems with drugs pre-date any of that.  My issues are philosophical, pure and simple.  Well…not simple.  It’s very deep and complicated actually, and it’s sort of private and I don’t really bring it up much here. Sorry, but I’ve said too much already.  (:-/ Diana (of the Moon) "I am afraid we are not rid of God because we still have faith in grammar." –Friedrich Nietzsche

Response:

, and some > of us appear too comfortable with the status-quo and are resistant to any > new blood.

I suppose if someone came in here who was a devout Catholic or even worse <gasp> a protestant, and made a comment right off about christian religion being an integral part of coping with mental illness–you mean to say that you would consider such a person to be welcome in here and you would not try to "run them off" with your satanic quotes and "blindlight" accusations? cogge

Response:

I guess I should apologize.  It was me who started this whole thing in the first place.  I only thought it funny because it reminded me of myself.  I think it’s good to be able to laugh at yourself because it hurts less than having someone else laugh first.  I’m truly sorry for causing such chaos in the group.  If nothing else, it got some action going in the group.  Much more interesting than "Mary had a little lamb", right cogge? Polly – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -><nakedlightb…@aol.comehither> wrote >> You couldn’t have thought it funny for any other reason… >i don’t feel the need to rationalize every flippin thought or mood that >crosses my awareness.  i thought it was funny.  period.  it had nothing to >do with misogyny or meds.  it resonated with me for the simple reason that i >know the feeling.  "don’t piss me off."  "don’t tread on me."  if you do, >you’re gonna get a reaction you’ve probably never experienced before. >that’s where i found the humor.  understood? >i’m sick of this group.  we get all kinds of trolls breezing through here >and certain individuals are prepared to welcome them with open arms.  when >an obviously sincere person begins to tepidly test the waters, she gets >blasted over a sig file and "tested" by somebody else who should know >better. >i’m surprised i haven’t been "corrected" already for telling the webtv troll >to go to hell. >i’m sick of it.

pollyanna

Response:

"Wmaebe1" <wmae…@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message

news:20040625070917.23168.00000662@mb-m07.aol.com… > I guess I should apologize.  It was me who started this whole thing in the > first place.  I only thought it funny because it reminded me of myself.  I > think it’s good to be able to laugh at yourself because it hurts less than > having someone else laugh first.  I’m truly sorry for causing such chaos in the > group.  If nothing else, it got some action going in the group.  Much more > interesting than "Mary had a little lamb", right cogge? > Polly

LOL yep!  I posted the bumper sticker one to try and lighten things up as well, because people find different things to be amusing and some people find them offensive.  When I was working in the law office, there was a guy telling Helen Kellar jokes to me and the paraplegic gal that worked there. I thought if I had been by myself, I would have still not found it funny, but it was downright offensive for him to do that right in front of someone with such a disability.  She told me later that she just considered the source and acknowleged that he is an idiot.  But he thought he was really funny.  My brother and I like to be really silly, and one time recently he was down by his car and I was up in my picture window (on the second floor) and we spontaneously started singing the YMCA song–my kids thought we were weird and we started waving to the cars driving by.  But sometimes it is just fun to be silly–and some people don’t appreciate that. Also, people joke about things and make light of serious situations as a coping mechanism.  The movie MASH was very funny, but it was making fun of war and suicide and all sorts of things one does not normally consider to be funny.  Some people who have actually been in a war may have a hard time accepting the black humor as being humorous, given their own experiences. cogge

Response:

>From: wmae…@aol.comnojunk  (Wmaebe1) >Date: 6/25/2004 7:09 AM Eastern Standard Time >I guess I should apologize.  It was me who started this whole thing in the >first place.  I only thought it funny because it reminded me of myself.

You didn’t start anything, so don’t blame yourself.  I think there’s some behind-the-scenes tension that caused several outbursts, but I can’t figure it all out.  I’m not good at untangling conflict among more than 2 people.  I didn’t mean to sound condescending to you.  It’s just that the big pharma industry is a *very* touchy subject with me–obviously.  When I get angry, I nearly always turn that anger inward, hence yesterday’s self-attack. >If nothing else, it got some action going in the group.

Yes, it did.  From a magazine I cut out a list of "Ways to Re-Think Fear."  And one of the items is: *  Old thought: "If I express how I feel or act on what I believe, conflict will break out. I’ll be humiliated and ineffective." *  New thought: "Conflict means engagement.  Something is in motion. It’s an opening, not a closing." The whole list is good.  If only I could live all these ways out. Diana (of the Moon) "I am afraid we are not rid of God because we still have faith in grammar." –Friedrich Nietzsche

Response:

>From: "cogge’" co…@yahoo.com >Date: 6/25/2004 12:57 PM Eastern Standard Time >When I was working in the law office, there was a guy >telling Helen Kellar jokes to me and the paraplegic gal that worked there.

Helen Keller jokes!  Now there’s a blast from the past.  I totally forgot about those until you mentioned them. I don’t remember a single joke.  Care to piss off the whole cyber-universe and share one? P > But sometimes it is >just fun to be silly–and some people don’t appreciate that.

Being silly rules.  I’m 34 years old, and I still like to climb trees, turn cartwheels on the sidewalk on my way to the store, and wear glittery Renn-Faire style headdresses on the streets of D.C. when I visit there with my friend. Once my sister, my old best friend, and I put on animal noses (the kind that stay on your face by means of a rubber band around the back of your head) in bumper-to-bumper traffic.  We were in my car, crawling along with a million others, with the windows down and sporting pig and rat and elephant noses with perfect deadpan expressions on our faces.  People in the cars around us were honking and thanking us for giving them a rush-hour laugh. People who think silliness is weird and embarrassing are just secretly wishful that they could let go and be silly too.  (Acting out while drunk doesn’t count, because you’re relying on an outside substance to release you from your inhibitions.  Plus almost everyone thinks drunken behavior crosses the line from "silly to "obnoxious and embarrassing.") Diana (of the Moon) "I am afraid we are not rid of God because we still have faith in grammar." –Friedrich Nietzsche

Response:

"jemineye" <jemin…@yahoo.com> wrote > I suppose if someone came in here…and made a comment > right off about christian religion being an integral part of > coping with mental illness–you mean to say that you would > consider such a person to be welcome in here and you would > not try to "run them off" with your satanic quotes and > "blindlight" accusations?

that’s not an accusation.  it’s a frame of mind that colors everything about a person, and it’s certainly not limited to christianity.  if such a person can’t stand the heat they’d better stay the heck out of hell’s kitchen!  lol let me give you a very recent example from my own life.  cindy.  the married gal.  practicing catholic.  went to parochial schools just like myself.  her daughter just began attending john carroll, a catholic university.  just trying to give you some background here. cindy lives in the same world as you and i.  it’s a very real world.  in that very real world she is unhappy in her marriage.  old story.  husband is an okay and responsible guy but he’s inattentive to cindy.  cindy has very real human needs.  cindy develops an attraction for me and expresses it.  i am very clear with cindy about my motives.  she’s okay with that. cindy has images haunting her mind of the madonna and child with a doting joseph lurking nearby.  it’s a very powerful set of images.  all religions have them, but catholicism has probably raised such things to the highest form of art and control. cindy can’t reconcile her reality with the images.  in theory she now has it all — a husband and family to fill most of her world, and now a lover on the side to scratch the itch that no longer interests her husband.  but the last part doesn’t reconcile with the blindlight images. cindy goes nuts.  she becomes clingy and spooky.  she can’t relax and enjoy things for what they are.  her mind is working overtime in an attempt to meld reality with her blindlight fantasies.  she spies on me when she has no reason to be in this area.  she has children and a very active lifestyle in general.  no reason to be stalking me.  the rest is history. see what christianity does to a person?  LOL

Response:

"Wmaebe1" <wmae…@aol.comnojunk> wrote > It was me who started this whole thing in the first place…

damned right it’s *all* your fault!  LOL

Response:

>From: "Warlock" witc…@suck.com >Date: 6/24/2004 2:55 PM Eastern Standard Time > you also seem to be hung up on >the concept of "sucking up."  where does that come from?  i don’t do it.  i >just tell it like it is.  don’t like it?  lump it!!!!

But you seem to be the only one who has your permission to tell it like it is. Anyone else tells it like *they* see it, you criticize them.  It is not your license alone. Is it just me, or has the whole group fallen to chaos?  If everyone’s mad and everyone feels they are right, perhaps no one is right and we should all cut it out already and play nice. Diana (of the Moon) "I am afraid we are not rid of God because we still have faith in grammar." –Friedrich Nietzsche

Response:

"Diana DeLuna" <nakedlightb…@aol.comehither> wrote > Anyone else tells it like *they* see it, you criticize them.

anybody and everybody is free to express themselves here.  you’ll notice that i steer clear of many threads.  there are two reasons.  either i’m simply not interested in the subject matter or people are going off on tangents that i find disagreeable.  my general tendency is to jump into a thread if i find someone masturbating over some self-defeating thought system or pattern.  do i bully?  no.  i simply make my case.  if people can’t deal with what i have to say then they’re free to continue flagellating themselves. > Is it just me, or has the whole group fallen to chaos?

this isn’t chaos.  this is trouble in the family.  it kinda reminds me of what’s happening in my real family where we’ve divided ourselves three against three.  the three of us on one side are united against a common enemy.  our side represents practicality and logic.  the other side represents overwrought emotion, hysterics and sentimentality.  when all this estate business is settled, even those on "my side" will probably have little to do with each other. within the dynamics of this group the "common enemy" has been vanquished and it’s been a matter of trying to rebuild ever since.  the disagreements we see now are a result of different visions of how to rebuild.  that, and some of us appear too comfortable with the status-quo and are resistant to any new blood.

Response:

"cogge’" <sherl…@url.com> wrote > YOU are always the one who tells everyone they > ought to introduce themselves first rather than just > jump in with some sort of argument….

you saw an argument?  i didn’t.  i saw a minor correction stated frankly and without any tones of rancor.  YOU are the one who obviously has issues about such things.  it wouldn’t be the first time.  you also seem to be hung up on the concept of "sucking up."  where does that come from?  i don’t do it.  i just tell it like it is.  don’t like it?  lump it!!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> It has been a long time since any > trolling was welcomed with open arms by anyone, and as to "obviously > sincere", how could you possibly know that with 2 posts, both of which gave > no indication about who this person was.  I can guarantee WITHOUT A DOUBT > that if someone came in here and posted something sincere-and even kind for > that matter–and it was something YOU took offense to, you’d be tearing out > a new asshole for them.  I answered in an intentionally vague manner because > I was a little taken aback by the tone of Claudia’s post, so I answered > vaguely to avoid saying something rude like "who the hell are you and why > must you jump in with criticism before introductions–try offering a > correction in a more polite way that suggests your intent is polite and > helpful rather than rude and pushy"  That would have "certainly"  been > offensive and mean, but to be intentionally vague, and give Miss Claudia the > opportunity to think about what I was really meaning, and wonder if I had > taken her comment as rude or wonder if I was just thanking her–she would > have the opportunity to see the importance of choosing words carefully. > This is not a "test" as you call it, and its not a "game" as you also call > it, it is attempts at being polite without sucking up–its attempts to hope > that people can realize of their own accord, without confrontation, that > they need to alter their communication attempts in some way to help people > understand. > Attacking your allies is never a good thing.  I know you well enough to know > that you would respond that you consider NO one to be your ally, but you > know that isn’t true. > cogge

Response:

  when > an obviously sincere person begins to tepidly test the waters, she gets > blasted over a sig file and "tested" by somebody else who should know > better.

"tepidly" test the water? since when? like hell!! YOU are always the one who tells everyone they ought to introduce themselves first rather than just jump in with some sort of argument.  It has been a long time since any trolling was welcomed with open arms by anyone, and as to "obviously sincere", how could you possibly know that with 2 posts, both of which gave no indication about who this person was.  I can guarantee WITHOUT A DOUBT that if someone came in here and posted something sincere-and even kind for that matter–and it was something YOU took offense to, you’d be tearing out a new asshole for them.  I answered in an intentionally vague manner because I was a little taken aback by the tone of Claudia’s post, so I answered vaguely to avoid saying something rude like "who the hell are you and why must you jump in with criticism before introductions–try offering a correction in a more polite way that suggests your intent is polite and helpful rather than rude and pushy"  That would have "certainly"  been offensive and mean, but to be intentionally vague, and give Miss Claudia the opportunity to think about what I was really meaning, and wonder if I had taken her comment as rude or wonder if I was just thanking her–she would have the opportunity to see the importance of choosing words carefully. This is not a "test" as you call it, and its not a "game" as you also call it, it is attempts at being polite without sucking up–its attempts to hope that people can realize of their own accord, without confrontation, that they need to alter their communication attempts in some way to help people understand. Attacking your allies is never a good thing.  I know you well enough to know that you would respond that you consider NO one to be your ally, but you know that isn’t true. cogge

Response:

>From: Veronika veronikalind…@hotmail.com >Date: 6/21/2004 10:50 PM Eastern Standard Time >However, the worst thing for me is not the posts it’s   >sound.  If someone is making noise, it annoys me so much !!!!  I guess I >need silence in the same way we need air, water and food. Of course, >that’s if I want to keep my sanity

Me too!  I HATE NOISE.  Down with BOOMing cars.  Down with low-flying jet planes, construction vehicles backing up going BEEP BEEP BEEP… Even a mile away I cannot stand the way such a racket carries on the wind.  Down with screaming children (be they happy or upset) and the constant babble of TV. Yet for some reason, I don’t mind sounds of the wild at all.  There’s a mockingbird belting out his full repertoire right outside my open window at this very moment.  He’s fine.  He can stay.  And at night, the song of the frogs in the drainage pond can reach decibel levels far greater than the thump of a stereo on the other side of the apt. complex.   Maybe because natural vs. artificial is just a different quality of sound. Natural noise involves less "infrasound":  that low-frequency wave that travels up the frames of buildings and into my bones.  Only artificial noise drives me insane.   Or maybe it’s just psychological.  I just hate people. ) Diana (of the Moon) "I am afraid we are not rid of God because we still have faith in grammar." –Friedrich Nietzsche

Response:

>From: "Warlock" witc…@suck.com >Date: 6/21/2004 8:25 PM Eastern Standard Time > your (humorous, in my opinion) sig file came under attack >and then you received what could be considered a terse/sarcastic reply to a >correction you provided.  taken together, i’d probably react in much the >same way.

I was not planning on saying anything at all about Claudia’s sig file.  My gut reaction was "ugh >:-P" when I read it, but I was just gonna leave it alone. Only after Polly commented that she "loved" it that I felt the Cosmic Urge to express my view.  It was more an effort to "enlighten" Polly (sorry, Polly!) than it was an attack on Claudia (sorry to Claudia too!). The sig file was only humorous to you because you lean toward the misogynistic anyway. :-p  You couldn’t have thought it funny for any other reason, because I know you have somewhat similar views about the way people are forever manipulated by forces outside themselves they believe they cannot control.  In this case the controlling force is psychotropic drugs.   Constant drug control is dehumanizing–or de-creaturizing, if you’d rather–because no creature should be subjected to it year after year to "manage" what is still categorized in the DSM as a personality disorder.  And all humans are responsible for their actions no matter what state their biochemistry happens to be in on any given day. So there. P’

Response:

"> Me too!  I HATE NOISE.  Down with BOOMing cars.  Down with low-flying jet > planes, construction vehicles backing up going BEEP BEEP BEEP…

I recently read that noises over 90 Db (which is LOUD!) spike dopamine and create a natural endorphine high.  I find that hard to imagine as *I* hate loud noise and I certainly don’t feel my opiate receptors working in my favor!  My husband has such an offending stereo in his car.  Mainly because I have begged and pleaded with him to not have his home stereo so loud, as I feel very agitated from loud music.  He calls me a music hater, but in reality its quite the opposite–I am so profoundly effected by music that I can’t listen to it loud. Actually that is not even 100% true.  Sometimes I don’t mind it loud (by my measurement not by his) in the early day.  But at night (which is when he always wants to listen to his stereo–before bed) I am trying to wind down and the music just cranks me up and I can sleep and I feel agitated the whole night. OSHA regs require industrial workplaces to have an hearing protection program if they produce noise as high as 80 Db, yet many car stereo loudness contests measure them at 122Db and many fans listen regularly to about 110Db—insane! –maybe they need meds? ;-P cogge

Response:

"Diana DeLuna" <nakedlightb…@aol.comehither> wrote > You couldn’t have thought it funny for any other reason…

i don’t feel the need to rationalize every flippin thought or mood that crosses my awareness.  i thought it was funny.  period.  it had nothing to do with misogyny or meds.  it resonated with me for the simple reason that i know the feeling.  "don’t piss me off."  "don’t tread on me."  if you do, you’re gonna get a reaction you’ve probably never experienced before. that’s where i found the humor.  understood? i’m sick of this group.  we get all kinds of trolls breezing through here and certain individuals are prepared to welcome them with open arms.  when an obviously sincere person begins to tepidly test the waters, she gets blasted over a sig file and "tested" by somebody else who should know better. i’m surprised i haven’t been "corrected" already for telling the webtv troll to go to hell. i’m sick of it.

Response:

>From: "cogge’" sherl…@url.com >Date: 6/22/2004 11:47 AM Eastern Standard Time >I recently read that noises over 90 Db (which is LOUD!) spike dopamine and >create a natural endorphine high.  I find that hard to imagine as *I* hate >loud noise and I certainly don’t feel my opiate receptors working in my >favor!  My husband has such an offending stereo in his car.  Mainly because >I have begged and pleaded with him to not have his home stereo so loud, as I >feel very agitated from loud music.

My older sister feels the same about that BOOM-BOOM.  She says it gives the listener an endorphin rush, and doesn’t even mind when she’s in traffic and one of those obnoxious cretins pulls up behind or beside her and makes her windows rattle.  I told her it makes me feel as if someone is rhythmically prodding me in the chest, and she just didn’t get it.  If anything is released in my body, it’s cortisol, the stress hormone. I don’t mind my own loud music every now and then (which is why I have HEADPHONES so as not to disturb the neighbors), but only on certain days at certain times, and when I’m not trying to concentrate on anything else. Perhaps a good portion of the stress for me has to do with a lack of control over other people’s noise. Cogge, you oughta check out a website called lowertheboom.org.   The site goes deep (and I mean DEEP) into the technical structure of "infrasound" and all the ways it harms the health and wellbeing of life on earth.  They are true neurotics–my kinda folk!  I heart this site. ) Diana (of the Moon) "I am afraid we are not rid of God because we still have faith in grammar." –Friedrich Nietzsche

Response:

Ok, first off, I’m sorry to anyone I’ve snapped at or offended here. Secondly, I’m under a lot of stress lately and I snap at everything, so this is probably not the place for me.  So to avoid any further problems, I’m unsubscribing this newsgroup. Be well, everyone. — Claudia Engel  (no emails please) aka: Engelchen

Response:

"Claudia Engel" <engelc…@nospam.invalid> wrote > Ok, first off, I’m sorry to anyone I’ve snapped at or offended here.

i’m sorry that you’ve been victimized by some poor communications of late. i haven’t been participating much but i’ve been following threads and see what’s happened.  your (humorous, in my opinion) sig file came under attack and then you received what could be considered a terse/sarcastic reply to a correction you provided.  taken together, i’d probably react in much the same way. i’ve been accused of scaring new people away from the group because i have a low tolerance for bullshit and games.  at least i *know* bullshit and games when i see them.  AHEM!  i scare away the bullshit artists, but we need some sincere new participants.  i think you might qualify.  :) there are good people in this group, including the folks with whom you’ve recently wrangled.  what’s happened here is an example of miscommunication or downright poor communications.  i hope you reconsider and continue to hang out. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Secondly, I’m under a lot of stress lately and I snap at everything, so > this is probably not the place for me.  So to avoid any further problems, > I’m unsubscribing this newsgroup. > Be well, everyone. > — > Claudia Engel  (no emails please) > aka: Engelchen

Response:

"Warlock" <witc…@suck.com> wrote in news:2jpck2F14cvvqU1@uni-berlin.de: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Claudia Engel" <engelc…@nospam.invalid> wrote >> Ok, first off, I’m sorry to anyone I’ve snapped at or offended here. > i’m sorry that you’ve been victimized by some poor communications of > late. i haven’t been participating much but i’ve been following > threads and see what’s happened.  your (humorous, in my opinion) sig > file came under attack and then you received what could be considered > a terse/sarcastic reply to a correction you provided.  taken together, > i’d probably react in much the same way. > i’ve been accused of scaring new people away from the group because i > have a low tolerance for bullshit and games.  at least i *know* > bullshit and games when i see them.  AHEM!  i scare away the bullshit > artists, but we need some sincere new participants.  i think you might > qualify.  :) > there are good people in this group, including the folks with whom > you’ve recently wrangled.  what’s happened here is an example of > miscommunication or downright poor communications.  i hope you > reconsider and continue to hang out. >> Secondly, I’m under a lot of stress lately and I snap at everything, >> so this is probably not the place for me.  So to avoid any further >> problems, I’m unsubscribing this newsgroup. >> Be well, everyone. >> — >> Claudia Engel  (no emails please) >> aka: Engelchen

Well … at least she cannot unsubscribe lol me too .. When I’m under a lot of stress (even when I’m totally relaxed my cortisol is already too high, so you can imagine :S ) I tend to be very impatient.  However, the worst thing for me is not the posts it’s   sound.  If someone is making noise, it annoys me so much !!!!  I guess I need silence in the same way we need air, water and food. Of course, that’s if I want to keep my sanity — People have written mournfully about the futility of our pitiful existence, knowing that our civilization will inexorably die when our world ends

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was raised Catholic.  They did a great job of screwing up my head with all their nonsense.  I was never to have sex, never to say a cuss word, never to do many things that are just normal things that humans do.  And the real catch was the part avout the Catholic church being the ONLY true church, and if I so much as stepped foot into another church, I’d go straight to hell.  I was so brainwashed that my whole childhood was a time of fear and paranoia.  If I so much as looked at someone of the opposite sex, I knew I’d go to hell.  If I so much as touched my private parts, I knew I’d go to hell.  No matter how hurt or angry I was, if I said any of those dirty words (and catholics have a very long list), I knew I’d go to hell.  If I got to school a few minutes late, and lied about it, I knew I’d go to hell.  If I picked up a penny on the sidewalk, I was stealing, and I knew I’d go to hell. Then came the time I had to go to a neighboring church for a 4H meeting, and I cried and acted sick because I knew that going to a non-catholic church meant I’d surely go to hell, yet by acting sick (and not really sick), I was lying, and I knew I’d go to hell for that.  No matter what I did, I knew I’d go to hell.  Eight years of catholic school, daily church services, and having to give away my daily milk money every day during mass, and all I learned was I knew I’d go to hell. One day I walked into church and said the hell with this, and left.  I left my catholic parents, and ran away from home.  I think I was about 15 years old at the time.  Soon, I was smoking and drinking and doing drigs, and cussing, and having sex with any member of the opposite sex that would even look at me.  I knew for sure that I’d go to hell for all of this, but I didn’t care anymore.  Several years of rebeling and living on the wild side, finally brought me to a point in life where I had nothing but the shirt on my back.  That took me to a place where they had free food for the needy, and soon they were talking about God.  At first I wanted to run, but I wanted the food.  Then I heard them talking about God as being a friend, not someone who just sends everyone that is not 100% perfect to hell.  I soon discovered this was a lutheran church.  Eventually, I started hanging around with some of those people, and realized that they are much more "real". I am now an old man.  While I have had a life time of miserable love relationships, and I base this much on my catholic upbringing, and the miserable attitude they created in my mind about sex, I have overcome most of the other hangups they created.  I now cuss regularly, and while some people frown on it, it makes me feel human.  I occasionally lie, especially when the cop pulls me over for speeding, and I do many other things that the catholic church would send me to hell for.  But guess what.  I’m not going to hell for those little things.  I dont murder people, or do other truely terrible things, I just do those little things that most everyone does.  I also do not go to a catholic church anymore.  While all that nonsense as a child repulsed me about attending church, I do occasionally go to church, and generally I choose a Lutheran one. So, in closing, I will say this without any guilt.  The pope is a asshole who needs to have sex.  The catholic church is a big money making corporation that uses brainwashing and guilt to get rich.  God is my friend, I’m not going to hell, and The Catholic Church is Fucked……

What you say about the  Catholic Church is absolutely true *BUT* unless you have accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior you *ARE* going to Hell.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was raised Catholic.  They did a great job of screwing up my head with all their nonsense.  I was never to have sex, never to say a cuss word, never to do many things that are just normal things that humans do.  And the real catch was the part avout the Catholic church being the ONLY true church, and if I so much as stepped foot into another church, I’d go straight to hell.  I was so brainwashed that my whole childhood was a time of fear and paranoia.  If I so much as looked at someone of the opposite sex, I knew I’d go to hell.  If I so much as touched my private parts, I knew I’d go to hell.  No matter how hurt or angry I was, if I said any of those dirty words (and catholics have a very long list), I knew I’d go to hell.  If I got to school a few minutes late, and lied about it, I knew I’d go to hell.  If I picked up a penny on the sidewalk, I was stealing, and I knew I’d go to hell. Then came the time I had to go to a neighboring church for a 4H meeting, and I cried and acted sick because I knew that going to a non-catholic church meant I’d surely go to hell, yet by acting sick (and not really sick), I was lying, and I knew I’d go to hell for that.  No matter what I did, I knew I’d go to hell.  Eight years of catholic school, daily church services, and having to give away my daily milk money every day during mass, and all I learned was I knew I’d go to hell. One day I walked into church and said the hell with this, and left.  I left my catholic parents, and ran away from home.  I think I was about 15 years old at the time.  Soon, I was smoking and drinking and doing drigs, and cussing, and having sex with any member of the opposite sex that would even look at me.  I knew for sure that I’d go to hell for all of this, but I didn’t care anymore.  Several years of rebeling and living on the wild side, finally brought me to a point in life where I had nothing but the shirt on my back.  That took me to a place where they had free food for the needy, and soon they were talking about God.  At first I wanted to run, but I wanted the food.  Then I heard them talking about God as being a friend, not someone who just sends everyone that is not 100% perfect to hell.  I soon discovered this was a lutheran church.  Eventually, I started hanging around with some of those people, and realized that they are much more "real". I am now an old man.  While I have had a life time of miserable love relationships, and I base this much on my catholic upbringing, and the miserable attitude they created in my mind about sex, I have overcome most of the other hangups they created.  I now cuss regularly, and while some people frown on it, it makes me feel human.  I occasionally lie, especially when the cop pulls me over for speeding, and I do many other things that the catholic church would send me to hell for.  But guess what.  I’m not going to hell for those little things.  I dont murder people, or do other truely terrible things, I just do those little things that most everyone does.  I also do not go to a catholic church anymore.  While all that nonsense as a child repulsed me about attending church, I do occasionally go to church, and generally I choose a Lutheran one. So, in closing, I will say this without any guilt.  The pope is a asshole who needs to have sex.  The catholic church is a big money making corporation that uses brainwashing and guilt to get rich.  God is my friend, I’m not going to hell, and The Catholic Church is Fucked…… What you say about the  Catholic Church is absolutely true *BUT* unless you have accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior you *ARE* going to Hell.

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 4 Contentments from God 1. Pardon God has already pardoned our sins Tom: Since sin is defined as an offense against God and God doesn’t exist I am free of sin. Tigr: Just because you don’t believe in God doesn’t mean he doesn’t exist. Since He does and you are even capitalizing his name showing that somewhere in your being you know this.  Therefore like the rest of us, yes, you are a sinner.

Tom: Amazing, You can’t tell a Christian that you don’t believe. No buddy, I don’t believe and you need to believe it and I don’t sin. You appear to be a dumb SOB who has trouble just living. Why complicate your life by trying to tell me what I believe? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrightous man his  thoughts; and let him return unto the Lord, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon." Isaiah 55:7 "…because your sins are forgiven you for His names sake."  I John 4:12 2. Peace God gives us His peace for He is peace Tom: The absence of God gave me the greatest peace. When I finally realized that God didn’t exist the peace of existence spread over me. Tigr: Aparently you don’t have true peace otherwise why would you be scanning these newsgroups and trying to rebute the truth?

Tom: I scan these newsgroups fighting ignorant fundamental creationism. If I get the chance to shoot down a few  fools like YM1, I take it. It is great sport. Tigr:  God brings true peace. My world can crash around me and as long as I know God is there I know that I will rise up from the situation.  I know that I will be stronger, wiser, humbler, more loving, more giving, more caring and more prepared to work in His kingdom.

Tom: Good for you. I can have true peace around me without all of that garbage. You remind me of the killer of the abortion doctor who was executed a few weeks ago. He had great peace as he was killed. The good thing about simple Christians is that they will never know the difference. Eternal sleep. That’s all folks! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you; not as the world giveth, give I you.  Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid."  John 14:27 "And the peace of god, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus."  Phil 4:7 3. Purpose God establishes a purpose for each of His own. Tom: I developed my own purpose. That way I’m not doing foolish things such as shooting abortion doctors, etc. or giving my money to him when he should be perfectly capable of making his own money. Tigr: A person who is truly in line with God’s purpose would not shoot an abortion doctor either.   I don’t recall any scriptures saying go yea and shoot the baby killers do you????

Tom: Not at all. That is why I wonder why you Christians do such things. Tigr:  I don’t really give anything to God either.  I simply return a portion, say 10%, of what he has given me.  So technically if he were as selfish as we are we would have nothing not even life.

Tom: See, I’m 10% ahead of you right off the bat. Yeah , God is really a peach of a fellow. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Our purpose in life is to worship God and to have fellowship with  Him. "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship Him." John 4:23 4. Power God grants us His power to live for Him Tom: Since I am free of the yoke of God and therefore don’t have to carry the two of us I don’t need his power. It would have been nice if he had carried his weight for all those years that I carried him but he never lifted a finger. God’s yoke is not a limit to freedom.  It is true freedom.  It is self denying love as best exampled by His Son Jesus Christ.  There is but one unpardonable sin in scripture to my knowledge.  To blasphem the Holy Spirit.  I truly hope in your heart you do not feel the way you wrote.

Bull shit, you simpleton, I feel exactly as I wrote. Why? Do you think I’m a hypocrite like most of you Christians? And yes, religion is a yoke around your neck. Tigr:   I truly hope that God in his infinite mercy and grace will forgive your misconceptions as He has forgiven me of my sins as well.  I truly hope that God will soften your heart so you can hear that still small voice saying "Come to me"

Tom: Tell you what buddy, when I hear "god" speak to me out loud then I’ll believe. I feel sorry for you as you have been told by your Christian masters that you are a "sinner" and need of "salvation" by a "savior". What you need to do is learn a little about mythology and why Christianity is the biggest myth of them all.

Response:

4 Contentments from God 1. Pardon God has already pardoned our sins Tom: Since sin is defined as an offense against God and God doesn’t exist I am free of sin.

Just because you don’t believe in God doesn’t mean he doesn’t exist.  Since He does and you are even capitalizing his name showing that somewhere in your being you know this.  Therefore like the rest of us, yes, you are a sinner.    "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrightous man his  thoughts; and let him return unto the Lord, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon." Isaiah 55:7 "…because your sins are forgiven you for His names sake."  I John 4:12 2. Peace God gives us His peace for He is peace Tom: The absence of God gave me the greatest peace. When I finally realized that God didn’t exist the peace of existence spread over me.

Aparently you don’t have true peace otherwise why would you be scanning these newsgroups and trying to rebute the truth?  God brings true peace.   My world can crash around me and as long as I know God is there I know that     I will rise up from the situation.  I know that I will be stronger, wiser, humbler, more loving, more giving, more caring and more prepared to work in   His kingdom. "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you; not as the world giveth, give I you.  Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid."  John 14:27 "And the peace of god, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus."  Phil 4:7 3. Purpose God establishes a purpose for each of His own. Tom: I developed my own purpose. That way I’m not doing foolish things such as shooting abortion doctors, etc. or giving my money to him when he should be perfectly capable of making his own money.

A person who is truly in line with God’s purpose would not shoot an abortion doctor either.   I don’t recall any scriptures saying go yea and shoot the baby killers do you????   I don’t really give anything to God either.  I simply return a portion, say 10%, of what he has given me.  So technically if he were as selfish as we are we would have nothing not even life.  Our purpose in life is to worship God and to have fellowship with  Him. "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship Him." John 4:23 4. Power God grants us His power to live for Him Tom: Since I am free of the yoke of God and therefore don’t have to carry the two of us I don’t need his power. It would have been nice if he had carried his weight for all those years that I carried him but he never lifted a finger.

God’s yoke is not a limit to freedom.  It is true freedom.  It is self denying love as best exampled by His Son Jesus Christ.  There is but one unpardonable sin in scripture to my knowledge.  To blasphem the Holy Spirit.  I truly hope in your heart you do not feel the way you wrote.   I truly hope that God in his infinite mercy and grace will forgive your misconceptions as He has forgiven me of my sins as well.  I truly hope that God will soften your heart so you can hear that still small voice saying "Come to me" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "But ye shall receive power after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you:" Acts 1:8 "For the preaching of the cross is to them that parish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."  I Cor 1:18 "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheth me." Phil 4:13 Can you see these contentments in your life as you walk with the Lord Jesus Christ? Tom: What "contentments"? The struggle to carry your "god"? Sorry YM1, the journey is much easier without imaginary friends.

Response:

4 Contentments from God 1. Pardon God has already pardoned our sins

Tom: Since sin is defined as an offense against God and God doesn’t exist I am free of sin.  "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrightous man his thoughts; and let him return unto the Lord, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon." Isaiah 55:7 "…because your sins are forgiven you for His names sake."  I John 4:12 2. Peace God gives us His peace for He is peace

Tom: The absence of God gave me the greatest peace. When I finally realized that God didn’t exist the peace of existence spread over me. "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you; not as the world giveth, give I you.  Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid."  John 14:27 "And the peace of god, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus."  Phil 4:7 3. Purpose God establishes a purpose for each of His own.

Tom: I developed my own purpose. That way I’m not doing foolish things such as shooting abortion doctors, etc. or giving my money to him when he should be perfectly capable of making his own money.  Our purpose in life is to worship God and to have fellowship with Him. "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship Him." John 4:23 4. Power God grants us His power to live for Him

Tom: Since I am free of the yoke of God and therefore don’t have to carry the two of us I don’t need his power. It would have been nice if he had carried his weight for all those years that I carried him but he never lifted a finger. "But ye shall receive power after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you:" Acts 1:8 "For the preaching of the cross is to them that parish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."  I Cor 1:18 "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheth me." Phil 4:13 Can you see these contentments in your life as you walk with the Lord Jesus Christ?

Tom: What "contentments"? The struggle to carry your "god"? Sorry YM1, the journey is much easier without imaginary friends.

Response:

4 Contentments from God 1. Pardon God has already pardoned our sins  "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrightous man his thoughts; and let him return unto the Lord, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon." Isaiah 55:7 "…because your sins are forgiven you for His names sake."  I John 4:12 2. Peace God gives us His peace for He is peace "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you; not as the world giveth, give I you.  Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid."  John 14:27 "And the peace of god, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus."  Phil 4:7 3. Purpose God establishes a purpose for each of His own.  Our purpose in life is to worship God and to have fellowship with Him. "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship Him." John 4:23 4. Power God grants us His power to live for Him "But ye shall receive power after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you:" Acts 1:8 "For the preaching of the cross is to them that parish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."  I Cor 1:18 "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheth me." Phil 4:13 Can you see these contentments in your life as you walk with the Lord Jesus Christ?

Response:

4 Contentments from God 1. Pardon God has already pardoned our sins  "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrightous man his thoughts; and let him return unto the Lord, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon." Isaiah 55:7 "…because your sins are forgiven you for His names sake."  I John 4:12 2. Peace God gives us His peace for He is peace "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you; not as the world giveth, give I you.  Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid."  John 14:27 "And the peace of god, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus."  Phil 4:7 3. Purpose God establishes a purpose for each of His own.  Our purpose in life is to worship God and to have fellowship with Him. "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship Him." John 4:23 4. Power God grants us His power to live for Him "But ye shall receive power after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you:" Acts 1:8 "For the preaching of the cross is to them that parish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."  I Cor 1:18 "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheth me." Phil 4:13 Can you see these contentments in your life as you walk with the Lord Jesus Christ?

Response:

4 Contentments from God 1. Pardon God has already pardoned our sins  "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrightous man his thoughts;  and let him return unto the Lord, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon." Isaiah 55:7

Note, though, that you are supposed to FORSAKE your sins, not wallow in them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "…because your sins are forgiven you for His names sake."  I John 4:12 2. Peace God gives us His peace for He is peace "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you; not as the world giveth, give I you.  Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid."  John 14:27 "And the peace of god, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus."  Phil 4:7 3. Purpose God establishes a purpose for each of His own.  Our purpose in life is to worship God and to have fellowship with  Him.

But how can you claim to have fellowship with Him when you will not obey His commandments, or even TRY? "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship Him." John 4:23 4. Power God grants us His power to live for Him "But ye shall receive power after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you:" Acts 1:8 "For the preaching of the cross is to them that parish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."  I Cor 1:18 "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheth me." Phil 4:13 Can you see these contentments in your life as you walk with the Lord Jesus Christ?

I would say that I can.  Unfortunately, there seem to be a lot here who claim to, but who clearly do not. — Dave Oldridge ICQ 1800667 Paradoxically, most real events are highly improbable.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive:yes 4 Contentments from God 1. Pardon God has already pardoned our sins  "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrightous man his  thoughts; and let him return unto the Lord, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon." Isaiah 55:7 Note, though, that you are supposed to FORSAKE your sins, not wallow in them. Speak for yourself. "…because your sins are forgiven you for His names sake."  I John 4:12 2. Peace God gives us His peace for He is peace "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you; not as the world giveth, give I you.  Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid."  John 14:27 "And the peace of god, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus."  Phil 4:7 3. Purpose God establishes a purpose for each of His own.  Our purpose in life is to worship God and to have fellowship with  Him. But how can you claim to have fellowship with Him when you will not obey His commandments, or even TRY? Judge yourself and no one else. "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship Him." John 4:23 4. Power God grants us His power to live for Him "But ye shall receive power after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you:" Acts 1:8 "For the preaching of the cross is to them that parish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."  I Cor 1:18 "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheth me." Phil 4:13 Can you see these contentments in your life as you walk with the Lord Jesus Christ? I would say that I can.   Prove it.  You haven’t done too well thus far. Unfortunately, there seem to be a lot here who claim to, but who clearly do not. Look in the mirror and judge THAT person. Until then, you break an OLD adage "Don’t judge a man until you walk a mile in his moccasins." There are good reasons for these old piths.  They work.

And there are good reasons for judging righteous judgement and refraining from joining heretics and others who would suborn me into sin.  Young earth creationism is heresy because it suborns sin in God’s name. — Dave Oldridge ICQ 1800667 Paradoxically, most real events are highly improbable.

Response:

Are you in a drug or alcohol recovery program?

Response:

4 Contentments from God 1. Pardon God has already pardoned our sins  "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrightous man his thoughts; and let him return unto the Lord, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon." Isaiah 55:7 "…because your sins are forgiven you for His names sake."  I John 4:12

Gods love is very conditional and if you don’t love him a certain way then its off to hell you go. What a plan. 2. Peace God gives us His peace for He is peace "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you; not as the world giveth, give I you.  Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid."  John 14:27 "And the peace of god, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus."  Phil 4:7

fluff, just close your eyes long enough and you will find peace. 3. Purpose God establishes a purpose for each of His own.  Our purpose in life is to worship God and to have fellowship with Him. "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship Him." John 4:23

God the egotistical tyrant, needs to be worshiped. A true god needs nothing. 4. Power God grants us His power to live for Him "But ye shall receive power after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you:" Acts 1:8 "For the preaching of the cross is to them that parish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."  I Cor 1:18 "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheth me." Phil 4:13 Can you see these contentments in your life as you walk with the Lord Jesus Christ?

Try taking your meds and you might stop seeing things

Response:

4 Contentments from God 1. Pardon God has already pardoned our sins

Gee, magnanimity at its best…. — Ph

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Ineedmoney" <m…@atmycomputer.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message <news:c6pja0$dvq$2@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>… > "Ineedmoney" <m…@atmycomputer.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message > news:c6piho$dje$2@news7.svr.pol.co.uk… > > "Richard" <rander3…@rogers.com> wrote in message > > news:ec75e55a.0404281117.7fe78c27@posting.google.com… > > > Carol Lee Smith <hu…@csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message >  <news:Pine.OSF.3.96.1040428090729.27563G-100000@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu>… > > > > In article <a5a860fc.0404272053.63303…@posting.google.com>, > > > >  oh…@hotmail.com says… > > > >  > A reasonable challenge to the skeptic is this: If it can be proved > > > >  > that Jesus really rose from the dead, will you believe in him? > > > > Cart before the horse. > > > > How about proving he actually existed. > > > > I haven’t seen proof of that yet. > > > > After that is provided, we can go on to the other sticky little >  details > > > How are you going to secure proof that ANY specific person existed then, > > > outside of written records??? > > The events that the gospels are so dramatic that there would but >  historical > > evidence to back it up, but there isnt anything of any of it. > Translation of garbled mess: > The events that the gospels describe are so dramatic that there would have > been historical evidence around in fact tons of it, but there just isnt > anything at all. > Ed

Prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt Napoleon existed.  Sometimes, you have to take what information there is an make a judgement.  I think it’s pretty persuasive that Christ existed. -Rich

Response:

rander3…@rogers.com (Richard) wrote in message <news:ec75e55a.0404281117.7fe78c27@posting.google.com>… > How are you going to secure proof that ANY specific person existed then, > outside of written records???

The Romans kept meticulous records of people they arrested, convicted and executed. A death decree specifying Jesus of Nazareth would be nice. Ooops, never been found… – Jordan

Response:

"Jordan Lund" <lu…@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:92dbefbe.0404290801.5d9f60ee@posting.google.com… > None of your points on the myth theory are able to refute why the > Christ myth seems to repeat, in detail, earlier messiah myths. Namely > Osirus, Mithras and Dionysus. It seems too much to fathom that a real > person went through the same things that mythological dieties did.

<snip> I agree with all your points but this. Mithras is a tricky one, as we know very little about it but we do know that it arose around the same time as Christian beliefs. Ed

Response:

oh…@hotmail.com (ohoe) wrote in message <news:a5a860fc.0404272053.6330393a@posting.google.com>… > Nine pieces of evidence refute the swoon theory:

The problem with your nine points is that you assume the crucifixion was done to normal Roman standards, it wasn’t. The best estimate is that Jesus was on the cross for around 6 hours. The problem is that it would often take someone days to die from crucifixion. This is why breaking their legs was necessary, it sped up the process. Of course, as you point out, Jesus’ legs weren’t broken. Similarly the book of John has interesting things to say about what was done after "the body" was brought down. At one point it was said that he was covered in Aloe and Myrrh (John 19:39), both powerful antiseptic and healing agents. http://mdmd.essortment.com/whatismyrrh_riss.htm "extremely high antiseptic and anti-inflammatory properties. It was used to clean wounds and to prevent infection. It was also used to prevent the spread of gangrene in already infected parts of the body." http://wholeleaf.com/aloeverainfo/aloeverahealingproperties.html "Aloe vera contains Glucomannan, a special complex polysaccharide composed largely of the sugar mannose. It interacts with special cell-surface receptors on those cells which repair damaged tissues, called fibroblasts, stimulating them, activating their faster growth and replication. Plant hormones in Aloe, called gibberellins, also accelerate healing by stimulating cell replication. These combined actions make Aloe a uniquely potent healing Herb." > Refutation of the Myth Theory: Six Arguments > (1) The style of the Gospels is radically and clearly different from > the style of all the myths. Any literary scholar who knows and > appreciates myths can verify this. There are no overblown, > spectacular, childishly exaggerated events. Nothing is arbitrary. > Everything fits in. Everything is meaningful. The hand of a master is > at work here.

I would argue that all of the miracles attributed to Christ, walking on water, loaves and fishes, water into wine are in fact mythic in nature. Certainly they would qualify as overblown, spectacular and/or childishly exaggerated. > There are also telltale marks of eyewitness description, like the > little detail of Jesus writing in the sand when asked whether to stone > the adulteress or not (Jn 8:6). No one knows why this is put in; > nothing comes of it. The only explanation is that the writer saw it.

Or rather that it was included in an earlier text and copied incorrectly without the context. Or possibly that the work was edited by the church to eliminate something they don’t want us to know. The idea that the Gospels were written by the apostles is quaint, but it totally goes against all modern Biblical scholarship. > (2) A second problem is that there was not enough time for myth to > develop.

Myth takes a lot less time to develop than you might think. Take a look at the urban legend site http://www.snopes.com for hundreds of examples. You think myth spreads fast now, thanks to the Internet? Imagine it in a primarily uneducated oral culture. > The dates for the writing of the Gospels have been pushed back by > every empirical manuscript discovery; only abstract hypothesizing > pushes the date forward.

What is commonly thought today: http://i-cias.com/e.o/gospel.htm "The oldest gospel is most likely Mark, and can be dated to around 70 CE, or 35-40 years after the time of Jesus’ death. The 3 other gospels of the New Testament belong to the period of 80- 100 CE. The Gospel of Thomas dates to around 200 CE. For the gospels, it is believed that there can have been an original source, now lost, which by scholars is called Q. There is however, no evidence of any kind for this theory, it is the product of investigation on how literary presentations of this time came to be materialized." So, if you were an eyewitness to the events of the Bible, why wait 40 years to write it down? Kind of shoots down the eyewitness theory… > Some scholars still dispute the first-century date for the Gospels, > especially John’s. But no one disputes that Paul’s letters were > written within the lifetime of eyewitnesses to Christ.

Paul was formerly known as Saul of Tarsus and never even met Christ. He had a supposed vision on the road to Damascus after the supposed ressurection. You are confusing (as most Christians do) two completely different Pauls. The Paul who wrote the letters was not an apostle. http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/tarsus.htm My personal opinion was that when Saul found out that his religious views were losing their hold (he was formerly an outspoken critic of the early Christians), he realized the powerbase was shifting and so staged his miraculous conversion. I suggest reading the wonderful book "Rescuing the Bible From Fundamentalism" by Anglican Bishop John Spong. > Muller challenged his nineteenth-century contemporaries to produce a > single example anywhere in history of a great myth or legend arising > around a historical figure and being generally believed within thirty > years after that figure’s death. No one has ever answered him.

http://gwpapers.virginia.edu/faq/ "Q: Did George Washington chop down a cherry tree? A: Probably not. The story was likely invented by a man named Mason Weems shortly after Washington’s death. Ironically, the story was intended to show how honest Washington was: George confesses to his father saying, "I cannot tell a lie." http://www.nps.gov/fone/classroom/fiwar/gwmyths_student.htm "Myth: Washington succeeded in throwing a silver dollar across the Potomac River. What this myth teaches: This highlighted his great strength. Washington may have thrown an object across the Rappahanack River, the river on which his childhood home, Ferry Farm, stood. However, he would not have been able to throw anything across the Potomac, which is over a mile wide at Mount Vernon. Also he wouldn’t have thrown a sliver dollar because silver dollars didn’t exist." None of your points on the myth theory are able to refute why the Christ myth seems to repeat, in detail, earlier messiah myths. Namely Osirus, Mithras and Dionysus. It seems too much to fathom that a real person went through the same things that mythological dieties did. – Jordan

Response:

"Richard" <rander3…@rogers.com> wrote in message

news:ec75e55a.0404281117.7fe78c27@posting.google.com… > Carol Lee Smith <hu…@csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message

<news:Pine.OSF.3.96.1040428090729.27563G-100000@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu>… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > In article <a5a860fc.0404272053.63303…@posting.google.com>, > >  oh…@hotmail.com says… > >  > A reasonable challenge to the skeptic is this: If it can be proved > >  > that Jesus really rose from the dead, will you believe in him? > > Cart before the horse. > > How about proving he actually existed. > > I haven’t seen proof of that yet. > > After that is provided, we can go on to the other sticky little details > How are you going to secure proof that ANY specific person existed then, > outside of written records???

The events that the gospels are so dramatic that there would but historical evidence to back it up, but there isnt anything of any of it. Ed

Response:

"Il_riccio" <lunedin…@aliceposta.it> wrote in message

news:d4696a31.0404281235.4f9deb78@posting.google.com… > crazybe…@my-deja.com (Roger Andrews) wrote in message

<news:cda5d73a.0404280543.23528823@posting.google.com>… > > oh…@hotmail.com (ohoe) wrote in message

<news:a5a860fc.0404272053.6330393a@posting.google.com>… > > <SNIP FLAWED LOGIC> > > By using that logic it must be assumed that Elvis was also > > resurrected. I think I’ll go out and join the Church of Elvis instead. > > He was much cooler. > > Roger > I am the proof. > I am Jesus.

I know this is a joke, but there is actually someone on usenet that goes by the name "Dore" which literally thinks she IS the second coming. I shit you not. Ed

Response:

"Ineedmoney" <m…@atmycomputer.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message

news:c6piho$dje$2@news7.svr.pol.co.uk… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Richard" <rander3…@rogers.com> wrote in message > news:ec75e55a.0404281117.7fe78c27@posting.google.com… > > Carol Lee Smith <hu…@csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message > <news:Pine.OSF.3.96.1040428090729.27563G-100000@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu>… > > > In article <a5a860fc.0404272053.63303…@posting.google.com>, > > >  oh…@hotmail.com says… > > >  > A reasonable challenge to the skeptic is this: If it can be proved > > >  > that Jesus really rose from the dead, will you believe in him? > > > Cart before the horse. > > > How about proving he actually existed. > > > I haven’t seen proof of that yet. > > > After that is provided, we can go on to the other sticky little details > > How are you going to secure proof that ANY specific person existed then, > > outside of written records??? > The events that the gospels are so dramatic that there would but historical > evidence to back it up, but there isnt anything of any of it.

Translation of garbled mess: The events that the gospels describe are so dramatic that there would have been historical evidence around in fact tons of it, but there just isnt anything at all. Ed

Response:

O.K., so if he’s alive in the body where is he now? If he had really resurrected, you woulda thunk he would’ve stuck around and really cleaned house. Instead, he skulks around for what, 40 days?, makes some vague comments to disciples, then pooft! Gone again? Doesn’t work for me. Where were the rewrite guys on this?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -lunedin…@aliceposta.it (Il_riccio) wrote in message <news:d4696a31.0404281235.4f9deb78@posting.google.com>… > crazybe…@my-deja.com (Roger Andrews) wrote in message <news:cda5d73a.0404280543.23528823@posting.google.com>… > > oh…@hotmail.com (ohoe) wrote in message <news:a5a860fc.0404272053.6330393a@posting.google.com>… > > <SNIP FLAWED LOGIC> > > By using that logic it must be assumed that Elvis was also > > resurrected. I think I’ll go out and join the Church of Elvis instead. > > He was much cooler. > > Roger > I am the proof. > I am Jesus. > Davide

And I’m the next Buddha. Roger

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -oh…@hotmail.com (ohoe) wrote in message <news:a5a860fc.0404272053.6330393a@posting.google.com>… > EVIDENCE FOR THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST > A Challenge for Skeptics > From chapter 8 of Handbook of Christian Apologetics by Peter > Kreeft/Fr. Ronald Tacelli, SJ (Intervarsity Press, 1994) > —————————————————————— > A reasonable challenge to the skeptic is this: If it can be proved > that Jesus really rose from the dead, will you believe in him? For if > he really rose, that validates his claim to be divine and not merely > human, for resurrection from death is beyond human power; and his > divinity validates the truth of everything else he said, for God > cannot lie. > The Strategy of the Argument for the Resurrection: Five Possible > Theories > We believe Christ’s resurrection can be proved with at least as much > certainty as any universally believed and well-documented event in > ancient history. To prove this, we do not need to presuppose anything > controversial (e.g. that miracles happen). But the skeptic must also > not presuppose anything (e.g. that they do not). We do not need to > presuppose that the New Testament is infallible, or divinely inspired > or even true. We do not need to presuppose that there really was an > empty tomb or post-resurrection appearances, as recorded. We need to > presuppose only two things, both of which are hard data, empirical > data, which no one denies: > I. The existence of the New Testament texts as we have them. > II. The existence (but not necessarily the truth) of the Christian > religion as we find it today. > The question is this: Which theory about what really happened in > Jerusalem on that first Easter Sunday can account for the data? There > are five possible theories: Christianity, hallucination, myth, > conspiracy and swoon. > Jesus died — Jesus rose ———————————- (1) > Christianity > Jesus didn’t rise — the apostles were deceived —– (2) > Hallucination > the apostles were myth-makers ————————- (3) Myth > the apostles were deceivers —————————— (4) > Conspiracy > Jesus didn’t die ———————————————- (5) > Swoon > Theories 2 and 4 constitute a dilemma: if Jesus didn’t rise, then the > apostles, who taught that he did, were either deceived (if they > thought he did) or deceivers (if they knew he didn’t). The Modernists > could not escape this dilemma until they came up with a middle > category, myth. It is the most popular alternative today. > Thus either (1) the resurrection really happened, (2) the apostles > were deceived by a hallucination, (3) the apostles created a myth, not > meaning it literally, (4) the apostles were deceivers who conspired to > foist on the world the most famous and successful lie in history, or > (5) Jesus only swooned and was resuscitated, not resurrected. All five > theories are logically possible, and therefore must be fairly > investigated — even (1) ! They are also the only possibilities, > unless we include really far-out ideas that responsible historians > have never taken seriously, such as that Jesus was really a Martian > who came in a flying saucer. Or that he never even existed; that the > whole story was the world’s greatest fantasy novel, written by some > simple fisherman; that he was a literary character whom everyone in > history mistook for a real person, including all Christians and their > enemies, until some scholar many centuries later got the real scoop > from sources unnamed. > If we can refute all other theories (2-5), we will have proved the > truth of the resurrection (1). The form of the argument here is > similar to that of most of the arguments for the existence of God. > Neither God nor the resurrection are directly observable, but from > data that are directly observable we can argue that the only possible > adequate explanation of this data is the Christian one. > We shall take the four non-believing theories in the following order: > from the simplest, least popular and most easily refuted to the most > confusing, most popular and most complexly refuted: first swoon, then > conspiracy, then hallucination and finally myth. > Refutation of the Swoon Theory: Nine Arguments > Nine pieces of evidence refute the swoon theory: > (1) Jesus could not have survived crucifixion. Roman procedures were > very careful to eliminate that possibility. Roman law even laid the > death penalty on any soldier who let a capital prisoner escape in any > way, including bungling a crucifixion. It was never done.

     All this proves is that the soldiers were convinced he died rather than he actually did. > (2) The fact that the Roman soldier did not break Jesus’ legs, as he > did to the other two crucified criminals (Jn 19:31-33), means that the > soldier was sure Jesus was dead. Breaking the legs hastened the death > so that the corpse could be taken down before the sabbath (v. 31).

    Again, they were convinced he was dead but that does not mean that he was. > (3) John, an eyewitness, certified that he saw blood and water come > from Jesus’ pierced heart (Jn 19:34-35). This shows that Jesus’ lungs > had collapsed and he had died of asphyxiation. Any medical expert can > vouch for this.

     Any medical examiner worth his salt will also tell you that DEAD MEN DON’T BLEED!  It would take blood a matter of about 2.5 minutes to pool in the lower parts of a body thus suspended.  The "water" was probably fluid from the pleural cavity that would have been so pierced.  In fact, you might have even heard it "pop". > (4) The body was totally encased in winding sheets and entombed (Jn > 19:38-42).

     If you want to use the "shroud of Turin" as your proof here, I’ll remind you that DEAD MEN DON’T BLEED.  Otherwise, the fact that the body was shrouded offers no proof of anything other than shrouding. He wasnt wound and sealed like a mummy. > (5) The post-resurrection appearances convinced the disciples, even > "doubting Thomas," that Jesus was gloriously alive (Jn 20:19-29). It > is psychologically impossible for the disciples to have been so > transformed and confident if Jesus had merely struggled out of a > swoon, badly in need of a doctor. A half-dead, staggering sick man who > has just had a narrow escape is not worshiped fearlessly as divine > lord and conquerer of death.

     Who said he was badly in need of a doctor.  The cold of the tomb would have helped stop the flow of blood and aid in preserving what life there was until, after a day and a half’s rest, he was well enough to get up. > (6) How were the Roman guards at the tomb overpowered by a swooning > corpse? Or by unarmed disciples? And if the disciples did it, they > knowingly lied when they wrote the Gospels, and we are into the > conspiracy theory, which we will refute shortly.

     The guards probably didn’t need to be overcome as I’ll explain below. > (7) How could a swooning half-dead man have moved the great stone at > the door of the tomb? Who moved the stone if not an angel? No one has > ever answered that question. Neither the Jews nor the Romans would > move it, for it was in both their interests to keep the tomb sealed, > the Jews had the stone put there in the first place, and the Roman > guards would be killed if they let the body "escape."

     In a word, adrenelin.  It makes 10-year-olds lift cars off of injured parents and vice-versa.  The stone was intended to roll back and forth anyway. > The story the Jewish authorities spread, that the guards fell asleep > and the disciples stole the body (Mt 28:11-15), is unbelievable. Roman > guards would not fall asleep on a job like that; if they did, they > would lose their lives. And even if they did fall asleep, the crowd > and the effort and the noise it would have taken to move an enormous > boulder would have wakened them. Furthermore, we are again into the > conspiracy theory, with all its unanswerable difficulties (see next > section).

    Oh it’s believable alright.  You might think that the guards were fine upstanding citizens.  But these were a couple of Roman men, somewhere between the ages of 18 and 40, that had been instructed to guard a dead body.  What a doddle.  I can hear it now, "Come on Flavius, grab that wine and we’ll party all weekend.  We’re guarding a dead man in the middle of a cemetery that will be empty for at least 24 hours.  We can get SOOOO blitzed and NO ONE will ever know."  So they were probably not only asleep but in a drunken stupor.  No need to worry about them, they didn’t see anything or hear anything whatsoever.  We never heard what became of the guards either.  Maybe they were severly punished. > (8) If Jesus awoke from a swoon, where did he go? Think this through: > you have a living body to deal with now, not a dead one. Why did it > disappear? There is absolutely no data, not even any false, fantastic, > imagined data, about Jesus’ life after his crucifixion, in any > sources, friend or foe, at any time, early or late. A man like that, > with a past like that, would have left traces.

First place he goes is to get some robes off someone’s washline that they won’t be going anywhere near during the Sabbath.  Then, he can go wherever he likes.  Like back to the cemetery in the morning to see if anyone comes for him, "Just wait until I see their faces!!" > (9) Most simply, the swoon theory necessarily turns into the > conspiracy theory or the hallucination theory, for the disciples > testified that Jesus did not swoon but really died and really rose.

     The swoon theory turns into the most likely scenario as it accounts for everything, including why he only lasted about 40 days afterwards.  Just long enough for a decent infection to have taken him out subsequently.  Forcing the disciples to bury him or

… read more »

Response:

oh…@hotmail.com (ohoe) wrote in news:a5a860fc.0404272053.6330393a@posting.google.com: > EVIDENCE FOR THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST > A Challenge for Skeptics > From chapter 8 of Handbook of Christian Apologetics by Peter > Kreeft/Fr. Ronald Tacelli, SJ (Intervarsity Press, 1994) > A reasonable challenge to the skeptic is this: If it can be proved > that Jesus really rose from the dead, will you believe in him?

It would be reasonable, given such a proof, to believe that "Jesus," whoever or whatever that is, "rose from the dead," by some definition of that phrase.  Such a proof does not, however… > For if > he really rose, that validates his claim to be divine and not merely > human, for resurrection from death is beyond human power;

…prove anything about divinity or… > and his > divinity validates the truth of everything else he said, for God > cannot lie.

…the connection between "Jesus" and "God," or the honesty of "God." <snip laundry list of FUD and fallacies>

Response:

Je$us was the son of a Jew whore. Everyone used to have their way with Mary, she just didn’t want anyone to know, especially her family. So she made up this Je$us story. The imbecile was raised to believe it. Eventually so did alot of other people, the same way they believe in Elvis, Michael Jackson, Princess Diana, etc. The Romans decided this was a good opportunity for them to fuck over the Jews and everyone else, so THE ROMANS CREATED CHRISTIANITY AS WE KNOW IT TODAY, rewrote the original primitive mythology to suit Roman Imperialism AND eliminated any possibility of anyone else claiming the right to Christianity or being the Christ in the process. A great many people will deny this, they will claim Christianity *as we know it today* was written by credible prophets, taken from history. But that is not true, it was written to seem that way, just as HP Lovecroft, Tolkein, Robert E. Howard and dozens of other authors invent "historical" mythologies to back their stories. It is plagiarized, edited a dozen times, and today is even more convoluted than it ever was. There is nothing "Christian" about Christianity today. This Roman scheme worked for a while, until the Muslims figured out that anyone could come up with a national religion like this and use it as an instrument of conquest. Rome, the Jews, the Muslims all eventually lost, but the War of Lies continues to this day as they continue to struggle to regain power and once again impose an Age of Darkness upon the Earth. How do I know all this? I was there. I am the last Jedi Master. Osama Bin Kenobi, Father of the Bastard Je$us. I’m the guy that fucked Mary, that rotten whore. P.S. Mel Gibson, you’re a shmuck. — –==( ֧

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ..and I have come to finish his work. Sadly, I find that I now believe more of the Bible than I did when I was a Christian. There is no way the similarities between Bush and what the Bible calls the antichrist can be coincidence. – theoneflasehaddock That’s not a biblical thing really, more Nostradarmus…  and the Anti Christ could have been Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, and a dozen other power hungry maniacs. The problem is we produce these control freaks, and then put them into power. I think any leader of any country should have to go through a psychiatric evaluation before they are allowed to take office,  Neither Bush nor Blair would have passed such an evaluation

Actually, I think that’s an excellent idea, and I’m surprised that that hasn’t become the way of things. It should. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– Hash: SHA1

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ..and I have come to finish his work. Sadly, I find that I now believe more of the Bible than I did when I was a Christian. There is no way the similarities between Bush and what the Bible calls the antichrist can be coincidence. – theoneflasehaddock That’s not a biblical thing really, more Nostradarmus…  and the Anti Christ could have been Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, and a dozen other power hungry maniacs. The problem is we produce these control freaks, and then put them into power. I think any leader of any country should have to go through a psychiatric evaluation before they are allowed to take office,  Neither Bush nor Blair would have passed such an evaluation Actually, I think that’s an excellent idea, and I’m surprised that that hasn’t become the way of things. It should.

I agree wholeheartedly.  Of course, you’d have to be insane to want to be President or equivalent anyway.  :^P Love & Laughter, Nightshade Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. – –Blaise Pascal —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: PGP 8.0.3 – not licensed for commercial use: www.pgp.com iQA/AwUBQH1yibyFfimF6aGjEQKBRACfa1ZiXNi/AFLqXgV5yGNXliojqRYAoPre Rzzvkyg/4Vw/k4JywHySEAMZ =+OoM —–END PGP SIGNATURE—–

Response:

Sadly, I find that I now believe more of the Bible than I did when I was a Christian. There is no way the similarities between Bush and what the Bible calls the antichrist can be coincidence.

That is because although the Bible is a mythical book like any other book, early Christian writers practiced a magickal technique called "spirit vision" or "being in the spirit". Indeed they did predict the decline of the Christian religion. They also predicted the man who would hurt the reputation of Christianity more than any man since Paul? Heh. Yeah, that woman hater, Paul. The second Anti-Christ to do the most damage to those Christians would be none other than — Mel Gibson. Ha, ha, ha.

Response:

It won’t be the same, after all the damage parseley did.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ..and I have come to finish his work. Get on with it then! P Turns up when the xians have pretty much done it themselves, but he always was a lazy git hmmm.. I thought Parse said he had run him off?  :-) I’m not Parse anymore, though. Also, I took it back, so that he could return. Gosh, I think I did a ping about it, even. *shrug* ren was always more popular, but I doubt anyone’s going to believe in him now. Except for the faithful followers, of course .. Jani

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – —–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– Hash: SHA1 ..and I have come to finish his work. Sadly, I find that I now believe more of the Bible than I did when I was a Christian. There is no way the similarities between Bush and what the Bible calls the antichrist can be coincidence. – theoneflasehaddock That’s not a biblical thing really, more Nostradarmus…  and the Anti Christ could have been Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, and a dozen other power hungry maniacs. The problem is we produce these control freaks, and then put them into power. I think any leader of any country should have to go through a psychiatric evaluation before they are allowed to take office,  Neither Bush nor Blair would have passed such an evaluation Actually, I think that’s an excellent idea, and I’m surprised that that hasn’t become the way of things. It should. I agree wholeheartedly.  Of course, you’d have to be insane to want to be President or equivalent anyway.  :^P

Heh, true enough. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Love & Laughter, Nightshade Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. – –Blaise Pascal —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: PGP 8.0.3 – not licensed for commercial use: www.pgp.com iQA/AwUBQH1yibyFfimF6aGjEQKBRACfa1ZiXNi/AFLqXgV5yGNXliojqRYAoPre Rzzvkyg/4Vw/k4JywHySEAMZ =+OoM —–END PGP SIGNATURE—–

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ..and I have come to finish his work. Get on with it then! P Turns up when the xians have pretty much done it themselves, but he always was a lazy git hmmm.. I thought Parse said he had run him off?  :-) I’m not Parse anymore, though. hehehe.. so, who are you now? Hyuuga Neji, genius ninja of Konoha.

hehe.. too much of a mouthful,  I’ll stick with using Parse. Also, I took it back, so that he could return. Gosh, I think I did a ping about it, even. hmmm.. mustamissedit.. It was many moons ago. I did it in a fit of gas.

Asyado.. P

Response:

So did Jack Parsons. Two Crows

That is one of the reasons I’m here.

Response:

..and I have come to finish his work.

Sadly, I find that I now believe more of the Bible than I did when I was a Christian. There is no way the similarities between Bush and what the Bible calls the antichrist can be coincidence. – theoneflasehaddock

Response:

*yawn*. You resurrect ren, and this is all we get? 9_9 You’ve been "parse – ing" too long….. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ..and I have come to finish his work.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ..and I have come to finish his work. Sadly, I find that I now believe more of the Bible than I did when I was a Christian. There is no way the similarities between Bush and what the Bible calls the antichrist can be coincidence. – theoneflasehaddock

That’s not a biblical thing really, more Nostradarmus…  and the Anti Christ could have been Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, and a dozen other power hungry maniacs. The problem is we produce these control freaks, and then put them into power. I think any leader of any country should have to go through a psychiatric evaluation before they are allowed to take office,  Neither Bush nor Blair would have passed such an evaluation — Shez’s Garden at http://www.oldcity.f2s.com/shez/

Response:

..and I have come to finish his work.

So did Jack Parsons. The Black Brotherhood isn’t just within the walls of that old institution. We all too easily become that which we hate. En To Pan! Two Crows

Response:

Aint that the truth.. P

<snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We all too easily become that which we hate. En To Pan! Two Crows

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ..and I have come to finish his work. Get on with it then! P Turns up when the xians have pretty much done it themselves, but he always was a lazy git hmmm.. I thought Parse said he had run him off?  :-) P

While "parse-neji" enjoys making false claims as much as tales and Blenda do, which "ren" is it that’s back? TN

Response:

..and I have come to finish his work. Get on with it then!

Well I guess Spaceman and the other idiot will now stop posting since ren has come to take his socks back. P

– Shez’s Garden at http://www.oldcity.f2s.com/shez/

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ..and I have come to finish his work. Get on with it then! P Turns up when the xians have pretty much done it themselves, but he always was a lazy git hmmm.. I thought Parse said he had run him off?  :-) P While "parse-neji" enjoys making false claims as much as tales and Blenda do, which "ren" is it that’s back? TN

Heh!… good question.. P

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ..and I have come to finish his work. Get on with it then! P Turns up when the xians have pretty much done it themselves, but he always was a lazy git hmmm.. I thought Parse said he had run him off?  :-)

I’m not Parse anymore, though. Also, I took it back, so that he could return. Gosh, I think I did a ping about it, even.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ..and I have come to finish his work. Get on with it then! P Turns up when the xians have pretty much done it themselves, but he always was a lazy git hmmm.. I thought Parse said he had run him off?  :-) I’m not Parse anymore, though.

hehehe.. so, who are you now? Also, I took it back, so that he could return. Gosh, I think I did a ping about it, even.

hmmm.. mustamissedit.. P

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ..and I have come to finish his work. Get on with it then! P Turns up when the xians have pretty much done it themselves, but he always was a lazy git hmmm.. I thought Parse said he had run him off?  :-) I’m not Parse anymore, though. Also, I took it back, so that he could return. Gosh, I think I did a ping about it, even.

*shrug* ren was always more popular, but I doubt anyone’s going to believe in him now. Except for the faithful followers, of course .. Jani

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ..and I have come to finish his work. Get on with it then! P Turns up when the xians have pretty much done it themselves, but he always was a lazy git hmmm.. I thought Parse said he had run him off?  :-) I’m not Parse anymore, though. hehehe.. so, who are you now?

Hyuuga Neji, genius ninja of Konoha. Also, I took it back, so that he could return. Gosh, I think I did a ping about it, even. hmmm.. mustamissedit..

It was many moons ago. I did it in a fit of gas.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ..and I have come to finish his work. Get on with it then! P Turns up when the xians have pretty much done it themselves, but he always was a lazy git hmmm.. I thought Parse said he had run him off?  :-) I’m not Parse anymore, though. Also, I took it back, so that he could return. Gosh, I think I did a ping about it, even. *shrug* ren was always more popular,

Not really. People like to say this now and hope that it’s retroactive, but there were quite a large number of posts from people saying that they preferred Parse. but I doubt anyone’s going to believe in him now. Except for the faithful followers, of course ..

You and AK?

Response:

..and I have come to finish his work.

Response:

..and I have come to finish his work.

Get on with it then! P

Response:

..and I have come to finish his work. Get on with it then! P

Turns up when the xians have pretty much done it themselves, but he always was a lazy git Jani

Response:

..and I have come to finish his work. Get on with it then! P Turns up when the xians have pretty much done it themselves, but he always was a lazy git

hmmm.. I thought Parse said he had run him off?  :-) P

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ..and I have come to finish his work. Get on with it then! P Turns up when the xians have pretty much done it themselves, but he always was a lazy git hmmm.. I thought Parse said he had run him off?  :-) P

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: alt.prophecies.nostradamus, alt.alien.visitors, alt.survival It seems there is more chatter about the black wind. There is a mood that another attack will happen before 1109 or Nov. 11. Timed for the US election. A scary tactic after the Spain Train bombings. What are your feelings about the Black wind Threat. Here is an old post on the topic: quote Newsgroups: alt.prophecies.nostradamus X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.65.180.23 X-Trace: sv3-wGVgGl91KWTrVtfRXosMnvaqpvz3AA5GTz835zcuSvFJhDF5yi5iwmfFKHzc/6DQqyzGT

HBnsDHqlnz!6VySMeHtVy7DPo5r2gKkCduMNg3+mt2mBJIJn9HHa4tXyTYVzh7eVJ53cMPLeBh EOVxAG2niUJQw!a4kr – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 the bombings in Madrid. And a day after Osamma’s birthday, so what? So it’s probably Al Queda as opposed to ETA.  It’s also probably Al Queda because, apparently, ETA targets police and if they do target civilians they warn law enforcement ahead of time. Man, paranoia is running rampant in America now isin’t it? Hahahahahah. Especially after the "Al Queda" letter to Al Hayaat mentioned the coming of the black wind of death, I believe it was, that’s coming to America. They said it was 90% in place and could come to a country very near you very soon. Tell me, Daark.  If something horrible happens here, if the reports of pre-planted suitcase nukes turns out to be true, will you be laughing at us after it "goes off"?  Al Hayaat published a report recently that quoted a member of the Al Queda hierarchy as saying they’ve got 8 nukes planted in America already and will only set them off if the suffer a harsh blow.  I was looking for follow-up confirmation of this but didn’t see any. end quote

http://www.lampholderpub.com/new_page_19.htm caveat lector Halcitron             misc.survivalism      alt.survival "Failing to prepare…. Is preparing to fail." NRA Member since 2002 The Law of the Land, is the weapon in your hand. Smith & Wesson starts where the Bill of Rights stop.

Response:

It seems there is more chatter about the black wind. There is a mood that another attack will happen before 1109 or Nov. 11. Timed for the US election. A scary tactic after the Spain Train bombings. What are your feelings about the Black wind Threat. Here is an old post on the topic: quote Newsgroups: alt.prophecies.nostradamus X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.65.180.23 X-Trace: sv3-wGVgGl91KWTrVtfRXosMnvaqpvz3AA5GTz835zcuSvFJhDF5yi5iwmfFKHzc/6DQqyzGTHB nsDHqlnz!6VySMeHtVy7DPo5r2gKkCduMNg3+mt2mBJIJn9HHa4tXyTYVzh7eVJ53cMPLeBhEOV xAG2niUJQw!a4kr X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1

the bombings in Madrid. And a day after Osamma’s birthday, so what?

So it’s probably Al Queda as opposed to ETA.  It’s also probably Al Queda because, apparently, ETA targets police and if they do target civilians they warn law enforcement ahead of time. Man, paranoia is running rampant in America now isin’t it? Hahahahahah.

Especially after the "Al Queda" letter to Al Hayaat mentioned the coming of the black wind of death, I believe it was, that’s coming to America. They said it was 90% in place and could come to a country very near you very soon. Tell me, Daark.  If something horrible happens here, if the reports of pre-planted suitcase nukes turns out to be true, will you be laughing at us after it "goes off"?  Al Hayaat published a report recently that quoted a member of the Al Queda hierarchy as saying they’ve got 8 nukes planted in America already and will only set them off if the suffer a harsh blow.   I was looking for follow-up confirmation of this but didn’t see any. end quote

Response:

It seems there is more chatter about the black wind. There is a mood that another attack will happen before 1109 or Nov. 11. Timed for the US election. A scary tactic after the Spain Train bombings. What are your feelings about the Black wind Threat. If we reject God and embrace things like same sex marriage then we will most certainly suffer. The breaking point imho will be if we elect that flaming liberal Kerry. People forget this country was founded on religion. If you read the writings of George Washington and Ben Franklin they sound like religious nuts! Bummer, i thought this country was founded on freedom from religion!

You were misinformed.  The Constitution simply states that Congress make no laws in preference of any religion. Nothing more. Nothing less. Note that, upon ratification of the Constitution, Congress declared a national day of prayer.   Strider

Response:

It seems there is more chatter about the black wind. There is a mood that another attack will happen before 1109 or Nov. 11. Timed for the US election. A scary tactic after the Spain Train bombings. What are your feelings about the Black wind Threat. If we reject God and embrace things like same sex marriage then we will most certainly suffer. The breaking point imho will be if we elect that flaming liberal Kerry. People forget this country was founded on religion. If you read the writings of George Washington and Ben Franklin they sound like religious nuts!

Bummer, i thought this country was founded on freedom from religion!

Response:

A "shattering" that will be physical, psychological, spiritual in nature coming to this country by the time of the elections.  I’m not prepared yet to say it’s the actual fulfillment of Rev. 8:23, perhaps only a type.

My mistake on the scripture reference.  Revelation 18:23 Rev. 18:23 (NLT)     Her nights will be dark, without a single lamp. There will be no happy voices of brides and grooms. This will happen because her merchants, who were the greatest in the world, deceived the nations with her sorceries.

Response:

It seems there is more chatter about the black wind. There is a mood that another attack will happen before 1109 or Nov. 11. Timed for the US election. A scary tactic after the Spain Train bombings. What are your feelings about the Black wind Threat. If we reject God and embrace things like same sex marriage then we will most certainly suffer. The breaking point imho will be if we elect that flaming liberal Kerry. People forget this country was founded on religion.

Which religion would that be? If you read the writings of George Washington and Ben Franklin they sound like religious nuts!

They sound like spiritual, rather than religious, men. S~

Response:

It seems there is more chatter about the black wind. There is a mood that another attack will happen before 1109 or Nov. 11. Timed for the US election. A scary tactic after the Spain Train bombings. What are your feelings about the Black wind Threat.

If we reject God and embrace things like same sex marriage then we will most certainly suffer. The breaking point imho will be if we elect that flaming liberal Kerry. People forget this country was founded on religion. If you read the writings of George Washington and Ben Franklin they sound like religious nuts!

Response:

It seems there is more chatter about the black wind. There is a mood that another attack will happen before 1109 or Nov. 11. Timed for the US election. A scary tactic after the Spain Train bombings. What are your feelings about the Black wind Threat.

I’m not going to say thus sayeth the Lord on this. A "shattering" that will be physical, psychological, spiritual in nature coming to this country by the time of the elections.  I’m not prepared yet to say it’s the actual fulfillment of Rev. 8:23, perhaps only a type.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It seems there is more chatter about the black wind. There is a mood that another attack will happen before 1109 or Nov. 11. Timed for the US election. A scary tactic after the Spain Train bombings. What are your feelings about the Black wind Threat. If we reject God and embrace things like same sex marriage then we will most certainly suffer. The breaking point imho will be if we elect that flaming liberal Kerry. People forget this country was founded on religion. If you read the writings of George Washington and Ben Franklin they sound like religious nuts! Bummer, i thought this country was founded on freedom from religion!

Is that what they’re teaching in public schools now?!? No, it was freedom OF religion.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Note that, upon ratification of the Constitution, Congress declared a national day of prayer.   When the Columbine duo went into "go" mode, most of the students that got shot were the ones who stopped to kneel and pray. Much easier to target someone who isn’t running in panic.<g Nature gave people three important things. A fight reaction, a flight reaction, and a stupid reaction.  Modern science named the latter "Darwinism". Strider

Gee. I thought Nature gave us food and fresh air and fresh water and building materials and a facility for technology and all sorts of fascinating creatures to keep us company… The wind and the rain and the thunder   the soil and the sun and the moon… Flowers and birds, dancing and song. Spring, Summer, Autumn and Winter The forests, mountains, skies, lakes and oceans and prairies… The heaven in my lover’s eyes and between her thighs. Beauty beyond description or comprehension. AC

Response:

Note that, upon ratification of the Constitution, Congress declared a national day of prayer.   When the Columbine duo went into "go" mode, most of the students that got shot were the ones who stopped to kneel and pray. Much easier to target someone who isn’t running in panic.<g

Nature gave people three important things. A fight reaction, a flight reaction, and a stupid reaction.  Modern science named the latter "Darwinism". Strider

Response:

It seems there is more chatter about the black wind. There is a mood that another attack will happen before 1109 or Nov. 11. Timed for the US election. A scary tactic after the Spain Train bombings. What are your feelings about the Black wind Threat. If we reject God and embrace things like same sex marriage then we will most certainly suffer. The breaking point imho will be if we elect that flaming liberal Kerry. People forget this country was founded on religion. If you read the writings of George Washington and Ben Franklin they sound like religious nuts!

How absolutely wrong you are. . .read the Treaty of Tripoli to hear it from one of the Founding Fathers. . . http://www.museumstuff.com/articles/ar187051062241851.html ARTICLE 11 – As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. HTH Garry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Freedom is a dual edged sword that cuts both ways. Truth is freedom.

False. There is truth and there is fact. It is true that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. The fact is that the earth rotates so the sun appears to rise in the east and set in the west. Freedom is based on liberty. There are four types of liberty: natural, personal, civil and political. The first two are the liberties that Patrick Henry spoke of when he said "Give me liberty or give me death". The latter two are permissions from government. All liberties are "freedom" to do something, somewhere. But they aren’t based on "truth" but upon facts. Ergo, truth is not freedom. Though the truth may set one free… I personally am rather pleased that prayer is banned from our schools. As am I and there’s a reason.  Earth religions are loosely based by human misinterpretation of extraterrestrial contact.

You fail to include transdimensionals, incorporeals, and alternate universe intelligences in your reasoning. Christianity, which is the basis of Dubya’s fanatical religious believes is really a misinterpretation of a war between the Martians and the greys over Earth.

I thought we were the martians? That’s what India’s Mahabharata refers to the light skinned "Aryans" (Arya=Ares=Mars) coming from the heavens in their sky chariots. And isn’t it true that the human circadian rhythm closely matches the daily rotation on Mars? And that on Mars, human eyes can look directly at the sun without pain nor blinking? And that humans would find that running on one’s toes is more efficient than walking on the surface of Mars. The Martians created earth as a slave colony for their genetically engineered slaves and the Martians were regarded by earthlings as the Gods.

Nope. The Aryans invaded and drove out the dark skinned people from north India. The greys interceded

Did not. They are not individuals. They are controlled by dominant minds, even non-greys snag greys for their own purposes. and annihilated the Martian race, freeing Earth.

Nope. The greys were regarded as ‘angels’ by earthlings,

No way, buddy. The greys were always regarded as the little nasty folks like trolls, gremlins, leprechauns, puck wudgies, little people, etc., etc. Angels were humanoid shaped messengers. who had been totally oblivious to the fact that earth was a slave colony.

Earth is a retirement home for Astral trailer trash…

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Freedom is a dual edged sword that cuts both ways. Truth is freedom. I personally am rather pleased that prayer is banned from our schools. As am I and there’s a reason.  Earth religions are loosely based by human misinterpretation of extraterrestrial contact.  Christianity, which is the basis of Dubya’s fanatical religious believes is really a misinterpretation of a war between the Martians and the greys over Earth.  The Martians created earth as a slave colony for their genetically engineered slaves and the Martians were regarded by earthlings as the Gods.  The greys interceded and annihilated the Martian race, freeing Earth.  The greys were regarded as ‘angels’ by earthlings, who had been totally oblivious to the fact that earth was a slave colony.

Oh, and you think that Bush has a weird religion. Strider

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Freedom is a dual edged sword that cuts both ways. Truth is freedom. I personally am rather pleased that prayer is banned from our schools. As am I and there’s a reason.  Earth religions are loosely based by human misinterpretation of extraterrestrial contact.  Christianity, which is the basis of Dubya’s fanatical religious believes is really a misinterpretation of a war between the Martians and the greys over Earth.  The Martians created earth as a slave colony for their genetically engineered slaves and the Martians were regarded by earthlings as the Gods.  The greys interceded and annihilated the Martian race, freeing Earth.  The greys were regarded as ‘angels’ by earthlings, who had been totally oblivious to the fact that earth was a slave colony.

And history is repeating itself.

Response:

Freedom is a dual edged sword that cuts both ways.

Truth is freedom. I personally am rather pleased that prayer is banned from our schools.

As am I and there’s a reason.  Earth religions are loosely based by human misinterpretation of extraterrestrial contact.  Christianity, which is the basis of Dubya’s fanatical religious believes is really a misinterpretation of a war between the Martians and the greys over Earth.  The Martians created earth as a slave colony for their genetically engineered slaves and the Martians were regarded by earthlings as the Gods.  The greys interceded and annihilated the Martian race, freeing Earth.  The greys were regarded as ‘angels’ by earthlings, who had been totally oblivious to the fact that earth was a slave colony.

Response:

see below, strider:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ***snip*** Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. Sorry BOB. Freedom FROM religion. Ray How did you come to that conclusion? "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

I take it to mean that Congress, meaning the federal government cannot force anyone, and that includes me, to even HAVE a religion. Inversely, they cannot prevent anyone from having a religion, no matter how bizarre its rituals, including animal sacrifice and drinking blood. If you read this to mean that "free exercise" implies that Congress cannot make laws forcing me to church, I agree. If you think that this means public expression of religion is prohibited, then you are most certainly wrong.  Any means of prohibiting public expression of religion would require Congress to "make law", which is specifically prohibited by this amendment. Agreed. Tho, to prevent ‘christians’ from being exposed to some bizarre

religious practices in our school systems and any other public place, STATE constitutions do address the matter. Remember the 10th amendment? ‘Rights no speficically granted to the federal constitution remain the right of the states’ Freedom is a dual edged sword that cuts both ways. I personally am rather pleased that prayer is banned from our schools. Ray

Response:

***snip*** Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. Sorry BOB. Freedom FROM religion. Ray

How did you come to that conclusion? "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" If you read this to mean that "free exercise" implies that Congress cannot make laws forcing me to church, I agree. If you think that this means public expression of religion is prohibited, then you are most certainly wrong.  Any means of prohibiting public expression of religion would require Congress to "make law", which is specifically prohibited by this amendment. Strider

Response:

see below:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It seems there is more chatter about the black wind. There is a mood that another attack will happen before 1109 or Nov. 11. Timed for the US election. A scary tactic after the Spain Train bombings. What are your feelings about the Black wind Threat. If we reject God and embrace things like same sex marriage then we will most certainly suffer. The breaking point imho will be if we elect that flaming liberal Kerry. People forget this country was founded on religion. If you read the writings of George Washington and Ben Franklin they sound like religious nuts! Bummer, i thought this country was founded on freedom from religion! Negative. Correctly stated: Freedom of Religion…. not Freedom From Religion…. B-o-B

Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. Sorry BOB. Freedom FROM religion. Ray

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It seems there is more chatter about the black wind. There is a mood that another attack will happen before 1109 or Nov. 11. Timed for the US election. A scary tactic after the Spain Train bombings. What are your feelings about the Black wind Threat. If we reject God and embrace things like same sex marriage then we will most certainly suffer. The breaking point imho will be if we elect that flaming liberal Kerry. People forget this country was founded on religion. Which religion would that be? Freemasonry…

is not a religion, and certainly isnt the religion of the original poster who wants to force his religious beliefs onto the rest of the country.  Notice the equation of same sex marriage to rejection of God. S~

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It seems there is more chatter about the black wind. There is a mood that another attack will happen before 1109 or Nov. 11. Timed for the US election. A scary tactic after the Spain Train bombings. What are your feelings about the Black wind Threat. If we reject God and embrace things like same sex marriage then we will most certainly suffer. The breaking point imho will be if we elect that flaming liberal Kerry. People forget this country was founded on religion. If you read the writings of George Washington and Ben Franklin they sound like religious nuts! Bummer, i thought this country was founded on freedom from religion!

Negative. Correctly stated: Freedom of Religion…. not Freedom From Religion…. B-o-B — http://b-o-b.homelinux.com West Longitude 90′ 15′ 43"

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It seems there is more chatter about the black wind. There is a mood that another attack will happen before 1109 or Nov. 11. Timed for the US election. A scary tactic after the Spain Train bombings. What are your feelings about the Black wind Threat. If we reject God and embrace things like same sex marriage then we will most certainly suffer. The breaking point imho will be if we elect that flaming liberal Kerry. People forget this country was founded on religion. If you read the writings of George Washington and Ben Franklin they sound like religious nuts! Bummer, i thought this country was founded on freedom from religion! Is that what they’re teaching in public schools now?!? No, it was freedom OF religion.

Thank you mr Noid.  I would still check the ‘freedom from religion’ box considering the ‘effed up state of the world because OF religion.

Response:

It seems there is more chatter about the black wind. There is a mood that another attack will happen before 1109 or Nov. 11. Timed for the US election. A scary tactic after the Spain Train bombings. What are your feelings about the Black wind Threat. If we reject God and embrace things like same sex marriage then we will most certainly suffer. The breaking point imho will be if we elect that flaming liberal Kerry. People forget this country was founded on religion. Which religion would that be?

Freemasonry.

Response:

Question:

PART V                 CEREMONIAL DEISM PROTECTS THE REMNANTS OF                     THE DE FACTO ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIGION There are world leaders in other countries that tell us we don’t even live up to our own ideal of church state separation so long as we have things like "ceremonial deism" that are hold overs from our de facto establishment of Protestant Christianity at times in the 1800s that we refuse to declare them unconstitutional which in fact they are, and we have things like Chaplains in Congress etc. HOW UNITED STATES CHURCH-STATE RELATIONS PLAY ON THE WORLD STAGE By MARCI HAMILTON http://writ.news.findlaw.com/hamilton/20010705.html [EXCERPT] What the European Professors Had to Say About Our Application of James Madison’s Theory For example, two professors came to me after my talk, in which I discussed James Madison’s devotion to the concept of separation of church and state. They thought that Madison’s theory was all well and good, but they believed that it was obsolete; the United States, they claimed, had long ago decided to adopt an established church. Our actions, they said, speak louder than our words.         As I shook my head vigorously, thinking we had a language barrier between us, they pulled out their prime proof: legislative chaplains