Christianity QA

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That version of the so called Jefferson Testement was edited by Christian ministers after Jefferson’s death. Unless you have an original in which case you are a wealthy fellow. It’s not that important to me, but I must say, I do have a little bit of a problem with your claim above. Jefferson did have family that survived him, and I would assume that his writings would have remained in the family. But at any rate, it really seems something akin to our obessions to think that any such writings as theis would have been so disturbing to people, that they would have actually changed, or even edited it to leave out all they were threatened by before publication. I do believe he shared his thougts and perhaps his finished writing on the subject during his lifetime. Ah well. perhaps you are right. Jim. Are you familiar with Parson Weems? He single handedly created the "George Washington chopped down the cherry tree" myth and many others after Washington’s death. Jefferson suffer the same fate shortly after his death.     Voltaire

Response:

Jim. Are you familiar with Parson Weems? He single handedly created the "George Washington chopped down the cherry tree" myth and many others after Washington’s death. Jefferson suffer the same fate shortly after his death.     Voltaire

No. I have not heard of him. I do have original copies of "The Writings of Thomas Jefferson" By his grandson, Thomas Jefferson Randolph published in 1829, and they were not edited. There are plenty of "non Christion" comments in those books. No the books are not mine to keep, but are on loan to me. Being a book lover, I am somewhat in awe of holding in my hands books that are only about 3 years short of being 170 years old. I do handle with the upmost care. Jim

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This nation was not founded on any religion or "God." It was founded by good God Fearing Church attending men.  Look at the Declareation of Independence for this proof. Jim

There sure does seem to be a rash of people suddendly showing up here who are in love with the DOI. Guess these things go in cycles. Ok, I looked at the DOI, however, I don’t see where it proves your claims at all. First of the the DOI is not the Law of this land, secondly, you have not proved that these men were either God fearing, or Church attending. The DOI sure doesn’t prove either of those claims. You do know of course that the DOI was written by oine group of men in 1776 for a specific reason and purpose. In 1787 a different set of men wrote the Constitution for a different reason and purpose, and in 1789, a somewhat different group of men wrote the Bill of Rights for yet another reason and purpose, though it is true the reason was olny a little different than the reason for the Constitution. The DOI has little if anyhting to do with the latter two documents, and it was the latter two sets of documents that are the law of the land. Jim

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Thomas Jefferson, our greatest president, was not a believer in God. However, he knew that Christian Charity required that all non believers be crucified, so he kept quite about it. Read his version of the Bible.

Huh? Any rating of presidents done this century lists Lincoln as the top president. Jefferson did belief in a God, just not the one usually identified by the usual Christian Doctrines and Dogmas of his day. I have his version of the gospels and I must have missed it, but don’t see anyhting about what you claim concerning it. Jim

Response:

Thomas Jefferson, our greatest president, was not a believer in God. However, he knew that Christian Charity required that all non believers be crucified, so he kept quite about it. Read his version of the Bible. Huh? Any rating of presidents done this century lists Lincoln as the top president.

Very true. Lincoln happens to have been a real atheist and not a deist. Jefferson did belief in a God, just not the one usually identified by the usual Christian Doctrines and Dogmas of his day. I have his version of the gospels and I must have missed it, but don’t see anyhting about what you claim concerning it.

That version of the so called Jefferson Testement was edited by Christian ministers after Jefferson’s death. Unless you have an original in which case you are a wealthy fellow.

Response:

Thomas Jefferson, our greatest president, was not a believer in God. However, he knew that Christian Charity required that all non believers be crucified, so he kept quite about it. Read his version of the Bible. Huh? Any rating of presidents done this century lists Lincoln as the top president.

Lincoln was a federalist, and caused the Civil war. I mean, how bad does bad have to be? He burned and destroyed half the country. Greatest? I hardly think so. He didn’t even understand the federal system of government that he was President of. Nope, Jefferson was the greatest President. He understood freedom and how a republic could work. Jefferson did belief in a God, just not the one usually identified by the usual Christian Doctrines and Dogmas of his day. I have his version of the gospels and I must have missed it, but don’t see anyhting about what you claim concerning it.

Ah, the Jefferson "Bible". He threw out everything that didn’t make sense, was illogical, miraculous, or superstitious. What was it? More of a pamphlet than a book. Jim

– — Steve La Joie    

Response:

That version of the so called Jefferson Testement was edited by Christian ministers after Jefferson’s death. Unless you have an original in which case you are a wealthy fellow.

It’s not that important to me, but I must say, I do have a little bit of a problem with your claim above. Jefferson did have family that survived him, and I would assume that his writings would have remained in the family. But at any rate, it really seems something akin to our obessions to think that any such writings as theis would have been so disturbing to people, that they would have actually changed, or even edited it to leave out all they were threatened by before publication. I do believe he shared his thougts and perhaps his finished writing on the subject during his lifetime. Ah well. perhaps you are right. Jim

Response:

Lincoln was a federalist, and caused the Civil war. I mean, how bad does bad have to be? He burned and destroyed half the country. Greatest? I hardly think so. He didn’t even understand the federal system of government that he was President of.

Ok, thats your opinion. I was referring to several different ratings done over some 50 years or so, by various different historical societies. I think I will go along with those over your opinion. Ah, the Jefferson "Bible". He threw out everything that didn’t make sense, was illogical, miraculous, or superstitious. What was it? More of a pamphlet than a book.

So? I think that a vast majority of publications of that period would, by today’s standards, be considered pamphlets. Books of War & Peace size were still a minority. Jim

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That version of the so called Jefferson Testement was edited by Christian ministers after Jefferson’s death. Unless you have an original in which case you are a wealthy fellow. It’s not that important to me, but I must say, I do have a little bit of a problem with your claim above. Jefferson did have family that survived him, and I would assume that his writings would have remained in the family. But at any rate, it really seems something akin to our obessions to think that any such writings as theis would have been so disturbing to people, that they would have actually changed, or even edited it to leave out all they were threatened by before publication. I do believe he shared his thougts and perhaps his finished writing on the subject during his lifetime. Ah well. perhaps you are right.

Jim. Are you familiar with Parson Weems? He single handedly created the "George Washington chopped down the cherry tree" myth and many others after Washington’s death. Jefferson suffer the same fate shortly after his death.      Voltaire

Response:

Well, Thomas Paine was an atheist. And Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were both deists. Not exactly what you’d call ‘Christian’ by most definitions.

Paine was a Deist. Care to provide evidence that this nation was founded on Christ? I serioulsy doubt that you can provide any such evidence that would stand up to rigorious examination, becasue it just isn’t  true. This nation was not founded on any religion or "God." I’m afraid that I’d have to differ on this one, though. There is a definite Judeo-Christian influence all through the Declaration of Indepence for one, and in our basic code of laws. Not too mention the educational material used in schools for generations, or in such institutions as the chaplains in both the House of Representatives and Senate. Jim

Let’s begin at the beginning. Let’s take the word Judeo-Christian. That word is a rather recent invention. The religious right likes to use it, kinda likes to try to tie the two religions together and make them buddies. The jewish religion was not an acceptable relgion to most in this country during colonial times. (The Jewish religion has not been an acceptable religion to most Fundies throughout history) Jews could not vote nor hold office, and were highly discriminated against.There weren’t many Jews in this country but those that were were not very welcome. The Jewish religion, and the Christian religion are to totally different religions. I understand that many Jews resent the linking of the two words as well. Considering their history at the hands of "Christians" I can’t say I blame them. Next, the DOI is not the legal document of this nation, the Constitution and Bill of Rights are. In addition, the references in the DOI to a creator, etc, are more in line with the thinking of the Enlightment thinkers than anything you will find in the Bible. I read somewhere, that Jefferson had actually "lifted" some of the DOI directly from, might have been Locke, and that there wasn’t anything really new in it. In order to establish that something is a Christian value, doctrine, rule, etc a person would have to establish that that particular concept or thought had not existed anywhere on earth, in any culture, tribe, society prior to Jesus, and that he introduced it to the world.. I say that beciase most political systems, most religions, etc borrow from previous systems, there is at least an evolution of thought and practice inherient in human beings. At the same time many of these systems forget to credit those previous systems of thought, and instead claim the "new ideas" as totally their own. I have seen some who have claimed that such things as bans or rules against not stealing, not killing, etc had never existed prior to the Ten Commandments, which was Jewish law, or some have been so silly as to claim before Jesus. They therefore claim these rules as "Christian Morals" Fact is many of the so called "Christian Morals" existed in some form long before Jesus or even before the Ten Commandments in many cultures. So, when someone says that Christian or even Judeo-Christian rules, laws and thinking are present in our Founding Documents or or laws, I question them. Our government, our laws, our founding documents are a result of human thought evoloving over a great many years. Some of that though may be a result of various different religious thought along the way, it is also the result of various other forms of thought, of trial and error practiced by most every culture that had come before. I don’t think that any one religion or any one culture can claim ownership of the thought and ideas that founded our laws, documents or government. Jim

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