Christianity QA

Question:

Re: awakening  rk:  The word "healthy," means whole, holisitic, balanced, nondualistic,  at-one, complete, sound, nonfragmented.  There are many many words one may use to describe the same directly perceived, unknown "essence" depending on their suitability of vibration at the level of communication.    mp: What do those adjectives describe? Does it mean a healthy ego? A holistic ego? A nondualistic ego? A non-fragmented ego? If that is so, then  what do you mean by an ego? mp:  ego: 1- the self; the individual as self-aware   2- egotism; conceit  3- Philos.  the self, variously conceived as a spiritual substance on which experience is superimposed, the series of acts and mental states introspectively recognized, etc.   mp:  I usually think of "ego" as pointing to some individual or center or "me"  that is dualistic or fragmented by definition. This would then mean you speak about a "non-fragmented fragment or some other type of non-dualistic  dualism. Since that does not make much sense, perhaps you could clarify  your definition of an "ego" that can be healthy so I may understand you  more clearly. rk:  You will never understand Truth by having another define it for you. Your conditioned state of ignorance prevents you from seeing your own perpetuation of the verbal nonsense which  binds you to the intellectual realm of consciousness.  What you and the other pleasure/power seeking TALK ABOUTs of this group presently engage in may be best termed as mental  masturbation. rk:  What part of BASSACKWARDS which "describes" the momentum underlying  your dualistic-based intellectual approach to truth do you not understand?  Unless you are free, do not talk of freedom.  Unless you SEE, do not talk  of understanding.  Drop your theorizing.  Drop the speculation.  Drop the  wild imaginings.  From this moment on  speak only Truth, and nothing else.  I guarantee the world as you now know it will end–at least for you!  Then you will understand the true meaning of the "Second Coming of Christ." mp: I take this as your way of avoiding looking closely at what you are saying. When something gets uncomfortable, then attack, make the other wrong, call them names etc. mp: I am not asking you to define truth for me. I wanted you to clarify what your words point to. This should not be too tough for a man of truth without having to bad mouth a questioner. Truth seems quite prior to all definitions, but that is not what you are saying. You are talking about an unfragmented ego. Our egocentric activities are generally considered fragmented and K speaks of this as do others. He also speaks of the ending of the "me". Perhaps I would express it as a lack of some truly existing independent "me", but in any case are you willing to share with us the meaning of this "ego" that can be healthy or unhealthy? It appears to be quite dualistic and express the same dualistic qualities that you tirelessly denounce. mp:  Can you respond to this without projecting a host of ignorant list members and labeling them this or that? Let go a little. We are friends here. rk:  You just don’t GET IT, do you?  How many times must it be said, "You can’t get there from here"?   That, Michael, is the nature of the ignorance you share with other TALK ABOUTs.  What you express above has  little to do with the coming to atonement in Truth within a dualistic realm of one’s intellect, and much to do with intellectual game playing.  Speak only truth and I will communicate with you to the end of time.  Do as you do NOW and I will only mirror that back to you.                                                   Ray Karczewski  In the illusion based world of man’s thought, there  exist   healthy egos and unhealthy egos –visit my home page and          meet the unhealthy ego’s worst nightmare!    Raymond Karczewski  http://www.cdsnet.net/Business/Ark/

Response:

Re: awakening

Jer: It seems to me that the real question (not verbally expressed) is whether or not Ray is indeed "Awakened". I say ….. what difference does that make? gv: why do you believe that there is a state called "awakened" to be somehow reached by a man or woman? Because other people have said so? If there is no permanent "me" to be found but only passing states, is there someone that awakens? Or is awakening seeing in the moment that there is no separation? And if there is indeed an energetic change when division has stopped, why assume it would mean some kind of infallible clarity? Tom:  Especially since most, if not all, of our emotive though patterns are apparently built upon neurologically wired in affect based reactive programs evolved through life on this planet as a means of protecting the animal organism’s existence.  Thereby the programs can be reactivated again at any time when perceived threat arises and the clarity (silence) diminished. mp: Yes. It would be appropriate, then, to have great compassion for someone who perceives every post as a threat (to a "me") that must be defended by harsh negative labeling that in turn promotes and reactivates more defenses. rk:  Michael, the bottom line question to be asked by go-nowhere, inert TALK ABOUTs stuck in an endless  prison cell loop of speculation and theorizing is, "are the  labels accurate" in their disturbing depiction of the mirrored reactions? mp: Precisely. If you point to that which false as if it were some truth, there will not be much respect for what you point to. To continually affirm the notion of separate beings that are blind or ignorant promotes division and conflict. It does not point to the undivided life that K and others speak of and fosters viewing life from divsion. rk:  A seer meets a thinker.  The seer operates through life predominantly in the mode of direct spiritual sight, but is quite capable of using the thought process of the intellect for technical problem-solving and communication with other instruments of mind. rk:  The Seer is AWARE and flows in the state of AT-ONE-MENT in the nondualistic energy OF What Is, OF Truth, OF Life. AT-ONE-MENT means just that; it flows in the holistic vibration OF infinite intelligence.  It is, as one Brother stated,  "THE TRUTH, THE LIFE, AND THE WAY." rk; The thinker is a Thought Projection of the dead mechanical instrument of intellect and operates at the vibratory level of duality based in time-bound images.  These images are reflections of a timeless, unbounded, unknowable energy quite beyond the ken of the limited thinker.  The thinker therefore navigates through life at the dualistic level of conflicted images and is blind to the nondualistic energies of  WHAT IS.  In other words, the thinker is UNAWARE. rk:  The thinker compensates for the gross limitations in consciousness by reveling in fanciful theories, speculations, judgments, and interpretations of its own parochially conditioned, memory-based images.  In doing so, it thinks itself a god of its own relative world. rk:  The intellect never loses sight that there is something missing, unwhole within itself, and so is caught in the time-bound state of constant becoming, constant achieving.  It tries to assuage the pain of its unwholeness with projections of thought it comes to label and worship as its god. rk:   That, plain and simply, is man’s Fall from Grace.  It is the descent from wholistic direct sight to the indirect, prideful stumbling around of blind men who have been transformed by grand institutions of organized religious thought into codependent slaves in servitude to their own "outer directed" thoughts. That, Michael, Jer, GV, and Tom is as good a definition of HELL as you will ever get. rk:  The thinker knows only its own dualistic thought and therefore cannot go beyond itself.  The Seer, unbounded in the flow of nondualistic energy, is a free spirit, capable of multidimensional transcendence and therefore is AWARE of intellectual thought and  its severe limitations.  The Seer is thus able to move effortlessly with the nondualistic energy of Truth throughout all dimensions of consciousness, including the gross linear, sequential, time-bound, horizontal plane of intellect. rk:  The Seer sees beyond the limited mechanical instrument of intellect and therefore UNDERSTANDS.  When the seer speaks of What IS seen, he/she is a TALK OF.  The holistic vibration of Truth resonating in his words are notably different from the tentative conflicted, doubt-filled patter of the dualistic energy of spiritually blind intellectually-bound TALK ABOUTs.  As the intellect can only think inductively and deductively, and ruminates endlessly in imaginary realms at the gross level of thinking, it deludes itself into THINKING that it too can "see." Clearly, the intellect sees only its own projection of images and nothing else.  THAT IS ITS LIMITATION AND ITS BLINDNESS. rk:  TALK ABOUTs are THINKERS, not SEERS. rk:  Does this SEER’s response satisfy a THINKER’s question?  The answer to that depends on the thinker awakening from his trancelike sleep and understanding that one must be AWAKE to SEE!                                               Ray Karczewski Tom: Some heavy thinking tonight, Ray.  I can see you put a lot of thought into it. Tom rk:  Tom, that’s the BASSACKWARD approach you are suggesting. Just look at it quietly.  Let the Truth of it speak to you in a moment of silence.  You will either see it in a timeless moment of insight or you won’t.  You will never GET IT through the linear thinking approach.                                 Ray Karczewski  In the illusion based world of man’s thought, there  exist   healthy egos and unhealthy egos –visit my home page and          meet the unhealthy ego’s worst nightmare!    Raymond Karczewski  http://www.cdsnet.net/Business/Ark/

Response:

Re: awakening writes: rk:  The Seer sees beyond the limited mechanical instrument of intellect and therefore UNDERSTANDS.  When the seer speaks of What IS seen, he/she is  a TALK OF.   Duskie  How many times have you said, "you can’t get there from here?"  You have never understood your own words.  "You", the "Seer", can not get there, unless the "there" you are going to is the place you started from.  The Seer is the same as the "you", the self, the ego (healthy or unhealthy), which is the not just the instrument of intellect, but IS the intellect, fooling itself again that it is a Man of Truth, with a capital "M" and a capital "T".  You, indeed, are a talk "of", which is the same as a talk "about".  A "talk about" by any other name is still a "talk of." When are you going to give it up, Ray? rk:  Duskie, in my last post I wrote the following:  "The thinker compensates for the gross limitations in consciousness by reveling in fanciful theories, speculations, judgments, and interpretations of its own parochially conditioned, memory-based images." rk: Duskie, in this post you demonstrate each and every one of the qualites of the nonseeing, thinking TALK ABOUT mentioned above.  You are presently trapped within a knowledgeable intellect filled with your own parochial, conditioned knowledge and are demonstrating a conflicted state of frustration bordering on hysteria when faced with your own spiritual blindness. You may compensate for your lack of spiritual sight with your empty, noisy words; but your pride prevents you from seeing the BASSACKWARD momentum of a noisy, chattering intellect leading you away from the silence which would allow you to see the simple Truth.   rk:  The only question remaining to be asked is why my words are so upsetting to you and the other TALK ABOUTs?  The answer lies in the latin phrase  "Res Ipsa Loquitor."  Translated, it means the "Thing Speaks for Itself."  Paraphrased another way, TRUTH IS SELF EVIDENT.  Nothing noisy about that, is there?                        Ray Karczewski  In the illusion based world of man’s thought, there  exist   healthy egos and unhealthy egos –visit my home page and          meet the unhealthy ego’s worst nightmare!    Raymond Karczewski  http://www.cdsnet.net/Business/Ark/

Response:

Re: awakening Jer: It seems to me that the real question (not verbally expressed) is whether or not Ray is indeed "Awakened". I say ….. what difference does that make? gv: why do you believe that there is a state called "awakened" to be somehow reached by a man or woman? Because other people have said so? If there is no permanent "me" to be found but only passing states, is there someone that awakens? Or is awakening seeing in the moment that there is no separation? And if there is indeed an energetic change when division has stopped, why assume it would mean some kind of infallible clarity? Tom:  Especially since most, if not all, of our emotive though patterns are apparently built upon neurologically wired in affect based reactive programs evolved through life on this planet as a means of protecting the animal organism’s existence.  Thereby the programs can be reactivated again at any time when perceived threat arises and the clarity (silence) diminished. mp: Yes. It would be appropriate, then, to have great compassion for someone who perceives every post as a threat (to a "me") that must be defended by harsh negative labeling that in turn promotes and reactivates more defenses. rk:  Michael, the bottom line question to be asked by go-nowhere, inert TALK ABOUTs stuck in an endless  prison cell loop of speculation and theorizing is, "are the  labels accurate" in their disturbing depiction of the mirrored reactions? mp: Precisely. If you point to that which false as if it were some truth, there will not be much respect for what you point to. To continually affirm the notion of separate beings that are blind or ignorant promotes division and conflict. It does not point to the undivided life that K and others speak of and fosters viewing life from divsion. rk:  A seer meets a thinker.  The seer operates through life predominantly in the mode of direct spiritual sight, but is quite capable of using the thought process of the intellect for technical problem-solving and communication with other instruments of mind.   rk:  The Seer is AWARE and flows in the state of AT-ONE-MENT in the nondualistic energy OF What Is, OF Truth, OF Life. AT-ONE-MENT means just that; it flows in the holistic vibration OF infinite intelligence.  It is, as one Brother stated,  "THE TRUTH, THE LIFE, AND THE WAY." rk; The thinker is a Thought Projection of the dead mechanical instrument of intellect and operates at the vibratory level of duality based in time-bound images.  These images are reflections of a timeless, unbounded, unknowable energy quite beyond the ken of the limited thinker.  The thinker therefore navigates through life at the dualistic level of conflicted images and is blind to the nondualistic energies of  WHAT IS.  In other words, the thinker is UNAWARE.   rk:  The thinker compensates for the gross limitations in consciousness by reveling in fanciful theories, speculations, judgments, and interpretations of its own parochially conditioned, memory-based images.  In doing so, it thinks itself a god of its own relative world. rk:  The intellect never loses sight that there is something missing, unwhole within itself, and so is caught in the time-bound state of constant becoming, constant achieving.  It tries to assuage the pain of its unwholeness with projections of thought it comes to label and worship as its god.   rk:   That, plain and simply, is man’s Fall from Grace.  It is the descent from wholistic direct sight to the indirect, prideful stumbling around of blind men who have been transformed by grand institutions of organized religious thought into codependent slaves in servitude to their own "outer directed" thoughts. That, Michael, Jer, GV, and Tom is as good a definition of HELL as you will ever get. rk:  The thinker knows only its own dualistic thought and therefore cannot go beyond itself.  The Seer, unbounded in the flow of nondualistic energy, is a free spirit, capable of multidimensional transcendence and therefore  is AWARE of intellectual thought and  its severe limitations.  The Seer is thus able to move effortlessly with the nondualistic energy of Truth throughout all dimensions of consciousness, including the gross linear, sequential, time-bound, horizontal plane of intellect.   rk:  The Seer sees beyond the limited mechanical instrument of intellect and therefore UNDERSTANDS.  When the seer speaks of What IS seen, he/she is a TALK OF.  The holistic vibration of Truth resonating in his words are notably different from the tentative conflicted, doubt-filled patter of the dualistic energy of spiritually blind intellectually-bound TALK ABOUTs.  As the intellect can only think inductively and deductively, and ruminates endlessly in imaginary realms at the gross level of thinking, it deludes itself into THINKING that it too can "see." Clearly, the intellect sees only its own projection of images and nothing else.  THAT IS ITS LIMITATION AND ITS BLINDNESS. rk:  TALK ABOUTs are THINKERS, not SEERS. rk:  Does this SEER’s response satisfy a THINKER’s question?  The answer to that depends on the thinker awakening from his trancelike sleep and understanding that one must be AWAKE to SEE!                                 Ray Karczewski  In the illusion based world of man’s thought, there  exist   healthy egos and unhealthy egos –visit my home page and          meet the unhealthy ego’s worst nightmare!    Raymond Karczewski  http://www.cdsnet.net/Business/Ark/

Response:

Re: awakening Jer: It seems to me that the real question (not verbally expressed) is whether or not Ray is indeed "Awakened". I say ….. what difference does that make? gv: why do you believe that there is a state called "awakened" to be somehow reached by a man or woman? Because other people have said so? If there is no permanent "me" to be found but only passing states, is there someone that awakens? Or is awakening seeing in the moment that there is no separation? And if there is indeed an energetic change when division has stopped, why assume it would mean some kind of infallible clarity? Tom:  Especially since most, if not all, of our emotive though patterns are apparently built upon neurologically wired in affect based reactive programs evolved through life on this planet as a means of protecting the animal organism’s existence.  Thereby the programs can be reactivated again at any time when perceived threat arises and the clarity (silence) diminished. mp: Yes. It would be appropriate, then, to have great compassion for someone who perceives every post as a threat (to a "me") that must be defended by harsh negative labeling that in turn promotes and reactivates more defenses. rk:  Michael, the bottom line question to be asked by go-nowhere, inert TALK ABOUTs stuck in an endless  prison cell loop of speculation and theorizing is, "are the  labels accurate" in their disturbing depiction of the mirrored reactions? rk:  Truth is the key that unlocks the prison cell of isolating conditioning and releases a time-bound imprisoned Spirit.  The violent resentment-based reactions by the "violated" institutionalized consciousness trained toward inertia sets the stage for the advent of freedom.  Some are ready for release, others prefer to remain in their locked cells, relishing in the comfort and security of their habitual institutionalized living. rk;  The real question TALK ABOUTs must ask of themselves is "how intelligent are the clever ones who prefer prison to freedom?" Ray Karczewski  In the illusion based world of man’s thought, there  exist   healthy egos and unhealthy egos –visit my home page and          meet the unhealthy ego’s worst nightmare!    Raymond Karczewski  http://www.cdsnet.net/Business/Ark/

Response:

RE: awakening – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -rk: How many times must it be said, "You can’t get there from here"? gv: is there somewhere to go or someone to go somewhere or become something more? Is there a choice as what "you" are, as to what is? One reality is enough. When an ordinary man attains knowledge he is a sage; when a sage attains understanding, he is an ordinary man. rk:  Now go out and tell that to the inner city gang members who are killing each other off because of conditioned machismo which dictates they must have some power in a "percieved" powerless environment, or to the aids afflicted, drug addicted, pregnant unmarried teenager who has just been thrown out of her house by her dysfunctional parents, or to the young black child unable to understand why others, non-blacks, look at him/her differently than than they do each other merely because of the color of their skin.  Tell that to the homeless, jobless, confused, angry, resentful who make up the remainder of civilized society, but for the controlling few.  Go ahead and tell them.  See if they have the eyes to see and the ears to listen to such language, clearly inappropriate to the life experience. rk:  Can you say I-G-N-O-R-A-N-T  T-A-L-K – A-B-O-U-T   S-C-H-N-O-O-K? tm: How about you go out and expound your incredible spiel to those angry, resentful, homeless, jobless, confused, drug addicted, aids afflicted, pregnant unmarried black teenage gang members. Perhaps they will enjoy the overbearing presence of an ignorant bassackward talk-about schnook even more than we do. Just a bit of mirroring now.

rk:  I wonder if the TALK ABOUTs squealing the loudest in their writhing reactions to the pearl of Truth see just how hard they do work at rending a "Man of Truth" in order to preserve their own personal intellectual HELL?   rk:  Now that’s BASSACKWARDS, isn’t it?                                               Ray Karczewski  In the illusion based world of man’s thought, there  exist   healthy egos and unhealthy egos –visit my home page and          meet the unhealthy ego’s worst nightmare!    Raymond Karczewski  http://www.cdsnet.net/Business/Ark/

Response:

Re: awakening writes:RE: awakening rk: How many times must it be said, "You can’t get there from here"? gv: is there somewhere to go or someone to go somewhere or become something more? Is there a choice as what "you" are, as to what is? One reality is enough. When an ordinary man attains knowledge he is a sage; when a sage attains understanding, he is an ordinary man. rk:  Now go out and tell that to the inner city gang members who are killing each other off because of conditioned machismo which dictates they must have some power in a "percieved" powerless environment, or to the aids afflicted, drug addicted, pregnant unmarried teenager who has just been thrown out of her house by her dysfunctional parents, or to the young black child unable to understand why others, non-blacks, look at him/her differently than than they do each other merely because of the color of their skin.  Tell that to the homeless, jobless, confused, angry, resentful who make up the remainder of civilized society, but for the  controlling few.  Go ahead and tell them.  See if they have the eyes to see and the ears to listen to such language, clearly inappropriate to the life experience. rk:  Can you say I-G-N-O-R-A-N-T  T-A-L-K – A-B-O-U-T   S-C-H-N-O-O-K? tm: How about you go out and expound your incredible spiel to those angry, resentful, homeless, jobless, confused, drug addicted, aids afflicted, pregnant unmarried black teenage gang members. Perhaps they will enjoy the overbearing presence of an ignorant bassackward talk-about schnook even more than we do. Just a bit of mirroring now. rk:  I wonder if the TALK ABOUTs squealing the loudest in their writhing reactions to the pearl of Truth see just how hard they do work at  rending a "Man of Truth" in order to preserve their own personal intellectual HELL?   rk:  Now that’s BASSACKWARDS, isn’t it? Bruce:  Ray, Tom is making a valid point — the hypothetical ghetto and trailer park denizens you brought up would surely react to Greg’s homily on "a sage" with bemusement and/or befuddlement, I agree that a less rarified form of communication is called for.  The question which I suspect Tom is implying is whether the blunt instrument of confrontation is any more appropriate in the context of folks whose lives largely comprise abject deprivation and suffering than enigmatic talk of "a sage." rk:  Bruce, let’s not deal with hypotheticals.  Let’s start with "What IS," here and now, as mispercieved by conditioned intellects that are responsible for the conditions which allow for such divisiveness and ignorance. rk:  As a cop I dealt daily with dysfunctional people, both inside and outside of the structure of government.  I dealt daily with the division of cops who considered others as creeps and dealt with them according to their fear-based preconditionings. rk:  I do not single out people when I write, but I do mirror those who display outrage when they feel the sting of their own self judgment through the reading of my words. rk;  I  consider no man to be my superior or inferior, but see all as my equal.  Dualistic intellects rail at the possiblity of such equality and so create the very schism of inferior and superior which they then attempt to lay off on someone else. That is, in fact, what is going on presently in these newsgroups. rk:   Yes, my writing is different from most, for I write and speak of a corrupt system of thought that is never really deeply examined by the average person, yet engulfs the human spirit and enslaves it to a neverending life of HELLISH conflict.. rk:   That is the OLD CONSCIOUSNESS that must die before the living spirit of Truth which is the essence of the NEW CONSCIOUSNESS may emerge.  It (the OLD CONSCIOUSNESS) comes to its demise by its very exposure to the mirror of Truth. rk:   It is a fine line indeed which calls for a highly refined energy of spiritual discernment to SEE.  For the NEW CONSCIOUSNESS which is now being touted by the public media in the role of architect sculpting out a new religious and political correctness, is no more than the OLD CONSCIOUSNESS wearing a NEW mask. rk:  Who would commit a crime (a defined act by lawmakers separating and classifying peoples for the sake of power and control) if they truly felt there was no need to act contrary to their own inherent right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of EQUALITY? rk:  When dualism is understood for the HELL that it is by a consciousness which, in an unguarded fleeting moment of freedom from its habitual thought reinforcement, has invited the nondualistic energy of LOVE to mirror its own self-destructive behavior, then and only then it will not matter to whom I speak my words of truth.  For my words WILL be HEARD by those who have the "spiritual eyes to see and the ears to hear." rk:  Until then, I will continue to deal with the SCHNOOKS.                                               Ray Karczewski  In the illusion based world of man’s thought, there  exist   healthy egos and unhealthy egos –visit my home page and          meet the unhealthy ego’s worst nightmare!    Raymond Karczewski  http://www.cdsnet.net/Business/Ark/

Response:

Re: awakening rk:  You just don’t GET IT, do you?  How many times must it be said, "You can’t get there from here"?   That, Michael, is the nature of the ignorance  you share with other TALK ABOUTs.  What you express above has  little to do  with the coming to atonement in Truth within a dualistic realm of one’s  intellect, and much to do with intellectual game playing.  Speak only truth  and I will communicate with you to the end of time.  Do as you do NOW and I  will only mirror that back to you. mp: Yes I am wrong once again. I guess that means you are running away from the attention and from the questions. Is there a way to support your views of an ego in life prior to the arising of conception or by use of logic or the intellect. mp: In the intellect, There is a "me" that doesn’t get it, There is a "me" that can get somewhere, There is a coming to atonement, There are ego’s healthy or not, The intellect is something to negate. mp:  Yet there is, No where to go. Nothing to do. No one to go anywhere. What do you really want to say, Ray? rk:  Understand that, and YOU GOT IT!!!                           Ray Karczewski  In the illusion based world of man’s thought, there  exist   healthy egos and unhealthy egos –visit my home page and          meet the unhealthy ego’s worst nightmare!    Raymond Karczewski  http://www.cdsnet.net/Business/Ark/

Response:

Re: awakening – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -rk: How many times must it be said, "You can’t get there from here"? gv: is there somewhere to go or someone to go somewhere or become something more? Is there a choice as what "you" are, as to what is? One reality is enough. When an ordinary man attains knowledge he is a sage; when a sage attains understanding, he is an ordinary man. rk:  Now go out and tell that to the inner city gang members who are killing each other off because of conditioned machismo which dictates they must have some power in a "percieved" powerless environment, or to the aids afflicted, drug addicted, pregnant unmarried teenager who has just been thrown out of her house by her dysfunctional parents, or to the young black child unable to understand why others, non-blacks, look at him/her differently than than they do each other merely because of the color of their skin.  Tell that to the homeless, jobless, confused, angry, resentful who make up the remainder of civilized society, but for the controlling few.  Go ahead and tell them.  See if they have the eyes to see and the ears to listen to such language, clearly inappropriate to the life experience. gv: so what do you propose be said in these instances? Certainly calling them names would bring more resistance than it does on the internet. If there is no receptivity, there is nothing to be said is there?

rk:  Nor does receptivity for eternal Truth exist in the linear, reactionary intellects of scholarly bent TALK ABOUTs, for the "god" they have been trained to  worship is the "god of knowledge," the illusory idea which amounts to not much more than so much transient fluff.  Ignorance has many modes of resistance when facing the Mirror of Truth. rk: To paraphrase the first of the Ten Commandments of the Judeo-Christian religion, it has been said, "I AM THE LORD THY GOD (I AM TRUTH.).  THOU SHALT HAVE NO OTHER (false) GODS (ideas which represent, reflect, and counterfeit MY ESSENCE) BEFORE ME. rk:  This cannot be grasped by the limited, gross, conditioned, linear intellect, but it is readily understood by the Resurrected Spirit OF at-onement with the multidimensional transcendent Supreme Intelligence. rk:  One must die to the intellect to be reborn of the spirit. All  posts manifesting outrage to my simple statements of Truth are the vocalized death throes of disintegrating intellects whose illusory transient status has been mirrored by eternal Truth. rk:  Painful, but necessary.  That is the NEW CONSCIOUSNESS which awaits those who shall inherit the earth.  Those of  the OLD CONSCIOUSNESS  who have been trained to live by the sword of duality will indeed die by the sword of duality.                                           Ray Karczewski  In the illusion based world of man’s thought, there  exist   healthy egos and unhealthy egos –visit my home page and          meet the unhealthy ego’s worst nightmare!    Raymond Karczewski  http://www.cdsnet.net/Business/Ark/

Response:

Re: awakening – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -rk: How many times must it be said, "You can’t get there from here"? gv: is there somewhere to go or someone to go somewhere or become something more? Is there a choice as what "you" are, as to what is? One reality is enough. When an ordinary man attains knowledge he is a sage; when a sage attains understanding, he is an ordinary man.

rk:  Now go out and tell that to the inner city gang members who are killing each other off because of conditioned machismo which dictates they must have some power in a "percieved" powerless environment, or to the aids afflicted, drug addicted, pregnant unmarried teenager who has just been thrown out of her house by her dysfunctional parents, or to the young black child unable to understand why others, non-blacks, look at him/her differently than than they do each other merely because of the color of their skin.  Tell that to the homeless, jobless, confused, angry, resentful who make up the remainder of civilized society, but for the controlling few.  Go ahead and tell them.  See if they have the eyes to see and the ears to listen to such language, clearly inappropriate to the life experience. rk:  Can you say I-G-N-O-R-A-N-T  T-A-L-K – A-B-O-U-T S-C-H-N-O-O-K?                                                Ray Karczewski  In the illusion based world of man’s thought, there  exist   healthy egos and unhealthy egos –visit my home page and          meet the unhealthy ego’s worst nightmare!    Raymond Karczewski  http://www.cdsnet.net/Business/Ark/

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Re: awakening – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – v:   No person is privvy alone to *the TRUTH*, like you proclaim, & that includes you. The sooner you admit that & take your rightful place amongst us *plebians*, the better off you will be.    Please do not call me any more names; just think about this offering I have spent my precious time to present you with.    It’s about time for you to "eat crow" to some extent, wouldn’t you say? Or will you keep befuddling people as the very TALKABOUT you keep seeing in everyone else?    It’s YOUR choice to SEE, or remain BLIND, eh rk:  Val, I dare say that what you have expressed in this post is quite an indictment, but of whom? rk:  Were one to mingle in the Middle East crowd some 2000 years ago, they might have well heard the same sentiments being expressed by any number of the confused and ignorant people present when the consensus thinking of impotent TALK ABOUTs  led to the release of Barabbas. v: yes; okay-fine!   what’s frustrating me is this polarization "us against them" mentality. "Republicans vs. Democrats", "Government vs. the little people", "Men vs. Women", "Liberals vs. Conservatives", "Fundamentalists vs. New Agey", "White Supremacists vs. Honor Diversity", ad nauseum. For cryin’ out loud, we’re perched on a precipice of WW3 & mass destruction; can’t we even have a discussion about spiritual matters without somebody having to be RIGHT, & everybody else is WRONG???   Nobody is entirely right, nor is everyone mass-lumped into being entirely wrong. All of us consist of shades of gray – right sometimes about somethings for some people, & vice-versa. Only from the vantage point of mutual respect is REAL communication possible.

rk:  Val, your upset, along with that of the other self-deluded TALK ABOUTs experiencing similar reactions, is nothing more than the introduction to your/their own dualistic, skewed, conditioned mindset stated in an absolute, nonarguable way.  What is really freaking all of you out is that you are unable to find escape as your spiritual feet are being held to your own self created HELL FIRE.  What was it that Jesus said about TRUTH?   Oh  yes!   ". . . and the gates of HELL shall not prevail against it."                                                   Ray Karczewski  In the illusion based world of man’s thought, there  exist   healthy egos and unhealthy egos –visit my home page and          meet the unhealthy ego’s worst nightmare!    Raymond Karczewski  http://www.cdsnet.net/Business/Ark/

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Re: awakening writes: mp:  Can you respond to this without projecting a host of ignorant list members and labeling them this or that? Let go a little. We are friends here. rk:  Only a blind believing, conclusion-bound hypocrite or an outright ignoramus would make such a bold statement while demonstrably enslaved to the service of such Hell-bound, divisive, dualistic opposing terms as "Good and Evil," "Right and Wrong," etc.  Such is the nature of energy of conditioned minds which create the momentum of a BASSACKWARD world. duskie: (I didn’t want you holding your breath for a civilized answer, so I just checked the archives for the standard procedural one.) duskie:  Ray’s message is in the words. rk:  And cut and pasted (quite out of its original context) from an "old post"  by a wannabe thought manipulator trying her hand at obfuscation in a discussion group purportedly in search of TRUTH.                                                  Ray Karczewski  In the illusion based world of man’s thought, there  exist   healthy egos and unhealthy egos –visit my home page and          meet the unhealthy ego’s worst nightmare!    Raymond Karczewski  http://www.cdsnet.net/Business/Ark/

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Re: awakening

rk:  The word "healthy," means whole, holisitic, balanced, nondualistic, at-one, complete, sound, nonfragmented.  There are many many words one may use to describe the same directly perceived, unknown "essence" depending on their suitability of vibration at the level of communication. mp: What do those adjectives describe? Does it mean a healthy ego? A holistic ego? A nondualistic ego? A non-fragmented ego? If that is so, then what do you mean by an ego? mp:  ego: 1- the self; the individual as self-aware   2- egotism; conceit   3- Philos.  the self, variously conceived as a spiritual substance on which experience is superimposed, the series of acts and mental states introspectively recognized, etc. mp:  I usually think of "ego" as pointing to some individual or center or "me"  that is dualistic or fragmented by definition. This would then mean you speak about a "non-fragmented fragment or some other type of non-dualistic dualism. Since that does not make much sense, perhaps you could clarify your definition of an "ego" that can be healthy so I may understand you more clearly. rk:  You will never understand Truth by having another define it for you. Your conditioned state of ignorance prevents you from seeing your own perpetuation of the verbal nonsense which  binds you to the intellectual realm of consciousness.  What you and the other pleasure/power seeking TALK ABOUTs of this group presently engage in may be best termed as mental masturbation. rk:  What part of BASSACKWARDS which "describes" the momentum underlying  your dualistic-based intellectual approach to truth do you not understand?  Unless you are free, do not talk of freedom.  Unless you SEE, do not talk  of understanding.  Drop your theorizing.  Drop the speculation.  Drop the  wild imaginings.  From this moment on  speak only Truth, and nothing else. I guarantee the world as you now know it will end–at least for you!  Then you will understand the true meaning of the "Second Coming of Christ." v: aw…bullshit! people who talk about it don’t know, & people who know don’t talk about it; because there are no words to describe…isn’t that the usual rule & common consensus? the more ‘talkabout’ I hear from this camp, the more convinced I become of the dualistic projection & *double whammy* of confused ignorance struggling to proclaim itself as ‘adult-to-child AUTHORITY’ .   Ray the K – do you know any ways to seduce people to your way of thinking (like maybe – a good joke), rather than your continuous futile attempts to dismiss them as your "inferiors"?    You hold nothin’ on me, nor anyone in this group but Bruce, that I can see. Why do you keep talking down to everyone when your stance is seemingly impotent? You don’t even strike me as ‘Chicken Little’. more like ‘The Boy Who Cried Wolf’!    I thought I discerned a brain behind your propoganda; I am beginning to wonder why.    No person is privvy alone to *the TRUTH*, like you proclaim, & that includes you. The sooner you admit that & take your rightful place amongst us *plebians*, the better off you will be.    Please do not call me any more names; just think about this offering I have spent my precious time to present you with.    It’s about time for you to "eat crow" to some extent, wouldn’t you say? Or will you keep befuddling people as the very TALKABOUT you keep seeing in everyone else?    It’s YOUR choice to SEE, or remain BLIND, eh rk:  Val, I dare say that what you have expressed in this post is quite an indictment, but of whom? rk:  Were one to mingle in the Middle East crowd some 2000 years ago, they might have well heard the same sentiments being expressed by any number of the confused and ignorant people present when the consensus thinking of impotent TALK ABOUTs  led to the release of Barabbas.                                                   Ray Karczewski  In the illusion based world of man’s thought, there  exist   healthy egos and unhealthy egos –visit my home page and          meet the unhealthy ego’s worst nightmare!    Raymond Karczewski  http://www.cdsnet.net/Business/Ark/

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Re: awakening rk:  GV, you have just given a typical demonstration of the inanity of verbally talented TALK ABOUTs who have a penchant for the superficial manipulation of words at the letter of the world level but don’t have a clue as to what such empty words actually represents. gv: Ray, I could see through that BS since day one. Who are you trying to convince? rk:  You feed the divisions necessary for dualistic debate when you say such stupid things, thinking you are displaying cleverness. gv: thanks for again expressing antagonistic dualistic judgments. rk:  The word "healthy," means whole, holisitic, balanced, nondualistic, at-one, complete, sound, nonfragmented.  There are many many words one may use to describe the same directly perceived, unknown "essence" depending on their suitability of vibration at the level of communication.  Even at the grossest level of prideful ignoramuses (as displayed daily on  Internet newsgroups) how, by  inference, can unhealthy egos (the dualistic antithesis which represents habitual thoughts bound to fragmented dualistic intellects) experience the vibration of atonement with the holistic Spirit of Intelligence, i.e., GOD? gv: see the comparing and judging, the building up of self-image?! rk:  Is it not time for intellectual word manipulating TALK ABOUTs to put away the childishness of empty rhetoric so they may grow to spiritual understanding? gv: indeed. * * * * * * * * DJ: "the humbleness of the warrior is not the humbleness of the beggar. The warrior lowers his head to no one, but at the same time, he doesn’t permit anyone to lower his head to him. The beggar on the other hand, falls to his knees at the drop of a hat and scrapes the floor for anyone he deems higher; but at the same time, he demands that someone lower than him scrape the floor for him. I know only the humbleness of a warrior, and that will never permit me to be anyone’s master."                   rk:  Do you now understand what is meant by vibrational dissonance at the letter-of-the-word level? Do you now see that the same words said at different vibrations of consciousness can manifest as different meanings in a medium of communication such as this? gv: of course, and always did. rk:   You have inserted the quote as an after-comment to this post in an obvious attempt to make the point of disparity. I have no problem with that observation. It is true.  After all, RES IPSA LOQUITOR.  It is quite clear to all who read this exchange that such disparity exists. I resonate wholeheartedly with the Don Juan quote you have selected. So tell me, GV, what is still wrong with this picture? gv: quite simply, if DJ’s insight is understood, it is a living reality. If you "believe" that it is, better look again. rk:  Once again your TALK ABOUT propensity for twisting/changing another’s meaning is being amply demonstrated.  Why would you equate "wholehearted resonance" with timeless truth. regardless of when and how it is expressed, with the time-bound label of dualistic belief?  You’re talking out of both sides of your mouth, are you not?  That is the point I make about pretentious ignoramuses who get caught up in their own ego-based illusion of cleverness. rk: GV, you only expose yourself as a game player by such deceptive tactics. Ray Karczewski  In the illusion based world of man’s thought, there  exist   healthy egos and unhealthy egos –visit my home page and          meet the unhealthy ego’s worst nightmare!    Raymond Karczewski  http://www.cdsnet.net/Business/Ark/

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Re: awakening  rk:  The word "healthy," means whole, holisitic, balanced, nondualistic,  at-one, complete, sound, nonfragmented.  There are many many words one may use to describe the same directly perceived, unknown "essence" depending on their suitability of vibration at the level of communication.   mp: What do those adjectives describe? Does it mean a healthy ego? A holistic ego? A nondualistic ego? A non-fragmented ego? If that is so, then what do you mean by an ego? mp:  ego: 1- the self; the individual as self-aware   2- egotism; conceit   3- Philos.  the self, variously conceived as a spiritual substance on which experience is superimposed, the series of acts and mental states introspectively recognized, etc. mp:  I usually think of "ego" as pointing to some individual or center or "me"  that is dualistic or fragmented by definition. This would then mean you speak about a "non-fragmented fragment or some other type of non-dualistic dualism. Since that does not make much sense, perhaps you could clarify your definition of an "ego" that can be healthy so I may understand you more clearly. rk:  You will never understand Truth by having another define it for you.  Your conditioned state of ignorance prevents you from seeing your own perpetuation of the verbal nonsense which  binds you to the intellectual realm of consciousness.  What you and the other pleasure/power seeking TALK ABOUTs of this group presently engage in may be best termed as mental masturbation. rk:  What part of BASSACKWARDS which "describes" the momentum underlying your dualistic-based intellectual approach to truth do you not understand?  Unless you are free, do not talk of freedom. Unless you SEE, do not talk of understanding.  Drop your theorizing.  Drop the speculation.  Drop the wild imaginings. From this moment on  speak only Truth, and nothing else.  I guarantee the world as you now know it will end–at least for you!  Then you will understand the true meaning of the "Second Coming of Christ."                                                  Ray Karczewski  In the illusion based world of man’s thought, there  exist   healthy egos and unhealthy egos –visit my home page and          meet the unhealthy ego’s worst nightmare!    Raymond Karczewski  http://www.cdsnet.net/Business/Ark/

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Re: awakening rk:  GV, you have just given a typical demonstration of the inanity of verbally talented TALK ABOUTs who have a penchant for the superficial manipulation of words at the letter of the world level but don’t have a clue as to what such empty words actually represents. gv: Ray, I could see through that BS since day one. Who are you trying to convince? rk:  You feed the divisions necessary for dualistic debate when you say  such stupid things, thinking you are displaying cleverness. gv: thanks for again expressing antagonistic dualistic judgments. rk:  The word "healthy," means whole, holisitic, balanced, nondualistic, at-one, complete, sound, nonfragmented.  There are many many words one may use to describe the same directly perceived, unknown "essence" depending on their suitability of vibration at the level of communication.  Even at the grossest level of prideful ignoramuses (as displayed daily on  Internet newsgroups) how, by  inference, can unhealthy egos (the dualistic antithesis which represents habitual thoughts bound to fragmented dualistic intellects) experience the vibration of atonement with the holistic Spirit of Intelligence, i.e., GOD? gv: see the comparing and judging, the building up of self-image?! rk:  Is it not time for intellectual word manipulating TALK ABOUTs to put away the childishness of empty rhetoric so they may grow to spiritual understanding? gv: indeed. * * * * * * * * DJ: "the humbleness of the warrior is not the humbleness of the beggar. The warrior lowers his head to no one, but at the same time, he doesn’t permit anyone to lower his head to him. The beggar on the other hand, falls to his knees at the drop of a hat and scrapes the floor for anyone he deems higher; but at the same time, he demands that someone lower than him scrape the floor for him. I know only the humbleness of a warrior, and that will never permit me to be anyone’s master."                   rk:  Do you now understand what is meant by  vibrational dissonance at the letter-of-the-word level?  Do you now see that the same words said at different vibrations of consciousness can manifest as different meanings in a medium of communication such as this?  You have inserted the quote as an after-comment to this post in an obvious attempt to make the point of disparity. I have no problem with that observation.  It is true.  After all, RES IPSA LOQUITOR.  It is quite clear to all who read this exchange that such disparity exists.   rk:  I resonate wholeheartedly with the Don Juan quote you have selected.  So tell me, GV, what is still wrong with this picture?                                   Ray Karczewski  In the illusion based world of man’s thought, there  exist   healthy egos and unhealthy egos –visit my home page and          meet the unhealthy ego’s worst nightmare!    Raymond Karczewski  http://www.cdsnet.net/Business/Ark/

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Re: awakening gv: is an "approach" that aims for a desired result the action of intelligence? Pointing to "what is" brings attention to facts. That seeing is enough. bruce: Does a "non-approach" that does not account for the "pearls before swine" phenomenon comprise action or self-indulgent choir-preaching? gv: and you and Ray are to be the choir directors, right? <g bruce:  Intelligence, the very impetus of love, calls thought to service, that service in turn demands realism in relationship, and the truth imparts its own momentum, quite apart from any "desired result."  This is the essence of casting ones bread upon the waters without expectation, it does not imply futilely flushing it down the loo because of some misguided notion of unfailingly non- dual stylistic purity. gv: in other words, god or truth is on "your" side, on the side of the healthy egos? Merv- rk and bm finally agree with you on something. rk:  GV, you have just given a typical demonstration of the inanity of verbally talented TALK ABOUTs who have a penchant for the superficial manipulation of words at the letter of the world level but don’t have a clue as to what such empty words actually represents. rk:  You feed the divisions necessary for dualistic debate when you say such stupid things, thinking you are displaying cleverness. rk:  The word "healthy," means whole, holisitic, balanced, nondualistic, at-one, complete, sound, nonfragmented.  There are many many words one may use to describe the same directly perceived, unknown "essence" depending on their suitability of vibration at the level of communication.   rk:  Even at the grossest level of prideful ignoramuses (as displayed daily on  Internet newsgroups) how, by  inference, can unhealthy egos (the dualistic antithesis which represents habitual thoughts bound to fragmented dualistic intellects) experience the vibration of atonement with the holistic Spirit of Intelligence, i.e., GOD? rk:  Is it not time for intellectual word manipulating TALK ABOUTs to put away the childishness of empty rhetoric so they may grow to spiritual understanding?                          Ray  Karczewski  In the illusion based world of man’s thought, there  exist   healthy egos and unhealthy egos –visit my home page and          meet the unhealthy ego’s worst nightmare!    Raymond Karczewski  http://www.cdsnet.net/Business/Ark/

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Re: awakening

Bruce, D:  maybe I have it all wrong but it seems that you have something for Ray K. —   B:  I consider him a friend and a truthful person. D:Did you get his book?   B:  He sent me a copy to see of I had any insight into how it might be more effectively distributed.  I didn’t have any.  My affinity for him is not based on "his book." D: I still don’t get what’s he is trying accomplish besides fulfilling someking grandeur idea that he can save the world via the internet by repeatingly calling posters one of his patented names… I really don’t get it at all. B:That’s understandable. D:  I don’t think anybody here expects somekind of enlightenment, spiritual experience, a discovery of truth via these written words. B:  Maybe you’re right, I don’t know. D:  It’s just a discussion… yet I do see how we are stuck in our silly idealogies,  how our culture has effected us etc… and we babble on in our limitness. B:  The list is the world. D: But how can one talk about go around calling everyone else a talk about but can’t see the same in himself. B:It’s quite clear he doesn’t see himself as fitting the label and you do, not surprising. D:There is a lot of denial going on here.   B:Indeed. D:  I have much respect in some one who says they do not know, that they do not have the answers plaging humankind, like sex, war, education, etc… and is willing to discuss it, than some one who gets on a high horse and throws manure– as way to introduce his victims to their egos. B:  OK, opinion(s) noted. D: Gurus come and gurus go…  oh well it’s me again and my incapability  to have much respect for those that pose themselves to be of somekind of authority and superority…  It’s the lie of the petty one-up-manship  at the local country club… INPUT here <== B;  I see much of the above as infered and certainly don’t see Ray as an "authority" or asserting "superiority." D:Or is it my problem of ego that i don’t appreciate asshololics? B:  That’s not for me to say, David — once a label like that is asserted, there’s not much potential for appreciation. D:The temptation of judgment, the compulsion of response, the denial of corruption. B:Quite a laundry list, are you sure it refects what’s going on? D:What is easier? To observe and criticize others or to be still, quiet, and unimportant, and observe thy self and the big fat ego that is cleverly in operation  – B: Observation is observation, and seeing outward does not preclude looking inward. D: thinking because it has understanding that ‘it’ is superior, the anointed one of the special creation of some believed God.   B: I see more inference here, to be tasked is a far cry from being "anointed," and the use of the syllable "God" implies neither a "believed" divine personage nor "superior," "special creation," etc. rk:  David, I suggest you read my other comments to this same thread.  You will note that both Bruce and I have spoken to you in Truth, though the manner of expressing it differs considerably. rk:  Bruce has spoken to you in a form more palatable to the intellect than mine. Since the Intellect is bound to time and space, giving a comfortable buffer labeled the observer and the observed, he has offered you and all others of conventional consciousness who identify with the conversation both time and space in which to come to truth.  He has left it open-ended for the reader to see or not see. rk:  My method of communication is timeless.  It is based in the imminent moment of NOW.  There is a cutting away of time and space, as a call is made for action NOW.  In that moment there is no observer and observed, there is just WHAT IS.  It is quite a different vibration, is it not?  There is no comfort in facing oneself NOW,  is there?  It is a "sink or swim" situation.  Given time and space, the intellect never has to do anything but TALK ABOUT its intentions of doing something in its time-bound projections of the future.  Such is the role procrastination plays in cementing lost souls in their self-made psychological HELLS. rk:  Patiently, Bruce leads you to the precipice of thought, and will stand there and keep you company until your procrastination sorely tests his time-bound patience.  I lead you to the precipice and then, by stepping beyond, demonstrate that it can be done.  At that point my job is done, and I’m outta there.  You are on your own to take or not take the step as you see fit.  It is the feeling of loneliness and abandonment that you and others label as harsh when you are left to probe the AL-ONE-NESS of your being as you stand at the edge of the precipice of thought. rk:  Silly TALK ABOUTs go on endlessly ABOUT what is being pointed to by my posts.  Such is the nonsense of word manipulating  intellectuals who live in a titillating world of BASSACKWARD.  They pridefully shovel away at the muck of their own dualistic thought, thinking they are digging themselves out of their mess.  All the while they are digging themselves deeper into their custom-fitted holes of despair.  While engaged in such busy-work, escapist activity,  NEVER does it dawn upon such schnooks that in a Nondualistic realm the MESSENGER is the MESSAGE.  Did not Jesus say that He "was the Truth, the Life, and the Way?"                                            Ray Karczewski You don’t need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]  In the illusion based world of man’s thought, there  exist   healthy egos and unhealthy egos –visit my home page and          meet the unhealthy ego’s worst nightmare!    Raymond Karczewski  http://www.cdsnet.net/Business/Ark/

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Re: awakening Bruce, D:  maybe I have it all wrong but it seems that you have something for Ray K. —  Did you get his book?  I still don’t get what’s he is trying accomplish besides fulfilling someking grandeur idea that he can save the world via the internet by repeatingly calling posters one of his patented names… I really don’t get it at all. rk: David, even in your present state of confusion, you make that point quite clear. D:  I don’t think anybody here expects somekind of enlightenment, spiritual experience, a discovery of truth via these written words. It’s just a discussion… yet I do see how we are stuck in our silly idealogies, how our culture has effected us etc… and we babble on in our limitness. rk;  David, here you recite the creed of the TALK ABOUT. D:  But how can one talk about go around calling everyone else a talk about but can’t see the same in himself. rk:  David, If you were able to SEE, there would be no need to pose the question you just asked. D:   There is a lot of denial going on  here.  I have much respect in some one who says they do not know, that  they do not have the answers plaging humankind, like sex, war, education, etc… and is willing to discuss it, than some one who gets on a high horse and throws manure– as way to introduce his victims to their egos. rk:  David, here you declare your worship of the BASSACKWARDs, do you not? You worship the flawed and eschew the Truth of Life as IT IS! D: Gurus come and gurus go…  oh well it’s me again and my incapability to have much respect for those that pose themselves to be of somekind of authority and superority…  It’s the lie of the petty one-up-manship at the local country club… INPUT here <== rk: As perceived by whom through their own prideful assertions of incapability? D: Or is it my problem of ego that i don’t appreciate asshololics?   rk: David,  I can’t hear what you are saying; the noise of projection is just too loud. D:  The temptation of judgment, the compulsion of response, the denial of corruption. What is easier? To observe and criticize others or to be still, quiet, and unimportant, and observe thy self and the big fat ego that is cleverly in operation  – thinking because it has understanding that ‘it’ is superior, the anointed one of the special creation of some believed God.   rk:  David, to whom are you writing if not to yourself??                                   Ray Karczewski — {~._.~}  David Ubico "( Y )      ALCATEL Data Networks              http://www.nyx.net/~dubico (_)-(_) (703)724-2565                   *** creating beyond fringes ***  In the illusion based world of man’s thought, there  exist   healthy egos and unhealthy egos –visit my home page and          meet the unhealthy ego’s worst nightmare!    Raymond Karczewski  http://www.cdsnet.net/Business/Ark/

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Re: awakening writes: bruce: Awakening is simply an occurence, isn’t it, not "something that you do" through effort or intent.   gv: yes, so is there a choice to see or not to see? mp: I’m not sure what you gentlemen think awakening is. rK;  Michael, why do you sell short for the knowledge of what another "thinks" when the Truth is to be found in what they understand.  This is what is meant by the futility of TALK ABOUTs who tarry at the periphery.  TRUTH is all there is. In matters of Spirit, ask nothing less of another and of  yourself but of the holistic (holy) spirit of Truth.   A  TALK OF is Truth personified.  That is what Jesus meant when He said, "I am the Truth, the Life, and the Way…." mp:  Do you think it is an  occurrence, like some sort of an experience? Is it an experience that we can experience? Is it an experience that can be fostered in another? Does the experience come and go?  What is awakening?<< gv: awakening is when intelligence, a direct impersonal seeing of what is, begins to operate. When this occurs there is an energetic change. How do you understand it? mp: It seemed that awakening was being held in a framework of being something that occurs to or is experienced by some kind of a self. rk:  The framework you refer to is the dualistic matrix of conditioned thought. It accounts for the horrendous nature of a world inhabited by the sleeping masses. It is the realm where many dream they are awake while their outer imposed hypnotic trance state deepens allowing them to evade  responsibility for their personal contribution to a world of  neverending wars, famine, poverty and exploitation of fellow man..  That is the nature of the thought based  Bassackward world of man.  An awakened man/woman of TRUTH  is anathema to the positive imaged misdirecting dreams which mask the real Hell that is going on. The disturbance felt in such a relationship is the awakening process (not to be confused with "awakened state"). Inference, no? mp:  It seems there was an implication that one person could help another to this experience of awakening by virtue of skillful use of negative labeling or some other means. Bruce:No, all any means, "skillful," "negative," or otherwise, can do is to point out the fact of sleep. mp:This seems to imply that awakening is subject to cause and effect. Bruce: Inference/implication upon inference/implication arrives at yet another inference/implication, or so it "seems." rk:  Yes, that is the "automatic pilot" of the  instrument of intellect operating at the  linear plane of technical  thought when compensating for one who "flies spiritually blind." mp: In looking at this moment, I don’t see a self that could ever do anything, either wake up or wake up another. Bruce:  Agreed, the "self" is neither agency nor catalyst.   The truth (pointed toward by thought-born language or otherwise) "does" that given a momentary absence of the sleeping state, an "opening." mp: A glimpse beyond conceptual frameworks may, however, give an appearance of an experience when considered from that frame of reference. Bruce:Yes, from the comparative or technical perspective it is categorized as experiential. mp:The sense of there being a self that experiences awakening seems dependent on a dualistic conceptual framework. Is that what is meant by awakening? Bruce: Yes, especially since "a dualistic or conceptual framework" is the agency of sleep and cannot express (let alone see) it otherwise.   Seen from sleep, awakening is defined as the opposite of sleep, it is actually the absence of the occlusions and distortions comprising sleep, e.g. "a conceptual framework" and other thought-driven phenomena. You don’t need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

 In the illusion based world of man’s thought, there  exist   healthy egos and unhealthy egos –visit my home page and          meet the unhealthy ego’s worst nightmare!    Raymond Karczewski  http://www.cdsnet.net/Business/Ark/

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Re: awakening                 May You have a wonderful day!

gv: What does an intimate master/disciple relationship have to do with telling off large groups of people on the internet? bruce: The "intimate master/disciple relationship" is familiar to us from our reading and/or experience and therefore part of our preconceptions of what is acceptable.  The loud, unsubtle man kicking us squarely in our "spiritual" comfort zones is not acceptable based on preconceptions, his "loud, unsubtle" manner resembles that of those we are predisposed to view negatively, therefore we feel free to label him pejoratively and assume his presence is ego-driven in nature and deleterious in effect. gv: egotistical domineering behavior is just that. bruce:  Exactly, it is an overbearing  manner or "style" of expression, to see whether it is "egotistical" would require looking beyond such appearances, as we so readily do with the abrupt and painful methods of a revered Zen roshi.  We seem to have a choice as to whether we enter the roshi’s monastery, likewise we needn’t read or heed what is posted here if it pains or offends us. mp: How is it that what Ray says may be compared with the actions of a Zen teacher? Bruce: They are both humans whose  actions may seem harsh and/or inappropriate from the context of consensus politesse. : mp:  Are you suggesting that Ray’s words may come from a state of mind similar to a Zen teacher? bruce: I was pointing toward a parallel in externals, in appearances that can be misconstrued as egotism or judgment;   there are far too many people teaching Zen for any comparison beyond that to be meaningful. : S:  Something is ignored here. Lets take Michael’s question first. Is Michael suggesting Ray’s words do come from one source and those of a Zen-master from another? What happened to our unitary perception? S:  Whether Ray’s actions are like those of a Zen-master or of a donkey is surely an issue only an observer can decide when he sees a difference between a donkey and a Zen-master. Is there any objective frame of reference where this issue could be decided impersonally? S:  Greg finds Ray an "egotistical domineering" personality. Can one ego dominate another unless the latter too is an ego? Anf if both are egos in a relationship, what then is the problem? Is a "non-domineering ego" a "better" choice because then the world is less distrubed? S:  I see the hurt. I see the anguish. And I find an escape by blaming another for my state. When would I stand up and see my world without blinkers and take responsibility for it? Am I that weak? Warmest regards rk:  LOOK one and all.  What is demonstrated, and demonstrated quite clearly, in my interactions with others on the newsgroups and on this list is the futility and hypocrisy of the technical instrument of intellect when used as an approach "to achieve" spiritual understanding. rk:  The fact is  YOU CAN’T GET THERE FROM HERE! rk:  One must understand oneself first,  Then one understands the world.  For in reality the world is no more than one’s own projections.  Understanding is the timeless moment of holistic atonement when division has ceased to create its unending, dualistic mischief. rk:  Ego is required to transform the unknown nondualistic energy into the known dualistic energy of concepts, ideas, and material technical constructs which arise thereof.  In other words, ego is necessary to complete the cycle of creation,.  A healthy ego is the servant of the holistic (holy) spirit of Intelligence in the act of creation. rk:  Until understanding IS, ego, based in the dead, time-bound aftermoment realm of memory-based, preference-oriented conditioned thoughts, is one conflicted, confused "puppy," is it not?   Such an ego is no more than an  unhealthy tyrant who talks out of both of his dualistically-acquired faces. rk:  Can the PRESENT society of man continue when such UNDERSTANDING takes place—-NO!! rk:  Can the society of mankind continue when such UNDERSTANDING takes place—YES!! rk:  How so, you ask?  To the untrained ear It sounds like just more hypocrisy.  But those who listen quietly are able to discern the difference. rk:  This fact is demonstrated every time there is a major calamity.  When widespread death and destruction take place at the hand of nature–floods, earthquakes, fires, hurricanes, etc.–people pull together.  They set aside their personal differences.  A switch of consciousness occurs.  Their egos now serve them.  They no longer find themselves slaves in the service of their egos. They now longer divide themselves by projected differences, but embrace others in the true oneness of their humanity.  That, my Brothers and Sisters, is the manifested difference between healthy and unhealthy egos. rk;  Why do some people love animals so?  For some it is the power they can have over another species where they fail to have it with other humans.  For others it is just a simple matter of not being in competition with another species. Thus the true love of the "Garden of Eden" is able to express itself.  One relates beyond the level of divisive intellectualism, and the "LOVE OF THE JUNGLE"  prevails.  Animals don’t kill each other over ideas, HUMANS DO.  Animals kill to survive, and those preyed upon are the weakest of the species who would not otherwise survive in a nondependent environment.  When the understanding of death enters one’s conditioned consciousness, the understanding of this paragraph will be the key to personal liberation for those who now rail at what they have read here. rk:  Only the HELL that man has made of his life, and through interference with the lives of countless other species through his so-called  intellectual "superiority," remains the legacy of the "LIVING DEAD." bequeathed upon generation upon generation of "UNHEALTHY EGOS" trained to operate in their likeness.  These are the learned TALK ABOUTs who know much, but understand diddly-squat. rk:  Every once in a while a Son Of God steps into HELL just to demonstrate what awaits others who are willing to take a quantum step out of the linear plane of intellectualism.  The effect of it causes disruption at the very core of HELL  The TALK ABOUTs rebel and attack when their usual hypocrisy of schmoozing fails them.  They throw caution to the wind, for their usual "positive images" used to play the power game with others no longer serve them.  They are mirrored by Truth and see themselves for what they Truly are,  and there’s not a damn thing they can do about it. rk:  Such TALK ABOUTs abound on this list.  It does not take a great deal of insight to see them; for their schmoozing, civilized, overcompensating, hypocritical manner is gross.  In a world that is so BASSACKWARDS, such grossness of aberrant behavior is seen as virtuous. rk:  Can man live and love and still function in this world? YES!  I am evidence of that.  I harm no one.  That simple momentum is mistakenly perceived  by power-oriented, dualistic intellects who would take such demonstration of love as a sign of weakness. rk:  To understand the truth of this, one must not take what has been said as a mere boast.  The subtlety of it cannot be grasped by a mere one-liner statement. Read the posts I have been involved in over the past several years. Pay attention to the momentum.  Get beyond the perennial "appearances" of misdirecting personalities that you are trained to focus upon in your entertainment fashioned consciousness.  With a quiet mind, observe the flow of momentum at the deeper levels of consciousness.  Pay specific attention to the initiation of attack, by whom, and how that "problem" has been worked out.  The lesson of love operating in the darkness of confusion is indeed a startling stimuli to the blind and the ignorant.  Do that, and you will see how your life can change.                      Ray Karczewski  In the illusion based world of man’s thought, there  exist   healthy egos and unhealthy egos –visit my home page and          meet the unhealthy ego’s worst nightmare!    Raymond Karczewski  http://www.cdsnet.net/Business/Ark/

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Re: awakening – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – gv: What does an intimate master/disciple relationship have to do with telling off large groups of people on the internet? bruce: The "intimate master/disciple relationship" is familiar to us from our reading and/or experience and therefore part of our preconceptions of what is acceptable.  The loud, unsubtle man kicking us squarely in our "spiritual" comfort zones is not acceptable based on preconceptions, his "loud, unsubtle" manner resembles that of those we are predisposed to view negatively, therefore we feel free to label him pejoratively and assume his presence is ego-driven in nature and deleterious in effect. gv: egotistical domineering behavior is just that. bruce:  Exactly, it is an overbearing manner or "style" of expression, to see whether it is "egotistical" would require looking beyond such appearances, as we so readily do with the abrupt and painful methods of a revered Zen roshi.  We seem to have a choice as to whether we enter the roshi’s monastery, likewise we needn’t read or heed what is posted here if it pains or offends us. mp: How is it that what Ray says may be compared with the actions of a Zen teacher? Are you suggesting that Ray’s words may come from a state of mind similar to a Zen teacher?

rk:  Why are you so concerned with the state of Ray’s mind and not sensitive to the Truth he speaks? rk:   I do not share your concern over Ray’s mind, and I AM RAY!                              Ray Karczewski  In the illusion based world of man’s thought, there  exist   healthy egos and unhealthy egos –visit my home page and          meet the unhealthy ego’s worst nightmare!    Raymond Karczewski  http://www.cdsnet.net/Business/Ark/

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Re: awakening k:  Have you three ever been introduced to the children’s rhyme "Three Blind Mice?"  You may schmooze each other all you want with your long withheld appreciation, but where has that left you.  The energy of your parochial commiseration points to the fact that none of you SEE!! gv: an utterly predictable, conditioned reaction.

rk:  If you are referring to your one-liner reactionary statement designed toward misdirecting attention away from the examination of my original statement, I must agree with you. rk:   An holisitic statement of fact is made by the nondualistic energy of spirit. That is the ground of being from which a "Man of Truth" communicates.  It is heard by a conditioned, dualistic consciousness which separates the nondualistic energy into illusory dualistic concepts of the message and the messenger. Now, fragmented, the original essence of the truth spoken is subverted by the fragmented listerner who displays a  preference toward manipulation of said energy at the letter-of-the-word level.  Wherein the original  message and the messenger were ONE (nondualistic)  expressed in the timeless moment of NOW,  they are now heard as TWO (dualistic) in the judgmental timebound aftermoment.  The message, being inarguable, leaves the fragmented listener with the option of  misdirecting attention away from the message and focusing attack upon the Messenger. rk:  Dilettante TALK ABOUTs will take the above simple statement and dissect it endlessly until they are thoroughly caught up in the web of their own confusion, spun from their own fragmented intellects.  Such is the playground of Hell where "unhealthy egos" seeking to have power over other "unhealthy egos" stumble ABOUT blindly in a life of interminable darkness,  lost in the maze of their own words. rk:  As Bruce would say, "MIRROR’S UP"!! Ray Karczewski  In the illusion based world of man’s thought, there  exist   healthy egos and unhealthy egos –visit my home page and          meet the unhealthy ego’s worst nightmare!    Raymond Karczewski  http://www.cdsnet.net/Business/Ark/

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Re: awakening – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – mp: In a world that is already full of suffering from egocentric labeling that obscures undivided life, I would welcome any teacher that can skillful point beyond that petty dualistic framework, but that seems different than labeling people blind, ignorant or asleep. << gv: this is as good a time as any to express my appreciation for the many instances over the last two years in which you gently pointed to what is although I was not always so ready to listen. Thanks Michael.  Amen u guys

rk:  Have you three ever been introduced to the children’s rhyme "Three Blind Mice?"  You may schmooze each other all you want with your long withheld appreciation, but where has that left you.  The energy of your parochial commiseration points to the fact that none of you SEE!! rk:  Evidence:  Michael if your words really reflected what you truly saw and understood for yourself, why would you still have the dualistic need to "welcome any teacher that can skillful(ly) point beyond that petty dualistic framework?"  Wouldn’t you do it yourself?                                            Ray Karczewski  In the illusion based world of man’s thought, there  exist   healthy egos and unhealthy egos –visit my home page and          meet the unhealthy ego’s worst nightmare!    Raymond Karczewski  http://www.cdsnet.net/Business/Ark/

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Re: awakening – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -remo: To put a  constraint upon the master’s manner of speech or behavior is a terrible mistake.  Historically, masters have done all sorts of weird things to awaken their disciples which, on the surface, make no sense at all. Who would suspect that a master’s deafening shout, or a painful blow with his staff can awaken? Why was Pai Chang, for instance,   awakened when Ma Tsu painfully twisted his nose?  (See post on "Opening the space between thoughts.")  What is Don Juan’s "cubic centimeter of chance" that can send Carlos  Castaneda to another world with a shove or a blow on his back? gv: why is a methodical, repetitious shouting and negative labeling confused with choiceless grabbing of the cubic centimeter of chance? What does an intimate master/disciple relationship have to do with telling off large groups of people on the internet?

rk:  Because "some" within the large groups of people on the Internet may possess the spiritual  "Eyes to see and the Ears to hear", and are indeed ready to invite change into their psychologically conflicted lives. rk:  The question which  must be asked is why do those who would profess to "understand" expend so much time and energy in the defense of a psychological mechanism responsible for the building and fortification of psychological walls which exclude and divide peoples and are responsible for the present milieu  that is the ignorant Status Quo?                        Ray Karczewski  In the illusion based world of man’s thought, there  exist   healthy egos and unhealthy egos –visit my home page and          meet the unhealthy ego’s worst nightmare!    Raymond Karczewski  http://www.cdsnet.net/Business/Ark/

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Re: awakening  mp: I’m not sure what you gentlemen think  awakening is. rK;  Michael, why do you sell short for the knowledge of what another "thinks" when the Truth is to be found in what they understand.  This is what is meant by the futility of TALK ABOUTs who tarry at the periphery. TRUTH is all there is. In matters of Spirit, ask nothing less of another and of  yourself but of the holistic (holy) spirit of Truth.   A  TALK OF is Truth personified.  That is what Jesus meant when He said, "I am the Truth, the Life, and the Way…." mp: I am interested in what is seen. As I ask the question, I look at life and look at what your words, or Bruce’s or whoever’s words point to. It appears that not everyone sees "awakening" in the same light or the same. So I am not just interested in adding knowledge, but in what the words point to in the context of thoughts on the list. mp: It seemed that awakening was being held in a framework of being something that occurs to or is experienced by some kind of a self. rk:  The framework you refer to is the dualistic matrix of conditioned  thought. It  accounts for the horrendous nature of a world inhabited by the sleeping masses. It is the realm where many dream they are awake while their outer imposed hypnotic trance state deepens allowing them to evade responsibility for their personal contribution to a world of  neverending wars, famine, poverty and exploitation of fellow man..  That is the nature of the thought based  Bassackward world of man.  An awakened man/woman of TRUTH  is anathema to the positive imaged misdirecting dreams which mask the real Hell that is going on. The disturbance felt in such a relationship is the awakening process (not to be confused with "awakened  state"). mp: The framework that I was pointing to is the one that sees awakened or sleeping men or women, or that men or women can experience an awakened state. That seems to be a misconception that distorts action coming from that framework. mp: Can you fit a timeless awakening into a time based framework of any kind of self, man or women? Does a time bound framework of a person, man or women have anything to do with awakening? Is there really anyone blind, ignorant or asleep or is that a time bound conceptual framework that obscures the timeless truth? rk:  Michael, here you play the childish game of intellectual "Ring around the Rosey."  It is all circular dualistic thought whose momentum attracts and sheds incremental support along the way  but ,in fact, goes nowhere.  This is the fragmented power game of debate played by intellectual TALK ABOUTs in the act of self/outer deception.  Michael, if you cannot actually manifest what you understand in your daily life, what you think is mere bullshit. rk:  All one needs to do is stop thinking, open their eyes, and SEE "WHAT IS" without twisting it according to one’s preconditioned judgments.  In other words, let the holistic (holy) spirit of Intelligence acting in atonement (direct perception in the living moment of NOW) form the words used in communication.  At present, the momentum of your words is distinctly arising out of the dead realm of memory-based knowledge.  You can camouflage it at the letter of the word level of empty rhetoric, but there’s not a damn thing you can do to cover up the self/other deception at the spirit of the word level when being observed by one who is spiritually sighted. rk:  Look at who rules the world of man.  Are they not the Intellectuals?  Are they not the worshippers of the "false god of knowledge?"   Now do you understand the meaning of the "Blind Leading the Blind?"                           Ray Karczewski  In the illusion based world of man’s thought, there  exist   healthy egos and unhealthy egos –visit my home page and          meet the unhealthy ego’s worst nightmare!    Raymond Karczewski  http://www.cdsnet.net/Business/Ark/

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