Christianity QA » Christian Religion » Agenda
Question:
"JWB" <bigtomhgla…@servo.com actually, my e-mail is jwb3333 at excite dot com> writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovet…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:DMAIc.62244$MB3.61866@attbi_s04… > > "JWB" <bigtomhgla…@servo.com actually, my e-mail is jwb3333 at excite > dot com> writes: > > > snip > > > I agree – but you have to realize to the conservative, they DO believe > the > > > fetus is a "person", and abortion is akin to killing people in the > street. > > I would give more credence to that opinion if they also believed in > > the same rights for homosexuals as everyone else, and didn’t believe > > in imposing their religous beliefs (in other wasy) on others, and if > > they believed in treating people different from themselves with > > respect. > you’re getting away from the point of "is pro-choice an agenda" and instead > using it as a springboard for an attack on general conservative positions, > which I have no interest in debating. I know you’re a liberal,
I think you got away from the "is pro-choice an agenda" question when you brought up roaming through the streets killing people indiscriminately, thus trying to make an analogy between that behavior and behavior that allows people to make their own choices about their _own_ lives and murderous behavior. Actually, I consider myself a conservative. But my views have more in common with a number of liberal points of view. It is a twisted situation though when so-called conservatives want to use the government to regulate behavior which doesn’t harm others, and when belonging tot he ACLU is considered anything _other_ than conservative! > and I’m…. > well… I’m nothing politically, really (I think it’s all an amusing > sideshow how people get so worked up over stupid shit they can’t control).
Some of us thing we can affect things. > > Remember the bumper sticker parodying the values of the right (in the > > U.S.) "Life begins at conception, and ends at birth?" If they believe > > human life is sacred, and that human life begins at conception, I’d > > like to see that belief practiced on lives that continue after birth too. > See, this is where people like you
What are "people like me?" > lose me – yea, I’m sure in all their > policies, conservatives care nothing for anyone once they are born. Ok, > gotcha.
Did you read the place where I said "parodying?" I’m not proposing that the bumper sticker is literally true, but if conservatives thing _embryos_ are so sacred, how about if they get behind public health care for infants and small children too, instead of just public care for embryos!
Response:
"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovet…@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:DMAIc.62244$MB3.61866@attbi_s04… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "JWB" <bigtomhgla…@servo.com actually, my e-mail is jwb3333 at excite dot com> writes: > > "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovet…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > news:QpAIc.62253$a24.57610@attbi_s03… > > > "JWB" <bigtomhgla…@servo.com actually, my e-mail is jwb3333 at excite > > dot com> writes: > > > > "Caren" <care…@msn.com> wrote in message > > > > news:3754f0b3.0407120735.141d325f@posting.google.com… > > > > > I have a question. Tony challenged my statement regarding his > > > > > "agenda". He replied with something to the effect of my having an > > > > > agenda. What I have been thinking about is this: Is being pro choice > > > > > an agenda? > > > > Yes. > > > > Is it an agenda when I don’t mind what choice a person > > > > > makes regarding an unplanned pregnancy? Or is it an agenda in itself? > > > > > I’m honestly confused about this. I don’t view personal choice as an > > > > > agenda, however maybe I’m just being ignorant. > > > > I’m quite certain you don’t believe in widespread personal choice in all > > > > matters. If you say you do, then you must be for complete anarchy. > > Anyone > > > > legally killing people in the street because they "choose" to. Adults > > > > legally coming into your home and stealing from you because hey, that’s > > > > their choice. > > > It is a common theoretical position to believe in widespread personal > > > choice as long as it doesn’t harm others. Such a position doesn’t > > > allow for the "personal choice" of killing people in the street. > > > In fact, many if not most conservatives claim to believe in this > > > prinicple. Until the "choice" involved is one they don’t like. > > I agree – but you have to realize to the conservative, they DO believe the > > fetus is a "person", and abortion is akin to killing people in the street. > I would give more credence to that opinion if they also believed in > the same rights for homosexuals as everyone else, and didn’t believe > in imposing their religous beliefs (in other wasy) on others, and if > they believed in treating people different from themselves with > respect.
you’re getting away from the point of "is pro-choice an agenda" and instead using it as a springboard for an attack on general conservative positions, which I have no interest in debating. I know you’re a liberal, and I’m…. well… I’m nothing politically, really (I think it’s all an amusing sideshow how people get so worked up over stupid shit they can’t control). > Remember the bumper sticker parodying the values of the right (in the > U.S.) "Life begins at conception, and ends at birth?" If they believe > human life is sacred, and that human life begins at conception, I’d > like to see that belief practiced on lives that continue after birth too.
See, this is where people like you lose me – yea, I’m sure in all their policies, conservatives care nothing for anyone once they are born. Ok, gotcha.
Response:
"Tony Miller" <t…@cigardiary.com> wrote in message
news:slrncf5h6u.bf5.tony@home.cigardiary.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On 12 Jul 2004 08:35:40 -0700, Caren > <care…@msn.com> wrote: > > I have a question. Tony challenged my statement regarding his > > "agenda". He replied with something to the effect of my having an > > agenda. What I have been thinking about is this: Is being pro choice > > an agenda? Is it an agenda when I don’t mind what choice a person > > makes regarding an unplanned pregnancy? Or is it an agenda in itself? > > I’m honestly confused about this. I don’t view personal choice as an > > agenda, however maybe I’m just being ignorant. > "Pro choice". What a nice, harmelss and *fair* kind of opinion. How > could anyone be against "choice"? Especially if you can salve your > conscience by saying (like John Kerry did) that *you* would never have an > abortion, but you would never interfere with another woman’s right to an > abortion (keeping your options open if you ever decided that you didn’t > like that "choice" you said you’d make). > > I understand how Tony views abortion. That is his "choice". However, > > if his choice is to tell me or others that I should not have 3 options > > if I unexpectantly become pregnant, he is imposing his belief system > > onto me (hence, agenda). If his wife became unexpectantly pregnant, I > > would not impose my belief onto her, I’d trust that she could make a > > choice that works for her and her family. > People impose their belief systme on you every day. Some people don’t > believe you ought to be able to drove over 55 MPH on the highway. Other > people believe that you shouldn’t steal from folks and yet others believe > that you shouldn’t kill your fellow man. There are others who believe > that your grass shouldn’t be over 12 inches long, and others believe > that you shouldn’t drive when you’re drunk. These people are imposing > their beliefs on you, but I don’t see you having a problem with that.
You know, for me the biggest dillema is the lack of a consistent framework on which legislation is based. It bothers me that there is biblical foundation for our laws. It gives the practice the strength of precidence. I do not think that the Christian religion has any more bearing on legislation than any other religion. Successful cohabitation of a lot of people in a limited space should be the framework of legislation, IMO. > In the case of abortion, I believe that the fertilized egg is a citizen, > fully deserving the protections our society offers. This is the same case > as when black people weren’t considered human, and white people were able > to own them (and they salved their consciences while they were mistreating > them by remembering that they weren’t really human).
What do we do when there is a lack of accord on this fundamental principle? There is a guy over in alt.parenting.solutions who actually thinks that a child is not a "human" until like 3 months because they have no concept of self. This argument can never be settled in any satisfactory way with one half of the debate focusing on when human life begins and the other half if focusing on protecting the rights of women, which historically were regularly trampled, leaving women a little sceptical that they have an equal share in "rights." > Well, the civil rights movement happened. And this new civil rights > movement is happening, and hopefully it will prevent the 1.2M deaths that > are occurring every year in the name of "choice".
Anyone who commits murder faces someone or something on the day of judgement. That is certainly no excuse to not try for justice in society. You know what I would love? I would love if all the Christians who claim to be interested in saving the lives of these children found some contructive way to educate, care for unwanted children or SOMETHING other than ram their view down non-believer’s throats through legisltation. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> -Tony > — > "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it’s time > to fertilize your lawn!" > Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. > Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.
Response:
"Bill in Co." <surly7curmudg…@earthlink.net> writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Doug Anderson wrote: > > "JWB" <bigtomhgla…@servo.com actually, my e-mail is jwb3333 at excite > dot > > com> writes: > >> "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovet…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > >> news:QpAIc.62253$a24.57610@attbi_s03… > >>> "JWB" <bigtomhgla…@servo.com actually, my e-mail is jwb3333 at excite > >> dot com> writes: > >>>> "Caren" <care…@msn.com> wrote in message > >>>> news:3754f0b3.0407120735.141d325f@posting.google.com… > >>>>> I have a question. Tony challenged my statement regarding his > >>>>> "agenda". He replied with something to the effect of my having an > >>>>> agenda. What I have been thinking about is this: Is being pro choice > >>>>> an agenda? > >>>> Yes. > >>>> Is it an agenda when I don’t mind what choice a person > >>>>> makes regarding an unplanned pregnancy? Or is it an agenda in itself? > >>>>> I’m honestly confused about this. I don’t view personal choice as an > >>>>> agenda, however maybe I’m just being ignorant. > >>>> I’m quite certain you don’t believe in widespread personal choice in > all > >>>> matters. If you say you do, then you must be for complete anarchy. > >> Anyone > >>>> legally killing people in the street because they "choose" to. Adults > >>>> legally coming into your home and stealing from you because hey, that’s > >>>> their choice. > >>> It is a common theoretical position to believe in widespread personal > >>> choice as long as it doesn’t harm others. Such a position doesn’t > >>> allow for the "personal choice" of killing people in the street. > >>> In fact, many if not most conservatives claim to believe in this > >>> prinicple. Until the "choice" involved is one they don’t like. > >> I agree – but you have to realize to the conservative, they DO believe > the > >> fetus is a "person", and abortion is akin to killing people in the > street. > > I would give more credence to that opinion if they also believed in > > the same rights for homosexuals as everyone else, > Well, I guess I’m old fashioned, as I still think marriage is between a man > and a woman. So in that respect, and only that one, you can call me > conservative.
No. In that respect _I’m_ the conservative because I think this is none of the government’s business.
Response:
Caren <care…@msn.com> wrote: > I have a question. Tony challenged my statement regarding his > "agenda". He replied with something to the effect of my having an > agenda. What I have been thinking about is this: Is being pro choice > an agenda? Is it an agenda when I don’t mind what choice a person > makes regarding an unplanned pregnancy? Or is it an agenda in itself? > I’m honestly confused about this. I don’t view personal choice as an > agenda, however maybe I’m just being ignorant.
An agenda is a plan of action with desired results (my definition; I din’t look it up). So no, leaving everyone to make up their own mind is not an agenda. Once you have a plan with results you want (say you lobby for government subsidies for abortion) then you have an agenda. Note that I don’t think that there is anything wrong with agenda – we all have them – it’s hidden agendas that can be worrisome.
Response:
"urf" <u…@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:9oAIc.33517$Xb4.15681@nwrdny02.gnilink.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Tony Miller" <t…@cigardiary.com> wrote in message > news:slrncf5i9j.bf5.tony@home.cigardiary.com… > > On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:11:25 GMT, urf > > <u…@nospam.com> wrote: > > > Life is so much easier for us liberals. > > Sure it is. You take our money and use it to make life easier for you > > liberals. > > -Tony > I take "your" money?????? > There’s a stretch. You actually made me laugh out loud. > Tony, I’m a millionaire. I paid my dues to society to get here. I don’t > live very big but I get more money from the government now than > when I only made $25k. I guess I should love the tax cut but I think > there are others who could use the money more than I could. Probably > you could use the money more than me.
I’m not a millionaire (yet), but we’ve made a nice chunk so far – and I agree – while tax cuts are nice, I get the feeling that a lot of people needed them more than I did. When we got that $300 (each) that Bush sent everyone a few years ago, we donated it to the local animal shelter where we got our two dogs.
Response:
"Emma Anne" <m…@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1ggt845.1r74m1w1stncbqN%mbjq@earthlink.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Caren <care…@msn.com> wrote: > > I have a question. Tony challenged my statement regarding his > > "agenda". He replied with something to the effect of my having an > > agenda. What I have been thinking about is this: Is being pro choice > > an agenda? Is it an agenda when I don’t mind what choice a person > > makes regarding an unplanned pregnancy? Or is it an agenda in itself? > > I’m honestly confused about this. I don’t view personal choice as an > > agenda, however maybe I’m just being ignorant. > An agenda is a plan of action with desired results (my definition; I > din’t look it up). So no, leaving everyone to make up their own mind is > not an agenda. Once you have a plan with results you want (say you > lobby for government subsidies for abortion) then you have an agenda. > Note that I don’t think that there is anything wrong with agenda – we > all have them – it’s hidden agendas that can be worrisome.
That’s something I forgot to mention to Caren – although i believe being pro-choice *is* an agenda, there’s nothing wrong with that.
Response:
"JWB" <bigtomhgla…@servo.com actually, my e-mail is jwb3333 at excite dot com> writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovet…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:QpAIc.62253$a24.57610@attbi_s03… > > "JWB" <bigtomhgla…@servo.com actually, my e-mail is jwb3333 at excite > dot com> writes: > > > "Caren" <care…@msn.com> wrote in message > > > news:3754f0b3.0407120735.141d325f@posting.google.com… > > > > I have a question. Tony challenged my statement regarding his > > > > "agenda". He replied with something to the effect of my having an > > > > agenda. What I have been thinking about is this: Is being pro choice > > > > an agenda? > > > Yes. > > > Is it an agenda when I don’t mind what choice a person > > > > makes regarding an unplanned pregnancy? Or is it an agenda in itself? > > > > I’m honestly confused about this. I don’t view personal choice as an > > > > agenda, however maybe I’m just being ignorant. > > > I’m quite certain you don’t believe in widespread personal choice in all > > > matters. If you say you do, then you must be for complete anarchy. > Anyone > > > legally killing people in the street because they "choose" to. Adults > > > legally coming into your home and stealing from you because hey, that’s > > > their choice. > > It is a common theoretical position to believe in widespread personal > > choice as long as it doesn’t harm others. Such a position doesn’t > > allow for the "personal choice" of killing people in the street. > > In fact, many if not most conservatives claim to believe in this > > prinicple. Until the "choice" involved is one they don’t like. > I agree – but you have to realize to the conservative, they DO believe the > fetus is a "person", and abortion is akin to killing people in the street.
I would give more credence to that opinion if they also believed in the same rights for homosexuals as everyone else, and didn’t believe in imposing their religous beliefs (in other wasy) on others, and if they believed in treating people different from themselves with respect. Remember the bumper sticker parodying the values of the right (in the U.S.) "Life begins at conception, and ends at birth?" If they believe human life is sacred, and that human life begins at conception, I’d like to see that belief practiced on lives that continue after birth too.
Response:
"Caren" <care…@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0407120735.141d325f@posting.google.com… > I have a question. Tony challenged my statement regarding his > "agenda". He replied with something to the effect of my having an > agenda. What I have been thinking about is this: Is being pro choice > an agenda? Is it an agenda when I don’t mind what choice a person > makes regarding an unplanned pregnancy? Or is it an agenda in itself?
In the context of the legal debate, I would say yes it is an agenda. For some people, the fact that abortion is legal is awful and are actively seeking that it be overturned. Your position would be in opposition to this, and thus an agenda. Side note. I do not understand this. In the Old Testament, it was good enough when people did what God told them to do. So laws governing morality made sense. But Jesus’ message was different. Rightness had to be in your heart, not just your behavior. So what good does legislating this morality? It does not make the compliant ones any more moral. If they think they are protecting the life of the child, I guess that is crazy. There is more to protecting the life of a child than preventing the mother from aborting. Who is going to protect the rest of the child’s life when the mother does not want it? The adoption market is not THAT strong. > I’m honestly confused about this. I don’t view personal choice as an > agenda, however maybe I’m just being ignorant. > I understand how Tony views abortion. That is his "choice". However, > if his choice is to tell me or others that I should not have 3 options > if I unexpectantly become pregnant, he is imposing his belief system > onto me (hence, agenda). If his wife became unexpectantly pregnant, I > would not impose my belief onto her, I’d trust that she could make a > choice that works for her and her family.
Because it is a hot legal topic.
Response:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:39:35 -0400, glunk – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<st…@whackthisvsac.org> wrote: > "Caren" <care…@msn.com> wrote in message > news:3754f0b3.0407120735.141d325f@posting.google.com… >> I have a question. Tony challenged my statement regarding his >> "agenda". He replied with something to the effect of my having an >> agenda. What I have been thinking about is this: Is being pro choice >> an agenda? Is it an agenda when I don’t mind what choice a person >> makes regarding an unplanned pregnancy? Or is it an agenda in itself? > In the context of the legal debate, I would say yes it is an agenda. For > some people, the fact that abortion is legal is awful and are actively > seeking that it be overturned. Your position would be in opposition to this, > and thus an agenda. > Side note. I do not understand this. In the Old Testament, it was good > enough when people did what God told them to do. So laws governing morality > made sense. But Jesus’ message was different. Rightness had to be in your > heart, not just your behavior. So what good does legislating this morality? > It does not make the compliant ones any more moral. If they think they are > protecting the life of the child, I guess that is crazy. There is more to > protecting the life of a child than preventing the mother from aborting. Who > is going to protect the rest of the child’s life when the mother does not > want it? The adoption market is not THAT strong.
LOL!!!!! -Tony — "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it’s time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.
Response:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:34:46 GMT, JWB – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<bigtomhgla…@servo.com> wrote: > "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovet…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:DMAIc.62244$MB3.61866@attbi_s04… >> "JWB" <bigtomhgla…@servo.com actually, my e-mail is jwb3333 at excite > dot com> writes: >> > "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovet…@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> > news:QpAIc.62253$a24.57610@attbi_s03… >> > > "JWB" <bigtomhgla…@servo.com actually, my e-mail is jwb3333 at > excite >> > dot com> writes: >> > > > "Caren" <care…@msn.com> wrote in message >> > > > news:3754f0b3.0407120735.141d325f@posting.google.com… >> > > > > I have a question. Tony challenged my statement regarding his >> > > > > "agenda". He replied with something to the effect of my having an >> > > > > agenda. What I have been thinking about is this: Is being pro > choice >> > > > > an agenda? >> > > > Yes. >> > > > Is it an agenda when I don’t mind what choice a person >> > > > > makes regarding an unplanned pregnancy? Or is it an agenda in > itself? >> > > > > I’m honestly confused about this. I don’t view personal choice > as an >> > > > > agenda, however maybe I’m just being ignorant. >> > > > I’m quite certain you don’t believe in widespread personal choice in > all >> > > > matters. If you say you do, then you must be for complete anarchy. >> > Anyone >> > > > legally killing people in the street because they "choose" to. > Adults >> > > > legally coming into your home and stealing from you because hey, > that’s >> > > > their choice. >> > > It is a common theoretical position to believe in widespread personal >> > > choice as long as it doesn’t harm others. Such a position doesn’t >> > > allow for the "personal choice" of killing people in the street. >> > > In fact, many if not most conservatives claim to believe in this >> > > prinicple. Until the "choice" involved is one they don’t like. >> > I agree – but you have to realize to the conservative, they DO believe > the >> > fetus is a "person", and abortion is akin to killing people in the > street. >> I would give more credence to that opinion if they also believed in >> the same rights for homosexuals as everyone else, and didn’t believe >> in imposing their religous beliefs (in other wasy) on others, and if >> they believed in treating people different from themselves with >> respect. > you’re getting away from the point of "is pro-choice an agenda" and instead > using it as a springboard for an attack on general conservative positions, > which I have no interest in debating. I know you’re a liberal, and I’m…. > well… I’m nothing politically, really (I think it’s all an amusing > sideshow how people get so worked up over stupid shit they can’t control).
I don’t believe this is true, or I wouldn’t get "worked up". I think we can profoundly affect how our laws are made and I, for one, will be at the forefront of trying to affect that change. >> Remember the bumper sticker parodying the values of the right (in the >> U.S.) "Life begins at conception, and ends at birth?" If they believe >> human life is sacred, and that human life begins at conception, I’d >> like to see that belief practiced on lives that continue after birth too. > See, this is where people like you lose me – yea, I’m sure in all their > policies, conservatives care nothing for anyone once they are born. Ok, > gotcha.
And I saw a bumper sticker that said: "Abort a fetus, kill a liberal". So what? -Tony — "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it’s time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Doug Anderson wrote: > "JWB" <bigtomhgla…@servo.com actually, my e-mail is jwb3333 at excite dot > com> writes: >> "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovet…@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> news:QpAIc.62253$a24.57610@attbi_s03… >>> "JWB" <bigtomhgla…@servo.com actually, my e-mail is jwb3333 at excite >> dot com> writes: >>>> "Caren" <care…@msn.com> wrote in message >>>> news:3754f0b3.0407120735.141d325f@posting.google.com… >>>>> I have a question. Tony challenged my statement regarding his >>>>> "agenda". He replied with something to the effect of my having an >>>>> agenda. What I have been thinking about is this: Is being pro choice >>>>> an agenda? >>>> Yes. >>>> Is it an agenda when I don’t mind what choice a person >>>>> makes regarding an unplanned pregnancy? Or is it an agenda in itself? >>>>> I’m honestly confused about this. I don’t view personal choice as an >>>>> agenda, however maybe I’m just being ignorant. >>>> I’m quite certain you don’t believe in widespread personal choice in all >>>> matters. If you say you do, then you must be for complete anarchy. >> Anyone >>>> legally killing people in the street because they "choose" to. Adults >>>> legally coming into your home and stealing from you because hey, that’s >>>> their choice. >>> It is a common theoretical position to believe in widespread personal >>> choice as long as it doesn’t harm others. Such a position doesn’t >>> allow for the "personal choice" of killing people in the street. >>> In fact, many if not most conservatives claim to believe in this >>> prinicple. Until the "choice" involved is one they don’t like. >> I agree – but you have to realize to the conservative, they DO believe the >> fetus is a "person", and abortion is akin to killing people in the street. > I would give more credence to that opinion if they also believed in > the same rights for homosexuals as everyone else,
Well, I guess I’m old fashioned, as I still think marriage is between a man and a woman. So in that respect, and only that one, you can call me conservative. I’m after protecting what I think is best for society – at large. Just look at the breakdown in society today! And I say this, despite having had some good gay friends. I think gays can live together and get something else to signify their bond – but not "marriage", per se. ISTJ, Guardian
Response:
"Tony Miller" <t…@cigardiary.com> wrote in message
news:slrncf5i9j.bf5.tony@home.cigardiary.com… > On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:11:25 GMT, urf > <u…@nospam.com> wrote: > > Life is so much easier for us liberals. > Sure it is. You take our money and use it to make life easier for you > liberals. > -Tony
I take "your" money?????? There’s a stretch. You actually made me laugh out loud. Tony, I’m a millionaire. I paid my dues to society to get here. I don’t live very big but I get more money from the government now than when I only made $25k. I guess I should love the tax cut but I think there are others who could use the money more than I could. Probably you could use the money more than me.
Response:
"JWB" <bigtomhgla…@servo.com actually, my e-mail is jwb3333 at excite dot com> writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Caren" <care…@msn.com> wrote in message > news:3754f0b3.0407120735.141d325f@posting.google.com… > > I have a question. Tony challenged my statement regarding his > > "agenda". He replied with something to the effect of my having an > > agenda. What I have been thinking about is this: Is being pro choice > > an agenda? > Yes. > Is it an agenda when I don’t mind what choice a person > > makes regarding an unplanned pregnancy? Or is it an agenda in itself? > > I’m honestly confused about this. I don’t view personal choice as an > > agenda, however maybe I’m just being ignorant. > I’m quite certain you don’t believe in widespread personal choice in all > matters. If you say you do, then you must be for complete anarchy. Anyone > legally killing people in the street because they "choose" to. Adults > legally coming into your home and stealing from you because hey, that’s > their choice.
It is a common theoretical position to believe in widespread personal choice as long as it doesn’t harm others. Such a position doesn’t allow for the "personal choice" of killing people in the street. In fact, many if not most conservatives claim to believe in this prinicple. Until the "choice" involved is one they don’t like.
Response:
"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovet…@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:QpAIc.62253$a24.57610@attbi_s03… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "JWB" <bigtomhgla…@servo.com actually, my e-mail is jwb3333 at excite dot com> writes: > > "Caren" <care…@msn.com> wrote in message > > news:3754f0b3.0407120735.141d325f@posting.google.com… > > > I have a question. Tony challenged my statement regarding his > > > "agenda". He replied with something to the effect of my having an > > > agenda. What I have been thinking about is this: Is being pro choice > > > an agenda? > > Yes. > > Is it an agenda when I don’t mind what choice a person > > > makes regarding an unplanned pregnancy? Or is it an agenda in itself? > > > I’m honestly confused about this. I don’t view personal choice as an > > > agenda, however maybe I’m just being ignorant. > > I’m quite certain you don’t believe in widespread personal choice in all > > matters. If you say you do, then you must be for complete anarchy. Anyone > > legally killing people in the street because they "choose" to. Adults > > legally coming into your home and stealing from you because hey, that’s > > their choice. > It is a common theoretical position to believe in widespread personal > choice as long as it doesn’t harm others. Such a position doesn’t > allow for the "personal choice" of killing people in the street. > In fact, many if not most conservatives claim to believe in this > prinicple. Until the "choice" involved is one they don’t like.
I agree – but you have to realize to the conservative, they DO believe the fetus is a "person", and abortion is akin to killing people in the street. Personally, I really don’t care either way, although I’d like to see the fathers have a say in what happens
Response:
"Tony Miller" <t…@cigardiary.com> wrote in message
news:slrncf5h6u.bf5.tony@home.cigardiary.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On 12 Jul 2004 08:35:40 -0700, Caren > <care…@msn.com> wrote: > > I have a question. Tony challenged my statement regarding his > > "agenda". He replied with something to the effect of my having an > > agenda. What I have been thinking about is this: Is being pro choice > > an agenda? Is it an agenda when I don’t mind what choice a person > > makes regarding an unplanned pregnancy? Or is it an agenda in itself? > > I’m honestly confused about this. I don’t view personal choice as an > > agenda, however maybe I’m just being ignorant. > "Pro choice". What a nice, harmelss and *fair* kind of opinion. How > could anyone be against "choice"? Especially if you can salve your > conscience by saying (like John Kerry did) that *you* would never have an > abortion, but you would never interfere with another woman’s right to an > abortion (keeping your options open if you ever decided that you didn’t > like that "choice" you said you’d make). > > I understand how Tony views abortion. That is his "choice". However, > > if his choice is to tell me or others that I should not have 3 options > > if I unexpectantly become pregnant, he is imposing his belief system > > onto me (hence, agenda). If his wife became unexpectantly pregnant, I > > would not impose my belief onto her, I’d trust that she could make a > > choice that works for her and her family. > People impose their belief systme on you every day. Some people don’t > believe you ought to be able to drove over 55 MPH on the highway. Other > people believe that you shouldn’t steal from folks and yet others believe > that you shouldn’t kill your fellow man. There are others who believe > that your grass shouldn’t be over 12 inches long, and others believe > that you shouldn’t drive when you’re drunk. These people are imposing > their beliefs on you, but I don’t see you having a problem with that. > In the case of abortion, I believe that the fertilized egg is a citizen, > fully deserving the protections our society offers. This is the same case > as when black people weren’t considered human, and white people were able > to own them (and they salved their consciences while they were mistreating > them by remembering that they weren’t really human). > Well, the civil rights movement happened. And this new civil rights > movement is happening, and hopefully it will prevent the 1.2M deaths that > are occurring every year in the name of "choice". > -Tony
Tony, You get far too excited about everything. On the abortion issue we could be very similar. For myself and for my family, I don’t believe in abortion. I would make every effort to bring any pregnancy to term. I would even take care of any baby that came from a family pregnancy, wanted or not but…… what I wouldn’t do is tell you what to do. I believe too much in America and the implied freedoms that ideal stands for.
Response:
"Caren" <care…@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0407120735.141d325f@posting.google.com… > I have a question. Tony challenged my statement regarding his > "agenda". He replied with something to the effect of my having an > agenda. What I have been thinking about is this: Is being pro choice > an agenda?
Yes. Is it an agenda when I don’t mind what choice a person > makes regarding an unplanned pregnancy? Or is it an agenda in itself? > I’m honestly confused about this. I don’t view personal choice as an > agenda, however maybe I’m just being ignorant.
I’m quite certain you don’t believe in widespread personal choice in all matters. If you say you do, then you must be for complete anarchy. Anyone legally killing people in the street because they "choose" to. Adults legally coming into your home and stealing from you because hey, that’s their choice. so, that being noted, your agenda is to see that there IS personal choice on the issue of abortion. So yes, in being pro-choice, you DO have an agenda. > I understand how Tony views abortion. That is his "choice". However, > if his choice is to tell me or others that I should not have 3 options > if I unexpectantly become pregnant, he is imposing his belief system > onto me (hence, agenda). If his wife became unexpectantly pregnant, I > would not impose my belief onto her, I’d trust that she could make a > choice that works for her and her family.
I don’t have a uterus, so I feel it’s my duty to stay out of the debate.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tony Miller wrote: > On 12 Jul 2004 08:35:40 -0700, Caren > <care…@msn.com> wrote: >> I have a question. Tony challenged my statement regarding his >> "agenda". He replied with something to the effect of my having an >> agenda. What I have been thinking about is this: Is being pro choice >> an agenda? Is it an agenda when I don’t mind what choice a person >> makes regarding an unplanned pregnancy? Or is it an agenda in itself? >> I’m honestly confused about this. I don’t view personal choice as an >> agenda, however maybe I’m just being ignorant. > "Pro choice". What a nice, harmelss and *fair* kind of opinion. How > could anyone be against "choice"? Especially if you can salve your > conscience by saying (like John Kerry did) that *you* would never have an > abortion, but you would never interfere with another woman’s right to an > abortion (keeping your options open if you ever decided that you didn’t > like that "choice" you said you’d make). >> I understand how Tony views abortion. That is his "choice". However, >> if his choice is to tell me or others that I should not have 3 options >> if I unexpectantly become pregnant, he is imposing his belief system >> onto me (hence, agenda). If his wife became unexpectantly pregnant, I >> would not impose my belief onto her, I’d trust that she could make a >> choice that works for her and her family. > People impose their belief systme on you every day. Some people don’t > believe you ought to be able to drove over 55 MPH on the highway. Other > people believe that you shouldn’t steal from folks and yet others believe > that you shouldn’t kill your fellow man. There are others who believe > that your grass shouldn’t be over 12 inches long, and others believe > that you shouldn’t drive when you’re drunk. These people are imposing > their beliefs on you, but I don’t see you having a problem with that. > In the case of abortion, I believe that the fertilized egg is a citizen, > fully deserving the protections our society offers. This is the same case > as when black people weren’t considered human, and white people were able > to own them (and they salved their consciences while they were mistreating > them by remembering that they weren’t really human). > Well, the civil rights movement happened. And this new civil rights > movement is happening, and hopefully it will prevent the 1.2M deaths that > are occurring every year in the name of "choice". > -Tony
This is really too much. Unbelieveable.
Response:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:11:25 GMT, urf <u…@nospam.com> wrote: > Life is so much easier for us liberals.
Sure it is. You take our money and use it to make life easier for you liberals. -Tony – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovet…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:VOyIc.75527$Oq2.55427@attbi_s52… >> "Chrys" <notarealaddr…@lycos.com> writes: >> > "Caren" <care…@msn.com> wrote in message >> > news:3754f0b3.0407120735.141d325f@posting.google.com… >> > > I have a question. Tony challenged my statement regarding his >> > > "agenda". He replied with something to the effect of my having an >> > > agenda. What I have been thinking about is this: Is being pro choice >> > > an agenda? Is it an agenda when I don’t mind what choice a person >> > > makes regarding an unplanned pregnancy? Or is it an agenda in itself? >> > > I’m honestly confused about this. I don’t view personal choice as an >> > > agenda, however maybe I’m just being ignorant. >> > > I understand how Tony views abortion. That is his "choice". However, >> > > if his choice is to tell me or others that I should not have 3 options >> > > if I unexpectantly become pregnant, he is imposing his belief system >> > > onto me (hence, agenda). If his wife became unexpectantly pregnant, I >> > > would not impose my belief onto her, I’d trust that she could make a >> > > choice that works for her and her family. >> > You have to keep in mind how pro-life people view abortion. >> You have to also keep in mind how conservatives view freedom and >> liberty. Those words are rallying cries for them until they conflict >> with something else that they believe in. Then freedom or liberty >> become an "agenda."
– "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it’s time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.
Response:
"urf" <u…@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:1DzIc.16390$Al5.5585@nwrdny03.gnilink.net… > Life is so much easier for us liberals.
Hard to say urf. Yesterday I heard the observation that Jews regard "the law" (starting with the 10 commandments) as a gift from God that makes life easier. It was compared to a baby’s playpen — within the confines of the playpen you are free to do anything. Which is easier urf — simply accepting that no abortion is right or having to agonize over how mature the foetus has to be, under what circumstance it was conceived, how healthy it is likely to be, and into what environment will it be born? Or were you speaking sarcastically? Ted
Response:
Life is so much easier for us liberals. "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovet…@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:VOyIc.75527$Oq2.55427@attbi_s52… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Chrys" <notarealaddr…@lycos.com> writes: > > "Caren" <care…@msn.com> wrote in message > > news:3754f0b3.0407120735.141d325f@posting.google.com… > > > I have a question. Tony challenged my statement regarding his > > > "agenda". He replied with something to the effect of my having an > > > agenda. What I have been thinking about is this: Is being pro choice > > > an agenda? Is it an agenda when I don’t mind what choice a person > > > makes regarding an unplanned pregnancy? Or is it an agenda in itself? > > > I’m honestly confused about this. I don’t view personal choice as an > > > agenda, however maybe I’m just being ignorant. > > > I understand how Tony views abortion. That is his "choice". However, > > > if his choice is to tell me or others that I should not have 3 options > > > if I unexpectantly become pregnant, he is imposing his belief system > > > onto me (hence, agenda). If his wife became unexpectantly pregnant, I > > > would not impose my belief onto her, I’d trust that she could make a > > > choice that works for her and her family. > > You have to keep in mind how pro-life people view abortion. > You have to also keep in mind how conservatives view freedom and > liberty. Those words are rallying cries for them until they conflict > with something else that they believe in. Then freedom or liberty > become an "agenda."
Response:
On 12 Jul 2004 08:35:40 -0700, Caren <care…@msn.com> wrote: > I have a question. Tony challenged my statement regarding his > "agenda". He replied with something to the effect of my having an > agenda. What I have been thinking about is this: Is being pro choice > an agenda? Is it an agenda when I don’t mind what choice a person > makes regarding an unplanned pregnancy? Or is it an agenda in itself? > I’m honestly confused about this. I don’t view personal choice as an > agenda, however maybe I’m just being ignorant.
"Pro choice". What a nice, harmelss and *fair* kind of opinion. How could anyone be against "choice"? Especially if you can salve your conscience by saying (like John Kerry did) that *you* would never have an abortion, but you would never interfere with another woman’s right to an abortion (keeping your options open if you ever decided that you didn’t like that "choice" you said you’d make). > I understand how Tony views abortion. That is his "choice". However, > if his choice is to tell me or others that I should not have 3 options > if I unexpectantly become pregnant, he is imposing his belief system > onto me (hence, agenda). If his wife became unexpectantly pregnant, I > would not impose my belief onto her, I’d trust that she could make a > choice that works for her and her family.
People impose their belief systme on you every day. Some people don’t believe you ought to be able to drove over 55 MPH on the highway. Other people believe that you shouldn’t steal from folks and yet others believe that you shouldn’t kill your fellow man. There are others who believe that your grass shouldn’t be over 12 inches long, and others believe that you shouldn’t drive when you’re drunk. These people are imposing their beliefs on you, but I don’t see you having a problem with that. In the case of abortion, I believe that the fertilized egg is a citizen, fully deserving the protections our society offers. This is the same case as when black people weren’t considered human, and white people were able to own them (and they salved their consciences while they were mistreating them by remembering that they weren’t really human). Well, the civil rights movement happened. And this new civil rights movement is happening, and hopefully it will prevent the 1.2M deaths that are occurring every year in the name of "choice". -Tony — "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it’s time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Chrys" <notarealaddr…@lycos.com> writes: > "Caren" <care…@msn.com> wrote in message > news:3754f0b3.0407120735.141d325f@posting.google.com… > > I have a question. Tony challenged my statement regarding his > > "agenda". He replied with something to the effect of my having an > > agenda. What I have been thinking about is this: Is being pro choice > > an agenda? Is it an agenda when I don’t mind what choice a person > > makes regarding an unplanned pregnancy? Or is it an agenda in itself? > > I’m honestly confused about this. I don’t view personal choice as an > > agenda, however maybe I’m just being ignorant. > > I understand how Tony views abortion. That is his "choice". However, > > if his choice is to tell me or others that I should not have 3 options > > if I unexpectantly become pregnant, he is imposing his belief system > > onto me (hence, agenda). If his wife became unexpectantly pregnant, I > > would not impose my belief onto her, I’d trust that she could make a > > choice that works for her and her family. > You have to keep in mind how pro-life people view abortion.
You have to also keep in mind how conservatives view freedom and liberty. Those words are rallying cries for them until they conflict with something else that they believe in. Then freedom or liberty become an "agenda."
Response:
I have a question. Tony challenged my statement regarding his "agenda". He replied with something to the effect of my having an agenda. What I have been thinking about is this: Is being pro choice an agenda? Is it an agenda when I don’t mind what choice a person makes regarding an unplanned pregnancy? Or is it an agenda in itself? I’m honestly confused about this. I don’t view personal choice as an agenda, however maybe I’m just being ignorant. I understand how Tony views abortion. That is his "choice". However, if his choice is to tell me or others that I should not have 3 options if I unexpectantly become pregnant, he is imposing his belief system onto me (hence, agenda). If his wife became unexpectantly pregnant, I would not impose my belief onto her, I’d trust that she could make a choice that works for her and her family.
Response:
"Caren" <care…@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0407120735.141d325f@posting.google.com… > I have a question. Tony challenged my statement regarding his > "agenda". He replied with something to the effect of my having an > agenda. What I have been thinking about is this: Is being pro choice > an agenda? Is it an agenda when I don’t mind what choice a person > makes regarding an unplanned pregnancy? Or is it an agenda in itself? > I’m honestly confused about this. I don’t view personal choice as an > agenda, however maybe I’m just being ignorant. > I understand how Tony views abortion. That is his "choice". However, > if his choice is to tell me or others that I should not have 3 options > if I unexpectantly become pregnant, he is imposing his belief system > onto me (hence, agenda). If his wife became unexpectantly pregnant, I > would not impose my belief onto her, I’d trust that she could make a > choice that works for her and her family.
You have to keep in mind how pro-life people view abortion. From the moment conception happens, they’re viewing the zygote as a full human being and any interference as murder. His reaction is the same as yours would be if you heard someone saying it was valid to kill a 5 year old child if the parent was tired of dealing with it. You would not see murdering a five year old as being a valid choice, and that is how he would see abortion.
no comment untill now