Christianity QA » Christian Living » Me and my wife have a question/poll….
Question:
Someone said: SORRY BUT I WILL NEVER OBEY THE POPE’S COMMANDS. He is an old senile *MAN*. Jesus is what brought me into this faith. Not a glorified human dressed in white. you speak for the whole church as far as this? You *MUST* follow the Pope’s commands? Anyone else in this newsgroup think the same? The current pope is, indeed, a senile old man. Remarkable for his age.
He has Parkinson’s, not senility. Learn the difference.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you want to find the answers, you must drop the senile Pope routine. If you approach your quest with an open mind and open heart, you may find that there is more to the story than what is on the surface. Approach wondering what are the good reasons certain actions are considered immoral, instead of disagreeing without knowing the full story. A Catholic should inform their conscience before dissenting from Church teachings. So you’re saying if I want an answer to the question I have I should think that the pope is in his mental faculty’s to run the church You must realize that the Pope does not constitute the entire Church, and that he’s not absolute monarch over every diocese. I understand from our Archbishop (and the Archbishops of Montreal have never been ones to be papal yes-men) that the Pope is not senile, it’s just his body that’s falling to bits right now. So you are also acting with incomplete knowledge. I’m sorry but I disagree. If a man can’t even stand straight or kneel down I don’t think he should run the church or anything with as many members (in the millions or more FDR did pretty well in WW2 despite his physical limitations. I think that most of your arguments here are unfounded, and are more a reflection of your disagreement with Catholicism than anything else. Oh brother, 3rd reply with the same thing, I must be an idiot that can’t express myself ( please don’t agree ) THere’s a big difference between thinking clearly and being able to walk. I’m saying a person that doesn’t think right in his old age shouldn’t be making dicisions (sp?) for millions of a whole religion.
Once again- he has Parkinson’s disease. Haven’t you taken that in yet? It’s been repeated a couple times already. He hasn’t displayed signs of senility- just of loss of muscle control associated with the disease.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m sorry but I disagree. If a man can’t even stand straight or kneel down I don’t think he should run the church or anything with as many members (in the millions or more FDR did pretty well in WW2 despite his physical limitations. I think that most of your arguments here are unfounded, and are more a reflection of your disagreement with Catholicism than anything else. Oh brother, 3rd reply with the same thing, I must be an idiot that can’t express myself ( please don’t agree ) THere’s a big difference between thinking clearly and being able to walk. I’m saying a person that doesn’t think right in his old age shouldn’t be making dicisions (sp?) for millions of a whole religion.
And that’s not what you said, btw. Just look above for your quote. So are you NOW saying that if he *can* think clearly but is otherwise incapacitated there’s not much to be concerned about? Might want to consider question that since that may be the situation soon.
Response:
Someone said: SORRY BUT I WILL NEVER OBEY THE POPE’S COMMANDS. He is an old senile *MAN*. Jesus is what brought me into this faith. Not a glorified human dressed in white. you speak for the whole church as far as this? You *MUST* follow the Pope’s commands? Anyone else in this newsgroup think the same?
The current pope is, indeed, a senile old man. Remarkable for his age. He obviously should resign and let a younger man take over. Why doesn’t he? Because of pride? Because he thinks he is better than anyone else who might take over? Was Peter the first "pope"? Obviously not. And he sure wasn’t infallible. Paul shouted him down when they met in Antioch, and Paul did not claim to be pope, or infallible. He just claimed to be right. student
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – SORRY BUT I WILL NEVER OBEY THE POPE’S COMMANDS. He is an old senile *MAN*. Jesus is what brought me into this faith. Not a glorified human dressed in white. you speak for the whole church as far as this? You *MUST* follow the Pope’s commands? Anyone else in this newsgroup think the same? I don’t agree with the statement as it stands. Catholics are not obliged to follow the pope’s commands, in the sense that he, Karol Wotija, might say, "do this", "don’t do that". We are obliged to follow the teachings of the church – the two are not synonymous. It’s the word "commands" here, which might be the problem, and a conflation of the idea of "a man" and "a role". In many instances, the teachings of the church are articulated through the pope’s (or more properly, popes’ ) works, such as encyclicals, etc. But these are *not* the teachings of one person, but rather of the church. I have a grave obligation to form my conscience to the best of my ability to be in accord with the teachings of the church. The pope’s sermons, etc., articulate this, in exactly the same way as those of any ordained or approved preacher’s should, but the bedrock of belief rests on the teachings of the church. "The pope’s commands" may be a short hand for all of the above, but it’s not overly clear. It may also be shorthand for the very, very, very rare exercise of ex cathedra statements – if so, it’s again not clear. Ex cathedra statements are in no way commands – they are (again) statements of the teaching of the church. What is important is not the commands of one person (Karol Wotija, theologian, exskier, etc.), but rather the teaching of the church. This is the difference between the man and the role. — janet Sorry but I’ve never been too familiar with technical terms of the church.
What was technical in the above? (All of it left in). The distinction between the teaching of the church, embedded in that tradition for hundreds or more years, verifiable in documents, and the words of a person speaking off their own bat, seems a fairly obvious one to me. I still stand on my statement. I will not abide by an amendment to the 10 commandments from the pope.
Nor would many of us. But since he’s not done that, and is hardly likely to (after all, in 2000 years, it hasn’t happened), I don’t understand the problem…? He is not chosen by a divine being but by men, men who have sexual feelings.
??? There are a number of issues there. One is that one hopes and prays that the Spirit does have something to do with the choice of pope, but I do take your point that cardinals are all human. But what in heaven’s name does the fact that they have sexual feelings have to do with it? There aren’t many humans who *don’t* have sexual feelings – it’s part of being human, surely? They are not flawed, they are just human. We all have this feeling. In conclusion, I say a human being voted in by humans ( all of us being imperfect ) we’re no one to decide what God wants from us, we can only assume, and we all know what that makes us. —
I’ve completely lost what you are saying here. You say that would not accept commands from the pope. I agree, and point out that the teachings are those of the church as a whole rather than the pope. You point out he was elected by cardinals, and get no argument from me. But you then introduce the idea of additional commandments (don’t know where that came from) and the (AFAICS) irrelevant but obvious fact that cardinals are humans with feelings. But as for your last sentence, if we can’t decide what God wants from us, who can? That’s the whole point about discernment of vocation – I *have* to decide what God wants from me, that’s what being a responsible adult Christian is all about. ?? — janet
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m sorry but I disagree. If a man can’t even stand straight or kneel down I don’t think he should run the church or anything with as many members (in the millions or more). Physical disability does not bar people from employment in the secular world, why should it in the religious one?! I’m not saying the ability to move your arms and legs or see or hear. I’m saying the ability to think clearly. —
And what evidence is there that John Paul is not able to think clearly? The only thing you’ve mentioned is a physical degeneration, not a mental one. — janet
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you want to find the answers, you must drop the senile Pope routine. If you approach your quest with an open mind and open heart, you may find that there is more to the story than what is on the surface. Approach wondering what are the good reasons certain actions are considered immoral, instead of disagreeing without knowing the full story. A Catholic should inform their conscience before dissenting from Church teachings. So you’re saying if I want an answer to the question I have I should think that the pope is in his mental faculty’s to run the church You must realize that the Pope does not constitute the entire Church, and that he’s not absolute monarch over every diocese. I understand from our Archbishop (and the Archbishops of Montreal have never been ones to be papal yes-men) that the Pope is not senile, it’s just his body that’s falling to bits right now. So you are also acting with incomplete knowledge. I’m sorry but I disagree. If a man can’t even stand straight or kneel down I don’t think he should run the church or anything with as many members (in the millions or more FDR did pretty well in WW2 despite his physical limitations. I think that most of your arguments here are unfounded, and are more a reflection of your disagreement with Catholicism than anything else.
Oh brother, 3rd reply with the same thing, I must be an idiot that can’t express myself ( please don’t agree ) THere’s a big difference between thinking clearly and being able to walk. I’m saying a person that doesn’t think right in his old age shouldn’t be making dicisions (sp?) for millions of a whole religion. — Charlie Maul *** . . . W A R N I N G . . . *** *** YOU HAVE ACCESSED A PROPRIETARY *** *** COMPUTER SYSTEM. ILLEGAL INTRUSION *** *** OR UNAUTHORIZED USE OF THIS SYSTEM *** *** OR NETWORK IS PROHIBITED. ***
Response:
I’m sorry but I disagree. If a man can’t even stand straight or kneel down I don’t think he should run the church or anything with as many members (in the millions or more). Physical disability does not bar people from employment in the secular world, why should it in the religious one?!
I’m not saying the ability to move your arms and legs or see or hear. I’m saying the ability to think clearly. — Charlie Maul *** . . . W A R N I N G . . . *** *** YOU HAVE ACCESSED A PROPRIETARY *** *** COMPUTER SYSTEM. ILLEGAL INTRUSION *** *** OR UNAUTHORIZED USE OF THIS SYSTEM *** *** OR NETWORK IS PROHIBITED. *** – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tony Miller seems to think we MUST obey the pope because he is the pope and we’re catholics. I’m glad to see he is the only one with this distorted belief. — janet
Response:
SORRY BUT I WILL NEVER OBEY THE POPE’S COMMANDS. He is an old senile *MAN*. Jesus is what brought me into this faith. Not a glorified human dressed in white. Do you speak for the whole church as far as this? You *MUST* follow the Pope’s commands? Anyone else in this newsgroup think the same?
I don’t agree with the statement as it stands. Catholics are not obliged to follow the pope’s commands, in the sense that he, Karol Wotija, might say, "do this", "don’t do that". We are obliged to follow the teachings of the church – the two are not synonymous. It’s the word "commands" here, which might be the problem, and a conflation of the idea of "a man" and "a role". In many instances, the teachings of the church are articulated through the pope’s (or more properly, popes’ ) works, such as encyclicals, etc. But these are *not* the teachings of one person, but rather of the church. I have a grave obligation to form my conscience to the best of my ability to be in accord with the teachings of the church. The pope’s sermons, etc., articulate this, in exactly the same way as those of any ordained or approved preacher’s should, but the bedrock of belief rests on the teachings of the church. "The pope’s commands" may be a short hand for all of the above, but it’s not overly clear. It may also be shorthand for the very, very, very rare exercise of ex cathedra statements – if so, it’s again not clear. Ex cathedra statements are in no way commands – they are (again) statements of the teaching of the church. What is important is not the commands of one person (Karol Wotija, theologian, exskier, etc.), but rather the teaching of the church. This is the difference between the man and the role. — janet
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you want to find the answers, you must drop the senile Pope routine. If you approach your quest with an open mind and open heart, you may find that there is more to the story than what is on the surface. Approach wondering what are the good reasons certain actions are considered immoral, instead of disagreeing without knowing the full story. A Catholic should inform their conscience before dissenting from Church teachings. So you’re saying if I want an answer to the question I have I should think that the pope is in his mental faculty’s to run the church You must realize that the Pope does not constitute the entire Church, and that he’s not absolute monarch over every diocese. I understand from our Archbishop (and the Archbishops of Montreal have never been ones to be papal yes-men) that the Pope is not senile, it’s just his body that’s falling to bits right now. So you are also acting with incomplete knowledge. I’m sorry but I disagree. If a man can’t even stand straight or kneel down I don’t think he should run the church or anything with as many members (in the millions or more). Tony Miller seems to think we MUST obey the pope because he is the pope and we’re catholics. I’m glad to see he is the only one with this distorted belief. So you think that physical limitations make a person less capable in some way? IIRC correctly, FDR was disabled but is considered one of the great presidents. I can’t speak for Tony, but no one has to obey the Pope, it’s called free will.
I think there’s a big difference between being able to walk and being able to think clearly. Maybe you’d want to rethink this and reply. — Charlie Maul *** . . . W A R N I N G . . . *** *** YOU HAVE ACCESSED A PROPRIETARY *** *** COMPUTER SYSTEM. ILLEGAL INTRUSION *** *** OR UNAUTHORIZED USE OF THIS SYSTEM *** *** OR NETWORK IS PROHIBITED. ***
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – SORRY BUT I WILL NEVER OBEY THE POPE’S COMMANDS. He is an old senile *MAN*. Jesus is what brought me into this faith. Not a glorified human dressed in white. Do you speak for the whole church as far as this? You *MUST* follow the Pope’s commands? Anyone else in this newsgroup think the same? I don’t agree with the statement as it stands. Catholics are not obliged to follow the pope’s commands, in the sense that he, Karol Wotija, might say, "do this", "don’t do that". We are obliged to follow the teachings of the church – the two are not synonymous. It’s the word "commands" here, which might be the problem, and a conflation of the idea of "a man" and "a role". In many instances, the teachings of the church are articulated through the pope’s (or more properly, popes’ ) works, such as encyclicals, etc. But these are *not* the teachings of one person, but rather of the church. I have a grave obligation to form my conscience to the best of my ability to be in accord with the teachings of the church. The pope’s sermons, etc., articulate this, in exactly the same way as those of any ordained or approved preacher’s should, but the bedrock of belief rests on the teachings of the church. "The pope’s commands" may be a short hand for all of the above, but it’s not overly clear. It may also be shorthand for the very, very, very rare exercise of ex cathedra statements – if so, it’s again not clear. Ex cathedra statements are in no way commands – they are (again) statements of the teaching of the church. What is important is not the commands of one person (Karol Wotija, theologian, exskier, etc.), but rather the teaching of the church. This is the difference between the man and the role. — janet
Sorry but I’ve never been too familiar with technical terms of the church. I still stand on my statement. I will not abide by an amendment to the 10 commandments from the pope. He is not chosen by a divine being but by men, men who have sexual feelings. They are not flawed, they are just human. We all have this feeling. In conclusion, I say a human being voted in by humans ( all of us being imperfect ) we’re no one to decide what God wants from us, we can only assume, and we all know what that makes us. — Charlie Maul *** . . . W A R N I N G . . . *** *** YOU HAVE ACCESSED A PROPRIETARY *** *** COMPUTER SYSTEM. ILLEGAL INTRUSION *** *** OR UNAUTHORIZED USE OF THIS SYSTEM *** *** OR NETWORK IS PROHIBITED. ***
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you want to find the answers, you must drop the senile Pope routine. If you approach your quest with an open mind and open heart, you may find that there is more to the story than what is on the surface. Approach wondering what are the good reasons certain actions are considered immoral, instead of disagreeing without knowing the full story. A Catholic should inform their conscience before dissenting from Church teachings. So you’re saying if I want an answer to the question I have I should think that the pope is in his mental faculty’s to run the church You must realize that the Pope does not constitute the entire Church, and that he’s not absolute monarch over every diocese. I understand from our Archbishop (and the Archbishops of Montreal have never been ones to be papal yes-men) that the Pope is not senile, it’s just his body that’s falling to bits right now. So you are also acting with incomplete knowledge. I’m sorry but I disagree. If a man can’t even stand straight or kneel down I don’t think he should run the church or anything with as many members (in the millions
or more FDR did pretty well in WW2 despite his physical limitations. I think that most of your arguments here are unfounded, and are more a reflection of your disagreement with Catholicism than anything else.
Response:
I’m sorry but I disagree. If a man can’t even stand straight or kneel down I don’t think he should run the church or anything with as many members (in the millions or more).
Physical disability does not bar people from employment in the secular world, why should it in the religious one?! Tony Miller seems to think we MUST obey the pope because he is the pope and we’re catholics. I’m glad to see he is the only one with this distorted belief.
– janet
Response:
This isn’t necessarily true. Not everyone becomes senile. My grandfather died at 89 and was sharp as a tack. Did your grandfather mumble all the time, walk with a hunchback, almost tip himself over when he kneels? No need to answer those, just questions to reflect on.
Those are symptoms of his Parkinson’s, not of senility. His mind seems pretty clear.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you want to find the answers, you must drop the senile Pope routine. If you approach your quest with an open mind and open heart, you may find that there is more to the story than what is on the surface. Approach wondering what are the good reasons certain actions are considered immoral, instead of disagreeing without knowing the full story. A Catholic should inform their conscience before dissenting from Church teachings. So you’re saying if I want an answer to the question I have I should think that the pope is in his mental faculty’s to run the church
You must realize that the Pope does not constitute the entire Church, and that he’s not absolute monarch over every diocese. I understand from our Archbishop (and the Archbishops of Montreal have never been ones to be papal yes-men) that the Pope is not senile, it’s just his body that’s falling to bits right now. So you are also acting with incomplete knowledge.
Response:
<<So you’re saying if I want an answer to the question I have I should think that the pope is in his mental faculty’s to run the church? Did you know he’s human and his brain deteriorates just like every other humans? I’m sorry, I guess my question will go unanswered. I didn’t know you spoke for the whole newsgroup. Can you point me to a catholic newsgroup that believes the pope is not a saint at least? The church teachings don’t depend on whether the pope is senile or not. The ones you mentioned are the traditional teachings of the church. What you are raising are questions about them, and that’s certainly valid. But taking your disagreements out of JP isn’t really justified. You raised three issues: 1) church teaching on homosexuals; can they be devout; are they condemned to hell? 2) church teaching on birth control: having sex when you can’t afford another kid? 3) what happens to the church if the pope IS senile? who minds the store in the interim? There are a lot of good sites on these on the internet. Let me just do a ten-second overview on each. Homesexuals: we need to distinguish the tendency and the act. The tendency is neutral; there is no sin in being a homosexual. There is no sin in being asexual. There is no sin in one’s tendency or lack of it. The sin is in the act. The church has consistently taught that homosexual acts are wrong. Paul condemns homosexuality specifically in Romans. Speaking of the pagans (esp. the Greeks), he said: "Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity." It’s part of our scripture and tradition. Given the revival of modern paganism and our society’s worship of Success and Sex, it’s probably not too surprising that pagan sins resurface again, too. Birth Control: Essentially the church teaching is, if you want to have sex, you have to take the chance on kids. It’s why male-female sex only in marriage makes sense: if kidless sex were okay, then so would male-male, female-female, male-cow, female-hog, etc. Because then recreational sex would be legitimate, right? But the church’s ancient teaching is that sex is special, not recreational. We surround sex with ritual, social conventions, laws, taboos; it’s not casual at all! We’ve downgraded its sacredness so much now that we now treat it like an alternative to bowling or a ballgame. It ends a date, sort of like a nightcap. Wrong. It is participating in a God act; it’s how we humans co-create with God. We make the persons and He adds the soul. If we make procreation impossible, then we cut God out. And the sin of using something holy in a trivial and profane way is called Sacrilege. Senile pope: That’s an interesting question. We have only had a few popes in history who resigned. It’s possible but rare. And of course if one in senile then they are not competent, even to resign! The pope cannot be deposed (there is no church court with higher authority than the pope). Of course, the church hierarchy would continue on, but without the pope at the helm I’m sure we’d eventually drift. Very good question, though…. Perhaps it wouldn’t be out of bounds to pray that when it’s time for the pope to go, he goes quickly.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you want to find the answers, you must drop the senile Pope routine. If you approach your quest with an open mind and open heart, you may find that there is more to the story than what is on the surface. Approach wondering what are the good reasons certain actions are considered immoral, instead of disagreeing without knowing the full story. A Catholic should inform their conscience before dissenting from Church teachings. So you’re saying if I want an answer to the question I have I should think that the pope is in his mental faculty’s to run the church You must realize that the Pope does not constitute the entire Church, and that he’s not absolute monarch over every diocese. I understand from our Archbishop (and the Archbishops of Montreal have never been ones to be papal yes-men) that the Pope is not senile, it’s just his body that’s falling to bits right now. So you are also acting with incomplete knowledge.
I’m sorry but I disagree. If a man can’t even stand straight or kneel down I don’t think he should run the church or anything with as many members (in the millions or more). Tony Miller seems to think we MUST obey the pope because he is the pope and we’re catholics. I’m glad to see he is the only one with this distorted belief. — Charlie Maul *** . . . W A R N I N G . . . *** *** YOU HAVE ACCESSED A PROPRIETARY *** *** COMPUTER SYSTEM. ILLEGAL INTRUSION *** *** OR UNAUTHORIZED USE OF THIS SYSTEM *** *** OR NETWORK IS PROHIBITED. ***
Response:
<Snip But the church’s ancient teaching is that sex is special, not recreational. We surround sex with ritual, social conventions, laws, taboos; it’s not casual at all!
Are you forgetting the unitive aspect of sexuality in marriage. The bonding of husband and wife? -Tony — "It is a poverty that a child must die so that you may live as you wish." — Mother Theresa
Response:
Birth Control: Essentially the church teaching is, if you want to have sex, you have to take the chance on kids. It’s why male-female sex only in marriage makes sense: if kidless sex were okay, then so would male-male, female-female, male-cow, female-hog, etc. Because then recreational sex would be legitimate, right?
That isn’t true. The church teaches that sex is 50% unitive. CeCe — I do not feel obligated to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forego their use. –Galileo Galilei
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <Snip If you want to find the answers, you must drop the senile Pope routine. If you approach your quest with an open mind and open heart, you may find that there is more to the story than what is on the surface. Approach wondering what are the good reasons certain actions are considered immoral, instead of disagreeing without knowing the full story. A Catholic should inform their conscience before dissenting from Church teachings. So you’re saying if I want an answer to the question I have I should think that the pope is in his mental faculty’s to run the church? Did you know he’s human and his brain deteriorates just like every other humans? I’m This isn’t necessarily true. Not everyone becomes senile. My grandfather died at 89 and was sharp as a tack.
Did your grandfather mumble all the time, walk with a hunchback, almost tip himself over when he kneels? No need to answer those, just questions to reflect on. sorry, I guess my question will go unanswered. I didn’t know you spoke for the whole newsgroup. Can you point me to a catholic newsgroup that believes the pope is not a saint at least? Well, whether or not he’s a saint will be decided later. But as a Catholic you are really obligated to be obedient to the Pope and the Magesterum.
SORRY BUT I WILL NEVER OBEY THE POPE’S COMMANDS. He is an old senile *MAN*. Jesus is what brought me into this faith. Not a glorified human dressed in white. Do you speak for the whole church as far as this? You *MUST* follow the Pope’s commands? Anyone else in this newsgroup think the same? I find this incredulous (sp?) or hard to believe if that’s not the word for the perfect ones. — Charlie Maul *** . . . W A R N I N G . . . *** *** YOU HAVE ACCESSED A PROPRIETARY *** *** COMPUTER SYSTEM. ILLEGAL INTRUSION *** *** OR UNAUTHORIZED USE OF THIS SYSTEM *** *** OR NETWORK IS PROHIBITED. ***
Response:
Me and Jenn want to know where you people stand as far as the living heirarchy of the church ((priest, archbishop, pope…)) Me and my wife just had a 1/2 hour discussion about this, I’m not trying to go against the "church" but the church seems like a religious government. The pope being the president. He denounces homosexuals. But what if there is a pair of devout homosexuals? Are they condemned to hell anyway? What if theres a couple that uses condoms but loves each other but they can’t afford to have another kid? Should they just have sex and have another kid and give it up to adoption.????? What if What if? Who do I ask? The priest? Will he give the text book answer a senile pope said?
I think your ’senile pope’ bit betrays your bias right off. If you’re looking for serious answers then you should probably do some more research into what the Church believes and what it doesn’t. Oh wait- you don’t like textbook answers do you? Disregard.
Response:
<Snip If you want to find the answers, you must drop the senile Pope routine. If you approach your quest with an open mind and open heart, you may find that there is more to the story than what is on the surface. Approach wondering what are the good reasons certain actions are considered immoral, instead of disagreeing without knowing the full story. A Catholic should inform their conscience before dissenting from Church teachings. So you’re saying if I want an answer to the question I have I should think that the pope is in his mental faculty’s to run the church? Did you know he’s human and his brain deteriorates just like every other humans? I’m
This isn’t necessarily true. Not everyone becomes senile. My grandfather died at 89 and was sharp as a tack. sorry, I guess my question will go unanswered. I didn’t know you spoke for the whole newsgroup. Can you point me to a catholic newsgroup that believes the pope is not a saint at least?
Well, whether or not he’s a saint will be decided later. But as a Catholic you are really obligated to be obedient to the Pope and the Magesterum. If you’d like to find another newsgroup, or a priest that tells you what you want to hear, I guess you’re welcome to do that. If you want to find out what Catholicism is really all about, get your hands on the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC). It’s pretty dry reading, I warn you. If you’d like to find out *why* homosexual *acts* are bad, or *why* you should not use birth control, stick around. We have some of the most educated Catholics on the planet here. But don’t take anyone’s word for it. Verify it in official church documents (the best will give you web references). God bless you on your journey. CM
-Tony Ps: I hear that the folks at alt.religion.christian.baptist don’t revere the Pope 
— "It is a poverty that a child must die so that you may live as you wish." — Mother Theresa
Response:
So you’re saying if I want an answer to the question I have I should think that the pope is in his mental faculty’s to run the church?
Not quite, I would say – I mean, you needn’t think quite that way, rather than anything about the pope! The idea of the pope’s position rests not on the person of the pope, whoever he may be, but rather on the promise of Christ not to let the gates of hell prevail against the church, and then, later, to be with the church always. Did you know he’s human and his brain deteriorates just like every other humans?
Yup – regretfully watched it for the last almost 20 years; physically, he never really seems to have recovered from being shot. Mentally, however, some of his best theological work has come in that period. However, the point still remains – no matter what state popes have been in, the protection for the church comes not from them as men, but from the Spirit and from Christ. There have been some popes in the past who have, shall we say, not set the best example of Christian living, but the church has survived… I’m sorry, I guess my question will go unanswered. I didn’t know you spoke for the whole newsgroup. Can you point me to a catholic newsgroup that believes the pope is not a saint at least?
In one sense, he is – in the sense that St. Paul says we *all* are. In another sense, he isn’t, in that he is still alive, and so not St. John Paul, if that makes sense. If you mean that no one here thinks he can make a mistake, you’d be very wrong! :} He’s as human as the next of us, (though one heck of a theologian). He’s perfectly capable of being wrong, on all sorts of things. He’s perfectly capable of sinning – the doctrine of infallibility doesn’t say he can’t sin, or that he can’t be wrong. It’s not really about the pope at all, it’s about protection for the church, if that makes sense. I happen to think this particular pope has done a very great deal for theology in the church – but I don’t idolise him in any way, nor do I think he is incapable of being wrong. Does that help? :} — janet
Response:
Me and Jenn want to know where you people stand as far as the living heirarchy of the church ((priest, archbishop, pope…)) Me and my wife just had a 1/2 hour discussion about this, I’m not trying to go against the "church" but the church seems like a religious government. The pope being the president. He denounces homosexuals. But what if there is a pair of devout homosexuals? Are they condemned to hell anyway? What if theres a couple that uses condoms but loves each other but they can’t afford to have another kid? Should they just have sex and have another kid and give it up to adoption.????? What if What if? Who do I ask? The priest? Will he give the text book answer a senile pope said? CM
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Me and Jenn want to know where you people stand as far as the living heirarchy of the church ((priest, archbishop, pope…)) Me and my wife just had a 1/2 hour discussion about this, I’m not trying to go against the "church" but the church seems like a religious government. The pope being the president. He denounces homosexuals. But what if there is a pair of devout homosexuals? Are they condemned to hell anyway? What if theres a couple that uses condoms but loves each other but they can’t afford to have another kid? Should they just have sex and have another kid and give it up to adoption.????? What if What if? Who do I ask? The priest? Will he give the text book answer a senile pope said? CM If you want to find the answers, you must drop the senile Pope routine. If you approach your quest with an open mind and open heart, you may find that there is more to the story than what is on the surface. Approach wondering what are the good reasons certain actions are considered immoral, instead of disagreeing without knowing the full story. A Catholic should inform their conscience before dissenting from Church teachings.
So you’re saying if I want an answer to the question I have I should think that the pope is in his mental faculty’s to run the church? Did you know he’s human and his brain deteriorates just like every other humans? I’m sorry, I guess my question will go unanswered. I didn’t know you spoke for the whole newsgroup. Can you point me to a catholic newsgroup that believes the pope is not a saint at least? CM
no comment untill now