Christianity QA

Question:

You failed to understand the point of my post.  The Adventist use of the "not one jot or tittle shall be removed" quote to support the continuation of the Sabbath is not valid.  When Jesus used the word Law, He meant ALL of the law, not just the Ten Commandments.

It is you who don’t understand me.  Since you interpret it that way, YOU are bound to keep all of them and not just the Ten Commandments. We are both agreeing that Christ was referring to the Law and the Prophets.  I say that some of those issues are voided by even just common sense.  You say it is not.  You need to keep them all on command of the Master by your own words. They way He used the word Law throughout the rest of Matthew makes this clear.  Therefore, anyone who uses this passage to support any continued practice of the old covenant is obligated to obey all of the practices of the old covenant.

Jesus didn’t say Old Covenant.  According to you, He said that till heaven and earth pass, all those old laws have to be kept.  You are bound therefore to keep them, and you can’t say anything about old covenant/new covenant since Christ said till heaven and earth pass. The blood sacrifices for sins would be exempted of course, because we all believe that His sacrifice  covers them all.  If you use this quote to support the Sabbath, then you should also have tassels on the corners of your garments, or you are being a hypocrite.

I explained myself.  You claim Christ is talking about all the specific commandments of the old testament.  That must include refuge cities, what to do with slaves, etc.  We don’t believe that.  You therefore need to be bound to keep all of those things, because, according to you, THE MASTER said so!  No time for quibbling about old covenant and new covenant.  CHRIST has spoken according to you! My point is that what Jesus was saying is that with His death, ALL was fulfilled.  Jesus in His prefect life and atoning death fulfilled all of the Law for us. We are now under a new covenant and all of the instructions for Christian living can be found between Matt. 1;1 and Rev 22:21. In Christ, Frank

Jesus said till heaven and earth pass not a jot or tittle shall pass till all be fulfilled.  He then said, whosoever THEREFORE would break the least of these commandments and TEACH MEN SO is condemned.  So don’t tell me they are fulfilled and we now don’t have to keep them. You are contradicting the MASTER.

Response:

– Joseph E. Meehan 26 + 6 = 1  It’s Irish Math

They had laws for criminal justice. We cannot deal with such like the eye for an eye bit, because we have systems of justice outside of the church.

    I sure hope you did not stop your reading of the Bible after "..eye for an eye"  After all the next line, the one so many Bible only, personal interpreters of the Bible, like to ignore; changes the whole meaning.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Joseph E. Meehan 26 + 6 = 1  It’s Irish Math They had laws for criminal justice. We cannot deal with such like the eye for an eye bit, because we have systems of justice outside of the church.     I sure hope you did not stop your reading of the Bible after "..eye for an eye"  After all the next line, the one so many Bible only, personal interpreters of the Bible, like to ignore; changes the whole meaning.

And so, as Seeber told us happily, Rome persecuted and murdered them because she read after the eye for an eye line? Ted McMillan

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Snipped*** Since no day for Christian worship was DECREED by God anywhere in the New Testament, apparently the apostles figured we could decide for ourselves, and Sunday worship began right there in the 1st century with the Apostles. Well, Peter and the 11 quickly realized that Exodus 31:17 says that only Jews are required to keep Sabbath, so they began to worship on Sunday to commemorate the Resurrection.

First starting out to fail to address the crucial points that I gave. Gave no scripture where Peter told us that only Jews kept the Sabbath and therefore they keep Sunday.  IQ is failing again, and he just has to complain that he is a Vatican despot. So we actually see the first Sunday morning Christian worsihp servcice in Acts 2. The Holy Spirit came to the Apostles on Pentecost Sunday. Acts 20 says they worshipped on Sunday, too.

Why didn’t this person claiming a high IQ and relationship with Christ address my points?  DOES HAVING A RELIGIOUS SERVICE ON ANY PARTICULAR DAY MAKE THAT DAY A HOLY DAY FOREVER?  IF IT DOES, DOES THAT REVERSE ANOTHER DAY THAT HAS BEEN DESIGNATED AS HOLY.  Two cataclysmic mountains have to be overcome to push the lie.  This is always childs-play for Vatican despots! In Matthew 5:17-19, Christ made it clear enough for all to hear except the despots of Satan.  He said that till heaven and earth pass, not one stroking of the T or dotting of the I will change till all be fulfilled. NONSENSE!

Blasphemer!  Show us how your IQ is greater than Christ’s and I will even remind you that you started with a repetition and not with addressing the key points.  16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.’ "   Then check the prophecies to see when the prophecies of Christ’s second coming will be fulfilled and heaven and earth will pass away. Not relevant. See Exodus 31:16 for who Sabbath was intended for: (the Jews).

DESPOT!  Read Romans 20.  We are Israelites.  We don’t just receive the benefits of salvation in their commonwealth.  We also receive their responsibilities.  Christ told His Disciples to preach the Gospel and to teach the Gentiles all that He has commanded them in Matthew 28. Well Teddy boy, if your application is corrrect, then you had better be obeying all of the Law, not just the Ten Commandments. Right on.

Despot Vatican boys!  We are biblical Christians.  If there are commands, and then follows silence, THE COMMAND REMAINS UNTIL THERE IS A FURTHER COMMAND ANNULLING IT!  We are biblical Christians.  You all work from Catholic principle. Here is food for your IQ in a VERY SIMPLE QUESTION: WHERE IS THE COMMAND THAT TELLS US YOUR STARTLING CLAIMS THAT CHRISTIANS ARE TO WORSHIP THE LORD ON SUNDAY TO COMMEMORATE HIS RESSURECTION.  WHERE IS THE COMMAND FOR THIS?  Too hard for your IQ?   The exact quote is "not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished." When Jesus said Law, He meant Law not just the Ten Commandments.  Therefore, you had better follow all of the laws, precepts, instructions and commands in the books of Moses (excepting       sacrifices for sins) or else you are a hypocrite, picking and choosing which laws you will obey and which you will ignore. Yep. (keeping the law can’t be done)

So you mean Christ says to keep ALL of them and YOU don’t?  You mean Christ says to keep them, but your higher IQ tells you it can’t be done? Just to help you better understand the words of Jesus, I will quote every verse in Matthew where the word Law is used. Hah hah hah hah hah hah hah hah hah! You have no clue. The New Testament is the Covenant of Grace, NOT the covenant of law.

I didn’t write that quote above, despot Weatherly.  Still, how does that covenant business overshadow what you claim Christ said and meant, but you will not do or follow? Matt 5:17 Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. They way Jesus used the words "the Law and the Prophets it is most probable that He meant the entire Old Testament.  16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.’ "

Romans 20 tells us that we as Gentiles now have all the benefits of the Jews, including salvation, the covenants, THE GIVING OF THE LAW and the promises. Matt 5:18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. In the previous sentance Jesus used the word "Law" in a way that implies He meant all of the Law.  There is no reason to think that He resrticted the meaning in this verse to only the Ten Commandments.  16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.’ "

Romans 20 tells us that we as Gentiles now have all the benefits of the Jews, including salvation, the covenants, THE GIVING OF THE LAW and the promises. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Matt 5:25 Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Obviously in this verse Jesus was refering to the civil law of the land, not the Ten Commandments. Matt 7:12 In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets. There is that pesky "the Law and the Prophets" quote again meaning that Jesus was once again using the word "Law " to mean the the writings of Moses, not just the Ten Commandments Matt 11:13 For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. Once again, the Law and the Prophets which has to imply the whole Law, not just the Ten Commandments. Matt 12:5 Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are         ? I looked and looked, but no matter how hard I looked, I just couldn’t find this statement  in the Ten Commandments.  Jesus must have been using "Law" to mean the whole Law again It doesn’t matter.

Because Weatherly has a Eucharist cookie to order around Christ!  16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.’ "

Romans 20 tells us that we as Gentiles now have all the benefits of the Jews, including salvation, the covenants, THE GIVING OF THE LAW and the promises. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Matt 22:36 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" This time it isn’t Jesus speaking, but a lawyer.  One could make a case that the lawyer was refering to the Ten Commandments.  If so, then what Jesus said is really interesting.  Jesus quoted two commandments, neither one being a part of the Ten Commandments, as being the greatest commandments. He then concluded His statement with the following Matt 22:40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." Isn’t that annoying, Jesus just plain refuses to use the word "Law" in a way that would point to the Ten Commandments and validate your statement.  Correct. And last, but not least: Matt 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and    min, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. Yes. Jesus uses "law" again, but once again it is obvious that He does not mean the Ten Commandments. Well Teddy boy, it has been shown to any who are unbiased and reasonable, that your application of Matt 5 to support the continuation of Sabbath observance is totally without merit.  It is in fact a misapplication of scripture to use Matt 5 to support Sabbath observance.  If one must misapply scripture to support a doctrine, then perhaps the doctrine needs re-examination.  16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from

Romans 20 tells us that we as Gentiles now have all the benefits of the Jews, including salvation, the covenants, THE GIVING OF THE LAW and the promises. Ted McMillan

Response:

The Catholics, neither the Adventists will stay us Christians from worshipping on Sunday as did the Apostles (Acts 2, Acts 20).

That’s why there was so much commotion with the new Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians over circumcision involving only a privily part of males, while a day of worship involving male, female, oxes and even    es gave no historical commotion.  Obviously Weather should be more considered a despot than the so-called facts he is telling us we must believe. Since no day for Christian worship was DECREED by God anywhere in the New Testament, apparently the apostles figured we could decide for ourselves, and Sunday worship began right there in the 1st century with the Apostles.

In Matthew 5:17-19, Christ made it clear enough for all to hear except the despots of Satan.  He said that till heaven and earth pass, not one stroking of the T or dotting of the I will change till all be fulfilled.  Then check the prophecies to see when the prophecies of Christ’s second coming will be fulfilled and heaven and earth will pass away. The Sabbath at that time was a no-brainer for Pharisees.  Need not repeat anything already clearly known and even over-emphasized. Rome may have decreed. But we aren’t Romans.

If Adventists decreed you all would have said we were arrogant and asked how we could do that.  Adventist refuse to unite with the other churches, you tell us that we think ourselves superior to our FELLOW brothers and sisters in Christ and we are arrogant.  Rome tells us SHE WILL LEAD this uniting conglomeration, so naturally now you become quiet. Peter and Paul worshipped on Sunday, so I follow that example.

Proof, proof, the Vatican despot needs some proof.  If Christ’s red letters tell us till heaven and earth pass not a jot or tittle shall pass from the law, we Christians more follow the red letters than any misconception accomplished by Vatican despots.  We are not Peterians and we are not Paulians.  We are Christians and we will give Christ far more the benefit of the doubt.  Christ is not to blame for the confusion, else He would have plainly said that the Sabbath command is annulled.  The Vatican despots are to blame. Sabbath was never intended for Christians anyway. John Weatherly

In Matthew 24, when Christ talks about the end of the world, he tells CHRISTIANS to pray that their flight be not in the Winter, nor upon the Sabbath day.  Later on he teaches them to preach to all nations ALL that He had commanded them. Ted McMillan

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Snipped*** Since no day for Christian worship was DECREED by God anywhere in the New Testament, apparently the apostles figured we could decide for ourselves, and Sunday worship began right there in the 1st century with the Apostles. In Matthew 5:17-19, Christ made it clear enough for all to hear except the despots of Satan.  He said that till heaven and earth pass, not one stroking of the T or dotting of the I will change till all be fulfilled.  Then check the prophecies to see when the prophecies of Christ’s second coming will be fulfilled and heaven and earth will pass away. Well Teddy boy, if your application is corrrect, then you had better be obeying all of the Law, not just the Ten Commandments.  The exact quote is "not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished." When Jesus said Law, He meant Law not just the Ten Commandments.  Therefore, you had better follow all of the laws, precepts, instructions and commands in the books of Moses (excepting       sacrifices for sins) or else you are a hypocrite, picking and choosing which laws you will obey and which you will ignore.

Then you are in trouble too Frank Furter!  You quoted that Christ said everything, so you better be keeping everything.  You strayed off the point. But, as usual your arguments are redundant.  We are not to keep many of the ceremonial laws of Moses.  Most of them were based upon an independent society.  They had laws dealing with      s and    es.  We obviously don’t deal with that.  They had laws for criminal justice. We cannot deal with such like the eye for an eye bit, because we have systems of justice outside of the church.  All this is just a repetition.  But that’s why Christ used Matthew 5 to prepare His people for dispersion and a different from of living based upon their circumstances. Just to help you better understand the words of Jesus, I will quote every verse in Matthew where the word Law is used. Matt 5:17 Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. They way Jesus used the words "the Law and the Prophets it is most probable that He meant the entire Old Testament.

I agree.  Thing is, the Pharisees didn’t accuse Him of disobeying all the Old Testament.  Almost every problem they had with Him had to do with the Seventh-day Sabbath and Christ’s claim to be the Son of God. But if Christ said to obey the Old Testament, I would obey it.  But I don’t claim that: you do.  Then you are supposed to be bound to obey it since the MASTER said so according to you.  How are you going to skirt around that?  You go to Paul and Peter, not being Christians. You misinterpret their words and hold precedence over the red letters of Christ’s own utterances! Matt 5:18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. In the previous sentance Jesus used the word "Law" in a way that implies He meant all of the Law.  There is no reason to think that He resrticted the meaning in this verse to only the Ten Commandments.

I agree.  That’s why I can still quote the Psalms for living.  I can still quote Proverbs, etc.  What do the laws of the Ancient Temple have to do with me?  But, fact is, He spoke in relation to what the Disciples and the people were thinking.  Christ was not accused of tearing down circumcision or anything else.  He was mostly accused of Sabbath-breaking. Matt 5:25 Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Obviously in this verse Jesus was refering to the civil law of the land, not the Ten Commandments.

He was giving good advice.  Where can this statement be found in the Old Testament?  I can quote Psalms for living and guidance. Matt 7:12 In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets. There is that pesky "the Law and the Prophets" quote again meaning that Jesus was once again using the word "Law " to mean the the writings of Moses, not just the Ten Commandments.

The writings of Moses are valid as are Psalms and others even for today, but even common sense dictates that all that they said cannot apply to us.  Common sense dictates that we are not Jews in our own nation.  I will not support the building of refuge cities, etc.  I will not support the idea of an avenger seeking out someone who may have accidently     ed a relative of his.  I do not support an eye for and eye and a tooth for a tooth.  It was the law of the land when Israel was a nation.  Common sense dictates, and Christ was teaching common sense knowing that the Jews would reject Him and that Christianity would not become an independent nation. Matt 11:13 For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. Once again, the Law and the Prophets which has to imply the whole Law, not just the Ten Commandments.

Already commented, and still now you have to show that YOU keep all the law.  We don’t have to obey the civil laws of Moses because even common sense dictates.  All I know is that you insist Christ speaks about the whole law. You are therefore bound, and I don’t want to hear you branching off to anything that sounds contrary from either Paul, Peter, or any other speaker.  CHRIST has spoken! Matt 12:5 Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are         ? I looked and looked, but no matter how hard I looked, I just couldn’t find this statement  in the Ten Commandments.  Jesus must have been using "Law" to mean the whole Law again.

Okay then, obey the laws of the temple!  Where is it? Matt 22:36 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" This time it isn’t Jesus speaking, but a lawyer.  One could make a case that the lawyer was refering to the Ten Commandments.  If so, then what Jesus said is really interesting.  Jesus quoted two commandments, neither one being a part of the Ten Commandments, as being the greatest commandments. He then concluded His statement with the following.

The first commandment says thou shalt have no other God’s before me. That, combined with the first four details more fully that first great command.  The last six dictate the second.  My website deals specifically with these very same issues, but I can prophesy that it won’t make a difference with my antagonists here. Christ said on these two commands hang all the law and the prophets. That means all the Law and the Prophets are based on that command.  On the equitable working of society are based all the laws of the land. We don’t ignore the actual laws in order to tell the world we are regarding what they are based upon. Matt 22:40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." Isn’t that annoying, Jesus just plain refuses to use the word "Law" in a way that would point to the Ten Commandments and validate your statement.

According to a despot, of course!  Are you keeping all the Law and the Prophets as you insist Christ is demanding compliance to? And last, but not least: Matt 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and    min, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. Jesus uses "law" again, but once again it is obvious that He does not mean the Ten Commandments.

Justice, mercy and faithfulness.  This also has a civil connotation. But yes, Christ was referring to more than just the Ten Commandments. Common sense will dictate however.  Even the Ten Commandments.  If it tells me that I shall not covet another’s manservant, maidservant or    , I am not going to buy an     for my neighbor so that I would not covet it. Well Teddy boy, it has been shown to any who are unbiased and reasonable, that your application of Matt 5 to support the continuation of Sabbath observance is totally without merit.

To despot Frank Furter.  You Vatican despots always claim this.  I will direct you to the specific article on my website and I want you to deal with the question and the issue. It is in fact a misapplication of scripture to use Matt 5 to support Sabbath observance.  If one must misapply scripture to support a doctrine, then perhaps the doctrine needs re-examination.

You mean that since Christ told the world we have to keep the entire Old Testament, as you despot, you are doing that?  Why do you misapply scripture?  Why then not listen to Christ’s plain words as you claim? Ted McMillan

Response:

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