A call for the GLBT Episcopal community to lay out their platform

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Christian Living

Question:

I’m not sure that any person who isn’t GLBT can really "get" what the experience of being GLBT in a church which is "working on" accepting us as fully acceptable humans feels like,

The Episcopal Church is doing no such thing. It has accepted homosexuals as persons for years and has ordained scores of practicing homosexuals, including more than one bishop. What more do you want, KY dispensers in the men’s room? what it does to the spirit, to our ability to live fully into the people God made us to be. I recommend to all folks who don’t "get it" that they engage in an intentional focus on compassion.

It isn’t about compassion. If you would stop feeling sorry for yourself you might come closer to seeing the truth as it really is. Charles Hohenstein

Response:

We’ve seen over time some of the positions of the GLBT community, but not in aggregate, nor in a systematic position. How about it? Anyone care to lay out the platform?

You seem to be laboring under the common misapprehension that all gays goose-step to a universal "agenda" to which we are all privy through some sort of underground network. There are some organizations, none of which has more than a few thousand members (homosexual Americans number in the millions, by the most conservative estimates) which have published programs or "agendas". They are by no means universally, known, understood, nor accepted. If you actually care about this subject, and are not merely baiting, make the effort to actually know a gay person and ask her/him. I would be happy to tell you my opinions, if you really want to know. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Todd H

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Gee, for somebody whose church consecrated a gay bishop amid international opposition last year, you sure see a half empty glass, don’t cha? Leslie, for some GLBT folk it’s too little too late. I have a friend who is a gay man who has been struggling for years with his local Episcopal bishops around the topic of ordination. Finally in frustration, he joined one of the offshoots of ECUSA, the Evangelical Anglican Church of America, which is totally open to GLBT folks. He is now a priest and has a flourishing ministry. That’s good…..and if it were anyone else, I would be extremely sympathetic…..but Louis has worn out my sympathy and spat on it several times. No offense, but I’m sick and tired of standing up for people who don’t return the favor. I guess I should killfile him and spare myself the misery that comes with attempting to shine light into his dungeon hole, but I would miss so much fine bitching.

Spoken like a true christer. m – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m not sure that any person who isn’t GLBT can really "get" what the experience of being GLBT in a church which is "working on" accepting us as fully acceptable humans feels like, what it does to the spirit, to our ability to live fully into the people God made us to be. I recommend to all folks who don’t "get it" that they engage in an intentional focus on compassion. Priscilla, if I were any more intentionally compassionate—-I’d—-I dunno. Let’s just say my conscience is clear on the matter, and I’m doing what I can. It’s probably not worth going through explaining myself. Leslie.

Response:

Spoken like a bitter old man who can’t take what he dishes out. Leslie

Response:

It’s fascinating, isn’t it Pri, that a religion which claims as its primary values love, mercy, reconciliation, justice & compassion has spent so much of its history (up to and including today) doing the exact opposite? Oh, sure, there are a few Christians here and there who, despite the Church, attempt to live up to these standards, but _over all_, as an institution, as an ideology, it does not. And now, with a few baby steps being taken to treat gays as something other than vermin, a huge outcry and reaction has occured, primates from around the world are organizing to cast the unclean out and individual Christians are being urged (or commanded under threat) to vote their prejudices and oppose any reforms. Really, when one looks at it objectively, it’s secular culture which is our best hope and our main protector. You are right in recommending a practice of compassion. However, I am not holding my breath. The smugness and ignorance of straights seems to be without limit. When not expressing outright hatred (conservatives), they are assuring us that things are getting better and we just have to be patient (liberals). As you say, they just don’t "get it." In a way, it’s hard to blame them, as they haven’t had the experience we have had it’s almost impossible for them to understand our reaction to their condescension. The thing that keeps me going is that I am sure that Christ "gets it." Who needs the straight-dominated Church when we have Him? m

Response:

Pope decries "self-centered demands" of same-sex couples In his latest assessment of U.S. society, Pope John Paul II has denounced the acceptance of abortion and marriage for same-sex couples as "self-centered demands" erroneously depicted as human rights. Read it all… http://www.advocate.com/new_news.asp?ID=12648&sd=06/04/04

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gee, for somebody whose church consecrated a gay bishop amid international opposition last year, you sure see a half empty glass, don’t cha? Leslie, for some GLBT folk it’s too little too late. I have a friend who is a gay man who has been struggling for years with his local Episcopal bishops around the topic of ordination. Finally in frustration, he joined one of the offshoots of ECUSA, the Evangelical Anglican Church of America, which is totally open to GLBT folks. He is now a priest and has a flourishing ministry. I’m not sure that any person who isn’t GLBT can really "get" what the experience of being GLBT in a church which is "working on" accepting us as fully acceptable humans feels like, what it does to the spirit, to our ability to live fully into the people God made us to be. I recommend to all folks who don’t "get it" that they engage in an intentional focus on compassion. Priscilla It’s fascinating, isn’t it Pri, that a religion which claims as its primary values love, mercy, reconciliation, justice & compassion has spent so much of its history (up to and including today) doing the exact opposite? Oh, sure, there are a few Christians here and there who, despite the Church, attempt to live up to these standards, but _over all_, as an institution, as an ideology, it does not. And now, with a few baby steps being taken to treat gays as something other than vermin, a huge outcry and reaction has occured, primates from around the world are organizing to cast the unclean out and individual Christians are being urged (or commanded under threat) to vote their prejudices and oppose any reforms. Really, when one looks at it objectively, it’s secular culture which is our best hope and our main protector. You are right in recommending a practice of compassion. However, I am not holding my breath. The smugness and ignorance of straights seems to be without limit. When not expressing outright hatred (conservatives), they are assuring us that things are getting better and we just have to be patient (liberals). As you say, they just don’t "get it." In a way, it’s hard to blame them, as they haven’t had the experience we have had it’s almost impossible for them to understand our reaction to their condescension. The thing that keeps me going is that I am sure that Christ "gets it." Who needs the straight-dominated Church when we have Him?

I don’t really have anything to say in response. I have no argument for you. I’m able to hang in, and you need to take a different path. Neither of us is doing the "wrong" or "right" thing. Peace, Louis. Priscilla

Response:

: Gee, for somebody whose church consecrated a gay bishop amid international opposition last year, you sure see a half empty glass, don’t cha? Leslie, for some GLBT folk it’s too little too late. I have a friend who is a gay man who has been struggling for years with his local Episcopal bishops around the topic of ordination. Finally in frustration, he joined one of the offshoots of ECUSA, the Evangelical Anglican Church of America, which is totally open to GLBT folks. He is now a priest and has a flourishing ministry.

That’s good…..and if it were anyone else, I would be extremely sympathetic…..but Louis has worn out my sympathy and spat on it several times. No offense, but I’m sick and tired of standing up for people who don’t return the favor. I guess I should killfile him and spare myself the misery that comes with attempting to shine light into his dungeon hole, but I would miss so much fine bitching. I’m not sure that any person who isn’t GLBT can really "get" what the experience of being GLBT in a church which is "working on" accepting us as fully acceptable humans feels like, what it does to the spirit, to our ability to live fully into the people God made us to be. I recommend to all folks who don’t "get it" that they engage in an intentional focus on compassion.

Priscilla, if I were any more intentionally compassionate—-I’d—-I dunno. Let’s just say my conscience is clear on the matter, and I’m doing what I can. It’s probably not worth going through explaining myself. Leslie.

Response:

No. That’s not what I was saying. I would say you should know me better by now but…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And as for the church being a structure that belongs to straights, it never has completely, and we all know that. There were probably gays among the first disciples (though they probably wouldn’t have identified themselves as such as the term didn’t exist at the time) and there will be gays in the church militant at the second coming. Unfortunately, they’ve never been recognised (that we know of) until recently. The church must realize who it has always been—-and accept it before that will change. The may be gays in the church, but the "Body" patently regards us as little better than cancer cells.

Gee, for somebody whose church consecrated a gay bishop amid international opposition last year, you sure see a half empty glass, don’t cha? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – conform to heterosexual norms of conduct or hope for their permission to exist? It’s quite clear that organized monotheism (especially christianism) has been constructed by and for straights: look at its history, its moralism, its theology. Look at its present-day behavior. (Look at the posted article by N.T. Wright.) Each and every attempt to treat gays as equals under the law is being vehemently opposed by christianist groups up to and including the president and congress (proposed anti-gay marriage amendment and "defense of marriage act" respectively – signed by Clinton) And there are Christians fighting for gay rights as well–we just don’t make the news. St. Mark’s is delightful example, but who the hell cares about a congregation of 16 regulars?! (Unless you want to start a parish based Canterbury, lol.) There have always been gays in the church, but demographically (like in society) they are a minority, which is why they haven’t been recognized. It sucks, but it is getting better. It can’t get worse. Really? I disagree.

Okee dokeee, louis, go ahead, be miserable. nothing I can do about it. So save your pity. The search for Truth doesn’t need a compromised hope. I’m not compromising—-but I do pity anyone who has given in to despair. Thanks for your smug condescension.

Actually, I was trying to help. Not that you would understand that coming from an evil straight person. Leslie

Response:

Gee, for somebody whose church consecrated a gay bishop amid international opposition last year, you sure see a half empty glass, don’t cha?

Leslie, for some GLBT folk it’s too little too late. I have a friend who is a gay man who has been struggling for years with his local Episcopal bishops around the topic of ordination. Finally in frustration, he joined one of the offshoots of ECUSA, the Evangelical Anglican Church of America, which is totally open to GLBT folks. He is now a priest and has a flourishing ministry. I’m not sure that any person who isn’t GLBT can really "get" what the experience of being GLBT in a church which is "working on" accepting us as fully acceptable humans feels like, what it does to the spirit, to our ability to live fully into the people God made us to be. I recommend to all folks who don’t "get it" that they engage in an intentional focus on compassion. Priscilla

Response:

We’ve seen over time some of the positions of the GLBT community, but not in aggregate, nor in a systematic position. How about it? Anyone care to lay out the platform?

I don’t think there is a "systematic position"…….I don’t think there is a platform. This is something my fellow straights often fail to understand—-THERE IS NO "GAY AGENDA"—-It’s a myth. It doesn’t exist. The glbt community is diverse enough that they have a lot of different opinions, and contrary to popular rumor, they are not uniformly organized. Am I the only one who thought that needed to be said? Leslie

Response:

No, but the rest of us aren’t feeding the trolls. Priscilla — "Come to Planet Earth! Watch people with brains not use them! Several shows daily! Free admittance!" Keera Ann Fox in alt.support.menopause

Response:

I see. So Christ will turn his back on me because I don’t belong to some christian organization? And as for the church being a structure that belongs to straights, it never has completely, and we all know that. There were probably gays among the first disciples (though they probably wouldn’t have identified themselves as such as the term didn’t exist at the time) and there will be gays in the church militant at the second coming. Unfortunately, they’ve never been recognised (that we know of) until recently. The church must realize who it has always been—-and accept it before that will change.

The may be gays in the church, but the "Body" patently regards us as little better than cancer cells. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – conform to heterosexual norms of conduct or hope for their permission to exist? It’s quite clear that organized monotheism (especially christianism) has been constructed by and for straights: look at its history, its moralism, its theology. Look at its present-day behavior. (Look at the posted article by N.T. Wright.) Each and every attempt to treat gays as equals under the law is being vehemently opposed by christianist groups up to and including the president and congress (proposed anti-gay marriage amendment and "defense of marriage act" respectively – signed by Clinton) And there are Christians fighting for gay rights as well–we just don’t make the news. St. Mark’s is delightful example, but who the hell cares about a congregation of 16 regulars?! (Unless you want to start a parish based Canterbury, lol.) There have always been gays in the church, but demographically (like in society) they are a minority, which is why they haven’t been recognized. It sucks, but it is getting better. It can’t get worse.

Really? I disagree. So save your pity. The search for Truth doesn’t need a compromised hope. I’m not compromising—-but I do pity anyone who has given in to despair.

Thanks for your smug condescension. m – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Leslie

Response:

John, As Episcopalians we don’t look at the building blocks of faith in the same way you do. It is a hazy structure. Rather it is the animating presence inside the building of theology that we look to. As a boy my mom taught me Zorastrianism while I was in confirmation class. I told my rector this and he had no problem with that. At my confirmation I felt God’s presence. Praise be to Ahura Mazda and the Amesha Spentas! (in Jesus name and I am not saying that mockingly). Brian J Dawson

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It would have to be written wit disappearing Ink and on onion skin paper. So it could be changed at a moments notice,like Episcopalian beliefs.

Response:

Mycroft, I know. But I also that my Lord answered the question "How – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – many times shall I forgive the one who trespasses against me?" with the mystical number "seven times seventy" — in other words infinitely. If we give up the battle for the Truth we sin against Hope. I’m far past 77X and have given up on hope. It’s liberating… Poor you. Leslie Of course you don’t understand. It means I no longer look to straights nor to their structures and organizations for affirmation. Why should I "hope" for something I don’t need? Why should I (or any other gay person) seek to

But the problem is that as a Christian—-as opposed to the odd distinction you make from Christianists—you do need the community. Whether you need their affirmation on your sexuality is debatable, but there is no…….Christianity…. apart from the community. You can’t separate yourself from the body of Christ. And as for the church being a structure that belongs to straights, it never has completely, and we all know that. There were probably gays among the first disciples (though they probably wouldn’t have identified themselves as such as the term didn’t exist at the time) and there will be gays in the church militant at the second coming. Unfortunately, they’ve never been recognised (that we know of) until recently. The church must realize who it has always been—-and accept it before that will change. conform to heterosexual norms of conduct or hope for their permission to exist? It’s quite clear that organized monotheism (especially christianism) has been constructed by and for straights: look at its history, its moralism, its theology. Look at its present-day behavior. (Look at the posted article by N.T. Wright.) Each and every attempt to treat gays as equals under the law is being vehemently opposed by christianist groups up to and including the president and congress (proposed anti-gay marriage amendment and "defense of marriage act" respectively – signed by Clinton)

And there are Christians fighting for gay rights as well–we just don’t make the news. St. Mark’s is delightful example, but who the hell cares about a congregation of 16 regulars?! (Unless you want to start a parish based Canterbury, lol.) There have always been gays in the church, but demographically (like in society) they are a minority, which is why they haven’t been recognized. It sucks, but it is getting better. It can’t get worse. And as to the muslimists: thank GOD I don’t live under any of those barbaric regimes. I’d rather live under a pagan regime any day.

Muslimists? Have you given up leaving that suffix off anybody’s name? So save your pity. The search for Truth doesn’t need a compromised hope.

I’m not comprimising—-but I do pity anyone who has given in to despair. Leslie

Response:

It would have to be written wit disappearing Ink and on onion skin paper. So it could be changed at a moments notice,like Episcopalian beliefs.

Response:

Mycroft, I know. But I also that my Lord answered the question "How many times shall I forgive the one who trespasses against me?" with the mystical number "seven times seventy" — in other words infinitely. If we give up the battle for the Truth we sin against Hope. I’m far past 77X and have given up on hope. It’s liberating…

Poor you. Leslie

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mycroft, I know. But I also that my Lord answered the question "How many times shall I forgive the one who trespasses against me?" with the mystical number "seven times seventy" — in other words infinitely. If we give up the battle for the Truth we sin against Hope. I’m far past 77X and have given up on hope. It’s liberating… Poor you. Leslie

Of course you don’t understand. It means I no longer look to straights nor to their structures and organizations for affirmation. Why should I "hope" for something I don’t need? Why should I (or any other gay person) seek to conform to heterosexual norms of conduct or hope for their permission to exist? It’s quite clear that organized monotheism (especially christianism) has been constructed by and for straights: look at its history, its moralism, its theology. Look at its present-day behavior. (Look at the posted article by N.T. Wright.) Each and every attempt to treat gays as equals under the law is being vehemently opposed by christianist groups up to and including the president and congress (proposed anti-gay marriage amendment and "defense of marriage act" respectively – signed by Clinton). And as to the muslimists: thank GOD I don’t live under any of those barbaric regimes. I’d rather live under a pagan regime any day. So save your pity. The search for Truth doesn’t need a compromised hope. m – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

We’ve seen over time some of the positions of the GLBT community, but not in aggregate, nor in a systematic position. How about it? Anyone care to lay out the platform? Todd H

Response:

We’ve seen over time some of the positions of the GLBT community, but not in aggregate, nor in a systematic position. How about it? Anyone care to lay out the platform? Todd H

It’s not a "platform". It is a statement of what is right. I speak only for myself. I don’t purport to speak for all other GLBT Christians. Recognition that God created us. That God created our sexuality. That God blesses us, and our love for each other and wants us to live and love in fullness and wholeness just as he does "straights". That society and Church recognize and bless what is of God. That we have the same rights without distinction or semantic games. A world where equal = equal. Where the same rules apply to us and to you. For me (other GLBT people will disagree, they will say what I say in private but say I’m too radical) that means both civil marriage and Church marriage. It means "sin" is not defined in terms of the "kind" or physical form of sexual expression. Where "sin" is the failure to commit one’s entire being to commitment and bonding. A world where a gay couple with a successful monagomous marriage is held up to the congregation as the epitome of Christian living. Where sex outside such a union is viewed as Christian failure — gay or straight.

Response:

I thank you for the conciseness of your response.

Humans (no exceptions) are created out of love by the loving Father. We are called to embrace that love (agape) and love one another, everyone. The presence of love also indicates the presence of accountability. That God created our sexuality.

Do you mean how you express your sexuality, or the propensity toward one form or another of such expression, or genetics, or a combination of factors? That God blesses us, and our love for each other and wants us to live and love in fullness and wholeness just as he does "straights".

God’s desire is to reconcile all to Him, but it is a matter of choice (unless you are a determinist). That society and Church recognize and bless what is of God. That we have the same rights without distinction or semantic games. A world where equal = equal. Where the same rules apply to us and to you.

What do you mean by semantic games? For me (other GLBT people will disagree, they will say what I say in private but say I’m too radical) that means both civil marriage and Church

marriage. There is no Scriptural warrant for your position here, but I suppose churches that are reliant more upon cultural ascendency, radical revision, and modern revelatory experience are becoming open to you. It means "sin" is not defined in terms of the "kind" or physical form of sexual expression. Where "sin" is the failure to commit one’s entire being to commitment and bonding.

This is where the ambiguous enters. Are you saying as long as there is consent, there is no sin? Isn’t this where promiscuity comes into play? A world where a gay couple with a successful monagomous marriage is held up to the congregation as the epitome of Christian living. Where sex outside such a union is viewed as Christian failure — gay or straight.

Extra-marital sexual activity is failure (or sin). No one is off the hook here. Marriage is, no matter what anyone says, the hardest work a husband and wife will ever undertake. Post-modern society makes getting out of marriage ridiculously easy, but makes getting into one absurdly so. Marriage without solid and often longsuffering commitment is a sham. On a related point, I may be more radical than you here, Gunny, as I do not believe that anyone (no exceptions) who is divorced should be allowed to ascend to the episcopacy.

Response:

Anyone else?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We’ve seen over time some of the positions of the GLBT community, but not in aggregate, nor in a systematic position. How about it? Anyone care to lay out the platform? Todd H It’s not a "platform". It is a statement of what is right. I speak only for myself. I don’t purport to speak for all other GLBT Christians. Recognition that God created us. That God created our sexuality. That God blesses us, and our love for each other and wants us to live and love in fullness and wholeness just as he does "straights". That society and Church recognize and bless what is of God. That we have the same rights without distinction or semantic games. A world where equal = equal. Where the same rules apply to us and to you. For me (other GLBT people will disagree, they will say what I say in private but say I’m too radical) that means both civil marriage and Church marriage. It means "sin" is not defined in terms of the "kind" or physical form of sexual expression. Where "sin" is the failure to commit one’s entire being to commitment and bonding. A world where a gay couple with a successful monagomous marriage is held up to the congregation as the epitome of Christian living. Where sex outside such a union is viewed as Christian failure — gay or straight.

Response:

Give up up, Gunny. These guys will never accept us. They are merely looking for an argument. m – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

I’m far past 77X and have given up on hope. It’s liberating… m – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We’ve seen over time some of the positions of the GLBT community, but not in aggregate, nor in a systematic position. How about it? Anyone care to lay out the platform? Todd H It’s not a "platform". It is a statement of what is right. I speak only for myself. I don’t purport to speak for all other GLBT Christians. Recognition that God created us. That God created our sexuality. That God blesses us, and our love for each other and wants us to live and love in fullness and wholeness just as he does "straights". That society and Church recognize and bless what is of God. That we have the same rights without distinction or semantic games. A world where equal = equal. Where the same rules apply to us and to you. For me (other GLBT people will disagree, they will say what I say in private but say I’m too radical) that means both civil marriage and Church marriage. It means "sin" is not defined in terms of the "kind" or physical form of sexual expression. Where "sin" is the failure to commit one’s entire being to commitment and bonding. A world where a gay couple with a successful monagomous marriage is held up to the congregation as the epitome of Christian living. Where sex outside such a union is viewed as Christian failure — gay or straight. Give up up, Gunny. These guys will never accept us. They are merely looking for an argument. m

Response:

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