62-Year-Old NEVER Learned About Christ. Kicks Bucket. Goose is Cooked?

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Question:

May I recommend the book or booklet by C. S. Lovett called "Why God Abandons the Heathen" published through Personal Christianity at Box 549 Baldwin Park CA 91706 Phone 818-338-7333 This fully examines the issue and gives one of the best answers I have ever seen.

Response:

Thus, we still are left with the missing piece of the puzzle: The millions of people out of the world’s billions who manage to go through their ENTIRE lives, and then die, having never heard even ONCE, from either missionary or angel, about Jesus…

This is an interesting puzzle for the Evangelists, because if a person can rely on an angel of the lord for his/her enlightenment, then the Evangelist is really pre-empting God’s role in salvation. I remember a story about a Priest and an Eskimo when the Priest told the Eskimo about Jesus, and informed the Eskimo that he now had to make a choice, the Eskimo asked what would have happened to him if the Priest hadn’t told him about Christ. The Priest said that then the Eskimo would be entirely dependent upon God for his salvation. After considering this for a while the Eskimo replied, "perhaps I was better off before." Or something to that effect. What about the unborn child killed in an auto accident, or spina bifida, or the blind and the deaf, etc. Or how about those who received a false Gospel, (i.e. anything other than Calvinism)? Enoch? — They wandered in from the city of St. John Without a Dime. Steely Dan, The Royal Scam

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Thanks, Bob. In the meantime, though, can you post a brief summary of its conclusions in this regard?

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WHO has not heard of Christ? NO ONE! Who’s fault is it that they never seek nor consider what Christ is about? But I"ve also heard of Buddha,and Krishna,and joseph

Smith,Hercules,,aries,Thor etc etc – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

teens and adults out somwhere in the world’s boondocks who neither have heard of God, nor even have any idea that there IS a God? If angels visited all such people during their lifetimes, it seems certain that we not only would have heard about it… but the massive numbers of such visitations would collectively comprise a VERY newsworthy on-going event — which all of US would surely have heard about. (Then too, Cornelius was devout, and DID believe in GOD… which, it would seem likely, made him a more probable candidate for a visitation by a mentoring angel. He might not have known about JESUS, before that time, but his relationship with God surely provided him with some degree of a head start.) and what about those who have turned off by christianity because of

hypocritical christians,bad ambassadors for Christ,christians who speak a lot of Jesus to others,but their own lives don"t reflect the way ,the truth and the life.(or His UNCONDITIONAL LOVE for that matter) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

…and what about those who have turned off by christianity because of hypocritical christians,bad ambassadors for Christ,christians who speak a lot of Jesus to others,but their own lives don"t reflect the way ,the truth and the life.

Turned off to the Lord and Savior Himself or turned off to those who go against Jesus Christ while professing His name? There’s a vast differnce between the two that should be noted. There’s also something to be said regarding the fact Christans are themselves sinners in need of God’s saving love and grace as much as any other individual. As to whether or not these are to be blamed for an individual who remains condemned in his sins by his own stubborness and rebellion in his steadfast rejection of Jesus … Sounds to me as if it’s more of an excuse for a reason not the believe. Someone once stated they would rather not have anything to do with Christians because he felt they were all hypocrites. Well… one more hypocrite won’t hurt. :) (or His UNCONDITIONAL LOVE for that matter)

Depends by what you mean by this. God loves us just as we are. But through the person and work of Jesus He loves us too much to let us stay that way. :) Astalis — "And yet there is a time For everything that’s under heaven. A time to run, a time to stand and fight. So in the face in cold despair, No matter what seems right, Remember darkness drives us to the light…" **from Michael Card’s "Under the Sun"** astalis at epsi dot net morning_light at juno dot com ICQ! Num: 2453141#

Response:

All that you said was quite good and thought-provoking, but doesn’t really provide what I seek. The Bible says that the ONLY way to the Father is through Christ. UNLESS that verse is FALSE, then SOME way for a person to actually learn about Christ MUST occur at some point in EVERYONE’S life. And we know that that just isn’t the case, for millions of people. Thus, does the Bible offer an actual ALTERNATIVE? Or does some opportunity come along AFTER such a person has died? Does the Bible offer ANY answer to THAT dilemma?

I do not see why this is not the case, the bible has been printed In almost if not all the worlds languages, there has been missionaries in every part of the known world. So if the millions of people do not know, it would seem it is there own fault. There is Christian Radio stations reaching most of all the world, TV Christian stations, regularly radio, tracts, literature and so on. So Everyone can have a change to accept that Jesus is the only way. I think you delude yourself with "just isn’t the case" The Bible has reached every known tribe and location that can be reached by missionaries, TV, Radio, Tract and so on. There is no opportunity after a person dies, there is no dilemma. What we do now, will determine where we spend eternity. 2 Cor 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All that you said was quite good and thought-provoking, but doesn’t really provide what I seek. The Bible says that the ONLY way to the Father is through Christ. UNLESS that verse is FALSE, then SOME way for a person to actually learn about Christ MUST occur at some point in EVERYONE’S life. And we know that that just isn’t the case, for millions of people. Thus, does the Bible offer an actual ALTERNATIVE? Or does some opportunity come along AFTER such a person has died? Does the Bible offer ANY answer to THAT dilemma? I do not see why this is not the case, the bible has been printed In almost if not all the worlds languages, there has been missionaries in every part of the known world. So if the millions of people do not know, it would seem it is there own fault. There is Christian Radio stations reaching most of all the world, TV Christian stations, regularly radio, tracts, literature and so on. So Everyone can have a change to accept that Jesus is the only way. I think you delude yourself with "just isn’t the case" The Bible has reached every known tribe and location that can be reached by missionaries, TV, Radio, Tract and so on. There is no opportunity after a person dies, there is no dilemma. What we do now, will determine where we spend eternity. 2 Cor 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Okay. Let’s hypothesize that sufficient means exist today to reach LITERALLY *every* person in the world. Our scenario now becomes worse. FAR worse. For — so far — we have been dealing with the world of 1998, and its technologies. WHAT, then, has been the fate of the billions of people worldwide who lived and died with NO knowledge of Christ, whatsoever… NONE… between, say 100 A.D. and 1850? When there were NONE of the technologies that we have now, for electronic communication, or even basic radio? And when many parts of the world were even uncontacted by missionaries? Let’s make America a Bigotry-Free Zone by 2000. 20th Century — Dark Age of Intolerance and Bigotry 21st Century — Bright Age of Acceptance and Liberty

Response:

I came upon an answer to this which may be of help… Astalis http://www.lcms.org/cic/hearer.html Q. I recently attended a Bible study in which we discussed the fate of those who never had the chance to hear about God. What happens to such people? A.In his book "What’s the Answer?" (Concordia Publishing House, 1960), LCMS theologian Otto Sohn raises the question, "What stand does our church take regarding the heathen who have never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and what is the individual’s responsibility toward these people?" His answer follows: Christ, the Savior of the world, answered the first question in this way: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mark 16:16). The apostle Peter put it another way: "Neither is there salvation in any other; for there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). The same truth is expressed in John 3:16; 18:36; Rom 2:12; Eph. 2:11-13. Though such people have not heard the Gospel, they are without excuse (Rom. 1:19-23; 2:12). God has not left Himself without witness (Acts 14:17), but has revealed His existence by the works of nature and wants men to seek Him, if "haply they might feel after Him and find Him" (Acts 17:27). The Bible also reveals that people who knowingly and willfully reject the Gospel of Jesus will be more severely punished than those who never heard it (Luke12:47, 48). Because of the horrible doom awaiting all those who do not believe in Jesus, we should seek to reach as many as possible with our own fearless witness and ardently support the missionary endeavors of our church on behalf of those whom we cannot reach with out own voice. Nor must we forget our responsibility toward fellow Christians who are on the verge of erring from the truth, whether by word or deed (Gal. 6:1; James 5:19, 20). And lest we should preach to others, but ourselves become castaways, we should be earnestly concerned about our own salvation (Matt. 26:41; 1 Cor. 10:12; Phil. 2:12). — "And yet there is a time For everything that’s under heaven. A time to run, a time to stand and fight. So in the face in cold despair, No matter what seems right, Remember darkness drives us to the light…" **from Michael Card’s "Under the Sun"** astalis at epsi dot net morning_light at juno dot com ICQ! Num: 2453141#

Response:

Hi Craig!

The entire scenario is in the subject line. What about it, gang? Is the poor soul condemned to eternity in HELL, even though NOT ONCE in his or her life did he or she EVER get to hear the gospel message? MILLIONS of people, worldwide, above the age of accountability are in exactly that position. Do they become God’s spiritual road kill because they never accepted Christ — EVEN THOUGH they never even HEARD of Him, OR His message? Or does God somehow give them a chance? If the latter, do you know any biblical support for that?

Let’s look at a scripture verse, and you determine…. Acts 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, Acts 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. Acts 10:3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. Interesting!!!! This man asked God the way. And God showed him. Cornelious was no different than any other man. The desire of the Lord is that all come to repentance: 2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. — Arthur http://www.cgocable.net/~azuza

Response:

I hope the guy at least got laid once in a while, so he’d have a few happy memories to carry with him regardless of his destination. Paul

Response:

WHO has not heard of Christ? NO ONE! Who’s fault is it that they never seek nor consider what Christ is about? Who is kept from a bible? No One, not anyone is the civilized world anyway. NO they choose to ignore Christ. Christ has been heard of since His death and resurrection. No one is given excuse because they were more concerned with their own pleasures in this life, rather than seeking God. It’s no one fault but their own.. Dore – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The entire scenario is in the subject line. What about it, gang? Is the poor soul condemned to eternity in HELL, even though NOT ONCE in his or her life did he or she EVER get to hear the gospel message? MILLIONS of people, worldwide, above the age of accountability are in exactly that position. Do they become God’s spiritual road kill because they never accepted Christ — EVEN THOUGH they never even HEARD of Him, OR His message? Or does God somehow give them a chance? If the latter, do you know any biblical support for that?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The entire scenario is in the subject line. What about it, gang? Is the poor soul condemned to eternity in HELL, even though NOT ONCE in his or her life did he or she EVER get to hear the gospel message? MILLIONS of people, worldwide, above the age of accountability are in exactly that position. Do they become God’s spiritual road kill because they never accepted Christ — EVEN THOUGH they never even HEARD of Him, OR His message? Or does God somehow give them a chance? If the latter, do you know any biblical support for that? Hi Craig! Let’s look at a scripture verse, and you determine…. Acts 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, Acts 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. Acts 10:3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. Interesting!!!! This man asked God the way. And God showed him. Cornelius was no different than any other man. The desire of the Lord is that all come to repentance: 2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. — Arthur http://www.cgocable.net/~azuza

Excellent response, Arthur, and much appreciated. And it surely does put a piece of the puzzle in place. However, there are still some pieces missing. What about the teens and adults out somwhere in the world’s boondocks who neither have heard of God, nor even have any idea that there IS a God? If angels visited all such people during their lifetimes, it seems certain that we not only would have heard about it… but the massive numbers of such visitations would collectively comprise a VERY newsworthy on-going event — which all of US would surely have heard about. (Then too, Cornelius was devout, and DID believe in GOD… which, it would seem likely, made him a more probable candidate for a visitation by a mentoring angel. He might not have known about JESUS, before that time, but his relationship with God surely provided him with some degree of a head start.) Thus, we still are left with the missing piece of the puzzle: The millions of people out of the world’s billions who manage to go through their ENTIRE lives, and then die, having never heard even ONCE, from either missionary or angel, about Jesus…

Response:

Oh good grief, Dore. Do you EVER put up a post in which you don’t display abject ignorance right from the get-go? Who’s fault is it that they never seek nor consider what Christ is about? Who is kept from a bible?

There are literally millions of people in the world right now over the age of 12 who have never once heard of Jesus, or even knows that the Bible exists. And that is NO fault of theirs. No One, not anyone is the civilized world anyway.

It’s the NON-civilized world that we’re discussing here, for the most part. So much for your "no one" claim in the first sentence of your response. NO they choose to ignore Christ.

This thread is not about people who have heard about Christ, or who CHOOSE to ignore Him. Read the subject line. Christ has been heard of since His death and resurrection.

By most people, yes. Not, by any means, by all. No one is given excuse because they were more concerned with their own pleasures in this life, rather than seeking God.

This thread is about people who don’t even KNOW that there is a God to seek. It’s no one fault but their own..

CALLOUS critter, aren’t you? Dore

Response:

<snip most of an excellent response, to home in on bottom line So yes, the 62 year-old, if he has never responded to the light of his conscience and somehow sought God, and then if he at that point never responded further to the light God gave him at the point he was at, he wound up eternally lost.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The entire scenario is in the subject line. What about it, gang? Is the poor soul condemned to eternity in HELL, even though NOT ONCE in his or her life did he or she EVER get to hear the gospel message? MILLIONS of people, worldwide, above the age of accountability are in exactly that position. Do they become God’s spiritual road kill because they never accepted Christ — EVEN THOUGH they never even HEARD of Him, OR His message? Or does God somehow give them a chance? If the latter, do you know any biblical support for that?

Interesting hypothetical. However, it’s been my experience that if a person exists who has an honest, open heart to know God–then God will find some way for him to hear of the Good News. In Romans 1, Paul alludes to the fact that all men have the testimony of the reality of God in the creation of His which they see in the world around them. An axiom seems to be that if one responds to the light they have, more light will be given. Paul also says in Romans 2:14 that each man has imprinted upon his heart a "conscience" of sorts that lets him know, deep inside, right from wrong. And each man, in turn, sooner or later makes the choice to ignore that conscience and willingly commit sin. However, God has no obligation to send an angel or something to every cannibal in the jungles who hasn’t had the opportunity to hear a preacher. He’s given Christianity that task, and most of us fail at it because, whether one is a Christian or not, one has the free will to do what God says or not. But let’s go beyond this to deal with the heart of your apparent question whether God isn’t "nice" if he sends some guy short of Hitler to Hell in the first place… What criteria should a perfect God go by to let someone into Heaven–let everyone in? OK…would that include Hitler? No? Why exclude him? Because he wasn’t a "good person"? OK…so just be a good person and that should be enough? What then constitutes being a "good person"? I guess it would depend on one’s lifestyle, right? So imagine for a moment that there was some standard of righteous living that could get us into Heaven. Just how high a standard would it be, and how could we know for certain that we had never failed to reach that standard? What if the standard were to live a life as good as Mother Teresa

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