Question:

I’m not sure that any person who isn’t GLBT can really "get" what the experience of being GLBT in a church which is "working on" accepting us as fully acceptable humans feels like,

The Episcopal Church is doing no such thing. It has accepted homosexuals as persons for years and has ordained scores of practicing homosexuals, including more than one bishop. What more do you want, KY dispensers in the men’s room? what it does to the spirit, to our ability to live fully into the people God made us to be.  I recommend to all folks who don’t "get it" that they engage in an intentional focus on compassion.

It isn’t about compassion. If you would stop feeling sorry for yourself you might come closer to seeing the truth as it really is. Charles Hohenstein

Response:

We’ve seen over time some of the positions of the GLBT community, but not in aggregate, nor in a systematic position. How about it?  Anyone care to lay out the platform?

You seem to be laboring under the common misapprehension that all gays goose-step to a universal "agenda" to which we are all privy through some sort of underground network.  There are some organizations, none of which has more than a few thousand members (homosexual Americans number in the millions, by the most conservative estimates) which have published programs or "agendas".  They are by no means universally, known, understood, nor accepted. If you actually care about this subject, and are not merely baiting, make the effort to actually know a gay person and ask her/him. I would be happy to tell you my opinions, if you really want to know. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Todd H

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Gee, for somebody whose church consecrated a gay bishop amid international opposition last year, you sure see a half empty glass, don’t cha? Leslie, for some GLBT folk it’s too little too late.  I have a friend who is a gay man who has been struggling for years with his local Episcopal bishops around the topic of ordination.  Finally in frustration, he joined one of the offshoots of ECUSA, the Evangelical Anglican Church of America, which is totally open to GLBT folks.  He is now a priest and has a flourishing ministry. That’s good…..and if it were anyone else, I would be extremely sympathetic…..but Louis has worn out my sympathy and spat on it several times.  No offense, but I’m sick and tired of standing up for people who don’t return the favor.  I guess I should killfile him and spare myself the misery that comes with attempting to shine light into his dungeon hole, but I would miss so much fine bitching.

Spoken like a true christer. m – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m not sure that any person who isn’t GLBT can really "get" what the experience of being GLBT in a church which is "working on" accepting us as fully acceptable humans feels like, what it does to the spirit, to our ability to live fully into the people God made us to be.  I recommend to all folks who don’t "get it" that they engage in an intentional focus on compassion. Priscilla, if I were any more intentionally compassionate—-I’d—-I dunno. Let’s just say my conscience is clear on the matter, and I’m doing what I can. It’s probably not worth going through explaining myself. Leslie.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Gee, for somebody whose church consecrated a gay bishop amid international opposition last year, you sure see a half empty glass, don’t cha? Leslie, for some GLBT folk it’s too little too late.  I have a friend who is a gay man who has been struggling for years with his local Episcopal bishops around the topic of ordination.  Finally in frustration, he joined one of the offshoots of ECUSA, the Evangelical Anglican Church of America, which is totally open to GLBT folks.  He is now a priest and has a flourishing ministry. That’s good…..and if it were anyone else, I would be extremely sympathetic…..but Louis has worn out my sympathy and spat on it several times.  No offense, but I’m sick and tired of standing up for people who don’t return the favor.  I guess I should killfile him and spare myself the misery that comes with attempting to shine light into his dungeon hole, but I would miss so much fine bitching. Spoken like a true christer.

Spoken like  a bitter old man who can’t take what he dishes out. Leslie

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gee, for somebody whose church consecrated a gay bishop amid international opposition last year, you sure see a half empty glass, don’t cha? Leslie, for some GLBT folk it’s too little too late.  I have a friend who is a gay man who has been struggling for years with his local Episcopal bishops around the topic of ordination.  Finally in frustration, he joined one of the offshoots of ECUSA, the Evangelical Anglican Church of America, which is totally open to GLBT folks.  He is now a priest and has a flourishing ministry. I’m not sure that any person who isn’t GLBT can really "get" what the experience of being GLBT in a church which is "working on" accepting us as fully acceptable humans feels like, what it does to the spirit, to our ability to live fully into the people God made us to be.  I recommend to all folks who don’t "get it" that they engage in an intentional focus on compassion. Priscilla

It’s fascinating, isn’t it Pri, that a religion which claims as its primary values love, mercy, reconciliation, justice & compassion has spent so much of its history (up to and including today) doing the exact opposite? Oh, sure, there are a few Christians here and there who, despite the Church, attempt to live up to these standards, but _over all_, as an institution, as an ideology, it does not. And now, with a few baby steps being taken to treat gays as something other than vermin, a huge outcry and reaction has occured, primates from around the world are organizing to cast the unclean out and individual Christians are being urged (or commanded under threat) to vote their prejudices and oppose any reforms. Really, when one looks at it objectively, it’s secular culture which is our best hope and our main protector. You are right in recommending a practice of compassion. However, I am not holding my breath. The smugness and ignorance of straights seems to be without limit. When not expressing outright hatred (conservatives), they are assuring us that things are getting better and we just have to be patient (liberals). As you say, they just don’t "get it." In a way, it’s hard to blame them, as they haven’t had the experience we have had it’s almost impossible for them to understand our reaction to their condescension. The thing that keeps me going is that I am sure that Christ "gets it." Who needs the straight-dominated Church when we have Him? m

Response:

Pope decries "self-centered demands" of same-sex couples In his latest assessment of U.S. society, Pope John Paul II has denounced the acceptance of abortion and marriage for same-sex couples as "self-centered demands" erroneously depicted as human rights. Read it all… http://www.advocate.com/new_news.asp?ID=12648&sd=06/04/04

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gee, for somebody whose church consecrated a gay bishop amid international opposition last year, you sure see a half empty glass, don’t cha? Leslie, for some GLBT folk it’s too little too late.  I have a friend who is a gay man who has been struggling for years with his local Episcopal bishops around the topic of ordination.  Finally in frustration, he joined one of the offshoots of ECUSA, the Evangelical Anglican Church of America, which is totally open to GLBT folks.  He is now a priest and has a flourishing ministry. I’m not sure that any person who isn’t GLBT can really "get" what the experience of being GLBT in a church which is "working on" accepting us as fully acceptable humans feels like, what it does to the spirit, to our ability to live fully into the people God made us to be.  I recommend to all folks who don’t "get it" that they engage in an intentional focus on compassion. Priscilla It’s fascinating, isn’t it Pri, that a religion which claims as its primary values love, mercy, reconciliation, justice & compassion has spent so much of its history (up to and including today) doing the exact opposite? Oh, sure, there are a few Christians here and there who, despite the Church, attempt to live up to these standards, but _over all_, as an institution, as an ideology, it does not. And now, with a few baby steps being taken to treat gays as something other than vermin, a huge outcry and reaction has occured, primates from around the world are organizing to cast the unclean out and individual Christians are being urged (or commanded under threat) to vote their prejudices and oppose any reforms. Really, when one looks at it objectively, it’s secular culture which is our best hope and our main protector. You are right in recommending a practice of compassion. However, I am not holding my breath. The smugness and ignorance of straights seems to be without limit. When not expressing outright hatred (conservatives), they are assuring us that things are getting better and we just have to be patient (liberals). As you say, they just don’t "get it." In a way, it’s hard to blame them, as they haven’t had the experience we have had it’s almost impossible for them to understand our reaction to their condescension. The thing that keeps me going is that I am sure that Christ "gets it." Who needs the straight-dominated Church when we have Him?

I don’t really have anything to say in response.  I have no argument for you.  I’m able to hang in, and you need to take a different path.   Neither of us is doing the "wrong" or "right" thing.   Peace, Louis. Priscilla

Response:

: Gee, for somebody whose church consecrated a gay bishop amid international opposition last year, you sure see a half empty glass, don’t cha? Leslie, for some GLBT folk it’s too little too late.  I have a friend who is a gay man who has been struggling for years with his local Episcopal bishops around the topic of ordination.  Finally in frustration, he joined one of the offshoots of ECUSA, the Evangelical Anglican Church of America, which is totally open to GLBT folks.  He is now a priest and has a flourishing ministry.

That’s good…..and if it were anyone else, I would be extremely sympathetic…..but Louis has worn out my sympathy and spat on it several times.  No offense, but I’m sick and tired of standing up for people who don’t return the favor.  I guess I should killfile him and spare myself the misery that comes with attempting to shine light into his dungeon hole, but I would miss so much fine bitching. I’m not sure that any person who isn’t GLBT can really "get" what the experience of being GLBT in a church which is "working on" accepting us as fully acceptable humans feels like, what it does to the spirit, to our ability to live fully into the people God made us to be.  I recommend to all folks who don’t "get it" that they engage in an intentional focus on compassion.

Priscilla, if I were any more intentionally compassionate—-I’d—-I dunno. Let’s just say my conscience is clear on the matter, and I’m doing what I can. It’s probably not worth going through explaining myself. Leslie.

Response:

But the problem is that as a Christian—-as opposed to the odd distinction you make from Christianists—you do need the community.  Whether you need their affirmation on your sexuality is debatable, but there is no…….Christianity…. apart from the community.     You can’t separate yourself from the body of Christ. I see. So Christ will turn his back on me because I don’t belong to some christian organization?

No.  That’s not what I was saying.  I would say you should know me better by now but…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  And as for the church being a structure that belongs to straights, it never has completely, and we all know that. There were probably gays among the first disciples (though they probably wouldn’t have identified themselves as such as the term didn’t exist at the time) and there will be gays in the church militant at the second coming. Unfortunately, they’ve never been recognised (that we know of) until recently.  The church must realize who it has always been—-and accept it before that will change. The may be gays in the church, but the "Body" patently regards us as little better than cancer cells.

Gee, for somebody whose church consecrated a gay bishop amid international opposition last year, you sure see a half empty glass, don’t cha? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – conform to heterosexual norms of conduct or hope for their permission to exist? It’s quite clear that organized monotheism (especially christianism) has been constructed by and for straights: look at its history, its moralism, its theology. Look at its present-day behavior. (Look at the posted article by N.T. Wright.) Each and every attempt to treat gays as equals under the law is being vehemently opposed by christianist groups up to and including the president and congress (proposed anti-gay marriage amendment and "defense of marriage act" respectively – signed by Clinton) And there are Christians fighting for gay rights as well–we just don’t make the news.  St. Mark’s is delightful example, but who the hell cares about a congregation of 16 regulars?! (Unless you want to start a parish based Canterbury, lol.)   There have always been gays in the church, but demographically (like in society) they are a minority, which is why they haven’t been recognized.  It sucks, but it is getting better.  It can’t get worse. Really? I disagree.

Okee dokeee, louis, go ahead, be miserable.  nothing I can do about it. So save your pity. The search for Truth doesn’t need a compromised hope. I’m not compromising—-but I do pity anyone who has given in to despair. Thanks for your smug condescension.

Actually, I was trying to help.  Not that you would understand that coming from an evil straight person. Leslie

Response:

Gee, for somebody whose church consecrated a gay bishop amid international opposition last year, you sure see a half empty glass, don’t cha?

Leslie, for some GLBT folk it’s too little too late.  I have a friend who is a gay man who has been struggling for years with his local Episcopal bishops around the topic of ordination.  Finally in frustration, he joined one of the offshoots of ECUSA, the Evangelical Anglican Church of America, which is totally open to GLBT folks.  He is now a priest and has a flourishing ministry. I’m not sure that any person who isn’t GLBT can really "get" what the experience of being GLBT in a church which is "working on" accepting us as fully acceptable humans feels like, what it does to the spirit, to our ability to live fully into the people God made us to be.  I recommend to all folks who don’t "get it" that they engage in an intentional focus on compassion. Priscilla

Response:

We’ve seen over time some of the positions of the GLBT community, but not in aggregate, nor in a systematic position. How about it?  Anyone care to lay out the platform?

I don’t think there is a "systematic position"…….I don’t think there is a platform.  This is something my fellow straights often fail to understand—-THERE IS NO "GAY AGENDA"—-It’s a myth.  It doesn’t exist. The glbt community is diverse enough that they have a lot of different opinions, and contrary to popular rumor, they are not uniformly organized. Am I the only one who thought that needed to be said? Leslie

Response:

I don’t think there is a "systematic position"…….I don’t think there is a platform.  This is something my fellow straights often fail to understand—-THERE IS NO "GAY AGENDA"—-It’s a myth.  It doesn’t exist. The glbt community is diverse enough that they have a lot of different opinions, and contrary to popular rumor, they are not uniformly organized. Am I the only one who thought that needed to be said?

No, but the rest of us aren’t feeding the trolls. Priscilla — "Come to Planet Earth! Watch people with brains not use them! Several shows daily! Free admittance!"  Keera Ann Fox in alt.support.menopause

Response:

But the problem is that as a Christian—-as opposed to the odd distinction you make from Christianists—you do need the community.  Whether you need their affirmation on your sexuality is debatable, but there is no…….Christianity…. apart from the community.     You can’t separate yourself from the body of Christ.

I see. So Christ will turn his back on me because I don’t belong to some christian organization?  And as for the church being a structure that belongs to straights, it never has completely, and we all know that. There were probably gays among the first disciples (though they probably wouldn’t have identified themselves as such as the term didn’t exist at the time) and there will be gays in the church militant at the second coming. Unfortunately, they’ve never been recognised (that we know of) until recently.  The church must realize who it has always been—-and accept it before that will change.

The may be gays in the church, but the "Body" patently regards us as little better than cancer cells. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – conform to heterosexual norms of conduct or hope for their permission to exist? It’s quite clear that organized monotheism (especially christianism) has been constructed by and for straights: look at its history, its moralism, its theology. Look at its present-day behavior. (Look at the posted article by N.T. Wright.) Each and every attempt to treat gays as equals under the law is being vehemently opposed by christianist groups up to and including the president and congress (proposed anti-gay marriage amendment and "defense of marriage act" respectively – signed by Clinton) And there are Christians fighting for gay rights as well–we just don’t make the news.  St. Mark’s is delightful example, but who the hell cares about a congregation of 16 regulars?! (Unless you want to start a parish based Canterbury, lol.)   There have always been gays in the church, but demographically (like in society) they are a minority, which is why they haven’t been recognized.  It sucks, but it is getting better.  It can’t get worse.

Really? I disagree. So save your pity. The search for Truth doesn’t need a compromised hope. I’m not compromising—-but I do pity anyone who has given in to despair.

Thanks for your smug condescension. m – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Leslie

Response:

John, As Episcopalians we don’t look at the building blocks of faith in the same way you do. It is a hazy structure. Rather it is the animating presence inside the building of theology that we look to. As a boy my mom taught me Zorastrianism while I was in confirmation class. I told my rector this and he had no problem with that. At my confirmation I felt God’s presence. Praise be to Ahura Mazda and the Amesha Spentas! (in Jesus name and I am not saying that mockingly). Brian J Dawson

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It would have to be  written wit disappearing Ink  and on onion skin paper. So it could be changed at a moments notice,like Episcopalian beliefs.

Response:

Mycroft, I know.  But I also that my Lord answered the question "How – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – many times shall I forgive the one who trespasses against me?"  with the mystical number "seven times seventy" —  in other words infinitely.  If we give up the battle for the Truth we sin against Hope. I’m far past 77X and have given up on hope. It’s liberating… Poor you. Leslie Of course you don’t understand. It means I no longer look to straights nor to their structures and organizations for affirmation. Why should I "hope" for something I don’t need? Why should I (or any other gay person) seek to

But the problem is that as a Christian—-as opposed to the odd distinction you make from Christianists—you do need the community.  Whether you need their affirmation on your sexuality is debatable, but there is no…….Christianity…. apart from the community.     You can’t separate yourself from the body of Christ.  And as for the church being a structure that belongs to straights, it never has completely, and we all know that. There were probably gays among the first disciples (though they probably wouldn’t have identified themselves as such as the term didn’t exist at the time) and there will be gays in the church militant at the second coming. Unfortunately, they’ve never been recognised (that we know of) until recently.  The church must realize who it has always been—-and accept it before that will change. conform to heterosexual norms of conduct or hope for their permission to exist? It’s quite clear that organized monotheism (especially christianism) has been constructed by and for straights: look at its history, its moralism, its theology. Look at its present-day behavior. (Look at the posted article by N.T. Wright.) Each and every attempt to treat gays as equals under the law is being vehemently opposed by christianist groups up to and including the president and congress (proposed anti-gay marriage amendment and "defense of marriage act" respectively – signed by Clinton)

And there are Christians fighting for gay rights as well–we just don’t make the news.  St. Mark’s is delightful example, but who the hell cares about a congregation of 16 regulars?! (Unless you want to start a parish based Canterbury, lol.)   There have always been gays in the church, but demographically (like in society) they are a minority, which is why they haven’t been recognized.  It sucks, but it is getting better.  It can’t get worse. And as to the muslimists: thank GOD I don’t live under any of those barbaric regimes. I’d rather live under a pagan regime any day.

Muslimists?  Have you given up leaving that suffix off anybody’s name? So save your pity. The search for Truth doesn’t need a compromised hope.

I’m not comprimising—-but I do pity anyone who has given in to despair. Leslie

Response:

It would have to be  written wit disappearing Ink  and on onion skin paper. So it could be changed at a moments notice,like Episcopalian beliefs.

Response:

Mycroft, I know.  But I also that my Lord answered the question "How many times shall I forgive the one who trespasses against me?"  with the mystical number "seven times seventy" —  in other words infinitely.  If we give up the battle for the Truth we sin against Hope. I’m far past 77X and have given up on hope. It’s liberating…

Poor you. Leslie

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mycroft, I know.  But I also that my Lord answered the question "How many times shall I forgive the one who trespasses against me?"  with the mystical number "seven times seventy" —  in other words infinitely.  If we give up the battle for the Truth we sin against Hope. I’m far past 77X and have given up on hope. It’s liberating… Poor you. Leslie

Of course you don’t understand. It means I no longer look to straights nor to their structures and organizations for affirmation. Why should I "hope" for something I don’t need? Why should I (or any other gay person) seek to conform to heterosexual norms of conduct or hope for their permission to exist? It’s quite clear that organized monotheism (especially christianism) has been constructed by and for straights: look at its history, its moralism, its theology. Look at its present-day behavior. (Look at the posted article by N.T. Wright.) Each and every attempt to treat gays as equals under the law is being vehemently opposed by christianist groups up to and including the president and congress (proposed anti-gay marriage amendment and "defense of marriage act" respectively – signed by Clinton). And as to the muslimists: thank GOD I don’t live under any of those barbaric regimes. I’d rather live under a pagan regime any day. So save your pity. The search for Truth doesn’t need a compromised hope. m – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

We’ve seen over time some of the positions of the GLBT community, but not in aggregate, nor in a systematic position. How about it?  Anyone care to lay out the platform? Todd H

Response:

We’ve seen over time some of the positions of the GLBT community, but not in aggregate, nor in a systematic position. How about it?  Anyone care to lay out the platform? Todd H

It’s not a "platform".  It is a statement of what is right. I speak only for myself.  I don’t purport to speak for all other GLBT Christians. Recognition that God created us. That God created our sexuality. That God blesses us, and our love for each other and wants us to live and love in fullness and wholeness just as he does "straights". That society and Church recognize and bless what is of God.  That we have the same rights without distinction or semantic games.  A world where equal = equal.  Where the same rules apply to us and to you. For me (other GLBT people will disagree, they will say what I say in private but say I’m too radical) that means both civil marriage and Church marriage. It means "sin" is not defined in terms of the "kind" or physical form of sexual expression.  Where "sin" is the failure to commit one’s entire being to commitment and bonding.  A world where a gay couple with a successful monagomous marriage is held up to the congregation as the epitome of Christian living.  Where sex outside such a union is viewed as Christian failure — gay or straight.

Response:

I thank you for the conciseness of your response.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We’ve seen over time some of the positions of the GLBT community, but not in aggregate, nor in a systematic position. How about it?  Anyone care to lay out the platform? Todd H It’s not a "platform".  It is a statement of what is right. I speak only for myself.  I don’t purport to speak for all other GLBT Christians. Recognition that God created us.

Humans (no exceptions) are created out of love by the loving Father.  We are called to embrace that love (agape) and love one another, everyone.  The presence of love also indicates the presence of accountability. That God created our sexuality.

Do you mean how you express your sexuality, or the propensity toward one form or another of such expression, or genetics, or a combination of factors? That God blesses us, and our love for each other and wants us to live and love in fullness and wholeness just as he does "straights".

God’s desire is to reconcile all to Him, but it is a matter of choice (unless you are a determinist). That society and Church recognize and bless what is of God.  That we have the same rights without distinction or semantic games.  A world where equal = equal.  Where the same rules apply to us and to you.

What do you mean by semantic games? For me (other GLBT people will disagree, they will say what I say in private but say I’m too radical) that means both civil marriage and Church

marriage. There is no Scriptural warrant for your position here, but I suppose churches that are reliant more upon cultural ascendency, radical revision, and modern revelatory experience are becoming open to you. It means "sin" is not defined in terms of the "kind" or physical form of sexual expression.  Where "sin" is the failure to commit one’s entire being to commitment and bonding.

This is where the ambiguous enters.  Are you saying as long as there is consent, there is no sin?  Isn’t this where promiscuity comes into play? A world where a gay couple with a successful monagomous marriage is held up to the congregation as the epitome of Christian living.  Where sex outside such a union is viewed as Christian failure — gay or straight.

Extra-marital sexual activity is failure (or sin).  No one is off the hook here.  Marriage is, no matter what anyone says, the hardest work a husband and wife will ever undertake.  Post-modern society makes getting out of marriage ridiculously easy, but makes getting into one absurdly so. Marriage without solid and often longsuffering commitment  is a sham. On a related point, I may be more radical than you here, Gunny, as I do not believe that anyone (no exceptions) who is divorced should be allowed to ascend to the episcopacy.

Response:

Anyone else?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We’ve seen over time some of the positions of the GLBT community, but not in aggregate, nor in a systematic position. How about it?  Anyone care to lay out the platform? Todd H It’s not a "platform".  It is a statement of what is right. I speak only for myself.  I don’t purport to speak for all other GLBT Christians. Recognition that God created us. That God created our sexuality. That God blesses us, and our love for each other and wants us to live and love in fullness and wholeness just as he does "straights". That society and Church recognize and bless what is of God.  That we have the same rights without distinction or semantic games.  A world where equal = equal.  Where the same rules apply to us and to you. For me (other GLBT people will disagree, they will say what I say in private but say I’m too radical) that means both civil marriage and Church marriage. It means "sin" is not defined in terms of the "kind" or physical form of sexual expression.  Where "sin" is the failure to commit one’s entire being to commitment and bonding.  A world where a gay couple with a successful monagomous marriage is held up to the congregation as the epitome of Christian living.  Where sex outside such a union is viewed as Christian failure — gay or straight.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We’ve seen over time some of the positions of the GLBT community, but not in aggregate, nor in a systematic position. How about it?  Anyone care to lay out the platform? Todd H It’s not a "platform".  It is a statement of what is right. I speak only for myself.  I don’t purport to speak for all other GLBT Christians. Recognition that God created us. That God created our sexuality. That God blesses us, and our love for each other and wants us to live and love in fullness and wholeness just as he does "straights". That society and Church recognize and bless what is of God.  That we have the same rights without distinction or semantic games.  A world where equal = equal.  Where the same rules apply to us and to you. For me (other GLBT people will disagree, they will say what I say in private but say I’m too radical) that means both civil marriage and Church marriage. It means "sin" is not defined in terms of the "kind" or physical form of sexual expression.  Where "sin" is the failure to commit one’s entire being to commitment and bonding.  A world where a gay couple with a successful monagomous marriage is held up to the congregation as the epitome of Christian living.  Where sex outside such a union is viewed as Christian failure — gay or straight.

Give up up, Gunny. These guys will never accept us. They are merely looking for an argument. m – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Mycroft, I know.  But I also that my Lord answered the question "How many times shall I forgive the one who trespasses against me?"  with the mystical number "seven times seventy" —  in other words infinitely.  If we give up the battle for the Truth we sin against Hope.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We’ve seen over time some of the positions of the GLBT community, but not in aggregate, nor in a systematic position. How about it?  Anyone care to lay out the platform? Todd H It’s not a "platform".  It is a statement of what is right. I speak only for myself.  I don’t purport to speak for all other GLBT Christians. Recognition that God created us. That God created our sexuality. That God blesses us, and our love for each other and wants us to live and love in fullness and wholeness just as he does "straights". That society and Church recognize and bless what is of God.  That we have the same rights without distinction or semantic games.  A world where equal = equal.  Where the same rules apply to us and to you. For me (other GLBT people will disagree, they will say what I say in private but say I’m too radical) that means both civil marriage and Church marriage. It means "sin" is not defined in terms of the "kind" or physical form of sexual expression.  Where "sin" is the failure to commit one’s entire being to commitment and bonding.  A world where a gay couple with a successful monagomous marriage is held up to the congregation as the epitome of Christian living.  Where sex outside such a union is viewed as Christian failure — gay or straight. Give up up, Gunny. These guys will never accept us. They are merely looking for an argument. m

Response:

Mycroft, I know.  But I also that my Lord answered the question "How many times shall I forgive the one who trespasses against me?"  with the mystical number "seven times seventy" —  in other words infinitely.  If we give up the battle for the Truth we sin against Hope.

I’m far past 77X and have given up on hope. It’s liberating… m – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We’ve seen over time some of the positions of the GLBT community, but not in aggregate, nor in a systematic position. How about it?  Anyone care to lay out the platform? Todd H It’s not a "platform".  It is a statement of what is right. I speak only for myself.  I don’t purport to speak for all other GLBT Christians. Recognition that God created us. That God created our sexuality. That God blesses us, and our love for each other and wants us to live and love in fullness and wholeness just as he does "straights". That society and Church recognize and bless what is of God.  That we have the same rights without distinction or semantic games.  A world where equal = equal.  Where the same rules apply to us and to you. For me (other GLBT people will disagree, they will say what I say in private but say I’m too radical) that means both civil marriage and Church marriage. It means "sin" is not defined in terms of the "kind" or physical form of sexual expression.  Where "sin" is the failure to commit one’s entire being to commitment and bonding.  A world where a gay couple with a successful monagomous marriage is held up to the congregation as the epitome of Christian living.  Where sex outside such a union is viewed as Christian failure — gay or straight. Give up up, Gunny. These guys will never accept us. They are merely looking for an argument. m

Response:

Question:

If TNMM is not Catholic, then he can have it "both ways".  A non-Catholic has every right to agree or disagree with Catholic doctrine as they see fit.

OK, that’s certainly a fair statement. We as Anglicans also claim a right to "pick and choose" from among the received elements of the Apostolic Church, emphasizing those which we find most meaningful and helpful in our own spiritual lives. But "TNMM" just posted a "fancy fandango" dance-around-the-issue reply, saying it doesn’t really matter to him WHAT two people do in bed, as long as they’re a man and a woman. If he can assert his private and ersonal "ad hoc" code of sexual morality, so can we; but neither of our "codes" owes anything to the "teachings" being churned out of the Vatican — since each of our personal codes (the one regarding same-sex partnerships, the other regarding marital contraception) violates Vatican sexual teachings in a fundamental way. So why even bother to drag the "Roman Pontificators" into it from the get-go, since neither of us feels "bound" by what they declare? Doing so is a meaningless "red herring". In this case, TNMM is recognizing the fact that the RCC is right on this issue.

Which is, of course, merely an assertion of your private and personal opinion, and a "begging of the question" which has torn quite a rip in the Anglican Communion. There are good bishops supporting your position, and there are equally good bishops opposing it, both in England and in the United States. Gene Robinson aside, let’s not forget that there were many English bishops who SUPPORTED the consecration of Canon Jeffrey John, and felt he was wronged in being faorced to stand down, merely because of his sexual orientation. Do a cursory google search and you will find that it was virtually impossible for young Germans to avoid membership in the Hitler Youth after Hitler came to power.

Also a fair statement…and I’d be absolutely disposed never to mention his embarrassing affiliation again, were it not for the persistently (and chillingly) totalitarian cast of just about everything he writes. His high-handed arrogance does not imply a true "metanoia", a turning-away from an authoritarian history — in the way that, say, writing a theology which exhibited deep kindness, humility and compassion (so evident in the work of Fr. Bede Griffiths and Fr. Tom Merton) might actually testify.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Excerpt from CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON THE PASTORAL CARE OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS <sniparoo To chose someone of the same sex for one’s sexual activity is to annul the rich symbolism and meaning, not to mention the goals, of the Creator’s sexual design. Homosexual activity is not a complementary union, able to transmit life; and so it thwarts the call to a life of that form of self-giving which the Gospel says is the essence of Christian living. This does not mean that homosexual persons are not often generous and giving of themselves; but when they engage in homosexual activity they confirm within themselves a disordered sexual inclination which is essentially self-indulgent. So, do you also agree with the Vatican that the use of medical contraception by heterosexual married couples is "morally disordered" and "self-indulgent", for the very same stipulated reasons (i.e., the activity "is not a complementary union, able to transmit life")? Because that’s precisely what the Vatican argues, regarding married couples’ use of birth control. You can’t have it both ways, TNMM. Either you’re with the Vatican’s "program" on human sexuality, or you’re not. You can’t pick and choose "a la carte" options — at least according to the way THEY define sexual morality, under the terms of a very flawed and inadequate medieval theology of "natural law".

RATzinger’s statement automatically nullifies itself by saying "To CHOSE someone of the same sex for one’s sexual activity."   CHOSE??!! No comments. To absolutely comply with the fossilized and absurd decrees of RATzinger and his "office," complying with the ban on using artificial contraceptives is not enough.  Conformity with Saint Augustine’s teachings maybe necessary where the careful "positioning" of the male and female are carefully observed and maintained during sex.  Further, what about other non-procreative sexual practices or oral sex, not to mention coitus interruptus (withdrawal).  All are based on flawed "laws" of ignorance of the human sexuality. As in every moral disorder, homosexual activity prevents one’s own fulfillment and happiness

The fool who wrote that did not stop to think that a person’s own fulfillment and happiness is something that every person has to find for himself and is not some code written in the palaces of the Vatican. by acting contrary to the creative wisdom of God.

The creative wisdom of God created gays as they are and therefore, there is not acting contrary to his wisdom.  If this natural need is wrong then God is paradoxically wrong. Classic Vatican Orwellian "doublespeak". Bondage is liberty. Denial of our love is the fulfillment of "the creative wisdom of God". Repression is happiness. Repeat it often enough, and maybe people will start to internalize it. Not to mention what great role models for their own "theology of sexuality" the Catholic clergy turned out to be. Cardinal Ratzinger — the Pope’s ghost-writer, who’s responsible for this "newspeak" noodling — has about as much theological credibility as the captain of the "Hitler Youth" in which he was enrolled during the 1940s. Enough with the Vatican nonsense, already.

Pope’s ghost-writer (I love this term of "endearment") RATzinger, the little Tin Hitler, is already exposed.  He is the corrupter of the church while hiding behind Karol Wojtyla’s skirt. Shan

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Excerpt from CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON THE PASTORAL CARE OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS <sniparoo To chose someone of the same sex for one’s sexual activity is to annul the rich symbolism and meaning, not to mention the goals, of the Creator’s sexual design. Homosexual activity is not a complementary union, able to transmit life; and so it thwarts the call to a life of that form of self-giving which the Gospel says is the essence of Christian living. This does not mean that homosexual persons are not often generous and giving of themselves; but when they engage in homosexual activity they confirm within themselves a disordered sexual inclination which is essentially self-indulgent. So, do you also agree with the Vatican that the use of medical contraception by heterosexual married couples is "morally disordered" and "self-indulgent", for the very same stipulated reasons (i.e., the activity "is not a complementary union, able to transmit life")? Because that’s precisely what the Vatican argues, regarding married couples’ use of birth control. You can’t have it both ways, TNMM. Either you’re with the Vatican’s "program" on human sexuality, or you’re not. You can’t pick and choose "a la carte" options — at least according to the way THEY define sexual morality, under the terms of a very flawed and inadequate medieval theology of "natural law".

If TNMM is not Catholic, then he can have it "both ways".  A non-Catholic has every right to agree or disagree with Catholic doctrine as they see fit.  In this case, TNMM is recognizing the fact that the RCC is right on this issue. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As in every moral disorder, homosexual activity prevents one’s own fulfillment and happiness by acting contrary to the creative wisdom of God. The Church, in rejecting erroneous opinions regarding homosexuality, does not limit but rather defends personal freedom and dignity realistically and authentically understood. Classic Vatican Orwellian "doublespeak". Bondage is liberty. Denial of our love is the fulfillment of "the creative wisdom of God". Repression is happiness. Repeat it often enough, and maybe people will start to internalize it. Not to mention what great role models for their own "theology of sexuality" the Catholic clergy turned out to be. Cardinal Ratzinger — the Pope’s ghost-writer, who’s responsible for this "newspeak" noodling — has about as much theological credibility as the captain of the "Hitler Youth" in which he was enrolled during the 1940s. Enough with the Vatican nonsense,

already. Do a cursory google search and you will find that it was virtually impossible for young Germans to avoid membership in the Hitler Youth after Hitler came to power.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Excerpt from CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON THE PASTORAL CARE OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS <sniparoo To chose someone of the same sex for one’s sexual activity is to annul the rich symbolism and meaning, not to mention the goals, of the Creator’s sexual design. Homosexual activity is not a complementary union, able to transmit life; and so it thwarts the call to a life of that form of self-giving which the Gospel says is the essence of Christian living. This does not mean that homosexual persons are not often generous and giving of themselves; but when they engage in homosexual activity they confirm within themselves a disordered sexual inclination which is essentially self-indulgent. So, do you also agree with the Vatican that the use of medical contraception by heterosexual married couples is "morally disordered" and "self-indulgent", for the very same stipulated reasons (i.e., the activity "is not a complementary union, able to transmit life")? Because that’s precisely what the Vatican argues, regarding married couples’ use of birth control. You can’t have it both ways, TNMM. Either you’re with the Vatican’s "program" on human sexuality, or you’re not. You can’t pick and choose "a la carte" options — at least according to the way THEY define sexual morality, under the terms of a very flawed and inadequate medieval theology of "natural law". As in every moral disorder, homosexual activity prevents one’s own fulfillment and happiness by acting contrary to the creative wisdom of God. The Church, in rejecting erroneous opinions regarding homosexuality, does not limit but rather defends personal freedom and dignity realistically and authentically understood. Classic Vatican Orwellian "doublespeak". Bondage is liberty. Denial of our love is the fulfillment of "the creative wisdom of God". Repression is happiness. Repeat it often enough, and maybe people will start to internalize it. Not to mention what great role models for their own "theology of sexuality" the Catholic clergy turned out to be. Cardinal Ratzinger — the Pope’s ghost-writer, who’s responsible for this "newspeak" noodling — has about as much theological credibility as the captain of the "Hitler Youth" in which he was enrolled during the 1940s. Enough with the Vatican nonsense, already. Besides, I don’t see how the Vatican’s opinions can have any relevance to an Episcopalian. Didn’t we rid ourselves of their chains in the 16th century? Speaking for myself, I was attracted to Catholicism when I returned to the faith of my youth. However, I soon learned just how misguided that attraction was. The RCC is interested in maintaining its power first and foremost. One of the methods it achieves this is by controlling the private lives of its victims – primarily their sexual lives. It enables and protects its own perversions while creating an entire class of people it can demonize and scape goat. (And I include under its "perversions" what it has done to the message of Christ). Therefore, I reject it and all its works. I find myself becoming more and more Protestant all the time. Organized religion really appears to be one of humanity’s greatest banes (after government, of course). L

More Protestant WHAT??  We couldn’t get you to the alter with a bulldozer. You’d burst into flames anyway. …Mess up the flowers…

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON THE PASTORAL CARE OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS   <sniparoo To chose someone of the same sex for one’s sexual activity is to annul the rich symbolism and meaning, not to mention the goals, of the Creator’s sexual design. Homosexual activity is not a complementary union, able to transmit life; and so it thwarts the call to a life of that form of self-giving which the Gospel says is the essence of Christian living. This does not mean that homosexual persons are not often generous and giving of themselves; but when they engage in homosexual activity they confirm within themselves a disordered sexual inclination which is essentially self-indulgent. So, do you also agree with the Vatican that the use of medical contraception by heterosexual married couples is "morally disordered" and "self-indulgent", for the very same stipulated reasons (i.e., the activity "is not a complementary union, able to transmit life")?

What I think about one man’s interpretation of scripture may be different from what I think about his take on another. I see the Pope as a pilgram just like me, but I also see him as a wise man of God. And I happen to agree with him on the way he interprets what God considers a family. I have many differences with the catholic church, and I never claimed I didn’t. But when it comes to queers, I agree. I agree with them on other things, too.  Hell, fairy-man.. I don’t agree with everything my own Pastor says! But I do agree with everything the Bible says. Because that’s precisely what the Vatican argues, regarding married couples’ use of birth control. You can’t have it both ways, TNMM.

Who knows what goes on between those sheets? Just them two and God, I guess (the Pope’s usually not invited). Outside of there though, they’re a man and a woman and a couple. And everything’s cool by God in the man-and-woman department, see…. So long as they’re married. "Male and Female created them He" Either you’re with the Vatican’s "program" on human sexuality, or you’re not. You can’t pick and choose "a la carte" options — at least according to the way THEY define sexual morality, under the terms of a very flawed and inadequate medieval theology of "natural law".

Beats the hell out what you use to define it by… Your perverted self-centered twisted unnatural lusts! When normal people have sex, whether children come of it makes little difference one way or the other. The point is, it is at least possible under the correct circumstances. Even if they cannot conceive, it isn’t THEIR CHOICE. But You people purposely CHOOSE to mate within relationships where no breeding is even possible! And you called it what….?  "a very flawed and inadequate medieval theology of "natural law"!? What a bunch of demonically possessed freaks!! It’s what makes the bloomin’ world go ’round! You aren’t a part of it (by your own choice, I will add), so you can’t see it. Even the most simple aspect of creation… a man for a woman, and you just can’t see it. The eye that alters alters all, they say. You are all sick in mind, spirit, body and soul. But God still loves you, I guess. If it were up to me, I’d push the one-way button to hell on all of you, and like yesterday. Deviants gum up the works sooner or later. As in every moral disorder, homosexual activity prevents one’s own fulfillment and happiness by acting contrary to the creative wisdom of God. The Church, in rejecting erroneous opinions regarding homosexuality, does not limit but rather defends personal freedom and dignity realistically and authentically understood. Classic Vatican Orwellian "doublespeak". Bondage is liberty.

It’s the creative wisdom of God. As in "Male and Female He created them". As in "A man should leave his father and mother and cleave to his WIFE".  YOU are the one in bondage. You are a slave to your evil sinful nature and the devil’s got you number big-time. You have a queer nature, and he knows all the weaknesses that come with that. He should. He created the desire. He placed it in your pliable little mind way back when, cause he knew you’d love it!  Satan is alive and well and living in your sick little mind, pansy-azz. Denial of our love is the fulfillment of "the creative wisdom of God".

 "Our love"….?? I’ll just bet the golden-showers crowd thinks the same thing! Or are you into that too? "Do as thou will". I think satan said that. Repression is happiness. Repeat it often enough, and maybe people will start to internalize it.

Homosexuality is evil. It is contrary to the laws of God and nature. It is happiness to you because you’re sleazy and you love to wallow in your perverted lasciviousness like the filthy swine-pig that you are. You are in love with your sin. It rots your soul with self-deception, but you see that as nourishment. It works hard to lure your body into a compromising position where it can then deliver the deathblow of disease, but you see that as freedom.  You deal with a temptation by REMOVING it, dumb-fuck. Fuck repression. Remove it often enough and there won’t be any left to repress much less spread. That’s my policy. Not to mention what great role models for their own "theology of sexuality" the Catholic clergy turned out to be. Cardinal Ratzinger — the Pope’s ghost-writer, who’s responsible for this "newspeak" noodling — has about as much theological credibility as the captain of the "Hitler Youth" in which he was enrolled during the 1940s. Enough with the Vatican nonsense, already.

You might have satan’s courts in your pocket, but you’ll never get the Catholics. And I’d put money’s on that. Evil faggot freaks… try to tell a catholic to do something the pope tells them not to do. They’ve been drilled, baby. Even the ones who aren’t religious later down the line have strong feeling in these directions. Why do you think the devil chose the Episcopalians for homosexual immersion? He never comes to the front door. Too many sets of questioning eyes. And Try to go up against the mass media when it comes to the Catholics. They just LOVE each other. What the Pope says is God’s law on earth, you’d better believe that, for better of for worse.  So you see…? You’d better get busy. That’s the real mountain you’ll need to climb before you’ll be able to do a damned thing with your vile evil sulfurous agenda.  You are evil because you worship evil as truth, and you will continue to pay the price for it. Both now and then in the hereafter.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Excerpt from CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON THE PASTORAL CARE OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS <sniparoo To chose someone of the same sex for one’s sexual activity is to annul the rich symbolism and meaning, not to mention the goals, of the Creator’s sexual design. Homosexual activity is not a complementary union, able to transmit life; and so it thwarts the call to a life of that form of self-giving which the Gospel says is the essence of Christian living. This does not mean that homosexual persons are not often generous and giving of themselves; but when they engage in homosexual activity they confirm within themselves a disordered sexual inclination which is essentially self-indulgent. So, do you also agree with the Vatican that the use of medical contraception by heterosexual married couples is "morally disordered" and "self-indulgent", for the very same stipulated reasons (i.e., the activity "is not a complementary union, able to transmit life")? Because that’s precisely what the Vatican argues, regarding married couples’ use of birth control. You can’t have it both ways, TNMM. Either you’re with the Vatican’s "program" on human sexuality, or you’re not. You can’t pick and choose "a la carte" options — at least according to the way THEY define sexual morality, under the terms of a very flawed and inadequate medieval theology of "natural law". As in every moral disorder, homosexual activity prevents one’s own fulfillment and happiness by acting contrary to the creative wisdom of God. The Church, in rejecting erroneous opinions regarding homosexuality, does not limit but rather defends personal freedom and dignity realistically and authentically understood. Classic Vatican Orwellian "doublespeak". Bondage is liberty. Denial of our love is the fulfillment of "the creative wisdom of God". Repression is happiness. Repeat it often enough, and maybe people will start to internalize it. Not to mention what great role models for their own "theology of sexuality" the Catholic clergy turned out to be. Cardinal Ratzinger — the Pope’s ghost-writer, who’s responsible for this "newspeak" noodling — has about as much theological credibility as the captain of the "Hitler Youth" in which he was enrolled during the 1940s. Enough with the Vatican nonsense, already.

Besides, I don’t see how the Vatican’s opinions can have any relevance to an Episcopalian. Didn’t we rid ourselves of their chains in the 16th century? Speaking for myself, I was attracted to Catholicism when I returned to the faith of my youth. However, I soon learned just how misguided that attraction was. The RCC is interested in maintaining its power first and foremost. One of the methods it achieves this is by controlling the private lives of its victims – primarily their sexual lives. It enables and protects its own perversions while creating an entire class of people it can demonize and scape goat. (And I include under its "perversions" what it has done to the message of Christ). Therefore, I reject it and all its works. I find myself becoming more and more Protestant all the time. Organized religion really appears to be one of humanity’s greatest banes (after government, of course). L

Response:

Excerpt from CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON THE PASTORAL CARE OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS <sniparoo To chose someone of the same sex for one’s sexual activity is to annul the rich symbolism and meaning, not to mention the goals, of the Creator’s sexual design. Homosexual activity is not a complementary union, able to transmit life; and so it thwarts the call to a life of that form of self-giving which the Gospel says is the essence of Christian living. This does not mean that homosexual persons are not often generous and giving of themselves; but when they engage in homosexual activity they confirm within themselves a disordered sexual inclination which is essentially self-indulgent.

So, do you also agree with the Vatican that the use of medical contraception by heterosexual married couples is "morally disordered" and "self-indulgent", for the very same stipulated reasons (i.e., the activity "is not a complementary union, able to transmit life")? Because that’s precisely what the Vatican argues, regarding married couples’ use of birth control. You can’t have it both ways, TNMM. Either you’re with the Vatican’s "program" on human sexuality, or you’re not. You can’t pick and choose "a la carte" options — at least according to the way THEY define sexual morality, under the terms of a very flawed and inadequate medieval theology of "natural law". As in every moral disorder, homosexual activity prevents one’s own fulfillment and happiness by acting contrary to the creative wisdom of God. The Church, in rejecting erroneous opinions regarding homosexuality, does not limit but rather defends personal freedom and dignity realistically and authentically understood.

Classic Vatican Orwellian "doublespeak". Bondage is liberty. Denial of our love is the fulfillment of "the creative wisdom of God". Repression is happiness. Repeat it often enough, and maybe people will start to internalize it. Not to mention what great role models for their own "theology of sexuality" the Catholic clergy turned out to be. Cardinal Ratzinger — the Pope’s ghost-writer, who’s responsible for this "newspeak" noodling — has about as much theological credibility as the captain of the "Hitler Youth" in which he was enrolled during the 1940s. Enough with the Vatican nonsense, already.

Response:

Excerpt from CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON THE PASTORAL CARE OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS ….Providing a basic plan for understanding this entire discussion of homosexuality is the theology of creation we find in Genesis. God, in his infinite wisdom and love, brings into existence all of reality as a reflection of his goodness. He fashions mankind, male and female, in his own image and likeness. Human beings, therefore, are nothing less than the work of God himself; and in the complementarity of the sexes, they are called to reflect the inner unity of the Creator. They do this in a striking way in their cooperation with him in the transmission of life by a mutual donation of the self to the other. In Genesis 3, we find that this truth about persons being an image of God has been obscured by original sin. There inevitably follows a loss of awareness of the covenantal character of the union these persons had with God and with each other. The human body retains its "spousal significance" but this is now clouded by sin. Thus, in Genesis 19:1-11, the deterioration due to sin continues in the story of the men of Sodom. There can be no doubt of the moral judgement made there against homosexual relations. In Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, in the course of describing the conditions necessary for belonging to the Chosen People, the author excludes from the People of God those who behave in a homosexual fashion. Against the background of this exposition of theocratic law, an eschatological perspective is developed by St. Paul when, in I Cor 6:9, he proposes the same doctrine and lists those who behave in a homosexual fashion among those who shall not enter the Kingdom of God. In Romans 1:18-32, still building on the moral traditions of his forebears, but in the new context of the confrontation between Christianity and the pagan society of his day, Paul uses homosexual behaviour as an example of the blindness which has overcome humankind. Instead of the original harmony between Creator and creatures, the acute distortion of idolatry has led to all kinds of moral excess. Paul is at a loss to find a clearer example of this disharmony than homosexual relations. Finally, 1 Tim. 1, in full continuity with the Biblical position, singles out those who spread wrong doctrine and in v. 10 explicitly names as sinners those who engage in homosexual acts. 7. The Church, obedient to the Lord who founded her and gave to her the sacramental life, celebrates the divine plan of the loving and live-giving union of men and women in the sacrament of marriage. It is only in the marital relationship that the use of the sexual faculty can be morally good. A person engaging in homosexual behaviour therefore acts immorally. To chose someone of the same sex for one’s sexual activity is to annul the rich symbolism and meaning, not to mention the goals, of the Creator’s sexual design. Homosexual activity is not a complementary union, able to transmit life; and so it thwarts the call to a life of that form of self-giving which the Gospel says is the essence of Christian living. This does not mean that homosexual persons are not often generous and giving of themselves; but when they engage in homosexual activity they confirm within themselves a disordered sexual inclination which is essentially self-indulgent. As in every moral disorder, homosexual activity prevents one’s own fulfillment and happiness by acting contrary to the creative wisdom of God. The Church, in rejecting erroneous opinions regarding homosexuality, does not limit but rather defends personal freedom and dignity realistically and authentically understood. Source: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_c…

Response:

Question:

Holy Shit! I didn’t know there were any Christians left what with Catholicism taking a nose dive after the publishing of "Father Fucker Fucked Johnny – My Autobiography". Jesus loves you, and He died on the Cross for your sins… He gave you

So Jesus was such a fan of my sins that he died for them? That’s literally what you’re saying. Or are you just babblin’ what they taught you in Sunday school without question? the Greatest Gift of all… Eternal Life.  Do not throw His Gift in His Face.  Repent before it is too late.  Turn away from your path of

*looks at the crappy gift — throw* wickedness and folly, and follow the One Truth Path of Everlasting Life.

Why is there only one true path to the mountain of enlightenment for you Christian soliders? Is it because you march in a straight line? What easy targets. There are demonic forces on that mountain looking down on you. If you have been involved in occultism in any form – even if you have only read about it – renounce any specific occult activity and occultism in general. Repent of your belief in and practice of the occult. It is sin and an abomination to God. Ask forgiveness of God. He will deliver you, save you and lead you into truth. (Romans 10:13, 1 John 1:8,9; John 1:12; Romans 6:23; John 16:13)

It is only a sin to God because those who claim to speak for your God are challenged when they say, "I speak for God, go kill innocent people in his name." You need the baptism with the Holy Spirit to have an overcoming victorious life. The Holy Spirit warns you concerning what is of sin and

I do not want to overcome a victorious life. I want to have a victorious life. what is of God. (John 16:7-11) By faith repent and put your faith in Christ for salvation. (Romans 10:9,10,13) By faith, also ask the Lord to

I put my faith in myself and this keyboard. baptize you (fill you) with the Holy Spirit. (Luke 11:13) It is the Holy Spirit who gives the ability to stay free from the deception and spiritual bondage of occultism.

The Holy Spirit? Wasn’t that the Goddess dismissed from the throne room of your God? Just a memory now. *sigh* Replace occult books, magazines, etc. with the Bible and Christian reading matter. Seek Christian fellowship and practice Christian living. A complete break with occultism is necessary.

How fucking boring. If you have attempted to pray to God, change your life, or cease occult

I often pray to God, he doesn’t listen. You know why? He’s a block of wood hanging in a church somewhere. If you talk to wood it doesn’t talk back. Or does it? Schitzo? or associated activities, but have discovered an inability to do so, you may need further help. God has equipped Christians to minister to you. You do not have to remain in spiritual bondage. Contact your local pastor to help you locate a Christian counselor whose ministry includes deliverance from spiritual bondage.

I want a Christian equipped with a nice set of firm tits. Bondage! Christian Bondage! Kinky, baby, I like it. Go see a priest and he’ll fuck you so silly you’ll forget your sins? "Saturate" yourself with Scriptures. Begin with the gospel according to John. Then read the rest of the New Testament. Acquire a Bible study guide. Get into a Holy Spirit-led fellowship. Learn about Jesus and get serious with God. You will recognize the counterfeit when you know the real God.

Accept the body of Jesus into your heart? No thanks. My knees hurt. _What the Scriptures say about the Occult_

We know what it says. It says you must not take fate into your own hand but rather leave it unto God. Then what are we doing with all this technology? What are you doing on that computer? "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the Lord your God." (Deuteronomy 18:10-13)

Please. The followers of Mollec and his ilk were slaughtered long ago. "So I will come near to you for judgement. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me," says the Lord Almighty." (Malachi 3:5)

Don’t fear the Lord but rather those like George Bush who claims to speak for the Lord. Fear him or those who control him if you can find them. "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious; sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissension, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galations 5:19-21)

In other words anything physical. How very Brittish of you.

Response:

Jesus loves you, and He died on the Cross for your sins… He gave you the Greatest Gift of all… Eternal Life.  Do not throw His Gift in His Face.  Repent before it is too late.  Turn away from your path of wickedness and folly, and follow the One Truth Path of Everlasting Life. He didn’t give me eternal life, that was someone else.

Who? And he’s not a very good lover.  Needs more experience than just Mary…

There are several meaning of love.  By laying down His life to save sinners, He was demonstrating agape love.  There was no selfish desire driving Him to do so.  "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." – Romans 5:8 NKJV

Response:

Jesus loves you, and He died on the Cross for your sins… He gave you the Greatest Gift of all… Eternal Life.  Do not throw His Gift in His Face.  Repent before it is too late.  Turn away from your path of wickedness and folly, and follow the One Truth Path of Everlasting Life. He didn’t give me eternal life, that was someone else. Who?

A greater divinity. And he’s not a very good lover.  Needs more experience than just Mary… There are several meaning of love.  By laying down His life to save sinners, He was demonstrating agape love.  There was no selfish desire driving Him to do so.  "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." – Romans 5:8

Nonsense.  He didn’t lay down anything.  He is eternal, and thus gave up nothing of any value.  Perhaps if he suffered perpetual torment, then you could argue that it was at least more selfless than selfish. Also the fact that God desired worshippers.

Response:

There are several meaning of love.  By laying down His life to save sinners, He was demonstrating agape love.  There was no selfish desire driving Him to do so.  "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." – Romans 5:8 Nonsense.  He didn’t lay down anything.  He is eternal, and thus gave up nothing of any value.  Perhaps if he suffered perpetual torment, then you could argue that it was at least more selfless than selfish.

Everyone who believes in Him has eternal life (Jn 3:16), so we can be eternal in that sense.  Though we die, He will raise when He returns. So what more can those who follow God offer?  He left a perfect throne in heaven to be incarnated into human flesh on earth, suffer as we do, and die that we may live. Also the fact that God desired worshippers.

Is it selfish for the source of life to desire mankind to worship Him?  He is worthy of our worship and I feel priviledged to have a part in it.

Response:

Okay. S’long as you pent sometime in the next millennia. hehehe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll pent at fourth and long. thanks. T9W Ahah! Then you must pent, first! Now, start penting! hehehe "I can’t repent. I haven’t pented yet" ~mortality Jesus loves you, and He died on the Cross for your sins… He gave you the Greatest Gift of all… Eternal Life.  Do not throw His Gift in His Face.  Repent before it is too late.  Turn away from your path of wickedness and folly, and follow the One Truth Path of Everlasting Life. If you have been involved in occultism in any form – even if you have only read about it – renounce any specific occult activity and occultism in general. Repent of your belief in and practice of the occult. It is sin and an abomination to God. Ask forgiveness of God. He will deliver you, save you and lead you into truth. (Romans 10:13, 1 John 1:8,9; John 1:12; Romans 6:23; John 16:13) You need the baptism with the Holy Spirit to have an overcoming victorious life. The Holy Spirit warns you concerning what is of sin and what is of God. (John 16:7-11) By faith repent and put your faith in Christ for salvation. (Romans 10:9,10,13) By faith, also ask the Lord to baptize you (fill you) with the Holy Spirit. (Luke 11:13) It is the Holy Spirit who gives the ability to stay free from the deception and spiritual bondage of occultism. Replace occult books, magazines, etc. with the Bible and Christian reading matter. Seek Christian fellowship and practice Christian living. A complete break with occultism is necessary. If you have attempted to pray to God, change your life, or cease occult or associated activities, but have discovered an inability to do so, you may need further help. God has equipped Christians to minister to you. You do not have to remain in spiritual bondage. Contact your local pastor to help you locate a Christian counselor whose ministry includes deliverance from spiritual bondage. "Saturate" yourself with Scriptures. Begin with the gospel according to John. Then read the rest of the New Testament. Acquire a Bible study guide. Get into a Holy Spirit-led fellowship. Learn about Jesus and get serious with God. You will recognize the counterfeit when you know the real God. _What the Scriptures say about the Occult_ "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the Lord your God." (Deuteronomy 18:10-13) "So I will come near to you for judgement. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me," says the Lord Almighty." (Malachi 3:5) "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious; sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissension, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galations 5:19-21) Gargoyle – -~~~~~ Things are not always what they appear to be, and yet, what a thing appears to be is what it is.

Response:

Jesus loves you, and He died on the Cross for your sins… He gave you So Jesus was such a fan of my sins that he died for them? That’s literally what you’re saying. Or are you just babblin’ what they taught you in Sunday school without question?

Excellent point!  We should question our religious leaders and study for ourselves.  Don’t rely on other humans for salvation, but communicate with the Holy Spirit and read Scripture for yourself. the Greatest Gift of all… Eternal Life.  Do not throw His Gift in His Face.  Repent before it is too late.  Turn away from your path of *looks at the crappy gift — throw*

The time will come when you realize that you are not powerful enough to sustain your own life any longer.  Hopefully you will turn to YHWH before it is too late. wickedness and folly, and follow the One Truth Path of Everlasting Life. Why is there only one true path to the mountain of enlightenment for you Christian soliders? Is it because you march in a straight line? What easy targets. There are demonic forces on that mountain looking down on you.

The gods and goddesses might reward their followers if they choose to and have the power to.  If there is an Almighty God these gods and goddesses wage war, they will be destroyed, and their followers will not reap their rewards, but they’ll reap disaster from their works against the Almighty One. If you have been involved in occultism in any form – even if you have only read about it – renounce any specific occult activity and occultism in general. Repent of your belief in and practice of the occult. It is sin and an abomination to God. Ask forgiveness of God. He will deliver you, save you and lead you into truth. (Romans 10:13, 1 John 1:8,9; John 1:12; Romans 6:23; John 16:13) It is only a sin to God because those who claim to speak for your God are challenged when they say, "I speak for God, go kill innocent people in his name."

Unfortunately many abuse religion. what is of God. (John 16:7-11) By faith repent and put your faith in Christ for salvation. (Romans 10:9,10,13) By faith, also ask the Lord to I put my faith in myself and this keyboard.

…and you will be rewarded for it.  You might get money, buy stuff, stimulate the nervous system in desirable ways, and then parish.  If you wish to live a more meaningful life worship the Creator. If you have attempted to pray to God, change your life, or cease occult I often pray to God, he doesn’t listen. You know why? He’s a block of wood hanging in a church somewhere. If you talk to wood it doesn’t talk back. Or does it? Schitzo?

Whether or not He speaks directly to people through audible voice, He communicates with them.  Though His flock has scattered, the Good Shepherd beckens for them to return. "So I will come near to you for judgement. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me," says the Lord Almighty." (Malachi 3:5) Don’t fear the Lord but rather those like George Bush who claims to speak for the Lord. Fear him or those who control him if you can find them.

The Lord wishes for us to enjoy life.  His laws are guidelines to prevent us from hurting ourselves and others. George Bush usurped the presidency and is sacrificing our freedom for "homeland security".  The USA has enjoyed hundreds of years of religious freedom (not totally but moreso than many nations). Hopefully Bush take away that freedom too.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jesus loves you, and He died on the<snip That was more of a Gnome than a Troll. Now toodle on back to alt.drugs and rec.arts.bodyart . R. <pulling up a chair and starting the microwave popcorn Oh goodie, I got here just as the kickball game is starting! Joe

Alas, The other team seems to have sobered up and forgotten ever posting to ARW. He could have let me kick him a few times before he left… S R.

Response:

I’ll pent at fourth and long. thanks. T9W

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ahah! Then you must pent, first! Now, start penting! hehehe "I can’t repent. I haven’t pented yet" ~mortality Jesus loves you, and He died on the Cross for your sins… He gave you the Greatest Gift of all… Eternal Life.  Do not throw His Gift in His Face.  Repent before it is too late.  Turn away from your path of wickedness and folly, and follow the One Truth Path of Everlasting Life. If you have been involved in occultism in any form – even if you have only read about it – renounce any specific occult activity and occultism in general. Repent of your belief in and practice of the occult. It is sin and an abomination to God. Ask forgiveness of God. He will deliver you, save you and lead you into truth. (Romans 10:13, 1 John 1:8,9; John 1:12; Romans 6:23; John 16:13) You need the baptism with the Holy Spirit to have an overcoming victorious life. The Holy Spirit warns you concerning what is of sin and what is of God. (John 16:7-11) By faith repent and put your faith in Christ for salvation. (Romans 10:9,10,13) By faith, also ask the Lord to baptize you (fill you) with the Holy Spirit. (Luke 11:13) It is the Holy Spirit who gives the ability to stay free from the deception and spiritual bondage of occultism. Replace occult books, magazines, etc. with the Bible and Christian reading matter. Seek Christian fellowship and practice Christian living. A complete break with occultism is necessary. If you have attempted to pray to God, change your life, or cease occult or associated activities, but have discovered an inability to do so, you may need further help. God has equipped Christians to minister to you. You do not have to remain in spiritual bondage. Contact your local pastor to help you locate a Christian counselor whose ministry includes deliverance from spiritual bondage. "Saturate" yourself with Scriptures. Begin with the gospel according to John. Then read the rest of the New Testament. Acquire a Bible study guide. Get into a Holy Spirit-led fellowship. Learn about Jesus and get serious with God. You will recognize the counterfeit when you know the real God. _What the Scriptures say about the Occult_ "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the Lord your God." (Deuteronomy 18:10-13) "So I will come near to you for judgement. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me," says the Lord Almighty." (Malachi 3:5) "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious; sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissension, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galations 5:19-21) Gargoyle – -~~~~~ Things are not always what they appear to be, and yet, what a thing

appears to be is what it is. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Jesus loves you, and He died on the Cross for your sins… He gave you the Greatest Gift of all… Eternal Life.  Do not throw His Gift in His Face.  Repent before it is too late.  Turn away from your path of wickedness and folly, and follow the One Truth Path of Everlasting Life.

He didn’t give me eternal life, that was someone else. And he’s not a very good lover.  Needs more experience than just Mary…

Response:

Jesus loves you,

This I know ’cause my dick he did blow… and He died on the Cross for your sins… He gave you the Greatest Gift of all…

Yep,,,, he died. Good riddance, too! hehehe Eternal Life.  Do not throw His Gift in His Face.  Repent before it is too late.  Turn away from your path of wickedness and folly, and follow the One Truth Path of Everlasting Life.

I’m not into molesting little boys. I’ll pass on your path, thank you. If you have been involved in occultism in any form – even if you have only read about it – renounce any specific occult activity and occultism in general. Repent of your belief in and practice of the occult. It is sin and an abomination to God.

God? Oh! You mean the Original Thief and Liar! The enslaver of Human Beings. Ask forgiveness of God. He will deliver you, save you and lead you into truth. (Romans 10:13, 1 John 1:8,9; John 1:12; Romans 6:23; John 16:13)

Goes to show you what the Romans knew! Nothing! As for John, well, he was nothing but a male whore, anyway. He took it up the ass almost as much as jebus did. And jebus did the taking, too. You need the baptism with the Holy Spirit

EWWW! Why would I want jebus’ cum on my head? You’re really sick! Oh, the hell with your fucking crap. I deleted the rest of it. hehehe Gargoyle – -~~~~~ Things are not always what they appear to be, and yet, what a thing appears to be is what it is.

Response:

Ahah! Then you must pent, first! Now, start penting! hehehe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "I can’t repent. I haven’t pented yet" ~mortality Jesus loves you, and He died on the Cross for your sins… He gave you the Greatest Gift of all… Eternal Life.  Do not throw His Gift in His Face.  Repent before it is too late.  Turn away from your path of wickedness and folly, and follow the One Truth Path of Everlasting Life. If you have been involved in occultism in any form – even if you have only read about it – renounce any specific occult activity and occultism in general. Repent of your belief in and practice of the occult. It is sin and an abomination to God. Ask forgiveness of God. He will deliver you, save you and lead you into truth. (Romans 10:13, 1 John 1:8,9; John 1:12; Romans 6:23; John 16:13) You need the baptism with the Holy Spirit to have an overcoming victorious life. The Holy Spirit warns you concerning what is of sin and what is of God. (John 16:7-11) By faith repent and put your faith in Christ for salvation. (Romans 10:9,10,13) By faith, also ask the Lord to baptize you (fill you) with the Holy Spirit. (Luke 11:13) It is the Holy Spirit who gives the ability to stay free from the deception and spiritual bondage of occultism. Replace occult books, magazines, etc. with the Bible and Christian reading matter. Seek Christian fellowship and practice Christian living. A complete break with occultism is necessary. If you have attempted to pray to God, change your life, or cease occult or associated activities, but have discovered an inability to do so, you may need further help. God has equipped Christians to minister to you. You do not have to remain in spiritual bondage. Contact your local pastor to help you locate a Christian counselor whose ministry includes deliverance from spiritual bondage. "Saturate" yourself with Scriptures. Begin with the gospel according to John. Then read the rest of the New Testament. Acquire a Bible study guide. Get into a Holy Spirit-led fellowship. Learn about Jesus and get serious with God. You will recognize the counterfeit when you know the real God. _What the Scriptures say about the Occult_ "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the Lord your God." (Deuteronomy 18:10-13) "So I will come near to you for judgement. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me," says the Lord Almighty." (Malachi 3:5) "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious; sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissension, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galations 5:19-21)

Gargoyle – -~~~~~ Things are not always what they appear to be, and yet, what a thing appears to be is what it is.

Response:

Try an "Advanced Google Search" on the author. If you are feeding the troll, it is helpful to know what breed it is. R. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Merry Meet Xine, Tried that. To much violence and predujice in christianity. Perhaps if you would like I can show you the true inner peace obtained in the turning back to nature and the god and goddess. Knowledge is the key my friend and if you are a true christian perhaps you would do well following their teachings and not pass judgement on others. Tollerance is a big thing. worship the same gods. That`s what I choose to think. There is so much more peace within these thoughts. Time and culture distorts all history. I wish you all the best my friend and hope you find peace in your beliefs. Jesus loves you, and He died on the Cross for your sins… He gave you the Greatest Gift of all… Eternal Life.  Do not throw His Gift in His Face.  Repent before it is too late.  Turn away from your path of wickedness and folly, and follow the One Truth Path of Everlasting Life. If you have been involved in occultism in any form – even if you have only read about it – renounce any specific occult activity and occultism in general. Repent of your belief in and practice of the occult. It is sin and an abomination to God. Ask forgiveness of God. He will deliver you, save you and lead you into truth. (Romans 10:13, 1 John 1:8,9; John 1:12; Romans 6:23; John 16:13) You need the baptism with the Holy Spirit to have an overcoming victorious life. The Holy Spirit warns you concerning what is of sin and what is of God. (John 16:7-11) By faith repent and put your faith in Christ for salvation. (Romans 10:9,10,13) By faith, also ask the Lord to baptize you (fill you) with the Holy Spirit. (Luke 11:13) It is the Holy Spirit who gives the ability to stay free from the deception and spiritual bondage of occultism. Replace occult books, magazines, etc. with the Bible and Christian reading matter. Seek Christian fellowship and practice Christian living. A complete break with occultism is necessary. If you have attempted to pray to God, change your life, or cease occult or associated activities, but have discovered an inability to do so, you may need further help. God has equipped Christians to minister to you. You do not have to remain in spiritual bondage. Contact your local pastor to help you locate a Christian counselor whose ministry includes deliverance from spiritual bondage. "Saturate" yourself with Scriptures. Begin with the gospel according to John. Then read the rest of the New Testament. Acquire a Bible study guide. Get into a Holy Spirit-led fellowship. Learn about Jesus and get serious with God. You will recognize the counterfeit when you know the real God. _What the Scriptures say about the Occult_ "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the Lord your God." (Deuteronomy 18:10-13) "So I will come near to you for judgement. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me," says the Lord Almighty." (Malachi 3:5) "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious; sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissension, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galations 5:19-21)

Response:

Jesus loves you, and He died on the<snip That was more of a Gnome than a Troll. Now toodle on back to alt.drugs and rec.arts.bodyart . R.

<pulling up a chair and starting the microwave popcorn Oh goodie, I got here just as the kickball game is starting! Joe

Response:

"I can’t repent. I haven’t pented yet" ~mortality

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jesus loves you, and He died on the Cross for your sins… He gave you the Greatest Gift of all… Eternal Life.  Do not throw His Gift in His Face.  Repent before it is too late.  Turn away from your path of wickedness and folly, and follow the One Truth Path of Everlasting Life. If you have been involved in occultism in any form – even if you have only read about it – renounce any specific occult activity and occultism in general. Repent of your belief in and practice of the occult. It is sin and an abomination to God. Ask forgiveness of God. He will deliver you, save you and lead you into truth. (Romans 10:13, 1 John 1:8,9; John 1:12; Romans 6:23; John 16:13) You need the baptism with the Holy Spirit to have an overcoming victorious life. The Holy Spirit warns you concerning what is of sin and what is of God. (John 16:7-11) By faith repent and put your faith in Christ for salvation. (Romans 10:9,10,13) By faith, also ask the Lord to baptize you (fill you) with the Holy Spirit. (Luke 11:13) It is the Holy Spirit who gives the ability to stay free from the deception and spiritual bondage of occultism. Replace occult books, magazines, etc. with the Bible and Christian reading matter. Seek Christian fellowship and practice Christian living. A complete break with occultism is necessary. If you have attempted to pray to God, change your life, or cease occult or associated activities, but have discovered an inability to do so, you may need further help. God has equipped Christians to minister to you. You do not have to remain in spiritual bondage. Contact your local pastor to help you locate a Christian counselor whose ministry includes deliverance from spiritual bondage. "Saturate" yourself with Scriptures. Begin with the gospel according to John. Then read the rest of the New Testament. Acquire a Bible study guide. Get into a Holy Spirit-led fellowship. Learn about Jesus and get serious with God. You will recognize the counterfeit when you know the real God. _What the Scriptures say about the Occult_ "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the Lord your God." (Deuteronomy 18:10-13) "So I will come near to you for judgement. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me," says the Lord Almighty." (Malachi 3:5) "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious; sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissension, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galations 5:19-21)

Response:

Merry Meet Xine, Tried that. To much violence and predujice in christianity. Perhaps if you would like I can show you the true inner peace obtained in the turning back to nature and the god and goddess. Knowledge is the key my friend and if you are a true christian perhaps you would do well following their teachings and not pass judgement on others. Tollerance is a big thing. worship the same gods. That`s what I choose to think. There is so much more peace within these thoughts. Time and culture distorts all history. I wish you all the best my friend and hope you find peace in your beliefs.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jesus loves you, and He died on the Cross for your sins… He gave you the Greatest Gift of all… Eternal Life.  Do not throw His Gift in His Face.  Repent before it is too late.  Turn away from your path of wickedness and folly, and follow the One Truth Path of Everlasting Life. If you have been involved in occultism in any form – even if you have only read about it – renounce any specific occult activity and occultism in general. Repent of your belief in and practice of the occult. It is sin and an abomination to God. Ask forgiveness of God. He will deliver you, save you and lead you into truth. (Romans 10:13, 1 John 1:8,9; John 1:12; Romans 6:23; John 16:13) You need the baptism with the Holy Spirit to have an overcoming victorious life. The Holy Spirit warns you concerning what is of sin and what is of God. (John 16:7-11) By faith repent and put your faith in Christ for salvation. (Romans 10:9,10,13) By faith, also ask the Lord to baptize you (fill you) with the Holy Spirit. (Luke 11:13) It is the Holy Spirit who gives the ability to stay free from the deception and spiritual bondage of occultism. Replace occult books, magazines, etc. with the Bible and Christian reading matter. Seek Christian fellowship and practice Christian living. A complete break with occultism is necessary. If you have attempted to pray to God, change your life, or cease occult or associated activities, but have discovered an inability to do so, you may need further help. God has equipped Christians to minister to you. You do not have to remain in spiritual bondage. Contact your local pastor to help you locate a Christian counselor whose ministry includes deliverance from spiritual bondage. "Saturate" yourself with Scriptures. Begin with the gospel according to John. Then read the rest of the New Testament. Acquire a Bible study guide. Get into a Holy Spirit-led fellowship. Learn about Jesus and get serious with God. You will recognize the counterfeit when you know the real God. _What the Scriptures say about the Occult_ "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the Lord your God." (Deuteronomy 18:10-13) "So I will come near to you for judgement. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me," says the Lord Almighty." (Malachi 3:5) "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious; sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissension, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galations 5:19-21)

Response:

Jesus loves you, and He died on the Cross for your sins… He gave you the Greatest Gift of all… Eternal Life.  Do not throw His Gift in His Face.  Repent before it is too late.  Turn away from your path of wickedness and folly, and follow the One Truth Path of Everlasting Life. If you have been involved in occultism in any form – even if you have only read about it – renounce any specific occult activity and occultism in general. Repent of your belief in and practice of the occult. It is sin and an abomination to God. Ask forgiveness of God. He will deliver you, save you and lead you into truth. (Romans 10:13, 1 John 1:8,9; John 1:12; Romans 6:23; John 16:13) You need the baptism with the Holy Spirit to have an overcoming victorious life. The Holy Spirit warns you concerning what is of sin and what is of God. (John 16:7-11) By faith repent and put your faith in Christ for salvation. (Romans 10:9,10,13) By faith, also ask the Lord to baptize you (fill you) with the Holy Spirit. (Luke 11:13) It is the Holy Spirit who gives the ability to stay free from the deception and spiritual bondage of occultism. Replace occult books, magazines, etc. with the Bible and Christian reading matter. Seek Christian fellowship and practice Christian living. A complete break with occultism is necessary. If you have attempted to pray to God, change your life, or cease occult or associated activities, but have discovered an inability to do so, you may need further help. God has equipped Christians to minister to you. You do not have to remain in spiritual bondage. Contact your local pastor to help you locate a Christian counselor whose ministry includes deliverance from spiritual bondage. "Saturate" yourself with Scriptures. Begin with the gospel according to John. Then read the rest of the New Testament. Acquire a Bible study guide. Get into a Holy Spirit-led fellowship. Learn about Jesus and get serious with God. You will recognize the counterfeit when you know the real God. _What the Scriptures say about the Occult_ "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the Lord your God." (Deuteronomy 18:10-13) "So I will come near to you for judgement. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me," says the Lord Almighty." (Malachi 3:5) "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious; sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissension, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galations 5:19-21)

Response:

Jesus loves you, and He died on the<snip

That was more of a Gnome than a Troll. Now toodle on back to alt.drugs and rec.arts.bodyart . R.

Response:

Question:

All humanity is capable of discrimination.

Let’s hope so. Discrimination is just another world for choice. Choice is another word for liberty. Liberty is a world you rarely hear anymore. I guess it makes too many people uncomfortable. If we talked about it we might start realizing how little of it we have left. rAD

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anti-Semitism simply means discrimination or hostility to Jews. Its a term for a specific type of discrimination and hostility. In modern Western nations discrimination is an illegal act. Minorities were generally the victims of discrimination and hostility. Over the last 2000 years, Jews in the Diaspora have been minorities. BUT and this is important, Jews have chosen to be minorities. * In the very beginning of the book of judges is its sobering calculus of apostasy and punishment. If the people of Israel remain apart from the indigenous population they will be rewarded. Should they attempt to assimilate divine punishment will be swift and severe.  * " The Bible Unearthed" by Finkelstein and Silberman.  Pg.100 Para.2 Judges 2:11-19 The conclusion is that Judaism is the primary cause for discrimination and hostility against Jews. This however does not condone discrimination. But it is an explanation. All humanity is capable of discrimination.

When your religion refers to non-believers with a racial term, it’s only fair that others discriminate against you. Great post. Libertarian National Socialist Green Party @ www.nazi.org

Response:

-This however does not condone discrimination. But it is an explanation. -All humanity is capable of discrimination. It certainly sounds like you are tying to justify discrimination!!! DINGDINGDINGDING! Got it in one.

  Discrimination is good. It used to be a compliment to be called a discriminating person. http://stormfront.org      http://www.kukluxklan.org www.spearhead-uk.com       http://www.natvan.com

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anti-Semitism simply means discrimination or hostility to Jews. Its a term for a specific type of discrimination and hostility. In modern Western nations discrimination is an illegal act. Minorities were generally the victims of discrimination and hostility. Over the last 2000 years, Jews in the Diaspora have been minorities. BUT and this is important, Jews have chosen to be minorities. * In the very beginning of the book of judges is its sobering calculus of apostasy and punishment. If the people of Israel remain apart from the indigenous population they will be rewarded. Should they attempt to assimilate divine punishment will be swift and severe.  * " The Bible Unearthed" by Finkelstein and Silberman.  Pg.100 Para.2 Judges 2:11-19 The conclusion is that Judaism is the primary cause for discrimination and hostility against Jews. This however does not condone discrimination. But it is an explanation. All humanity is capable of discrimination. Racism, or for that matter any kind of bigotry, is little more than evidence of criminal intent.  If someone wants to steal, they excuse it on the grounds that the victim of the theft does not deserve what he has for various reasons.  He is Jewish, black, Muslim, a Huguenot, and therefore does not deserve it.  Since he does not deserve it, it belongs to someone else.  If what the victim possesses does not belong to him, then the ‘true’ owner has the right, granted by bigotry, to take away from the undeserving, to repossess, in a word what never belonged to him in the first place. That Jews chose to be a minority is meaningless.  Given the free choice of religions under the condition I had to choose one or the other on an intellectual basis but believing in neither was not an option given the choice of Islam, Catholicism or Judaism, I would choose Judaism as the best of the three.  I think they made a good choice given bad options. A healthy state is always full of minorities.  As James Madison noted in Federalist #10, a healthy state _Protects_ its minorities.  A state like Syria, Nazi Germany, or for that matter Mississippi, that does not protect its minorities is notable mostly for its poverty and corruption.   Bigotry keeps everyone poor because it excuses and gives the imprimatur to the criminality of the ruling class.

Which goes a long way to showing why the majority of Arabs and dirt poor, while at the same time being as a group, the richest on earth. Mickey

Response:

-This however does not condone discrimination. But it is an explanation. -All humanity is capable of discrimination. It certainly sounds like you are tying to justify discrimination!!!

DINGDINGDINGDING! Got it in one. Susan

Response:

-Anti-Semitism simply means discrimination or hostility to Jews. – -Its a term for a specific type of discrimination and hostility. – -In modern Western nations discrimination is an illegal act. – -Minorities were generally the victims of discrimination and hostility. – -Over the last 2000 years, Jews in the Diaspora have been minorities. – -BUT and this is important, Jews have chosen to be minorities. – -* In the very beginning of the book of judges is its sobering calculus of -apostasy and punishment. – -If the people of Israel remain apart from the indigenous population they -will be rewarded. -Should they attempt to assimilate divine punishment will be swift and -severe. – – * " The Bible Unearthed" by Finkelstein and Silberman.  Pg.100 Para.2 -Judges 2:11-19 Christians are told in the New Testament of the Bible not to marry unbelievers….and to be in the world, and not of it..in others words "Don’t assimilate". – -The conclusion is that Judaism is the primary cause for discrimination and -hostility against Jews. And if anyone who is Christian living in a non-Christian country is discriminated against, you would say Christianity is the cause of hostility against them? – -This however does not condone discrimination. But it is an explanation. -All humanity is capable of discrimination. It certainly sounds like you are tying to justify discrimination!!! Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I’m Gay http://www.geocities.com/ninure The world’s second most subversive document http://www.geocities.com/ninure/declaration.html My Online Diary http://www.ninure.deardiary.net – Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches http://www.ufmcc.com To send e-mail, remove nohate from address

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anti-Semitism simply means discrimination or hostility to Jews. Its a term for a specific type of discrimination and hostility. In modern Western nations discrimination is an illegal act. Minorities were generally the victims of discrimination and hostility. Over the last 2000 years, Jews in the Diaspora have been minorities. BUT and this is important, Jews have chosen to be minorities. * In the very beginning of the book of judges is its sobering calculus of apostasy and punishment. If the people of Israel remain apart from the indigenous population they will be rewarded. Should they attempt to assimilate divine punishment will be swift and severe.  * " The Bible Unearthed" by Finkelstein and Silberman.  Pg.100 Para.2 Judges 2:11-19 The conclusion is that Judaism is the primary cause for discrimination and hostility against Jews. This however does not condone discrimination. But it is an explanation. All humanity is capable of discrimination.

Racism, or for that matter any kind of bigotry, is little more than evidence of criminal intent.  If someone wants to steal, they excuse it on the grounds that the victim of the theft does not deserve what he has for various reasons.  He is Jewish, black, Muslim, a Huguenot, and therefore does not deserve it.  Since he does not deserve it, it belongs to someone else.  If what the victim possesses does not belong to him, then the ‘true’ owner has the right, granted by bigotry, to take away from the undeserving, to repossess, in a word what never belonged to him in the first place. That Jews chose to be a minority is meaningless.  Given the free choice of religions under the condition I had to choose one or the other on an intellectual basis but believing in neither was not an option given the choice of Islam, Catholicism or Judaism, I would choose Judaism as the best of the three.  I think they made a good choice given bad options. A healthy state is always full of minorities.  As James Madison noted in Federalist #10, a healthy state _Protects_ its minorities.  A state like Syria, Nazi Germany, or for that matter Mississippi, that does not protect its minorities is notable mostly for its poverty and corruption.   Bigotry keeps everyone poor because it excuses and gives the imprimatur to the criminality of the ruling class.

Response:

Anti-Semitism simply means discrimination or hostility to Jews. Its a term for a specific type of discrimination and hostility. In modern Western nations discrimination is an illegal act. Minorities were generally the victims of discrimination and hostility. Over the last 2000 years, Jews in the Diaspora have been minorities. BUT and this is important, Jews have chosen to be minorities. * In the very beginning of the book of judges is its sobering calculus of apostasy and punishment. If the people of Israel remain apart from the indigenous population they will be rewarded. Should they attempt to assimilate divine punishment will be swift and severe.  * " The Bible Unearthed" by Finkelstein and Silberman.  Pg.100 Para.2 Judges 2:11-19 The conclusion is that Judaism is the primary cause for discrimination and hostility against Jews. This however does not condone discrimination. But it is an explanation. All humanity is capable of discrimination.

Response:

Question:

You failed to understand the point of my post.  The Adventist use of the "not one jot or tittle shall be removed" quote to support the continuation of the Sabbath is not valid.  When Jesus used the word Law, He meant ALL of the law, not just the Ten Commandments.

It is you who don’t understand me.  Since you interpret it that way, YOU are bound to keep all of them and not just the Ten Commandments. We are both agreeing that Christ was referring to the Law and the Prophets.  I say that some of those issues are voided by even just common sense.  You say it is not.  You need to keep them all on command of the Master by your own words. They way He used the word Law throughout the rest of Matthew makes this clear.  Therefore, anyone who uses this passage to support any continued practice of the old covenant is obligated to obey all of the practices of the old covenant.

Jesus didn’t say Old Covenant.  According to you, He said that till heaven and earth pass, all those old laws have to be kept.  You are bound therefore to keep them, and you can’t say anything about old covenant/new covenant since Christ said till heaven and earth pass. The blood sacrifices for sins would be exempted of course, because we all believe that His sacrifice  covers them all.  If you use this quote to support the Sabbath, then you should also have tassels on the corners of your garments, or you are being a hypocrite.

I explained myself.  You claim Christ is talking about all the specific commandments of the old testament.  That must include refuge cities, what to do with slaves, etc.  We don’t believe that.  You therefore need to be bound to keep all of those things, because, according to you, THE MASTER said so!  No time for quibbling about old covenant and new covenant.  CHRIST has spoken according to you! My point is that what Jesus was saying is that with His death, ALL was fulfilled.  Jesus in His prefect life and atoning death fulfilled all of the Law for us. We are now under a new covenant and all of the instructions for Christian living can be found between Matt. 1;1 and Rev 22:21. In Christ, Frank

Jesus said till heaven and earth pass not a jot or tittle shall pass till all be fulfilled.  He then said, whosoever THEREFORE would break the least of these commandments and TEACH MEN SO is condemned.  So don’t tell me they are fulfilled and we now don’t have to keep them. You are contradicting the MASTER.

Response:

– Joseph E. Meehan 26 + 6 = 1  It’s Irish Math

They had laws for criminal justice. We cannot deal with such like the eye for an eye bit, because we have systems of justice outside of the church.

    I sure hope you did not stop your reading of the Bible after "..eye for an eye"  After all the next line, the one so many Bible only, personal interpreters of the Bible, like to ignore; changes the whole meaning.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Joseph E. Meehan 26 + 6 = 1  It’s Irish Math They had laws for criminal justice. We cannot deal with such like the eye for an eye bit, because we have systems of justice outside of the church.     I sure hope you did not stop your reading of the Bible after "..eye for an eye"  After all the next line, the one so many Bible only, personal interpreters of the Bible, like to ignore; changes the whole meaning.

And so, as Seeber told us happily, Rome persecuted and murdered them because she read after the eye for an eye line? Ted McMillan

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Snipped*** Since no day for Christian worship was DECREED by God anywhere in the New Testament, apparently the apostles figured we could decide for ourselves, and Sunday worship began right there in the 1st century with the Apostles. Well, Peter and the 11 quickly realized that Exodus 31:17 says that only Jews are required to keep Sabbath, so they began to worship on Sunday to commemorate the Resurrection.

First starting out to fail to address the crucial points that I gave. Gave no scripture where Peter told us that only Jews kept the Sabbath and therefore they keep Sunday.  IQ is failing again, and he just has to complain that he is a Vatican despot. So we actually see the first Sunday morning Christian worsihp servcice in Acts 2. The Holy Spirit came to the Apostles on Pentecost Sunday. Acts 20 says they worshipped on Sunday, too.

Why didn’t this person claiming a high IQ and relationship with Christ address my points?  DOES HAVING A RELIGIOUS SERVICE ON ANY PARTICULAR DAY MAKE THAT DAY A HOLY DAY FOREVER?  IF IT DOES, DOES THAT REVERSE ANOTHER DAY THAT HAS BEEN DESIGNATED AS HOLY.  Two cataclysmic mountains have to be overcome to push the lie.  This is always childs-play for Vatican despots! In Matthew 5:17-19, Christ made it clear enough for all to hear except the despots of Satan.  He said that till heaven and earth pass, not one stroking of the T or dotting of the I will change till all be fulfilled. NONSENSE!

Blasphemer!  Show us how your IQ is greater than Christ’s and I will even remind you that you started with a repetition and not with addressing the key points.  16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.’ "   Then check the prophecies to see when the prophecies of Christ’s second coming will be fulfilled and heaven and earth will pass away. Not relevant. See Exodus 31:16 for who Sabbath was intended for: (the Jews).

DESPOT!  Read Romans 20.  We are Israelites.  We don’t just receive the benefits of salvation in their commonwealth.  We also receive their responsibilities.  Christ told His Disciples to preach the Gospel and to teach the Gentiles all that He has commanded them in Matthew 28. Well Teddy boy, if your application is corrrect, then you had better be obeying all of the Law, not just the Ten Commandments. Right on.

Despot Vatican boys!  We are biblical Christians.  If there are commands, and then follows silence, THE COMMAND REMAINS UNTIL THERE IS A FURTHER COMMAND ANNULLING IT!  We are biblical Christians.  You all work from Catholic principle. Here is food for your IQ in a VERY SIMPLE QUESTION: WHERE IS THE COMMAND THAT TELLS US YOUR STARTLING CLAIMS THAT CHRISTIANS ARE TO WORSHIP THE LORD ON SUNDAY TO COMMEMORATE HIS RESSURECTION.  WHERE IS THE COMMAND FOR THIS?  Too hard for your IQ?   The exact quote is "not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished." When Jesus said Law, He meant Law not just the Ten Commandments.  Therefore, you had better follow all of the laws, precepts, instructions and commands in the books of Moses (excepting       sacrifices for sins) or else you are a hypocrite, picking and choosing which laws you will obey and which you will ignore. Yep. (keeping the law can’t be done)

So you mean Christ says to keep ALL of them and YOU don’t?  You mean Christ says to keep them, but your higher IQ tells you it can’t be done? Just to help you better understand the words of Jesus, I will quote every verse in Matthew where the word Law is used. Hah hah hah hah hah hah hah hah hah! You have no clue. The New Testament is the Covenant of Grace, NOT the covenant of law.

I didn’t write that quote above, despot Weatherly.  Still, how does that covenant business overshadow what you claim Christ said and meant, but you will not do or follow? Matt 5:17 Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. They way Jesus used the words "the Law and the Prophets it is most probable that He meant the entire Old Testament.  16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.’ "

Romans 20 tells us that we as Gentiles now have all the benefits of the Jews, including salvation, the covenants, THE GIVING OF THE LAW and the promises. Matt 5:18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. In the previous sentance Jesus used the word "Law" in a way that implies He meant all of the Law.  There is no reason to think that He resrticted the meaning in this verse to only the Ten Commandments.  16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.’ "

Romans 20 tells us that we as Gentiles now have all the benefits of the Jews, including salvation, the covenants, THE GIVING OF THE LAW and the promises. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Matt 5:25 Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Obviously in this verse Jesus was refering to the civil law of the land, not the Ten Commandments. Matt 7:12 In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets. There is that pesky "the Law and the Prophets" quote again meaning that Jesus was once again using the word "Law " to mean the the writings of Moses, not just the Ten Commandments Matt 11:13 For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. Once again, the Law and the Prophets which has to imply the whole Law, not just the Ten Commandments. Matt 12:5 Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are         ? I looked and looked, but no matter how hard I looked, I just couldn’t find this statement  in the Ten Commandments.  Jesus must have been using "Law" to mean the whole Law again It doesn’t matter.

Because Weatherly has a Eucharist cookie to order around Christ!  16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.’ "

Romans 20 tells us that we as Gentiles now have all the benefits of the Jews, including salvation, the covenants, THE GIVING OF THE LAW and the promises. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Matt 22:36 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" This time it isn’t Jesus speaking, but a lawyer.  One could make a case that the lawyer was refering to the Ten Commandments.  If so, then what Jesus said is really interesting.  Jesus quoted two commandments, neither one being a part of the Ten Commandments, as being the greatest commandments. He then concluded His statement with the following Matt 22:40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." Isn’t that annoying, Jesus just plain refuses to use the word "Law" in a way that would point to the Ten Commandments and validate your statement.  Correct. And last, but not least: Matt 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and    min, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. Yes. Jesus uses "law" again, but once again it is obvious that He does not mean the Ten Commandments. Well Teddy boy, it has been shown to any who are unbiased and reasonable, that your application of Matt 5 to support the continuation of Sabbath observance is totally without merit.  It is in fact a misapplication of scripture to use Matt 5 to support Sabbath observance.  If one must misapply scripture to support a doctrine, then perhaps the doctrine needs re-examination.  16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from

Romans 20 tells us that we as Gentiles now have all the benefits of the Jews, including salvation, the covenants, THE GIVING OF THE LAW and the promises. Ted McMillan

Response:

The Catholics, neither the Adventists will stay us Christians from worshipping on Sunday as did the Apostles (Acts 2, Acts 20).

That’s why there was so much commotion with the new Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians over circumcision involving only a privily part of males, while a day of worship involving male, female, oxes and even    es gave no historical commotion.  Obviously Weather should be more considered a despot than the so-called facts he is telling us we must believe. Since no day for Christian worship was DECREED by God anywhere in the New Testament, apparently the apostles figured we could decide for ourselves, and Sunday worship began right there in the 1st century with the Apostles.

In Matthew 5:17-19, Christ made it clear enough for all to hear except the despots of Satan.  He said that till heaven and earth pass, not one stroking of the T or dotting of the I will change till all be fulfilled.  Then check the prophecies to see when the prophecies of Christ’s second coming will be fulfilled and heaven and earth will pass away. The Sabbath at that time was a no-brainer for Pharisees.  Need not repeat anything already clearly known and even over-emphasized. Rome may have decreed. But we aren’t Romans.

If Adventists decreed you all would have said we were arrogant and asked how we could do that.  Adventist refuse to unite with the other churches, you tell us that we think ourselves superior to our FELLOW brothers and sisters in Christ and we are arrogant.  Rome tells us SHE WILL LEAD this uniting conglomeration, so naturally now you become quiet. Peter and Paul worshipped on Sunday, so I follow that example.

Proof, proof, the Vatican despot needs some proof.  If Christ’s red letters tell us till heaven and earth pass not a jot or tittle shall pass from the law, we Christians more follow the red letters than any misconception accomplished by Vatican despots.  We are not Peterians and we are not Paulians.  We are Christians and we will give Christ far more the benefit of the doubt.  Christ is not to blame for the confusion, else He would have plainly said that the Sabbath command is annulled.  The Vatican despots are to blame. Sabbath was never intended for Christians anyway. John Weatherly

In Matthew 24, when Christ talks about the end of the world, he tells CHRISTIANS to pray that their flight be not in the Winter, nor upon the Sabbath day.  Later on he teaches them to preach to all nations ALL that He had commanded them. Ted McMillan

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Snipped*** Since no day for Christian worship was DECREED by God anywhere in the New Testament, apparently the apostles figured we could decide for ourselves, and Sunday worship began right there in the 1st century with the Apostles. In Matthew 5:17-19, Christ made it clear enough for all to hear except the despots of Satan.  He said that till heaven and earth pass, not one stroking of the T or dotting of the I will change till all be fulfilled.  Then check the prophecies to see when the prophecies of Christ’s second coming will be fulfilled and heaven and earth will pass away. Well Teddy boy, if your application is corrrect, then you had better be obeying all of the Law, not just the Ten Commandments.  The exact quote is "not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished." When Jesus said Law, He meant Law not just the Ten Commandments.  Therefore, you had better follow all of the laws, precepts, instructions and commands in the books of Moses (excepting       sacrifices for sins) or else you are a hypocrite, picking and choosing which laws you will obey and which you will ignore.

Then you are in trouble too Frank Furter!  You quoted that Christ said everything, so you better be keeping everything.  You strayed off the point. But, as usual your arguments are redundant.  We are not to keep many of the ceremonial laws of Moses.  Most of them were based upon an independent society.  They had laws dealing with      s and    es.  We obviously don’t deal with that.  They had laws for criminal justice. We cannot deal with such like the eye for an eye bit, because we have systems of justice outside of the church.  All this is just a repetition.  But that’s why Christ used Matthew 5 to prepare His people for dispersion and a different from of living based upon their circumstances. Just to help you better understand the words of Jesus, I will quote every verse in Matthew where the word Law is used. Matt 5:17 Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. They way Jesus used the words "the Law and the Prophets it is most probable that He meant the entire Old Testament.

I agree.  Thing is, the Pharisees didn’t accuse Him of disobeying all the Old Testament.  Almost every problem they had with Him had to do with the Seventh-day Sabbath and Christ’s claim to be the Son of God. But if Christ said to obey the Old Testament, I would obey it.  But I don’t claim that: you do.  Then you are supposed to be bound to obey it since the MASTER said so according to you.  How are you going to skirt around that?  You go to Paul and Peter, not being Christians. You misinterpret their words and hold precedence over the red letters of Christ’s own utterances! Matt 5:18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. In the previous sentance Jesus used the word "Law" in a way that implies He meant all of the Law.  There is no reason to think that He resrticted the meaning in this verse to only the Ten Commandments.

I agree.  That’s why I can still quote the Psalms for living.  I can still quote Proverbs, etc.  What do the laws of the Ancient Temple have to do with me?  But, fact is, He spoke in relation to what the Disciples and the people were thinking.  Christ was not accused of tearing down circumcision or anything else.  He was mostly accused of Sabbath-breaking. Matt 5:25 Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Obviously in this verse Jesus was refering to the civil law of the land, not the Ten Commandments.

He was giving good advice.  Where can this statement be found in the Old Testament?  I can quote Psalms for living and guidance. Matt 7:12 In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets. There is that pesky "the Law and the Prophets" quote again meaning that Jesus was once again using the word "Law " to mean the the writings of Moses, not just the Ten Commandments.

The writings of Moses are valid as are Psalms and others even for today, but even common sense dictates that all that they said cannot apply to us.  Common sense dictates that we are not Jews in our own nation.  I will not support the building of refuge cities, etc.  I will not support the idea of an avenger seeking out someone who may have accidently     ed a relative of his.  I do not support an eye for and eye and a tooth for a tooth.  It was the law of the land when Israel was a nation.  Common sense dictates, and Christ was teaching common sense knowing that the Jews would reject Him and that Christianity would not become an independent nation. Matt 11:13 For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. Once again, the Law and the Prophets which has to imply the whole Law, not just the Ten Commandments.

Already commented, and still now you have to show that YOU keep all the law.  We don’t have to obey the civil laws of Moses because even common sense dictates.  All I know is that you insist Christ speaks about the whole law. You are therefore bound, and I don’t want to hear you branching off to anything that sounds contrary from either Paul, Peter, or any other speaker.  CHRIST has spoken! Matt 12:5 Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are         ? I looked and looked, but no matter how hard I looked, I just couldn’t find this statement  in the Ten Commandments.  Jesus must have been using "Law" to mean the whole Law again.

Okay then, obey the laws of the temple!  Where is it? Matt 22:36 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" This time it isn’t Jesus speaking, but a lawyer.  One could make a case that the lawyer was refering to the Ten Commandments.  If so, then what Jesus said is really interesting.  Jesus quoted two commandments, neither one being a part of the Ten Commandments, as being the greatest commandments. He then concluded His statement with the following.

The first commandment says thou shalt have no other God’s before me. That, combined with the first four details more fully that first great command.  The last six dictate the second.  My website deals specifically with these very same issues, but I can prophesy that it won’t make a difference with my antagonists here. Christ said on these two commands hang all the law and the prophets. That means all the Law and the Prophets are based on that command.  On the equitable working of society are based all the laws of the land. We don’t ignore the actual laws in order to tell the world we are regarding what they are based upon. Matt 22:40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." Isn’t that annoying, Jesus just plain refuses to use the word "Law" in a way that would point to the Ten Commandments and validate your statement.

According to a despot, of course!  Are you keeping all the Law and the Prophets as you insist Christ is demanding compliance to? And last, but not least: Matt 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and    min, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. Jesus uses "law" again, but once again it is obvious that He does not mean the Ten Commandments.

Justice, mercy and faithfulness.  This also has a civil connotation. But yes, Christ was referring to more than just the Ten Commandments. Common sense will dictate however.  Even the Ten Commandments.  If it tells me that I shall not covet another’s manservant, maidservant or    , I am not going to buy an     for my neighbor so that I would not covet it. Well Teddy boy, it has been shown to any who are unbiased and reasonable, that your application of Matt 5 to support the continuation of Sabbath observance is totally without merit.

To despot Frank Furter.  You Vatican despots always claim this.  I will direct you to the specific article on my website and I want you to deal with the question and the issue. It is in fact a misapplication of scripture to use Matt 5 to support Sabbath observance.  If one must misapply scripture to support a doctrine, then perhaps the doctrine needs re-examination.

You mean that since Christ told the world we have to keep the entire Old Testament, as you despot, you are doing that?  Why do you misapply scripture?  Why then not listen to Christ’s plain words as you claim? Ted McMillan

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Question:

Pro-Family Activist Connie Marshner Surveys the U.S. Scene snipped: "And until a couple is contemplating marriage, the model for male-female relationships should be fraternal friendship. " LOL, this chick wants to single handedly send women back to the dark ages!   Dawn

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A ZENIT DAILY DISPATCH WHERE HAS HEALTHY ROMANCE GONE FOR YOUNG PEOPLE? Pro-Family Activist Connie Marshner Surveys the U.S. Scene WASHINGTON, D.C., 31 JAN. 31 2002 (ZENIT). Courtship and healthy dating among young people seem to be on the endangered-species list in the United States. So holds Connie Marshner, a longtime pro-life and pro-family activist in the nation’s capital, who is author of "Decent Exposure: How to Teach Your Children About Sex" (Legacy Communications, 1994). Dating as the secular youth culture currently defines the term is little more than a euphemism for serial sex partnering. Every public high school student knows that to be "dating" somebody is to be sexually active Where do they grow these idiots? The teenagers I know think dating means dating. It doesn’t mean being sexually active at all. What is it with these pro-life morons that every statement has to be a lie? Rest of this sphincter’s bullshit snipped.

LOL- I know! After I read that it was just so appalling that I had to post and let everyone see it. That women should be institutionalized Dawn

Response:

A ZENIT DAILY DISPATCH WHERE HAS HEALTHY ROMANCE GONE FOR YOUNG PEOPLE? Pro-Family Activist Connie Marshner Surveys the U.S. Scene WASHINGTON, D.C., 31 JAN. 31 2002 (ZENIT). Courtship and healthy dating among young people seem to be on the endangered-species list in the United States. So holds Connie Marshner, a longtime pro-life and pro-family activist in the nation’s capital, who is author of "Decent Exposure: How to Teach Your Children About Sex" (Legacy Communications, 1994). She is also chairman of the Cardinal Newman Society, which works to maintain the religious identity of Catholic colleges. In this interview with ZENIT, Marshner discussed the state of romantic dating and how young people can be helped in this field. Q: A few months ago there was a study by the Independent Women’s Forum on college-campus dating that basically said courtship is in decline. Is that a fair assessment of life on U.S. college campuses? You’ve done your own research in this field. Marshner: First, we must define our terms in order to avoid misunderstandings. Most parents think of "dating" to be something like it was in the 1940s and ’50s: what was sometimes called "playing the field." In other words, a girl might go out with one fellow one weekend, and with another fellow the next weekend. However, that is not how most people who are doing it define dating. What kids mean by "dating" now is what previous generations called "going steady." You go out with one person, but only with that person. Dating as the secular youth culture currently defines the term is little more than a euphemism for serial sex partnering. Every public high school student knows that to be "dating" somebody is to be sexually active

Question:

Clergy/Leaders’ Mail-list No. 1-110   (Practical Christian Living) LIFE IS A PRECIOUS GIFT OF GOD That was a very touching and beautiful story.  But we need to remember that when Rowland Croucher it is for the purpose of promoting false-christianity and deceiving souls into hell.

Please excuse a typo.  The line should read, "when Rowland Croucher publishes it is for the purpose of promoting false-christianity and deceiving souls into hell." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I hope that no one will take offence at my intolerance of false preachers like Rowland Croucher that infest  the world with the purpose of deceiving souls into a comfortable disobedience of the Bible. I pray that no one here is going to be so naive as to believe that a false preacher is going to admit that he/she/it is a false preacher. They are, of course, going to say "Oh yes our church obeys the Bible" and they can publish all kinds of emotion tweaking fables. One of my goals is to study what the Bible really teaches and thereby expose the religious filth like the "Jim & Tammys" and the "Jimmy Swaggarts".  Now, I am not so naive to think that Satan is going to allow the truth to be studied without sending some of his ministers and deceivers and even reprobates pretending to be "Oneness" while promoting rebellion, heresy and error. The Bible does NOT teach that we should be tolerant of false christian deceivers like Rowland Croucher that are the vilest of parasites, filth that actually snare souls that are trying to find God, and deceive them with lies. Folks, please understand, this is not a game.  Nice sweet people are being deceived into a very very real hell by religious filth and deceivers.  What viler thing could there be upon the earth than a sweet talking false preacher?  Here we have ALL these people that *think* that they have obeyed the Bible and are headed for heaven, YET, the basic Acts 2:38 message sounds strange and foreign to them because some deceiving filth like Rowland Croucher has preached them full of sugar coated lies, AND has probably already preached some of their older relatives into hell.   Of COURSE these men oppose the truth!  If their congregations find out what true Christianity is, then they will realize that their preacher has already deceived some of their relatives into hell. THINK ABOUT IT!  They can’t admit even what they know because then they would have to admit that everyone who had died in their church was in hell.  THEY HAVE TO FIGHT THIS TRUTH! It is the job of a TRUE preacher to convince you TO OBEY the Word of God, it is the job of Satan and his servants like Rowland Croucher to scratch your itching ears and explain to you why you really don’t need to obey the Word of God and it is the job of the reprobate to muddy the waters between the two. Look what Paul says about false christian filth like Rowland Croucher. II Corinthians 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.   II Corinthians 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. II Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. II Corinthians 11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. II Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, II Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: II Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; It is such a simple matter.  Some here are trying to convince you to obey the Bible and others here like Rowland Croucher are trying to convince you why you don’t need to obey the Bible. Pastor Winter

– "…whips and chains excite me." – Jim Rochelle 2001 "My husband’s and my marital relationship is none of your business (especially not what goes on behind closed doors)…" – Doris Rochelle 2001 "Copyright infringement my ***" (obscenity deleted) – Brian Boggs cultist 2000 "lying to mr. winter is just a defense" – Mark Bassett UPC Preacher 1999 "It isnt a salvation issue…"  - Mark Bassett 1999 regarding Biblical holiness "Sorry old man. I never lie, if I, can help it." – Raymond W Knapp 2000 "…God is Triune in nature…" – Raymond W Knapp 2000 http://www.onenesschristian.org  PreRapture Ministry Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal See reprobates Bassett and Knapp in action at http://www.impsmail.org

Response:

Clergy/Leaders’ Mail-list No. 1-110   (Practical Christian Living) LIFE IS A PRECIOUS GIFT OF GOD

That was a very touching and beautiful story.  But we need to remember that when Rowland Croucher it is for the purpose of promoting false-christianity and deceiving souls into hell. I hope that no one will take offence at my intolerance of false preachers like Rowland Croucher that infest  the world with the purpose of deceiving souls into a comfortable disobedience of the Bible. I pray that no one here is going to be so naive as to believe that a false preacher is going to admit that he/she/it is a false preacher. They are, of course, going to say "Oh yes our church obeys the Bible" and they can publish all kinds of emotion tweaking fables. One of my goals is to study what the Bible really teaches and thereby expose the religious filth like the "Jim & Tammys" and the "Jimmy Swaggarts".  Now, I am not so naive to think that Satan is going to allow the truth to be studied without sending some of his ministers and deceivers and even reprobates pretending to be "Oneness" while promoting rebellion, heresy and error. The Bible does NOT teach that we should be tolerant of false christian deceivers like Rowland Croucher that are the vilest of parasites, filth that actually snare souls that are trying to find God, and deceive them with lies. Folks, please understand, this is not a game.  Nice sweet people are being deceived into a very very real hell by religious filth and deceivers.  What viler thing could there be upon the earth than a sweet talking false preacher?  Here we have ALL these people that *think* that they have obeyed the Bible and are headed for heaven, YET, the basic Acts 2:38 message sounds strange and foreign to them because some deceiving filth like Rowland Croucher has preached them full of sugar coated lies, AND has probably already preached some of their older relatives into hell.   Of COURSE these men oppose the truth!  If their congregations find out what true Christianity is, then they will realize that their preacher has already deceived some of their relatives into hell. THINK ABOUT IT!  They can’t admit even what they know because then they would have to admit that everyone who had died in their church was in hell.  THEY HAVE TO FIGHT THIS TRUTH! It is the job of a TRUE preacher to convince you TO OBEY the Word of God, it is the job of Satan and his servants like Rowland Croucher to scratch your itching ears and explain to you why you really don’t need to obey the Word of God and it is the job of the reprobate to muddy the waters between the two. Look what Paul says about false christian filth like Rowland Croucher. II Corinthians 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.   II Corinthians 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. II Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. II Corinthians 11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. II Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, II Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: II Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; It is such a simple matter.  Some here are trying to convince you to obey the Bible and others here like Rowland Croucher are trying to convince you why you don’t need to obey the Bible. Pastor Winter — Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal /*/ PreRapture Ministry http://www.onenesschristian.org for Bible studies (text and audio) Have you obeyed Acts 2:38 as Paul taught in Acts 19:4-6?

Response:

Clergy/Leaders’ Mail-list No. 1-110   (Practical Christian Living) LIFE IS A PRECIOUS GIFT OF GOD Jack took a long look at his speedometer before slowing down: 73 in a 55 zone. Fourth time in as many months. How could a guy get caught so often? When his car had slowed to 10 miles an hour, Jack pulled over, but only partially. Let the cop worry about the potential traffic hazard. Maybe some other car will tweak his backside with a mirror. The cop was stepping out of his car, the big pad in hand. Bob? Bob from Church? Jack sunk farther into his trench coat. This was worse than the coming ticket. A Christian cop catching a guy from his own church. A guy who happened to be a little eager to get home after a long day at the office. A guy he was about to play golf with tomorrow. Jumping out of the car, he approached a man he saw every Sunday, a man he’d never seen in uniform. "Hi, Bob. Fancy meeting you like this." "Hello, Jack." No smile. "Guess you caught me red-handed in a rush to see my wife and kids." "Yeah, I guess." Bob seemed uncertain. Good. "I’ve seen some long days at the office lately. I’m afraid I bent the rules a bit-just this once." Jack toed at a pebble on the pavement. "Diane said something about roast beef and potatoes tonight. Know what I mean?" "I know what you mean. I also know that you have a reputation in our precinct." Ouch. This was not going in the right direction. Time to change tactics. "What’d you clock me at?" "Seventy! Would you sit back in your car please?" "Now wait a minute here, Bob. I checked as soon as I saw you. I was barely nudging 65." The lie seemed to come easier with every ticket. "Please, Jack, in the car." Flustered, Jack hunched himself through the still-open door. Slamming it shut, he stared at the dash board. He was in no rush to open the window. The minutes ticked by. Bob scribbled away on the pad. Why hadn’t he asked for a driver’s license? Whatever the reason, it would be a month of Sundays before Jack ever sat near this cop again. A tap on the door jerked his head to the left. There was Bob, a folded paper in hand.  Jack rolled down the window a mere two inches, just enough room for Bob to pass him the slip. "Thanks." Jack could not quite keep the sneer out of his voice. Bob returned to his police car without a word. Jack watched his retreat in the mirror. Jack unfolded the sheet of paper. How much was this one going to cost? Wait a minute. What was this? Some kind of joke? Certainly not a ticket. Jack began to read: "Dear Jack, Once upon a time I had a daughter. She was six when killed by a car. You guessed it-a speeding driver. A fine and three months in jail, & the man was free. Free to hug his daughters, all three of them. I only had one, and I’m going to have to wait until Heaven before I can ever hug her again. "A thousand times I’ve tried to forgive that man. A thousand times I thought I had. Maybe I did, but I need to do it again. Even now. "Pray for me. And be careful. My son is all I have left. – Bob" Jack turned around in time to see Bob’s car pull away and head down the road. Jack watched until it disappeared. A full 15 minutes later, he, too, pulled away and drove slowly home, praying for forgiveness and hugging a surprised wife and kids when he arrived. Life is a precious gift from God. Handle it with care. (Author unknown, but CLM will acknowledge if advised.) Clergy/Leaders’ Mailing List                        (Moderated) This mailing list is open to all Christians via Internet e-mail.   (in DOS ASCII Text format please if ‘attached’ or ‘imported’)                                with SUBJECT reading SUBSCRIBE                                with SUBJECT reading UNSUBSCRIBE    Copyright: Postings may be re-sent ONLY with all copyright                      notifications intact. — Director, John Mark Ministries: counseling and consulting services for pastors, ex-pastors, church leaders and managers. http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm (4200+ articles) http://priscillasfriends.org/ (Pastors’ wives)

Response:

Question:

Clergy/Leaders’ Mail-list No. 1-110   (Practical Christian Living) LIFE IS A PRECIOUS GIFT OF GOD That was a very touching and beautiful story.  But we need to remember that when Rowland Croucher it is for the purpose of promoting false-christianity and deceiving souls into hell.

Please excuse a typo.  The line should read, "when Rowland Croucher publishes it is for the purpose of promoting false-christianity and deceiving souls into hell." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I hope that no one will take offence at my intolerance of false preachers like Rowland Croucher that infest  the world with the purpose of deceiving souls into a comfortable disobedience of the Bible. I pray that no one here is going to be so naive as to believe that a false preacher is going to admit that he/she/it is a false preacher. They are, of course, going to say "Oh yes our church obeys the Bible" and they can publish all kinds of emotion tweaking fables. One of my goals is to study what the Bible really teaches and thereby expose the religious filth like the "Jim & Tammys" and the "Jimmy Swaggarts".  Now, I am not so naive to think that Satan is going to allow the truth to be studied without sending some of his ministers and deceivers and even reprobates pretending to be "Oneness" while promoting rebellion, heresy and error. The Bible does NOT teach that we should be tolerant of false christian deceivers like Rowland Croucher that are the vilest of parasites, filth that actually snare souls that are trying to find God, and deceive them with lies. Folks, please understand, this is not a game.  Nice sweet people are being deceived into a very very real hell by religious filth and deceivers.  What viler thing could there be upon the earth than a sweet talking false preacher?  Here we have ALL these people that *think* that they have obeyed the Bible and are headed for heaven, YET, the basic Acts 2:38 message sounds strange and foreign to them because some deceiving filth like Rowland Croucher has preached them full of sugar coated lies, AND has probably already preached some of their older relatives into hell.   Of COURSE these men oppose the truth!  If their congregations find out what true Christianity is, then they will realize that their preacher has already deceived some of their relatives into hell. THINK ABOUT IT!  They can’t admit even what they know because then they would have to admit that everyone who had died in their church was in hell.  THEY HAVE TO FIGHT THIS TRUTH! It is the job of a TRUE preacher to convince you TO OBEY the Word of God, it is the job of Satan and his servants like Rowland Croucher to scratch your itching ears and explain to you why you really don’t need to obey the Word of God and it is the job of the reprobate to muddy the waters between the two. Look what Paul says about false christian filth like Rowland Croucher. II Corinthians 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.   II Corinthians 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. II Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. II Corinthians 11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. II Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, II Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: II Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; It is such a simple matter.  Some here are trying to convince you to obey the Bible and others here like Rowland Croucher are trying to convince you why you don’t need to obey the Bible. Pastor Winter

– "…whips and chains excite me." – Jim Rochelle 2001 "My husband’s and my marital relationship is none of your business (especially not what goes on behind closed doors)…" – Doris Rochelle 2001 "Copyright infringement my ***" (obscenity deleted) – Brian Boggs cultist 2000 "lying to mr. winter is just a defense" – Mark Bassett UPC Preacher 1999 "It isnt a salvation issue…"  - Mark Bassett 1999 regarding Biblical holiness "Sorry old man. I never lie, if I, can help it." – Raymond W Knapp 2000 "…God is Triune in nature…" – Raymond W Knapp 2000 http://www.onenesschristian.org  PreRapture Ministry Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal See reprobates Bassett and Knapp in action at http://www.impsmail.org

Response:

Clergy/Leaders’ Mail-list No. 1-110   (Practical Christian Living) LIFE IS A PRECIOUS GIFT OF GOD

That was a very touching and beautiful story.  But we need to remember that when Rowland Croucher it is for the purpose of promoting false-christianity and deceiving souls into hell. I hope that no one will take offence at my intolerance of false preachers like Rowland Croucher that infest  the world with the purpose of deceiving souls into a comfortable disobedience of the Bible. I pray that no one here is going to be so naive as to believe that a false preacher is going to admit that he/she/it is a false preacher. They are, of course, going to say "Oh yes our church obeys the Bible" and they can publish all kinds of emotion tweaking fables. One of my goals is to study what the Bible really teaches and thereby expose the religious filth like the "Jim & Tammys" and the "Jimmy Swaggarts".  Now, I am not so naive to think that Satan is going to allow the truth to be studied without sending some of his ministers and deceivers and even reprobates pretending to be "Oneness" while promoting rebellion, heresy and error. The Bible does NOT teach that we should be tolerant of false christian deceivers like Rowland Croucher that are the vilest of parasites, filth that actually snare souls that are trying to find God, and deceive them with lies. Folks, please understand, this is not a game.  Nice sweet people are being deceived into a very very real hell by religious filth and deceivers.  What viler thing could there be upon the earth than a sweet talking false preacher?  Here we have ALL these people that *think* that they have obeyed the Bible and are headed for heaven, YET, the basic Acts 2:38 message sounds strange and foreign to them because some deceiving filth like Rowland Croucher has preached them full of sugar coated lies, AND has probably already preached some of their older relatives into hell.   Of COURSE these men oppose the truth!  If their congregations find out what true Christianity is, then they will realize that their preacher has already deceived some of their relatives into hell. THINK ABOUT IT!  They can’t admit even what they know because then they would have to admit that everyone who had died in their church was in hell.  THEY HAVE TO FIGHT THIS TRUTH! It is the job of a TRUE preacher to convince you TO OBEY the Word of God, it is the job of Satan and his servants like Rowland Croucher to scratch your itching ears and explain to you why you really don’t need to obey the Word of God and it is the job of the reprobate to muddy the waters between the two. Look what Paul says about false christian filth like Rowland Croucher. II Corinthians 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.   II Corinthians 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. II Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. II Corinthians 11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. II Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, II Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: II Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; It is such a simple matter.  Some here are trying to convince you to obey the Bible and others here like Rowland Croucher are trying to convince you why you don’t need to obey the Bible. Pastor Winter — Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal /*/ PreRapture Ministry http://www.onenesschristian.org for Bible studies (text and audio) Have you obeyed Acts 2:38 as Paul taught in Acts 19:4-6?

Response:

Question:

Someone said: SORRY BUT I WILL NEVER OBEY THE POPE’S COMMANDS.  He is an old senile *MAN*. Jesus is what brought me into this faith. Not a glorified human dressed in white. you speak for the whole church as far as this? You *MUST* follow the Pope’s commands? Anyone else in this newsgroup think the same? The current pope is, indeed, a senile old man.  Remarkable for his age.

He has Parkinson’s, not senility.  Learn the difference.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you want to find the answers, you must drop the senile Pope routine. If you approach your quest with an open mind and open heart, you may find that there is more to the story than what is on the surface. Approach wondering what are the good reasons certain actions are considered immoral, instead of disagreeing without knowing the full story. A Catholic should inform their conscience before dissenting from Church teachings. So you’re saying if I want an answer to the question I have I should think that the pope is in his mental faculty’s to run the church You must realize that the Pope does not constitute the entire Church, and that he’s not absolute monarch over every diocese.  I understand from our Archbishop (and the Archbishops of Montreal have never been ones to be papal yes-men) that the Pope is not senile, it’s just his body that’s falling to bits right now.  So you are also acting with incomplete knowledge. I’m sorry but I disagree. If a man can’t even stand straight or kneel down I don’t think he should run the church or anything with as many members (in the millions or more FDR did pretty well in WW2 despite his physical limitations.  I think that most of your arguments here are unfounded, and are more a reflection of your disagreement with Catholicism than anything else. Oh brother, 3rd reply with the same thing, I must be an idiot that can’t express myself ( please don’t agree ) THere’s a big difference between thinking clearly and being able to walk. I’m saying a person that doesn’t think right in his old age shouldn’t be making dicisions (sp?) for millions of a whole religion.

Once again- he has Parkinson’s disease.  Haven’t you taken that in yet? It’s been repeated a couple times already.  He hasn’t displayed signs of senility- just of loss of muscle control associated with the disease.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m sorry but I disagree. If a man can’t even stand straight or kneel down I don’t think he should run the church or anything with as many members (in the millions or more FDR did pretty well in WW2 despite his physical limitations.  I think that most of your arguments here are unfounded, and are more a reflection of your disagreement with Catholicism than anything else. Oh brother, 3rd reply with the same thing, I must be an idiot that can’t express myself ( please don’t agree ) THere’s a big difference between thinking clearly and being able to walk. I’m saying a person that doesn’t think right in his old age shouldn’t be making dicisions (sp?) for millions of a whole religion.

And that’s not what you said, btw.  Just look above for your quote. So are you NOW saying that if he *can* think clearly but is otherwise incapacitated there’s not much to be concerned about?  Might want to consider question that since that may be the situation soon.

Response:

Someone said: SORRY BUT I WILL NEVER OBEY THE POPE’S COMMANDS.  He is an old senile *MAN*. Jesus is what brought me into this faith. Not a glorified human dressed in white. you speak for the whole church as far as this? You *MUST* follow the Pope’s commands? Anyone else in this newsgroup think the same?

The current pope is, indeed, a senile old man.  Remarkable for his age. He obviously should resign and let a younger man take over.  Why doesn’t he?  Because of pride?  Because he thinks he is better than anyone else who might take over? Was Peter the first "pope"?  Obviously not.  And he sure wasn’t infallible. Paul shouted him down when they met in Antioch, and Paul did not claim to be pope, or infallible.  He just claimed to be right. student

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – SORRY BUT I WILL NEVER OBEY THE POPE’S COMMANDS.  He is an old senile *MAN*. Jesus is what brought me into this faith. Not a glorified human dressed in white. you speak for the whole church as far as this? You *MUST* follow the Pope’s commands? Anyone else in this newsgroup think the same? I don’t agree with the statement as it stands. Catholics are not obliged to follow the pope’s commands, in the sense that he, Karol Wotija, might say, "do this", "don’t do that". We are obliged to follow the teachings of the church – the two are not synonymous.  It’s the word "commands" here, which might be the problem, and a conflation of the idea of "a man" and "a role". In many instances, the teachings of the church are articulated through the pope’s (or more properly, popes’ ) works, such as encyclicals, etc. But these are *not* the teachings of one person, but rather of the church. I have a grave obligation to form my conscience to the best of my ability to be in accord with the teachings of the church.  The pope’s sermons, etc., articulate this, in exactly the same way as those of any ordained or approved preacher’s should, but the bedrock of belief rests on the teachings of the church. "The pope’s commands" may be a short hand for all of the above, but it’s not overly clear. It may also be shorthand for the very, very, very rare exercise of ex cathedra statements – if so, it’s again not clear.  Ex cathedra statements are in no way commands – they are (again) statements of the teaching of the church. What is important is not the commands of one person (Karol Wotija, theologian, exskier, etc.), but rather the teaching of the church. This is the difference between the man and the role. — janet Sorry but I’ve never been too familiar with technical terms of the church.

What was technical in the above?  (All of it left in).  The distinction between the teaching of the church, embedded in that tradition for hundreds or more years, verifiable in documents, and the words of a person speaking off their own bat, seems a fairly obvious one to me. I still stand on my statement. I will not abide by an amendment to the 10 commandments from the pope.

Nor would many of us. But since he’s not done that, and is hardly likely to (after all, in 2000 years, it hasn’t happened), I don’t understand the problem…? He is not chosen by a divine being but by men, men who have sexual feelings.

??? There are a number of issues there. One is that one hopes and prays that the Spirit does have something to do with the choice of pope, but I do take your point that cardinals are all human. But what in heaven’s name does the fact that they have sexual feelings have to do with it?  There aren’t many humans who *don’t* have sexual feelings – it’s part of being human, surely? They are not flawed, they are just human. We all have this feeling. In conclusion, I say a human being voted in by humans ( all of us being imperfect ) we’re no one to decide what God wants from us, we can only assume, and we all know what that makes us. —

I’ve completely lost what you are saying here. You say that would not accept commands from the pope.  I agree, and point out that the teachings are those of the church as a whole rather than the pope.  You point out he was elected by cardinals, and get no argument from me. But you then introduce the idea of additional commandments (don’t know where that came from) and the (AFAICS) irrelevant but obvious fact that cardinals are humans with feelings. But as for your last sentence, if we can’t decide what God wants from us, who can?  That’s the whole point about discernment of vocation – I *have* to decide what God wants from me, that’s what being a responsible adult Christian is all about. ?? — janet

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m sorry but I disagree. If a man can’t even stand straight or kneel down I don’t think he should run the church or anything with as many members (in the millions or more). Physical disability does not bar people from employment in the secular world, why should it in the religious one?! I’m not saying the ability to move your arms and legs or see or hear. I’m saying the ability to think clearly. —

And what evidence is there that John Paul is not able to think clearly? The only thing you’ve mentioned is a physical degeneration, not a mental one. — janet

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you want to find the answers, you must drop the senile Pope routine. If you approach your quest with an open mind and open heart, you may find that there is more to the story than what is on the surface. Approach wondering what are the good reasons certain actions are considered immoral, instead of disagreeing without knowing the full story. A Catholic should inform their conscience before dissenting from Church teachings. So you’re saying if I want an answer to the question I have I should think that the pope is in his mental faculty’s to run the church You must realize that the Pope does not constitute the entire Church, and that he’s not absolute monarch over every diocese.  I understand from our Archbishop (and the Archbishops of Montreal have never been ones to be papal yes-men) that the Pope is not senile, it’s just his body that’s falling to bits right now.  So you are also acting with incomplete knowledge. I’m sorry but I disagree. If a man can’t even stand straight or kneel down I don’t think he should run the church or anything with as many members (in the millions or more FDR did pretty well in WW2 despite his physical limitations.  I think that most of your arguments here are unfounded, and are more a reflection of your disagreement with Catholicism than anything else.

Oh brother, 3rd reply with the same thing, I must be an idiot that can’t express myself ( please don’t agree ) THere’s a big difference between thinking clearly and being able to walk. I’m saying a person that doesn’t think right in his old age shouldn’t be making dicisions (sp?) for millions of a whole religion. — Charlie Maul  ***                             . . . W A R N I N G . . . ***  ***         YOU HAVE ACCESSED A PROPRIETARY          ***  ***         COMPUTER SYSTEM. ILLEGAL INTRUSION     ***  ***         OR UNAUTHORIZED USE OF THIS SYSTEM     ***  ***         OR NETWORK IS PROHIBITED.                          ***

Response:

I’m sorry but I disagree. If a man can’t even stand straight or kneel down I don’t think he should run the church or anything with as many members (in the millions or more). Physical disability does not bar people from employment in the secular world, why should it in the religious one?!

I’m not saying the ability to move your arms and legs or see or hear. I’m saying the ability to think clearly. — Charlie Maul  ***                             . . . W A R N I N G . . . ***  ***         YOU HAVE ACCESSED A PROPRIETARY          ***  ***         COMPUTER SYSTEM. ILLEGAL INTRUSION     ***  ***         OR UNAUTHORIZED USE OF THIS SYSTEM     ***  ***         OR NETWORK IS PROHIBITED.                          *** – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tony Miller seems to think we MUST obey the pope because he is the pope and we’re catholics. I’m glad to see he is the only one with this distorted belief. — janet

Response:

SORRY BUT I WILL NEVER OBEY THE POPE’S COMMANDS.  He is an old senile *MAN*. Jesus is what brought me into this faith. Not a glorified human dressed in white. Do you speak for the whole church as far as this? You *MUST* follow the Pope’s commands? Anyone else in this newsgroup think the same?

I don’t agree with the statement as it stands. Catholics are not obliged to follow the pope’s commands, in the sense that he, Karol Wotija, might say, "do this", "don’t do that". We are obliged to follow the teachings of the church – the two are not synonymous.  It’s the word "commands" here, which might be the problem, and a conflation of the idea of "a man" and "a role". In many instances, the teachings of the church are articulated through the pope’s (or more properly, popes’ ) works, such as encyclicals, etc. But these are *not* the teachings of one person, but rather of the church. I have a grave obligation to form my conscience to the best of my ability to be in accord with the teachings of the church.  The pope’s sermons, etc., articulate this, in exactly the same way as those of any ordained or approved preacher’s should, but the bedrock of belief rests on the teachings of the church. "The pope’s commands" may be a short hand for all of the above, but it’s not overly clear. It may also be shorthand for the very, very, very rare exercise of ex cathedra statements – if so, it’s again not clear.  Ex cathedra statements are in no way commands – they are (again) statements of the teaching of the church. What is important is not the commands of one person (Karol Wotija, theologian, exskier, etc.), but rather the teaching of the church. This is the difference between the man and the role. — janet

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you want to find the answers, you must drop the senile Pope routine. If you approach your quest with an open mind and open heart, you may find that there is more to the story than what is on the surface. Approach wondering what are the good reasons certain actions are considered immoral, instead of disagreeing without knowing the full story. A Catholic should inform their conscience before dissenting from Church teachings. So you’re saying if I want an answer to the question I have I should think that the pope is in his mental faculty’s to run the church You must realize that the Pope does not constitute the entire Church, and that he’s not absolute monarch over every diocese.  I understand from our Archbishop (and the Archbishops of Montreal have never been ones to be papal yes-men) that the Pope is not senile, it’s just his body that’s falling to bits right now.  So you are also acting with incomplete knowledge. I’m sorry but I disagree. If a man can’t even stand straight or kneel down I don’t think he should run the church or anything with as many members (in the millions or more).  Tony Miller seems to think we MUST obey the pope because he is the pope and we’re catholics. I’m glad to see he is the only one with this distorted belief. So you think that physical limitations make a person less capable in some way? IIRC correctly, FDR was disabled but is considered one of the great presidents. I can’t speak for Tony, but no one has to obey the Pope, it’s called free will.

I think there’s a big difference between being able to walk and being able to think clearly. Maybe you’d want to rethink this and reply. — Charlie Maul  ***                             . . . W A R N I N G . . . ***  ***         YOU HAVE ACCESSED A PROPRIETARY          ***  ***         COMPUTER SYSTEM. ILLEGAL INTRUSION     ***  ***         OR UNAUTHORIZED USE OF THIS SYSTEM     ***  ***         OR NETWORK IS PROHIBITED.                          ***

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – SORRY BUT I WILL NEVER OBEY THE POPE’S COMMANDS.  He is an old senile *MAN*. Jesus is what brought me into this faith. Not a glorified human dressed in white. Do you speak for the whole church as far as this? You *MUST* follow the Pope’s commands? Anyone else in this newsgroup think the same? I don’t agree with the statement as it stands. Catholics are not obliged to follow the pope’s commands, in the sense that he, Karol Wotija, might say, "do this", "don’t do that". We are obliged to follow the teachings of the church – the two are not synonymous.  It’s the word "commands" here, which might be the problem, and a conflation of the idea of "a man" and "a role". In many instances, the teachings of the church are articulated through the pope’s (or more properly, popes’ ) works, such as encyclicals, etc. But these are *not* the teachings of one person, but rather of the church. I have a grave obligation to form my conscience to the best of my ability to be in accord with the teachings of the church.  The pope’s sermons, etc., articulate this, in exactly the same way as those of any ordained or approved preacher’s should, but the bedrock of belief rests on the teachings of the church. "The pope’s commands" may be a short hand for all of the above, but it’s not overly clear. It may also be shorthand for the very, very, very rare exercise of ex cathedra statements – if so, it’s again not clear.  Ex cathedra statements are in no way commands – they are (again) statements of the teaching of the church. What is important is not the commands of one person (Karol Wotija, theologian, exskier, etc.), but rather the teaching of the church. This is the difference between the man and the role. — janet

Sorry but I’ve never been too familiar with technical terms of the church. I still stand on my statement. I will not abide by an amendment to the 10 commandments from the pope. He is not chosen by a divine being but by men, men who have sexual feelings. They are not flawed, they are just human. We all have this feeling. In conclusion, I say a human being voted in by humans ( all of us being imperfect ) we’re no one to decide what God wants from us, we can only assume, and we all know what that makes us. — Charlie Maul  ***                             . . . W A R N I N G . . . ***  ***         YOU HAVE ACCESSED A PROPRIETARY          ***  ***         COMPUTER SYSTEM. ILLEGAL INTRUSION     ***  ***         OR UNAUTHORIZED USE OF THIS SYSTEM     ***  ***         OR NETWORK IS PROHIBITED.                          ***

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you want to find the answers, you must drop the senile Pope routine. If you approach your quest with an open mind and open heart, you may find that there is more to the story than what is on the surface. Approach wondering what are the good reasons certain actions are considered immoral, instead of disagreeing without knowing the full story. A Catholic should inform their conscience before dissenting from Church teachings. So you’re saying if I want an answer to the question I have I should think that the pope is in his mental faculty’s to run the church You must realize that the Pope does not constitute the entire Church, and that he’s not absolute monarch over every diocese.  I understand from our Archbishop (and the Archbishops of Montreal have never been ones to be papal yes-men) that the Pope is not senile, it’s just his body that’s falling to bits right now.  So you are also acting with incomplete knowledge. I’m sorry but I disagree. If a man can’t even stand straight or kneel down I don’t think he should run the church or anything with as many members (in the millions

or more FDR did pretty well in WW2 despite his physical limitations.  I think that most of your arguments here are unfounded, and are more a reflection of your disagreement with Catholicism than anything else.

Response:

I’m sorry but I disagree. If a man can’t even stand straight or kneel down I don’t think he should run the church or anything with as many members (in the millions or more).

Physical disability does not bar people from employment in the secular world, why should it in the religious one?! Tony Miller seems to think we MUST obey the pope because he is the pope and we’re catholics. I’m glad to see he is the only one with this distorted belief.

– janet

Response:

This isn’t necessarily true.  Not everyone becomes senile.  My grandfather died at 89 and was sharp as a tack. Did your grandfather mumble all the time, walk with a hunchback, almost tip himself over when he kneels? No need to answer those, just questions to reflect on.

Those are symptoms of his Parkinson’s, not of senility.  His mind seems pretty clear.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you want to find the answers, you must drop the senile Pope routine. If you approach your quest with an open mind and open heart, you may find that there is more to the story than what is on the surface. Approach wondering what are the good reasons certain actions are considered immoral, instead of disagreeing without knowing the full story. A Catholic should inform their conscience before dissenting from Church teachings. So you’re saying if I want an answer to the question I have I should think that the pope is in his mental faculty’s to run the church

You must realize that the Pope does not constitute the entire Church, and that he’s not absolute monarch over every diocese.  I understand from our Archbishop (and the Archbishops of Montreal have never been ones to be papal yes-men) that the Pope is not senile, it’s just his body that’s falling to bits right now.  So you are also acting with incomplete knowledge.

Response:

<<So you’re saying if I want an answer to the question I have I should think that the pope is in his mental faculty’s to run the church? Did you know he’s human and his brain deteriorates just like every other humans? I’m sorry, I guess my question will go unanswered. I didn’t know you spoke for the whole newsgroup. Can you point me to a catholic newsgroup that believes the pope is not a saint at least? The church teachings don’t depend on whether the pope is senile or not.  The ones you mentioned are the traditional teachings of the church.  What you are raising are questions about them, and that’s certainly valid.  But taking your disagreements out of JP isn’t really justified. You raised three issues:  1) church teaching on homosexuals; can they be devout; are they condemned to hell?  2) church teaching on birth control: having sex when you can’t afford another kid?  3) what happens to the church if the pope IS senile?  who minds the store in the interim? There are a lot of good sites on these on the internet.  Let me just do a ten-second overview on each. Homesexuals:  we need to distinguish the tendency and the act.  The tendency is neutral; there is no sin in being a homosexual.  There is no sin in being asexual.  There is no sin in one’s tendency or lack of it. The sin is in the act.  The church has consistently taught that homosexual acts are wrong.  Paul condemns homosexuality specifically in Romans.  Speaking of the pagans (esp. the Greeks), he said:  "Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity." It’s part of our scripture and tradition. Given the revival of modern paganism and our society’s worship of Success and Sex, it’s probably not too surprising that pagan sins resurface again, too. Birth Control:  Essentially the church teaching is, if you want to have sex, you have to take the chance on kids.  It’s why male-female sex only in marriage makes sense: if kidless sex were okay, then so would male-male, female-female, male-cow, female-hog, etc.  Because then recreational sex would be legitimate, right? But the church’s ancient teaching is that sex is special, not recreational.  We surround sex with ritual, social conventions, laws, taboos; it’s not casual at all!   We’ve downgraded its sacredness so much now that we now treat it like an alternative to bowling or a ballgame.  It ends a date, sort of like a nightcap. Wrong.  It is participating in a God act; it’s how we humans co-create with God.  We make the persons and He adds the soul.  If we make procreation impossible, then we cut God out.  And the sin of using something holy in a trivial and profane way is called Sacrilege. Senile pope:  That’s an interesting question.  We have only had a few popes in history who resigned.  It’s possible but rare. And of course if one in senile then they are not competent, even to resign!  The pope cannot be deposed (there is no church court with higher authority than the pope).  Of course, the church hierarchy would continue on, but without the pope at the helm I’m sure we’d eventually drift. Very good question, though….  Perhaps it wouldn’t be out of bounds to pray that when it’s time for the pope to go, he goes quickly.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you want to find the answers, you must drop the senile Pope routine. If you approach your quest with an open mind and open heart, you may find that there is more to the story than what is on the surface. Approach wondering what are the good reasons certain actions are considered immoral, instead of disagreeing without knowing the full story. A Catholic should inform their conscience before dissenting from Church teachings. So you’re saying if I want an answer to the question I have I should think that the pope is in his mental faculty’s to run the church You must realize that the Pope does not constitute the entire Church, and that he’s not absolute monarch over every diocese.  I understand from our Archbishop (and the Archbishops of Montreal have never been ones to be papal yes-men) that the Pope is not senile, it’s just his body that’s falling to bits right now.  So you are also acting with incomplete knowledge.

I’m sorry but I disagree. If a man can’t even stand straight or kneel down I don’t think he should run the church or anything with as many members (in the millions or more).  Tony Miller seems to think we MUST obey the pope because he is the pope and we’re catholics. I’m glad to see he is the only one with this distorted belief. — Charlie Maul  ***                             . . . W A R N I N G . . . ***  ***         YOU HAVE ACCESSED A PROPRIETARY          ***  ***         COMPUTER SYSTEM. ILLEGAL INTRUSION     ***  ***         OR UNAUTHORIZED USE OF THIS SYSTEM     ***  ***         OR NETWORK IS PROHIBITED.                          ***

Response:

<Snip But the church’s ancient teaching is that sex is special, not recreational.  We surround sex with ritual, social conventions, laws, taboos; it’s not casual at all!  

Are you forgetting the unitive aspect of sexuality in marriage.  The bonding of husband and wife? -Tony — "It is a poverty that a child must die so that you may live as you wish." — Mother Theresa

Response:

Birth Control:  Essentially the church teaching is, if you want to have sex, you have to take the chance on kids.  It’s why male-female sex only in marriage makes sense: if kidless sex were okay, then so would male-male, female-female, male-cow, female-hog, etc.  Because then recreational sex would be legitimate, right?

That isn’t true. The church teaches that sex is 50% unitive. CeCe — I do not feel obligated to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forego their use.         –Galileo Galilei

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <Snip If you want to find the answers, you must drop the senile Pope routine. If you approach your quest with an open mind and open heart, you may find that there is more to the story than what is on the surface. Approach wondering what are the good reasons certain actions are considered immoral, instead of disagreeing without knowing the full story. A Catholic should inform their conscience before dissenting from Church teachings. So you’re saying if I want an answer to the question I have I should think that the pope is in his mental faculty’s to run the church? Did you know he’s human and his brain deteriorates just like every other humans? I’m This isn’t necessarily true.  Not everyone becomes senile.  My grandfather died at 89 and was sharp as a tack.

Did your grandfather mumble all the time, walk with a hunchback, almost tip himself over when he kneels? No need to answer those, just questions to reflect on. sorry, I guess my question will go unanswered. I didn’t know you spoke for the whole newsgroup. Can you point me to a catholic newsgroup that believes the pope is not a saint at least? Well, whether or not he’s a saint will be decided later.  But as a Catholic you are really obligated to be obedient to the Pope and the Magesterum.

SORRY BUT I WILL NEVER OBEY THE POPE’S COMMANDS.  He is an old senile *MAN*. Jesus is what brought me into this faith. Not a glorified human dressed in white. Do you speak for the whole church as far as this? You *MUST* follow the Pope’s commands? Anyone else in this newsgroup think the same? I find this incredulous (sp?) or hard to believe if that’s not the word for the perfect ones. — Charlie Maul  ***                             . . . W A R N I N G . . . ***  ***         YOU HAVE ACCESSED A PROPRIETARY          ***  ***         COMPUTER SYSTEM. ILLEGAL INTRUSION     ***  ***         OR UNAUTHORIZED USE OF THIS SYSTEM     ***  ***         OR NETWORK IS PROHIBITED.                          ***

Response:

Me and Jenn want to know where you people stand as far as the living heirarchy  of the church ((priest, archbishop, pope…)) Me and my wife just had a 1/2 hour discussion about this, I’m not trying to go against the "church" but the church seems like a religious government. The pope being the president. He denounces homosexuals. But what if there is a pair of devout homosexuals? Are they condemned to hell anyway? What if theres a couple that uses condoms but loves each other but they can’t afford to have another kid? Should they just have sex and have another kid and give it up to adoption.????? What if What if? Who do I ask? The priest? Will he give the text book answer a senile pope said?

I think your ’senile pope’ bit betrays your bias right off.  If you’re looking for serious answers then you should probably do some more research into what the Church believes and what it doesn’t.  Oh wait- you don’t like textbook answers do you?  Disregard.

Response:

<Snip If you want to find the answers, you must drop the senile Pope routine. If you approach your quest with an open mind and open heart, you may find that there is more to the story than what is on the surface. Approach wondering what are the good reasons certain actions are considered immoral, instead of disagreeing without knowing the full story. A Catholic should inform their conscience before dissenting from Church teachings. So you’re saying if I want an answer to the question I have I should think that the pope is in his mental faculty’s to run the church? Did you know he’s human and his brain deteriorates just like every other humans? I’m

This isn’t necessarily true.  Not everyone becomes senile.  My grandfather died at 89 and was sharp as a tack. sorry, I guess my question will go unanswered. I didn’t know you spoke for the whole newsgroup. Can you point me to a catholic newsgroup that believes the pope is not a saint at least?

Well, whether or not he’s a saint will be decided later.  But as a Catholic you are really obligated to be obedient to the Pope and the Magesterum. If you’d like to find another newsgroup, or a priest that tells you what you want to hear, I guess you’re welcome to do that.  If you want to find out what Catholicism is really all about, get your hands on the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC).  It’s pretty dry reading, I warn you. If you’d like to find out *why* homosexual *acts* are bad, or *why* you should not use birth control, stick around.  We have some of the most educated Catholics on the planet here.  But don’t take anyone’s word for it.  Verify it in official church documents (the best will give you web references). God bless you on your journey. CM

-Tony Ps: I hear that the folks at alt.religion.christian.baptist don’t revere the Pope — "It is a poverty that a child must die so that you may live as you wish." — Mother Theresa

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So you’re saying if I want an answer to the question I have I should think that the pope is in his mental faculty’s to run the church?

Not quite, I would say – I mean, you needn’t think quite that way, rather than anything about the pope! The idea of the pope’s position rests not on the person of the pope, whoever he may be, but rather on the promise of Christ not to let the gates of hell prevail against the church, and then, later, to be with the church always. Did you know he’s human and his brain deteriorates just like every other humans?

Yup – regretfully watched it for the last almost 20 years; physically, he never really seems to have recovered from being shot.  Mentally, however, some of his best theological work has come in that period. However, the point still remains – no matter what state popes have been in, the protection for the church comes not from them as men, but from the Spirit and from Christ.  There have been some popes in the past who have, shall we say, not set the best example of Christian living, but the church has survived… I’m sorry, I guess my question will go unanswered. I didn’t know you spoke for the whole newsgroup. Can you point me to a catholic newsgroup that believes the pope is not a saint at least?

In one sense, he is – in the sense that St. Paul says we *all* are.  In another sense, he isn’t, in that he is still alive, and so not St. John Paul, if that makes sense. If you mean that no one here thinks he can make a mistake, you’d be very wrong! :}  He’s as human as the next of us, (though one heck of a theologian).  He’s perfectly capable of being wrong, on all sorts of things.  He’s perfectly capable of sinning – the doctrine of infallibility doesn’t say he can’t sin, or that he can’t be wrong.  It’s not really about the pope at all, it’s about protection for the church, if that makes sense. I happen to think this particular pope has done a  very great deal for theology in the church – but I don’t idolise him in any way, nor do I think he is incapable of being wrong. Does that help? :} — janet

Response:

Me and Jenn want to know where you people stand as far as the living heirarchy  of the church ((priest, archbishop, pope…)) Me and my wife just had a 1/2 hour discussion about this, I’m not trying to go against the "church" but the church seems like a religious government. The pope being the president. He denounces homosexuals. But what if there is a pair of devout homosexuals? Are they condemned to hell anyway? What if theres a couple that uses condoms but loves each other but they can’t afford to have another kid? Should they just have sex and have another kid and give it up to adoption.????? What if What if? Who do I ask? The priest? Will he give the text book answer a senile pope said? CM

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Me and Jenn want to know where you people stand as far as the living heirarchy  of the church ((priest, archbishop, pope…)) Me and my wife just had a 1/2 hour discussion about this, I’m not trying to go against the "church" but the church seems like a religious government. The pope being the president. He denounces homosexuals. But what if there is a pair of devout homosexuals? Are they condemned to hell anyway? What if theres a couple that uses condoms but loves each other but they can’t afford to have another kid? Should they just have sex and have another kid and give it up to adoption.????? What if What if? Who do I ask? The priest? Will he give the text book answer a senile pope said? CM If you want to find the answers, you must drop the senile Pope routine. If you approach your quest with an open mind and open heart, you may find that there is more to the story than what is on the surface. Approach wondering what are the good reasons certain actions are considered immoral, instead of disagreeing without knowing the full story. A Catholic should inform their conscience before dissenting from Church teachings.

So you’re saying if I want an answer to the question I have I should think that the pope is in his mental faculty’s to run the church? Did you know he’s human and his brain deteriorates just like every other humans? I’m sorry, I guess my question will go unanswered. I didn’t know you spoke for the whole newsgroup. Can you point me to a catholic newsgroup that believes the pope is not a saint at least? CM

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Question:

"God only knows……and He aint talkin’ " God only knows……and He doesn’t exist. Prove it. Can you prove he does?…..Nope.

So?   Define proof.   What would it take to convince you there is a God and that he loves you???? Can you disprove the existence of invisible pink unicorns?

I did not know that was in dispute  :)                    -   David Glenn Misner   –                                Hemet     CA     USA            http://www.calweb.com/~yodare/david.html                 Sign up for paypal right here    https://secure.paypal.com/refer/pal=excalibur%40reborn.com

Response:

God only knows……and He doesn’t exist. How can you be so sure??? If the Xian god existed he would be throwing hissy fits as he does in the OT, strangely enough he’s very absent from world events. Or has he become more subtle with age?

No.  It is simply a different age.   We are now under Grace. Again  yet another Strawman argument                    -   David Glenn Misner   –                                Hemet     CA     USA            http://www.calweb.com/~yodare/david.html                 Sign up for paypal right here    https://secure.paypal.com/refer/pal=excalibur%40reborn.com

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Can you prove he does?…..Nope. Yes you can. By the existence of His attributes.

Really?  So please enlighten us…provide some of this so-called "proof"…thus far, in years of debating I’ve yet to see one person provide even the tiniest shred of solid evidence that a god exists. — *+_Charos_+* "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." – Thus Spoke Zarathustra, Part II, On Those Who Are Sublime Visit: http://www.alladvantage.com/go.asp?refid=BEC-997 for a great site offering easy and free cash just for surfing the web! (it’s legit)

Response:

"God only knows……and He aint talkin’ "

This is not true. God is continually speaking. You just have to learn the language. God only knows……and He doesn’t exist. Prove it. Can you prove he does?…..Nope.

Yes you can. By the existence of His attributes. Can you disprove the existence of invisible pink unicorns?

The big ones or the little ones?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear DWS, With all due respect, when one begins to differentiate between "true" Christians and false religionists, one becomes part of the problem. There are people, certainly, who call themselves Christians, but whose actions would not indicate to an outside observer that they are anywhere close to that. Exactly my point. Many people are turned off by bad examples of Christian living. Christians have a huge responsibility in this area. Many Christians, myself included, need to look at the very first word John the Baptist and Jesus himself spoke, "repent!" As far as non-believers go, I wish they could look past the poor examples to see the real truth of what Jesus was saying. I’ve heard people say Hitler was a Christian! Does anyone really believe that? However, we cannot see into the hearts of others, and we certainly have no way to know how far along a path they are, or where they started.  When we begin pointing fingers, we step off the path ourselves.  I know you’ll disagree with me, but that’s what I believe. I agree with you on this. One thing that has really hit home with me after being in these ng’s for awhile is that we’re all are on a journey, and we’re all at different points in our journey. Whenever I see someone with whom I vehemently disagree, I always have to stop and remind myself that, much as I hate to admit it, I might be wrong, and it probably matters less to God than it does to me.  Jesus said that if someone even gave a cup of water to one of the saints, he would in no way lose his reward.  (I read that to my son, and he immediately went and got me a cup of water.)    I do believe that religion often gets in the way of a true experience of God.  But it’s a step in the right direction, at least most of the time.  It’s not the end of the journey, but it can often be its beginning.    By all means, speak the truth as you know it.  It goads us to examine and move further.    Cordially,    Sunny Thanks for your words. Smokey.

*grin* Myself, I’m not even sure if the occasional bits of enlightenment and entertainment I’ve managed to glean from this newsgroup are worth the rampant stupidity and irritating fanaticism… — Mark -ARK, ASVS, ARCR-C -"Purpose of karate: Make perfect person." – Shihan Fumio Demura Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

Dear DWS, With all due respect, when one begins to differentiate between "true" Christians and false religionists, one becomes part of the problem. There are people, certainly, who call themselves Christians, but whose actions would not indicate to an outside observer that they are anywhere close to that.

Exactly my point. Many people are turned off by bad examples of Christian living. Christians have a huge responsibility in this area. Many Christians, myself included, need to look at the very first word John the Baptist and Jesus himself spoke, "repent!" As far as non-believers go, I wish they could look past the poor examples to see the real truth of what Jesus was saying. I’ve heard people say Hitler was a Christian! Does anyone really believe that? However, we cannot see into the hearts of others, and we certainly have no way to know how far along a path they are, or where they started.  When we begin pointing fingers, we step off the path ourselves.  I know you’ll disagree with me, but that’s what I believe.

I agree with you on this. One thing that has really hit home with me after being in these ng’s for awhile is that we’re all are on a journey, and we’re all at different points in our journey. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Whenever I see someone with whom I vehemently disagree, I always have to stop and remind myself that, much as I hate to admit it, I might be wrong, and it probably matters less to God than it does to me.  Jesus said that if someone even gave a cup of water to one of the saints, he would in no way lose his reward.  (I read that to my son, and he immediately went and got me a cup of water.)    I do believe that religion often gets in the way of a true experience of God.  But it’s a step in the right direction, at least most of the time.  It’s not the end of the journey, but it can often be its beginning.    By all means, speak the truth as you know it.  It goads us to examine and move further.    Cordially,    Sunny

Thanks for your words. Smokey.

Response:

-…are Christians themselves. – -The question for scores of Christians is, do you see it and -what are you going to do about it? – -The question for atheists is, can you look past the scores of -imperfect Christians to see the real truth in it? – -Smokey. " Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried."           –Gilbert K. Chesterton "The Church confesses that she has witnessed the lawless application of brutal force, the physical and spiritual suffering of countless innocent people, oppression, hatred and murder, and that she has not raised her voice on behalf of the victims and has not found ways to hasten to their aid. She is guilty of the deaths of the weakest and most defenseless brothers of Jesus Christ."   – Dietrich  Bonhoeffer ( Ethics ) "The contemporary Church "is so often a weak, ineffectual voice with an uncertain sound.  It is so often the arch-supporter of the status quo. Far from being disturbed by the presence of the Church, the power structure of the average community is consoled by the Church’s silent and often vocal sanction of things as they are. But the judgment of God is upon the Church as never before.  If the Church of today does not recapture the sacrificial spirit of the early Church, it will lose its authentic ring, forfeit the loyalty of millions, and be dismissed as an irrelevant social club with no meaning for the twentieth century." The Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I’m Gay http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Heights/1734 – Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches http://www.ufmcc.com Every 3.6 seconds a real person dies from hunger somewhere in the world!!! Feed a hungry person today: http://www.hungersite.com To send e-mail, remove nohate from address

Response:

Hello, DWS.   I’m afraid we are misunderstanding one another.  The point I’m making is relatively simple.   Religions are patterns established after one who has had a real experience of God.  They are the structure within which others may come, if they so choose, to also experience God.

Understand this; It appears you, as many others, do not understand why the "new and living way" was established by God through Jesus of Nazareth. Only until the time of John the Baptist, dod God speak to mankind through prophets He raised up and gave His Word to. Since the time of Jesus of Nazareth God speaks to man only through the Son each  becomes; the Son of God. 20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22  Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23  And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24  Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25  Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18  Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. 19  Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20  By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21  And having an high priest over the house of God; 22  Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. The religionists continue to follow the abominations of religion, those established by Moses who blinded the people to Truth, and created his own law which is now the religious law not of God, for the law of God requires each of mankind to enter into a relationship with Him as Father and man the Son of God, in and by this new and living way of Spirit, as Jesus of Nazareth taught and gave example. Whosoever does not have the Creation of God within him; the Son of God; does not have God as Father nor Creator nor Teacher. 5  And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6  For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7  If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8  But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. The religionists refuse this way established by God, the way of asking and receiving from God; of seeking and finding as Jesus of Nazareth taught, and turn to their own blind leaders, honoring these who have set themselves up in the place of God as God; the abomination of the desolate; as their fathers which makes the religionists bastards and not Sons of God, for God is not their father and they are the sons of the devil. The people with Moses perished because they refused to hear God. People in this day and hour perish because they refuse to hear God. They do not hear God because they have not sought God nor come to God in the way taught by Jesus of Nazareth but follow the old ways of religion of which Jesus had much to say in comdemning their ways. Undersatnd the following declarations from Jesus of Nazareth was and is directed toward the religionists, in teaching his disciples. 2  Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 3  But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 4  That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. 5  And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6  But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. 7  But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8  Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. 9  After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10  Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11  Give us this day our daily bread. 12  And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13  And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. 14  For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15  But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. 16  Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 17  But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face; 18  That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly. 19  Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: 20  But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 21  For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. 22  The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. 23  But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! 24  No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. 25  Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? 26  Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? 27  Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? 28  And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: 29  And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30  Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? 31  Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? 32  (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33  But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. 34  Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. To all of you who are the religionists, the Roman Catholics, the Baptists, the Lutherans, and all of the many other sects of religions of man. 7  Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8  This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9  But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 10  And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: 11  Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. 12  Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? 13  But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. 14  Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. 15  Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable. 16  And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? 17  Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? 18  But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19  For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20  These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man. 13  But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye

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Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The question for scores of Christians is, do you see it and what are you going to do about it? The question for atheists is, can you look past the scores of imperfect Christians to see the real truth in it? Smokey. As a Christian….Catholic one..I see one thing that categorizes both "groups" you speak of. That would be "Imperfection" "God only knows……and He aint talkin’ " God only knows……and He doesn’t exist. How can you be so sure??? If the Xian god existed he would be throwing hissy fits as he does in the OT, strangely enough he’s very absent from world events. Or has he become more subtle with age?

That’s my theory, anyway. Some have called the NT the ultimate proof that having a kid really DOES cause you to melllow out. — Mark -ARK, ASVS, ARCR-C -"Purpose of karate: Make perfect person." – Shihan Fumio Demura Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

Hello son of perdition. How does it feel to know your time is short? Without you and your kind, the world will be a much better place. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We; the Sons of God;  are able to discern the very heart and thoughts of another. Vanity!  Plain old ugly vanity.  But I realize now why you worship like you do.  You are pulled by the delusions of grandeur, especially that you are better than those that do not share your view.  At the core of this, I’m sure that it’s because you have grown up having low self esteem and very little confidence in yourself.  I hope your faith does ease your suffering, but don’t shut your eyes to the possibility that it might be an illusion, an easy way out.  Perhaps it’s a lesson presented to you in a bigger journey you may not be aware of. psi In your light I learn how to love. In your beauty, how to make poems. You dance inside my chest, where no one sees you, but sometimes I do, and that sight becomes this art"                                  -Rumi Live fast!  Be a spark and glow a while!  You’ll be dead a long, long time!  - Bob Geldof

Son of God The things of God knoweth no man, but him who is the Spirit of God. You are they who justify yourselves before men; but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

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Hello, DWS.    I’m afraid we are misunderstanding one another.  The point I’m making is relatively simple.    Religions are patterns established after one who has had a real experience of God.  They are the structure within which others may come, if they so choose, to also experience God.    I do not worship as a Jew, nor comprehend everything they do in their worship.  However, in a synagogue, I understand that the same God they are seeking is the same one I am seeking, and I honor their commitment to tenaciously remembering and holding up the origin of their (my) faith.    I do not worship as a Catholic, nor do I comprehend everything they do in their worship.  However, in a cathedral, I understand that the same God they are seeking is the same one I am seeking, and I honor the fact that, without 2000 years of incorporation into a well organized government system, I would likely have no idea at all of a Bible, or any historical basis for my faith.    I do not worship as a Lutheran, nor do I comprehend everything they do in their worship.  However, in a Lutheran church, I understand that the same God they are seeking is the same one I am seeking, and I honor the fact that, without Martin Luther, the Bible might well still be printed in Latin, with only priests to give me interpretation, and I might think that the way to heaven was the buying of indulgences.    I do not worship as an Anglican, although I do have a little better comprehension of their worship practices.  When I am in an Anglican (or Episcopal) church, I understand that the same God they are seeking is the same one I am seeking.  I honor King James, and his mother, Elizabeth, and his grandfather, King Henry, because they (for political/human reasons) unified a nation divided by religious strife, incorporating it all under one government.    I hold a Bible in my hand today because of the history of these "religions".  What I choose to do with it is up to me.  And you, DWS, also have access to the word of God because the structure, the "religion", has kept the essential word in the world.    I do believe that the way to God does not stop at church.  But church is a very good place to start, even more so if you *don’t* agree with their doctrine, and that pushes you to discover the truth for yourself.    Kindest regards,    Sunny    I know you don’t agree with the Jewish faith.  However, they * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The question for scores of Christians is, do you see it and what are you going to do about it? The question for atheists is, can you look past the scores of imperfect Christians to see the real truth in it? Smokey. As a Christian….Catholic one..I see one thing that categorizes both "groups" you speak of. That would be "Imperfection" "God only knows……and He aint talkin’ " God only knows……and He doesn’t exist. How can you be so sure???

If the Xian god existed he would be throwing hissy fits as he does in the OT, strangely enough he’s very absent from world events. Or has he become more subtle with age?

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"God only knows……and He aint talkin’ " God only knows……and He doesn’t exist. Prove it.

Can you prove he does?…..Nope. Can you disprove the existence of invisible pink unicorns? — Dobbin Good and evil, and joy and woe, and I and thou – coloured vapours did they seem to me before creative eyes.  – Friedrich Nietzsche —

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …are Christians themselves. The question for scores of Christians is, do you see it and what are you going to do about it? The question for atheists is, can you look past the scores of imperfect Christians to see the real truth in it? Smokey. As a Christian….Catholic one..I see one thing that categorizes both "groups" you speak of. That would be "Imperfection" "God only knows……and He aint talkin’ " God only knows……and He doesn’t exist. Prove it.

If god exists he’ll strike you dead right now… There, it’s proven.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The question for scores of Christians is, do you see it and what are you going to do about it? The question for atheists is, can you look past the scores of imperfect Christians to see the real truth in it? Smokey. As a Christian….Catholic one..I see one thing that categorizes both "groups" you speak of. That would be "Imperfection" "God only knows……and He aint talkin’ " God only knows……and He doesn’t exist.

How can you be so sure???                    -   David Glenn Misner   –                                Hemet     CA     USA            http://www.calweb.com/~yodare/david.html                 Sign up for paypal right here    https://secure.paypal.com/refer/pal=excalibur%40reborn.com

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …are Christians themselves. The question for scores of Christians is, do you see it and what are you going to do about it? The question for atheists is, can you look past the scores of imperfect Christians to see the real truth in it? Smokey. As a Christian….Catholic one..I see one thing that categorizes both "groups" you speak of. That would be "Imperfection" "God only knows……and He aint talkin’ " God only knows……and He doesn’t exist.

Prove it. -Jazs — ***Compulsive Destruction*** promote/find bands. contact me to have yours added http://homepages.go.com/~compdest/ Before you buy.

Before you buy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear DWS, With all due respect, when one begins to differentiate between "true" Christians and false religionists, one becomes part of the problem. There are people, certainly, who call themselves Christians, but whose actions would not indicate to an outside observer that they are anywhere close to that.  However, we cannot see into the hearts of others, and we certainly have no way to know how far along a path they are, or where they started.  When we begin pointing fingers, we step off the path ourselves.  I know you’ll disagree with me, but that’s what I believe. Whenever I see someone with whom I vehemently disagree, I always have to stop and remind myself that, much as I hate to admit it, I might be wrong, and it probably matters less to God than it does to me.  Jesus said that if someone even gave a cup of water to one of the saints, he would in no way lose his reward.  (I read that to my son, and he immediately went and got me a cup of water.)   I do believe that religion often gets in the way of a true experience of God.  But it’s a step in the right direction, at least most of the time.  It’s not the end of the journey, but it can often be its beginning.   By all means, speak the truth as you know it.  It goads us to examine and move further.   Cordially,   Sunny * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

I was beginning to reply as you did to dw, Sunny, and I read your reply.  I couldn’t possibly have put it any better than you did!  Thank you for your inspiring words. psi In your light I learn how to love. In your beauty, how to make poems. You dance inside my chest, where no one sees you, but sometimes I do, and that sight becomes this art"                                   -Rumi Live fast!  Be a spark and glow a while!  You’ll be dead a long, long time!  - Bob Geldof

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We; the Sons of God;  are able to discern the very heart and thoughts of another.

Vanity!  Plain old ugly vanity.  But I realize now why you worship like you do.  You are pulled by the delusions of grandeur, especially that you are better than those that do not share your view.  At the core of this, I’m sure that it’s because you have grown up having low self esteem and very little confidence in yourself.  I hope your faith does ease your suffering, but don’t shut your eyes to the possibility that it might be an illusion, an easy way out.  Perhaps it’s a lesson presented to you in a bigger journey you may not be aware of. psi In your light I learn how to love. In your beauty, how to make poems. You dance inside my chest, where no one sees you, but sometimes I do, and that sight becomes this art"                                   -Rumi Live fast!  Be a spark and glow a while!  You’ll be dead a long, long time!  - Bob Geldof

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"Smokey"  wrote …are Christians themselves. The question for scores of Christians is, do you see it and what are you going to do about it?

+ What a strange statement…. + The best proof against cars are buicks. + The best proof against morals is morality itself. + The best proof against humanity is humans themselves… + You’ll have to be a little more specific here, bubba.

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Dear DWS, With all due respect, when one begins to differentiate between "true" Christians and false religionists, one becomes part of the problem.

I see. You say Jesus of Nazareth and the other Sons of God are part of the problem. Explain why you say this. There are people, certainly, who call themselves Christians, but whose actions would not indicate to an outside observer that they are anywhere close to that.  However, we cannot see into the hearts of others, and we certainly have no way to know how far along a path they are, or where they started.  

We; the Sons of God;  are able to discern the very heart and thoughts of another. When we begin pointing fingers, we step off the path ourselves.  I know you’ll disagree with me, but that’s what I believe.

Pointing fingers is one matter, speaking truth is another matter entirely. Whenever I see someone with whom I vehemently disagree, I always have to stop and remind myself that, much as I hate to admit it, I might be wrong, and it probably matters less to God than it does to me.

Learn Truth from the Liivng God and remove this fear and doubt. Jesus said that if someone even gave a cup of water to one of the saints, he would in no way lose his reward.  (I read that to my son, and he immediately went and got me a cup of water.)

Giving "water" is to give a word and a teaching.   I do believe that religion often gets in the way of a true experience of God.  But it’s a step in the right direction, at least most of the time.  It’s not the end of the journey, but it can often be its beginning.

Not so. By deception man is captured and held in fasle religious doctrines of man, therein, refusing the Truth of God when it is spoken. Why? Becasue they have been taught to honor and worship the god of this world who has blinded them; the religionists, of Moses whose followers remain blind to truth of God becasue of the veil placed on scriptures by Moses. Judaism is the law created by Moses which is not of God. False Christianity has incorporated this same law into their religion.   By all means, speak the truth as you know it.  It goads us to examine and move further.   Cordially,   Sunny

Thank you Sunny, I shall and even deeper truths which will be very difficult for any to understand unless they have really studied the wordage of scripture, knowing what metaphors and figures of speech refer to. Unless any study and meditate on the word and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, thereby choosing to enter into the way he taught and therein receiving knowledge and understanding from God, he shall never know the Truth of God for this Truth comes only from the Living God. Understand, unless man possesses this Truth from God he cannot know what is Truth of God and what is not, and is unable to rightfully divide the word or the "waters" of others of mankind. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Son of God The things of God knoweth no man, but him who is the Spirit of God. You are they who justify yourselves before men; but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Response:

…are Christians themselves. The question for scores of Christians is, do you see it and what are you going to do about it? The question for atheists is, can you look past the scores of imperfect Christians to see the real truth in it? Smokey.

Smokey, please differentiate between true Christians and the religionists who have placed this name on their selves, being unworthy of this name. Son of God The things of God knoweth no man, but him who is the Spirit of God. You are they who justify yourselves before men; but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Response:

Dear DWS, With all due respect, when one begins to differentiate between "true" Christians and false religionists, one becomes part of the problem. There are people, certainly, who call themselves Christians, but whose actions would not indicate to an outside observer that they are anywhere close to that.  However, we cannot see into the hearts of others, and we certainly have no way to know how far along a path they are, or where they started.  When we begin pointing fingers, we step off the path ourselves.  I know you’ll disagree with me, but that’s what I believe. Whenever I see someone with whom I vehemently disagree, I always have to stop and remind myself that, much as I hate to admit it, I might be wrong, and it probably matters less to God than it does to me.  Jesus said that if someone even gave a cup of water to one of the saints, he would in no way lose his reward.  (I read that to my son, and he immediately went and got me a cup of water.)    I do believe that religion often gets in the way of a true experience of God.  But it’s a step in the right direction, at least most of the time.  It’s not the end of the journey, but it can often be its beginning.    By all means, speak the truth as you know it.  It goads us to examine and move further.    Cordially,    Sunny * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …are Christians themselves. The question for scores of Christians is, do you see it and what are you going to do about it? The question for atheists is, can you look past the scores of imperfect Christians to see the real truth in it? Smokey. As a Christian….Catholic one..I see one thing that categorizes both "groups" you speak of. That would be "Imperfection" "God only knows……and He aint talkin’ "

God only knows……and He doesn’t exist. — ***Compulsive Destruction*** promote/find bands. contact me to have yours added http://homepages.go.com/~compdest/ Before you buy.

Response:

…are Christians themselves. The question for scores of Christians is, do you see it and what are you going to do about it? The question for atheists is, can you look past the scores of imperfect Christians to see the real truth in it? Smokey.

Response:

…are Christians themselves. The question for scores of Christians is, do you see it and what are you going to do about it? The question for atheists is, can you look past the scores of imperfect Christians to see the real truth in it? Smokey.

As a Christian….Catholic one..I see one thing that categorizes both "groups" you speak of. That would be "Imperfection" "God only knows……and He aint talkin’ " David Lee Roth – Skyscraper Before you buy.

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