Christianity QA

Question:

The person asking was catholic, and doesn’t subscribe to your protty "bible alone" unbiblical theory anyway.

This was sweet of you to say, I was wondering if you would like to be on our ecumenical committee

Response:

Read what you write first! So even if NOTHING was mentioned in the bible, it wouldn’t matter, because, unlike you, we are biblical and don’t do "roll your own" doctrine." "Even if it’s not in the Bible, we are biblical"! Does not make sens!

The words "Bible" and "Trinity" are not in the Bible therefore using your twisted logic there is no such thing as the "Bible" or the "Trinity"? Plus the following Protestant phrases that are not in the "Bible" Age of Accountability Total Depravity of Man Personal Lord and Saviour Ask Jesus into your Heart The Rapture Invisible Church Folding your Hands, Bowing your Head "Personal Relationship with Christ" Accepting Christ as Lord and Savior Enthroning the Bible in your Heart Limited Atonement Altar Call Dedication; Rededication Giving your Life to the Lord Revival Inerrancy Eternal Security Denominations Sola Scriptura Devotions Missionary Wedding rings Full-time Ministry Church as a building when we see the early believers meeting in private homes. "Righteousness of Christ" (phrase never found in the New Testament) Jim Carew sfo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Care to give Scripture? : : Colly There is some in Maccabbees, and also spoken of in the epistles. How many times do we have to paint by numbers for you? The person asking was catholic, and doesn’t subscribe to your protty "bible alone" unbiblical theory anyway. So even if NOTHING was mentioned in the bible, it wouldn’t matter, because, unlike you, we are biblical and don’t do "roll your own" doctrine. Karen

Response:

: : I’m perfect through the Blood of Christ. He took away ALL MY SINS! All I : have to do to get saved is to be alive, to be a "born again" christian (God : is not the God of the dead)! : : So you can sin all you want between now and your death, because Jesus has : already saved you. That’s rich. I know.  Pretty pathetic really!  I doubt if MOST decent protestants this hardcore group that likes to prance around as if their own individual sins mean nothing and they don’t need to be personally responsible for them!  Those are the scary people.  "Oh, God died for my sins already, so it’s okay to knock over Mrs. Chen and take her cash—I believe is Jezus—I’m still "saved." Karen

Response:

I like your argument but tell me then why do some get out early just because they wore a special medal or others because of the extra alms? Doesn’t sound like the fair and just punishment the OT talks about. Unfortunately I still sit confused.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Christ died that we might achieve full reconciliation with God. But ever since the days of Adam, mankind has sinned. Paul has some well-known passages to that effect. The effect of our sinful natures (concupiscense) is that we are always striving for perfection. We are always striving to avoid temptation. But we fail in big and little ways all the time. So, most of the time, we are not in a state of perfection. And the Bible says nothing imperfect can enter the presence of God. So there is a problem. We are imperfect, yet we must be perfect to enjoy the company of God in Heaven that Christ promised us through His death. How do we do this? We undergo a process of purification after death, before we enter Heaven. In this purification we are purged of our sins. Hence purgatory. Sure, Christ died that we might get into Heaven. His death is "good enough". The point is we have to be good enough, too, to get there. HTH Steve Yes I am a Catholic and I am sorry this is painting by numbers here but I have a serious problem here. I read the bible, I pray that God will open it up to me.  I pray that the Holy Spirit will lead me.  I still haven’t found an answer to my question about Purgatory.  I mean why did Christ die if it wasn’t good enough? We all sin.  It doesn’t mean that I can freely continue on sinning but if the realization leads me to repentance.  All the better. I have to say though that from the sound of the way you all flame each other you are each serving a different Christ then the one I have come to know and Love. : Care to give Scripture? : : Colly There is some in Maccabbees, and also spoken of in the epistles. How many times do we have to paint by numbers for you? The person asking was catholic, and doesn’t subscribe to your protty "bible alone" unbiblical theory anyway. So even if NOTHING was mentioned in the bible, it wouldn’t matter, because, unlike you, we are biblical and don’t do "roll your own" doctrine. Karen

Response:

I’m perfect through the Blood of Christ. He took away ALL MY SINS! All I have to do to get saved is to be alive, to be a "born again" christian

Wrong, read James sometime, the only book in the Bible where ‘faith alone’ appears, it says faith alone will NOT save you. (God is not the God of the dead)!

Colly, you have been arguing in other postings that the saints are dead, are you being dishonest, or are you that stupid? Mt 12:36 36 I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; 1 Cor 3:15 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. Read "Will be saved" after the judgemnent day! 1 Cor 3:14-15 (KJV)14 " If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." By these verses everybody will have to go through that "fire", even Mary.

Fantastic, you now believe in purgatory, it’s just the timeline we disagree on!!! One of the clearest verses about purgatory, we certainly cannot suffer any loss in Heaven, but the verse says we shall be saved by this ‘fire’. Hell doesn’t save us. Are you going to tell me this doesn’t *suggest*

purgatory? No. It’s the judgement day

That it correct, the day you die, is judgment day!!! — Rhett "For myself, I would not believe the Gospel were it not for the Authority of the Catholic Church!" (St. Augustine)

Response:

Christ died that we might achieve full reconciliation with God. But ever since the days of Adam, mankind has sinned. Paul has some well-known passages to that effect. The effect of our sinful natures (concupiscense) is that we are always striving for perfection. We are always striving to avoid temptation. But we fail in big and little ways all the time. So, most of the time, we are not in a state of perfection. And the Bible says nothing imperfect can enter the presence of God. So there is a problem. We are imperfect, yet we must be perfect to enjoy the company of God in Heaven that Christ promised us through His death. How do we do this? We undergo a process of purification after death, before we enter Heaven. In this purification we are purged of our sins. Hence purgatory. Sure, Christ died that we might get into Heaven. His death is "good enough". The point is we have to be good enough, too, to get there. HTH Steve

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes I am a Catholic and I am sorry this is painting by numbers here but I have a serious problem here. I read the bible, I pray that God will open it up to me.  I pray that the Holy Spirit will lead me.  I still haven’t found an answer to my question about Purgatory.  I mean why did Christ die if it wasn’t good enough?  We all sin.  It doesn’t mean that I can freely continue on sinning but if the realization leads me to repentance.  All the better. I have to say though that from the sound of the way you all flame each other you are each serving a different Christ then the one I have come to know and Love. : Care to give Scripture? : : Colly There is some in Maccabbees, and also spoken of in the epistles. How many times do we have to paint by numbers for you? The person asking was catholic, and doesn’t subscribe to your protty "bible alone" unbiblical theory anyway. So even if NOTHING was mentioned in the bible, it wouldn’t matter, because, unlike you, we are biblical and don’t do "roll your own" doctrine. Karen

Response:

Just wondering.  Why purgatory.  I was raised catholic and went to catholic schools for K-12.  Still can’t get a solid answer as to what Purgatory is all about.  I read the Bible and it just doesn’t seem to suggest it.  Any help? — Timothy Hewitt

2 Maccabees, 12:43-46 He then took up a collection amoung all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice.  In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.  But he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it wa a holy and pious thought.  Thus, he made atonement for the dead, that they might be freed from this sin.

Response:

My point in the fact that the bible is given by the Jews would be the point that the entire OT was Jewish and the NT is primarily (80% or so) a restatement of the OT. I guess my problem here is that I do not see in the original Jewish texts that suggest purgatory.  I also see nothing in Christ’s teachings about Purgatory. What I  see throughout the bible is the point that we were created by God in his perfect image.  When Sin entered we distorted that image.  God sent down his Law so that all might be saved.  This Law pointed man to his own imperfections and the need for a messiah.  God through his love for us sent that messiah.  As predicted many hearts were still hardened and wouldn’t believe.  This Messiah Jesus brought to us the opportunity to be cleansed from our sins.  He came to this earth for that very purpose. To suggest that he didn’t complete his work thus we need more refining as if the Death of God himself wasn’t good enough I feel mocks there very God we serve.  Especial since for many years purgatory was a place that you bought your way out of.  through indulgences, wearing special medals, praying to special people. I get from your post to me that you feel that I am a bad Catholic for not jumping onto the purgatory bandwagon.  Well I guess you will be even more concerned when I tell you that I do not get the high Stance of Mary.  Yes I respect her but she carries no more weight than I a mere man.  I do not believe in celebrate priests.  I feel it has kept many fantastic men out of serving their Vocation.  And has caused thousands to make an abomination of their vocation.  I do not believe in the Petrine succession of Popes to John Paul.  Yes I believe that Peter was Leader and there was a succession but there are a few hundred years in there where the Roman part of Catholiscm wasn’t around. And I do not believe that the books of the apocrypha are divine scripture. By the post I have read in here many would suggest that I am going to hell or spend tons of time in purgatory for thoughts like this.  But understand I am only going against what imperfect men have laid down. What I do believe come from the truth. I believe in God the Father.  That he created everything I believe that sin entered the world through the disobedience of Adam and Eve I believe In Jesus Christ.  That he was God made man and he came so that we could follow him to heaven I believe Jesus was born of a virgin I believe that by faith all who profess Christ as Salvation will receive it I believe salvation comes from Grace not from works I believe that I must live my life in obedience to the will of the Father I believe my prayers are given directly to God and need no intercessor. I believe I will enter the very gates of heaven based on my faith is a loving, merciful, Faithful Father. And that Christ purchased my seat in heaven by his death on the cross. Not by what doctrines I believe out side of

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually I don’t believe in purgatory. Too bad for you. It’s existence doesn’t depend on your belief. In the study of history and the Bible (god gave it to us through the Jews.) Which history book told you the Jews gave us the New Testament? I can find nothing that to me suggests purgatory. The JW’s say the same thing about the Trinity. But you say you can find nothing in the Bible or history that even *suggests* purgatory. Let’s see if that is really the case or if you made up your mind about purgatory, before even looking for it. Bible passages that sugest purgatory: 2 Sam 12:13,14 13 David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14 Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child that is born to you shall die." God forgave the sin of David, but Justice still required he pe punished. 2 Macc 12:44-46 44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. Judas Maccabee made atonement for the dead, if they were in Heaven or Hell, this would be usless. Mt 5:48 48 You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. God requires that we be perfect. Are you perfect Tim? Rev 21:27 27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life. Nothing unclean will enter Heaven Tim, that means we won’t sin. God must effect a change in us. Mt 5:26 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny. This is a kingdom parable, I don’t think Heaven can be compared to a prison and no one gets out of hell, so it must be a third state. Mt 12:32 32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. Mt 12:36 36 I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; 1 Cor 3:15 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. One of the clearest verses about purgatory, we certainly cannot suffer any loss in Heaven, but the verse says we shall be saved by this ‘fire’. Hell doesn’t save us. Are you going to tell me this doesn’t *suggest* purgatory? Now for some history. It would be useless for us to pray for someone who is in Heaven or in hell, yet the early church was very concerned that we pray for the dead. Look at the first 300 years of Christianity and realize you reject a teaching believed by ALL Christians until the 16th Century when many began following the traditions of men. (Quotes from the Church fathers courtesy of Catholic Answers.) The Acts of Paul and Thecla "And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again received her [Thecla]. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: ‘Mother, you shall have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the righteous’" (Acts of Paul and Thecla [A.D. 160]). Abercius "The citizen of a prominent city, I erected this while I lived, that I might have a resting place for my body. Abercius is my name, a disciple of the chaste shepherd who feeds his sheep on the mountains and in the fields, who has great eyes surveying everywhere, who taught me the faithful writings of life. Standing by, I, Abercius, ordered this to be inscribed; truly I was in my seventy-second year. May everyone who is in accord with this and who understands it pray for Abercius" (Epitaph of Abercius [A.D. 190]). Perpetua "[T]hat very night, this was shown to me in a vision: I saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid color, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age, who died miserably with disease . . . For him I had made my prayer, and between him and me there was a large interval, so that neither of us could approach to the other. . . . and [I] knew that my brother was in suffering. But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp?show. Then . . . I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me. I saw that that place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. . . . [And] he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment" (The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity 2:3-4 [A.D. 202]). Tertullian "[T]hat allegory of the Lord [Matt. 5:25-26] . . . is extremely clear and simple in its meaning . . . [beware lest as] a transgressor of your agreement, before God the Judge . . . and lest this Judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation?" (The Soul 35 [A.D. 210]). Tertullian "A woman, after the death of her husband … prays for his soul and asks that he may, while waiting, find rest; and that he may share in the first resurrection. And each year, on the anniversary of his death, she offers the sacrifice" (Monogamy 10:1-2 [A.D. 216]). Cyprian of Carthage "The strength of the truly believing remains unshaken; and with those who fear and love God with their whole heart, their integrity continues steady and strong. For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace [i.e., reconciliation] is given. Yet virginity is not therefore deficient in the Church, nor does the glorious design of continence languish through the sins of others. The Church, crowned with so many virgins, flourishes; and chastity and modesty preserve the tenor of their

… read more »

Response:

Plus what? You’re going to make others more sinful than you are? Luke 18:11 "The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican."

Jim Carew sfo

Response:

I’m perfect through the Blood of Christ. He took away ALL MY SINS! All I have to do to get saved is to be alive, to be a "born again" christian (God is not the God of the dead)! So you can sin all you want between now and your death, because Jesus has already saved you. That’s rich.

Read Romans 6:1-18  and then comment. 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2  God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7  For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8  Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9  Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10  For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11  Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12  Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13  Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14  For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15  What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17  But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18  Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Response:

I’m perfect through the Blood of Christ. He took away ALL MY SINS! All I have to do to get saved is to be alive, to be a "born again" christian (God is not the God of the dead)! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually I don’t believe in purgatory. Too bad for you. It’s existence doesn’t depend on your belief. In the study of history and the Bible (god gave it to us through the Jews.) Which history book told you the Jews gave us the New Testament? I can find nothing that to me suggests purgatory. The JW’s say the same thing about the Trinity. But you say you can find nothing in the Bible or history that even *suggests* purgatory. Let’s see if that is really the case or if you made up your mind about purgatory, before even looking for it. Bible passages that sugest purgatory: 2 Sam 12:13,14 13 David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14 Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child that is born to you shall die." God forgave the sin of David, but Justice still required he pe punished. 2 Macc 12:44-46 44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. Judas Maccabee made atonement for the dead, if they were in Heaven or Hell, this would be usless. Mt 5:48 48 You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. God requires that we be perfect. Are you perfect Tim? Rev 21:27 27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life. Nothing unclean will enter Heaven Tim, that means we won’t sin. God must effect a change in us. Mt 5:26 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny. This is a kingdom parable, I don’t think Heaven can be compared to a prison and no one gets out of hell, so it must be a third state.

Wrong. It’s an earthly example to make us undrestand that we have to be 100% submitted to God! Mt 12:32 32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Mt 12:36 36 I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; 1 Cor 3:15 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Read "Will be saved" after the judgemnent day! 1 Cor 3:14-15 (KJV)14 " If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." By these verses everybody will have to go through that "fire", even Mary. One of the clearest verses about purgatory, we certainly cannot suffer any loss in Heaven, but the verse says we shall be saved by this ‘fire’. Hell doesn’t save us. Are you going to tell me this doesn’t *suggest* purgatory?

No. It’s the judgement day

Response:

Read what you write first! So even if NOTHING was mentioned in the bible, it wouldn’t matter, because, unlike you, we are biblical and don’t do "roll your own" doctrine." "Even if it’s not in the Bible, we are biblical"! Does not make sens! The words "Bible" and "Trinity" are not in the Bible therefore using your twisted logic there is no such thing as the "Bible" or the "Trinity"? Plus the following Protestant phrases that are not in the "Bible"

Plus what? You’re going to make others more sinful than you are? Luke 18:11 "The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican."

Response:

Actually I don’t believe in purgatory. In the study of history and the Bible (god gave it to us through the Jews.) I can find nothing that to me suggests purgatory.

You’re right, it’s not in the Bible. Not even the orthodox church (the so called rc sister) believe in purgatory! But I guess to believe in it you have to totally submit to rc (only if rc believers believe that rc is above Bible, then rc can come up with nonbilblical purgatory).

Response:

Read what you write first! So even if NOTHING was mentioned in the bible, it wouldn’t matter, because, unlike you, we are biblical and don’t do "roll your own" doctrine."

"Even if it’s not in the Bible, we are biblical"! Does not make sens! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Care to give Scripture? : : Colly There is some in Maccabbees, and also spoken of in the epistles. How many times do we have to paint by numbers for you? The person asking was catholic, and doesn’t subscribe to your protty "bible alone" unbiblical theory anyway. So even if NOTHING was mentioned in the bible, it wouldn’t matter, because, unlike you, we are biblical and don’t do "roll your own" doctrine. Karen

Response:

Actually I don’t believe in purgatory.

Too bad for you. It’s existence doesn’t depend on your belief. In the study of history and the Bible (god gave it to us through the

Jews.) Which history book told you the Jews gave us the New Testament? I can find nothing that to me suggests purgatory.

The JW’s say the same thing about the Trinity. But you say you can find nothing in the Bible or history that even *suggests* purgatory. Let’s see if that is really the case or if you made up your mind about purgatory, before even looking for it. Bible passages that sugest purgatory: 2 Sam 12:13,14 13 David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14 Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child that is born to you shall die." God forgave the sin of David, but Justice still required he pe punished. 2 Macc 12:44-46 44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. Judas Maccabee made atonement for the dead, if they were in Heaven or Hell, this would be usless. Mt 5:48 48 You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. God requires that we be perfect. Are you perfect Tim? Rev 21:27 27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life. Nothing unclean will enter Heaven Tim, that means we won’t sin. God must effect a change in us. Mt 5:26 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny. This is a kingdom parable, I don’t think Heaven can be compared to a prison and no one gets out of hell, so it must be a third state. Mt 12:32 32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. Mt 12:36 36 I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; 1 Cor 3:15 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. One of the clearest verses about purgatory, we certainly cannot suffer any loss in Heaven, but the verse says we shall be saved by this ‘fire’. Hell doesn’t save us. Are you going to tell me this doesn’t *suggest* purgatory? Now for some history. It would be useless for us to pray for someone who is in Heaven or in hell, yet the early church was very concerned that we pray for the dead. Look at the first 300 years of Christianity and realize you reject a teaching believed by ALL Christians until the 16th Century when many began following the traditions of men. (Quotes from the Church fathers courtesy of Catholic Answers.) The Acts of Paul and Thecla "And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again received her [Thecla]. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: ‘Mother, you shall have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the righteous’" (Acts of Paul and Thecla [A.D. 160]). Abercius "The citizen of a prominent city, I erected this while I lived, that I might have a resting place for my body. Abercius is my name, a disciple of the chaste shepherd who feeds his sheep on the mountains and in the fields, who has great eyes surveying everywhere, who taught me the faithful writings of life. Standing by, I, Abercius, ordered this to be inscribed; truly I was in my seventy-second year. May everyone who is in accord with this and who understands it pray for Abercius" (Epitaph of Abercius [A.D. 190]). Perpetua "[T]hat very night, this was shown to me in a vision: I saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid color, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age, who died miserably with disease . . . For him I had made my prayer, and between him and me there was a large interval, so that neither of us could approach to the other. . . . and [I] knew that my brother was in suffering. But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp?show. Then . . . I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me. I saw that that place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. . . . [And] he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment" (The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity 2:3-4 [A.D. 202]). Tertullian "[T]hat allegory of the Lord [Matt. 5:25-26] . . . is extremely clear and simple in its meaning . . . [beware lest as] a transgressor of your agreement, before God the Judge . . . and lest this Judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation?" (The Soul 35 [A.D. 210]). Tertullian "A woman, after the death of her husband … prays for his soul and asks that he may, while waiting, find rest; and that he may share in the first resurrection. And each year, on the anniversary of his death, she offers the sacrifice" (Monogamy 10:1-2 [A.D. 216]). Cyprian of Carthage "The strength of the truly believing remains unshaken; and with those who fear and love God with their whole heart, their integrity continues steady and strong. For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace [i.e., reconciliation] is given. Yet virginity is not therefore deficient in the Church, nor does the glorious design of continence languish through the sins of others. The Church, crowned with so many virgins, flourishes; and chastity and modesty preserve the tenor of their glory. Nor is the vigor of continence broken down because repentance and pardon are facilitated to the adulterer. It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord." (Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]). Lactantius "But also, when God will judge the just, it is likewise in fire that he will try them. At that time, they whose sins are uppermost, either because of their gravity or their number, will be drawn together by the fire and will be burned. Those, however, who have been imbued with full justice and maturity of virtue, will not feel that fire; for they have something of God in them which will repel and turn back the strength of the flame" (Divine Institutes 7:21:6 [A.D. 307]). Cyril of Jerusalem "Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition; next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep, for we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn sacrifice is laid out" (Catechetical Lectures 23:5:9 [A.D. 350]). Gregory of Nyssa "If a man distinguish in himself what is peculiarly human from that which is irrational, and if he be on the watch for a life of greater urbanity for himself, in this present life he will purify himself of any evil contracted, overcoming the irrational by reason. If he have inclined to the irrational pressure of the passions, using for the passions the cooperating hide of things irrational, he may afterward in a quite different manner be very much interested in what is better, when, after his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire" (Sermon on the Dead [A.D. 382]). John Chrysostom "Weep for those who die in their wealth and who with all their wealth prepared no consolation for their own souls, who had the power to wash away their sins and did not will to do it. Let us weep for them, let us assist them to the extant of our ability, let us think of some assistance for them, small as it may be, yet let us somehow assist them. But how, and in what way? By praying for them and by entreating others to pray for them, by constantly giving alms to the poor on their behalf. Not in vain was it decreed by the apostles that in the awesome mysteries remembrance should be made of the departed. They knew that here there was much gain for them, much benefit. when the entire people stands with hands uplifted, a priestly assembly, and that awesome … read more »

Response:

: Care to give Scripture? : : Colly There is some in Maccabbees, and also spoken of in the epistles. How many times do we have to paint by numbers for you? The person asking was catholic, and doesn’t subscribe to your protty "bible alone" unbiblical theory anyway. So even if NOTHING was mentioned in the bible, it wouldn’t matter, because, unlike you, we are biblical and don’t do "roll your own" doctrine. Karen

Response:

Actually I don’t believe in purgatory. In the study of history and the Bible (god gave it to us through the Jews.) I can find nothing that to me suggests purgatory.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes I am a Catholic and I am sorry this is painting by numbers here but I have a serious problem here. I read the bible, I pray that God will open it up to me.  I pray that the Holy Spirit will lead me. 28,000 Christian denominations claim to be led by the Holy Spirit, and they all contradict each other on various points of doctrine, the sad fruit of the Protestant revolt should convince you that it isn’t enough. Read the Bible in light of the teachings of the catholic Church, the same Church that gave us the Bible. I still haven’t found an answer to my question about Purgatory.  I mean why did Christ die if it wasn’t good enough? We all sin.  It doesn’t mean that I can freely continue on sinning but if the realization leads me to repentance.  All the better. Tim, you already believe in purgatory … you sin now, but you won’t sin in heaven, therefore BECAUSE Christ died for us, God will cause a change in us, a change so profound that no sin will be found in us…THAT is purgatory, forget all the medieval crap that was believed by most people but never taught in the Church. The Church teaches only three things about purgatory, (1)that it exist, (2)that those who need to be purified will be, and (3)that our prayers can help them. That’s it! That is the sum of official Catholic teaching. — Rhett "For myself, I would not believe the Gospel were it not for the Authority of the Catholic Church!" (St. Augustine)

Response:

Just wondering.  Why purgatory.  I was raised catholic and went to catholic schools for K-12.  Still can’t get a solid answer as to what Purgatory is all about.  I read the Bible and it just doesn’t seem to suggest it.  Any help? — Timothy Hewitt

The Church teaches that sin (in the generic sense) has two different types of consequences: temporal punishment and eternal punishment. Easier to understand is eternal punishment, the consequence of offending the Divine. God being infinitely just, we cannot hope as human beings to "make up" for our sins, as it would require infinite reparation impossible for finite beings; thus, our sin results (or better, demands) eternal separation from the Beatific Vision – the state of being in the presence of God. It is the Merits of the Cross, the graces that Christ earned for us by his death as the final and complete Paschal sacrifice, that make it possible for us to share in the Divine life as members of the Body of Christ. Specifically, unmerited (by us) sanctifying grace, as received in the Sacraments of Baptism and Reconciliation, remits the guilt, and thus eternal punishment, for mortal sins. In that sense, Catholics completely agree with Protestants when stating that salvation is unmerited and is the free gift of God alone – salvation by grace alone through faith alone. Sanctifying grace is never earned, rather it is received by those who listen, have confidence, and obey the Word of God – St. Paul’s formula for _faith_. In a normative sense, this grace is received through the sacraments of the Church by those living their faith as members of the Church. However, through knowledge of God’s mercy and his omniscience concerning our interior will, it is possible to understand perfect contrition (true sorrow for sin, not out of fear of consequence but rather for offending God) as sufficient for the remission of eternal punishment when it is accompanied by intent to make a confession ASAP, or when the sinner is invincibly ignorant of Christ’s Gospel and the existence of His Church (NOTE: in any case the Church teaches that it is by God’s grace alone, merited for us by Christ, that sins are forgiven and eternal punishment remitted). Temporal punishment is best understood by analogy. If I break my neighbors window, he may forgive me – that is he may forgive the offense, not hold a grudge, etc. – but I still owe a debt to repair the immediate damage done. In other words, he needs his window fixed. With sin, the resulting temporal disorder is both interior and exterior – a murder causes grave sorrow for the murdered’s relatives and it also "sickens the soul" of the murderer, likely making him more callous (or indicating callousness) to the dignity of his neighbor. Justice demands compensation for the offense committed. While a murderer cannot raise the dead, a repentant thief should replace or compensate for the property stolen if possible. On the other hand, a legitimate government may exact compensation through a penal system. In any case, reparation for the external temporal effects of sin is not necessary for eternal salvation. Interior temporal disorder is best generalized as personal attachment to sin. As Christians we are called to imitate Christ. Through submission of one’s will to God’s commandments and our cooperation with the graces he offers us, we can strive towards personal sanctification and holiness. When we live the Gospel, when we love our neighbor as ourselves, we merit actual graces (as opposed to sanctifying grace) that enable us to do further good works. It is not strict merit, in which there not only is an obligation to reward but the value of the act is equal to the value of the reward (as when I promise to give you a given sum of money in exchange for a good or service worth the same amount); but condign merit, in which one has promised to reward the act, so there is an obligation (as when I promise to give you something if you will loan me a particular book, meaning that once I have the book I have an obligation to give you what I promised), that is referred to here. Christ has promised to reward our works of corporal and spiritual mercy, and it is this reward, this grace strictly merited by Him alone and given freely to us, that both makes our works possible and further diminishes our attachment to sin, literally transforming us into the image of Himself. The remission of all associated temporal punishment is not necessarily simultaneous with the remission of eternal punishment. When we are baptized, all punishment for our sins is wiped out. In the case of sins committed after baptism, sanctifying grace is restored through the Sacrament of Reconciliation. But the sinner will most likely still have attachment to those sins as human nature is weak due to the stain of Original Sin. If one dies in the state of sanctifying grace, but still has personal attachment to sin what then becomes of him? The Church teaches that his salvation is assured but also reminds us that the justice of God is uncompromising. Christ’s sacrifice and the unmerited reception of sanctifying grace are super-sufficient for the remission of guilt for one’s sins, but the perfect holiness and justice of God demand that nothing unclean enter His sight. If we are to receive the Beatific Vision, we must be purified or purged of our personal attachment to sin. It is surely better that we accomplish this on Earth, but God’s mercy is such that after death we may receive a final cleansing before entering His presence. This process or place of cleansing, better understood as a state devoid of any temporal dimension, is what the Church names Purgatory. It is a teaching of great hope and mercy – that the love of God for His children who struggle and continually stumble while on Earth is such that even after death he offers a way for their imperfect souls to be perfected and finally joined to His very self. Purgatory is not a place for unrepentant sinners. Those souls who suffer in purgatory do not despair the absence of the Beatific Vision as those do who receive eternal damnation. Souls in purgatory are members of the Body of Christ and belong to the Church Triumphant, which includes the saints (canonized and uncanonized, of course) already in Heaven. Anyone in Purgatory will enter Heaven; however, one must be in a state of sanctifying grace to enter Purgatory, and thus it is not a doctrinal loophole for the otherwise damned. Being a poor sinner, I for one hope that when the messenger of Death knocks at my door, I will be in a position to join the souls in purgatory. And I hope that you might then remember me in your prayers, as I will try to remember you in mine. Best regards, Mike Bradley

Response:

                                                                    JMJ Care to give Scripture

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Page 267, II. Heaven. 1023 Those who die in God’s grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ.(No mention of "only Catholics") They are like God for ever, for they "see him as he is," face to face; (See 1 John 3:2,cf. 1 Cor 13:12; Rev 22:4 By virtue of our apostolic authority, we define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints….and other faithful who died after receiving Christ’s holy Baptism (provided they were not in need of purification when they died or, if they then did need or will need some purification, when they have been purified after death,…) already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment – and this since the Ascension of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into heaven – have been and, are in the heavenly Kingdom and celestial paradise with Christ, joined to the company of the holy angels. Since the Passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ, these souls have seen and do see the divine essence with an intuitive vision, and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature. 1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. 1031 The Church gives the name "Purgatory" to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the dammed. The Church formulated for her doctrine of faith Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florance and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture speaks of a cleansing fire. (See CF.Cor.3:15; 1 Peter 1:17) As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but not certain others in the age to come. 1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore[Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from there sin" (see 2 Macc 12:46) From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commands almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken of behalf of the dead. Jim Carew sfo

Response:

Yes I am a Catholic and I am sorry this is painting by numbers here but I have a serious problem here. I read the bible, I pray that God will open it up to me.  I pray that the Holy Spirit will lead me.

28,000 Christian denominations claim to be led by the Holy Spirit, and they all contradict each other on various points of doctrine, the sad fruit of the Protestant revolt should convince you that it isn’t enough. Read the Bible in light of the teachings of the catholic Church, the same Church that gave us the Bible. I still haven’t found an answer to my question about Purgatory.  I mean why did Christ die if it wasn’t good enough?  We all sin.  It doesn’t mean that I can freely continue on sinning but if the realization leads me to repentance.  All the better.

Tim, you already believe in purgatory … you sin now, but you won’t sin in heaven, therefore BECAUSE Christ died for us, God will cause a change in us, a change so profound that no sin will be found in us…THAT is purgatory, forget all the medieval crap that was believed by most people but never taught in the Church. The Church teaches only three things about purgatory, (1)that it exist, (2)that those who need to be purified will be, and (3)that our prayers can help them. That’s it! That is the sum of official Catholic teaching. — Rhett "For myself, I would not believe the Gospel were it not for the Authority of the Catholic Church!" (St. Augustine)

Response:

Yes I am a Catholic and I am sorry this is painting by numbers here but I have a serious problem here. I read the bible, I pray that God will open it up to me.  I pray that the Holy Spirit will lead me.  I still haven’t found an answer to my question about Purgatory.  I mean why did Christ die if it wasn’t good enough?  We all sin.  It doesn’t mean that I can freely continue on sinning but if the realization leads me to repentance.  All the better. I have to say though that from the sound of the way you all flame each other you are each serving a different Christ then the one I have come to know and Love.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Care to give Scripture? : : Colly There is some in Maccabbees, and also spoken of in the epistles. How many times do we have to paint by numbers for you? The person asking was catholic, and doesn’t subscribe to your protty "bible alone" unbiblical theory anyway. So even if NOTHING was mentioned in the bible, it wouldn’t matter, because, unlike you, we are biblical and don’t do "roll your own" doctrine. Karen

Response:

Care to give Scripture?

He did, Colly.  Just because you can’t recognize scripture without King James’ authorization doesn’t mean that we’re as limited as you are in percieving the Holy Spirit. Ted – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just wondering.  Why purgatory.  I was raised catholic and went to catholic schools for K-12.  Still can’t get a solid answer as to what Purgatory is all about.  I read the Bible and it just doesn’t seem to suggest it.  Any help? From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Page 267, II. Heaven. 1023 Those who die in God’s grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ. (No mention of "only Catholics.") They are like God for ever, for they "see him as he is," face to face; By virtue of our apostolic authority, we define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints (read those in God’s grace and friendship, and other faithful who died after receiving Christ’s holy Baptism (provided they were not in need of purification when they died  or, if they then did need or will need some purification, when they have been purified after death, ) … already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment – and this since the Ascension of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into heaven – HAVE BEEN, ARE AND WILL BE IN HEAVEN, in the heavenly Kingdom and celestial paradise with Christ, joined to the company of the holy angels.  Since the Passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ, these souls have seen and do see the divine essence with an intuitive vision, and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature. 1030 ALL (not just Catholics) who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, ARE INDEED ASSURED OF THEIR ETERNAL SALVATION: but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (page 268,jc) Jim Carew sfo

On emergency address, remove everything past .com…This will send to my cell phone, my work, and my home. http://www.teleport.com/~seebert Very few hate the Catholic Church, but many hate what they think the Catholic Church is.

Response:

Care to give Scripture? Colly

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just wondering.  Why purgatory.  I was raised catholic and went to catholic schools for K-12.  Still can’t get a solid answer as to what Purgatory is all about.  I read the Bible and it just doesn’t seem to suggest it.  Any help? From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Page 267, II. Heaven. 1023 Those who die in God’s grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ. (No mention of "only Catholics.") They are like God for ever, for they "see him as he is," face to face; By virtue of our apostolic authority, we define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints (read those in God’s grace and friendship, and other faithful who died after receiving Christ’s holy Baptism (provided they were not in need of purification when they died  or, if they then did need or will need some purification, when they have been purified after death, ) … already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment – and this since the Ascension of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into heaven – HAVE BEEN, ARE AND WILL BE IN HEAVEN, in the heavenly Kingdom and celestial paradise with Christ, joined to the company of the holy angels.  Since the Passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ, these souls have seen and do see the divine essence with an intuitive vision, and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature. 1030 ALL (not just Catholics) who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, ARE INDEED ASSURED OF THEIR ETERNAL SALVATION: but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (page 268,jc) Jim Carew sfo

Response:

Just wondering.  Why purgatory.  I was raised catholic and went to catholic schools for K-12.  Still can’t get a solid answer as to what Purgatory is all about.  I read the Bible and it just doesn’t seem to suggest it.  Any help?

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Page 267, II. Heaven. 1023 Those who die in God’s grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ. (No mention of "only Catholics.") They are like God for ever, for they "see him as he is," face to face; By virtue of our apostolic authority, we define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints (read those in God’s grace and friendship, and other faithful who died after receiving Christ’s holy Baptism (provided they were not in need of purification when they died  or, if they then did need or will need some purification, when they have been purified after death, ) … already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment – and this since the Ascension of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into heaven – HAVE BEEN, ARE AND WILL BE IN HEAVEN, in the heavenly Kingdom and celestial paradise with Christ, joined to the company of the holy angels.  Since the Passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ, these souls have seen and do see the divine essence with an intuitive vision, and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature. 1030 ALL (not just Catholics) who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, ARE INDEED ASSURED OF THEIR ETERNAL SALVATION: but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (page 268,jc) Jim Carew sfo

Response:

Just wondering.  Why purgatory.  I was raised catholic and went to catholic schools for K-12.  Still can’t get a solid answer as to what Purgatory is all about.  I read the Bible and it just doesn’t seem to suggest it.  Any help? — Timothy Hewitt

Response:

If belivers in Jesus Christ have to go to a place called ‘Pugatory’ to be purged of their sins then Jesus’s death on the cross

Response:

If belivers in Jesus Christ have to go to a place called ‘Pugatory’ to be purged of their sins then Jesus’s death on the cross

Enough for what? Dave

Response:

Most don’t admit anyone is actually going to burn forever in a Lake of Fire.

Well, there probably is no lake of fire, and that was pruely Biblical imagery. -DK "Either your crazy or I am, and I know it can’t be me because I’ve only been to the ward twice and you’ve been there three times". Available as an actor, just e-mail me.

Response:

The official magisterial teaching of the Church regarding Purgatory is now, and has always been:     1.. Purgatory exists, (and souls in Purgatory are guaranteed the full Beatific Vision (heaven) eventually.)     2.. Souls in Purgatory can be aided by the prayers of the Church on earth. Beyond that all is conjecture. The Catholic Church has never attempted to explain where Purgatory is, or how it is that souls there are purged. There are many very good explanations put forth, but these are not teachings of the magisterium. Contemplating Purgatory is a good thing, but we must keep in mind that the only teachings on Purgatory that are binding and obligatory are the two points mentioned above. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The need for purgatory is so your sins can be burned off your soul. Only then will you be holy enough to enter heaven. But it depends on the sin. If it is a mortal sin, then the fires of Purgatory are not enough to burn off those sins and one goes straight to hell. The RCC has decided by some means which sins can be burned off and which can’t. But everyone at least goes to purgatory because every one has at least some sins. Not that I believe the above, but that was what I was taught in Catholic schools years ago. Nowadays, who knows how the RCC has changed it’s doctrine. Priests I have talk to in recent years all have different ideas. Most don’t admit anyone is actually going to burn forever in a Lake of Fire. — Mark 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? http://www.ArmyOfGod.com — Mark 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? http://www.ArmyOfGod.com

Response:

The need for purgatory is so your sins can be burned off your soul. Only then will you be holy enough to enter heaven. But it depends on the sin. If it is a mortal sin, then the fires of Purgatory are not enough to burn off those sins and one goes straight to hell. The RCC has decided by some means which sins can be burned off and which can’t. But everyone at least goes to purgatory because every one has at least some sins. Not that I believe the above, but that was what I was taught in Catholic schools years ago. Nowadays, who knows how the RCC has changed it’s doctrine. Priests I have talk to in recent years all have different ideas. Most don’t admit anyone is actually going to burn forever in a Lake of Fire. — Mark 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? http://www.ArmyOfGod.com — Mark 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? http://www.ArmyOfGod.com

Response:

Related Posts