Christianity QA

Question:

"Only the confused mind chooses" —-Krishnamurti

Response:

You are applying rational analysis to an irrational concept. Sin is a creation of religion. It has no basis in fact, or logic. "Suffering" is a consequence of uncontrollable, unpredictable chaotic events. Pray all you like, "sin" all you like. If events "conspire" (and I don’t like that word…there is no chaotic conspiracy) to cause you harm then you will be harmed. 4)  The actions of god are a manifestation of his will. 5)  Sin is the ultimate reason that humans suffer. Logical assumption: 1)  If humans have free will, the exercise of this free will must be influenced either by design or by environment.

Before you buy.

Response:

What i tried to say is that my God is energy.  All matter is energy (E=mc^2). Energy can neither be created not destroyed, that explains how my god existed forever.  I believe that we are all god because we are self-aware forms of energy, even though we have no special powers or nothing like that. My main point was that if you hurt someone, you will feel that pain when you live the life of the person you hurt.  I also wanted to spread the view of others as another manifestation of yourself (with a different set of memories and realities). But nevermind all that, i am sorry i inconvinienced you.  I won’t bother you anymore.

Response:

Part of the problem in your logic, Michael, is in your origin of sin.  Sin is basically disobedience.  If I as a parent, teacher or the state tell my child, my students or the members of the state "Don’t do that," and you do it;  did I cause you to do it or do you bear the responsibility for having done it.  I as a parent, etc. created the variables in that I made the rule. Yet, we believe that the person who breaks the rules exercised their free will to break the rule.  Now of course, there are extremes.  But in the norm, we don’t blame the stop sign for the accident, we blame the people who went through the stop sign. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Christian assumptions: 1)  The universe was created by god. 2)  Humans (including fallen angels like Satan) were created with the capacity to exercise free will. 3)  Humans sin as a result of exercising free will. 4)  The actions of god are a manifestation of his will. 5)  Sin is the ultimate reason that humans suffer. Logical assumption: 1)  If humans have free will, the exercise of this free will must be influenced either by design or by environment. Rational conclusions: 1)  If god created the universe, he created humans, as well as the environment in which they live; in other words, he created the variables that influence the human exercise of free will. 2)  Since god created the variables that influence the human exercise of free will, god is ultimately responsible for the existence of sin. 3)  Since god’s actions are a manifestation of his will, god wants sin to exist. 4)  Since god wants sin to exist, god wants humans to suffer. Comments? — Michael J. Nash   aa # 1651 EAC Director-General, Operation SADISTIC (Sodomizing And Disemboweling Illiterate, Stupid Theists International Committee) President, Cunnilingus Lovers In Texas  |  Executive Director, Anne Elk Society Official Pantomime Horse of the 2000 Summer Olympics "If God dropped acid, would he see people?" — George Carlin

Response:

Part of the problem in your logic, Michael, is in your origin of sin.  Sin is basically disobedience.  If I as a parent, teacher or the state tell my child, my students or the members of the state "Don’t do that," and you do it;  did I cause you to do it or do you bear the responsibility for having done it.  I as a parent, etc. created the variables in that I made the rule. Yet, we believe that the person who breaks the rules exercised their free will to break the rule.  Now of course, there are extremes.  But in the norm, we don’t blame the stop sign for the accident, we blame the people who went through the stop sign.

My problem with the above statement is that if I teach my child a certain way to act, I’m not going to intentionally throw obstacles into his life that lead him to do otherwise.  Yet that seems to me to be exactly what biblegawd has done, under the Christian worldview.  The Christian god, said to be an omnipotent and omniscient entity, created the universe, and in it he placed variables that lead people to go against his stated will, knowing in advance that we would sin.  When viewed in this light, how is it fair to hold Christians eternally accountable for their sins?  Shouldn’t god also suffer for his part in all this? — Michael J. Nash   aa # 1651 EAC Director-General, Operation SADISTIC (Sodomizing And Disemboweling Illiterate, Stupid Theists International Committee) President, Cunnilingus Lovers In Texas  |  Executive Director, Anne Elk Society Official Pantomime Horse of the 2000 Summer Olympics "If God dropped acid, would he see people?" — George Carlin

Response:

Nash: I am going to reply to this post, even though it was posted in HTML.  Please don’t do this in the future.  It’s nothing but a huge pain in the ass! Also, please don’t e-mail me a copy of your responses.  I visit this NG regulrly, and I make an earnest attempt to read and reply to all responses posted here.  I get enough e-mail as it is, so please don’t add to it. Now, let’s get down to bidness: Nash (original post): Logical assumption: 1)  If humans have free will, the exercise of this free will must be influenced either by design or by environment. Unit: No!  free will says that you will be able to take whichever decision that you please.  It cannot be influenced by environment.  Otherwise it ceases to be free will.  It will become "biological"will– the will to do whatever brings about the most satisfaction and sooner.    We have to stop thinking like this, only then will we be able to achieve truly free will. Nash: What is it specifically about the definition of free will that precludes any influence from environmental factors?  How else would a person choose whether or not to do something?  Seems to me that if your definition of free will were true, that would mean that the Christian god didn’t create humans with the free will to choose whether or not to worship. Nash (original post): Rational conclusions: 1)  If god created the universe, he created humans, as well as the environment in which they live; in other words, he created the variables that influence the human exercise of free will. Unit: Humans create most of the variables that INFLUENCE (not determines) human behavior. Nash: Yes, and according to you people god created humans.  The buck still stops with god. Nash (original post): 2)  Since god created the variables that influence the human exercise of free will, god is ultimately responsible for the existence of sin. Unit: Humans create the variables that influence the exercise of free will, humans are responsible for the existence of unhappiness among themselves or others.     I can only agree with 2) if you accept that [God=each and every human (besides everything else that exists)] Nash: You are either ignorant of, or are choosing to ignore, the fact that if your god does exist, he created the universe with full knowledge of how things would turn out.  Humas do not create the variables, but they are one of the variables involved with free will.  God (so you believe) created humans, knowing how they would behave toward each other, and he also created the other natural phenomena that make humans choose to do things, or not to do them as the case may be.  "Godidit", as you flockers are so fond of saying. Seems to me that if god really didn’t want sin to exist, he would just have eliminated the influences that lead people to do so. Nash (original post): 3)  Since god’s actions are a manifestation of his will, god wants sin to exist. Unit: No!  Human actions are a manifestation of their will.  SOME disturbed humans gain satisfaction from the generation of "sin" (unhappiness). Nash: You still haven’t adequately addressed the fact that if god didn’t want people to sin, he could have chosen not to create the variables that lead people to do so.  If I leace a loaded gun out within reach, and my child shoots him/herself, I can blame it on him/her all I want to, but I’m still ultimately responsible because I made it possible for him/her to shoot him/herself.  Obviously either god was negligent (which would imply that god was not omniscient, in contradiction to predominant Christian belief), or god wanted sin to exist.  Which is it? Nash (original post): 4)  Since god wants sin to exist, god wants humans to suffer. Unit: Some humans have suffered, and they inflict their suffering on everyone else, because they don’t want to feel alone.  Men has the power to stop all suffering in the future.  Only then can men be more God Nash: Again you’re missing the point.  God obviously wants sin to exist, and causing others to suffer is a sin.  Therefore, it seems rational to assume that god wants suffering to exist.  Sure, humans have the power to eliminate all human-caused suffering, but so does god.  Yet, for some reason, god has chosen not to.  Why would that be?  And if god’s not going to stop the suffering, why should humans? Unit:    Jesus is God, and is also Men.  Jesus is you and I.  But Jesus is a messiah.  To be a messiah you must know the truth and believe in it.  This is it.  You are now truly Jesus, as is everyone else that knows it.   We all have the same soul, the soul of Jesus.  Your own soul is the soul of Jesus and is also the soul of another man.  Every man.  After your individual body ceases to exist, your self-awareness continues to exist in another newborn in the present, future, or past; the eternal incarnation of Jesus.    The past has been Hell, there has been much suffering.  People didn’t have the true truth.  It’s time to win the battle and create heaven on Earth (and wherever we go) in the future and forever.  Heaven is the future.  It’s only a matter of time before everyone realizes the truth. God is good and is the good God that thinks in your mind and speaks through you mouth.  The devil is evil and is your materialistic, egoistic insctincts, as well as for your tendency for instant gratification, without regards for others (the devil resulted from natural selection). Nash: I don’t even know what this nonsense means, so naturally I don’t know what to say in response. Nash (original post): "If God dropped acid, would he see people?" — George Carlin Unit: I guess that’s kinda like saying "we are God on acid"– pretty neat. Nash: Huh?  How the hell do you get that out of the Carlin quote? Unit: That still means we are God, though. What does YOUR new messiah looks like? (maybe you should look in the miror). I am just an average person like yourself. Hell has existed in the past.  You have been in Hell already because you were all the people that have suffered in the past.  But you can’t remember a thing because memories are wiped out during death and reset during birth. You can eliminate Hell in the future and ensure an eternal Heaven for all humans (on earth and outer space) in the years to come.  You means me means everyone with the realization of the spirit of Jesus as their own. Pass this knowledge on to others, for that will help them become a part of the true Heaven.  But don’t try to force them, nor put down their own beliefs and make them feel stupid.  That is not going to do it.  Expose them to the truth, and leave them alone, offer help only when it is asked for. Don’t take everything that i say strictly literally.  Language is very ambiguous.  Ask me if you don’t understand.  If you don’t agree with me, ask yourselves why. Nash: Again, I have no clue what youre talking about.  Are you on meds or something? Unit: Be rational and be passionate. Nash: Practice what you preach (at least about the rational part). — Michael J. Nash   aa # 1651 EAC Director-General, Operation SADISTIC (Sodomizing And Disemboweling Illiterate, Stupid Theists International Committee) President, Cunnilingus Lovers In Texas  |  Executive Director, Anne Elk Society Official Pantomime Horse of the 2000 Summer Olympics "Hell is other people." — Jean-Paul Sartre Isaiah 1:15 "And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood."

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Christian assumptions: 1)  The universe was created by god. 2)  Humans (including fallen angels like Satan) were created with the capacity to exercise free will. 3)  Humans sin as a result of exercising free will. 4)  The actions of god are a manifestation of his will. 5)  Sin is the ultimate reason that humans suffer. Logical assumption: 1)  If humans have free will, the exercise of this free will must be influenced either by design or by environment. Rational conclusions: 1)  If god created the universe, he created humans, as well as the environment in which they live; in other words, he created the variables that influence the human exercise of free will. 2)  Since god created the variables that influence the human exercise of free will, god is ultimately responsible for the existence of sin. 3)  Since god’s actions are a manifestation of his will, god wants sin to exist. 4)  Since god wants sin to exist, god wants humans to suffer. Comments?

You nailed it. 9^)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Logical assumption: 1)  If humans have free will, the exercise of this free will must be influenced either by design or by environment. No!  free will says that you will be able to take whichever decision that you please.  It cannot be influenced by environment.  Otherwise it ceases to be free will.  It will become "biological"will– the will to do whatever brings about the most satisfaction and sooner.

Actually, this is false.  Take someone who is living on the streets and starving.  Then take someone who is well off.  Who do you think is more likely to steal food to eat?  An obvious case of environment affecting decision. One woman has a history of breast cancer in her family.  Another woman doesn’t.  Which woman is more likely to have frequent exams to check for breast cancer?  An obvious case of biology affection decision. And these are just simple examples.  There are many, many decisions which are affected by biology and environment.    We have to stop thinking like this, only then will we be able to achieve truly free will.

Free will can certainly never be achieved by obeying without thinking. Rational conclusions: 1)  If god created the universe, he created humans, as well as the environment in which they live; in other words, he created the variables that influence the human exercise of free will. Humans create most of the variables that INFLUENCE (not determines) human behavior.

Humans didn’t create weather, didn’t create the atmosphere, didn’t create the planet, and didn’t create any of the base materials we use. Humans also didn’t create the way we would react to anyone or anything. 2)  Since god created the variables that influence the human exercise of free will, god is ultimately responsible for the existence of sin. Humans create the variables that influence the exercise of free will, humans are responsible for the existence of unhappiness among themselves or others.

As shown above, you are incorrect.  What makes one person happy or unhappy may cause different reactions in another person.  Therefore, said variables are irrelevent, since they don’t have a consistent impact on every person.     I can only agree with 2) if you accept that [God=each and every human  (besides everything else that exists)]

You are still incorrect. 3)  Since god’s actions are a manifestation of his will, god wants sin to exist. No!  Human actions are a manifestation of their will.  SOME disturbed humans gain satisfaction from the generation of "sin" (unhappiness).

Do I choose to feel anger when someone pisses me off?  Do I choose to love or hate any person?  Do you? 4)  Since god wants sin to exist, god wants humans to suffer. Some humans have suffered, and they inflict their suffering on everyone else, because they don’t want to feel alone.  Men has the power to stop all suffering in the future.  Only then can men be more God

Also false.  Many people who choose to enter into occupations which aid others do so because they have been hurt.  Others choose to harm people because they’ve been hurt. Again, no consistent reaction to the same thing [being hurt]. Comments?    Jesus is God, and is also Men.  

Jesus is a myth.  However, he’s also a god in the sense that you choose to worship him. — Dan #1617 "What’s your point, YJK?"

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Christian assumptions: 1)  The universe was created by god. 2)  Humans (including fallen angels like Satan) were created with the capacity to exercise free will. 3)  Humans sin as a result of exercising free will. 4)  The actions of god are a manifestation of his will. 5)  Sin is the ultimate reason that humans suffer. Logical assumption: 1)  If humans have free will, the exercise of this free will must be influenced either by design or by environment. Rational conclusions: 1)  If god created the universe, he created humans, as well as the environment in which they live; in other words, he created the variables that influence the human exercise of free will. 2)  Since god created the variables that influence the human exercise of free will, god is ultimately responsible for the existence of sin. 3)  Since god’s actions are a manifestation of his will, god wants sin to exist. 4)  Since god wants sin to exist, god wants humans to suffer. Comments?

I agree completely.  There is no such thing as "free will".   Everything you do is influenced by only two factors:  what you were born with, and your environment.  Neither of which are under your control, therefore you have no control over your actions. jeff

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Logical assumption: 1)  If humans have free will, the exercise of this free will must be influenced either by design or by environment. No!  free will says that you will be able to take whichever decision that you please.  It cannot be influenced by environment.  Otherwise it ceases to be free will.  It will become "biological"will– the will to do whatever brings about the most satisfaction and sooner.    We have to stop thinking like this, only then will we be able to achieve truly free will.

Doesn’t that seem a little untrustworthy?  I mean, I can have my "free will" decision whether or not to cross the street influenced by my environment (for example, fast approaching cars) or not. [snip] US

Well, that was, um, a lot of assertions, but it doesn’t seem yet as if God is logically possible. — Cabrutus 24.6.208.162/cabrutus/ | DALnet: #atheology

Response:

Christian assumptions: 1)  The universe was created by god. 2)  Humans (including fallen angels like Satan) were created with the capacity to exercise free will. 3)  Humans sin as a result of exercising free will. 4)  The actions of god are a manifestation of his will. 5)  Sin is the ultimate reason that humans suffer. Logical assumption: 1)  If humans have free will, the exercise of this free will must be influenced either by design or by environment. Rational conclusions: 1)  If god created the universe, he created humans, as well as the environment in which they live; in other words, he created the variables that influence the human exercise of free will. 2)  Since god created the variables that influence the human exercise of free will, god is ultimately responsible for the existence of sin. 3)  Since god’s actions are a manifestation of his will, god wants sin to exist. 4)  Since god wants sin to exist, god wants humans to suffer. Comments? — Michael J. Nash   aa # 1651 EAC Director-General, Operation SADISTIC (Sodomizing And Disemboweling Illiterate, Stupid Theists International Committee) President, Cunnilingus Lovers In Texas  |  Executive Director, Anne Elk Society Official Pantomime Horse of the 2000 Summer Olympics "If God dropped acid, would he see people?" — George Carlin

Response:

Logical assumption: 1)  If humans have free will, the exercise of this free will must be influenced either by design or by environment.

No!  free will says that you will be able to take whichever decision that you please.  It cannot be influenced by environment.  Otherwise it ceases to be free will.  It will become "biological"will– the will to do whatever brings about the most satisfaction and sooner.    We have to stop thinking like this, only then will we be able to achieve truly free will. Rational conclusions: 1)  If god created the universe, he created humans, as well as the environment in which they live; in other words, he created the variables that influence the human exercise of free will.

Humans create most of the variables that INFLUENCE (not determines) human behavior. 2)  Since god created the variables that influence the human exercise of free will, god is ultimately responsible for the existence of sin.

Humans create the variables that influence the exercise of free will, humans are responsible for the existence of unhappiness among themselves or others.     I can only agree with 2) if you accept that [God=each and every human (besides everything else that exists)] 3)  Since god’s actions are a manifestation of his will, god wants sin to exist.

No!  Human actions are a manifestation of their will.  SOME disturbed humans gain satisfaction from the generation of "sin" (unhappiness). 4)  Since god wants sin to exist, god wants humans to suffer.

Some humans have suffered, and they inflict their suffering on everyone else, because they don’t want to feel alone.  Men has the power to stop all suffering in the future.  Only then can men be more God Comments?

   Jesus is God, and is also Men.  Jesus is you and I.  But Jesus is a messiah.  To be a messiah you must know the truth and believe in it.  This is it.  You are now truly Jesus, as is everyone else that knows it.   We all have the same soul, the soul of Jesus.  Your own soul is the soul of Jesus and is also the soul of another man.  Every man.  After your individual body ceases to exist, your self-awareness continues to exist in another newborn in the present, future, or past; the eternal incarnation of Jesus.    The past has been Hell, there has been much suffering.  People didn’t have the true truth.  It’s time to win the battle and create heaven on Earth (and wherever we go) in the future and forever.  Heaven is the future.  It’s only a matter of time before everyone realizes the truth. God is good and is the good God that thinks in your mind and speaks through you mouth.  The devil is evil and is your materialistic, egoistic insctincts, as well as for your tendency for instant gratification, without regards for others (the devil resulted from natural selection). "If God dropped acid, would he see people?" — George Carlin

I guess that’s kinda like saying "we are God on acid"– pretty neat.  That still means we are God, though. What does YOUR new messiah looks like? (maybe you should look in the miror). I am just an average person like yourself. Hell has existed in the past.  You have been in Hell already because you were all the people that have suffered in the past.  But you can’t remember a thing because memories are wiped out during death and reset during birth. You can eliminate Hell in the future and ensure an eternal Heaven for all humans (on earth and outer space) in the years to come.  You means me means everyone with the realization of the spirit of Jesus as their own. Pass this knowledge on to others, for that will help them become a part of the true Heaven.  But don’t try to force them, nor put down their own beliefs and make them feel stupid.  That is not going to do it.  Expose them to the truth, and leave them alone, offer help only when it is asked for. Don’t take everything that i say strictly literally.  Language is very ambiguous.  Ask me if you don’t understand.  If you don’t agree with me, ask yourselves why.  Be rational and be passionate. We are all blessed.  Life can be so beautiful!!! US

Response:

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