Christianity QA » Christian God » Are we worshipping *their* satan?
Question:
(Palewood) writes:
I was thinking… If the Chrstians think their Jehova is the only true god that stands for all that is good, rightious, Christian, holy etc. then are we pagans worshipping what their Satan stands for? Can we truely say we aren’t worshipping their Satan?
My reply (Palewood) was: <<We most certainly CAN say we aren’t. To define ourselves as worshipping their concept of Satan is to define ourselves not by our *own* beliefs but rather by *their* definitions. If one accepts the Christian interpretation–i.e., "The One True Way"(tm)– then everyone who does not follow Christianity is wrong. Somehow, I don’t think so… Further, the Christian concept of Satan is as the embodiment of Evil, of all that is wrong, all that is opposed to the plan of Creation, etc. That doesn’t sound like anything anyone I know of is worshipping. Blest be, Niels "They are being decieved by Satan" Thats what my "fundamentalist" father used to tell me when I’d ask him about other religions. "shrug"
Itis unfortunate but true that that argument is often used: Unless one believes as the fundamentalists do, one is "deceived". To have deceived the majority of the world’s population, Satan must have better spin doctors than Jehovah. ;D Niels
Response:
Cavebob writes: If the Chrstians think their Jehova is the only true god that stands all that is good, rightious, Christian, holy etc. then are we pagans worshipping what their Satan stands for? Can we truely say we aren’t worshipping their Satan?
Yes. All you have to do is look at what "their Satan" stands for, summarizable as "A rebellion against Jehovah and everything He values." Since Jehovah does not exist as a part of my cosmology, I cannot be in rebellion against him any more than I can be in rebellion against the King of Prussia.
Response:
(Meducia) writes: One of the other Biblical things that drives me nuts is in Revelations- it is the Jehova’s Witnesses favorite thing to talk about, which to me, they mistranslate. When the conditions of heaven are described it sounds wonderful untill you think about it. The folks are so overwhelmed with singing hte praises of God that they no longer shed tears for thier loved ones who dont make it in. They are drugged on the presence of the Lord, that they forget everything and are content only to stand in divine bliss. The very idea of God wiping away my memories is insulting. This sounds like God wants little clones to sing and praise him- gee- more little sheep to serve him. YUK YUK YUK!!
Wow. I never looked at it that way. No wonder I never felt comfortable being a Christian when I tried to be. Sounds like a dictatorship to me. Anyway, I am comfortable and content being a Wiccan. Christians view me as Satan (adversary), but I’m okay with that I guess. Nothing they can say will deter me from my beliefs… wonder why they fall from thiers?
Response:
Willow, Cave Bob, and others have commented on the mirror image of us worshiping the dark forces, or is it they worshipping the opposite of our light which makes them worshippers of the dark? The place, in my opinion, where we stand in better shape psychologically, is that we recognize that divinity has both a dark and a light nature. Just as we do. The reconcilliation that takes place in our minds and hearts when we contemplate the divine, is a revelation into life and death itself, and the beginning of true wisdom. To deny the dark half of the divine denies our dark half, and puts a tolerance upon us too thin to survive this life, much less our dealings with our fellow beings. Nature is our book to study higher things. As above so below, not only is a blueprint for molding our magics; it is a book of the divine. What god would animals worship, but the one who gave them life, sustenence, and protection? Mother and Father. What bursts forth in life, dies in shit and decay, and blooms again? All living things. What comes to life again after the cold death of winter. The earth. What flows after ice? Water. What kills to eat? We do. We do all those things that we have seen all life do. In nature’s worship, and the gods who give a human face to the processes of nature, there is no room for only one half. This is the part that they do not understand. Christianity is founded on a vague idea of power, government, dues owed, blood in payment, and heaven itself is one boring pecking order. Hello to Felix. I got bored. New E mail address. Pip
Response:
Well, Christianity itself is a very unhateful religion… when followed in spirit rather than to the letter.
Pardon me but I’m really having a problem understanding what you are saying. Christianity is "unhateful," but only if you don’t follow it "to the letter"? In other words the "letter" of christianity is hateful, but if you ignore it’s written theology in can be otherwise. That seems to be your argument. Instead of following the religion by their own choice and making a concious effort to live a Christian life, many people just go along for the ride, and end up taking everything literally instead of thinking it over.
The trouble is that Christianity has its holy book that defines the religion. If you toss that out and do something else and call it christian you can be as benevolent as you like. Doing christianity "literally" by the book evidently keeps people from "living a Christian life" according to your argument. That sounds very convoluted and illogical to me. was because I *didn’t* accept everything in the Bible at face value, and sometimes I think I just got lucky.
But, can you really be Christian and reject the Bible and it’s teaching? I don’t see how that would be possible. Maybe I’m confused. Zardoz Greybeard http://www.oldways.org
Response:
I was thinking… If the Chrstians think their Jehova is the only true god that stands for all that is good, rightious, Christian, holy etc. then are we pagans worshipping what their Satan stands for? Can we truely say we aren’t worshipping their Satan?
Elliot, According to the alt.satanism FAQ: "’Satan’ derives from the word ‘Shaitan’, which means, roughly, ‘opponent’ or ‘adversary’. When someone engages energies which are in some way contradictory to our path, they become our ‘Satan’. Such a person is seen in different ways by different people." There is a quote in the Bible which essentially has God saying "those who are not for me are against me". Well, since we are not specifically proponents of Yahweh, we are by Christian definition their adversary…their "Shaitan"…their "Satan".
Response:
For many, to question is to fall in insecurity. I think that’s one of the thing about pagans that scare christians so much, independance and the ease in wich they practice their beliefs. The fact that we do not fear our goods or goddess is enough to get a christian head over heel !! For them all that is not exactly what the leader said is evil and is of Satan. In that point of view yes we are following SAtan because all that isn’t their way is Satan’s way. It’s not all christians of course, but some of them think that way…
I agree. If you look at what the Bible teaches, it is all about security and order. It isnt that God is "good", but that his way is the way of order. Pagans by thier very nature adore diversity,and that is truely God’s enemy. Look at the symbolism of the shepard and the sheep. At first it sounds very sweet- but when I start thinking about it, it makes me ill. I have no desire to be just another sheep. Sheep live dull lives- they are told where to go, what to eat and who to breed with. Only the shepard has the power to protect the sheep and govern thier lives. YUK! One of the other Biblical things that drives me nuts is in Revelations- it is the Jehova’s Witnesses favorite thing to talk about, which to me, they mistranslate. When the conditions of heaven are described it sounds wonderful untill you think about it. The folks are so overwhelmed with singing hte praises of God that they no longer shed tears for thier loved ones who dont make it in. They are drugged on the presence of the Lord, that they forget everything and are content only to stand in divine bliss. The very idea of God wiping away my memories is insulting. This sounds like God wants little clones to sing and praise him- gee- more little sheep to serve him. YUK YUK YUK!! Lucifer caught on to this idea and rebelled against "order". Though I do not sympathise regularly with Luci, I really dont blame him much for leaving- I wouldnt want to be part of the corporation either if it meant spending eternity drugged on God and devoting my energies directly to him for his glory. Sounds rather one sided. I will pick independance, individuality and diversity any day. Our Gods cherish those ideals and I will happily co-exist with them and enjoy our give and take relationships. Meducia
Response:
Francesca Carey writes:
<<That reminds of another problem I have with Christianity. How can Christians be so sure that THEY aren’t the ones worshipping Satan. They are so sure that pagans are being mislead via a veneer of a good religion, but from what I have seen of both ideologies that it is that Christianity that is more hateful. While God claims love, a lot of the messages in the Bible are calls for violence and hate. Well, Christianity itself is a very unhateful religion… when followed in spirit rather than to the letter. But now that Christianity is so widespread and so many people are Christians, the majority of people are going to church just because their families and friends go to church and that’s just the way it is. Instead of following the religion by their own choice and making a concious effort to live a Christian life, many people just go along for the ride, and end up taking everything literally instead of thinking it over. I’ve learned a lot of good moral lessons from being raised as a Christian, but that was because I *didn’t* accept everything in the Bible at face value, and sometimes I think I just got lucky. A person truly living a Christian life rather than following the Christian text would realize the good intentions *behind* the verses that say to spread the word of God. The belief in a power greater than ourselves and the goal of improving ourselves through spirituality is often ignored by people today, or not taken seriously. Trying to encourage the belief in the one true God/Goddess is a good thing. Since the Christian God is supposed to equal the one true God, a good Christian would see that if someone has made the step into acknowledging their spirituality, regardless of what religion they credit it to, then their job is done. But it’s very easy to misinterpret those verses. It takes serious thought and an open mind to see the greater truth behind those verses, but since most of the people in church only bother to pick up the literal words… instead of people believing "our goal is to help others believe that some one true God exists," we get a bunch of people believing "our goal is to make others believe that the one true God is exactly like *this*, and must be called by *this* name…" I think that’s a wonderful question. ;) Christians should be doing their God justice by spreading the belief in one great spirit with many names, with their view just being one way out of many. They should uphold Jesus’ teachings of kindness by teaching *tolerance* in the churches and helping the congregations to take their Bible seriously enough to *not* swear by its every word. If a Christian tries to discriminate against a truly spiritual person just because they aren’t a Christian… if they put that little effort into their own spirituality and hurt people that are honestly thinking about their own beliefs… they are doing just the opposite of what their religion is trying to accomplish. They are not following their God, but doing a great injustice. In Christian terms, they *would* be the ones unknowingly following the influence of Satan. -Mijae, beginner Christian/Wiccan, Taurean Hierophant-at-large ^_^
Response:
A person truly living a Christian life rather than following the Christian text would realize the good intentions *behind* the verses that say to spread the word of God.
Perhaps you are unaware that there are verses in the Bible that clearly and unmistakeably advocate things such as slavery and the killing of "witches". It would be difficult to read ‘good’ intentions as we understand them today behind those verses. Aside from that, your comments are good about the way Christians *ought to* act toward those of other beliefs, or indeed the way anyone should. You don’t earn the right to expect your beliefs to be respected unless you show that same respect toward others. ForestMage
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was thinking… If the Chrstians think their Jehova is the only true god that stands for all that is good, rightious, Christian, holy etc. then are we pagans worshipping what their Satan stands for? Can we truely say we aren’t worshipping their Satan? Well, originally, Satan was not the embodiment of evil, but merely "the adversary" (the name the Qu’ran uses for him, Shaitan, means "adversary"), so if the Goddess and God are seen as the "adversaries" of the Christian God, then yes, we may well be. Beannachtai, Goewyn
Well I can’t answer for you, but I’m not! I don’t believe in their "Satan". Their Satan, like their "God", is preposterous. Cairns
Response:
: I was thinking… : If the Chrstians think their Jehova is the only true god that stands for : all that is good, rightious, Christian, holy etc. then are we pagans : worshipping what their Satan stands for? Can we truely say we aren’t : worshipping their Satan? Absolutely we can. Their Satan basically stands at the opposite end of God. But, contrary to the thinking of certain fundamentalists, not all gods other than Jehova are the opposite of Jehova; they are simply different aspects of the Divine. Moreover, Jehova *in their mind* represents all that is good, holy, and just; but Jehova does not always represent goodness, holiness is relative to the gods you worship, and Jehova is certainly not always Just. : Blessed be, : Elliot — Blessed Be, Michael Smith For reliable information on paganism, magick and witchcraft, start with http://www.witchvox.com/wvoxmap.html http://www.tpao.org/ is GONE. Don’t let the same thing happen to the Witches’ Voice! http://www.witchvox.com/white/wsponsor.html for details. DISCLAIMER: My opinions do not necesarily reflect those of Loyola University’s Department of Mathematics and Computer Sciences.
Response:
(Palewood) writes: I was thinking… If the Chrstians think their Jehova is the only true god that stands for all that is good, rightious, Christian, holy etc. then are we pagans worshipping what their Satan stands for? Can we truely say we aren’t worshipping their Satan?
"They are being decieved by Satan" Thats what my "fundamentalist" father used to tell me when I’d ask him about other religions. "shrug"
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cavebob writes: <<If the Chrstians think their Jehova is the only true god that stands for all that is good, rightious, Christian, holy etc. then are we pagans worshipping what their Satan stands for? Can we truely say we aren’t worshipping their Satan? It’s reasoning like that that probably leads to Christians having such paranoia about pagan religions… and it’s so unneccesary because if you believe in good and rightiousness and a greater spiritual force, then that’s the same thing as the Christian belief in God. This is a good question, except it should perhaps be the other way around… we should ask them "Can you truly say we aren’t worshipping your God?" -Mijae, beginner Christian/Wiccan, Taurean Hierophant-at-large ^_^ That reminds of another problem I have with Christianity. How can Christians be so sure that THEY aren’t the ones worshipping Satan. They are so sure that pagans are being mislead via a veneer of a good religion, but from what I have seen of both ideologies that it is that Christianity that is more hateful. While God claims love, a lot of the messages in the Bible are calls for violence and hate.
When you are blinded by your own "purity" and "goodness" you miss all the goodness of the world around you. Religious fanatics give me the impression that they are searching for "bad peoples" to point out because it give them a chance to dodge their own guilt. Maybe they feel that if they can point out something that is really bad nobody will ask them about the condition of their own soul. Wicca ( and many others pagan religion) is based on personal growth one has to find his or her own way. But as an ex-Christian, I beleive that christianity isn’t that open. In theory it is, but in facts most christian are used to accept the preach, pope, or who ever is their spiritual leader , word at face value. For many, to question is to fall in insecurity. I think that’s one of the thing about pagans that scare christians so much, independance and the ease in wich they practice their beliefs. The fact that we do not fear our goods or goddess is enough to get a christian head over heel !! For them all that is not exactly what the leader said is evil and is of Satan. In that point of view yes we are following SAtan because all that isn’t their way is Satan’s way. It’s not all christians of course, but some of them think that way… Willow
Response:
I was thinking… If the Chrstians think their Jehova is the only true god that stands for all that is good, rightious, Christian, holy etc. then are we pagans worshipping what their Satan stands for? Can we truely say we aren’t worshipping their Satan? I realize this is a kind of blasphemous question this is community. I’d also like to point out that the way I’m putting it isn’t exactly what I’m trying to say, but its the best I can do–i have a profound lack of ability to express myself. Blessed be, Elliot
Response:
Cavebob writes: <<If the Chrstians think their Jehova is the only true god that stands for all that is good, rightious, Christian, holy etc. then are we pagans worshipping what their Satan stands for? Can we truely say we aren’t worshipping their Satan? It’s reasoning like that that probably leads to Christians having such paranoia about pagan religions… and it’s so unneccesary because if you believe in good and rightiousness and a greater spiritual force, then that’s the same thing as the Christian belief in God. This is a good question, except it should perhaps be the other way around… we should ask them "Can you truly say we aren’t worshipping your God?"
Amen. Beannachtai, Goewyn http://members.aol.com/goewyncw http://www.geocities.com/athens/oracle/5094 "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup!"
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If the Chrstians think their Jehova is the only true god that stands for all that is good, rightious, Christian, holy etc. then are we pagans worshipping what their Satan stands for? Can we truely say we aren’t worshipping their Satan? It depends on your perspective, and you’re intent. If you take a laundry list of what their satan stands for, and what our gods, ect, stand for, and compair them, then you may find similarities. Yet, our (or atleast my) intent isn’t to worship any satan. If the two are similar, then that’s all fine and good. That’s from my perspective. From theirs, may be different. They see satan as following this list of guidlines, and then they see our gods, ect, as matching those guidelines. So, they naturally assume that one is the other. That’s fine. That’s not our intent, however. I hope this makes more sense to you than it does to me. ~Lee **Stand! Stand and walk! Tragedy is cheap, and so is talk**
Just had to put my two cents in on this one… Are we (am I) worshipping their satan? Hmmm let think bout this one…NO!!! (i don’t mean to yell, just emphasis, you understand…) I don’t worship christian deities, whether they are on the side of "good" or the side of "evil" Yes there may be similarities, and as Cavebob said, thats all well and good…that is the way that christianity converted us pagans (and the general use of terrorist tactics…but thats another topic altogether) May your life’s candle burn strong and true… May it’s light protect you from the darkness within… May it light your path unwavering… And when the time comes, may the Great Lady’s hand guide you home. Kodiak "Every time we as a species have opened up a new frontier we have learned to behave a little better." Spider Robinson
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cavebob writes: <<If the Chrstians think their Jehova is the only true god that stands for all that is good, rightious, Christian, holy etc. then are we pagans worshipping what their Satan stands for? Can we truely say we aren’t worshipping their Satan? It’s reasoning like that that probably leads to Christians having such paranoia about pagan religions… and it’s so unneccesary because if you believe in good and rightiousness and a greater spiritual force, then that’s the same thing as the Christian belief in God. This is a good question, except it should perhaps be the other way around… we should ask them "Can you truly say we aren’t worshipping your God?" -Mijae, beginner Christian/Wiccan, Taurean Hierophant-at-large ^_^
That reminds of another problem I have with Christianity. How can Christians be so sure that THEY aren’t the ones worshipping Satan. They are so sure that pagans are being mislead via a veneer of a good religion, but from what I have seen of both ideologies that it is that Christianity that is more hateful. While God claims love, a lot of the messages in the Bible are calls for violence and hate.
Response:
I was thinking… If the Chrstians think their Jehova is the only true god that stands for all that is good, rightious, Christian, holy etc. then are we pagans worshipping what their Satan stands for? Can we truely say we aren’t worshipping their Satan?
We most certainly CAN say we aren’t. To define ourselves as worshipping their concept of Satan is to define ourselves not by our *own* beliefs but rather by *their* definitions. If one accepts the Christian interpretation–i.e., "The One True Way"(tm)– then everyone who does not follow Christianity is wrong. Somehow, I don’t think so… Further, the Christian concept of Satan is as the embodiment of Evil, of all that is wrong, all that is opposed to the plan of Creation, etc. That doesn’t sound like anything anyone I know of is worshipping. Blest be, Niels
Response:
I was thinking… If the Chrstians think their Jehova is the only true god that stands for all that is good, rightious, Christian, holy etc. then are we pagans worshipping what their Satan stands for? Can we truely say we aren’t worshipping their Satan?
I would say a prime difference is that the Gods and Goddesses I look to are not 100% "good" nor 100% "evil" such as the Christian God and Satan dichotomy. In most of the legends, the Gods show a wide range of actions, depending on their personalities. Look at Odin or Thor or Hecate or…take your pick. Even the more negative Gods such as Apophis serve a function…I’ve never quite figured out what Satan’s function is supposed to be except to get people in trouble with the Christian God and thrown in hell. (BTW, "Jehova" is a bastardization of the 4 letters of the Tetragrammaton ( Yod- Heh- Vavh-Heh) and is really not a name of the Judeo-Christian God, despite it’s use by Jehova’s Witlesses). Rich
Response:
If the Chrstians think their Jehova is the only true god that stands for all that is good, rightious, Christian, holy etc. then are we pagans worshipping what their Satan stands for? Can we truely say we aren’t worshipping their Satan?
It depends on your perspective, and you’re intent. If you take a laundry list of what their satan stands for, and what our gods, ect, stand for, and compair them, then you may find similarities. Yet, our (or atleast my) intent isn’t to worship any satan. If the two are similar, then that’s all fine and good. That’s from my perspective. From theirs, may be different. They see satan as following this list of guidlines, and then they see our gods, ect, as matching those guidelines. So, they naturally assume that one is the other. That’s fine. That’s not our intent, however. I hope this makes more sense to you than it does to me. ~Lee **Stand! Stand and walk! Tragedy is cheap, and so is talk**
Response:
Cavebob writes:
<<If the Chrstians think their Jehova is the only true god that stands for all that is good, rightious, Christian, holy etc. then are we pagans worshipping what their Satan stands for? Can we truely say we aren’t worshipping their Satan? It’s reasoning like that that probably leads to Christians having such paranoia about pagan religions… and it’s so unneccesary because if you believe in good and rightiousness and a greater spiritual force, then that’s the same thing as the Christian belief in God. This is a good question, except it should perhaps be the other way around… we should ask them "Can you truly say we aren’t worshipping your God?" -Mijae, beginner Christian/Wiccan, Taurean Hierophant-at-large ^_^
Response:
In a word, no. Pagans don’t worship the things the Christian devil stands for. According to the Christians, their devil is the source of all evil. Most pagans are not (In the Christian "black & white" world view) evil people. According to most Christians who know a thing or two about Wicca, we don’t worship the devil directly, but worship a false "dummy" god created by the devil to distract us from the one true god. My idea is that all religions worship the same supreme being(s), just have different ideas about him/her/them. Blessed be, -Mutt the Pagan Fur ftp://furry.olsy-na.com/pub/Images/Jim-Tarpley/ http:www.witchvox.com "Come on, you apes! You wanta live forever??" -Unknown platoon sergeant, 1918 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was thinking… If the Chrstians think their Jehova is the only true god that stands for all that is good, rightious, Christian, holy etc. then are we pagans worshipping what their Satan stands for? Can we truely say we aren’t worshipping their Satan? I realize this is a kind of blasphemous question this is community. I’d also like to point out that the way I’m putting it isn’t exactly what I’m trying to say, but its the best I can do–i have a profound lack of ability to express myself. Blessed be, Elliot
Response:
I was thinking… If the Chrstians think their Jehova is the only true god that stands for all that is good, rightious, Christian, holy etc. then are we pagans worshipping what their Satan stands for? Can we truely say we aren’t worshipping their Satan?
Well, originally, Satan was not the embodiment of evil, but merely "the adversary" (the name the Qu’ran uses for him, Shaitan, means "adversary"), so if the Goddess and God are seen as the "adversaries" of the Christian God, then yes, we may well be. Beannachtai, Goewyn http://members.aol.com/goewyncw http://www.geocities.com/athens/oracle/5094 "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup!"
Response:
I was thinking… If the Chrstians think their Jehova is the only true god that stands for all that is good, rightious, Christian, holy etc. then are we pagans worshipping what their Satan stands for? Can we truely say we aren’t worshipping their Satan?
Hi Elliot, No, I don’t think you can get a connection there with paganism and their Satan. Most of us don’t worship what Satan stands for. I believe Satan stands for (maybe I’m wrong) evil and wrong doing and harming people and generallly getting along in a negative, against the flow of things kinda stuff. Maybe some stuff found in some Pagan lives would fit under the ‘Satan Stands For’ (depending on which of the Christian religions), catagory, but evil usually isn’t part of it. To do harm is usually how the Satan thing is understood, and the Pagan ideal is quite different than that. I’m no theologist, but, what I get from the Christian idea is that God is good and Satan is bad. Kind of a polarity of light and dark. All things bad are the Satan department and all things good are the God department. Just my opinion. I’m sure you’ll get a whole bunch of others. 
Pam — Soap Crafters Company Soap Base, Molds!, Essential Oils & Bulk Herbs Soap Making Instructions http://soapcrafters.com
Response:
I suppose that would depend on what you classify Satan as. Being a former Catholic I was taught that Satan embodies all that is evil. Having grown up I know realize that "if" there is a Satan it doesn’t necessarily stand for evil, perhaps just for a different path that is misunderstood by others, who either can’t or refuse to try, to understand or accept it. Sheba – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was thinking… If the Chrstians think their Jehova is the only true god that stands for all that is good, rightious, Christian, holy etc. then are we pagans worshipping what their Satan stands for? Can we truely say we aren’t worshipping their Satan?
no comment untill now