Christianity QA

Question:

<snip Although I think we have reached an impasse, I would like to interject a thought. I support the spirit of love the Aaron brought to the discussion even if he might have made some specific remarks that seemed either "politically incorrect" or perhaps overzealous pertaining to certain scripture. I’m not here to judge that and I’m sure neither are you.

I appreciate what you’re saying.  I’m not here to judge *people*.  Aaron’s probably a well-meaning person who just hasn’t thought through his uncharitable beliefs.  I shudder to think what I’d believe if I had been raised like him.  But the welfare of the world requires that we judge ideas. I don’t consider that intolerant, do you?  (Though I admit I could have fumed less at Aaron and made it less personal). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If interolerance of others beliefs was easy then it wouldn’t be much of a virtue, would it? I think intolerance has to span into areas of the world where we might personally, due to our own values, find an expressed belief abhorrent or reprehensible. One important reason for the need for this depth of intolerance is because those we might find "shocking" in their expressed beliefs are themselves refining and evolving in their quest for truth over the course of their lifetime. You might catch them at a certain moment in time where their expression of their heartfelt beliefs not only fails to gel with your own values and beliefs, but seems so inhumane that you want to condemn them. A year later they might have refined their beliefs and values based on their ever expanding knowledge to the extent that you might not even recognize them! For example a year from now it is possible that Aaron will develop his Christian faith to where he expresses his beliefs differently or accentuates other aspects of his beliefs to where, if he were to reply to a similar topic such as this one, you might say to him (not knowing it was the same person as before), "I’m amazed that you have such a balanced view toward life that I’ve heard from few Christians! I recall ‘Aaron’ a year ago who is the exact opposite to you!" When in fact, you didn’t realize you were speaking to Aaron from a year earlier who is posting perhaps under a chosen screen name, and further, you don’t realize his fundamental Christian beliefs and values in relation to the Bible have not substantially changed.

This is of course possible.  But like YS said, I’m not going to give up on denouncing his beliefs and exposing them for being dangerous.  People like him have got to learn their lesson, or what you describe will never come to pass.  I’m sorry that I’m not better and more mature at it. I hold the view as do other Christians I know that the atrocities chronicled in the canon of the Bible’s Hebrew scriptures in various books, pertaining to the abuse and murders of men, women and children, were not promoted by God. It would require a massive post to even scratch the exegesis of these accounts in order to place them in their true context, historical reality and relationship to God’s allowing these things in His grand scheme to save (not destroy) humanity.

Save us from what?  A fate that religionists with political power invented to scare people into obeisence.  Mental gymnasitics cannot excuse God.  He obviously could have made his Bible a little clearer.  You are in the position of having to defend the idea that God repeatedly made his word to appear to say the opposite of what he meant, and failed to make the context of his meaning clear, and this is exactly what has caused the kind of strife we’re dealing with here. I’m glad your view of Christianity is so enlightened as to not accept the atrocities of the Bible as God’s will.  But I’m sorry to say I can’t comprehend how you can do so without being fundamentally at odds with God’s purported word.  Personally I would be unable to deal with the cognitive dissonance. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last but not least I must comment on a remark you made to Aaron in a separate post reply you gave to Aaron in this topic on 09/05/2004 at 11:50 PM as follows: You wrote in this topic on 09/05/2004 at 11:50 PM: The only thing that could save this line of "reasoning" is to say that your rejection of God would inflict infinite pain on God, every bit as much as eternal damnation would cause you infinite pain–then God might be justified in damning you.  But this is obviously not the situation we’re in, is it? How does anyone on Earth know if this is the situation?

Are you trying to say that you or I might possibly have infinite understanding of God’s desires?  You snipped out that part, but it was integral to my argument.  Even if we could inflict infinite pain on God (which is preposterous), if we’re not perfectly aware that we’re doing so, then damnation is still unjust. It might very well be the situation in a sense no human or angel will never fully comprehend. The Bible is silent on whether God will suffer a form of "emotional damnation" (to paraphrase your words) for eternity, as part of the price He will forever pay for saving mankind (the other part of that price the initial pain and suffering God had to endure in seeing his Son give his life in redemption for mankind).

His payment is finished.  Jesus isn’t suffering anymore; he only did so for a couple of days, was dead for only three, and is now glorified.  From an eternal perspective, one day on a cross is not that bad. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Perhaps God’s own Son, Jesus Christ, who was so close to his Father that in a sense they were one in spirit, can give a glimpse into the pain and anguish that God is feeling over the terrible human suffering that has occurred over that past millenniums. Long after those precious children are resurrected who died horribly in the past, long after they are fully grown adults living happy productive immortal lives in God’s kingdom in the distant future, God will bear the emotional torture stake that his own Son carried to his death a very long, long time ago. Although Jesus Christ could bring the dead to life during his life on Earth, the Bible shows that even the temporary loss of life and suffering from loved ones broke his heart and made this grown man cry. Like Father, like Son?

"it is believed by everyone that when he was in heaven he was stern, hard, resentful, jealous and cruel, but that when he came down to earth, he became the opposite… sweet, gentle merciful, forgiving. He was a thousand billion times crueler than ever he was in the Old Testament… Meek and gentle? By and by we will examine that popular sarcasm by the light of the hell which he invented."         —Mark Twain – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -In the following scriptures from the New Testament Greek canon, in the book of John, we see a glimpse of how God might feel forever more about the suffering He has allowed to occur for the greater eternal salvation of mankind. (John 11:30-37) 30 Jesus had not yet, in fact, come into the village, but he was still in the place where Martha met him. 31 Therefore the Jews that were with her in the house and that were consoling her, on seeing Mary rise quickly and go out, followed her, supposing that she was going to the memorial tomb to weep there. 32 And so Mary, when she arrived where Jesus was and caught sight of him, fell at his feet, saying to him: "Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died." 33 Jesus, therefore, when he saw her weeping and the Jews that came with her weeping, groaned in the spirit and became troubled; 34 and he said: "Where have YOU laid him?" They said to him: "Lord, come and see." 35 Jesus gave way to tears. 36 Therefore the Jews began to say: "See, what affection he used to have for him!" 37 But some of them said: "Was not this [man] that opened the eyes of the blind man able to prevent this one from dying?" The Jews were moved by the deep love Jesus expressed in letting go of his emotions, but they were puzzled at the same time. They reasoned that if Jesus could resurrect the dead, what did it matter that they experienced terrible suffering leading to their death? It mattered! Perhaps Jesus Christ’s Father could very well suffer in a spiritual sense a form of the eternal "damnation" forever on account of the terrible human suffering occurring for so many millenniums – even though this is a "blip" in relation to eternity!

This is impossible to cognize.  Either it’s forever, or it’s not. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (John 11:38-44) 38 Hence Jesus, after groaning again within himself, came to the memorial tomb. It was, in fact, a cave, and a stone was lying against it. 39 Jesus said: "TAKE the stone away." Martha, the sister of the deceased, said to him: "Lord, by now he must smell, for it is four days." 40 Jesus said to her: "Did I not tell you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?" 41 Therefore they took the stone away. Now Jesus raised his eyes heavenward and said: "Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 True, I knew that you always hear me; but on account of the crowd standing around I spoke, in order that they might believe that you sent me forth." 43 And when he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice: "Laz

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