Worried about Kids these days.

Christianity QA » Christian Faith » Worried about Kids these days.

Christian Faith

Question:

I like the laws, they’re good laws, considering what they are (laws!) The only one I have a problem with is "I speak without disturbing others". SOmetimes we need to disturb others with what we say. Don’t you agree? bibi — Beauty will save the world. Dostoevsky Dig It! http://yourpage.blazenet.net/bibi/

Response:

Here are some interesting "laws" that may appeal to some. They are arranged differently than the origional, but the content is still the same. I personally have this printed up, framed and hung on the wall next to my computer. I dont always fulfill the laws, but I do what I can. To me, they are a nice addition to the Rede because they arent a list of "DO NOT’s", but a list of positive goals. Meducia The Forty-Two Laws of Maat Goddess of Truth and Judgement I respect the property of others I care for the earth I affirm that all life is sacred I eat only my fair share I honor animals as sacred gifts I keep the waters pure I give offerings that are genuine and generous I hold sacred those objects consecrated to the Divine I give blessings I praise the Goddess I embrace The All I speak the truth I speak works of good intent I speak positively of others I communicate with compassion I speak without disturbing others I speak with optimism I listen to opposing opinions I relate in peace I can be trusted I spread joy I create harmony I am forgiving I invoke laughter I benefit without violence I keep my own council I remain in balance with my emotions I hold purity in high esteem I do the best I can I advance through my own abilities I follow my inner guidance I achieve with integrity I honor virtue I am non violent I live in truth I am trustful in my relationships I am open to love I am non abusive I act respectfully to others I am non judgemental I do good I am humble

Response:

A lot of them are disconnected from any other person in their lives emotionally, and sometimes that is out of self-defense. Folks of any age who are killing on a whim aren’t connected to themselves,

This entire conversation is of great importance to me since I have kids ages 2 & 6. I am working to raise them realistically, but along with a sense of self, propriety, right & wrong, responsibility. I am not the best parent, but I AM working to be the best parent I can be. I don’t believe the problem is any one thing… except perhaps a problem with our societal structure & values. All the things we do not like happening around us are simply symptoms of a greater problem that is difficult to see and even more difficult to address since it is so deeply rooted in all of us. (note: I use the term "we" because I am speaking of us collectively as a society) I roughly break it into components… and these are by no means all of them… 1. lack of respect for the feminine (in other words, we do not respect the feminine, so healing and answers that might be found there are ignored as non-valuable) 2. worship of money (we put forth the acquisition and use of this thing above everything) 3. inherent disconnection (from ourselves, from each other, from the earth, from all the patterns of which we are a part) 4. a desire to escape 5. thinking in only the short term I will discuss birth in light of the above, I am a professional birth junkie so there’s my frame of reference for you. Also, I must state that I am very much pro-homebirth and low intervention, however I have NO problem with appropriate use of medical technology such as anesthesia and cesarean section (I myself having had one with my first birth). I have NO problem with medical techniques being used when needed, it is the one-size-fits-all application that is wrong. I also understand clearly that homebirth is NOT for everyone and that some feel more comfortable in the hospital. That said, pregnancy and birth are a means to an end, how you get a baby. A baby is just another thing that we need to have to go with our house, SUV, vacation home, barbecue grill, etc. The journey to motherhood through pregnancy and birth has no honor for the transformative process that it is. Look at how we have baby showers, we give all kinds of gifts for the baby, but rarely do we gift the mother with any sort of ritual or things for HER. We ask about the baby, but we don’t ask about how she is doing emotionally and spiritually. Then with birth, most women choose drugs to avoid the pain, they are also avoiding the psychobiological process that prepares her to mother and connect with her baby. No one ever tells her about this because very few have any clue about the importance of this journey. Birth is just a mechanical process to the medical profession and is not treated with respect. And the disconnection process begins. My question is this: If we are not connected to our babies from birth, what can the future hold for them? Some will survive and some will not. We need to think in the LONG TERM. Birth is just one more thing that is affected by our society. I recommend "Birth as American Rite of Passage" by Robbie Davis-Floyd. It will open your eyes. Thanks for your time, Jenni Schmidt www.geocities.com/Wellesley/5488

Response:

I apologize if it seemed like I was trying to turn it into a "racial thing;" that certainly wasn’t my intention. But why should a half-dozen maniacs within five years of my age be considered a reflection of my entire generation? When somebody your age (and I’m not addressing this to anybody in particular) goes postal, my guess is that you don’t even notice. BB! — JC

Response:

I am not a parent. I do volunteer at a performing arts center on a high school campus and this is based on my interactions with several hundred students in the course of a semester. They aren’t all angels. Neither are they all vicious hate filled killers. A lot of them are disconnected from any other person in their lives emotionally, and sometimes that is out of self-defense. Folks of any age who are killing on a whim aren’t connected to themselves, they are trying to do what the Dorene Valiente’s Charge of the Goddess reminds us cannot be done "that if that which thou seekest thou findest not within thee, then thou wilt never find it without thee." They are trying to fill holes left in them with things, trying to stop pain with intense emotion, and they cannot do it. It is hard to kill someone for a thing such as a pair of shoes or a jacket if you have made a genuine connection to another person. It is hard to make a connection to another if you haven’t made a connection to yourself and your own sense of esteem/value/worth. Sometimes that takes time and effort by someone, parent, teacher, religious instructor, medical or other care giver to help them see they do matter and are worth loving in and of themselves even though not perfect. Any one who has been in the field of education can tell you of students who fell through the cracks, but they can also tell you of those who did not because someone was willing to spend a bit of time and effort or willing to give them a chance at something that gives them a sense of pride in themselves that is not a chip on the shoulder insecurity masquerading as pride.

Response:

[...deletia...] I would tend to agree that this a big part of the problem…..but with to many after the "almighty dollar" it will be hard to deal with.

James, it is not the pursuit of the almighty dollar that is the problem, it is the fact that the dollar buy’s a lot less than it did 30 years ago, hell, for that matter, even 10 years ago. And if you want someone to blame for violence in America, the finger points directly to our elected kings and qu…, excuse me, elected representatives on the Hill in D.C. When one is frightened of the truth . . . then it is never the whole truth that one has an inkling of. – Ludwig Wittgenstein (1889-1951) Austrian philosopher. Notebooks 1914-1916 (ed. by Anscombe, 1961), entry for 15 Oct. 1914. Tony Veca

Response:

I thought Aries was the Greek god of war. I guess he moved on to the ol’ USA. — Jason C. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (snip) What is going on with today’s youth? We have pre-teen kids shooting other pre-teen kids, for no reason (protection of one’s family or loved ones is what I would consider a good reason, if it is life and death.) (snip) I wish I knew. My suspicion is that this is a result of overpopulation, but that’s just a guess, no data backing it up. Here where I am we recently had a case of 3 pre-teen boys, ages 7, 9, and 11, sexually assaulting and severely beating a three year old girl. They watch violent cartoons and other garbage from the TV set. They ingest a nearly endless stream of violent images, courtesy of the media… they play violent arcade and video games, and if they grow up in America, they live in a culture that has long worshipped bloody gods of war in one form or another, one which has glorified violence and has completely failed to respect women as the image and likeness of the Goddess. They worship a symbol of Roman execution and wear it around their necks, forgetting the message of peace and universality that’s supposed to lie behind that symbol…. their parents are too busy chasing the dollar and worrying whether they’re keeping up with the Joneses materially…. Then a story like that one hits the news, and we all wonder *why*…. Two problems were obvious: 1.) nobody was watching this little girl and these three boys just walked into her yard and hauled her off; and 2.) the neighbors of these boys all said that the mother was often away for days at a time and there was no food in the house. Children can’t raise themselves with good values. Anyway, what really bothers me is the fact kids today will gun you down for stupid reasons: the girl broke up with him, Mommy said no to staying out past curfew, and other BS reasons. Can we do anything about this alarming trend?? It is getting to be more of a serious problem these days, it seems……and there doesn’t seem to be an answer for it. The newsmen didn’t even try to chalk it up to "occult" or "satanism" because the kids were mainly from good christian homes. Anybody have any ideas about this? *Most* of them are from "good Christian homes", let’s face it… <well, maybe from _nominally_ ‘Christian’ families, but not from **good** Christian homes, no way…. but "good homes," whether Christian or Jewish or Pagan, should not produce little rapists or killers….

"Wagner’s music is better than it sounds." — Mark Twain Jason M. Collins Computer Lab Operator (Lab-op) Computing Services University of Arkansas This email in no way represents the views or policies of Computing Services or the University of Arkansas.

Response:

I am agreeing with James here. It is not a "racial" thing. As for how I would know, read my reply to his post. He is not attaching a racial overtone to it. 2 words: Paduka, Kansas. 2 more words: Jonesborough, Arkansas. Neither of the kids were in the "minority" classification. They were caucasian students, in majority caucasian schools, in majority caucasian towns, and both had "solid christian backgrounds". This proves that this isn’t just confined to race. Buddy, we have an epidemic on our hands. If this keeps up, there will be no color line for ANYONE to compare it to. Blessed Be! (to everyone INCLUDING James Wheat AND Bullet with butterfly wings) Dooney Forrestwalker Leader of the solitary eclectic circle of the Red Mountian Birmingham, Alabama – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – cross-posted: Anyway, what really bothers me is the fact kids today will gun you down for stupid reasons: the girl broke up with him, Mommy said no to staying out past curfew, and other BS reasons. James, try substituting "blacks" or "Mexicans" for "kids" in the sentence above. Now, do you find it offensive? Well, I find it offensive as-is, and request–no, DEMAND–an apology. BB! (to everybody but JW) — JC Would you rather I said "a certain group?" I am sorry if I offended YOU, as that was not the intent of this posting. I guess I should have said "some kids" or even "most kids", but this is a problem that recognizes no color lines, no ethnic background, nor any other "minority" problem you wish to use. And, if you are a "kid", i.e. youth of today, you know what I am talking about. I do not want to start a flamewar with anyone, it is a waste of time and bandwidth. I posted this out of the emotion of hearing of another "kid killing kids" segment on the evening news. Please, reread what I posted, and don’t feel it is aimed at YOU. It is aimed at everyone, no matter what age, race, creed, religion, whatever. It is a problem we all need to understand and deal with, not flame someone for bringing it up. James Wheat

Response:

Greetings Rowan and Blessed Be ! While reading through the commentary, yours caught my attention. I have noticed this as well and think it is worthy of further investigation. Now, I don’t want this to turn into Christian bashing, even though I must confess I hold no love for their religion, but there *is* a definite "something" going on here. This trend is not just occurring within Christian children, however. If we look back through the newsreels, we are inundated with stories of various "Christian ‘Cults’" who have come to the forefront of the National Media. Amazingly, there have been few (Heaven’s Gate for one, for the life of me I cannot think of another) stories regarding "other" faiths or belief systems. If we are to believe the polls, fully half (more or less) of the population of the United States claim to be Christian or followers of a Christian faith. Seemingly, with this data, what we are seeing is the breakdown of this religion. It is my opinion that the root problem of the majority of this Country’s populace is the lack of responsibility. People want so desperately to put the blame on someone else. I only have to offer the sheer number of lawyers and court cases to prove my point. They want the Government to take care of us. They want anyone other than ourselves to make our decisions. Unfortunately, Christianity provides the same "outs". Why, if you make a mistake, you can just blame it on the devil (or whatever). God will make it okay. Let Him rule and just put your blinders on and everything will be okay. Heaven forbid you should question anything. Sarcasm aside, what I say is true for the most part. Irregardless of religion or faith, responsibility, or lack thereof, is the problem. As a Witches, I don’t have that luxury. I am singularly responsible for my actions. I have no one to blame but myself. Now, before anyone agrees or disagrees, let me add that this applies only to me and the way *I* was taught. I am not implying that everyone is taught this. I also think that we are seeing "the beginning of the end." The pendulum seems to be swinging the other way. Mainstream Christianity is becoming more unpopular each and every day. More and more followers are leaving because they are disgruntled and for other reasons, to many to list here. I cannot help to wonder but if the apocalypse so feared by the Christians is in fact the demise of their religion as they see it. True it is speculation, but it is interesting, don’t you agree?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The answer is the economy. Just 30 years ago, most households were 1 income. Mom was at home, and there was always guidance for the kids. Today it is not unusual for the average household to have 2 to 4 incomes. Both parents are working, and there is no guidance for the kids. I can remember not to long ago, latchkey kids only belonged to single parents, that is not true today. Most of it can be blamed on the 4 Eyed monster (Income Tax, Inflation, Interest, and Insurance). Today, at least in America, the average person gives between 45 to 60% of their annual income in taxes (please note, this is all taxes; income (state and federal), sales, excise, licensing, etc. ect.).

I would tend to agree that this a big part of the problem…..but with to many after the "almighty dollar" it will be hard to deal with. James

Response:

I think it’s a safe bet that it’s been a problem for longer than 25 years. One of the differences now is that national news is much easier to get ahold of. You can find out what’s happening 3000 miles away as easily as you can find out what’s happening next door. As a result, events that would have been local in scope receive national attention. I’m not saying that these events are being blown out of proportion; I think there is cause for concern. But what we need to ask is, is the level of violence increasing, or is it just more widely reported? People ignored it when it was contained in poor, black or Hispanic inner city neighborhoods. Now that it’s spreading to suburban and rural areas, and that it’s white kids committing the crime, the media is making a big deal and people are in an uproar. Yes, it’s tragic, yes, it’s a big deal, but is it any surprise?

Not to me. I grew up just outside of Washington D.C., longtime holder of the national record for incidences of violent crime. (Doesn’t seem to be getting better, either. While the mayor goes on holiday, the rest of the city government seems to be fighting an overwhelming sense of resignation–and losing.) As far as the causal roots … parents letting kids spend too much time in front of the television? Schools that let kids out at 4 combined with jobs that let parents out at 6? Millenium fever? I have a pet theory, entirely unproven, that it’s the hormones in our meat. Another pet theory is that our biology is changing thanks to improvements in nutrition, but out society hasn’t adjusted accordingly.

I think the role of mass media is exaggerated. It’s rather like the theory that playing Dungeons and Dragons turns you into a Satanist. If the predisposition doesn’t exist, an individual is less likely to act out in this manner. In other words, we should quit blaming TV and start looking at the job that parents are doing. Or, as Ministry put it, "Adults create the world that children live in." I do think that parents not spending enough time with their kids and leading by example is a cause and possibly the prime one. This doesn’t mean that a latchkey kid is destined to become a delinquent–I know many people who grew up this way and turned out fine. In twenty five years things will have settled down again and we’ll remember these times as the bad ol’ days. Those of us that survive, anyhow.

I dunno. Does anyone refer to times past as the "bad old days"? I mean, even writers in ancient Greece complained that their children were turning into delinquents. (I wish I could remember the cite for this.) The "good old days" are a myth. Rimrunner pondering a writing project on american mythology — Murder of Crows official web site: http://www.nwlink.com/~noah/ Force This!: http://www.shavenwookie.com/rimrun Pop-Culture Corn: http://www.pccmag.com — "Look, I don’t know how they do things on your home planet, spaceman…but here in Mayberry, we just don’t talk to gun-toting, redneck, amphetamine freaks that way." — Milkman Dan, "Red Meat" —

Response:

: Group, I had the news one this evening, and after the 4th story of a : kid shooting another kid, I turned it off. What is going on with : today’s youth? We have pre-teen kids shooting other pre-teen kids, : for no reason (protection of one’s family or loved ones is what I : would consider a good reason, if it is life and death.) Senseless violence has been a problem in the United States for twenty five years. People ignored it when it was contained in poor, black or Hispanic inner city neighborhoods. Now that it’s spreading to suburban and rural areas, and that it’s white kids committing the crime, the media is making a big deal and people are in an uproar. Yes, it’s tragic, yes, it’s a big deal, but is it any surprise? As far as the causal roots … parents letting kids spend too much time in front of the television? Schools that let kids out at 4 combined with jobs that let parents out at 6? Millenium fever? I have a pet theory, entirely unproven, that it’s the hormones in our meat. Another pet theory is that our biology is changing thanks to improvements in nutrition, but out society hasn’t adjusted accordingly. In twenty five years things will have settled down again and we’ll remember these times as the bad ol’ days. Those of us that survive, anyhow. — Blessed Be, Michael Smith For reliable information on paganism, magick and witchcraft, start with The Witches’ Voice: http://www.witchvox.com/ TPAO is GONE. Don’t let the same thing happen to the Witches’ Voice! http://www.witchvox.com/twv/webnotes3.html and http://www.witchvox.com/white/wsponsor.html for details. Who Cybersits the Cybersitter? http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5341/freedom.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Group, I had the news one this evening, and after the 4th story of a kid shooting another kid, I turned it off. What is going on with today’s youth? We have pre-teen kids shooting other pre-teen kids, for no reason (protection of one’s family or loved ones is what I would consider a good reason, if it is life and death.) I see in here people bickering, and do some name-calling, with mainly RBB and Felix doing a "death threat" or two (no offense to you guys/gals – just an example) I have no idea if they mean it, though, or if they would actually be able to say it face to face with M Smith or anyone else. Probly just blowing smoke cuz it’s a newsgroup, and pretty safe from reprisals. Anyway, what really bothers me is the fact kids today will gun you down for stupid reasons: the girl broke up with him, Mommy said no to staying out past curfew, and other BS reasons. Can we do anything about this alarming trend?? It is getting to be more of a serious problem these days, it seems……and there doesn’t seem to be an answer for it. The newsmen didn’t even try to chalk it up to "occult" or "satanism" because the kids were mainly from good christian homes. Anybody have any ideas about this? James Wheat

James, I have an answer but it one many refuse to look at, because it is fairly simple. But, like all simple things has some very sever implications. The answer is the economy. Just 30 years ago, most households were 1 income. Mom was at home, and there was always guidance for the kids. Today it is not unusual for the average household to have 2 to 4 incomes. Both parents are working, and there is no guidance for the kids. I can remember not to long ago, latchkey kids only belonged to single parents, that is not true today. Most of it can be blamed on the 4 Eyed monster (Income Tax, Inflation, Interest, and Insurance). Today, at least in America, the average person gives between 45 to 60% of their annual income in taxes (please note, this is all taxes; income (state and federal), sales, excise, licensing, etc. ect.). When one is frightened of the truth . . . then it is never the whole truth that one has an inkling of. – Ludwig Wittgenstein (1889-1951) Austrian philosopher. Notebooks 1914-1916 (ed. by Anscombe, 1961), entry for 15 Oct. 1914. Tony Veca

Response:

The one thing that really bothers me about all this is (and I’m not saying this for the sake of argument, it really bothers me.) is that every one of these recent school shootings revolves around some Christian group, organization, or the children come from Christian homes.. Is this because in a society that is so open about other systems of belief, and many other issues that Christians disagree with these children are being put under severe limitations of thought, word, and deed; or is there some other element (possibly television. It seems strange that after the television broadcast of the first shooting 4 more happen in a month or two.); or is it a combination of both. (the aforementioned children see the broadcast and see it as a way, although a horrible one, to let their parents know that they are unhappy.) In any case, children are very open to learn, perhaps we should watch what they are being exposed to. I’m not saying don’t teach them about homosexuality, safe sex, etc.., just that your ten year old shouldn’t be watching things chocked full of violence, stereotypes, and messages of hopelessness. MTV, Jerry Springer (I watch it though, cause it’s funny as shit), CNN, MadTv, and a few others rank on my list of no-nos for Connor. Freedom of speech, yes; but wait until they stop being little sponges for worthless information and can make the choice on their own. Psychologists conclude that children cannot reason on their own until about 12 or 13. Before that they live only by what they have been shown is right or wrong. If they are watching something that portrays violence as being normal, then it will be. Point them to the Discovery Channel, TLC, or any of the many resources available for them now. Please be sure that you have not misconstrued what I am saying before you reply. The point is YOU are responsible for your children growing up to be good people or not. Help them to reach their full potential through sound guidance (not censorship, guidance. There is a difference.). Sorry so long winded, Rowan Hawthorne, You can please some of the people all of the time, or all of the people some of the time; but you can’t please all of the people all of the time. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Group, I had the news one this evening, and after the 4th story of a kid shooting another kid, I turned it off. What is going on with today’s youth? We have pre-teen kids shooting other pre-teen kids, for no reason (protection of one’s family or loved ones is what I would consider a good reason, if it is life and death.) I see in here people bickering, and do some name-calling, with mainly RBB and Felix doing a "death threat" or two (no offense to you guys/gals – just an example) I have no idea if they mean it, though, or if they would actually be able to say it face to face with M Smith or anyone else. Probly just blowing smoke cuz it’s a newsgroup, and pretty safe from reprisals. Anyway, what really bothers me is the fact kids today will gun you down for stupid reasons: the girl broke up with him, Mommy said no to staying out past curfew, and other BS reasons. Can we do anything about this alarming trend?? It is getting to be more of a serious problem these days, it seems……and there doesn’t seem to be an answer for it. The newsmen didn’t even try to chalk it up to "occult" or "satanism" because the kids were mainly from good christian homes. Anybody have any ideas about this? James Wheat

Response:

HEY! Starship Troopers was an EXCELLENT book! Don’t dis the movie unless you’ve read the book! I loved their society. It shows what’s best and worst about ours, but the whole movie is a SATIRE. Robert A. Heinlein was one of the worlds greatest social philosophers, as well as science fiction writers. — Jason C. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, call me bitter, but I blame it on society – I think that our society, which emphasizes capitalism, competition, greed, self-interest-only, backstabing for positions, hate, combat, advesarial politics, and law, with a legal system that is based on the presence of force and guns to enforce (not that word, even) decrees, rulings, and statutes, creates the violence we experience. It teaches kids that violence, competition, and greed are the cogs of our society. You must do what you have to do to survive and suceed – even if you don’t like it, even if it’s "immoral" or "unethical", you’re taught in many ways to do whatever it takes to "win" in any situation from the day you’re born. From school to TV to what your parents do and teach you, consciously or subconsciously, it’s all around. It is almost impossible to escape these messages. Sex sells. Violence sells. Every day we are exposed to more and more violence, to the point that we can watch a movie like "Starship troopers", with graphic scenes of humans in pain being ripped limb from limb, lying dead in pools of their own blood, and like it. And feel nothing. Not caring, because we either know it isn’t real, or maybe we’re caught up in the mob-fever of enjoyment (ever wonder why movies feel better in full cinemas? Study mob psychology? A mob will do things individuals won’t. Collective erasure of ethics…) During that movie, I even was rooting for the bugs. I hated humanity so much I liked seeing them torn limb from limb. And I know the evils men do to eachother in the name of money, and how wrong it was, and I was still wrapped up in it. Not that I’m saying media only is responsible. No ONE THING is responsible. It’s like a puzzle. Small pieces make it up, one at a time, but when you put it all together you get the whole picture. So it is with us. We have a huge problem in society – many huge ones. but no one "cause" is the key. They all come together to make the whole suck more than any one of its parts. And all of what mankind does to itself, collectively, comes back on the collective three times over. it harms all mankind – those who’s hand inflicts the pain, those on whom the pain is inflicted, and those who were not their and did nothing ALSO feel the ripple effect of the action. And that includes children. I’m worried for them. They deserve a nice, full, beautiful life free of the horrors of this age, and they’re not going to get it. They’re going to grow up (those that live, anyway) and be dragged into this huge machine of society we are all parts of. Our only hope, as I see it, is if we can make it suck a little less, make the whole a little less evil, then perhaps our children can make it suck even less by the time they’re done. Granted, everything moves in small steps, even continents, but maybe in 10 generations or so humanity can make real, lasting, changes for the better. Big ones. And that’s what we can live for – finding the good and making the good that we can, and passing that on to our children instead of the message that to live and be happy you have to participate in mass evil, expoitation, and destruction. There’s my thoughts on the matter… Sam

Logicians have but ill defined As rational the human kind. Logic, they say, belongs to man, But let them prove it if they can. — Oliver Goldsmith Jason M. Collins Computer Lab Operator (Lab-op) Computing Services University of Arkansas This email in no way represents the views or policies of Computing Services or the University of Arkansas.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To: Mr James Wheat and all other readers of Alt.Religion.Wicca Mr. James’s observation has hit the nail right on the head. And I should know. I am from one of the most demographically-charged groups when it comes to this type of thing. I am an african-american male who has grown up not only in the inner city, but in the rough parts of said city. I have had friends of mine get shot for stupid things like a certian type of jacket or shoes, or because someone said the wrong thing to a person. I have heard of parents of my friends being shot because of things like "she wouldn’t let me go out" or "she wouldn’t give me a pair of (insert name brand shoe here)." It is bittersweet for me to say that I have beaten the odds, that I have never been to jail, murdered, anyone, or even severely injured anyone (unless it was in self-defense), thank the Goddess and God, and I have never, ever have either touched a projectile weapon untill i was properly trained in it’s use, or ever drawn such weapon in anger.

You have used your mind and determination. Somehow, somewhere these tools wer given you and you were smart enough to use them to your and our advantage. I say that it is bittersweet, because there were so many kids like myself that didn’t make it. They thought there was no way out for them. i was fortunate. Because of my (supposed) high intelligence, I went to school in the best parts of town, entering into their "gifted" programs, all the way till my graduation from high school. Along the way, i was exposed to a number of enviroments and cultures other than my own. and it was engraned at an early age that all life, no matter what side of town they came from, or what they felt about the world view in general, was sacred, and that none of us, even the people bestowed by our laws to carry that power, has the right to take that away. Simple concept of respect. Respect others as they would have them respect you.

Simple rules are often the hardest to follow. You have been fortunate in that your folk supported your decisions to go for the gifted programs. Here in Dallas we have a TAG program where the racial balance is equal for African-Americans, Hispanics, Whites, and there was even an Oriental kid the last time I looked. However there is a local minority faction that protests this group of potential saviors getting priviledges others don’t. I think that groups like these protesters, who have a reputation for being publicity hounds, are a problem we all need to be on the look-out for. I feel that we, as Wiccans (and Pagans in general), have a moral obligation to pass this on not only to our children, but to other people’s children. You may say, "but I could get into legal trouble for telling someone else’s kid what to do", or "why should I worry about somene else’s child (especially when I have my own to worry about?".

Which African was it who said "It takes a village to raise a child?" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So, the main question is "what can i do about it?" Well, posting to this newsgroup about the problem and facilitating heathy discussion as to the anwser is a start. from there, do what you feel is the right corse to go. I am active and visible in my old neighborhood (openly as a wiccan, this is no time to hide from religious zealots, our future is at stake), explaining to children who come up to me to talk about the basic concept of life and respect for it. Wether or not they’ll remember it when the time comes, God and Goddess only know. But at least I’ve made an attempt to try and hault the more-than-common problem at hand. You can do no less In conclusion, I ask that each one of you take a look at yourselves, and ask yourself what you can do to hault this tide. One person can not do this alone, but all of us, as a uniting force, can stem the tide with the Godeess and God’s help. As perople who have taken up the charge of the Goddess, abide bt the Rede, and follow the Principals of Wiccan Belief, we can do no less. Feel free to respond, flame, post, etc to this newsgroup on this subject. Merry Meet, Merry Part, untill we Merry Meet again. Dooney Forrestwalker, Leader of the solitary eclectic Circle of the Red Mountian Birmingham, Alabama

Dude, you have cast-iron balls. Folks, you have to see this guy is in a position to catch it from both rednecks and minorities. Blessed be, my friend, I will remember you in my prayers and meditation. Love, Alice

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyway, what really bothers me is the fact kids today will gun you down for stupid reasons: the girl broke up with him, Mommy said no to staying out past curfew, and other BS reasons. James, try substituting "blacks" or "Mexicans" for "kids" in the sentence above. Now, do you find it offensive? Well, I find it offensive as-is, and request–no, DEMAND–an apology. BB! (to everybody but JW) — JC

Would you rather I said "a certain group?" I am sorry if I offended YOU, as that was not the intent of this posting. I guess I should have said "some kids" or even "most kids", but this is a problem that recognizes no color lines, no ethnic background, nor any other "minority" problem you wish to use. And, if you are a "kid", i.e. youth of today, you know what I am talking about. I do not want to start a flamewar with anyone, it is a waste of time and bandwidth. I posted this out of the emotion of hearing of another "kid killing kids" segment on the evening news. Please, reread what I posted, and don’t feel it is aimed at YOU. It is aimed at everyone, no matter what age, race, creed, religion, whatever. It is a problem we all need to understand and deal with, not flame someone for bringing it up. James Wheat

Response:

You’re opening up for a potential flood of blame anywhere anyone really want’s to stick it. I sense your honest concern, so I will still take a crack at your question, but I would first like to commend you for your compassion. The way my father describes his youth, I see diffirences. If you were good at something, great, you were recognized. If you were mediocre, still ok, you could still participate in a group environment if you could personally do so ‘in the shadow’ of those who were great. If you stank, you _still_ get to live, because you either got picked last or didn’t play. Now today there is a spirit of mandatory one-upmanship. If you do x, I must do x+1 to make par or 2x to do better. If you’re good, you better be able to beat everyone all the time. If you’re bad, just don’t do it, you’ll save yourself bruises to body and ego as well as face. If you’re mediocre, DANGER, these are the nasty ones. Some greats might go out of line to stay great. There are precedents in the juvenile world and there are adult rolemodels aplenty. But the mediocres see the social rush of being great and act to ascend through improper means. It’s all vaguely reminescent of 16th century Japan; feudalism, face, and fealty. Or you could paint it to be all about teen depression, drug use, early pregnancy, educational decline, christianity, or anything else negative. My best guess is shorter than my above example. It’s a mix of them all. Different for different kids. Why more now than before? Psychological inertia. The problem was always there, then the population exploded. Watch out for the short easy answers. They usually contain blame. Never bring Occam’s Razor into politics. SP P.S. I’m eighteen, and yes I was an unpopular, undersized child. — "Well, there is a good deal they had in the old days," said Forell,dryly. "These are the new days." (Foundation and Empire, by Isaac Asimov) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (snip) What is going on with today’s youth? We have pre-teen kids shooting other pre-teen kids, for no reason (protection of one’s family or loved ones is what I would consider a good reason, if it is life and death.) (snip) I wish I knew. My suspicion is that this is a result of overpopulation, but that’s just a guess, no data backing it up. Here where I am we recently had a case of 3 pre-teen boys, ages 7, 9, and 11, sexually assaulting and severely beating a three year old girl.

They watch violent cartoons and other garbage from the TV set. They ingest a nearly endless stream of violent images, courtesy of the media… they play violent arcade and video games, and if they grow up in America, they live in a culture that has long worshipped bloody gods of war in one form or another, one which has glorified violence and has completely failed to respect women as the image and likeness of the Goddess. They worship a symbol of Roman execution and wear it around their necks, forgetting the message of peace and universality that’s supposed to lie behind that symbol…. their parents are too busy chasing the dollar and worrying whether they’re keeping up with the Joneses materially…. Then a story like that one hits the news, and we all wonder *why*…. Two problems were obvious: 1.) nobody was watching this little girl and these three boys just walked into her yard and hauled her off; and 2.) the neighbors of these boys all said that the mother was often away for days at a time and there was no food in the house. Children can’t raise themselves with good values. Anyway, what really bothers me is the fact kids today will gun you down for stupid reasons: the girl broke up with him, Mommy said no to staying out past curfew, and other BS reasons. Can we do anything about this alarming trend?? It is getting to be more of a serious problem these days, it seems……and there doesn’t seem to be an answer for it. The newsmen didn’t even try to chalk it up to "occult" or "satanism" because the kids were mainly from good christian homes. Anybody have any ideas about this?

*Most* of them are from "good Christian homes", let’s face it… <well, maybe from _nominally_ ‘Christian’ families, but not from **good** Christian homes, no way…. but "good homes," whether Christian or Jewish or Pagan, should not produce little rapists or killers….

Response:

Anyway, what really bothers me is the fact kids today will gun you down for stupid reasons: the girl broke up with him, Mommy said no to staying out past curfew, and other BS reasons.

James, try substituting "blacks" or "Mexicans" for "kids" in the sentence above. Now, do you find it offensive? Well, I find it offensive as-is, and request–no, DEMAND–an apology. BB! (to everybody but JW) — JC

Response:

(snip) What is going on with today’s youth? We have pre-teen kids shooting other pre-teen kids, for no reason (protection of one’s family or loved ones is what I would consider a good reason, if it is life and death.) (snip)

I wish I knew. My suspicion is that this is a result of overpopulation, but that’s just a guess, no data backing it up. Here where I am we recently had a case of 3 pre-teen boys, ages 7, 9, and 11, sexually assaulting and severely beating a three year old girl. Two problems were obvious: 1.) nobody was watching this little girl and these three boys just walked into her yard and hauled her off; and 2.) the neighbors of these boys all said that the mother was often away for days at a time and there was no food in the house. Children can’t raise themselves with good values. Anyway, what really bothers me is the fact kids today will gun you down for stupid reasons: the girl broke up with him, Mommy said no to staying out past curfew, and other BS reasons. Can we do anything about this alarming trend?? It is getting to be more of a serious problem these days, it seems……and there doesn’t seem to be an answer for it. The newsmen didn’t even try to chalk it up to "occult" or "satanism" because the kids were mainly from good christian homes. Anybody have any ideas about this?

At least they weren’t trying to blame us for it. I also think that this problem has been around for a while, maybe not as serious as it seems today, but not as rare as we would like to believe. People just didn’t see the value in exposing it till recent times. Alice

Response:

I feel that we, as Wiccans (and Pagans in general), have a moral obligation to pass this on not only to our children, but to other people’s children.

You are absolutely right. I have corrected my daughter’s new school friends for making racist remarks. (I don’t know if they got them from their parents or from from kids in their neighborhoods.) At any rate, I don’t worry about what their parents will say. First of all, my responsibility to my daughter (to teach her what is right and to teach her to stand up for her beliefs) is my most important goal. Secondly, a personal goal of mine is to be true to my own ethics (which means I don’t stay silent in the face of racism or sexism no matter who is making those remarks.) Finally, I’m sure that the parents of my daughter’s friends think nothing of reciting prayers with their kids while my daughter is spending the night. In the same vein, I think nothing of saying what is and is not acceptable in my house. Holiday

Response:

Well, call me bitter, but I blame it on society – I think that our society, which emphasizes capitalism, competition, greed, self-interest-only, backstabing for positions, hate, combat, advesarial politics, and law, with a legal system that is based on the presence of force and guns to enforce (not that word, even) decrees, rulings, and statutes, creates the violence we experience. It teaches kids that violence, competition, and greed are the cogs of our society. You must do what you have to do to survive and suceed – even if you don’t like it, even if it’s "immoral" or "unethical", you’re taught in many ways to do whatever it takes to "win" in any situation from the day you’re born. From school to TV to what your parents do and teach you, consciously or subconsciously, it’s all around. It is almost impossible to escape these messages. Sex sells. Violence sells. Every day we are exposed to more and more violence, to the point that we can watch a movie like "Starship troopers", with graphic scenes of humans in pain being ripped limb from limb, lying dead in pools of their own blood, and like it. And feel nothing. Not caring, because we either know it isn’t real, or maybe we’re caught up in the mob-fever of enjoyment (ever wonder why movies feel better in full cinemas? Study mob psychology? A mob will do things individuals won’t. Collective erasure of ethics…) During that movie, I even was rooting for the bugs. I hated humanity so much I liked seeing them torn limb from limb. And I know the evils men do to eachother in the name of money, and how wrong it was, and I was still wrapped up in it. Not that I’m saying media only is responsible. No ONE THING is responsible. It’s like a puzzle. Small pieces make it up, one at a time, but when you put it all together you get the whole picture. So it is with us. We have a huge problem in society – many huge ones. but no one "cause" is the key. They all come together to make the whole suck more than any one of its parts. And all of what mankind does to itself, collectively, comes back on the collective three times over. it harms all mankind – those who’s hand inflicts the pain, those on whom the pain is inflicted, and those who were not their and did nothing ALSO feel the ripple effect of the action. And that includes children. I’m worried for them. They deserve a nice, full, beautiful life free of the horrors of this age, and they’re not going to get it. They’re going to grow up (those that live, anyway) and be dragged into this huge machine of society we are all parts of. Our only hope, as I see it, is if we can make it suck a little less, make the whole a little less evil, then perhaps our children can make it suck even less by the time they’re done. Granted, everything moves in small steps, even continents, but maybe in 10 generations or so humanity can make real, lasting, changes for the better. Big ones. And that’s what we can live for – finding the good and making the good that we can, and passing that on to our children instead of the message that to live and be happy you have to participate in mass evil, expoitation, and destruction. There’s my thoughts on the matter… Sam

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Group, I had the news one this evening, and after the 4th story of a kid shooting another kid, I turned it off. What is going on with today’s youth? We have pre-teen kids shooting other pre-teen kids, for no reason (protection of one’s family or loved ones is what I would consider a good reason, if it is life and death.) I see in here people bickering, and do some name-calling, with mainly RBB and Felix doing a "death threat" or two (no offense to you guys/gals – just an example) I have no idea if they mean it, though, or if they would actually be able to say it face to face with M Smith or anyone else. Probly just blowing smoke cuz it’s a newsgroup, and pretty safe from reprisals. Anyway, what really bothers me is the fact kids today will gun you down for stupid reasons: the girl broke up with him, Mommy said no to staying out past curfew, and other BS reasons. Can we do anything about this alarming trend?? It is getting to be more of a serious problem these days, it seems……and there doesn’t seem to be an answer for it. The newsmen didn’t even try to chalk it up to "occult" or "satanism" because the kids were mainly from good christian homes. Anybody have any ideas about this? James Wheat

To: Mr James Wheat and all other readers of Alt.Religion.Wicca Mr. James’s observation has hit the nail right on the head. And I should know. I am from one of the most demographically-charged groups when it comes to this type of thing. I am an african-american male who has grown up not only in the inner city, but in the rough parts of said city. I have had friends of mine get shot for stupid things like a certian type of jacket or shoes, or because someone said the wrong thing to a person. I have heard of parents of my friends being shot because of things like "she wouldn’t let me go out" or "she wouldn’t give me a pair of (insert name brand shoe here)." It is bittersweet for me to say that I have beaten the odds, that I have never been to jail, murdered, anyone, or even severely injured anyone (unless it was in self-defense), thank the Goddess and God, and I have never, ever have either touched a projectile weapon untill i was properly trained in it’s use, or ever drawn such weapon in anger. I say that it is bittersweet, because there were so many kids like myself that didn’t make it. They thought there was no way out for them. i was fortunate. Because of my (supposed) high intelligence, I went to school in the best parts of town, entering into their "gifted" programs, all the way till my graduation from high school. Along the way, i was exposed to a number of enviroments and cultures other than my own. and it was engraned at an early age that all life, no matter what side of town they came from, or what they felt about the world view in general, was sacred, and that none of us, even the people bestowed by our laws to carry that power, has the right to take that away. Simple concept of respect. Respect others as they would have them respect you. I feel that we, as Wiccans (and Pagans in general), have a moral obligation to pass this on not only to our children, but to other people’s children. You may say, "but I could get into legal trouble for telling someone else’s kid what to do", or "why should I worry about somene else’s child (especially when I have my own to worry about?". I say that we have too much at stake for us not to. Nowadays, more and more Wiccan families are urban (let’s face it, there isn’t enough pasture, famland, and forrest to go around nowadays.) ans the chances that it could be your chuld on the recieving end of a life-threating injury because of some "misunderstanding" is too great a chance to take. No one should have to go through the grief of losing a child or best friend because of situations that we, (first as human beings, second as parents, third as Pagans, and fourth as Wiccans) should have, and could have prevented on our own. So, the main question is "what can i do about it?" Well, posting to this newsgroup about the problem and facilitating heathy discussion as to the anwser is a start. from there, do what you feel is the right corse to go. I am active and visible in my old neighborhood (openly as a wiccan, this is no time to hide from religious zealots, our future is at stake), explaining to children who come up to me to talk about the basic concept of life and respect for it. Wether or not they’ll remember it when the time comes, God and Goddess only know. But at least I’ve made an attempt to try and hault the more-than-common problem at hand. You can do no less In conclusion, I ask that each one of you take a look at yourselves, and ask yourself what you can do to hault this tide. One person can not do this alone, but all of us, as a uniting force, can stem the tide with the Godeess and God’s help. As perople who have taken up the charge of the Goddess, abide bt the Rede, and follow the Principals of Wiccan Belief, we can do no less. Feel free to respond, flame, post, etc to this newsgroup on this subject. Merry Meet, Merry Part, untill we Merry Meet again. Dooney Forrestwalker, Leader of the solitary eclectic Circle of the Red Mountian Birmingham, Alabama

Response:

Group, I had the news one this evening, and after the 4th story of a kid shooting another kid, I turned it off. What is going on with today’s youth? We have pre-teen kids shooting other pre-teen kids, for no reason (protection of one’s family or loved ones is what I would consider a good reason, if it is life and death.) I see in here people bickering, and do some name-calling, with mainly RBB and Felix doing a "death threat" or two (no offense to you guys/gals – just an example) I have no idea if they mean it, though, or if they would actually be able to say it face to face with M Smith or anyone else. Probly just blowing smoke cuz it’s a newsgroup, and pretty safe from reprisals. Anyway, what really bothers me is the fact kids today will gun you down for stupid reasons: the girl broke up with him, Mommy said no to staying out past curfew, and other BS reasons. Can we do anything about this alarming trend?? It is getting to be more of a serious problem these days, it seems……and there doesn’t seem to be an answer for it. The newsmen didn’t even try to chalk it up to "occult" or "satanism" because the kids were mainly from good christian homes. Anybody have any ideas about this? James Wheat

Response:

Address: http://christianityqa.com/christian-faith/worried-about-kids-these-days-1819984.html

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