Christianity QA » Christian Faith

Do animals go to heaven?

admin — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

No Animals don’t go to heaven because they don’t have spirit.. The spirit is what makes men and animals differ.

I beg to differ! Most of the animals I’ve known have far finer souls than the likes of YOU!

Response:

And I am one of the christian members, who happens to believ that, as god wrote it, not us, who are we to tell anyone what we think god meant by such and such a verse, taken out of context to prove a point? and wouldn’t god explain it to you, or do you need a whole committee of self-righteous scholars to tell you what they think it means??

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Re: Do animals go to heaven? Of course animals go to heaven, as well as hell. Regardless of what the mainstream believes, animals DO have souls and their souls are eternal as well. Another truth that most Christians are unaware of, is that sometimes animals are the incarnation of HUMAN souls too, depending upon their choices in previous lives. I’m reminded of a delightful Rudyard Kipling story! (Was it "Rikki-Tikki-Tavi"?)

Oh good! I’m not the only crazy person out there who still reads kipling!!!

Response:

What souls are you talking about. The body is the soul itself, not the spirit. Anyway, not all men go to Heaven. They make their choice to go to Hell.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No Animals don’t go to heaven because they don’t have spirit.. The spirit is what makes men and animals differ. I beg to differ! Most of the animals I’ve known have far finer souls than the likes of YOU!

Response:

A gentle reminder folks, the thread is being crossposted, and we know what that leads to (g) a bit of trolling, methinks. How about ignoring the trolls & avoiding crossposting? Cheers, helen s

Response:

Count me in too. Many people today Kipple. He’s unfashionable today, so some are closet Kipplers!

Response:

Re: Do animals go to heaven? Of course animals go to heaven, as well as hell. Regardless of what the mainstream believes, animals DO have souls and their souls are eternal as well. Another truth that most Christians are unaware of, is that sometimes animals are the incarnation of HUMAN souls too, depending upon their choices in previous lives.

I’m reminded of a delightful Rudyard Kipling story! (Was it "Rikki-Tikki-Tavi"?) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Re: Do animals go to heaven? Over here in rec.pets.cats.anecdotes, we like to console each other with comforting stories about a Rainbow Bridge that our pets cross over after death, where they wait for us to die so they can join us in heaven. Is it true, or are we just kidding ourselves? Charlie Charlie, Looks like it is kidding time. The Bible shows us that unreasoning animals were made to die, not live forever. 2 Pe 2:12,

So? SFAIK, ALL living creatures die, "reasoning" or not. (And it’s plain to see you’ve never known any cats intimately, if you consider them "unreasoning" – a lot of them are clever enough to outwit a good many humans!) There are other religions than "fundamentalist" Christianity, and other "holy" books, you know. FYI, even EDUCATED biblical scholars can’t agree on the meaning of much of its contents, what makes YOU such an authority? This newsgroup (rec.pets.cats.anecdotes) has quite a few non-Christian members – Jews and Moslems and Budhists and Sikhs and Wiccans (and atheists, of course). One reason we all get along (most of the time) is that we don’t try to force our personal religious beliefs on the others here. I suggest you follow that example. Religion is a very PERSONAL thing – no one has the right to impose his/her belief system on anyone else. (Particularly when you weren’t invited to do so!)

Response:

No Animals don’t go to heaven because they don’t have spirit.. The spirit is what makes men and animals differ. Animals rely on their own insticts to survive. An animal thousands of years ago when compared to that animal of the same kind today are still doing the same thing. Eagles still build the same nest, beavers build the same dam. Their sexual activity is also instinct. Since man has spirit, it enables him to think, invent, learn new things, can even control the course of nature. create ways to improve himself, but most of all, they are born to love, emotional ,worship God, pray. In Genesis, it says after God has created the earth and everything on it ( including the animals ), He created man IN HIS OWN IMAGE.( with body and spirit)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Re: Do animals go to heaven? Over here in rec.pets.cats.anecdotes, we like to console each other with comforting stories about a Rainbow Bridge that our pets cross over after death, where they wait for us to die so they can join us in heaven. Is it true, or are we just kidding ourselves? Charlie Charlie, Looks like it is kidding time. The Bible shows us that unreasoning animals were made to die, not live forever. 2 Pe 2:12, "But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish." (NIV) Also notice Ps 49:20, "A man who has riches without understanding is like the beasts that perish." (NIV) But did you know that the Bible tells us that not all good people will go to Heaven? For example, how could Jesus’ statement be true here, if ALL the good ones went to Heaven? Mt 5:5, "Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth." (NIV) More on what the Bible has to say on this subject if you are interested. Sincerely, James This is not intended to offend people who follow the Christian faith – I was baptized into it as a young adult but since then have also drawn from other faiths to form my own beliefs. As for the Bible, I don’t view it as a direct pipeline to the word of God. The Bible has been written – and rewritten – by humans, each one of them influenced by personal biases and prevailing attitudes of the day. It’s been translated into countless versions, over and over, down the years, each time at the mercy of the skill – or its lack – of the scholars and translators. Finally, the Bible is taken up by modern-day Christians in its present form and quoted as, well, gospel. Every word. Every concept. Paraded out to make points, or win arguments. Who truly knows if animals are "unreasoning"? Or if there is a heaven – or indeed a rainbow bridge? Some matters are completely beyond our temporal comprehension, and will always be so. Shakespeare’s Hamlet nailed it: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Your view of the Bible coincides with mine, and I’m a regular churchgoer. If you want to quote the Bible, what about the part that says the lion shall lie down with the lamb? If there are lions and lambs, there have to be dogs and cats. Besides, if there are no animals in heaven, I ain’t going! ;-) Joy

ditto!! and if i’m not much mistaken, god would probably clear out too; there’s also mention of trees etc, so i’m looking forward to having a good garden!! Look at st francis of assisi! Now there’s a guy i would have liked!

Response:

Your view of the Bible coincides with mine, and I’m a regular churchgoer. If you want to quote the Bible, what about the part that says the lion shall lie down with the lamb? If there are lions and lambs, there have to be dogs and cats. Besides, if there are no animals in heaven, I ain’t going! ;-) Joy

Response:

Re: Do animals go to heaven?

Of course animals go to heaven, as well as hell. Regardless of what the mainstream believes, animals DO have souls and their souls are eternal as well. Another truth that most Christians are unaware of, is that sometimes animals are the incarnation of HUMAN souls too, depending upon their choices in previous lives. — Dore www.dorewilliamson.com

Response:

I’d have to agree with you on that As a christian, i do believe the bible to be the true word of god etc etc….however i also believe like you, that it is often misinterpreted and ‘edited’ to suit our own world view. I believe that God speaks to everyone, and we shoudln’t judge other’s beliefs or opinions just because ‘this verse in the bible says (or we think it does) it’s wrong’ After all, if the bible was the word of god, who are we to ‘interpret’ what it says? wouldn’t it be beyond our own judgement, and shouldn’t it be used more for our own improvement, instead of ‘Improving’ others? (as I am sure you, as well as myself and many others have been at the recieving end of many times)

Response:

This is not intended to offend people who follow the Christian faith – I was baptized into it as a young adult but since then have also drawn from other faiths to form my own beliefs. As for the Bible, I don’t view it as a direct pipeline to the word of God. The Bible has been written – and rewritten – by humans, each one of them influenced by personal biases and prevailing attitudes of the day. It’s been translated into countless versions, over and over, down the years, each time at the mercy of the skill – or its lack – of the scholars and translators. Finally, the Bible is taken up by modern-day Christians in its present form and quoted as, well, gospel. Every word. Every concept. Paraded out to make points, or win arguments. Who truly knows if animals are "unreasoning"? Or if there is a heaven – or indeed a rainbow bridge? Some matters are completely beyond our temporal comprehension, and will always be so. Shakespeare’s Hamlet nailed it: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Response:

I am afraid I will have to disagree with you here James…in your approach more so than what you have said. I am apractising Christian, and prefer to err on the side of grace rather than judgement. Mainly from the point of view that we ‘interpret’ the scriptures too much to support our own opinions. Our point of view isn’t necessarily the right one; I am not saying the scripture you quoted were incorrect; but as centuries of mis-interpreting scripture to make christianity a male dominated religion has driven many women away, i would be hesitant to ‘pass judgement’ on a subject that is mentioned in so many different ways in the bible. for example; everyone know of the scripture that speaks of heaven "…the lion will lie down with the lamb, etc etc". And to Charlie; a scripture I read was Ecclesiastes chapter 3 verses18-21 if you can find a bible, I suggest you read the whole thin, it may shed a bit of light: but the main one that got to me was verse 20 and 21 from that section: " All go to the same place; all come from the dust and to dust all return. Who knows if the spirit of man rises upwards and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?" These seems to me to be saying ‘who are we to know or decide…it’s just as likely either way…’ ie. it’s known to God, ask him. And as for where you will go after death, I am not going to push any more onto you unless you ask, and will not annoy this group any further with my beliefs. My apology for offending anyone, or off topic posting, however I felt obliged to present another christian point of view from james’…no offense to james, however not everyone sees God the same way.

Response:

Re: Do animals go to heaven? Over here in rec.pets.cats.anecdotes, we like to console each other with comforting stories about a Rainbow Bridge that our pets cross over after death, where they wait for us to die so they can join us in heaven. Is it true, or are we just kidding ourselves? Charlie

Maybe someday mankind will outgrow the need to invent gods and religions and realize that all we have is the earth and each other. If that day ever comes, we can love and respect all species equally. We might even learn to love the Human species instead of constantly striving to make ourselves extinct.

Response:

If you die and you are reunited with your beloved pets it would be heaven. If they weren’t there then I’d say you didn’t go to heaven!!

Response:

Charlie, Looks like it is kidding time. The Bible shows us that unreasoning animals were made to die, not live forever. 2 Pe 2:12, "But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish." (NIV) Also notice Ps 49:20, "A man who has riches without understanding is like the beasts that perish." (NIV) But did you know that the Bible tells us that not all good people will go to Heaven? For example, how could Jesus’ statement be true here, if ALL the good ones went to Heaven? Mt 5:5, "Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth." (NIV) More on what the Bible has to say on this subject if you are interested. Sincerely, James

Response:

Over here in rec.pets.cats.anecdotes, we like to console each other with comforting stories about a Rainbow Bridge that our pets cross over after death, where they wait for us to die so they can join us in heaven. Is it true, or are we just kidding ourselves?

Hmmmm…. Why don’t you try to cross it, and let us know from the other side?

Response:

LOL thanks Charlie, I needed this laugh today, say hi to Tweakers and Holly for me, I still love his stripes

Response:

I have read a number of accounts of "near death experiences" and all of them mention the presence of pets on the other side. Why would God create such extraordinary creatures if He didn’t want us to reunite with them.

I don’t know. Why did God create dracunculiasis? http://asylumeclectica.com/malady/archives/dracun.htm Charlie

Response:

For the purposes of rec.pets.cats.anecdote, what does it matter? As long as it makes you feel better, do it, think it, believe it.

Response:

I was watching world renouned tel-evangelist John Hagee one day and he said that he firmly believed that there will be a place in heaven for pets and I believe him. http://members.aol.com/larrystark/ http://members.aol.com/larrystark/strays.htm

Response:

Christian Christianity strikes again

admin — Sat, 07 May 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

wrote in message

news:11363-427EA37A-327@storefull-3233.bay.webtv.net… > Dang…so privayization is way for the rich to get rcher and for our > federalist government to desert the poor.

the median family income is $45,000 per year. i believe those people, the lower middle, middle, and upper middle would all benefit from partial privatization. m.

Response:

"Cymbal Man Freq." wrote in message news:0zcfe.12692$eU.7280@twister.nyroc.rr.com > All those faith-based initiatives to help the poor will go nowhere > because there are so few poor devout Republicans?

Last update: May 8, 2005 at 9:11 AM Most faith-based grants went to the usual groups Kevin Diaz, Star Tribune Washington Bureau Correspondent May 8, 2005 WASHINGTON, D.C. — Since the White House’s Faith-Based and Community Initiatives started a neighborhood-level grant program over a year ago, more than $730,000 has flowed to dozens of grass-roots poverty groups in Minnesota that never got federal funds before. Still, according to numbers just released by the White House, the new money is but a small part of the $18.5 million in federal grants that went last year to 36 traditional church-affiliated charities in Minnesota, many of which have been getting federal money for decades. Of that, less than 5 percent went to non-Christian faith groups, much of it in grants to Jewish Family and Children’s Services and Elim Transitional Housing. Moreover, much of the money that the White House characterizes as faith-based went to charities such as Lutheran Social Service, Catholic Charities and other large organizations that say their government funding had nothing to do with the White House’s initiative. The White House report counts grants made by seven federal agencies to groups with religious names or affiliations. But in some cases, the groups do not consider their social service contracts — for programs such as housing and HIV/AIDS prevention — to be "faith-based." Some traditional church-affiliated social service providers say the faith-based initiative might even have cost them money, as the White House reaches out to smaller, community-based groups. "There has been very little new money," said Gary Reierson, president of the Greater Minneapolis Council of Churches, which works with small religious and community groups such as St. James African Methodist Episcopal Church in south Minneapolis, which got a $7,400 grant last year for its prison ministry program. "It was a big deal for us, because we’re so small," said the Rev. Marchelle Hallman, pastor of St. James, Minnesota’s oldest black church. But the overall distribution of money to church-affiliated groups in Minnesota shows how far the White House has to go to fulfill two basic promises made by President Bush: that the faith-based initiative would reach "beyond those great, courageous faith-based programs," such as the Salvation Army and Catholic Charities, and that "the faith-based initiative is not about a single faith." White House officials call the program a success, even if Congress has snagged on the issue of church-state separation, which has kept Minnesota’s best-known practitioner of religious charity, Mary Jo Copeland, out of the hunt for federal money. "I don’t like to take the government restrictions that come with it," said Copeland, whose Sharing and Caring Hands shelter in Minneapolis has been cited by Bush as a model for private, faith-based compassion. Nationally, federal funding for groups with religious affiliations reached $2 billion last year, up from $1.2 billion the year before. Minnesota’s $18.5 million represents an increase of 35 percent over 2003. But at the same time, traditional faith-based charities, which provide the bulk of services performed by faith groups in Minnesota, say the White House initiative to increase funding for faith groups has made little difference to them. For example, a number of Lutheran Social Service agencies in Minnesota received a total of $1.5 million last year, according to the White House. Much of the money went to programs such as street outreach, HIV/AIDS prevention and transitional living centers. "What’s peculiar is to reframe that as faith-based-initiative money," said Mark Peterson, president and CEO of Lutheran Social Service, the state’s largest religiously affiliated charity. Catholic Charities of Minneapolis and St. Paul received nearly $1.3 million in federal grants last year. But despite "the initial excitement and buzz," none of it came from the White House’s faith-based grant program, according to spokeswoman Mary Beth Hanson. The Evangelical Lutheran Good Samaritan Society, with 45 senior centers in Minnesota, got more than $4.4 million for a new housing complex in Inver Grove Heights, the largest allotment in the state. Do we receive money because we’re a faith-based organization? Probably not," said spokesman Mark Dickerson. "It’s because we’re the nation’s largest not-for-profit organization providing senior housing and long-term care," he said. Jim Towey, director of the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives, said that’s as it should be. "The president wants the focus to be on results, not religion," he said. Towey, who was once Mother Teresa’s lawyer, said it would be unconstitutional to grant money based on faith affiliation alone. Nor can it be used for religious purposes. The thrust of the White House effort, he said, has been simply not to exclude social service providers because of their religious identities. That means removing barriers to a lot of small groups such as St. James church in south Minneapolis. "You’re seeing a lot of new players beginning to break through," Towey said. Much of the new faith-based money in Minnesota has gone though the Minnesota Council of Churches, one of only 10 "intermediary" organizations in the nation that coordinate "compassion capital" grants to first-time recipients. This year the council has announced $387,500 in grants to 31 Twin Cities groups. Last May the council channeled $342,600 to 40 groups, many of them interdenominational or secular community groups. Of that, a bit less than $30,000 went to non-Christian faith groups, including Masjid An-Nur, an Islamic organization that runs a health group in north Minneapolis, and a nutritional awareness program sponsored by Kenesseth Israel, a Jewish congregation in St. Louis Park. Rep. Jim Ramstad, R-Minn., who helped put Copeland onto the national stage with Bush, says that while he’d like to see the faith-based grants spread out across a wider spectrum, it’s been a good start. "At the very least, we’re finally ending discrimination against people of faith who help people in need," he said. "I think that’s a huge accomplishment."

Response:

So…… If I make 60,000 a year my social security checks will be way high under Bush’s program. And if I’m poor ….. Republican policy is clearly to alienate the poor from the rich. His destruction of social programs, over burdening the cities like with the unfunded no child left behind program so their social programs will hard stressed, and his various wars taxing the budget while he gives away tax money to the rich. Now he is planning to highlight the haves from the havenots by this "privitization’ of social security. It sounds like desertion to me, not privatization. One thing abot Bush, he’s following the identical recipe we followed in Viet-Nam. But he’s doing it much faster. Of course his unconscious intent is to destroy our political unity as a nation. Its just screams at me that this is being done on purpose. Dang…so privayization is way for the rich to get rcher and for our federalist government to desert the poor.

Response:

"Just Me" wrote in message

news:Nftfe.10288$BE3.3481@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net… > On 9/11, the world changed that day, it will never be the same for a long > time to come. The stock market is not the same as years ago. But I’ve > heard that the average American these days is putting any money they can > get their hands on into the market. Not me. > The stock market is evolving into something like a farm where you get > plants growing some and then you harvest them when they grow high. And > then next year they start out growing low and grow high and then you > harvest your yields again. So your 401(k) plan is really more like > somebody else’s little farm that they harvest the money as you work hard > and continually add to it.

It bears repeating: Too many people in the stock market are speculators. They want to buy shares, wait a few weeks for them to go up a couple of dollars, then dump them for a quick profit. If I had money to buy stocks, I’d buy them as true investments, which means for the long term. I would buy shares only in companies that do something I believed in or that I had some kind of connection to (such as the bank where I have personal accounts). I would attend shareholder meetings, review financial statements, keep track of senior officers and directors and what they do, study the sales and supply chains, etc. If enough people who own a stock do those things, the share price is almost guaranteed to grow. If people don’t give a shit about the actual company they’re investing in, the share price will go up and down like a yoyo. Miki

Response:

On 9/11, the world changed that day, it will never be the same for a long time to come. The stock market is not the same as years ago. But I’ve heard that the average American these days is putting any money they can get their hands on into the market. Not me. The stock market is evolving into something like a farm where you get plants growing some and then you harvest them when they grow high. And then next year they start out growing low and grow high and then you harvest your yields again. So your 401(k) plan is really more like somebody else’s little farm that they harvest the money as you work hard and continually add to it. "gravity" wrote in message

news:427d874b_1@x-privat.org… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Cymbal Man Freq." wrote in > message news:zCffe.12715$eU.11720@twister.nyroc.rr.com… >> "Just Me" wrote in message >> news:89ffe.10497$HL2.5859@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net >> > I’ve come to believe that the stock market investment has a long >> > history of being excellent over the long-term and you can even just >> > about predict what your money will do over 30 years based on past >> > trends, but one thing has changed all of that– and that’s 9/11. >> And Xerox’s stock fell 90% in 2-3 years and all the workers’ there had to > invest >> in Xerox and no place else with their pension system. So you’ve got > hundreds of >> thousands of workers invested in a stock that tanked and they had no way > out. >> They lost their jobs and their retirement. > apparently they are having trouble paying the money, and have been taken > to > court. it’s called a cash-balance pension plan. > i worked for one place with a partially matched 401k. i should have taken > advantage of it. i have made some bad investment decisions. > m.

Response:

"Cymbal Man Freq." wrote in message news:zCffe.12715$eU.11720@twister.nyroc.rr.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Just Me" wrote in message > news:89ffe.10497$HL2.5859@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net > > I’ve come to believe that the stock market investment has a long > > history of being excellent over the long-term and you can even just > > about predict what your money will do over 30 years based on past > > trends, but one thing has changed all of that– and that’s 9/11. > And Xerox’s stock fell 90% in 2-3 years and all the workers’ there had to invest > in Xerox and no place else with their pension system. So you’ve got hundreds of > thousands of workers invested in a stock that tanked and they had no way out. > They lost their jobs and their retirement.

apparently they are having trouble paying the money, and have been taken to court. it’s called a cash-balance pension plan. i worked for one place with a partially matched 401k. i should have taken advantage of it. i have made some bad investment decisions. m.

Response:

"Just Me" wrote in message

news:89ffe.10497$HL2.5859@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net > I’ve come to believe that the stock market investment has a long > history of being excellent over the long-term and you can even just > about predict what your money will do over 30 years based on past > trends, but one thing has changed all of that– and that’s 9/11.

And Xerox’s stock fell 90% in 2-3 years and all the workers’ there had to invest in Xerox and no place else with their pension system. So you’ve got hundreds of thousands of workers invested in a stock that tanked and they had no way out. They lost their jobs and their retirement.

Response:

"Just Me" wrote in message

news:j1ffe.10072$BE3.8893@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net… > Yes, he may say he only wants to convert 2% to the stock market and that’s > the best he can do right now, BUT the bottom line Bush has about Social > Security is that the government has no business running a national > retirement plan.

i’m not sure how Bush feels about it. it’s been an American institution for decades. it would be impossible to totally get rid of it, no? would take centuries. a partial privitization would help me in the long run, if i work my whole life. a partial socialization would help me if i become disabled. i like to hedge my bets. ;-) i don’t want to see homeless old people. that would be very bad. a lot of people make big financial blunders or become spendthrifts. they need the SS money. on the other hand, some old people do reverse mortages and get into big credit card debt. no amount of SS will help them if they are that far under. (just declare bankruptcy!) i may or may not work the rest of my life, so i dunno how policy changes will affect me personally. some degree of humility is needed, as even the mightiest can fall. m.

Response:

"Just Me" wrote in message

news:89ffe.10497$HL2.5859@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net… > I’ve come to believe that the stock market investment has a long history of > being excellent over the long-term and you can even just about predict what > your money will do over 30 years based on past trends, but one thing has > changed all of that– and that’s 9/11.

did you track the numbers from 10 years before to 4 years after 9/11? everyone (and i do mean everyone) feels the stock market is for long term investments. pointing out figures from 2002 or even 2004 is hardly damning. i’ll pull up the DJIA and S&P and post the figures tomorrow. m.

Response:

"gravity" wrote in message

news:427d7fe2_1@x-privat.org… > did you track the numbers from 10 years before to 4 years after 9/11? > everyone (and i do mean everyone) feels the stock market is for long term > investments. pointing out figures from 2002 or even 2004 is hardly damning. > i’ll pull up the DJIA and S&P and post the figures tomorrow.

i retract this post. m.

Response:

I’ve come to believe that the stock market investment has a long history of being excellent over the long-term and you can even just about predict what your money will do over 30 years based on past trends, but one thing has changed all of that– and that’s 9/11. "gravity" wrote in message

news:427d7bd1_1@x-privat.org… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Just Me" wrote in message > news:8pdfe.10042$BE3.6177@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net… >> Our government is actually about 20% a socialist system and about 80% >> free >> enterprise. > well said. i agree no system (or good system) is 100% socialist or 100% > free enterprise. even Thomas Jefferson warned about the problems with > banks > and companies in charge of all the money. (Chomsky stated this in an > essay. > i haven’t confirmed the exact quote.). > the summary of Bush’s plan (as i see it) is that around 1/3 of the current > SS figure would be privatized. the end result of partial privatization is > staggering: > "Advocates of privatization have long criticized Social Security for lower > returns than the returns available from other investments, and cite > numbers > based on historical performance. The Heritage Foundation, a conservative > think tank, calculates that a 40 year old male with an income just under > $60,000, will contribute $284,360 in payroll taxes to the Trust Fund over > his working life, and can expect to receive $2208 per month under the > current program. They claim that the same 40 year old male, investing the > same $284,360 equally weighted into treasuries and high-grade corporate > bonds over his working life, would own a PRA at retirement worth $904,982 > and paying an annuity of up to $7372 per month." > i can believe these figures as one of my funds increased 40% in 18 months. > 7 to 10% apr is quite common. > source: wikipedia > m.

Response:

Yes, he may say he only wants to convert 2% to the stock market and that’s the best he can do right now, BUT the bottom line Bush has about Social Security is that the government has no business running a national retirement plan. "gravity" wrote in message

news:427d7a5a_1@x-privat.org… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Just Me" wrote in message > news:8pdfe.10042$BE3.6177@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net… >> help from your family and church unless you were carrying a private >> disability policy. And of course, having a national health care system >> would be the last thing Bush would want to do because it would increase > the >> 20% to 25% or so. The bottom line Bush has about Social Security is that >> the government has no business running a national retirement plan. > ok, i found some partial answers. SS and Medicare currently take out > 15.2% > of a check (1/2 employer side, 1/2 employee side). this is mainly or > wholly > on the first $90,000 of income (i.e. the average reader of alt.sup.sz > would > pay this figure). Bush’s plan is to take 4 percentage points of the > paycheck and put that into privatization. some countries already have a > partially or wholly privatized system e.g. United Kingdom, Sweden, Chile. > Social Security didn’t used to take out as much. it was initally 2% of > the > first $3,000 earned. so FDR has little to do with the current figure. > sources: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_(United_States) > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_debate_%28United_States%29 > m.

Response:

"Just Me" wrote in message

news:8pdfe.10042$BE3.6177@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net… > Our government is actually about 20% a socialist system and about 80% free > enterprise.

well said. i agree no system (or good system) is 100% socialist or 100% free enterprise. even Thomas Jefferson warned about the problems with banks and companies in charge of all the money. (Chomsky stated this in an essay. i haven’t confirmed the exact quote.). the summary of Bush’s plan (as i see it) is that around 1/3 of the current SS figure would be privatized. the end result of partial privatization is staggering: "Advocates of privatization have long criticized Social Security for lower returns than the returns available from other investments, and cite numbers based on historical performance. The Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank, calculates that a 40 year old male with an income just under $60,000, will contribute $284,360 in payroll taxes to the Trust Fund over his working life, and can expect to receive $2208 per month under the current program. They claim that the same 40 year old male, investing the same $284,360 equally weighted into treasuries and high-grade corporate bonds over his working life, would own a PRA at retirement worth $904,982 and paying an annuity of up to $7372 per month." i can believe these figures as one of my funds increased 40% in 18 months. 7 to 10% apr is quite common. source: wikipedia m.

Response:

i guess i should ask a question. when Bush said 2% or so, i thought he meant of the total SS money withdrawn from the paycheck. but he may mean 2% as in 1/3 plus of the 7.25%. i will do some Googling. m.

Response:

"Just Me" wrote in message

news:8pdfe.10042$BE3.6177@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net… > help from your family and church unless you were carrying a private > disability policy. And of course, having a national health care system > would be the last thing Bush would want to do because it would increase the > 20% to 25% or so. The bottom line Bush has about Social Security is that > the government has no business running a national retirement plan.

ok, i found some partial answers. SS and Medicare currently take out 15.2% of a check (1/2 employer side, 1/2 employee side). this is mainly or wholly on the first $90,000 of income (i.e. the average reader of alt.sup.sz would pay this figure). Bush’s plan is to take 4 percentage points of the paycheck and put that into privatization. some countries already have a partially or wholly privatized system e.g. United Kingdom, Sweden, Chile. Social Security didn’t used to take out as much. it was initally 2% of the first $3,000 earned. so FDR has little to do with the current figure. sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_(United_States) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_debate_%28United_States%29 m.

Response:

"Just Me" wrote in message

FDR said, "they’ll never get rid of this" or something similar. it’s so tied into salary and retirement that it can’t be privatized for decades. i believe Bush’s plan is to privatize a small portion like 2%. now 2% may well turn into a big pile of cash, but you’ll still have 98% going into traditional social security. the reason the 2% is so valuable is that the S&P increases at a rate of about 7%. good investments can mean a return of 10% or more. someone like me who is young and likes the idea of stocks would come out very well. other people may not like the "partial" privatization. anyone have specifics on Bush’s plan (e.g. 2% figure)? m.

Response:

Our government is actually about 20% a socialist system and about 80% free enterprise. We aren’t 100% free enterprise and I think when Russia was communist, it wasn’t 100% communist either. I guess you could say that Bush and his party want to shrink down that 20% that’s socialist and the Democrats want to keep it the same or add just a little. I don’t think that many Americans realize that we are 20% socialism. In the socialist society, the government would be allowed to run a retirement plan for all citizens, a public plan. And have programs for the poor, especially woman and children. If America was 100% free enterprise, we’d have none of those. You would have to get your retirement plan from Mutual of Omaha or similar. And if you were disabled, you would have to get help from your family and church unless you were carrying a private disability policy. And of course, having a national health care system would be the last thing Bush would want to do because it would increase the 20% to 25% or so. The bottom line Bush has about Social Security is that the government has no business running a national retirement plan. "gravity" wrote in message

news:427d5866_1@x-privat.org… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Cymbal Man Freq." wrote in > message news:0zcfe.12692$eU.7280@twister.nyroc.rr.com… >> All those faith-based initiatives to help the poor will go nowhere >> because > there >> are so few poor devout Republicans? > anyone who uses social programs would have trouble being an honest > Republican. it’s hard to be poor and avoid social programs. > m.

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All those faith-based initiatives to help the poor will go nowhere because there are so few poor devout Republicans?

Response:

"Cymbal Man Freq." wrote in message news:0zcfe.12692$eU.7280@twister.nyroc.rr.com… > All those faith-based initiatives to help the poor will go nowhere because there > are so few poor devout Republicans?

anyone who uses social programs would have trouble being an honest Republican. it’s hard to be poor and avoid social programs. m.

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So if a Republican gets caught committing fraud in a gov’t program, they can plead insanity because of their religious & political beliefs?

Response:

wrote in message

news:10519-427D0521-6@storefull-3236.bay.webtv.net… > Members of the small East Waynesville Baptist Church say Chandler led an > effort to kick out congregants who didn’t support President Bush.

i wouldn’t want to be a part of any political party (or Church) that would have me as a member. most Baptists aren’t that conservative. m.

Response:

MSNBC The Associated Press WAYNESVILLE, N.C. – Some in Pastor Chan Chandler’s flock wish he had a little less zeal for the GOP. Members of the small East Waynesville Baptist Church say Chandler led an effort to kick out congregants who didn’t support President Bush. Nine members were voted out at a Monday church meeting in this mountain town, about 120 miles west of Charlotte. "He’s the kind of pastor who says do it my way or get out," said Selma Morris, the former church treasurer. "He’s real negative all the time." Chandler didn’t return a message left by The Associated Press at his home Friday, and several calls to the church went unanswered. He told WLOS-TV in Asheville that the actions were not politically motivated. The station also reported that 40 others in the 400-member congregation resigned in protest after Monday’s vote. During the presidential election last year, Chandler told the congregation that anyone who planned to vote for Democratic Sen. John Kerry should either leave the church or repent, said former member Lorene Sutton. Some church members left after Chandler made his ultimatum in October, Morris said. George Bullard, associate executive director-treasurer for Baptist State Convention of North Carolina, told the Asheville Citizen-Times that a pastor has every right to disallow memberships if a church’s bylaws allow for the pastor to establish criteria for membership. "Membership is a local church issue," he said. "It is not something the state convention would enter into." He added that the nine members were not legally terminated because Monday’s meeting was supposed to be a deacons meeting, not a business meeting. They have a lawyer looking into the situation, he said. The head of the North Carolina Democratic Party sharply criticized the pastor Friday, saying Chandler jeopardized his church’s tax-free status by openly supporting a candidate for president. "If these reports are true, this minister is not only acting extremely inappropriately by injecting partisan politics into a house of worship, but he is also potentially breaking the law," Chairman Jerry Meek said. Doris Wilson, one of Chandler’s neighbors and a member of First Baptist Church in Waynesville, said God doesn’t play partisan politics. "I hate to see the church suffer like that," she said. "God doesn’t care whether you’re a Republican or a Democrat. It just hurts to see that going on."

Response:

Daily Gosho Passage – May 1

admin — Sat, 30 Apr 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

"Waterspider" wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Alias" wrote >> Nam – Myoho – Renge – Kyo >> One therefore must always consider the country when propagating the >> Buddhist teachings. One should not assume that a teaching suited to >> one country must necessarily be suited to another as well. >> Encouragement to a Sick Person >> MWND, Vol. VI, p. 28 >> Nam – Myoho – Renge – Kyo > Alias m’dear, did you read this before posting it? This is a worldwide > web… all countries. Get it? > Waterspider

Waterspider, m’dear, it’s not a problem. Last time I checked, no one on this board is Japanese or a practitioner of a heretical Buddhist sect. Every poster here is either a Christian or from a Christian background. Get it? Heh. Alias

Response:

"Alias" wrote in message

news:1G2de.36624$dr.4894@news.ono.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Waterspider" wrote >> "Alias" wrote >>> Nam – Myoho – Renge – Kyo >>> One therefore must always consider the country when propagating the >>> Buddhist teachings. One should not assume that a teaching suited to >>> one country must necessarily be suited to another as well. >>> Encouragement to a Sick Person >>> MWND, Vol. VI, p. 28 >>> Nam – Myoho – Renge – Kyo >> Alias m’dear, did you read this before posting it? This is a worldwide >> web… all countries. Get it? >> Waterspider > Waterspider, m’dear, it’s not a problem. Last time I checked, no one on > this board is Japanese or a practitioner of a heretical Buddhist sect. > Every poster here is either a Christian or from a Christian background. > Get it? > Heh. > Alias

Yeah, but… doesn’t the passage say (indirectly and among other things, of course) that it isn’t likely suitable to those of a Christian faith or background? My apologies if I’ve totally missed the point. It wouldn’t be the first time Waterspider

Response:

"Waterspider" wrote in message

news:PB8de.41746$3V3.39555@edtnps89… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Alias" wrote in message > news:1G2de.36624$dr.4894@news.ono.com… >> "Waterspider" wrote >>> "Alias" wrote >>>> Nam – Myoho – Renge – Kyo >>>> One therefore must always consider the country when propagating the >>>> Buddhist teachings. One should not assume that a teaching suited to >>>> one country must necessarily be suited to another as well. >>>> Encouragement to a Sick Person >>>> MWND, Vol. VI, p. 28 >>>> Nam – Myoho – Renge – Kyo >>> Alias m’dear, did you read this before posting it? This is a worldwide >>> web… all countries. Get it? >>> Waterspider >> Waterspider, m’dear, it’s not a problem. Last time I checked, no one on >> this board is Japanese or a practitioner of a heretical Buddhist sect. >> Every poster here is either a Christian or from a Christian background. >> Get it? >> Heh. >> Alias > Yeah, but… doesn’t the passage say (indirectly and among other things, > of course) that it isn’t likely suitable to those of a Christian faith or > background? My apologies if I’ve totally missed the point. It wouldn’t be > the first time > Waterspider

There are two methods of propagation: Shoju and Shakubuku. One is stronger than the other and each is used depending on the country, society, religion, etc. where it is to be spread. Alias

Response:

"Alias" wrote in message

news:0DUce.40150$US.18432@news.ono.com… > Nam – Myoho – Renge – Kyo > One therefore must always consider the country when propagating the > Buddhist teachings. One should not assume that a teaching suited to > one country must necessarily be suited to another as well. > Encouragement to a Sick Person > MWND, Vol. VI, p. 28 > Nam – Myoho – Renge – Kyo

Amen.

Response:

Nam – Myoho – Renge – Kyo One therefore must always consider the country when propagating the Buddhist teachings. One should not assume that a teaching suited to one country must necessarily be suited to another as well. Encouragement to a Sick Person MWND, Vol. VI, p. 28 Nam – Myoho – Renge – Kyo

Response:

"Alias" wrote in message

Alias m’dear, did you read this before posting it? This is a worldwide web… all countries. Get it? Waterspider

Response:

To Those WHo Celebrate Easter

admin — Fri, 25 Mar 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Hi ya MM! My Mom always said "Better late than never"! Sooo how ya been girl? Hugs, ~Sage

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – said: Hope everyone had a nice Easter. I know I’m late with it, as I am in everything. MM (((((Susan))))), Happy Easter to you! Hugs, ~Sage To all who celebrate Easter, I wish you all a Happy Easter. I hope today and through the weekend that you have no headaches and if you get a headache, I wish you less frequent and less severe ones. Have a wonderful time with your families! If the Easter Bunny comes, would you mind giving me one piece of candy? Please, pretty please? The Bunny doesn’t come visit me(I’m Jewish). Susan —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—-

—-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—-

Response:

said: Hope everyone had a nice Easter. I know I’m late with it, as I am in everything. MM – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -(((((Susan))))), Happy Easter to you! Hugs, ~Sage To all who celebrate Easter, I wish you all a Happy Easter. I hope today and through the weekend that you have no headaches and if you get a headache, I wish you less frequent and less severe ones. Have a wonderful time with your families! If the Easter Bunny comes, would you mind giving me one piece of candy? Please, pretty please? The Bunny doesn’t come visit me(I’m Jewish). Susan —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—-

Response:

(((((Susan))))), Happy Easter to you! Hugs, ~Sage

To all who celebrate Easter, I wish you all a Happy Easter. I hope today and through the weekend that you have no headaches and if you get a headache, I wish you less frequent and less severe ones. Have a wonderful time with your families! If the Easter Bunny comes, would you mind giving me one piece of candy? Please, pretty please? The Bunny doesn’t come visit me(I’m Jewish). Susan

Response:

Thank you for the thought. I am Christian and celebrate Easter in a different sense, but I still make a wonderful Easter basket full of candy for work every year. Just can’t pass the opportunity. Michelle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To all who celebrate Easter, I wish you all a Happy Easter. I hope today and through the weekend that you have no headaches and if you get a headache, I wish you less frequent and less severe ones. Have a wonderful time with your families! If the Easter Bunny comes, would you mind giving me one piece of candy? Please, pretty please? The Bunny doesn’t come visit me(I’m Jewish). Susan

Response:

I will save a chocolate egg for you Susan! My family always has them this time of year – yum Jane in AZ *Courage is the power to let go of the familiar*

Response:

I’m so glad you thought of it mk! Send the pics to:

Silly me- I should just send the bunnies in the basket to you to put on the pets page. Where do I send it again? mk —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—-

Response:

Thanks Susan! You’re a dear! MK… Those bunnies are so sweet, I think I just gained 6 pounds!!! Liz that is very sweet of you Susan. But I am of the opinion that the Easter Bunny is not Christian, so though you do not celebrate an Easter mass or other service of that type I don’t see why there is any reason an Easter bunny can’t fill a spring basket with goodies for you!! By the way, If any one wants to see a picture of our little bunnies-the balance of the tragedy and trauma filled litter– they are three and a half weeks old now- we are going to take photos this afternoon- let me know!! mk To all who celebrate Easter, I wish you all a Happy Easter. I hope today and through the weekend that you have no headaches and if you get a headache, I wish you less frequent and less severe ones. Have a wonderful time with your families! If the Easter Bunny comes, would you mind giving me one piece of candy? Please, pretty please? The Bunny doesn’t come visit me(I’m Jewish). Susan

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Silly me- I should just send the bunnies in the basket to you to put on the pets page. Where do I send it again? mk

Response:

that is very sweet of you Susan. But I am of the opinion that the Easter Bunny is not Christian, so though you do not celebrate an Easter mass or other service of that type I don’t see why there is any reason an Easter bunny can’t fill a spring basket with goodies for you!! By the way, If any one wants to see a picture of our little bunnies-the balance of the tragedy and trauma filled litter– they are three and a half weeks old now- we are going to take photos this afternoon- let me know!! mk To all who celebrate Easter, I wish you all a Happy Easter. I hope today and through the weekend that you have no headaches and if you get a headache, I wish you less frequent and less severe ones. Have a wonderful time with your families! If the Easter Bunny comes, would you mind giving me one piece of candy? Please, pretty please? The Bunny doesn’t come visit me(I’m Jewish). Susan

Response:

wrote something wonderfully witty: To all who celebrate Easter, I wish you all a Happy Easter. I hope today and through the weekend that you have no headaches and if you get a headache, I wish you less frequent and less severe ones. Have a wonderful time with your families! If the Easter Bunny comes, would you mind giving me one piece of candy? Please, pretty please? The Bunny doesn’t come visit me(I’m Jewish). Susan

One chocolate Minora on it’s way. BTW — Mr Bunny has absolutely nothing to do with the Christian faith in any way. He is very much non-demonational. Susssh don’t tell anybody, but he is a figment.

Response:

Susan, What a kind and thoughtful post. Thank you very much. I usually don’t work during this weekend as it’s holy for me, but since I have book edits to finish, I must work. I stopped by here this morning, and your post has brightened my day. with thanks, hugs, and blessings, Teri

| To all who celebrate Easter, | | I wish you all a Happy Easter. I hope today and through the weekend | that you have no headaches and if you get a headache, I wish you less | frequent and less severe ones. Have a wonderful time with your | families! | | If the Easter Bunny comes, would you mind giving me one piece of candy? | Please, pretty please? The Bunny doesn’t come visit me(I’m Jewish). | | Susan |

Response:

Men who have Embraced Islam

admin — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

It needs a reformation

Along with a Renaissance and an Age of Enlightenment —

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Men who have Embraced Islam There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower [Qur'an 2:256] The following is a collection of converts’ stories which are enlightening, heart-warming and inspiring in equal measure. These new Muslims come from a variety of backgrounds. They include intellectuals, scientists, priests, and artists, young and old, from around the globe. Most of these converts are former Christians or from a Christian background. These testimonies only represent a drop in the ocean however, since every day hundreds of people convert to Islam all around the world. Amongst the most powerful and thought-provoking testimonies are those of former Christian priests and missionaries who have discovered the one true religion. ‘Revert’ is actually a more appropriate term than ‘convert’, since all human beings are born pure. By embracing Islam, one returns to the original and sinless state in which God created him or her. However we have used the term convert to avoid any possible ambiguity. http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/ How do I put this? There is much in Islam that I admire. Let me make that statement first in case reading the rest of my post leads anyone to think that I am out and out anti-Islam. For example, I agree very much with Muslims understanding that much of our western society is very shallow, but disagree to some extent on what the remedy is. Perhaps the biggest moral wrong, as opposed to intellectual error, that I see in Islam is hypocrisy in its handling of converts. Muslims, like any other religious group are pleased and encouraged when someone joins their faith. Muslims see this as someone coming back to God. Christians feel the same way about someone becoming a Christian. In fact the bible tells us that there is a knees-up in heaven when even one sinner repents (Luke 15.10). I too can understand the desire to help believers remain believers, but there is a fundamental difference between the Christian faith and Islam on how to do this. Islam claims to be a "reasonable" faith, i.e. one that makes sense, that you can use reason to help understand it. So good so far, but when someone disagrees with the intellectual correctness of Islam, this is where it all goes horribly wrong. Islam as a faith is inconsistent in its claims here. Islam is happy to convince me that Islam is correct, but what if 1) I change my mind and decide that Islam is wrong and some other faith or atheism is correct? 2) What if I am born in a Muslim-majority/Sharia-compliant society? The truth is that Islam then gives up on being reasonable and acts like a cult or worse. Its answer is for me to lose my family, my possessions and quite possibly my life. The idea that "there is no compulsion in religion" becomes, well, a bit silly and quoting the Qu’ran 2.256 is pointless. If ever Islam as a whole truly allowed people to make up their minds without fear of violence, then perhaps more people would give it the respect it deserves for some of its other ideas. As it is, many people can’t do that as they are afraid of it. Alan Cossey

It needs a reformation

Response:

How do I put this? There is much in Islam that I admire. Let me make that statement first in case reading the rest of my post leads anyone to think that I am out and out anti-Islam. For example, I agree very much with Muslims understanding that much of our western society is very shallow, but disagree to some extent on what the remedy is. Perhaps the biggest moral wrong, as opposed to intellectual error, that I see in Islam is hypocrisy in its handling of converts. Muslims, like any other religious group are pleased and encouraged when someone joins their faith. Muslims see this as someone coming back to God. Christians feel the same way about someone becoming a Christian. In fact the bible tells us that there is a knees-up in heaven when even one sinner repents (Luke 15.10). I too can understand the desire to help believers remain believers, but there is a fundamental difference between the Christian faith and Islam on how to do this. Islam claims to be a "reasonable" faith, i.e. one that makes sense, that you can use reason to help understand it. So good so far, but when someone disagrees with the intellectual correctness of Islam, this is where it all goes horribly wrong. Islam as a faith is inconsistent in its claims here. Islam is happy to convince me that Islam is correct, but what if 1) I change my mind and decide that Islam is wrong and some other faith or atheism is correct? 2) What if I am born in a Muslim-majority/Sharia-compliant society? The truth is that Islam then gives up on being reasonable and acts like a cult or worse. Its answer is for me to lose my family, my possessions and quite possibly my life. The idea that "there is no compulsion in religion" becomes, well, a bit silly and quoting the Qu’ran 2.256 is pointless. If ever Islam as a whole truly allowed people to make up their minds without fear of violence, then perhaps more people would give it the respect it deserves for some of its other ideas. As it is, many people can’t do that as they are afraid of it. Alan Cossey

Response:

‘Revert’ is actually a more appropriate term than ‘convert’, since all human beings are born pure. By embracing Islam, one returns to the original and sinless state in which God created him or her. However we have used the term convert to avoid any possible ambiguity.

Still spewing your shit ?

Response:

Men who have Embraced Islam There is no compulsion in religion.

Once you have your throat slit for leaving Islam, there is "no compulsion" in anything. In fact, most corpses don’t feel a thing!

Response:

Men who have Embraced Islam There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower [Qur'an 2:256] The following is a collection of converts’ stories which are enlightening, heart-warming and inspiring in equal measure. These new Muslims come from a variety of backgrounds. They include intellectuals, scientists, priests, and artists, young and old, from around the globe. Most of these converts are former Christians or from a Christian background. These testimonies only represent a drop in the ocean however, since every day hundreds of people convert to Islam all around the world. Amongst the most powerful and thought-provoking testimonies are those of former Christian priests and missionaries who have discovered the one true religion. ‘Revert’ is actually a more appropriate term than ‘convert’, since all human beings are born pure. By embracing Islam, one returns to the original and sinless state in which God created him or her. However we have used the term convert to avoid any possible ambiguity. http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/

Response:

Daily Radio call-in program with marriage concerns

admin — Mon, 07 Feb 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tony Miller wrote: > On 8 Feb 2005 10:37:29 -0800, MsLiz > wrote: > > Tony Miller wrote: > >> On 7 Feb 2005 19:45:11 -0800, MsLiz > >> wrote: > >> > Decency Advocate wrote: > >> >> Thought some of you folks in here would like info on a psychology > >> > radio > >> >> call-in program whereby Psychologists disect problems give very > > good > >> >> advice to Callers with marital/family difficulties .. some being > > very > >> >> huge. I catch it everyday and have learned alot . > >> >> Here is their nationwide radio station Listing along with the > > times > >> > that > >> >> its aired for your locale : > >> >> Address:http://www.cloudtownsend.com/Events/Radio.htm > >> > INteresting how you omitted that it’s a faith based show. I detest > >> > sneakiness. > >> So what? > >> -Tony > >> — > >> "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, > > it’s time > >> to fertilize your lawn!" > >> Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter > > weekend. > >> Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information. > > I wasn’t talking to you but since you asked…. > > If were to give a link to a "psychology" show and it was strictly > > through a Jewish perspective, I would mention that being that I don’t > > want to mislead anyone who expects it to be a psychological approach > > rather than a faith based approach. > You believe psychological approaches cannot be faith based?

I beleive that it is a biased form of counseling however, if it upfront, open and honest that it is faith baised then whoever chooses it makes no difference to me. I just don’t like agencies that don’t advertise it before they suck you in. > > It appears that my personal feelings touched one of your nerves, just > No, you just seem to be "religophobic".

Nah, I really don’t care what others practice, honestly. I respect people’s choices. What I don’t care for is sneakiness and deception. I’m not sure why this concept is so hard to comprehend in this post. > > as the OP touched one of mine. It reminds me of how some of the so > > called "crisis pregnancy" centers lure women in and scare the bejeebees > > out of them by showing them a picture as a fetus. They advertise > So how would a picture of a fetus (especially one peacefully sucking his > or her thumb in the womb) scare someone? Does it scare you?

Tony you’re not addressing the issue. It’s plain and simple. If someone, an agency, a therapist or a dentist has a practice where it is based on Christianity, I really have no interest in choosing that person. It’s not my thing. I don’t hate it nor do I even care enough about it to dislike it, I want to believe in what I believe and not be deceived in order to get me in the door. Period! Please don’t misinterpret and label me as something that I am not. I married men who are not Jewish and one was raised in a church and the other as a Christian Scientist. Neither of them practiced their religion when we married. I would not have married them if they did. We all have choices. A choice or feeling does not equate to fear. > > themselves as caring, empathic and always there to help a young woman > > experiencing an unplanned pregnancy (in a gentle environment). Then > > out comes the bible. > Gentle, caring and the Bible are not mutually exclusive.

I knew that you ‘d argue how "I feel". > I don’t think you have a lot of experience with crisis pregnancy centers, > since you are so against adoption and appear to be an advocate of killing > children in the womb, but hey, it takes all kinds. See Tony, it’s

inherent in you to criticize my feelings while I’m not criticizing yours. I’m simply letting you know how "I" feel. Tony, it’s really senseless for you to assume to know my reality. I have enough experience with these centers to know that I don’t send clients there if they want to get educated about all of their options. I know enough about them to know that they don’t advertise that they don’t offer all 3 options. I have applied for counseling jobs at Bethany and New Hope (knowing that they were affiliated with some religion but wasn’t sure which). They felt that I was qualified and were ready to hire me until the last moment when they asked….YOu do attend church every Sunday, right? I said, well accutally I"m Jewish so no, I don’t attend church. They informed me that attending church was a requirement, which was not in the ad and they also told me that at their agency not only do their adoptive parents have to go to church, but no adoptive families can adopt with out attending church, no families can adopt if they already have a child and a few other requirements that blew me away. So actually it was the agency that rejected me. Talk about religionphobia! > > I know that it’s senseless to discuss this with you Tony since we are > > on opposite sides of the fence, but I don’t like deception. You can > > have whatever belief you have and do whatever you choose to do in life, > > but don’t mislead others on your journey. That’s my outlook. And we > > don’t agree. Feel free to scream out curse words and tell me how > > stupid I am. Your MO is easy to predict. > No, I don’t think you’re stupid, and that’s what makes it so

frightening. Well you ‘ve called me stupid in the past amongst other things and I find it difficult to have an adult conversation with you. This is as close to one that we’ve ever had and I do appreciate it. > I’m going to have a Jeanne Dixon moment and predict that within 4 years, > the abomination of Roe v. Wade will be overturned, and the legality of > abortion will be sent to the people.

I wish that I could predict the future. > Things will change.

I hope that they do and for the better I might add. Of course "the better" means different things to each of us. That won’t change. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> -Tony > — > "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it’s time > to fertilize your lawn!" > Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. > Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Response:

On 8 Feb 2005 10:37:29 -0800, MsLiz – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text - wrote: > Tony Miller wrote: >> On 7 Feb 2005 19:45:11 -0800, MsLiz >> wrote: >> > Decency Advocate wrote: >> >> Thought some of you folks in here would like info on a psychology >> > radio >> >> call-in program whereby Psychologists disect problems give very > good >> >> advice to Callers with marital/family difficulties .. some being > very >> >> huge. I catch it everyday and have learned alot . >> >> Here is their nationwide radio station Listing along with the > times >> > that >> >> its aired for your locale : >> >> Address:http://www.cloudtownsend.com/Events/Radio.htm >> > INteresting how you omitted that it’s a faith based show. I detest >> > sneakiness. >> So what? >> -Tony >> — >> "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, > it’s time >> to fertilize your lawn!" >> Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter > weekend. >> Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information. > I wasn’t talking to you but since you asked…. > If were to give a link to a "psychology" show and it was strictly > through a Jewish perspective, I would mention that being that I don’t > want to mislead anyone who expects it to be a psychological approach > rather than a faith based approach.

You believe psychological approaches cannot be faith based? > It appears that my personal feelings touched one of your nerves, just

No, you just seem to be "religophobic". > as the OP touched one of mine. It reminds me of how some of the so > called "crisis pregnancy" centers lure women in and scare the bejeebees > out of them by showing them a picture as a fetus. They advertise

So how would a picture of a fetus (especially one peacefully sucking his or her thumb in the womb) scare someone? Does it scare you? > themselves as caring, empathic and always there to help a young woman > experiencing an unplanned pregnancy (in a gentle environment). Then > out comes the bible.

Gentle, caring and the Bible are not mutually exclusive. I don’t think you have a lot of experience with crisis pregnancy centers, since you are so against adoption and appear to be an advocate of killing children in the womb, but hey, it takes all kinds. > I know that it’s senseless to discuss this with you Tony since we are > on opposite sides of the fence, but I don’t like deception. You can > have whatever belief you have and do whatever you choose to do in life, > but don’t mislead others on your journey. That’s my outlook. And we > don’t agree. Feel free to scream out curse words and tell me how > stupid I am. Your MO is easy to predict.

No, I don’t think you’re stupid, and that’s what makes it so frightening. I’m going to have a Jeanne Dixon moment and predict that within 4 years, the abomination of Roe v. Wade will be overturned, and the legality of abortion will be sent to the people. Things will change. -Tony — "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it’s time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Response:

On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 16:35:20 -0800, pixelfreak – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text - wrote: > On 2005-02-08 04:30:11 -0800, Tony Miller said: >> On 7 Feb 2005 19:45:11 -0800, MsLiz wrote: >>> Decency Advocate wrote: >>>> Thought some of you folks in here would like info on a psychology >>> radio >>>> call-in program whereby Psychologists disect problems give very good >>>> advice to Callers with marital/family difficulties .. some being very >>>> huge. I catch it everyday and have learned alot . >>>> Here is their nationwide radio station Listing along with the times >>> that >>>> its aired for your locale : >>> INteresting how you omitted that it’s a faith based show. I detest >>> sneakiness. >> So what? >> -Tony > false pretense.

The guy said that it was a good psychology radio talk show. So if the guy is religious, so what. It might still be a good psychology radio talk show. Dr. Laura is a "psychology show" that’s faith based. -Tony — "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it’s time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Response:

Decency Advocate wrote: > ‘INteresting how you omitted that it’s a faith based show. I detest > sneakiness.’ > ME: It goes without saying. Any call in radio show that trys to help > with marriage problems has ‘faith’ in the sanctity of marriage . You > have FAITH in the marriage institution dont you ?

Okay, I’ll change the word to Christian based. And no, not every marriage is Christian based. Not all counseling is Christian based. Not all adoption agencies are Christian based. A radio show that is Christian based is going to have a slant. If you happend to believe in that stuff, go for it. I just find it offensive when someone leads me somewhere without mentioning that is has something to do with Jesus.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Decency Advocate wrote: > ‘I really wasn’t addressing anyone in particular. I was stating that I > don’t care what path anyone takes, just don’t mislead others on the > journey. What am I missing here?’ > Liz, Whether or not one follows the Christian faith or not, this Radio > Show has very useful information regarding the topics of marital > struggles, divorce, family issues, adultery, etc…. I dont feel i was > misleading anyone by posting info on a good Radio Talk Show Program with > callers who have legitimate concerns that we can all learn and grow > from. If it happened to be a ‘Secular’ Radio Call in Show that > promoted healthy suggestions and advice (which is impossible of our > present culture..) , then i would have suggested it too.

I don’t doubt that you find it helpful. All I said is that if were going to mention helping others and it had a religious twist, no matter what the religion _I_ would mention it to my audience. For some reason you’re missing my point. I guess it’s not worth repeating myself. Enjoy your show! I"m sure that some in here will enjoy it too.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -pixelfreak wrote: > On 2005-02-08 14:39:37 -0800, DecencyAdvoc…@webtv.net (Decency > Advocate) said: > > > struggles, divorce, family issues, adultery, etc…. I dont feel i was > > misleading anyone by posting info on a good Radio Talk Show Program with > > callers who have legitimate concerns that we can all learn and grow > > from. If it happened to be a ‘Secular’ Radio Call in Show that > > promoted healthy suggestions and advice (which is impossible of our > > present culture..) , then i would have suggested it too. > So what are these impossibilities that are inherent to ‘present > culture’ with respect to secular radio?? > I’m getting the feeling that I’m looking down a straw. > — > thepixelfreak

Thank you for the comic relief. Sheesh, do I need a megaphone??? :-)

Response:

Thought some of you folks in here would like info on a psychology radio call-in program whereby Psychologists disect problems give very good advice to Callers with marital/family difficulties .. some being very huge. I catch it everyday and have learned alot . Here is their nationwide radio station Listing along with the times that its aired for your locale : Address:http://www.cloudtownsend.com/Events/Radio.htm

Response:

Decency Advocate wrote: > Thought some of you folks in here would like info on a psychology radio > call-in program whereby Psychologists disect problems give very good > advice to Callers with marital/family difficulties .. some being very > huge. I catch it everyday and have learned alot . > Here is their nationwide radio station Listing along with the times that > its aired for your locale : > Address:http://www.cloudtownsend.com/Events/Radio.htm

Or you can watch Frasier.

Response:

On 2005-02-08 14:39:37 -0800, DecencyAdvoc…@webtv.net (Decency Advocate) said: > struggles, divorce, family issues, adultery, etc…. I dont feel i was > misleading anyone by posting info on a good Radio Talk Show Program with > callers who have legitimate concerns that we can all learn and grow > from. If it happened to be a ‘Secular’ Radio Call in Show that > promoted healthy suggestions and advice (which is impossible of our > present culture..) , then i would have suggested it too.

So what are these impossibilities that are inherent to ‘present culture’ with respect to secular radio?? I’m getting the feeling that I’m looking down a straw. — thepixelfreak

Response:

If you look far enuf down that straw, you may see dave’s fundy brain (DA now being just the latest of a long line of names he hides under)

Response:

She has NO faith in an uneducated sneaky fundy like you and your ilk dave (why not tell pixel how long you were married, but as he nevers answers a question it was only two years)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Bill in Co. wrote: > MsLiz wrote: > > Bill in Co. wrote: > >> MsLiz wrote: > >>> Tony Miller wrote: > >>>> On 7 Feb 2005 19:45:11 -0800, MsLiz > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> Decency Advocate wrote: > >>>>>> Thought some of you folks in here would like info on a psychology > radio > >>>>>> call-in program whereby Psychologists disect problems give very good > >>>>>> advice to Callers with marital/family difficulties .. some being very > >>>>>> huge. I catch it everyday and have learned alot . > >>>>>> Here is their nationwide radio station Listing along with the times > that > >>>>>> its aired for your locale : > >>>>>> Address:http://www.cloudtownsend.com/Events/Radio.htm > >>>>> INteresting how you omitted that it’s a faith based show. I detest > >>>>> sneakiness. > >>>> So what? > >>>> -Tony > >>>> — > >>>> "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, > it’s > >>>> time to fertilize your lawn!" > >>>> Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter > weekend. > >>>> Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information. > >>> I wasn’t talking to you but since you asked…. > >>> If were to give a link to a "psychology" show and it was strictly > >>> through a Jewish perspective, I would mention that being that I don’t > >>> want to mislead anyone who expects it to be a psychological approach > >>> rather than a faith based approach. > >>> It appears that my personal feelings touched one of your nerves, just > >>> as the OP touched one of mine. It reminds me of how some of the so > >>> called "crisis pregnancy" centers lure women in and scare the bejeebees > >>> out of them by showing them a picture as a fetus. They advertise > >>> themselves as caring, empathic and always there to help a young woman > >>> experiencing an unplanned pregnancy (in a gentle environment). Then > >>> out comes the bible. > >>> I know that it’s senseless to discuss this with you Tony since we are > >>> on opposite sides of the fence, but I don’t like deception. You can > >>> have whatever belief you have and do whatever you choose to do in life, > >>> but don’t mislead others on your journey. That’s my outlook. > >> Mislead???? LOL. (WHO is following Tony on his journey)? > > I don’t understand your question(s). > You told him not to mislead others. WHAT others (if ANY) are you thinking > of, that would or could be so easily misled by him on his journey (per > above)?

I"m not looking to name people if that’s what you’re getting at. In general, I like people to be up front. If you’re a faith based agency…say so. If your method of counseling is faith based, say so. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >>> And we don’t agree. Feel free to scream out curse words and tell me how > >>> stupid I am. Your MO is easy to predict.

Response:

‘but I don’t like deception. You can have whatever belief you have and do whatever you choose to do in life, but don’t mislead others on your journey. That’s my outlook. ‘ ME: The Radio Show is Christian Psychology ; what is ’sneaky’ about that ?? You believe in a Creator same as everyone else on earth because it is inherent in our being to know that there MUST be a Creator for all the super-complexity we see around us ; and that also includes our Inner Being and the way we are wired up. Listening to Christian Psychology is a very refreshing change from the adverse cultural teachings on irresponsibility issues such as divorce if you ‘feel’ like it, have sex with whomever you ‘feel’ like, morality is what YOU ‘think’ it is, and … elevate yourself thru hedonism because you are your own ‘god’. When i posted that Radio Station Listing, it was to help those who struggle with thier marriage , or, from going thru a divorce ; because it has a distinctive Christian flavor to it shouldnt be frowned upon….once this nation embraced the God of this Universe and his principles for right living. Its quite apparent what happens to society when a huge number of people turn their eyes away from God and his commands meant for our own protection.

Response:

On 2005-02-08 04:30:11 -0800, Tony Miller said: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On 7 Feb 2005 19:45:11 -0800, MsLiz wrote: >> Decency Advocate wrote: >>> Thought some of you folks in here would like info on a psychology >> radio >>> call-in program whereby Psychologists disect problems give very good >>> advice to Callers with marital/family difficulties .. some being very >>> huge. I catch it everyday and have learned alot . >>> Here is their nationwide radio station Listing along with the times >> that >>> its aired for your locale : >> INteresting how you omitted that it’s a faith based show. I detest >> sneakiness. > So what? > -Tony

false pretense. — thepixelfreak

Response:

‘INteresting how you omitted that it’s a faith based show. I detest sneakiness.’ ME: It goes without saying. Any call in radio show that trys to help with marriage problems has ‘faith’ in the sanctity of marriage . You have FAITH in the marriage institution dont you ?

Response:

‘I really wasn’t addressing anyone in particular. I was stating that I don’t care what path anyone takes, just don’t mislead others on the journey. What am I missing here?’ Liz, Whether or not one follows the Christian faith or not, this Radio Show has very useful information regarding the topics of marital struggles, divorce, family issues, adultery, etc…. I dont feel i was misleading anyone by posting info on a good Radio Talk Show Program with callers who have legitimate concerns that we can all learn and grow from. If it happened to be a ‘Secular’ Radio Call in Show that promoted healthy suggestions and advice (which is impossible of our present culture..) , then i would have suggested it too.

Response:

I really wasn’t addressing anyone in particular. I was stating that I don’t care what path anyone takes, just don’t mislead others on the journey. What am I missing here?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -MsLiz wrote: > Bill in Co. wrote: >> MsLiz wrote: >>> Tony Miller wrote: >>>> On 7 Feb 2005 19:45:11 -0800, MsLiz >>>> wrote: >>>>> Decency Advocate wrote: >>>>>> Thought some of you folks in here would like info on a psychology radio >>>>>> call-in program whereby Psychologists disect problems give very good >>>>>> advice to Callers with marital/family difficulties .. some being very >>>>>> huge. I catch it everyday and have learned alot . >>>>>> Here is their nationwide radio station Listing along with the times that >>>>>> its aired for your locale : >>>>>> Address:http://www.cloudtownsend.com/Events/Radio.htm >>>>> INteresting how you omitted that it’s a faith based show. I detest >>>>> sneakiness. >>>> So what? >>>> -Tony >>>> — >>>> "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it’s >>>> time to fertilize your lawn!" >>>> Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. >>>> Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information. >>> I wasn’t talking to you but since you asked…. >>> If were to give a link to a "psychology" show and it was strictly >>> through a Jewish perspective, I would mention that being that I don’t >>> want to mislead anyone who expects it to be a psychological approach >>> rather than a faith based approach. >>> It appears that my personal feelings touched one of your nerves, just >>> as the OP touched one of mine. It reminds me of how some of the so >>> called "crisis pregnancy" centers lure women in and scare the bejeebees >>> out of them by showing them a picture as a fetus. They advertise >>> themselves as caring, empathic and always there to help a young woman >>> experiencing an unplanned pregnancy (in a gentle environment). Then >>> out comes the bible. >>> I know that it’s senseless to discuss this with you Tony since we are >>> on opposite sides of the fence, but I don’t like deception. You can >>> have whatever belief you have and do whatever you choose to do in life, >>> but don’t mislead others on your journey. That’s my outlook. >> Mislead???? LOL. (WHO is following Tony on his journey)? > I don’t understand your question(s).

You told him not to mislead others. WHAT others (if ANY) are you thinking of, that would or could be so easily misled by him on his journey (per above)? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>> And we don’t agree. Feel free to scream out curse words and tell me how >>> stupid I am. Your MO is easy to predict.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -MsLiz wrote: > Tony Miller wrote: >> On 7 Feb 2005 19:45:11 -0800, MsLiz >> wrote: >>> Decency Advocate wrote: >>>> Thought some of you folks in here would like info on a psychology radio >>>> call-in program whereby Psychologists disect problems give very good >>>> advice to Callers with marital/family difficulties .. some being very >>>> huge. I catch it everyday and have learned alot . >>>> Here is their nationwide radio station Listing along with the times that >>>> its aired for your locale : >>>> Address:http://www.cloudtownsend.com/Events/Radio.htm >>> INteresting how you omitted that it’s a faith based show. I detest >>> sneakiness. >> So what? >> -Tony >> — >> "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it’s time >> to fertilize your lawn!" >> Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. >> Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information. > I wasn’t talking to you but since you asked…. > If were to give a link to a "psychology" show and it was strictly > through a Jewish perspective, I would mention that being that I don’t > want to mislead anyone who expects it to be a psychological approach > rather than a faith based approach. > It appears that my personal feelings touched one of your nerves, just > as the OP touched one of mine. It reminds me of how some of the so > called "crisis pregnancy" centers lure women in and scare the bejeebees > out of them by showing them a picture as a fetus. They advertise > themselves as caring, empathic and always there to help a young woman > experiencing an unplanned pregnancy (in a gentle environment). Then > out comes the bible. > I know that it’s senseless to discuss this with you Tony since we are > on opposite sides of the fence, but I don’t like deception. You can > have whatever belief you have and do whatever you choose to do in life, > but don’t mislead others on your journey. That’s my outlook.

Mislead???? LOL. (WHO is following Tony on his journey)? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> And we don’t agree. Feel free to scream out curse words and tell me how > stupid I am. Your MO is easy to predict.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Bill in Co. wrote: > MsLiz wrote: > > Tony Miller wrote: > >> On 7 Feb 2005 19:45:11 -0800, MsLiz > >> wrote: > >>> Decency Advocate wrote: > >>>> Thought some of you folks in here would like info on a psychology radio > >>>> call-in program whereby Psychologists disect problems give very good > >>>> advice to Callers with marital/family difficulties .. some being very > >>>> huge. I catch it everyday and have learned alot . > >>>> Here is their nationwide radio station Listing along with the times > that > >>>> its aired for your locale : > >>>> Address:http://www.cloudtownsend.com/Events/Radio.htm > >>> INteresting how you omitted that it’s a faith based show. I detest > >>> sneakiness. > >> So what? > >> -Tony > >> — > >> "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it’s > time > >> to fertilize your lawn!" > >> Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. > >> Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information. > > I wasn’t talking to you but since you asked…. > > If were to give a link to a "psychology" show and it was strictly > > through a Jewish perspective, I would mention that being that I don’t > > want to mislead anyone who expects it to be a psychological approach > > rather than a faith based approach. > > It appears that my personal feelings touched one of your nerves, just > > as the OP touched one of mine. It reminds me of how some of the so > > called "crisis pregnancy" centers lure women in and scare the bejeebees > > out of them by showing them a picture as a fetus. They advertise > > themselves as caring, empathic and always there to help a young woman > > experiencing an unplanned pregnancy (in a gentle environment). Then > > out comes the bible. > > I know that it’s senseless to discuss this with you Tony since we are > > on opposite sides of the fence, but I don’t like deception. You can > > have whatever belief you have and do whatever you choose to do in life, > > but don’t mislead others on your journey. That’s my outlook. > Mislead???? LOL. (WHO is following Tony on his journey)?

I don’t understand your question(s). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > And we don’t agree. Feel free to scream out curse words and tell me how > > stupid I am. Your MO is easy to predict.

Response:

EVERYTHING DAVE DOES IS SNEAKY >From his changing his web name more often than I change my underware,

to making up a new webtv address to agree whth his own posts when no one else will

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tony Miller wrote: > On 7 Feb 2005 19:45:11 -0800, MsLiz > wrote: > > Decency Advocate wrote: > >> Thought some of you folks in here would like info on a psychology > > radio > >> call-in program whereby Psychologists disect problems give very good > >> advice to Callers with marital/family difficulties .. some being very > >> huge. I catch it everyday and have learned alot . > >> Here is their nationwide radio station Listing along with the times > > that > >> its aired for your locale : > >> Address:http://www.cloudtownsend.com/Events/Radio.htm > > INteresting how you omitted that it’s a faith based show. I detest > > sneakiness. > So what? > -Tony > — > "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it’s time > to fertilize your lawn!" > Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. > Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

I wasn’t talking to you but since you asked…. If were to give a link to a "psychology" show and it was strictly through a Jewish perspective, I would mention that being that I don’t want to mislead anyone who expects it to be a psychological approach rather than a faith based approach. It appears that my personal feelings touched one of your nerves, just as the OP touched one of mine. It reminds me of how some of the so called "crisis pregnancy" centers lure women in and scare the bejeebees out of them by showing them a picture as a fetus. They advertise themselves as caring, empathic and always there to help a young woman experiencing an unplanned pregnancy (in a gentle environment). Then out comes the bible. I know that it’s senseless to discuss this with you Tony since we are on opposite sides of the fence, but I don’t like deception. You can have whatever belief you have and do whatever you choose to do in life, but don’t mislead others on your journey. That’s my outlook. And we don’t agree. Feel free to scream out curse words and tell me how stupid I am. Your MO is easy to predict.

Response:

Or dave can get out some of his kiddy porn

Response:

INteresting how you omitted that it’s a faith based show. I detest sneakiness.

Response:

On 7 Feb 2005 19:45:11 -0800, MsLiz – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text - wrote: > Decency Advocate wrote: >> Thought some of you folks in here would like info on a psychology > radio >> call-in program whereby Psychologists disect problems give very good >> advice to Callers with marital/family difficulties .. some being very >> huge. I catch it everyday and have learned alot . >> Here is their nationwide radio station Listing along with the times > that >> its aired for your locale : >> Address:http://www.cloudtownsend.com/Events/Radio.htm > INteresting how you omitted that it’s a faith based show. I detest > sneakiness.

So what? -Tony — "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it’s time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Response:

Canadian Muslim Group Awards Grants for Innovative Projects

admin — Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Double (i)

wrote in

Response:

wrote in

Response:

Innovative products from muslims? Is this the beginning of a joke thread?

Response:

Canadian Muslim Group Awards Grants for Innovative Projects TORONTO, December 24 (IslamOnline.net) – A Canadian Muslim foundation has offered its first grants to support innovative ideas on more services strengthening the capacity of the community to care for itself. The Olive Tree Foundation is a philanthropic foundation established earlier this year to promote community development through the collection of endowed funds and charitable contributions, to fund services for the long-term benefit of the community. The foundation presented its first grants last week, being one of the first granting institutions to be established by the Muslim community – which is one of the fastest growing faith groups in Canada. It awarded the grants to five innovative projects within the Canadian Muslim community to fund programs that promote education, community outreach and social welfare over the next year. "The Olive Tree Foundation is pleased to be awarding grants to creative and innovative Canadian non-profit groups," said Muneeb Nasir, President of the Foundation, in announcing the 2005 distribution of grants on the ceremony. "Bringing these visions and ideas to fruition requires support and Olive Tree Foundation is pleased to contribute in this regard." Expansion Michael Milo, producer of the award-winning documentary, "A New Life in a New Land: the Muslim Experience in Canada", is one of those whose organisations were awarded a grant to train educators in Western Canada to utilize the series in their outreach activities. "Milo Productions is extremely pleased to have received support from the Olive Tree Foundation," he said. It is wonderful to be with the Foundation at the outset as they build a unique and very valuable institution. " The Federation of Muslim Women (FMW) said the grant would increase areas of its services to include youths. "It is a testament to the work that FMW has been doing since 1998 at the grassroots level, within and outside, the Muslim community. This grant enables FMW to pursue one of our primary objectives: to incorporate youth initiatives into the organization," said Zehra Haffajee, the Federation Chairperson. Grants were awarded to the following organizations: Muslim Educational Network, Training And Outreach Service (MENTORS) for the project "Count Me In: Empowering Newcomer Parents to Build Inclusive Schools" Islamic Social Services and Resources Association for the project "On Behalf of Our Children" Federation of Muslim Women for the project "Youth Community Connections" Milo Productions Inc. and the Islamic Association of Saskatchewan Inc. for the project "A New Life in a New Land: Presenters Training" Muslim Association of Professionals (MAPCanada)/Muslim Educational Network, Training And Outreach Service (MENTORS) for the project "Student Opportunity Bursary" Important The grants were made possible by contributions collected by the Foundation during its first Annual Ramadan Campaign that encouraged Canadian Muslims to share part of their annual charitable contributions with deserving community initiatives. Milo thinks that philanthropic foundations are important for community development. "Olive Tree Foundation will enrich Muslims in Canada through helping socially based organizations deliver quality programs," he said. The number of Canadian Muslims has increased dramatically over the last decade, according to a national census last year. With approximately 600,000 Muslims in the country, Islam became the number one non-Christian faith in Canada. The census attributed the increase to immigration from South Asia, North Africa and the Middle East. http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2004-12/24/article03.shtml

Response:

no church last night

admin — Mon, 20 Dec 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

> Lack of romantic interest from the opposite sex is not the same thing as > abuse. > Unless you get this, you have little hope of ever pulling yourself out of > this > misogynistic self-pity pool.

And I suppose depriving people of food and shelter, BASIC NEEDS, isn’t abuse either? Deprivation of LOVE or even the RIGHT to FEEL is the worst kind of abuse there is. It’s dehumanising. > How have women "butchered" you?

My heart, my soul, my youth. My hopes and my dreams. Even my will to live. They savagely butchered all of them.

Response:

On 22 Dec 2004 00:33:52 GMT, jimsummer…@aol.com (Jim Summers87) wrote: >>Lack of romantic interest from the opposite sex is not the same thing as >>abuse. > It certainly is abuse if the women’s standards are unreasonably high and thus >he is being denied legitimate opportunities for romantic happiness. > How is being deprived of a fundamental psychological and emotional need not >considered abuse in your mind?

You are not being deprived of anything – there are plenty of "fatties" and "skanks" that would go for you – you’ve said so yourself. Solitary Soul -> http://users3.ev1.net/~solitarysoul/ —————————————————– in some years, only 1% of a rabbit population survives. that is what cleans the gene pool. you don’t see ugly rabbits or other wildlife. – severesocialanxiety

Response:

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:37:26 +1100, "Darkfalz" wrote: >> Lack of romantic interest from the opposite sex is not the same thing as >> abuse. Unless you get this, you have little hope of ever pulling >> yourself out of this misogynistic self-pity pool. >And I suppose depriving people of food and shelter, BASIC NEEDS, isn’t abuse >either?

You do not deserve to be given food nor shelter – that’s only something that a COMMUNIST would believe. You are not being deprived of the OPPORTUNITY to procure food and shelter - the same can be said of love and intimacy. You could get all the love you wanted if you were willing to follow Rainier’s path and accept women who are less than ideal. >Deprivation of LOVE or even the RIGHT to FEEL is the worst kind of abuse >there is. It’s dehumanising.

It’s a simple matter of lowering your standards. >> How have women "butchered" you? >My heart, my soul, my youth. My hopes and my dreams. Even my will to live. >They savagely butchered all of them.

You must still have your will to live. How do I know this? You’re still here, aren’t you? If you can’t get what you’re hoping for, then maybe your hopes are unrealistic - perhaps you need a new set of hopes. Solitary Soul -> http://users3.ev1.net/~solitarysoul/ —————————————————– in some years, only 1% of a rabbit population survives. that is what cleans the gene pool. you don’t see ugly rabbits or other wildlife. – severesocialanxiety

Response:

—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– Hash: SHA1 In article <32rtuoF3qmpq…@individual.net> Darkfalz wrote: >> Lack of romantic interest from the opposite sex is not the same thing >> as abuse.

This is sorta true… >> Unless you get this, you have little hope of ever pulling yourself >> out of this misogynistic self-pity pool.

This certainly is… >Deprivation of LOVE or even the RIGHT to FEEL is the worst kind of abuse >there is. It’s dehumanising.

And this is sorta true also. What’s particularly erm, dehumanising, is that *nobody in particular* is doing the abuse! It’s an emergent phenomenon – action by (collective) inaction. >> How have women "butchered" you? >My heart, my soul, my youth. My hopes and my dreams. Even my will to >live. They savagely butchered all of them.

Who, in particular? – — "IBM has more patent litigation lawyers than SCO has employees." – unknown —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQFByRBF/FmLrNfLpjMRAnCfAKCQmUmatk7YYZtrTeVi5Fxf+Z004gCffqN3 5OnTBDfkYLixp3qMf3fLcOc= =9z0T —–END PGP SIGNATURE—–

Response:

In news:cqadcb015or@drn.newsguy.com, GoddessBaybee wrote : – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In article <32r964F3mtqh…@individual.net>, Darkfalz says… > > "Sklenge" wrote in message > > news:BDEDF843.31D61%sklenge@yahoo.co.uk… > > > Darkfalz wrote: > > > > > Darkfaltz you know if you gave > > > > > someone half a > > > > > chance you might just like someone…i really feel bad you > > > > > hate me so much > > > > > and im not writing this expecting anything hardly kind from > > > > > you…think about what you write people and think how you > > > > > would feel if you were them. > > > > That’s funny, a woman lecturing me on "how would it feel if I > > > > said that to > > > > you". > > > > I could sit here and type for three months straight nothing but > > > > abuse to women, and it still wouldn’t make a dent on the abuse > > > > I have received from them in my life time. > Lack of romantic interest from the opposite sex is not the same thing > as abuse. Unless you get this, you have little hope of ever pulling > yourself out of this misogynistic self-pity pool.

It’s not as simple as that : women are supposed to be passive. Men are supposed to be active and aggressive. Thus, the worst thing that can happen to a woman is that she gets abused (beaten, or forced sex) by a very aggressive guy. And the worst thing that can happen to a man is to be unable to be aggressive, then, he remains alone all his life. Thus, in the world, only women really suffer. When the worst happens to a woman, it’s horrible and unfair, and it’s feminism. When the worst happens to a man, it’s "self pity pool" and misogyny. The only thing that doesn’t fit your picture is the suicide rates, 3 times higher for males… (if you only consider real suicides, not self-pity) My take on things is that as women are allowed to be passive, they can both receive very good things (often), like positive attention from males without having to do anything to deserve it, and very bad things (abuse, rarely). While men receive… nothing. And if they complain, then they’re not real men, they’re "whiners". But now I wonder who are the real ungrateful selfish whiners…

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Solitary Soul wrote: > On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 18:16:49 -0500, "disneychick" > wrote: > >Darkfaltz you know if you gave someone > half a > > chance you might just like someone…i really feel bad you hate me > > so much and im not writing this expecting anything hardly kind from > > you…think about what you write people and think how you would > > feel if you were them. > He doesn’t feel anything for anyone but himself. > >SS trying hard not to be hurt by > that bc > > youve like said it a few times. he’s persuing me…im not begging. > It was a metaphor – I didn’t mean that you’re doing the pursuing. > > > urging you to hold off on any sort of meaningful relationship until > > you’ve been > >able to get your head together.> I know im unsocial big time…but > isnt a > > relationship one where people HELP each other?? Mark isn’t super > > extroverted…actually he is sort of but hes mostly real busy > > raising his kids and working…single parenting is wicked hard and > > hes got a ton of obstacles but hes sooooo un affected negatively at > > all. thats very appealing to me. > > > potential BF’s is that you both live within > > your own little boxes – sticking your heads out every once in a > > while to > >see what the weather’s like.> this is and isnt true. Yes im home > > alot…yes i dont socialize, but the whole dynamics of where i > > lives real weird…theres like NO guys hardly it seems……and i > > am real anxiety prone so if i have to compete at all im out. so i > > dont even try to compete…..but to be honest if it wasnt like this > > id probably be home alot anyway. > So then the answer is to get out of that place. Get a career going, > figure out who you are, get your head together, then relocate. > I know that you wouldn’t have any problems finding a WAAAAAAY better > SO around here (in South Texas).

meaning u! — ———————————————————————— Ms Pnoopie Pnats Usnet Legend http://mspoopiepants.blogspot.com/ ———————————————————————— —————- my socks are off Vic, come and get my feet NOW!! ———————————————————————— —————

Response:

>Lack of romantic interest from the opposite sex is not the same thing as >abuse.

It certainly is abuse if the women’s standards are unreasonably high and thus he is being denied legitimate opportunities for romantic happiness. How is being deprived of a fundamental psychological and emotional need not considered abuse in your mind?

Response:

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 18:16:49 -0500, "disneychick" wrote: >Darkfaltz you know if you gave someone half a >chance you might just like someone…i really feel bad you hate me so much >and im not writing this expecting anything hardly kind from you…think >about what you write people and think how you would feel if you were >them.

He doesn’t feel anything for anyone but himself. >SS trying hard not to be hurt by that bc >youve like said it a few times. he’s persuing me…im not begging.

It was a metaphor – I didn’t mean that you’re doing the pursuing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->you to hold off on any sort of meaningful relationship until you’ve been >able to get your head together.> I know im unsocial big time…but isnt a >relationship one where people HELP each other?? Mark isn’t super >extroverted…actually he is sort of but hes mostly real busy raising his >kids and working…single parenting is wicked hard and hes got a ton of >obstacles but hes sooooo un affected negatively at all. thats very >appealing to me. >potential BF’s is that you both live within >your own little boxes – sticking your heads out every once in a while to >see what the weather’s like.> this is and isnt true. Yes im home >alot…yes i dont socialize, but the whole dynamics of where i lives real >weird…theres like NO guys hardly it seems……and i am real anxiety >prone so if i have to compete at all im out. so i dont even try to >compete…..but to be honest if it wasnt like this id probably be home >alot anyway.

So then the answer is to get out of that place. Get a career going, figure out who you are, get your head together, then relocate. I know that you wouldn’t have any problems finding a WAAAAAAY better SO around here (in South Texas). >lot of guys looking for girls like that. The problem is, you’re making >yourself VERY difficult to find.> lots of OLD people at my church…so >thats out.

Then you need to find a new church. > well, they don’t really >know yet…not really telling them much.

You NEED to tell them EVERYTHING. What about your counselor? What did your counselor say? Solitary Soul -> http://users3.ev1.net/~solitarysoul/ —————————————————– Welcome to alt.support.shyness, also known as The *PAIN* Club. - Solitary Soul

Response:

"F r a.n.k." wrote in message news:32oum3F3pik1sU1@individual.net… > In news:ddd7a64077fa990e15b5858b12160083@localhost.talkaboutsupport.com, > disneychick wrote : > Hi Trisha. I hadn’t seen the 1st thread, so I’ve just been catching up. > For now I haven’t read the other’s answers, but I’m afraid I’m going > to > say what you don’t want to hear : that he’s nearly 40… I think that you > feel really lonely (I can understand that, trust me), and you feel a bit > desperate… So I don’t say that this guy is not a good guy, but I’m sure > you could find someone your age… Or a bit closer to your age…

I don’t think age alone should be a factor not to date someone. I believe a successful relationship could occur with people of significantly different ages. That being said, it is also very important to step back and do some honest analysis as to whether the two people are truly compatible and have if their short and long term goals are similar. The guy could really be a good guy whose sincerely interested in Trisha or he could be just an older guy looking to score with some young hottie so its important that she really is sure of his intentions rather than go for it and get hurt bad. Every relationship has its risks though so I don’t know a valid reason why this one should be avoided more than any other.

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> Darkfaltz you know if you gave someone half a > chance you might just like someone…i really feel bad you hate me so much > and im not writing this expecting anything hardly kind from you…think > about what you write people and think how you would feel if you were > them.

That’s funny, a woman lecturing me on "how would it feel if I said that to you". I could sit here and type for three months straight nothing but abuse to women, and it still wouldn’t make a dent on the abuse I have received from them in my life time. I hope Churchill, Stalin and Roosevelt are keeping the fires of hell hot enough for you.

Response:

darkfalz said: >You will be going to hell.

methinks you’re looking forward to the company. – k i t z – if i could start again a million miles away i would keep myself i would find a way

Response:

Darkfalz wrote: >> Darkfaltz you know if you gave someone half a >> chance you might just like someone…i really feel bad you hate me so much >> and im not writing this expecting anything hardly kind from you…think >> about what you write people and think how you would feel if you were >> them. > That’s funny, a woman lecturing me on "how would it feel if I said that to > you". > I could sit here and type for three months straight nothing but abuse to > women, and it still wouldn’t make a dent on the abuse I have received from > them in my life time.

So you believe in an eye for an eye do you? How very Old Testament of you.

Response:

"Sklenge" wrote in message

news:BDEDF843.31D61%sklenge@yahoo.co.uk… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Darkfalz wrote: >>> Darkfaltz you know if you gave someone half >>> a >>> chance you might just like someone…i really feel bad you hate me so >>> much >>> and im not writing this expecting anything hardly kind from you…think >>> about what you write people and think how you would feel if you were >>> them. >> That’s funny, a woman lecturing me on "how would it feel if I said that >> to >> you". >> I could sit here and type for three months straight nothing but abuse to >> women, and it still wouldn’t make a dent on the abuse I have received >> from >> them in my life time. > So you believe in an eye for an eye do you? > How very Old Testament of you.

Obviously I don’t, or I would be out butchering women as we speak.

Response:

hey again, this is so cool you guys all talking to me about this. I’m so excited to be able to share this with people whor like me and understand. Ok…Im going to answer back everone who wrote me (almost) so this will take awhile. If your looking for your reply just scrolll down to your name. Latro – its terrible here…they fight over even the guys who r married even. Well, he seems real sincere and children are unconditional…they adore mark its really really cool watching them!!! ci+ ss is kind of my online conscience…he gives the best advice i think and is consistant. although in spite of what he says i think hes trying to selp me feel better about myself. i know i have terrible self esteem – i hate myself most days bc stuff others can do is so hard for me even regular easy stuff like looking people in the eye. anyway… Darkfaltz you know if you gave someone half a chance you might just like someone…i really feel bad you hate me so much and im not writing this expecting anything hardly kind from you…think about what you write people and think how you would feel if you were them. SS trying hard not to be hurt by that bc youve like said it a few times. he’s persuing me…im not begging. I know im unsocial big time…but isnt a relationship one where people HELP each other?? Mark isn’t super extroverted…actually he is sort of but hes mostly real busy raising his kids and working…single parenting is wicked hard and hes got a ton of obstacles but hes sooooo un affected negatively at all. thats very appealing to me. this is and isnt true. Yes im home alot…yes i dont socialize, but the whole dynamics of where i lives real weird…theres like NO guys hardly it seems……and i am real anxiety prone so if i have to compete at all im out. so i dont even try to compete…..but to be honest if it wasnt like this id probably be home alot anyway. lots of OLD people at my church…so thats out. well, they don’t really know yet…not really telling them much. no your right as usual…sorry i suggested it. LIZ hey u…how come they give me a hard time when i write that way. (((hugs))) anyway – i dont think so bc Marks someone sort of new to me….i had probs with guys in maintenance or actually, this one guy was harrassing me about work orders i knew NOTHING about. Marks sort of a prgm coordinator for job coaches that work w/ people whor going into jobs like schools …. sort of hard to write/describe what that whole thing is. independent living is where i work but its sort of a big program. Mark introduced himself when i started and has sort of guided me here and there but little by little has been more and more helpful unlike my supervisor jen whos a real bitch…. howr you liz?? hope all is well. (((hugs))) Frank I dont understand whats the big deal about the age thing. no im not desperate but thanks for caring anyway. < but I’m sure you could find someone your age…> guys my age are real funny about playing with your mind i think plus all they want to do is party. this man wants nothing and has asked nothing from me other than invite me to his home. Im the one whos hoping its for something more than just visits…maybe it is maybe not..i dont want to ruin it if it is tho. (((hugs))) thank you….

Response:

In article <32r964F3mtqh…@individual.net>, Darkfalz says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->"Sklenge" wrote in message >news:BDEDF843.31D61%sklenge@yahoo.co.uk… >> Darkfalz wrote: >>>> Darkfaltz you know if you gave someone half >>>> a >>>> chance you might just like someone…i really feel bad you hate me so >>>> much >>>> and im not writing this expecting anything hardly kind from you…think >>>> about what you write people and think how you would feel if you were >>>> them. >>> That’s funny, a woman lecturing me on "how would it feel if I said that >>> to >>> you". >>> I could sit here and type for three months straight nothing but abuse to >>> women, and it still wouldn’t make a dent on the abuse I have received >>> from them in my life time.

Lack of romantic interest from the opposite sex is not the same thing as abuse. Unless you get this, you have little hope of ever pulling yourself out of this misogynistic self-pity pool. >> So you believe in an eye for an eye do you? >> How very Old Testament of you. >Obviously I don’t, or I would be out butchering women as we speak.

How have women "butchered" you? Baybee PS BTW, do ya think women over the age of 30 would be justified in butchering you?

Response:

hey again, this is so cool you guys all talking to me about this. I’m so excited to be able to share this with people whor like me and understand. Ok…Im going to answer back everone who wrote me (almost) so this will take awhile. If your looking for your reply just scrolll down to your name. Latro – its terrible here…they fight over even the guys who r married even. Well, he seems real sincere and children are unconditional…they adore mark its really really cool watching them!!! ci+ ss is kind of my online conscience…he gives the best advice i think and is consistant. although in spite of what he says i think hes trying to help me feel better about myself. i know i have terrible self esteem – i hate myself most days bc stuff others can do is so hard for me even regular easy stuff like looking people in the eye. anyway… Darkfaltz you know if you gave someone half a chance you might just like someone…i really feel bad you hate me so much and im not writing this expecting anything hardly kind from you…think about what you write people and think how you would feel if you were them. SS trying hard not to be hurt by that bc youve like said it a few times. he’s persuing me…im not begging. I know im unsocial big time…but isnt a relationship one where people HELP each other?? Mark isn’t super extroverted…actually he is sort of but hes mostly real busy raising his kids and working…single parenting is wicked hard and hes got a ton of obstacles but hes sooooo un affected negatively at all. thats very appealing to me. this is and isnt true. Yes im home alot…yes i dont socialize, but the whole dynamics of where i lives real weird…theres like NO guys hardly it seems……and i am real anxiety prone so if i have to compete at all im out. so i dont even try to compete…..but to be honest if it wasnt like this id probably be home alot anyway. lots of OLD people at my church…so thats out. well, they don’t really know yet…not really telling them much. no your right as usual…sorry i suggested it. LIZ hey u…how come they give me a hard time when i write that way. (((hugs))) anyway – i dont think so bc Marks someone sort of new to me….i had probs with guys in maintenance or actually, this one guy was harrassing me about work orders i knew NOTHING about. Marks sort of a prgm coordinator for job coaches that work w/ people whor going into jobs like schools …. sort of hard to write/describe what that whole thing is. independent living is where i work but its sort of a big program. Mark introduced himself when i started and has sort of guided me here and there but little by little has been more and more helpful unlike my supervisor jen whos a real bitch…. howr you liz?? hope all is well. (((hugs))) Frank I dont understand whats the big deal about the age thing. no im not desperate but thanks for caring anyway. < but I’m sure you could find someone your age…> guys my age are real funny about playing with your mind i think plus all they want to do is party. this man wants nothing and has asked nothing from me other than invite me to his home. Im the one whos hoping its for something more than just visits…maybe it is maybe not..i dont want to ruin it if it is tho. (((hugs))) thank you….

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 22:53:03 +1100, "Darkfalz" wrote: >"disneychick" wrote in message >news:ddd7a64077fa990e15b5858b12160083@localhost.talkaboutsupport.com… >> Well, no church date last night bc the heat wasn’t working real good there >> – but we talked on the phone for like an hour. So theres nothing to report >> back to you guys. but as soon as there is ill let you guys know… >> One thing I want to say, I want to say I am very surprised by how many >> people wrote me giving support. Thank you so much…..this place must be >> changing for the better bc in the past Id get like 10 mean replies to one >> good one. I feel you support me…thank you very much!!! (((hugs))) >> SS likes to give real good advice to people and im not surprised he wants >> me to worry about a career and not a relationship…..you know what tho, >> everyone here knows that relationships that are good are real rare. and I >> know i just met mark but if i dont take the time to see if it might work, >> i might miss a real good chance with someone really really great. where i >> live – the competition for single guys is VICIOUS….so having some guy >> whos quality persuing ME is rare. >> ss is kind about looks to bc im no hottie either…but thank you so much >> for telling everyone good things like that because you know what, we >> should be telling each other stuff like that allllll the time. we should >> support each other and give alot of advice to each other. >You will be going to hell.

Why? Trisha has a strong Christian faith – quite likely stronger than yours. As I recall: Aren’t you an atheist, Darkfalz? Solitary Soul -> http://users3.ev1.net/~solitarysoul/ —————————————————– Welcome to alt.support.shyness, also known as The *PAIN* Club. - Solitary Soul

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -disneychick wrote: > Well, no church date last night bc the heat wasn’t working real good > there – but we talked on the phone for like an hour. So theres > nothing to report back to you guys. but as soon as there is ill let > you guys know… > One thing I want to say, I want to say I am very surprised by how many > people wrote me giving support. Thank you so much…..this place must > be changing for the better bc in the past Id get like 10 mean replies > to one good one. I feel you support me…thank you very much!!! > (((hugs))) > SS likes to give real good advice to people and im not surprised he > wants me to worry about a career and not a relationship…..you know > what tho, everyone here knows that relationships that are good are > real rare. and I know i just met mark but if i dont take the time to > see if it might work, i might miss a real good chance with someone > really really great. where i live – the competition for single guys > is VICIOUS….so having some guy whos quality persuing ME is rare. > ss is kind about looks to bc im no hottie either…but thank you so > much for telling everyone good things like that because you know > what, we should be telling each other stuff like that allllll the > time. we should support each other and give alot of advice to each > other.

is this teh same guy you were tellin me abowt backe in Septemberrr? one that werks with u? — ———————————————————————— Ms Pnoopie Pnats Usnet Legend http://mspoopiepants.blogspot.com/ ———————————————————————— —————- my socks are off Vic, come and get my feet NOW!! ———————————————————————— —————

Response:

On 20 Dec 2004 19:16:35 GMT, "Hot Pnats" wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->disneychick wrote: >> Well, no church date last night bc the heat wasn’t working real good >> there – but we talked on the phone for like an hour. So theres >> nothing to report back to you guys. but as soon as there is ill let >> you guys know… >> One thing I want to say, I want to say I am very surprised by how many >> people wrote me giving support. Thank you so much…..this place must >> be changing for the better bc in the past Id get like 10 mean replies >> to one good one. I feel you support me…thank you very much!!! >> (((hugs))) >> SS likes to give real good advice to people and im not surprised he >> wants me to worry about a career and not a relationship…..you know >> what tho, everyone here knows that relationships that are good are >> real rare. and I know i just met mark but if i dont take the time to >> see if it might work, i might miss a real good chance with someone >> really really great. where i live – the competition for single guys >> is VICIOUS….so having some guy whos quality persuing ME is rare. >> ss is kind about looks to bc im no hottie either…but thank you so >> much for telling everyone good things like that because you know >> what, we should be telling each other stuff like that allllll the >> time. we should support each other and give alot of advice to each >> other. >is this teh same guy you were tellin me abowt backe in Septemberrr? >one that werks with u?

I believe that it is. Solitary Soul -> http://users3.ev1.net/~solitarysoul/ —————————————————– Welcome to alt.support.shyness, also known as The *PAIN* Club. - Solitary Soul

Response:

In news:ddd7a64077fa990e15b5858b12160083@localhost.talkaboutsupport.com, disneychick wrote : – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Well, no church date last night bc the heat wasn’t working real good > there – but we talked on the phone for like an hour. So theres > nothing to report back to you guys. but as soon as there is ill let > you guys know… > One thing I want to say, I want to say I am very surprised by how many > people wrote me giving support. Thank you so much…..this place must > be changing for the better bc in the past Id get like 10 mean replies > to one good one. I feel you support me…thank you very much!!! > (((hugs))) > SS likes to give real good advice to people and im not surprised he > wants me to worry about a career and not a relationship…..you know > what tho, everyone here knows that relationships that are good are > real rare. and I know i just met mark but if i dont take the time to > see if it might work, i might miss a real good chance with someone > really really great. where i live – the competition for single guys > is VICIOUS….so having some guy whos quality persuing ME is rare. > ss is kind about looks to bc im no hottie either…but thank you so > much for telling everyone good things like that because you know > what, we should be telling each other stuff like that allllll the > time. we should support each other and give alot of advice to each > other.

Hi Trisha. I hadn’t seen the 1st thread, so I’ve just been catching up. For now I haven’t read the other’s answers, but I’m afraid I’m going to say what you don’t want to hear : that he’s nearly 40… I think that you feel really lonely (I can understand that, trust me), and you feel a bit desperate… So I don’t say that this guy is not a good guy, but I’m sure you could find someone your age… Or a bit closer to your age… Have you talked about it with your parents? What do they say? He’s still older than the one you were with before… I don’t want to ruin your hopes and excitement, but I think you should try to cool down a little, and really think about it. If you just wanted to have an "affair" with a mature man, then I’d say go for it, but I know that you want something serious… Maybe you’ll tell me it’s stupid to judge people just by their age… But I don’t know, I must be very traditional at core… [and of course I'm jealous because I don't think that being without a bf for one year is very long... It's always the same thing when a girl posts to a.s.s. She never stays single for long, while the guys are left out and can't do nothing more than watching the other's lives... Even though I've just advised you to try to remain single for a little longer... Maybe it's because of the jealousy, who knows!?] Anyway, good luck to u. As parents say, all I want is u to be happy! — << You see everything, you see every part You see all my light, and you love my dark You dig everything of which I’m ashamed There’s not anything to which you can’t relate And you’re still here >> Alanis Morissette – Everything

Response:

Well, no church date last night bc the heat wasn’t working real good there – but we talked on the phone for like an hour. So theres nothing to report back to you guys. but as soon as there is ill let you guys know… One thing I want to say, I want to say I am very surprised by how many people wrote me giving support. Thank you so much…..this place must be changing for the better bc in the past Id get like 10 mean replies to one good one. I feel you support me…thank you very much!!! (((hugs))) SS likes to give real good advice to people and im not surprised he wants me to worry about a career and not a relationship…..you know what tho, everyone here knows that relationships that are good are real rare. and I know i just met mark but if i dont take the time to see if it might work, i might miss a real good chance with someone really really great. where i live – the competition for single guys is VICIOUS….so having some guy whos quality persuing ME is rare. ss is kind about looks to bc im no hottie either…but thank you so much for telling everyone good things like that because you know what, we should be telling each other stuff like that allllll the time. we should support each other and give alot of advice to each other.

Response:

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 04:07:18 -0500, "disneychick" wrote: >Well, no church date last night bc the heat wasn’t working real good there >- but we talked on the phone for like an hour.

Wow! I don’t think I’ll ever learn to sustain a conversation for an hour. I suppose those’re the kind of men women want. > So theres nothing to report >back to you guys. but as soon as there is ill let you guys know… >One thing I want to say, I want to say I am very surprised by how many >people wrote me giving support. Thank you so much…..this place must be >changing for the better bc in the past Id get like 10 mean replies to one >good one. I feel you support me…thank you very much!!! (((hugs))) >SS likes to give real good advice to people and im not surprised he wants >me to worry about a career and not a relationship….

Actually, he advised you to think about your prospective SO’s earning potential if you’re not going to work. There is nothing wrong with a woman staying home. >.you know what tho, >everyone here knows that relationships that are good are real rare. and I >know i just met mark but if i dont take the time to see if it might work, >i might miss a real good chance with someone really really great. where i >live – the competition for single guys is VICIOUS

Maybe competition for outgoing, flirtatious single men is vicious. >….so having some guy >whos quality persuing ME is rare.

What’s your definition of quality? If you believe it’s personality/attitude toward you alone, remember that it is more transitory than wealth or beauty and could easily be a facade. >ss is kind about looks to bc im no hottie either…but thank you so much >for telling everyone good things like that because you know what, we >should be telling each other stuff like that allllll the time. we should >support each other and give alot of advice to each other.

formerly Raul

Response:

Latro in news:ha8ds0hqd5phb15kvpej9h8m8arm8u3rib@4ax.com: > On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 04:07:18 -0500, "disneychick" > wrote: >>Well, no church date last night bc the heat wasn’t working real good >>there – but we talked on the phone for like an hour. > Wow! I don’t think I’ll ever learn to sustain a conversation for an > hour. I suppose those’re the kind of men women want.

i don’t want to seem VC-like, but here’s a link… http://groups.google.co.nz/groups?q=convo+conversation+%7C+maneuver&h… 8&group=alt.support.shyness&scoring=d&selm=Xns95BE1CDC11CB8ci%4064.85.239.1 9&rnum=1 and if you’ve got questions about omitted detail.. … >>(((hugs)))

mmm … >>….so having some guy whos quality persuing ME is rare. > What’s your definition of quality? If you believe it’s > personality/attitude toward you alone, remember that it is more > transitory than wealth or beauty and could easily be a facade.

yes… if charm/whatever is a facade then it’s even *less* than transitory.. >>ss is kind about looks to bc im no hottie either…but thank you so >>much for telling everyone good things like that because you know what, >>we should be telling each other stuff like that allllll the time. we >>should support each other and give alot of advice to each other.

and probably ss thinks you’re hot.. (doh.. heh heh)

Response:

"disneychick" wrote in message

news:ddd7a64077fa990e15b5858b12160083@localhost.talkaboutsupport.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Well, no church date last night bc the heat wasn’t working real good there > – but we talked on the phone for like an hour. So theres nothing to report > back to you guys. but as soon as there is ill let you guys know… > One thing I want to say, I want to say I am very surprised by how many > people wrote me giving support. Thank you so much…..this place must be > changing for the better bc in the past Id get like 10 mean replies to one > good one. I feel you support me…thank you very much!!! (((hugs))) > SS likes to give real good advice to people and im not surprised he wants > me to worry about a career and not a relationship…..you know what tho, > everyone here knows that relationships that are good are real rare. and I > know i just met mark but if i dont take the time to see if it might work, > i might miss a real good chance with someone really really great. where i > live – the competition for single guys is VICIOUS….so having some guy > whos quality persuing ME is rare. > ss is kind about looks to bc im no hottie either…but thank you so much > for telling everyone good things like that because you know what, we > should be telling each other stuff like that allllll the time. we should > support each other and give alot of advice to each other.

You will be going to hell.

Response:

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 04:07:18 -0500, "disneychick" wrote: >Well, no church date last night bc the heat wasn’t working real good there >- but we talked on the phone for like an hour. So theres nothing to report >back to you guys. but as soon as there is ill let you guys know… >One thing I want to say, I want to say I am very surprised by how many >people wrote me giving support. Thank you so much…..this place must be >changing for the better bc in the past Id get like 10 mean replies to one >good one. I feel you support me…thank you very much!!! (((hugs))) >SS likes to give real good advice to people and im not surprised he wants >me to worry about a career and not a relationship…..you know what tho, >everyone here knows that relationships that are good are real rare.

No – they are NOT all that rare – maybe for you, as the only relationship that you’ve had was more by accident than anything else: Your ex-fianc was the son of a friend of your father’s – so it was a matter of the guy being in the right place at the right time. The same thing is happening here. STOP begging for table scraps. > and I >know i just met mark but if i dont take the time to see if it might work, >i might miss a real good chance with someone really really great. where i >live – the competition for single guys is VICIOUS….so having some guy >whos quality persuing ME is rare.

It’s "rare" for you because of your SP – that’s why I’m STRONGLY urging you to hold off on any sort of meaningful relationship until you’ve been able to get your head together. I look at you and I’m reminded of RK – the main reason why the both of you have such difficulty in finding potential BF’s is that you both live within your own little boxes – sticking your heads out every once in a while to see what the weather’s like. The difference is that RK has a viable career going (software engineer – and this group would be quite impressed if they knew what she does), and she’s in the process of moving out of her parent’s house – she’s making some sort of progress (albeit slowly). If you were better able to function in social circumstances, you could have SEVERAL "quality" guys to choose from – ESPECIALLY when you’re a girl with a strong Christian faith: There are a lot of guys looking for girls like that. The problem is, you’re making yourself VERY difficult to find. I’ll repeat what I’ve told you before: DO NOT get too involved with this guy - you will regret it in the future. You have better options, but you have to get your act together before you can realize those options. BTW: What do your parents think about this guy? What happened to the mother of this guy’s children? … how did the relationship end with her? >ss is kind about looks to bc im no hottie either…

Take my word for it: You’re hot enough – at least a 9, and I believe that a lot of the guys in here would give you a 10. That you don’t think of yourself as being hot is a product of your own low self-esteem. *takes another look at Trisha’s pic* Yep – definitely hot. Your problem is your lack of social skills – SP. >but thank you so much >for telling everyone good things like that because you know what, we >should be telling each other stuff like that allllll the time. we should >support each other and give alot of advice to each other.

We shouldn’t lie to each other though – just to bolster self-esteem. That isn’t very useful, IMO. I’ve always tried to be straight with people - and I’m being straight with you, Trisha. Solitary Soul -> http://users3.ev1.net/~solitarysoul/ —————————————————– Welcome to alt.support.shyness, also known as The *PAIN* Club. - Solitary Soul

Response:

The Theory of Faith Itself

admin — Sat, 18 Dec 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Since Sol Invictus was not invented until 274AD, you can see immediately that the chap who told you this was telling a lie.

The Romans celebrated the solstice and the sun long before that. The pagan god Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th. Mithras was born of a ROCK!

Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th, was placed in a rock (cave) when he died, rose again after three days from the rock. All inconvenient, anyhow. Better just believe what the TV tells us, eh? All the best, Roger Pearse

What does the TV tell us? Gary Eickmeier

Response:

Since Sol Invictus was not invented until 274AD, you can see immediately that the chap who told you this was telling a lie. The Romans celebrated the solstice and the sun long before that.

Well… did they? Do you know this, or do you just suppose it? Which ancient texts say so? As for ‘celebrating the sun’, what ancient texts tell us about the cult of the Sun and the Moon in republican times? The pagan god Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th. Mithras was born of a ROCK! Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th, was placed in a rock (cave) when he died, rose again after three days from the rock.

This is untrue, as I have already mentioned. Why not look it up someone serious? Manfred Clauss’ book on ‘The Roman cult of Mithras’ is up to date, scholarly and comprehensive. All inconvenient, anyhow. Better just believe what the TV tells us, eh? What does the TV tell us?

Pardon? All the best, Roger Pearse

Response:

If you add "religious" to your terminology, you change the tenor. I was mostly trying to get you to be more specific. Religious faith is unreasonable and pointless.

Not all the time, it isn’t. The thing is, I think you’re arguing specifically against inerrancy. You won’t hear a quarrel with me about that. I think the Bible is useful and beautiful and reveals a great number of truths — but they’re not usually of the hard fact kind. The problem always comes — always — when mythos is interpreted as logos. Mythos has much to teach us. Myth isn’t simply fiction, but something deeper and more profound. But it doesn’t work as science, and wasn’t really ever intended to. Fundamentalism, at least in Christian circles, didn’t emerge until about the turn of the century. And I have a sense that fundamentalism does more to harm the religion than any external force ever could. Prior to the dogmatic insistence that the Bible is the divinely inspired, inerrant, literal, unquestionable word of God, science and religion co-existed quite nicely. How could they not? They address completely different questions. But science can’t answer Who are we? Why are we here? What is our purpose? How can we be good, moral people? See?

Well, sure, especially if you’re told that by people you love and trust, and who love you and want what’s best for you. But most people I know who believe different things than I do, believe them because they’re part and parcel of a whole worldview which helps them, and makes sense to them. Gary, people believe what they believe because that’s what makes sense to them at that point in time. It’s that easy. See? You agree with me! You should NOT have faith that I am right. QED.

LOL! Garbage It’s Usenet, Argument Central. The entire purpose of this venue is *not* taking something on faith, but asking for supporting evidence. Sunny

Response:

The only exploiting going on at Christmas time is the early Christians exploiting the pagan festivals that occurred at or near the solstice and the new year. It was Roman custom to decorate trees with lights, exchange gifts, and have grand banquets for the feast of Sol

Invictus. Since Sol Invictus was not invented until 274AD, you can see immediately that the chap who told you this was telling a lie. The pagan god Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th.

Mithras was born of a ROCK! The Christians couldn’t beat ‘em, so they joined them. That’s about all there is to it. The virgin birth, the wise men, the birth in Bethlehem in a cave – all bunk.

All inconvenient, anyhow. Better just believe what the TV tells us, eh? All the best, Roger Pearse

Response:

"True" Christianity rapidly disappeared shortly after it appeared and was replaced with religion as we see in what is called "Christianity" today. Customs, beliefs, and traditions indeed entered into many religions as they were taken from many social orders. The ceremonies and rituals of the RCC were taken from Judaism. Judaism was created to be a religion by religionists, as were all religions. The mind of mankind has great power of imagination, by which, religions, rituals, ceremonies and customs were created. Apart and separate from all of this, is God. Religion is merely a replacement for God, created to be such by mankind because mankind could not find God nor know God. So they created a cheap substitute called "religion." With religion came all of the false teachings concerning God. God cannot be known by the physical senses. To be carnally minded is to think the matters of God pertain to the physical as the religions teach. God is manifest to mankind in and by Spirit which is the substance inspired in the mind. In and by this way, God reveals who and what God is. Only by this revealing is any person able to "know" God. By experiencing the reality of God. Jesus of Nazareth did not start or create a religion. Quite the opposite. He condemned religionists and their religion and taught the way to "know" God. Every word he spoke concerning God referred to the reality of God, not superstition or "old wives tales." DW Suiter Son of God

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No. Actually "Christmas" is a time of celebration of the coming of Christ, not the birth of the man known as Jesus of Nazareth. People long ago celebrated because a new way was provided to mankind so they could escape from religion and know the reality of God. Christmas also is a time of revival of this "Spirit" which equates with love and good will. It began with God who provided this way for mankind to enter into, a way of being taught by God which results in a "Christ" coming to be by the work of God as the Teacher. "Christ" merely means anointed or taught one of God. "Son of God" merely means "creation" of God in mind and spirit. That’s all there is to it. Very simple. All the rest of the hoopla is a creation of religionists. Leading into the commercialization of this event. Same old story, exploitation for and by the love of money. I couldn’t figure out what you were answering until I scrolled down to the bottom of your post. Please consider editing the previous post, then responding at the bottom of it so we know where you’re coming from. Top posting is quick for you, rude to your readers. The only exploiting going on at Christmas time is the early Christians exploiting the pagan festivals that occurred at or near the solstice and the new year. It was Roman custom to decorate trees with lights, exchange gifts, and have grand banquets for the feast of Sol Invictus. The pagan god Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th. The Christians couldn’t beat ‘em, so they joined them. That’s about all there is to it. The virgin birth, the wise men, the birth in Bethlehem in a cave – all bunk. Gary Eickmeier

Response:

No. Actually "Christmas" is a time of celebration of the coming of Christ, not the birth of the man known as Jesus of Nazareth. People long ago celebrated because a new way was provided to mankind so they could escape from religion and know the reality of God. Christmas also is a time of revival of this "Spirit" which equates with love and good will. It began with God who provided this way for mankind to enter into, a way of being taught by God which results in a "Christ" coming to be by the work of God as the Teacher. "Christ" merely means anointed or taught one of God. "Son of God" merely means "creation" of God in mind and spirit. That’s all there is to it. Very simple. All the rest of the hoopla is a creation of religionists. Leading into the commercialization of this event. Same old story, exploitation for and by the love of money.

I couldn’t figure out what you were answering until I scrolled down to the bottom of your post. Please consider editing the previous post, then responding at the bottom of it so we know where you’re coming from. Top posting is quick for you, rude to your readers. The only exploiting going on at Christmas time is the early Christians exploiting the pagan festivals that occurred at or near the solstice and the new year. It was Roman custom to decorate trees with lights, exchange gifts, and have grand banquets for the feast of Sol Invictus. The pagan god Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th. The Christians couldn’t beat ‘em, so they joined them. That’s about all there is to it. The virgin birth, the wise men, the birth in Bethlehem in a cave – all bunk. Gary Eickmeier

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And to you Sunny, a very Merry Christmas and wishes for the best New Year, to you and yours. DW Suiter Son of God Hey, Son – is this your birthday as well? Gary Eickmeier

Response:

But science can’t answer Who are we? Why are we here? What is our purpose? How can we be good, moral people? See?

Neither can religion… Thanks for a great discussion. I think I answered my own question when I remarked that faith in ordinary things was reasonable because it is based on a period of observation. So we are told that the religious people are basing their beliefs on a long period of observation as well – the bible – but the whole thing is a collection of fables, stories, and fairy tales that can’t be accepted as reliable. Nor have the people saying they have observed the truth of the bible for a long time period a leg to stand on. Pure bullshitters. Gary Eickmeier

Response:

But science can’t answer Who are we? Why are we here? What is our purpose? How can we be good, moral people? See? Neither can religion…

Not for you, perhaps. But I don’t think you could honestly posit that it doesn’t address those very questions for a great number of people. Thanks for a great discussion.

It was at least non-acrimonious, which is a nice change of pace on Usent. I think I answered my own question when I remarked that faith in ordinary things was reasonable because it is based on a period of observation. So we are told that the religious people are basing their beliefs on a long period of observation as well – the bible – but the whole thing is a collection of fables, stories, and fairy tales that can’t be accepted as reliable. Nor have the people saying they have observed the truth of the bible for a long time period a leg to stand on. Pure bullshitters.

If you like Sunny

Response:

And to you Sunny, a very Merry Christmas and wishes for the best New Year, to you and yours. DW Suiter Son of God

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

And to you Sunny, a very Merry Christmas and wishes for the best New Year, to you and yours. DW Suiter Son of God

Hey, Son – is this your birthday as well? Gary Eickmeier

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I could be wrong – or perhaps we should differentiate religious faith from, say, faith in your spouse or faith that this message will make its way through the ether and be posted in the newsgroup. In the latter examples, such faith is based on a long period of observation, and is not unreasonable. But an awful lot of research should be undertaken before some of the doctrines of religion even approach reasonableness. So if someone says you’ve just got to believe, you’ve just got to have faith, then I say that is not a valid concept. Here’s a thought. Consider how much in a given day you take on "faith"; meaning, how much you trust to be factual, when the only evidence you have for it is that someone told it to you (which is, in most cases, the same way religious doctrines are continued).

Seems to me we are pretty much in agreement. If I just add the term "religious" to what I am talking about. Religious faith is unreasonable and pointless. If you, at a party, met a man who said his name was Bob Smith, and during conversation he revealed that he was married and had two kids, and had just moved to the area, and dabbled in real estate, and loved the smell of roast beef, you would leave that conversation believing all those things — without proof. Why? Because most of the time, people tell the truth; and beyond that, even if what they say is not truth, *they* believe it. That’s how humans operate. It’s normal and reasonable. You’d never get anywhere if you had to verify every single thing you ever heard before you acted on it.

But if Bob told me his wife was visited by an angel, who impregnated her with the son of God, who was going to save us from Adam’s sin, then I might not accept what he said on faith. And no reasonable person or persons can tell me that it is a virtue to take those things on "faith." And since humans operate that way, when a trusted, beloved minister or parent tells you things about God, you tend to believe them, too — or take it on faith.

And there lies the problem. From childhood, we are told all of these fantastic tales, that they are supernatural events, and that many, if not most, adults believe that they are true. The believers are praised as "people of faith." And then, sometimes, whether it’s about Bob Smith, actually an escaped unmarried vegetarian convict, or Adam and Eve the literal man and woman, later things told you/read contradict that which you previously held to be true. So you have to sort them out, and see which one makes more sense.

YES! So "faith" is a non starter. Religious faith, not faith in the next sunrise. The language is limited, so we differentiate between religious faith, which is what I am talking about, and general faith in believable things. To summarize my proposition: The theory that religious faith is a virtue, or something we should all strive for, makes no sense. Seems like a simple point at first, but I was taught that I should believe even if I didn’t witness any of it firsthand, even if it seems fantastic, because God told us it is so. Hard to argue against that. That’s about the best I can do for now, and if that doesn’t explain it, I’ll stop trying. Or, you could just have faith that I am right. No way, Jose.

See? You agree with me! You should NOT have faith that I am right. QED. Gary Eickmeier

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well stated Sunny. Paul, as presented by scrupture, stated faith is a little more. The substance of things "hoped for" but not yet received. Indicating not only strong belief the giver would give but the rceiver would receive. Addressing a promise rather than an existance. You guys may be talking more about "hope" than faith. What I am talking about is faith in statements such as "I lost my faith." I am under the impression, correct me if I am wrong, that you are asked to buy most of the tenets without proof, or you may go to hell. What I am saying is that if you have doubts, then the bubble of faith, if you had it before, is bursted and there is nothing you can do about it. My best friend wrote to me and remarked, you are my best pal, even if you are leaning to atheist. I wrote back and jokingly remarked that I might be an agnostic – I haven’t got enough faith to be an atheist. The obvious joke is that an agnostic has lost his "faith," but isn’t sure enough of himself to be a full-blown atheist. So – to try one last time – if I am operating in a region in which I am reading everything I can to see just what is known and what is bullpucky, if I can sort of see merit to "intelligent design" or the "uncaused cause" of the very existence of the universe, but I also believe in evolution and science and common sense; in short, if I am trying to form a concept of reality and existence, then I am no longer operating in a region of "faith," and such a concept is, in fact, meaningless. So if you are still a child and have unquestioning faith in everything you have been taught about religion, would that have any more merit than my current position? Is "faith" a good thing, or even a valid concept? I think Stillsunny nailed it with his description of: "Faith as a concept is a descriptor of a sort of strongly held belief, lacking evidence." I am proposing that there is nothing good about that, and therefore it should be rejected as a goal of good people. I could be wrong – or perhaps we should differentiate religious faith from, say, faith in your spouse or faith that this message will make its way through the ether and be posted in the newsgroup. In the latter examples, such faith is based on a long period of observation, and is not unreasonable. But an awful lot of research should be undertaken before some of the doctrines of religion even approach reasonableness. So if someone says you’ve just got to believe, you’ve just got to have faith, then I say that is not a valid concept. That’s about the best I can do for now, and if that doesn’t explain it, I’ll stop trying. Or, you could just have faith that I am right. Gary Eickmeier

I believe you are confusing "faith" with "belief." Faith is more of an expectation than belief in a word given by a person. Faith is the expectation a word will come true, especially a word of promise. Belief is merely accepting a presented word to be true. Although very similar, these two have their differences. Faith is placed more in what has been stated "shall come to be." It is hard to have faith in what certain persons say, such as attorneys, preachers, and politicians. Simply because what they have said "shall be" does not come to be even when people "believed" what they said. Most children place faith in what their parents say until they learn parents use "little white lies." Believing what a person says is different than having faith that what they say will come to be. Placing faith in religious teachings is foolish considering the many different religions that teach different "truths" concerning one matter. Religion is a very dangerous matter. Religions have each and all formulated their teachings and doctrines on what they have been taught, which originated with the founder of the religion. Sometimes it is easy, sometimes it is difficult to prove the truth of a matter. Without a way to prove the truth of a matter, a person is left to choose to believe or not believe. If they believe, then they may place their faith in the person giving a word and faith in the word its self. Most people have faith in their selves concerning many matters and this equates to self confidence. And, many people place their faith in other people and what other people say. Faith is a bit more than mere belief. It includes expectation. DW Suiter Son of God

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well stated Sunny. Paul, as presented by scrupture, stated faith is a little more. The substance of things "hoped for" but not yet received. Indicating not only strong belief the giver would give but the rceiver would receive. Addressing a promise rather than an existance. You guys may be talking more about "hope" than faith. What I am talking about is faith in statements such as "I lost my faith." I am under the impression, correct me if I am wrong, that you are asked to buy most of the tenets without proof, or you may go to hell.

Okay. You’re wrong What I am trying diligently to point out is that you are arguing against a very specific belief or set of beliefs, but have conflated them with more general "faith". If you want to argue about the concept of faith, specifically, it needs to be clearly delineated from the *specific* faith beliefs you dispute. I haven’t decided yet if it’s a fallacy of composition or hasty generalization. http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html So — some few churches, and an apparently large number of Usenet posters, may well think that if you don’t believe in a 6,000 year creation (for instance), you’re going to hell — but I very much doubt that most Christians, even those who actually believe in a 6,000 year creation, would say that your challenge to that claim meant you were hellbound. They might think you were wrong, but that one tenet wouldn’t qualify as necessary or sufficient to doom you. What I am saying is that if you have doubts, then the bubble of faith, if you had it before, is bursted and there is nothing you can do about it.

In that, you are correct, and it’s probably why so much religious discussion is angry. When people get threatened, they respond badly. So – to try one last time – if I am operating in a region in which I am reading everything I can to see just what is known and what is bullpucky, if I can sort of see merit to "intelligent design" or the "uncaused cause" of the very existence of the universe, but I also believe in evolution and science and common sense; in short, if I am trying to form a concept of reality and existence, then I am no longer operating in a region of "faith," and such a concept is, in fact, meaningless.

No, it really isn’t. The *specific* beliefs you’re talking about cannot coexist with rigorous scientific scrutiny, but faith itself isn’t meaningless at all.

Here’s a thought. Consider how much in a given day you take on "faith"; meaning, how much you trust to be factual, when the only evidence you have for it is that someone told it to you (which is, in most cases, the same way religious doctrines are continued). If you, at a party, met a man who said his name was Bob Smith, and during conversation he revealed that he was married and had two kids, and had just moved to the area, and dabbled in real estate, and loved the smell of roast beef, you would leave that conversation believing all those things — without proof. Why? Because most of the time, people tell the truth; and beyond that, even if what they say is not truth, *they* believe it. That’s how humans operate. It’s normal and reasonable. You’d never get anywhere if you had to verify every single thing you ever heard before you acted on it. And since humans operate that way, when a trusted, beloved minister or parent tells you things about God, you tend to believe them, too — or take it on faith. And then, sometimes, whether it’s about Bob Smith, actually an escaped unmarried vegetarian convict, or Adam and Eve the literal man and woman, later things told you/read contradict that which you previously held to be true. So you have to sort them out, and see which one makes more sense. That’s about the best I can do for now, and if that doesn’t explain it, I’ll stop trying. Or, you could just have faith that I am right.

No way, Jose. Sunny

Response:

You guys may be talking more about "hope" than faith. What I am talking about is faith in statements such as "I lost my faith." I am under the impression, correct me if I am wrong, that you are asked to buy most of the tenets without proof, or you may go to hell. What I am saying is that if you have doubts, then the bubble of faith, if you had it before, is bursted and there is nothing you can do about it. My best friend wrote to me and remarked, you are my best pal, even if you are leaning to atheist. I wrote back and jokingly remarked that I might be an agnostic – I haven’t got enough faith to be an atheist. The obvious joke is that an agnostic has lost his "faith," but isn’t sure enough of himself to be a full-blown atheist. So – to try one last time – if I am operating in a region in which I am reading everything I can to see just what is known and what is bullpucky, if I can sort of see merit to "intelligent design" or the "uncaused cause" of the very existence of the universe, but I also believe in evolution and science and common sense; in short, if I am trying to form a concept of reality and existence, then I am no longer operating in a region of "faith," and such a concept is, in fact, meaningless. So if you are still a child and have unquestioning faith in everything you have been taught about religion, would that have any more merit than my current position? Is "faith" a good thing, or even a valid concept? I think Stillsunny nailed it with his description of: "Faith as a concept is a descriptor of a sort of strongly held belief, lacking evidence." I am proposing that there is nothing good about that, and therefore it should be rejected as a goal of good people. I could be wrong – or perhaps we should differentiate religious faith from, say, faith in your spouse or faith that this message will make its way through the ether and be posted in the newsgroup. In the latter examples, such faith is based on a long period of observation, and is not unreasonable. But an awful lot of research should be undertaken before some of the doctrines of religion even approach reasonableness. So if someone says you’ve just got to believe, you’ve just got to have faith, then I say that is not a valid concept. That’s about the best I can do for now, and if that doesn’t explain it, I’ll stop trying. Or, you could just have faith that I am right. Gary Eickmeier

Response:

Sometimes you have to believe you’re loved, all evidence to the contrary, to begin to act like a lovingperson. (etc, etc) Thanks, but I don’t think you’re getting my point. I’m talking about belief in the literacy of the bible, belief in all of the points in the Apostles’ Creed, faith that all of the mythology of religion is true, and you must believe it is true, or else. If you have a problem with the virgin birth, or the divinity of Jesus, or the resurrection – then you do not go along with the whole story, and faith no longer applies, or even exists. You are now in the area of reason and evidence, and there is no turning back.

I am getting your point, actually. I suspect you’re interested in provoking a vigorous discussion with someone who equates the simple term "faith" with a belief in the literal, objective truth of the Bible stories. Yet you’re equivocating the two — "faith", even Christian faith, doesn’t necessarily equal dogmatic belief in the literal inerrancy of the Bible. As I pointed out, even *in* the Bible, the term is used to indicate either faith in the goodwill and power of God, or (in Paul) as faith in Jesus to create a sort of bridge between humans and God. It isn’t until later that the notion that faith must include belief in every aspect of historically informed Christian doctrine and word for word inerrancy of the Bible became popular. Conclusion: faith is a pointless concept.

Faith as a concept is a descriptor of a sort of strongly held belief, lacking evidence. Faith itself is a real aspect of the human animal, not a concept at all *in* those humans. Further, as I already stated, actually having faith can provide the confidence and optimism to actually effect the positive changes envisioned *by* the faith. Thus, not pointless, irrespective of the objective provability of the thing believed, and even if you’re measuring by objective standards. Sunny

Response:

Well stated Sunny. Paul, as presented by scrupture, stated faith is a little more. The substance of things "hoped for" but not yet received. Indicating not only strong belief the giver would give but the rceiver would receive. Addressing a promise rather than an existance. Agreeing with the word, "God is faithful and true" and shall fulfill this promise without doubt. Faith no longer exists when the promise is fulfilled. It is replaced with the substance that was once hoped for and becomes sure knowledge, a possession. No different than a person having faith in their selves, that they may accomplish a task. When they have completed the task, they no longer have mere faith, but sure knowledge they are able to accomplish the task. What was hoped for has come to be. Stay warm, DW Suiter Son of God

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sometimes you have to believe you’re loved, all evidence to the contrary, to begin to act like a lovingperson. (etc, etc) Thanks, but I don’t think you’re getting my point. I’m talking about belief in the literacy of the bible, belief in all of the points in the Apostles’ Creed, faith that all of the mythology of religion is true, and you must believe it is true, or else. If you have a problem with the virgin birth, or the divinity of Jesus, or the resurrection – then you do not go along with the whole story, and faith no longer applies, or even exists. You are now in the area of reason and evidence, and there is no turning back. I am getting your point, actually. I suspect you’re interested in provoking a vigorous discussion with someone who equates the simple term "faith" with a belief in the literal, objective truth of the Bible stories. Yet you’re equivocating the two — "faith", even Christian faith, doesn’t necessarily equal dogmatic belief in the literal inerrancy of the Bible. As I pointed out, even *in* the Bible, the term is used to indicate either faith in the goodwill and power of God, or (in Paul) as faith in Jesus to create a sort of bridge between humans and God. It isn’t until later that the notion that faith must include belief in every aspect of historically informed Christian doctrine and word for word inerrancy of the Bible became popular. Conclusion: faith is a pointless concept. Faith as a concept is a descriptor of a sort of strongly held belief, lacking evidence. Faith itself is a real aspect of the human animal, not a concept at all *in* those humans. Further, as I already stated, actually having faith can provide the confidence and optimism to actually effect the positive changes envisioned *by* the faith. Thus, not pointless, irrespective of the objective provability of the thing believed, and even if you’re measuring by objective standards. Sunny

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As to the faith that good can come, I’d submit that sometimes it’s the unreasoning, unreasonable belief that it *will* which actually inspires an individual or group to work to effect good change. As to the Pauline directives, I have the sense that most humans have some subconscious awareness of their own imperfections; some subterranean, and suppressed, belief that they are, at bottom, not very good people, and probably don’t deserve much. And if belief in Jesus as a mystical atonement for those things they know they fall short in actually leads them to begin to be the people they feel like they want to be, then more power to them. Sometimes you have to believe you’re loved, all evidence to the contrary, to begin to act lik ealovingperson.Sometimesyouhavetobelieve you’re strong, a lifetime of evidence to the contrary, to find that strength. And sometimes you have to believe that you can be good, despite your own history, to actually overcome the historic pattern of bad behavior. Sunny

Thanks, but I don’t think you’re getting my point. I’m talking about belief in the literacy of the bible, belief in all of the points in the Apostles’ Creed, faith that all of the mythology of religion is true, and you must believe it is true, or else. If you have a problem with the virgin birth, or the divinity of Jesus, or the resurrection – then you do not go along with the whole story, and faith no longer applies, or even exists. You are now in the area of reason and evidence, and there is no turning back. Conclusion: faith is a pointless concept. Gary Eickmeier

Response:

The only reason religious faith even exists is that people think that, even if we can’t prove all of the tenets of a given religion, or even the existence of God, we should believe anyway, because that proves our "faithfulness." No, the guru tells you, I can’t prove it – you just have to accept it on faith alone. That is what will save you. Blessed is he who believes without seeing, etc etc. My problem with this faith theory is what happens when doubt creeps in. Maybe you have been reading too much, maybe someone influenced you, or perhaps just the realization that Jesus was not born on December 25th – whatever the cause, you begin to doubt the truthfulness of parts of the story, and then, if those parts are bunk, is it possible the whole religion is built on a house of cards? Pure bumpkus? Now you’ve got a problem, because the bubble of faith has been broken. You can’t just pretend to go on believing, because even if you tell others that you are still a good Christian or whatever, you can’t lie to God (or to yourself, obviously)! Once you learn that there is no Santa Claus, there is nothing you can do about believing in him again. In this eventuality, there is no longer a valid concept of "faith." Your beliefs in the world around you are constructed on a lifetime of learning and reasoning, and an unreasonable belief just has no place in any construct of reality. So what do you "faithy" guys think about this whole dilemma? Gary Eickmeier

Response:

I think faith exists because humans are themselves hopeful, and even unreasonably optimistic in the face of adverse circumstances. "Faith" is basically hope with conviction. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -My problem with this faith theory is what happens when doubt creeps in. Maybe you have been reading too much, maybe someone influenced you, or perhaps just the realization that Jesus was not born on December 25th – whatever the cause, you begin to doubt the truthfulness of parts of the story, and then, if those parts are bunk, is it possible the whole religion is built on a house of cards? Pure bumpkus? Now you’ve got a problem, because the bubble of faith has been broken. You can’t just pretend to go on believing, because even if you tell others that you are still a good Christian or whatever, you can’t lie to God (or to yourself, obviously)! Once you learn that there is no Santa Claus, there is nothing you can do about believing in him again.

True, that. Yet — in the brief scan I made, I can’t find "faith" used even in the Bible to mean "strong belief in the literal nature of Adam and Eve" or "dogmatic insistence that water can turn to wine." I have the sense that, for most people, on some level they may not even identify, the "faith" has a whole lot to do with some things they instinctively *sense* about themselves. I don’t know how to do this and make it short, but my converted to fundamentalist father in law loves to intone "If you believe it, *then* you can see it." And honestly, I think he’s right — except that there’s a lot of stuff that’s gotten attached to the whole religion. In this eventuality, there is no longer a valid concept of "faith." Your beliefs in the world around you are constructed on a lifetime of learning and reasoning, and an unreasonable belief just has no place in any construct of reality. So what do you "faithy" guys think about this whole dilemma?

A scan of the gospels indicates Jesus used the word "faith" often to indicate a strong belief that God was good, and God could and would effect miraculous changes in the lives of those who believed enough to ask. The Pauline epistles focus more on faith in Jesus himself — that through Jesus, all could be saved (presumably from death, since that’s what Paul indicates is the right penalty for being human). As to the faith that good can come, I’d submit that sometimes it’s the unreasoning, unreasonable belief that it *will* which actually inspires an individual or group to work to effect good change. As to the Pauline directives, I have the sense that most humans have some subconscious awareness of their own imperfections; some subterranean, and suppressed, belief that they are, at bottom, not very good people, and probably don’t deserve much. And if belief in Jesus as a mystical atonement for those things they know they fall short in actually leads them to begin to be the people they feel like they want to be, then more power to them. Sometimes you have to believe you’re loved, all evidence to the contrary, to begin to act like a loving person. Sometimes you have to believe you’re strong, a lifetime of evidence to the contrary, to find that strength. And sometimes you have to believe that you can be good, despite your own history, to actually overcome the historic pattern of bad behavior. Sunny

Response:

Absence of Light

admin — Thu, 09 Dec 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Bill said: Well, actually – light has BOTH the characteristics of a wave and a particle. So in a sense it is both – a hybrid. Actually, the most appropriate descriptor for light would probably be "wavicle" (and NO, I’m not kidding). Michaela: and that is what I saw in the text. For me it is a wonderful way to talk about duality. (To me it’s not necessary tounderstand quantum physics and the like in order to have a "sense" of what it’s about.) – Michaela

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Doug Anderson wrote: > "Tai" writes: >> Doug Anderson wrote: >>> With light, not really; in theory it is possible to have a device >>> which cancels the light but no one has built one. If you think of >>> light as a wave (which you really shouldn’t) then you need a device >>> that produces a cancelling wave. I really don’t know if this could >>> even be done theoretically, but I _think_ it is supposed to be >>> possible. >> Those headset devices that cancel out sound by generating opposing sound >> waves – to get rid of background noise - look pretty interesting. Have you >> ever tried one? I’m waiting until one of my friends decides that’s the next >> toy they desperately need to have. > They’re very cool. They work well on low-frequency background noise. > A friend tells me that on the plane, they cancel out a lot of the > engine noise with the result that suddenly you can hear all the > conversations around you which you would normally be unaware of! > Doug

Yeah, but you can get to a point where you can do that yourself, if you have enough mental control. You just need to tune the (upstairs) notch filter correctly.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Tai" writes: > Doug Anderson wrote: > > With light, not really; in theory it is possible to have a device > > which cancels the light but no one has built one. If you think of > > light as a wave (which you really shouldn’t) then you need a device > > that produces a cancelling wave. I really don’t know if this could > > even be done theoretically, but I _think_ it is supposed to be > > possible. > Those headset devices that cancel out sound by generating opposing sound > waves – to get rid of background noise - look pretty interesting. Have you > ever tried one? I’m waiting until one of my friends decides that’s the next > toy they desperately need to have.

They’re very cool. They work well on low-frequency background noise. A friend tells me that on the plane, they cancel out a lot of the engine noise with the result that suddenly you can hear all the conversations around you which you would normally be unaware of! Doug

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Doug Anderson wrote: > "Bill in Co." writes: >> Doug Anderson wrote: >>> Ellie writes: >>>> Tai wrote: >>>>> Tony Miller wrote: >>>>>> We measure heat. We measure light. We don’t measure cold or >>>>>> darkness. >>>>> Not really, we measure temperature and we experience different >>>>> temperatures as heat, warmth, cold etc. Heat and cold and light and >>>>> darkness are what we call different points or values on two >>>>> different sliding scales, one of temperature and the other the >>>>> electromagnetic spectrum which encompasses far more than what is >>>>> actually visible to human eyes. >>>>> (someone else explain this better, please) >>>> You explained it pretty well, but my mind is toast tonight and can’t >>>> grasp deep concepts like sliding scales and electromagnetic spectrum >>>> and stuff! All I know is that if this room that I am sitting in was >>>> dark and I wanted it lit up I had to bring in a source of light, but >>>> if it was lit up and I wanted it dark I couldn’t bring a source of >>>> darkness in, I had to take out (or cover) the source of light. So no >>>> matter how I look at it I am dealing only with *light*. Can you tell >>>> me where I’m going wrong?! >>> With light, not really; in theory it is possible to have a device >>> which cancels the light but no one has built one. If you think of >>> light as a wave (which you really shouldn’t) then you need a device >>> that produces a cancelling wave. I really don’t know if this could >>> even be done theoretically, but I _think_ it is supposed to be >>> possible. >> Well, actually – light has BOTH the characteristics of a wave and a >> particle. So in a sense it is both – a hybrid. >> Actually, the most appropriate descriptor for light would probably be >> "wavicle" (and NO, I’m not kidding). > Most appropriate is not to think of it as a wave or a particle. Light > is what it is, and that doesn’t happen to be either a wave or a > particle, though in some respects it has wave-like behavior, and in > other respects it has particle-like behavior. > But those are just models.

I already told ya what it was. It’s a wavicle! What’s so hard to understand about that?

Response:

Doug Anderson wrote: > With light, not really; in theory it is possible to have a device > which cancels the light but no one has built one. If you think of > light as a wave (which you really shouldn’t) then you need a device > that produces a cancelling wave. I really don’t know if this could > even be done theoretically, but I _think_ it is supposed to be > possible.

Those headset devices that cancel out sound by generating opposing sound waves – to get rid of background noise - look pretty interesting. Have you ever tried one? I’m waiting until one of my friends decides that’s the next toy they desperately need to have. Tai

Response:

"Bill in Co." writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Doug Anderson wrote: > > Ellie writes: > >> Tai wrote: > >>> Tony Miller wrote: > >>>> We measure heat. We measure light. We don’t measure cold or > >>>> darkness. > >>> Not really, we measure temperature and we experience different > >>> temperatures as heat, warmth, cold etc. Heat and cold and light and > >>> darkness are what we call different points or values on two > >>> different sliding scales, one of temperature and the other the > >>> electromagnetic spectrum which encompasses far more than what is > >>> actually visible to human eyes. > >>> (someone else explain this better, please) > >> You explained it pretty well, but my mind is toast tonight and can’t > >> grasp deep concepts like sliding scales and electromagnetic spectrum > >> and stuff! All I know is that if this room that I am sitting in was > >> dark and I wanted it lit up I had to bring in a source of light, but > >> if it was lit up and I wanted it dark I couldn’t bring a source of > >> darkness in, I had to take out (or cover) the source of light. So no > >> matter how I look at it I am dealing only with *light*. Can you tell > >> me where I’m going wrong?! > > With light, not really; in theory it is possible to have a device > > which cancels the light but no one has built one. If you think of > > light as a wave (which you really shouldn’t) then you need a device > > that produces a cancelling wave. I really don’t know if this could > > even be done theoretically, but I _think_ it is supposed to be > > possible. > Well, actually – light has BOTH the characteristics of a wave and a > particle. So in a sense it is both – a hybrid. > Actually, the most appropriate descriptor for light would probably be > "wavicle" (and NO, I’m not kidding).

Most appropriate is not to think of it as a wave or a particle. Light is what it is, and that doesn’t happen to be either a wave or a particle, though in some respects it has wave-like behavior, and in other respects it has particle-like behavior. But those are just models.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Ellie wrote: > Tai wrote: >> Tony Miller wrote: >>> We measure heat. We measure light. We don’t measure cold or >>> darkness. >> Not really, we measure temperature and we experience different >> temperatures as heat, warmth, cold etc. Heat and cold and light and >> darkness are what we call different points or values on two >> different sliding scales, one of temperature and the other the >> electromagnetic spectrum which encompasses far more than what is >> actually visible to human eyes. >> (someone else explain this better, please) > You explained it pretty well, but my mind is toast tonight and can’t > grasp deep concepts like sliding scales and electromagnetic spectrum > and stuff! All I know is that if this room that I am sitting in was > dark and I wanted it lit up I had to bring in a source of light, but > if it was lit up and I wanted it dark I couldn’t bring a source of > darkness in, I had to take out (or cover) the source of light. So no > matter how I look at it I am dealing only with *light*. Can you tell > me where I’m going wrong?!

LOL You just need to invent anti-light particles, Ellie, and sprinkle them around the room…. Tai

Response:

On 09 Dec 2004 09:50:40 -0800, Doug Anderson – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text - wrote: > emma_a…@mac.com (Emma Anne) writes: >> Doug Anderson wrote: >> > michaelamackenzie05072…@yahoo.com writes: >> > (snip) >> > > The young man’s name — Albert Einstein >> > I assume you all realize that OT or not, this story is a fabrication. >> I checked to see if you had answered before I bothered to go to Snopes. >> > OK, now I’m going to get even more off-topic. > So I find urban legends really interesting. I think they are stories > that we tell ourselves because we find these stories comforting, or at > least that there is something about them that makes us feel good about > ourselves. > The Einstein urban legend that I’m most aware of is the on which says > that "Einstein flunked math." (Nothing could be further from the > truth.) I understand why we like that. It says that one of the > world’s most brilliant people still had trouble with math (or at least > had trouble with how it was taught in school). > This legend is a bit more mysterious to me. It pits some poor > anonymous ethics or philosphy professor against someone who is > generally considered to be one of history’s smarter individuals. > Maybe it appeals to our desire to laugh at foolish people, but to be > sure "Einstein’s" argument is pretty weak too, so this university > professor has to be very foolish to not see it coming and to not be > able to rebut it.

So how DO you rebut it? I have always found the argument compelling. And having Einstein say it gives it a bit more secular weight than if… say… Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther, Oral Roberts or the Pope said it? -Tony — "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it’s time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Doug Anderson wrote: > Ellie writes: >> Tai wrote: >>> Tony Miller wrote: >>>> We measure heat. We measure light. We don’t measure cold or >>>> darkness. >>> Not really, we measure temperature and we experience different >>> temperatures as heat, warmth, cold etc. Heat and cold and light and >>> darkness are what we call different points or values on two >>> different sliding scales, one of temperature and the other the >>> electromagnetic spectrum which encompasses far more than what is >>> actually visible to human eyes. >>> (someone else explain this better, please) >> You explained it pretty well, but my mind is toast tonight and can’t >> grasp deep concepts like sliding scales and electromagnetic spectrum >> and stuff! All I know is that if this room that I am sitting in was >> dark and I wanted it lit up I had to bring in a source of light, but >> if it was lit up and I wanted it dark I couldn’t bring a source of >> darkness in, I had to take out (or cover) the source of light. So no >> matter how I look at it I am dealing only with *light*. Can you tell >> me where I’m going wrong?! > With light, not really; in theory it is possible to have a device > which cancels the light but no one has built one. If you think of > light as a wave (which you really shouldn’t) then you need a device > that produces a cancelling wave. I really don’t know if this could > even be done theoretically, but I _think_ it is supposed to be > possible.

Well, actually – light has BOTH the characteristics of a wave and a particle. So in a sense it is both – a hybrid. Actually, the most appropriate descriptor for light would probably be "wavicle" (and NO, I’m not kidding). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> With heat though, it is pretty clear that the situation is symmetric > although it requires more technology (e.g. air conditioning) to make > "cold" than it does to make "hot." > Doug

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Ellie writes: > Tai wrote: > > Tony Miller wrote: > >>We measure heat. We measure light. We don’t measure cold or > >>darkness. > > Not really, we measure temperature and we experience different > > temperatures as heat, warmth, cold etc. Heat and cold and light and > > darkness are what we call different points or values on two > > different sliding scales, one of temperature and the other the > > electromagnetic spectrum which encompasses far more than what is > > actually visible to human eyes. > > (someone else explain this better, please) > You explained it pretty well, but my mind is toast tonight and can’t > grasp deep concepts like sliding scales and electromagnetic spectrum > and stuff! All I know is that if this room that I am sitting in was > dark and I wanted it lit up I had to bring in a source of light, but > if it was lit up and I wanted it dark I couldn’t bring a source of > darkness in, I had to take out (or cover) the source of light. So no > matter how I look at it I am dealing only with *light*. Can you tell > me where I’m going wrong?!

With light, not really; in theory it is possible to have a device which cancels the light but no one has built one. If you think of light as a wave (which you really shouldn’t) then you need a device that produces a cancelling wave. I really don’t know if this could even be done theoretically, but I _think_ it is supposed to be possible. With heat though, it is pretty clear that the situation is symmetric although it requires more technology (e.g. air conditioning) to make "cold" than it does to make "hot." Doug

Response:

Tony Miller wrote: > We measure heat. We measure light. We don’t measure cold or > darkness.

Not really, we measure temperature and we experience different temperatures as heat, warmth, cold etc. Heat and cold and light and darkness are what we call different points or values on two different sliding scales, one of temperature and the other the electromagnetic spectrum which encompasses far more than what is actually visible to human eyes. Tai (someone else explain this better, please)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tony Miller writes: > On 09 Dec 2004 16:31:36 -0800, Doug Anderson > wrote: > > Tony Miller writes: > >> On 09 Dec 2004 09:50:40 -0800, Doug Anderson > >> wrote: > >> > emma_a…@mac.com (Emma Anne) writes: > >> >> Doug Anderson wrote: > >> >> > michaelamackenzie05072…@yahoo.com writes: > >> >> > (snip) > >> >> > > The young man’s name — Albert Einstein > >> >> > I assume you all realize that OT or not, this story is a fabrication. > >> >> I checked to see if you had answered before I bothered to go to Snopes. > >> >> > >> > OK, now I’m going to get even more off-topic. > >> > So I find urban legends really interesting. I think they are stories > >> > that we tell ourselves because we find these stories comforting, or at > >> > least that there is something about them that makes us feel good about > >> > ourselves. > >> > The Einstein urban legend that I’m most aware of is the on which says > >> > that "Einstein flunked math." (Nothing could be further from the > >> > truth.) I understand why we like that. It says that one of the > >> > world’s most brilliant people still had trouble with math (or at least > >> > had trouble with how it was taught in school). > >> > This legend is a bit more mysterious to me. It pits some poor > >> > anonymous ethics or philosphy professor against someone who is > >> > generally considered to be one of history’s smarter individuals. > >> > Maybe it appeals to our desire to laugh at foolish people, but to be > >> > sure "Einstein’s" argument is pretty weak too, so this university > >> > professor has to be very foolish to not see it coming and to not be > >> > able to rebut it. > >> So how DO you rebut it? I have always found the argument compelling. And > >> having Einstein say it gives it a bit more secular weight than if… > >> say… Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther, Oral Roberts or the Pope said > >> it? > > Well, firstly, Einstein _didn’t_ say it. the story is a > > fabrication. So you can forget about whatever extra weight it might > > have had if he did say it. > > As far as rebutting it, there are two obvious problems: > > 1) if you believe that people, god, or anyone can create evil, then > > you _don’t_ believe that evil is simply the absence of good. > > Conversely, if you really believe that evil is simply the absence > > of good, then no one is capable of doing evil, merely of failing to > > do good. And _that_ seems to fly in the face off our experiences. > Why is that? "*Merely* of failing to do good"? LOL!!!

Do you really believe that evil is simply the absence of doing good? If you murder someone you haven’t done something bad, you just didn’t do the good thing of letting them live? Can you seriously answer the previous question "yes?" > > 2) The physics is being told in a screwed up way. If you are going to > > say that "cold doesn’t exist, it is just the absence of heat," > > then you should _really_ say "neither cold not heat exist. > > Temperature is just the state of excitation of the molecules." > We measure heat. We measure light. We don’t measure cold or darkness. > On what planet did you learn science?

A planet where I learned how measuring instruments work. How can you tell from a thermometer that you are measuring heat, and not cold? (You are really measuring temperature.) More to the point, the email fable does an injustice to both religion and to atheism. There is a genuine and serious question (and assuming your children are at least of normal intelligence, you must have dealt with this question): "If God is both good and omnipotent, why does he permit evil to exist?" That question deserves a serious answer, and there are several reasonable, interesting answers. The fable under discussion provides none of them, and just makes fun of the question. Even though I’m agnostic, I’ll provide two reasonable answers: Answer 1: God wants man to have the choice between good and evil, and there can’t be a real choice unless God allows evil to exist. Answer 2: We are just ants compared to God, and his reasons are beyond our comprehension. Logically speaking, both answers are pretty tight. I prefer the first one, but you really can’t argue much with either answer. Doug

Response:

On 09 Dec 2004 16:31:36 -0800, Doug Anderson – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text - wrote: > Tony Miller writes: >> On 09 Dec 2004 09:50:40 -0800, Doug Anderson >> wrote: >> > emma_a…@mac.com (Emma Anne) writes: >> >> Doug Anderson wrote: >> >> > michaelamackenzie05072…@yahoo.com writes: >> >> > (snip) >> >> > > The young man’s name — Albert Einstein >> >> > I assume you all realize that OT or not, this story is a fabrication. >> >> I checked to see if you had answered before I bothered to go to Snopes. >> >> >> > OK, now I’m going to get even more off-topic. >> > So I find urban legends really interesting. I think they are stories >> > that we tell ourselves because we find these stories comforting, or at >> > least that there is something about them that makes us feel good about >> > ourselves. >> > The Einstein urban legend that I’m most aware of is the on which says >> > that "Einstein flunked math." (Nothing could be further from the >> > truth.) I understand why we like that. It says that one of the >> > world’s most brilliant people still had trouble with math (or at least >> > had trouble with how it was taught in school). >> > This legend is a bit more mysterious to me. It pits some poor >> > anonymous ethics or philosphy professor against someone who is >> > generally considered to be one of history’s smarter individuals. >> > Maybe it appeals to our desire to laugh at foolish people, but to be >> > sure "Einstein’s" argument is pretty weak too, so this university >> > professor has to be very foolish to not see it coming and to not be >> > able to rebut it. >> So how DO you rebut it? I have always found the argument compelling. And >> having Einstein say it gives it a bit more secular weight than if… >> say… Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther, Oral Roberts or the Pope said >> it? > Well, firstly, Einstein _didn’t_ say it. the story is a > fabrication. So you can forget about whatever extra weight it might > have had if he did say it. > As far as rebutting it, there are two obvious problems: > 1) if you believe that people, god, or anyone can create evil, then > you _don’t_ believe that evil is simply the absence of good. > Conversely, if you really believe that evil is simply the absence > of good, then no one is capable of doing evil, merely of failing to > do good. And _that_ seems to fly in the face off our experiences.

Why is that? "*Merely* of failing to do good"? LOL!!! > 2) The physics is being told in a screwed up way. If you are going to > say that "cold doesn’t exist, it is just the absence of heat," > then you should _really_ say "neither cold not heat exist. > Temperature is just the state of excitation of the molecules."

We measure heat. We measure light. We don’t measure cold or darkness. On what planet did you learn science? -Tony PS: If you read the missive, instead of focusing on the problem with Einstein saying it, you’d have seen that "evil is the absence of God". — "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it’s time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tony Miller writes: > On 09 Dec 2004 09:50:40 -0800, Doug Anderson > wrote: > > emma_a…@mac.com (Emma Anne) writes: > >> Doug Anderson wrote: > >> > michaelamackenzie05072…@yahoo.com writes: > >> > (snip) > >> > > The young man’s name — Albert Einstein > >> > I assume you all realize that OT or not, this story is a fabrication. > >> I checked to see if you had answered before I bothered to go to Snopes. > >> > > OK, now I’m going to get even more off-topic. > > So I find urban legends really interesting. I think they are stories > > that we tell ourselves because we find these stories comforting, or at > > least that there is something about them that makes us feel good about > > ourselves. > > The Einstein urban legend that I’m most aware of is the on which says > > that "Einstein flunked math." (Nothing could be further from the > > truth.) I understand why we like that. It says that one of the > > world’s most brilliant people still had trouble with math (or at least > > had trouble with how it was taught in school). > > This legend is a bit more mysterious to me. It pits some poor > > anonymous ethics or philosphy professor against someone who is > > generally considered to be one of history’s smarter individuals. > > Maybe it appeals to our desire to laugh at foolish people, but to be > > sure "Einstein’s" argument is pretty weak too, so this university > > professor has to be very foolish to not see it coming and to not be > > able to rebut it. > So how DO you rebut it? I have always found the argument compelling. And > having Einstein say it gives it a bit more secular weight than if… > say… Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther, Oral Roberts or the Pope said > it?

Well, firstly, Einstein _didn’t_ say it. the story is a fabrication. So you can forget about whatever extra weight it might have had if he did say it. As far as rebutting it, there are two obvious problems: 1) if you believe that people, god, or anyone can create evil, then you _don’t_ believe that evil is simply the absence of good. Conversely, if you really believe that evil is simply the absence of good, then no one is capable of doing evil, merely of failing to do good. And _that_ seems to fly in the face off our experiences. 2) The physics is being told in a screwed up way. If you are going to say that "cold doesn’t exist, it is just the absence of heat," then you should _really_ say "neither cold not heat exist. Temperature is just the state of excitation of the molecules." Doug

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -urf wrote: > "Doug Anderson" wrote in message > news:v2u0qvnyxb.fsf@ethel.the.log… >> emma_a…@mac.com (Emma Anne) writes: >>> Doug Anderson wrote: >>>> michaelamackenzie05072…@yahoo.com writes: >>>> (snip) >>>>> The young man’s name — Albert Einstein >>>> I assume you all realize that OT or not, this story is a >>>> fabrication. >>> I checked to see if you had answered before I bothered to go to >>> Snopes. >> OK, now I’m going to get even more off-topic. >> So I find urban legends really interesting. I think they are stories >> that we tell ourselves because we find these stories comforting, or >> at least that there is something about them that makes us feel good >> about ourselves. >> The Einstein urban legend that I’m most aware of is the on which says >> that "Einstein flunked math." (Nothing could be further from the >> truth.) I understand why we like that. It says that one of the >> world’s most brilliant people still had trouble with math (or at >> least had trouble with how it was taught in school). >> This legend is a bit more mysterious to me. It pits some poor >> anonymous ethics or philosphy professor against someone who is >> generally considered to be one of history’s smarter individuals. >> Maybe it appeals to our desire to laugh at foolish people, but to be >> sure "Einstein’s" argument is pretty weak too, so this university >> professor has to be very foolish to not see it coming and to not be >> able to rebut it. > I presume that original conversation was in German. Perhaps something > was lost in the translation.

*snerk* It’s one of the kinds of pieces that *still* regularly pop up in my inbox with a "this is so cool, you must read it!" instruction and which makes me embarrassed for the author. > The subject of Einstein’s time theories is beautifully explored in a > book by an M.I.T. professor who’s name escapes me at the moment. The > title "Einstein’s Dreams" is well worth the time to read. I cried > when it was over.

Excellent, on to the list it goes. I’m reading Robert Grumbine’s recommendation at the moment – Petroski’s "To Engineer is Human" and enjoying it very much. Tai

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"Doug Anderson" wrote in message

news:v2u0qvnyxb.fsf@ethel.the.log… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> emma_a…@mac.com (Emma Anne) writes: >> Doug Anderson wrote: >> > michaelamackenzie05072…@yahoo.com writes: >> > (snip) >> > > The young man’s name — Albert Einstein >> > I assume you all realize that OT or not, this story is a fabrication. >> I checked to see if you had answered before I bothered to go to Snopes. >> > OK, now I’m going to get even more off-topic. > So I find urban legends really interesting. I think they are stories > that we tell ourselves because we find these stories comforting, or at > least that there is something about them that makes us feel good about > ourselves. > The Einstein urban legend that I’m most aware of is the on which says > that "Einstein flunked math." (Nothing could be further from the > truth.) I understand why we like that. It says that one of the > world’s most brilliant people still had trouble with math (or at least > had trouble with how it was taught in school). > This legend is a bit more mysterious to me. It pits some poor > anonymous ethics or philosphy professor against someone who is > generally considered to be one of history’s smarter individuals. > Maybe it appeals to our desire to laugh at foolish people, but to be > sure "Einstein’s" argument is pretty weak too, so this university > professor has to be very foolish to not see it coming and to not be > able to rebut it.

I presume that original conversation was in German. Perhaps something was lost in the translation. The subject of Einstein’s time theories is beautifully explored in a book by an M.I.T. professor who’s name escapes me at the moment. The title "Einstein’s Dreams" is well worth the time to read. I cried when it was over.

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Doug Anderson wrote: > So I find urban legends really interesting. I think they are stories > that we tell ourselves because we find these stories comforting, or at > least that there is something about them that makes us feel good about > ourselves.

(Snip) > This legend is a bit more mysterious to me.

Oh I think it fits perfectly into your theory. It is comforting that snotty intellectuals are wrong when they claim there is no God, and The Smartest Person in the World not only believed in God, he could decimate the snotty intellectual arguments that there isn’t.

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emma_a…@mac.com (Emma Anne) writes: > Doug Anderson wrote: > > michaelamackenzie05072…@yahoo.com writes: > > (snip) > > > The young man’s name — Albert Einstein > > I assume you all realize that OT or not, this story is a fabrication. > I checked to see if you had answered before I bothered to go to Snopes. >

OK, now I’m going to get even more off-topic. So I find urban legends really interesting. I think they are stories that we tell ourselves because we find these stories comforting, or at least that there is something about them that makes us feel good about ourselves. The Einstein urban legend that I’m most aware of is the on which says that "Einstein flunked math." (Nothing could be further from the truth.) I understand why we like that. It says that one of the world’s most brilliant people still had trouble with math (or at least had trouble with how it was taught in school). This legend is a bit more mysterious to me. It pits some poor anonymous ethics or philosphy professor against someone who is generally considered to be one of history’s smarter individuals. Maybe it appeals to our desire to laugh at foolish people, but to be sure "Einstein’s" argument is pretty weak too, so this university professor has to be very foolish to not see it coming and to not be able to rebut it.

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michaelamackenzie05072…@yahoo.com writes:

(snip) > The young man’s name — Albert Einstein

I assume you all realize that OT or not, this story is a fabrication.

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wrote in message

news:1102583923.145421.189890@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com… > This isn’t really OT, but some may think it is, so…

this screams "urban legend".

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Doug Anderson wrote: > michaelamackenzie05072…@yahoo.com writes: > (snip) > > The young man’s name — Albert Einstein > I assume you all realize that OT or not, this story is a fabrication.

I checked to see if you had answered before I bothered to go to Snopes.

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Is this the speach that earned him the dunce cap? Anyway, I liked it.

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michaelamackenzie05072…@yahoo.com wrote: > The young man’s name — Albert Einstein

http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp

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This isn’t really OT, but some may think it is, so… ~ ~ ~ The university professor challenged his students with this question. "Did God create everything that exists?" A student bravely replied, "Yes, he did!" "God created everything?" The professor asked. "Yes sir", the student replied. The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are, then God is evil". The student became quiet before such an answer. The professor, quite pleased with himself, boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth. Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you a question professor?" "Of course", replied the professor. The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?" "What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?" The students snickered at the young man’s question. The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-460