Christianity QA

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is a common misconception concerning great saints and sages. That is that they want (or should want) to change the world; to help people. I admit that I operated under this erroneous notion for a long time until I came to understand that it is not possible to help anyone, other then yourself.  The universe is functioning absolutely perfectly in any and every instance throughout all of existence. There is nothing out of place. There is no wrong. There is no one suffering needlessly or gratuitously. Nor is there any such thing as unfair. Everything is just as it should be. If someone is suffering this is the natural and inevitable consequence of having broken Universal law (Puma and is what a person needs, to be motivated, to become aware and make the needed adjustments in their affairs. Yogis cannot defy Universal law, nor would they want to. If they try, they too will be reminded of their error by some form of suffering. I am very surprised you did not react to this idea.

I can understand that if I am unkind in thought or deed it will come back to me because I have messed with the positive and progressive energy within myself and created a negative, disruptive energy. That makes sense to me. If I send out a bad feeling, traces of it linger within me and affect my judgement, heath, stress levels, etc.. etc..Yep I get that. A while ago I read an abundance book by Stuart Wilde who implied that the Jews manifested the Holocaust. This is on the same track as the stuff puma comes out with, saying George Bush’s foreign policy is the cause of Katrina. I just can’t rationalise that on *any* level. I can’t resist it I’m gonna have to start a new (provocative) thread on this one… . Paul BTW, thanks for your continued wisdom Jared. I may come across a bit opinionated and brash sometimes, but it’s simply because I want to get to the guts of the matter via the shortest route, which I know, isn’t always viable. 0 ^ (Namaste smiley v1.5)

Response:

I can understand that if I am unkind in thought or deed it will come back to me because I have messed with the positive and progressive energy within myself and created a negative, disruptive energy. That makes sense to me. If I send out a bad feeling, traces of it linger within me and affect my judgement, heath, stress levels, etc.. etc..Yep I get that. A while ago I read an abundance book by Stuart Wilde who implied that the Jews manifested the Holocaust. This is on the same track as the stuff puma comes out with, saying George Bush’s foreign policy is the cause of Katrina. I just can’t rationalise that on *any* level.

I agree, that is a bit of a stretch.  Hurricanes have been happening to the land now called USA for a very long time and no doubt they will continue to happen to that land mass long after the USA is relegated to ancient history. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can’t resist it I’m gonna have to start a new (provocative) thread on this one… . Paul BTW, thanks for your continued wisdom Jared. I may come across a bit opinionated and brash sometimes, but it’s simply because I want to get to the guts of the matter via the shortest route, which I know, isn’t always viable. 0 ^ (Namaste smiley v1.5)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And therein lies the problem for me.  I struggle with the concept that I must surrender all my beliefs and take a leap of faith in to Gods arms, when I have no proof of his existence. If God made me intelligent why does he want to act like a fool by abandoning my ideology to find him? You do not have to abandon anything.  If something is the truth, it is the truth on all levels, including logical.  When it comes to "proof" of "his" existence.  It is not that one’s conception of what "he" suddenly manifests and you say "aah there you are, why where you hiding?".  It is your conception that changes.  Instead of the classic case of where some people think God is just a more powerful human being it changes into larger view. Why the hell are you struggling at all?  Don’t think for a second that you have to knuckle under to another’s beliefs, especially if they are written down.  The practice of yoga is there to make one strong and flexible, to have an open mind, to not be manipulated by others’ desires and plans.  From your comments you already have much of that, do not give it away. http://www.prahlad.org/gallery/ommen_speech.htm Since having kids I have really questioned my beliefs and come to the conclusion that, rich or poor, I just want my kids to be happy. Not just full of fun, but profoundly, deeply content. That alone would fulfil me. I can’t see any way of attaining this with material possessions, so I am looking to Yoga for some clues. I have always thought religion was for mugs and still do, but Yoga is different, although the same questions apply. With Yoga or Religion one has to "let go". As an agnostic I find that a very hard task. This is not what is meant by letting go.  As you go through life you may have noticed how one has been mostly wrong and how things change. You will find many people (even in yoga) who get stuck looking at pretty baubles along the way.  They think they have found the truth, and the prettier the bauble the harder it is to "let go" and leave it behind. Don’t become a bird in a gilded cage. Wade

Thanks Wade, thanks to you and others, I am *slowly* starting to grasp this stuff.

Response:

them. What can I say? It is human (animal or lizard brain) nature to kill what we can’t understand or frightens us. What happened in New Orleans is a little different to A Yogi performing a "miracle". Because? Were you going to provide an example or rational or am I to take your assertion on "faith?" Of course they are massively different! One is an freak storm causing death and destruction. The other is a bloke in a loin cloth doing something groovy for the benefit of mankind. How much more different could they be?

I guess I didn’t do well at making my point here. Oh well, I’m sure we will visit again some time Besides, why assume that people would react with violence or with any malice at all? For a Yogi, it appears you have little faith in the spirit of the masses. The definition of a "yogi" is anyone who studies or practices yoga. That makes you a yogi. Welcome to the club The fact that someone is a yogi does not suppose any qualification as to experience, skill or disposition. Perhaps you were thinking of a "swam," "shadhu, saint, sage or any individual who has taken "vows of renunciation" or otherwise committed themselves to life of adoration and service to God. Regardless of which category you fit into, the statement still stands.

See above. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is a common misconception concerning great saints and sages. That is that they want (or should want) to change the world; to help people. I admit that I operated under this erroneous notion for a long time until I came to understand that it is not possible to help anyone, other then yourself.  The universe is functioning absolutely perfectly in any and every instance throughout all of existence. There is nothing out of place. There is no wrong. There is no one suffering needlessly or gratuitously. Nor is there any such thing as unfair. Everything is just as it should be. If someone is suffering this is the natural and inevitable consequence of having broken Universal law (Puma and is what a person needs, to be motivated, to become aware and make the needed adjustments in their affairs. Yogis cannot defy Universal law, nor would they want to. If they try, they too will be reminded of their error by some form of suffering.

I am very surprised you did not react to this idea. snip They tried to stone Jesus to death a half dozen times and finally he was crucified. I would call that set upon. Moses? Well duh, he was saving their lives, what reason (fear or otherwise) would they have to kill him? So you believe Jesus was persecuted for performing miracles rather than saying he was the son of God? Please! I don’t remember reading anything along the lines of "Kill him he healed that womans Aunt" in the Bible.

Yes I believe it was because he "healed" on the Sabbath. As for Moses, you seem to be contradicting yourself. Up until now you have implied that the masses would react adversely to "miracles". I didn’t know there were any caveats to that statement, there are none in 7:6. How did those people know that the sea wouldn’t swallow them up and moses was luring them to there deaths?

I can’t be held responsible for "implications". I am not in control of those in any way snip Also, I did not call you inept, I merely I stated I thought your opinion was wrong. Wait, there must be a difference here. IneptS wrong? IneptS wrong? IneptSwrong? Hmm.. Sorry can’t see it I said "I disagree", not "You are a buffoon". Quite a big difference

OK So while you kindly characterize omjaroo as being witty and wise (thank you BTW) when I quoted the bible you did not assume years of study and synthesis of written Truth in many traditions and ask for clarification. Rather it appears you assumed an assault on your believes and your intelligence as well as a hypocritical pronouncement by a bible thumping zealot. No no no!!! I did not accuse **YOU** of hypocrisy. I said that 7:6 is hypocritical! And why would I assume anything about you from a quote?!. It was a quote and I treated it as such..someone else’s words.

Oh, now I understand. Sorry my mistake. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m disappointed you didn’t respond to this. Done :O) (my bad, by this time I am teasing you) Mat 7:1 concerning judgment. In this case I thought it was you who (mis)judged me . Meanwhile I am having fun noticing that all these quotes are in the same chapter and just a few verses away for each other Now it is clear to me that you are sensitive to traditional western religious notions and so I will, in the future,  be more sympathetic about chiding you or trying to convey an idea to you with bible quotes. I am not sensitive to Religious notions at all! The Bible has some beuatiful stuff in it. What I do find objective is plagarism dressed up as wisdom. I could quote Wordsworth or Shelly all day, but it would offer no insight into *my* thoughts. So please in future use your own words they have more substance, humour and wisdom than Bible quotes ever will. Thanks for saying so and I’ll give you humor but where do you suppose some of my substance and wisdom come from? Youy imagination, your spirit, your experiences and least of all books. It is your interpretation of literature and life that is important to me, not your memory.

I suppose you are correct. However I think you underestimate how important books (the imagination, spirit and experience of others) have been in my growing up and maturing.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This brings us to what someone has already so fittingly pointed out the "siddhis" or "powers" are not the point of yoga. To display them would be most inappropriate for a number of reasons which I believe were covered in the original thread. But if you are still unclear, by all means reframe the question and ask. As you read, you will hear this discussed time and again. Which reminds me; all of the questions you are struggling with will be answered in the course of your reading and study. Hence the Mat 7:7-8 citation and an earlier admonishment to continue to read, study and practice for a year or two at which time you will be amazed at how many of your questions will be answered. My rebuttal is detailed above. And yes, I am still on my Yogic journey, I don’t just come here for a fight. ;O) Yes I believe you. Do you suppose I am here for a fight? When you focus your struggle inward towards yourself (the Self) then the arguments with persons, places and things outside of you will no longer hold any meaning. You are not fighting (discussing) with me you are fighting with yourself. I understand that. I do the same thing. We all do. God is not the problem, nor religion, nor suffering, nor is there any problem outside of us at all. It’s all an inside job, as they say. Think about it. If you were dead this moment, what would this discussion or anything outside of your real Self mean at all. Yes, exactly nothing. Remember you are the only Thing in the Universe. You are Everything in the Universe. You are the Universe. This is Yoga. This is why we practice yoga. So we can appreciate, understand and live with this knowledge (Truth). You just blew my socks off again! :O)

Er, eh, what’s that you say sonny? Can’t find yer socks? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now about my indifference Which I believe was probably more your impatience. True.  I can’t be sure you did not respond to that post. Insert (explanation, response, apology, etc) here Anyway, as I read it you believe I was "ducking" the answering of your questions by quoting the bible, rather than I was giving you my opinion by quoting scripture. Given what you have shared about yourself and your search, I can see and appreciate your thinking. I hope I have clarified my references to the bible and how they relate to the display of yogic "miracles". No. Sort of. My opinion is shifting all the time…

That’s the nature of opinions, I suppose. Truth on the other hand never shifts. It is what it is.   And finally (I think Did I mention there is no such thing as a "miracle". Every happenstance in existence has a cause which is intelligent. After all God is Intelligence and would never create anything that deifies the rules of how things work. That would be downright idiotic and very unGodlike Things sometimes appear to be miraculous when we can not see or understand the system underpinning them. But its there none the less. I made a great big jump here, did you notice? ?

I guess that means you didn’t. Oh well, just thought I would point that out because I do that sometimes. I will dismiss an entire idea or line of discussion because it isn’t even related to reality in the first place. Or I will point out that what’s being discussed is not in alignment with what is True (what really exists) and that we are speaking in or with symbols which have no objective existence. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did I cover it? Sure, we are using the word "miracle" loosely to describe a Yogi doing something inspiring in public view. Thanks for sharing *your* thoughts Jared, you are rarely less than provocative. You’re

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Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Howdy! re: "One should want proof before one believes any religion " Are you talking about proof or EVIDENCE? There’s a big difference! Well its desirable to have proof that a religion is true insofar as proof is available, and lacking such complete proof one would have to decide what to do with any evidence or information one had. If there was proof it would no longer be "religion" — it would be "fact."

As far as you can see, religion is only a matter of belief, not of fact. If faith and proof are not diametrically opposed they are, at the very least, mutually exclusive.

I don’t agree. You’d have to define very carefully what you mean by faith. I may say that I am of the "opinion" that what I know to be a fact is true, but only to accomodate another’s opinion, which might be irrelevant to me, and as a sign that I’m not interested in arguing about it with a fanatic or someone who doesn’t want to change his opinion. You’re talking about blind faith though. I’m not talking about blind faith, but I am talking about scientific proof.

There can be other sorts of proof than scientific ie laboratory proof. If you have one there is no need of the other! There’s a big need for the other if one’s blind faith is leading one in the wrong direction, as in the case of suicide bombers for instance. Are we talking about "the wrong direction" according to the light of the believer or according to the light of a third party, like you or me?

I’m talking about what is for the good of all concerned. Were the crusades "the wrong direction"? No intentional suicide there, just wanton slaughter and people going to a foreign land willing to die in order to promote their faith.

Well, they were based on ignorance, and they were not for their own good or the ones who were slaughtered by the crusaders. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Namaste Dave

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