Watching Out For Wicked Witches While Avoiding "Witch Wars"

Christianity QA » Christian Church » Watching Out For Wicked Witches While Avoiding "Witch Wars"

Christian Church

Question:

I am sorry Melissa, but you have to realize that you get back what you put into your ways. Have you not yet learned that? Even I, who am just in the beginnings of my learnings know that if you do a good thing it will be a blessing returned to you and likewise if you do a dark thing, that to will come back to you. I really do think that we should do all we can to help our neighbor, I don’t care if they are Christian, Pagen, or agnostic (sp?). To make a profit on the knowledge that was given to us my the God(s) is disrespect to said creater. "Selling God" or spirituality is exactly the same as the whole Jim and Tammy Baker thing. PLease…. Rethink what you have said. I understand what you are saying. In this world money is important but not at the expence of helping those in need.

At the same time, vows of poverty are not requirements for practitioners of *all* Pagan religions…or for Satanists, or for people who study Magick. There are students who can be just as much of a leech as there are teachers, people who always expect to get something for nothing as long as there is someone there willing to be the scapegoat. People should put value on the work that they do, whether it be religious or otherwise. Sometimes that value comes from asking some kind of recompense for their time, knowledge and skills, just as with any other kind of legitimate work; other times more value comes from donating those things voluntarily. It depends on the circumstances involved. It is one thing to state that *I* believe that asking for payment is wrong for me, but another thing to state that because it is wrong for me, then it is automatically wrong for everyone else, and that anyone who would do such a thing is a ‘bad whatever’ no matter what the circumstances involved. Some Pagans might very well wish to build a large temple to Isis and pay someone to be its guardian and caretaker, etc. Should the new temple caretaker, who spends a great deal of time keeping up the place, have to donate all that time and energy for free? After all, taking care of a temple is a *religious* duty. Who cares if that person has to be there for most of the day? Surely s/he can get a full-time night job outside the temple to make a living. No problem. And before someone suggests that everyone in the group volunteer to share that responsibility, remember that while such a suggestion is a good and valid one, that not everyone enjoys that type of work or has the skills to do it. The group may have decided that having one of their members become a full-time caretaker was the very best option for them. And that is just one example. And yes, obviously there are those who will abuse their power– charging people a lot of money for answers to simple questions and that sort of thing. Or giving out nothing for the payment that they take in (as RainOne’s situation seemed to imply). I just don’t see this issue as being a case of *always* or *never* for everyone and under all circumstances. Of course, we could be just talking about certain particular traditions of Wicca here, so then I’ll just have to wonder why the discussion has been posted to all of these other groups…. "We bring you beautiful. We teach you sin. We can give you a piece of the universe, or we will disappear never to be seen again. And all the fools sailed away…" — DIO —

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Just a few quick questions since I keep seeing this ‘payment of services’ thing pop up when I do check this thread… How is offering something in return wrong? If someone offers, you can always say ‘no’, right? How is asking for help, in ANY way and for any thing, wrong? – How is it unlike someone offering gas money when you drive them somewhere? (which people rarely do anymore) – How is it unlike saying, ‘Thank you for inviting us to dinner, I brought a bottle of wine’? (which is growing less frequent as well) – How is it different than someone saying with a smile, ‘Thank you for helping me get through the third grade’? – How is it different than sending out a card at a birthday or holiday for someone who helped you during the year? Or picking up a little something on you travels as a gift for someone who took the time and patience to explain things to you? – How is it different than people asking for donations at a pot-luck dinner? I keep seeing this thing about payment – is it wrong, or right? Payment can be more than money (which seems like there’s less and less these days, despite working more often) — it can be a smile, a thank you, a little note you’ve done, a hug, helping someone fix a flat tire, etc. Granted, if someone is putting a lot of money into something continually, then I think it is fair to ask for donations or assistance, and if none is given, then I don’t think they’re obligated to continue putting as much money into it (unless you derive personal satisfaction from it). And on the other hand, the other person needs to be honest about what the money is for (if it was for a group situation). The problem today in some societies and the newer generations is that a lot of people no longer practice common courtesy. I know that I’m just a broke college student, but when someone helps me out, I try to thank them via email, do a little candy package at a holiday, bring something back from my travels (nothing too expensive), or a quiet ‘thank you’ in person, or a hug. When I can, I’ll give a few dollars to help someone out who’s given me advice at some point. Yes, they are small, inexpensive things, but at least it shows my gratitude. And with the extent some people have gone for me, I can’t ever return the knowledge they’ve imparted any time soon. So I thank them however I can, and I have to be content that while I’d love to send flowers or something, I just can’t do that. I can’t afford to do anything major for Mother and Father’s Day — hell, I couldn’t even BEGIN to afford a gift equal in price to what my parents have spent on me in time, money, and support — but I’m working on a homemade card and I’m including examples of some of my recent, ‘A’ academic projects so that they can know that they did do okay with me. My theory is just use common courtesy and offer something appropriate. If you think you can’t afford a proper payment, do something small (or a series of small things). If necessary, make a card and go on about the wonderful things you’d do for them if you hadn’t ripped a whole in your pocket. But then, my mum sometimes calls me her poverty-stricken philanthropist (and at least she has the first part right . -+ Ariana +-

I think that the instances which you cite are all valid. That’s not really what we’re talking about though. There are those teachers who charge large amounts for their teaching. I just got an email recently from someone starting an online coven. This person is CHARGING $250.00 for the "course leading to initiation". This individual also conviently sells "altar kits" and such. That is what I don’t approve of. It is apparently being done in response to "requests" from others, but I still don’t approve. I’ve seen much larger amounts charged for such things. We have a shop where I live that gives all sorts of classes and charges a small amount for them. I’m not sure how I feel about that. The amount is almost nominal, but I do know people who couldn’t afford it. $15.00 a week sounds like very little, but not to many people. But there are other classe offered there for as little as $2.00 a week. I just don’t think you can put a price on knowledge or keep people out of the craft just because they can’t afford the price. Loki – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -p.s. Thank you many times over, Shez.

Response:

Remember, kiddies, we don’t believe in heaven—when is Lady Whoever gonna get her just reward?

In exchange for services to Her God and Goddess. Most of it will not be in tangible goods, but in the success of her students as they follow their paths and teach others. The fact is paid clergy would lead to better clergy. More training, more time, more devotion. Ygraine

The Western Ceremonial and some of the British Pagan groups insist that clergy be employed outside of the craft. The thinking is that they need mundane contacts and activities to keep the magical and religious one s in proper perspective. All the Elders I know have worked, or are working, they provide for themselves, deliberatly so and as part of our groups policy, Voluntary teaching or priesthood, seems to me, at least to be an excellent way to keep in touch with the real world, to experience what those who come to you for help experience, looking for jobs, bullying, paying bills, rents rates, educating children, divorce, new partners, meeting people in social situations, who do not know your a pagan teacher or a priest. facing reality.

I have always found that to be a sensible position, Shez. Most folk local to me who talk about paid clergy want to -be- the paid clerical leader for the group/city/region. I am always there for my Students, but they respect my privacy and my limited time, as I respect theirs.

Burn-out is a real problem if you don’t know when and how to say no. Service is required by the Lady and Lord, but not at the expense of the roof over your head, clothes on your children’s backs, or food on your table. If it has become so expensive, perhaps it is time to look at delegating some of the ‘responsibilities/expenses’? Part of the HPS/HP syndrome is the belief that no one else can do ‘it’ half so well or quickly or whatever as you. Part of the cure and teaching of both HPS/HP and student is to delegate and let you both see that another can indeed do ‘it’. Looking at having other pagans support you while you do not delegate avoids the lesson. Payment if you wish it, must be up front, and must be for services rendered, there can be no outs, no I have a headaches, not I am not feeling well, or I am tired, you are running a buisness, not a spiritual group, and your students would soon notice it was a buisness, and had little spirituallity other than worshipping, money.

Another reason why the Ordains insisted on not charging for services has to do with: what if someone comes to you asking you to do something you know is wrong, but you need the money? In the Kalevala, specifically mentioned is the working of magic of a baneful nature for money as a cause for illness, even by those with a reputation for healing.

Response:

Just a few quick questions since I keep seeing this ‘payment of services’ thing pop up when I do check this thread… How is offering something in return wrong? If someone offers, you can always say ‘no’, right? How is asking for help, in ANY way and for any thing, wrong? – How is it unlike someone offering gas money when you drive them somewhere? (which people rarely do anymore) – How is it unlike saying, ‘Thank you for inviting us to dinner, I brought a bottle of wine’? (which is growing less frequent as well) – How is it different than someone saying with a smile, ‘Thank you for helping me get through the third grade’? – How is it different than sending out a card at a birthday or holiday for someone who helped you during the year? Or picking up a little something on you travels as a gift for someone who took the time and patience to explain things to you? – How is it different than people asking for donations at a pot-luck dinner? I keep seeing this thing about payment – is it wrong, or right? Payment can be more than money (which seems like there’s less and less these days, despite working more often) — it can be a smile, a thank you, a little note you’ve done, a hug, helping someone fix a flat tire, etc. Granted, if someone is putting a lot of money into something continually, then I think it is fair to ask for donations or assistance, and if none is given, then I don’t think they’re obligated to continue putting as much money into it (unless you derive personal satisfaction from it). And on the other hand, the other person needs to be honest about what the money is for (if it was for a group situation). The problem today in some societies and the newer generations is that a lot of people no longer practice common courtesy. I know that I’m just a broke college student, but when someone helps me out, I try to thank them via email, do a little candy package at a holiday, bring something back from my travels (nothing too expensive), or a quiet ‘thank you’ in person, or a hug. When I can, I’ll give a few dollars to help someone out who’s given me advice at some point. Yes, they are small, inexpensive things, but at least it shows my gratitude. And with the extent some people have gone for me, I can’t ever return the knowledge they’ve imparted any time soon. So I thank them however I can, and I have to be content that while I’d love to send flowers or something, I just can’t do that. I can’t afford to do anything major for Mother and Father’s Day — hell, I couldn’t even BEGIN to afford a gift equal in price to what my parents have spent on me in time, money, and support — but I’m working on a homemade card and I’m including examples of some of my recent, ‘A’ academic projects so that they can know that they did do okay with me. My theory is just use common courtesy and offer something appropriate. If you think you can’t afford a proper payment, do something small (or a series of small things). If necessary, make a card and go on about the wonderful things you’d do for them if you hadn’t ripped a whole in your pocket. But then, my mum sometimes calls me her poverty-stricken philanthropist (and at least she has the first part right . -+ Ariana +- p.s. Thank you many times over, Shez.

Response:

We are ‘given’ our life. We are given our power. If we follow the old ways…and go out and collect our herbs – we are ‘given’ those too. We are given our insight and we earn our wisdom. I too feel it is wrong to ask for payment or dues.

Hey, would you come mow my lawn all summer for no pay? Cool! We’re given everything we have the power to do in life, but most of us enjoy 3 squares a day in return for our efforts. If you wish to live in abject poverty go for it. But don’t ask anyone else to go with you. Money may not buy happiness but it doesn’t buy poverty either. We are. To share our light freely continues the flux of gifts. I for one am content with my alter in the backyard – and seek no followers. Power is corruptive. Energy unified is powerful and I do believe that groups can be of great importance.

That should be your choice but realize that few other people feel like starving in return for what good they bring to the world. – Melissa If you actually read my post, are not a spammer just harvesting names for your trash junk mail, and if you’d like to reply by email, please remove the XXX out of my email address in the address listed before sending it to me. Thanks. Unconstitutional Government Hate Crime Of The Decade! The Colorado State Legislature Is Trying To Ban Our Presently Legal Marriage! Read all about it! : http://www.asupernet.com/~melissa/marriage.htm http://www.asupernet.com/~melissa/ http://www.asupernet.com/~melissa/wpdsgn.htm http://www.asupernet.com/~melissa/melissas.htm Personal opinions I express are not necessarily those of the organizations I may be doing volunteer work for. Abusive email may be posted. Please don’t send me email copies of your follow ups to my posts unless I request it.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are ‘given’ our life. We are given our power. If we follow the old ways…and go out and collect our herbs – we are ‘given’ those too. We are given our insight and we earn our wisdom. I too feel it is wrong to ask for payment or dues. Hey, would you come mow my lawn all summer for no pay? Cool! We’re given everything we have the power to do in life, but most of us enjoy 3 squares a day in return for our efforts. If you wish to live in abject poverty go for it. But don’t ask anyone else to go with you. Money may not buy happiness but it doesn’t buy poverty either. We are. To share our light freely continues the flux of gifts. I for one am content with my alter in the backyard – and seek no followers. Power is corruptive. Energy unified is powerful and I do believe that groups can be of great importance. That should be your choice but realize that few other people feel like starving in return for what good they bring to the world. – Melissa

Response:

This is really off topic for alt.satanism, could you all please trim your headers? Thanks. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : We are ‘given’ our life. We are given our power. If we follow the old : ways…and go out and collect our herbs – we are ‘given’ those too. We : are given our insight and we earn our wisdom. I too feel it is wrong to : ask for payment or dues. We are. To share our light freely continues the : flux of gifts. I for one am content with my alter in the backyard – and : seek no followers. Power is corruptive. Energy unified is powerful and I : do believe that groups can be of great importance. Well put, Crow Woman! I was given my religion by the Gods. I was given the world by the Goddess. Can I stand before the Goddess and tell her that I *charged* others money for that which I was freely given by the Gods? I think not. If you have been trained correctly and follow the Ethic yourself, you will not charge for religious practice. Now, if you want to teach a class on Tarot or Astrology, fine, you *should* charge to teach the skill. But to charge someone for the "privilege" of having you lead a circle? Absolutely not. To me, the only reason for "coven dues" might be if the coven decided together to sponsor something, such as open rituals where a rent needed to be paid or something like that. Money for the "privilege" of being in a coven? Are we back in the Fourth Grade with secret clubs? Ok, class, what do we do when we run across someone who wants to charge us for the "privilege" of attending their classes or circles that deal exclusively with our religious practice (and not just a few bucks for candles, incense, rent or photocopies)? "Thank you very much", and GO FIND ANOTHER GROUP! It *is* nice to give a donation to the officiating clergyperson when you have them do something like wiccaning a child or performing a marriage ceremony. I’ve gotten donations such as a beautiful bouquet of flowers, a case of wonderful homemade jams and jellies, candles, plants, and once even a $50 bill! Are these going to give me a living? Hardly. I’ve also gotten bottles of wine, inexpensive jewelry, plants, and books as thank you presents after a class series. Is this a living wage? Nope and I wouldn’t expect it. But they *are* nice little tokens that reminded me that these people cared that I was there doing the work. A plate of home made cookies from a wonderful older lady is a good salary IMHO. Wicca is *noted* for the fact that we do not have paid clergy! Even those who serve as full-time clergypeople do not ask pay for this! You are a Priestess or Priest because you are called, not to get rich or even make a living wage at it! If you can’t deal with the fact that you won’t make money as a Wiccan clergyperson, then get out! Sigh…. BB Marjorie HPs, Our Lady of the Sycamores N.B. For those of you who doubt the dedication of clergy in this matter – I just started two new series of Wicca 101 classes at a local shop. It’s 25-30 miles away from my house. I pay for my gas, I provide a coffee maker, et al., cookies, etc. No pay, and the shop does not charge for the classes. So, my Saturday and Monday nights are given over to others for the next six weeks. I get the blessings of the Lady and Lord for this work. Good salary to me. Marjorie your a treasure dear, and a great example to anyone who is pagan and teaching. Like you I beleive that teaching is a natural gift, and that to pay money for something that is given as a gift would be to make it commercial and crass.

- Melissa If you actually read my post, are not a spammer just harvesting names for your trash junk mail, and if you’d like to reply by email, please remove the XXX out of my email address in the address listed before sending it to me. Thanks. Unconstitutional Government Hate Crime Of The Decade! The Colorado State Legislature Is Trying To Ban Our Presently Legal Marriage! Read all about it! : http://www.asupernet.com/~melissa/marriage.htm http://www.asupernet.com/~melissa/ http://www.asupernet.com/~melissa/wpdsgn.htm http://www.asupernet.com/~melissa/melissas.htm Personal opinions I express are not necessarily those of the organizations I may be doing volunteer work for. Abusive email may be posted. Please don’t send me email copies of your follow ups to my posts unless I request it.

Response:

Also might want to check out Scorpio Herbs

Whenever I speak of Elders in the community, which should be upheld for their efforts, Scorpio Herbs shop owners are to whom I refer. I respect them with my being…just a clue. I have never been to the others, except one on your list…which I would avoid like the plague. I need to shut up now, but other Texas Pagans will know what I am talking about. RainOne

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I personally know one Wiccan High Priestess who charges her Inner Circle (coven) 22 dollars a month "coven dues." She also collects money for an imaginary "non-profit" organization she made up, for some land she made up. May it all fall back on her. RainOne I honestly don’t believe this! You begrudge a Priestess the very means it takes to be a Priestess! This is just another of the thousand reasons why I left Wicca-not that Priestesses were collecting money and services, but because some hippy-putz had decided that the High Priestesses were not supposed to charge for teaching. This trickled down to Witches/HPS’s living some sort of christian poverty aesthetic, antithetical to being Priestesses. To do the job right, a Priestess does the same amount of work as any salaried minister or priest, and receives none of the benefits. Remember, kiddies, we don’t believe in heaven—when is Lady Whoever gonna get her just reward? Being an active High Priestess I put out about 1000% over what I took in. Tools, rentals, permits, newsletters, research, classes, and often even meals and loans, came from my personal pocket. Do you really feel this is fair to the women, and men, who are essentially the focal point, the comfort zone, to any pagan/occult group? Are you naive enough to believe that this has some actual historical basis? I assure you the Priestesses in Rome, Greece, and Egypt did not have to scrape for coven dues and tracts of land! Even the village witches recieved chickens, harvest, and favors for their work. Is it random stupidity or the quasi-elitist need to be a minority that forces neo-Wiccan-Pagan-whatever people to not compensate their clergy-it is simply unheard of! The fact is paid clergy would lead to better clergy. More training, more time, more devotion. At this point I think any HPS who doesn’t demand compensation is entitled to her own self-martyrdom, and those who would begrudge her should stick by their little altar in the backyard. Ygraine

Really, what a way to trash a religion. Does anyone think even the Catholics with their "vows of poverty" are poor? Not! THey’re the biggest real estate conglomerate in the world. Where do people come up with things like this? That was what turned me off to Wicca several years ago too. There used to be an occult book store right across the street from a catholic church near here in Arvada Colorado, and it really freaked the glx’s out when their kids would go in there after church. They tried & tried and finally managed to drive the place out of business. But i started to take a basic class in Wicca there and the High Pristess who taught it was teaching some things that didn’t make any sense to me. Like that people weren’t supposed to use their magickal powers for personal gain. Why not?! I know electronics, which is a magical power to most people and have used it for making a living for years. How absurd! Then when I asked why about a few other things, instead of explaining them she told me I should just accept them on faith. I pointed out that if I wanted to do that, I could go across the street to the cathaholic church and be lots more popular too, then I left. – Melissa If you actually read my post, are not a spammer just harvesting names for your trash junk mail, and if you’d like to reply by email, please remove the XXX out of my email address in the address listed before sending it to me. Thanks. Unconstitutional Government Hate Crime Of The Decade! The Colorado State Legislature Is Trying To Ban Our Presently Legal Marriage! Read all about it! : http://www.asupernet.com/~melissa/marriage.htm http://www.asupernet.com/~melissa/ http://www.asupernet.com/~melissa/wpdsgn.htm http://www.asupernet.com/~melissa/melissas.htm Personal opinions I express are not necessarily those of the organizations I may be doing volunteer work for. Abusive email may be posted. Please don’t send me email copies of your follow ups to my posts unless I request it.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : We are ‘given’ our life. We are given our power. If we follow the old : ways…and go out and collect our herbs – we are ‘given’ those too. We : are given our insight and we earn our wisdom. I too feel it is wrong to : ask for payment or dues. We are. To share our light freely continues the : flux of gifts. I for one am content with my alter in the backyard – and : seek no followers. Power is corruptive. Energy unified is powerful and I : do believe that groups can be of great importance. Well put, Crow Woman! I was given my religion by the Gods. I was given the world by the Goddess. Can I stand before the Goddess and tell her that I *charged* others money for that which I was freely given by the Gods? I think not. If you have been trained correctly and follow the Ethic yourself, you will not charge for religious practice. Now, if you want to teach a class on Tarot or Astrology, fine, you *should* charge to teach the skill. But to charge someone for the "privilege" of having you lead a circle? Absolutely not. To me, the only reason for "coven dues" might be if the coven decided together to sponsor something, such as open rituals where a rent needed to be paid or something like that. Money for the "privilege" of being in a coven? Are we back in the Fourth Grade with secret clubs? Ok, class, what do we do when we run across someone who wants to charge us for the "privilege" of attending their classes or circles that deal exclusively with our religious practice (and not just a few bucks for candles, incense, rent or photocopies)? "Thank you very much", and GO FIND ANOTHER GROUP! It *is* nice to give a donation to the officiating clergyperson when you have them do something like wiccaning a child or performing a marriage ceremony. I’ve gotten donations such as a beautiful bouquet of flowers, a case of wonderful homemade jams and jellies, candles, plants, and once even a $50 bill! Are these going to give me a living? Hardly. I’ve also gotten bottles of wine, inexpensive jewelry, plants, and books as thank you presents after a class series. Is this a living wage? Nope and I wouldn’t expect it. But they *are* nice little tokens that reminded me that these people cared that I was there doing the work. A plate of home made cookies from a wonderful older lady is a good salary IMHO. Wicca is *noted* for the fact that we do not have paid clergy! Even those who serve as full-time clergypeople do not ask pay for this! You are a Priestess or Priest because you are called, not to get rich or even make a living wage at it! If you can’t deal with the fact that you won’t make money as a Wiccan clergyperson, then get out! Sigh…. BB Marjorie HPs, Our Lady of the Sycamores N.B. For those of you who doubt the dedication of clergy in this matter – I just started two new series of Wicca 101 classes at a local shop. It’s 25-30 miles away from my house. I pay for my gas, I provide a coffee maker, et al., cookies, etc. No pay, and the shop does not charge for the classes. So, my Saturday and Monday nights are given over to others for the next six weeks. I get the blessings of the Lady and Lord for this work. Good salary to me.

Marjorie your a treasure dear, and a great example to anyone who is pagan and teaching. Like you I beleive that teaching is a natural gift, and that to pay money for something that is given as a gift would be to make it commercial and crass. — The ‘Old Craft’ lady http://www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/

Response:

(CheshireHawk) writes: In Texas, I doubt I will. In New York, I know I would. RainOne Oh contraire, my "teacher" is a solitary in Houston. He is also a photo-journalist, very intelligent, good conversationalist. (email address in header field altered to deter spam)

Does he know anyone who is "teaching" in the Dallas region of Texas? I am serious. I have a cyber Priestess, but I am in need of a person or people who I can see, touch (not what you think) and just be around and do ritual with. Preferably a person of the woman persuasion! I am a woman. RainOne

Response:

What does it take to be a priestess? Loving, caring, and knowledge? I am a 3rd Degree High Priest in both Alexandrian and later in the Farrar style of witchcraft. Jannet and Stewart Farrar write books but DO NOT CHARGE. I was in Stewarts company when some star struck young person said how wonderfull they were and how she had always wanted to meet them. His words? "Piss off, were ordinary people, I would get more driving a bus and Janet more going back to journalism we still have morgages, bills to pay etc". In fact the ethic of priests being payed is a Christian one. Read the Bile Acts where Paul says "the workman is worthy of his hire". To do the job right, a Priestess does the same amount of work as any salaried minister or priest, and receives none of the benefits.

True, we don`t get free housing, or cars, but we know what we are in it for. My partner and I last year initiated possibly one of the more media attractive witches in this country. A man who was a Church of Englan Minister untill 6 years ago. He and his wife who is totally disable now run a great coven. They deal with more pratical problems than we do. Their coven pay not one penny and he gets he tells me more job satisfaction than he ever did as a minister. Remember, kiddies, we don’t believe in heaven—when is Lady Whoever gonna get her just reward? Being an active High Priestess I put out about 1000% over what I took in. Tools, rentals, permits, newsletters, research, classes, and often even meals and loans, came from my personal pocket.

Lets look at what you have said! TOOLS? Who taught you that tools were needed. Their nice things to have YES, but if you can`t do it with your finger then you can`t do it with anything. Don`t you teach that? WHAT WERE YOU RENTING? of course if you were renting rooms in any property you owned yes you are entitled to it or even renting your car, but what else? PERMITS: To do what? NEWSLETTERS: Now here you do have a point which I grant depending on how big the newsletters were. I have been doing a 28 page mag for 6 years and have now given up because we cannot subsidise it any more. However even with my partner working part time and myself disabled we can afford to give away a two sheet document monthly or if we needed it weekly. RESEARCH: Ah I see you have to research yourself before you can teach it to students. Wouldnt it be easier to admit your lack of knowledge and conduct any research with them as opposed to letting them think you know it all? It would also be more honnest. Classes: I have found that classes are something that one shares not runs. There is a lady in this country who has your ideas, however even she gained some of my respect when she said "isn`t it supprising how much you can learn from newcommers. MEALS:This supprises me. Every coven right from the time I first started 20 years ago, that I have ever been in has had the ethic where each member brought alsong something to add to the feast at any meeting we had. In fact I can`t get my head around that one at all. LOANS: Now hang on. A few pounds or dollars for cab fair if one runs very late and affers of floor space are not taken up is ok, PROVIDING that the person concerned gives it back and didn`t have the money in the first place. But is not our religion about personal responsibility? If someone has real trouble then we help if we can or club together but loans do not in fact incourage personal responsibility. Do you really feel this is fair to the women, and men, who are essentially the focal point, the comfort zone, to any pagan/occult group? Are you naive enough to believe that this has some actual historical basis? I assure you the Priestesses in Rome, Greece, and Egypt did not have to scrape for coven dues and tracts of land! Even the village witches recieved chickens, harvest, and favors for their work. Is it random stupidity or the quasi-elitist need to be a minority that forces neo-Wiccan-Pagan-whatever people to not compensate their clergy-it is simply unheard of!

Since when are we living in this period? The fact is paid clergy would lead to better clergy. More training, more time, more devotion. At this point I think any HPS who doesn’t demand compensation is entitled to her own self-martyrdom, and those who would begrudge her should stick by their little altar in the backyard.

There was a movement here in the UK to start such a "Church" about 10 years ago. We proved then that those who wished to start it did not have the interestes of the craft at heart at all, merely their own pockets and ego. They wanted to tell others how to run their groups and covens, they wanted to be "official" representatives of the craft. At a large gathering of over 400 people only 25 voted for their ideas and I was at the forefront of the oppersition just as I will be again. Also we have more recently a lady who claimed to be "Queen of the Witches", and to speak for the Witches of England. Since the media has been flooded with letters saying that she does not speak for the majority, they have droped her like a brick thankfully. Witchcraft, in whatever form does not need this kind of person. You said that people had even got the ocasional chicken as payment but it seems your research has not covered the history of witchcraft very well. This may be true in some cases but Witchcraft originated in England and the last Witch to be hung, in Lancaster where I live, was actually a seemstress and you seem to forget that "pesant" was in fact also a job, in those days it was a land worker. Perhaps you should research a little deeper. Finally I wonder if you actually keep others of your group from net access theirby not giving them chance to disagree with you? Those who never made a mistake never made anything. Norman Clinton

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I honestly don’t believe this! You begrudge a Priestess the very means it takes to be a Priestess! This is just another of the thousand reasons why I left Wicca-not that Priestesses were collecting money and services, but because some hippy-putz had decided that the High Priestesses were not supposed to charge for teaching. This trickled down to Witches/HPS’s living some sort of christian poverty aesthetic, antithetical to being Priestesses. To do the job right, a Priestess does the same amount of work as any salaried minister or priest, and receives none of the benefits. Remember, kiddies, we don’t believe in heaven—when is Lady Whoever gonna get her just reward? Being an active High Priestess I put out about 1000% over what I took in. Tools, rentals, permits, newsletters, research, classes, and often even meals and loans, came from my personal pocket. Do you really feel this is fair to the women, and men, who are essentially the focal point, the comfort zone, to any pagan/occult group? Are you naive enough to believe that this has some actual historical basis? I assure you the Priestesses in Rome, Greece, and Egypt did not have to scrape for coven dues and tracts of land! Even the village witches recieved chickens, harvest, and favors for their work. Is it random stupidity or the quasi-elitist need to be a minority that forces neo-Wiccan-Pagan-whatever people to not compensate their clergy-it is simply unheard of! The fact is paid clergy would lead to better clergy. More training, more time, more devotion. At this point I think any HPS who doesn’t demand compensation is entitled to her own self-martyrdom, and those who would begrudge her should stick by their little altar in the backyard. Ygraine

As a pagan Elder , we dont go in for Hp.s the teaching done in our groups, which are much older than wicca, is done on a voluntury basis, there are often several people in a group who make good teachers, and who would benefit from the learning and enjoy what such teaching brings, often a 5 to 6 yrs Pagan can teach basics, , Which is one of the most time consuming parts of the groups. Both the new teacher and the newbie find this a happy choice, the New teacher has to rethink to teach and learns much more, and they are near enough to being new themselves to be at ease with the problems a beginner has. either or both can come to an Elder if they need, or their are difficulties, and an Elder would keep a constant low level check on them. All the Elders I know have worked, or are working, they provide for themselves, deliberatly so and as part of our groups policy, To have a culture that supports priesthood, is not healthy, you can see that in the Christian church, people spend more and more of their hard earned money on supporting, priests, churches, collections, charitys, often without wanting to, but forced into it by social convention. One of the few Christian Priests I respected, worked for his wages by driving a bus, his parishoners loved him, and respected him. And charity should be a personal thing that you choose to invest your money in, or your time on. Do pagans realy want an organized church with paid clergy, because to me, it would be a cushy life, unless your are spiritually seeing to the needs of several thousands of people, you would not be earning that money, General things, like incence candles ect can be paid for or brought in on a rota basis, though often Elders provide, where students have little money. Voluntary teaching or priesthood, seems to me, at least to be an excellent way to keep in touch with the real world, to experience what those who come to you for help experience, looking for jobs, bullying, paying bills, rents rates, educating children, divorce, new partners, meeting people in social situations, who do not know your a pagan teacher or a priest. facing reality. We need to be 100% involved in the day to day variety of this world, not on some cloud nine, debating spirituality with our peers, that has proved to be one of the greatest problems in the Christian church, do we realy want that in a pagan community. You seem to feel that being unpaid is a lessoning of your worth, to me being payed for what comes to me naturally is a lessoning of my worth, I dont need money to make me feel worthwhile, and I have students who came to me from teachers who did charge, not because the teacher charged, but because they were not getting the knowledge, or the personal involvment that they do in the group I teach in. When teaching or being a priest becomes a buisness it loses its worth. perhaps you did not feel you earned enough to pay for your services, or perhaps your students found their money paid for little in the way of help or spirituality. if you want to get people to pay for what you teach, fine, but set yourself up as a buisness, Payment if you wish it, must be up front, and must be for services rendered, there can be no outs, no I have a headaches, not I am not feeling well, or I am tired, you are running a buisness, not a spiritual group, and your students would soon notice it was a buisness, and had little spirituallity other than worshipping, money. buddist monks beg for their food, as part of their spirituality, and dontations to buddism are just that donations, yet their priests are among the most respected in the world. Payments do not go to individual teachers but into a larger pot that pays for training and establishing temples, and bringing in and educating new buddists. I hope that pagan priests and teachers eventually have that same respect for their skills, and that donations that do come in are committed to raising new areas, perhaps buying land so its not built on, planting trees, replacing poisioned earth, revitalising their own communitys, as a whole and not just the pagan community. Money and spirituality tend to get commercialised the Rev Sun moon, comes to mind and the T.V. evangilists. If I told my own group that if they didnt pay I would not teach them, they would throw me a going away party. and they would be right. Ethics and strong personalitys are part of their training to. I am not here to make money from my students, just to pass on what was given to me, freely, and with love and trust ,With the knowledge that my own ethics would lead me to pass on what I had learned and had been given by those wise and not at all rich women. They taught me, supported me, demanded that I give my best, and helped me to use all the talents that I was born with, when they sent me on my way in the world, it was with love and affection, and I feel still that those women gave me far more than I could ever give back. Expenses can be shared by the whole group, that is legitimate, but for me my time is given freely and without thought of cost, and that douse not make me a fool or a massochist, it gives me the freedom to pick and choose the students I take knowing I am the most suitable teacher for them at this moment in time, that will change as they need to learn other things. it gives me a freedom to explore my own spirituality, and to learn from other ways. I am always there for my Students, but they respect my privacy and my limited time, as I respect theirs. I have always worked on the assumption that Respect has to earned, it can not be demanded, or paid for. — The ‘Old Craft’ lady http://www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/

Response:

Check out the bookstore Flight of the Phoenix in the Dallas/Ft Worth area. In addition to having a fantastic inventory, they also may be able to give you a referral. Also might want to check out Scorpio Herbs and Enchanted Forest. Metaphysical book and supply stores are great for making contacts. Check their bulletin boards. It can be a slow process weeding through to find what suits you, but the Dallas/Ft Worth metroplex is absolutely ‘Pagan Central’. You are very fortunate to live in an area that is so rich in Pagan contacts!

Response:

I honestly don’t believe this! You begrudge a Priestess the very means it takes to be a Priestess! This is just another of the thousand reasons why I left Wicca-not that Priestesses were collecting money and services, but because some hippy-putz had decided that the High Priestesses were not supposed to charge for teaching. This trickled down to Witches/HPS’s living some sort of christian poverty aesthetic, antithetical to being Priestesses. To do the job right, a Priestess does the same amount of work as any salaried minister or priest, and receives none of the benefits. Remember, kiddies, we don’t believe in heaven—when is Lady Whoever gonna get her just reward? Being an active High Priestess I put out about 1000% over what I took in. Tools, rentals, permits, newsletters, research, classes, and often even meals and loans, came from my personal pocket. Do you really feel this is fair to the women, and men, who are essentially the focal point, the comfort zone, to any pagan/occult group? Are you naive enough to believe that this has some actual historical basis? I assure you the Priestesses in Rome, Greece, and Egypt did not have to scrape for coven dues and tracts of land! Even the village witches recieved chickens, harvest, and favors for their work. Is it random stupidity or the quasi-elitist need to be a minority that forces neo-Wiccan-Pagan-whatever people to not compensate their clergy-it is simply unheard of! The fact is paid clergy would lead to better clergy. More training, more time, more devotion. At this point I think any HPS who doesn’t demand compensation is entitled to her own self-martyrdom, and those who would begrudge her should stick by their little altar in the backyard. Ygraine

Response:

After reading Madison’s comments on "witch wars" and how to avoid them, I felt that I would offer some commentary of my own. Any thoughts, flames, etc. will of course be welcomed. The problem seems to be determining what are valid complaints about a Pagan/Pagan leader/group of Pagans and what are merely petty personal conflicts. To that end, I thought I would throw out a few thoughts and ideas on "warning signals" which suggest genuine problems and "warning signals" which suggest we’re dealing with Yet Another Witch War… (shortened to "YAWW") * * * * * 1) How does the group in question deal with its former members? Do they seem to have long lists of grievances regarding everyone who has left them? Do they revel in presenting embarrassing personal information about their former members, or do they respect the privacy of those who have gone their separate ways. Do they engage in harassment of former members or critics? (i.e. telephoned "Death Threats," anonymous letters to employers or family members, etc). Do they seem to have an inordinately long list of "enemies" who "wish to harm them?" 2) Pagans tend to be sexual people; some Pagans enjoy practices which others may consider "kinky" or "spooky." Does the leader/group in question pressure people to engage in sexual behavior? (i.e. is there pressure to "get skyclad" or "engage in the Great Rite?") Are boundaries respected amongst group members, and does "No" always mean "No," not "You’re just showing Christian inhibitions…" 3) Is money exchanged for services rendered? If so, how much? Having your High Priestess take up a collection to pay for incense and candles is one thing; having her charge several hundred dollars for "healing spells" is quite another. 4) How much power is attributed to leaders within the group? (I.e. is the leader looked upon as "first among equals" or as some kind of Messianic figure?) How much authority does the leader claim over the "non-circle" activities of members? (i.e. are members forbidden to talk to "banished" or "expelled" members of the group, etc.). 5) If accusations of ill behavior are flying about; a) How relevant are they to the issue at hand? Saying "X raped a 13 year old girl while he was staying at her mother’s house," and providing evidence that X was indeed guilty of this is one thing. On the other hand, saying "X is a Satanist (Christian/Republican/etc.)" is probably irrelevant and suggests we’re dealing with YAWW. b) How much evidence is being provided? Saying, "I heard that X did this in front of my friend’s cousin" isn’t quite as convincing as "X did this to me and Y,Z, and AA all witnessed it." c) Are contradictory accusations being presented? (I.e. is the group in question saying "X asked me to kill a small child" on one day and on the next saying "I never met X in my entire life?") If so, it’s a good bet that we’re dealing with YAWW… * * * * * I’m sure that other people will come up with other ideas/comments. For now, I thought this might serve as a good springboard for further discussion. Peace Kevin Filan

Response:

The following note posted is brilliant! I loved it and believe each and every detail is intelligent, well put, and most of all…true to the tee! I bow out of the Witch Wars around here, which seem to be printed in each and every local Pagan publication. The same names always come up in the "stay away from" department. Those same people are always right in the middle of the wars, but will then accuse others of "starting the flames"…poor me, pour me another drink! Unfortunately, when CNN has a Pagan story to report, it is that same ilk of Pagans who are interviewed for the nation. The last interview I saw on CNN was with a local (ehem) High Priestess of the Isian Tradition who, looked like a haggard, wet haired, drunk. I am so turned off by this behavior that I have chosen to be solitary, and personally find the magic and ritual I do alone to be quite powerful and very much heard. Maybe I am an elitist, but who would you rather have interviewed to represent the Pagan community, a haggard drunk, or someone who presents themself with some decorum? I suppose there will be those who think because the barbaric nature of the Pagan during the inquisition is desirable to emulate, and who will wear chain mail in public in the 1990s, will also want to be represented by the same. Oh well. I remain solitary till I find like minded people. In Texas, I doubt I will. In New York, I know I would. RainOne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After reading Madison’s comments on "witch wars" and how to avoid them, I felt that I would offer some commentary of my own. Any thoughts, flames, etc. will of course be welcomed. The problem seems to be determining what are valid complaints about a Pagan/Pagan leader/group of Pagans and what are merely petty personal conflicts. To that end, I thought I would throw out a few thoughts and ideas on "warning signals" which suggest genuine problems and "warning signals" which suggest we’re dealing with Yet Another Witch War… (shortened to "YAWW") * * * * * 1) How does the group in question deal with its former members? Do they seem to have long lists of grievances regarding everyone who has left them? Do they revel in presenting embarrassing personal information about their former members, or do they respect the privacy of those who have gone their separate ways. Do they engage in harassment of former members or critics? (i.e. telephoned "Death Threats," anonymous letters to employers or family members, etc). Do they seem to have an inordinately long list of "enemies" who "wish to harm them?" 2) Pagans tend to be sexual people; some Pagans enjoy practices which others may consider "kinky" or "spooky." Does the leader/group in question pressure people to engage in sexual behavior? (i.e. is there pressure to "get skyclad" or "engage in the Great Rite?") Are boundaries respected amongst group members, and does "No" always mean "No," not "You’re just showing Christian inhibitions…" 3) Is money exchanged for services rendered? If so, how much? Having your High Priestess take up a collection to pay for incense and candles is one thing; having her charge several hundred dollars for "healing spells" is quite another. 4) How much power is attributed to leaders within the group? (I.e. is the leader looked upon as "first among equals" or as some kind of Messianic figure?) How much authority does the leader claim over the "non-circle" activities of members? (i.e. are members forbidden to talk to "banished" or "expelled" members of the group, etc.). 5) If accusations of ill behavior are flying about; a) How relevant are they to the issue at hand? Saying "X raped a 13 year old girl while he was staying at her mother’s house," and providing evidence that X was indeed guilty of this is one thing. On the other hand, saying "X is a Satanist (Christian/Republican/etc.)" is probably irrelevant and suggests we’re dealing with YAWW. b) How much evidence is being provided? Saying, "I heard that X did this in front of my friend’s cousin" isn’t quite as convincing as "X did this to me and Y,Z, and AA all witnessed it." c) Are contradictory accusations being presented? (I.e. is the group in question saying "X asked me to kill a small child" on one day and on the next saying "I never met X in my entire life?") If so, it’s a good bet that we’re dealing with YAWW… * * * * * I’m sure that other people will come up with other ideas/comments. For now, I thought this might serve as a good springboard for further discussion. Peace Kevin Filan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

this stuff is completely inappropriate to alt.magick. note followup. josh ___ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — http://www.goodnet.com/~felixxx/Magifaq.html 3) Is money exchanged for services rendered? If so, how much? Having your High Priestess take up a collection to pay for incense and candles is one thing; having her charge several hundred dollars for "healing spells" is quite another. We make lists of what we need and divide the cost up. Then people bring the materials they owe to the next meeting. I don’t believe I’ve ever seen a collection plate. This includes charity work.

Response:

– http://www.goodnet.com/~felixxx/Magifaq.html 3) Is money exchanged for services rendered? If so, how much? Having

your High Priestess take up a collection to pay for incense and candles is one thing; having her charge several hundred dollars for "healing spells" is quite another. We make lists of what we need and divide the cost up. Then people bring the materials they owe to the next meeting. I don’t believe I’ve ever seen a collection plate. This includes charity work.

Response:

We make lists of what we need and divide the cost up. Then people bring the materials they owe to the next meeting. I don’t believe I’ve ever seen a collection plate. This includes charity work.

Response:

IMHO, your first sentence is a contradiction in terms, i.e., if she’s charging, she’s not a Wiccan High Priestess. Whether she’s any other sort of priestess is I suppose up to her coven, but I’ll bet she’s only "high" when she’s been toking up the coven dues. — Jeffrey Quick http://www.en.com/users/jaquick

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I personally know one Wiccan High Priestess who charges her Inner Circle (coven) 22 dollars a month "coven dues." She also collects money for an imaginary "non-profit" organization she made up, for some land she made up. May it all fall back on her. IMHO, your first sentence is a contradiction in terms, i.e., if she’s charging, she’s not a Wiccan High Priestess. Whether she’s any other sort of priestess is I suppose up to her coven, but I’ll bet she’s only "high" when she’s been toking up the coven dues. — Jeffrey Quick http://www.en.com/users/jaquick

Well of course Jeffrey! She is a HPS in her own mind, and in the mind of the others who continue to get ripped off by her. She says she is ordained, trained, strained, and pained, but I think she is full of shit! That was my whole point darlin’. RainOne

Response:

LOL! Sounds like a Tele Evangelist! "God says you need to give me 8 million dollars or he’s taking me Home"… er.. bye bye. She needs to think bigger, is all <G. RainOne

(email address in header field altered to deter spam)

Response:

In Texas, I doubt I will. In New York, I know I would. RainOne

Oh contraire, my "teacher" is a solitary in Houston. He is also a photo-journalist, very intelligent, good conversationalist. (email address in header field altered to deter spam)

Response:

I personally know one Wiccan High Priestess who charges her Inner Circle (coven) 22 dollars a month "coven dues." She also collects money for an imaginary "non-profit" organization she made up, for some land she made up. May it all fall back on her. IMHO, your first sentence is a contradiction in terms, i.e., if she’s charging, she’s not a Wiccan High Priestess. Whether she’s any other sort

f priestess is I suppose up to her coven, but I’ll bet she’s only "high" when she’s been toking up the coven dues. — Jeffrey Quick http://www.en.com/users/jaquick

Jeffery, I know of the woman that she is speaking and she is (unfortuneately) a High priestess in TWO different Traditions and has been ripping off the community here in the Metroplex for years. ALdric

Response:

Address: http://christianityqa.com/christian-church/watching-out-for-wicked-witches-while-avoiding-witch-wars-1819644.html

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