Christianity QA » Christian Church » THE OLD COVENANT IS TRANSFORMED INTO THE NEW
Question:
and the "grafted in" bit refers to outright gentiles. Not true! In Romans 11:17-24 discusses this grafting which appears in the promise to Abraham. Verse 25 gives the identity of who is being grafted in. The phrase "fullness of the Gentiles" in Hebrew is "melo goyim". We find the identical phrase in Gen. 48:19. The phrase "multitude of nations" in the Hebrew is "melo goyim" or "fulness of the Gentiles". It was a prophesy about Ephraim, which would be the chief tribe of the Northern Kingdom.
Romans wasn’t written in Hebrew. Matthew 10:4-5 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, 10:6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. the Apostles were told to go after the lost House of Israel. Peter and then Paul went to regular gentiles, the greeks. and basically you don’t see much written by the apostles. they went off looking for Israel. Paul didn’t go after Israel, he went on after the greeks. and you can’t call House of Israel "wild olive" and Israel at the same time. and seeing that "multitude of nations" refers to decendants of Abraham then Israel is just another nation-goyim. and by that I mean the jews also are just another "goyim". point is that actual gentiles who were not "lost Israel" were grafted in. the beginning of acts gives a long list of nations whose gentile people were recieving the mesasage and the holy spirit. Israel didn’t become greeks. that "lost Israel" were now numbered among the gentiles does not make the greeks, who were being grafted in, Israel.
Response:
Romans wasn’t written in Hebrew.
Well we don’t know for sure, do we. Nonetheless, I was giving you the source for Pauls terminology; which, incidently is in the Hebrew text. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Matthew 10:4-5 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, 10:6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. the Apostles were told to go after the lost House of Israel. Peter and then Paul went to regular gentiles, the greeks. and basically you don’t see much written by the apostles. they went off looking for Israel. Paul didn’t go after Israel, he went on after the greeks. and you can’t call House of Israel "wild olive" and Israel at the same time. and seeing that "multitude of nations" refers to decendants of Abraham then Israel is just another nation-goyim. and by that I mean the jews also are just another "goyim". point is that actual gentiles who were not "lost Israel" were grafted in. the beginning of acts gives a long list of nations whose gentile people were recieving the mesasage and the holy spirit. Israel didn’t become greeks.
Be very careful with the terminology. Even in the Greek text there are several words which the King James translators translated as Greek. In many places the text is actually referring to Hellenized Jews. that "lost Israel" were now numbered among the gentiles does not make the greeks, who were being grafted in, Israel.
– Gregory Richardson Christian Renewal Ministries International & Fellowship of Messiah Exploring the Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith
Response:
Israel didn’t become greeks. Be very careful with the terminology. Even in the Greek text there are several words which the King James translators translated as Greek. In many places the text is actually referring to Hellenized Jews.
does it perturb you that greeks, actual greeks, should become "christian"? are you trying to claim that only Israel has become "christian"? where all gentile "christians" are actually lost Israel? is the ethiopian eunuch from Israel? if you are merely claiming that hellenized jews are "lost Israel" … no, you cannot mean this and claim that these are the same people who disappeared in 724 bc. carried off by the assyrians. so, apparently, you must agree that somewhere along the line gentile greeks that are in no way "lost Israel" became "christians". are you not? and that these gentile greeks are grafted into Israel. but that "lost Israel" only supposes they are gentiles. I’m well aquainted with the "terminology" do you make the claim that *no* gentile converts have become "christian"? that the only "gentile" converts are actually "lost Israel"? I can’t agree with you if you say that. I can agree that there is such a thing as "lost Israel" and that this "lost Israel" is not jews nor hellenized jews. and you can find somewhere in Isaiah, i think, where God says he "divorced" Israel but intends to take them back and that her sister Judah was 10 times more treacherous. Romans wasn’t written in Hebrew. Well we don’t know for sure, do we. Nonetheless, I was giving you the source for Pauls terminology; which, incidently is in the Hebrew text.
the hebrew new testament is a translation from the greek. you claim that the gentiles Paul refers to is always "lost Israel?" and that no true gentile greeks were converted to christianity?
Response:
does it perturb you that greeks, actual greeks, should become "christian"?
Not at all! Are all Jews descended from Jacob? are you trying to claim that only Israel has become "christian"?
Just as proselytes may enter the Jewish faith, so, also, may they enter into the Christian faith. The two faiths, however, are two witnesses that represent the two houses: Ephraim/Israel and Judah. The explanation is found in the parable (midrash) of the prodigal son. The younger son is Christianity and the older is Judaism. The younger son wastes his inheritance on whores (pagan worship). But now Christians everywhere are returning to G-d’s instructions (Torah) and abandoning the golden calf. where all gentile "christians" are actually lost Israel?
No! is the ethiopian eunuch from Israel?
Yes! Are you familiar with the history of the Ethiopian Jews? It is said that they discended from Solomon through the Queen of Sheba. It is interesting to note that some believe that Solomon himself was black because his mother was Bat Sheba (daughter of Sheba). Well we don’t know for sure, do we. Nonetheless, I was giving you the source for Pauls terminology; which, incidently is in the Hebrew text. the hebrew new testament is a translation from the greek.
We now know that this is not true because of what happens in the text itself when it is translated back into Hebrew (according to Dr Brad Young). you claim that the gentiles Paul refers to is always "lost Israel?"
No, actually I did not make that claim. and that no true gentile greeks were converted to christianity?
True Greeks may have been converted: I don’t know. G-d draws whom he will unto himself and he has promised to re-gather Israel. — Gregory Richardson Christian Renewal Ministries International & Fellowship of Messiah Exploring the Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith
Response:
does it perturb you that greeks, actual greeks, should become "christian"? Not at all! Are all Jews descended from Jacob? are you trying to claim that only Israel has become "christian"? Just as proselytes may enter the Jewish faith, so, also,
may they enter into the Christian faith. The two faiths, however, are two witnesses that represent the two houses: Ephraim/Israel and Judah. The explanation is found in the parable (midrash) of the prodigal son. The younger son is Christianity and the older is Judaism. The younger son wastes his inheritance on whores (pagan worship). But now Christians everywhere are returning to G-d’s instructions (Torah) and abandoning the golden calf.
I figured you were headed here. and this is pure bullshit. christianity is not a call to judaism. pure bullshit. never was, never will be.
Response:
The Old Covenant Is Transformed Into The New A believer enters into the New Covenant only when G-d’s Torah is written upon his heart (Jer 31:31). The Old Covenant is not the Torah. The Torah is but a provision of the covenant. Likewise, the Torah is even more a provision of the New Covenant since it is to be written upon our hearts.
yeah, but what does this mean? letters are not inscribed upon one’s heart. Torah is God’s "instruction". so, God’s instruction is placed in man’s understanding. and How is this accomplished? clearly not by man’s judicious efforts and study. otherwise God wouldn’t need to "place" it there. only via God’s indwelling Spirit is any "instruction" _placed_ in man’s understanding. The Old Covenant, expressed in the Bible’s Old Testament, provided rules for behavior, plus instructions for making sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins. Not true! Sacrifices were given as an object lesson but the sages (of Judaism) taught that forgiveness was by GRACE (Hebrew: Chesed).
Grace means "acceptance" and favor. God would have to "accept" any sacrifice. and therefore show "acceptance" of the offerer. interesting to note, "ruwach" means "to accept" as a verb and Spirit or spirit or breath etc. as a noun. the Ruwach is given upon acceptance of the sacrifice of God. And all of the sacrifices required by the Old Covenant have now been paid by Jesus Christ, so we do not need to make the sacrifices ourselves, if we accept Him as our Lord and Saviour. The "Christian church" ceased to offer sacrifices in 70 CE for the same reason that the Jews ceased to offer them (Acts 21:26; Acts 24:17).
eh. this is just Paul being contrite, artificially I’d say, in order to prolong his attempts at proclaiming his "message" in view of the death threats and absolute vow unto death that some 40 people had taken againts him. and he says, "after many years" after many years of not offering sacrifice. *Paul* was not offering sacrifices all those years. not and making claims that he did about Christ and the insufficiancy of all of _those_ sacrifices to "cleanse the conscience" The prophets tell us that in the Messianic Age (the seventh millennium), at the time of the third temple, the sacrifices will be re-instituted (Ezekiel 44:14-24, 27; 45:17; 46:12; Zech. 14:21)
there is talk of some Temple coming down from heaven. and then of no Temple being present in the new Jerusalem. so, if some Temple appears in the 1000 year reign, it won’t be one constructed by man. The Old Covenant was for God’s chosen people, Israel. It was not exportable to other people in other cultures and times. But the New Covenant is exportable, suitable to all people everywhere, throughout time. Who is Israel? The Talmud tells us that when the Northern Kingdom [the House of Israel] was taken into exile by the Assyrians that they became "goyim". Gen. 18:18 says that all of the nations of the earth would be "grafted into" Abraham. [Hebrew: neeverecu = "grafted in" / sometimes rendered "blessed"]
I see, "barak" which just means "blessed" and the "grafted in" bit refers to outright gentiles. the greeks were "grafted" in. but not grafted into the _physical_ Israel. and the House of Israel, even though they think they are gentiles are *NOT* gentiles, and therefore have no need of being "grafted into" a House in which they are already members.
Response:
The Old Covenant Is Transformed Into The New The Old Covenant, expressed in the Bible’s Old Testament, provided rules for behavior, plus instructions for making sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins. The Old Covenant has now passed away, and the New Covenant has taken it’s place. The New Covenant is expressed in the Bible’s New Testament. Under the new Covenant, all of God’s law is now embodied in the Golden Rule, Matthew 7:12. "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." (Matthew 7:12 KJV) And all of the sacrifices required by the Old Covenant have now been paid by Jesus Christ, so we do not need to make the sacrifices ourselves, if we accept Him as our Lord and Saviour. The Old Covenant was for God’s chosen people, Israel. It was not exportable to other people in other cultures and times. But the New Covenant is exportable, suitable to all people everywhere, throughout time. And the New Covenant is this: accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour; and follow the Golden Rule, which embodies all of God’s law for mankind. May God bless this presentation of His holy Word. Bill McGinnis << http://www.patriot.net/users/bmcgin/ministries.html "Teaching The Beautiful Christian Life" http://www.patriot.net/users/bmcgin/chapel.html INTERNET DAILY CHAPEL
Response:
I see, "barak" which just means "blessed"
True but "barak" does not appear in this verse. Do not rely on James Strong here because Strong got it wrong. Look at the actual text in Hebrew. and the "grafted in" bit refers to outright gentiles.
Not true! In Romans 11:17-24 discusses this grafting which appears in the promise to Abraham. Verse 25 gives the identity of who is being grafted in. The phrase "fullness of the Gentiles" in Hebrew is "melo goyim". We find the identical phrase in Gen. 48:19. The phrase "multitude of nations" in the Hebrew is "melo goyim" or "fulness of the Gentiles". It was a prophesy about Ephraim, which would be the chief tribe of the Northern Kingdom. the greeks were "grafted" in. but not grafted into the _physical_ Israel. and the House of Israel, even though they think they are gentiles are *NOT* gentiles, and therefore have no need of being "grafted into" a House in which they are already members.
– Gregory Richardson Christian Renewal Ministries International & Fellowship of Messiah Exploring the Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith
Response:
BILL, this answer is NOT directed at you, but Christianity as a whole which we are ALL responsible for, including me. What about Lev. 10:9, a statue FOREVER? Lev. 16:33, an everlasting statue? Lev. 24:3,8 statue forever & an everlasting covenant? Num. 18:19, a statue FOREVER? Are ALL these and other such written Words of God to be throw aside for moden thinking? Does Christianity think to change the times and the law [Dan. 7:25]? 2 Pet. 2:1-22, Acts 20:28-31 and many more scriptures WARN us of speaking lies in hypocrisy [1 Tim. 4:1], which is the mystery of inquity [Isa. 32:6]. -**** Posted from RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com/?c ****- Search and Read Usenet Discussions in your Browser
Response:
What about Lev. 10:9, a statue FOREVER? Lev. 16:33, an everlasting statue? Lev. 24:3,8 statue forever & an everlasting covenant? Num. 18:19, a statue FOREVER?
no Temple. Israel broke the contract, not God. and yet God has kept God’s part anyway. there’s been no transformation.
Response:
The Old Covenant Is Transformed Into The New
A believer enters into the New Covenant only when G-d’s Torah is written upon his heart (Jer 31:31). The Old Covenant is not the Torah. The Torah is but a provision of the covenant. Likewise, the Torah is even more a provision of the New Covenant since it is to be written upon our hearts. The Old Covenant, expressed in the Bible’s Old Testament, provided rules for behavior, plus instructions for making sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins.
Not true! Sacrifices were given as an object lesson but the sages (of Judaism) taught that forgiveness was by GRACE (Hebrew: Chesed). The Old Covenant has now passed away, and the New Covenant has taken it’s place. The New Covenant is expressed in the Bible’s New Testament.
The difference between the New Covenant and the Old Covenant is purely halachic. Under the new Covenant, all of God’s law is now embodied in the Golden Rule, Matthew 7:12.
It is interesting that Jesus should quote Hillel in Matthew 7:12. Hillel made this comment about fifty years earlier. In fact we find a reference to Jesus talking to Hillel when he was 12 years of age. The difference between Old and New Covenant is very well illustrated in the 300 plus [recorded] disagreements between Hillel and Shammai. "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." (Matthew 7:12 KJV) And all of the sacrifices required by the Old Covenant have now been paid by Jesus Christ, so we do not need to make the sacrifices ourselves, if we accept Him as our Lord and Saviour.
The "Christian church" ceased to offer sacrifices in 70 CE for the same reason that the Jews ceased to offer them (Acts 21:26; Acts 24:17). The prophets tell us that in the Messianic Age (the seventh millennium), at the time of the third temple, the sacrifices will be re-instituted (Ezekiel 44:14-24, 27; 45:17; 46:12; Zech. 14:21) The Old Covenant was for God’s chosen people, Israel. It was not exportable to other people in other cultures and times. But the New Covenant is exportable, suitable to all people everywhere, throughout time.
Who is Israel? The Talmud tells us that when the Northern Kingdom [the House of Israel] was taken into exile by the Assyrians that they became "goyim". Gen. 18:18 says that all of the nations of the earth would be "grafted into" Abraham. [Hebrew: neeverecu = "grafted in" / sometimes rendered "blessed"] And the New Covenant is this: accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour; and follow the Golden Rule, which embodies all of God’s law for mankind. May God bless this presentation of His holy Word. Bill McGinnis << http://www.patriot.net/users/bmcgin/ministries.html "Teaching The Beautiful Christian Life" http://www.patriot.net/users/bmcgin/chapel.html INTERNET DAILY CHAPEL
– Gregory Richardson Christian Renewal Ministries International & Fellowship of Messiah Exploring the Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith
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