Is John W. a liar or not? A journey of discovery commences!

Christianity QA » Christian Church » Is John W. a liar or not? A journey of discovery commences!

Christian Church

Question:

Of course, it may be that John W is suffering from mental illness.

If you’ve had real-time experience with a mentally ill person, you’ll see that John W isn’t mentally ill, at least not judging by his writing. The televangelists say and write things even more absurd than John’s claims, and many of those guys are multi-millionaires, running large media and business operations. Simply spouting cult doctrine doesn’t make you mentally ill, it just indicates you might be a crackpot.

Response:

Actually, I have thought of a useful question. What unit were you serving in when you were on detachment to RAF Alconbury/Lakenheath? Thanks Andrew

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have you not noticed John, that Andrew is going through all this trouble just to verify your claim that there is a Baptist church from 525 AD in England??? Galia, it’s no trouble, I am in the area anyway on other business. Rest assured I am not travelling to this part of the country *solely* to check up on a random Usenet poster’s claims! Why don’t you acknowledge it? I have pasted part of your reply regarding the church in Ephesus, where you criticise people in this NG for not getting off their "a**" to make a trip to turkey. Here Andrew is driving the extra mileage, and YOU just ignore it!! Why is that, John? galia I will not admit there’s no church where I was merely because the uneducated, untraveled, can’t get off their asses long enough to go see for themselves. They aren’t interested; they merely sit in here looking for people to attack. Move on. John W John W has claimed on these groups (amongst his 1st century church in Ephesus posts) that a Baptist church exists in England whose building dates from 525 AD. I have reason to believe that he is, at best, mistaken that such a structure exists. Despite the fact that, when pressed, John W changes his account or admits that his memory may have been a little foggy on certain details, I believe it is possible to prove once and for all the truthfulness of his story. As God would have it, I am visiting a town called Sawbridgeworth on Saturday (9th August 2003) for a friend’s birthday. It’s about a 2 hour detour from there to both the possible locations of John W’s 6th Century church. I propose to visit both sites and document my findings (or lack thereof). I am sorry to have missed this wonderful news. But you must understand, when I get so much nasty mail including from you, I see your name, now, and I pass over it. John W, galia has *ever* sent you a nasty message. Indeed, she has offered her support for you in the past!

Yes, I have already apologized to galia. That comment was aimed at you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As I seem to understand your information, you DID understand that my memory is hazy and I frankly do not recall to be PRECISE whether the tiny church was outside ( to the left when facing the AFB’s main gate, from the outside, facing the guard shack) either Lakenheath AFB ( I forget the county), or RAF Alconbury, East Anglia, Huntingtonshire. Either base, the little gray (?) stone (?) church is to the left of the main gate of the RAF base. Alconbury is in the county of Cambridgeshire. "Huntingdonshire" is a district of the aforementioned county. However, I’ll let you off your poor geographical knowledge of the UK. RAF Lakenheath is in Suffolk btw. The size of the church would be ROUGHLY 25′ square. It’s plain outside, plain inside. There were no icons when I was there, and a footpumped pipe organ to the right of the sanctuary. I don’t recall where the pulpit was, though I want to say that the new pastor ( I realized later that this was a church planting committee, opening a "long-unused church") was positioned on the same level as the congregation Hmmm, you admit here that these people were opening a "long unused church". You do realise that this deals a death blow to the notion that the church you’re talking about is "proof" of the Baptists existing before the 17th Century.

I don’t see that at all. But I’ll "take your word for it." (not) I see you making an assumption that I do not make. Just because the First Baptist Church of Little Rock goes out of business in 1950 and then the 2nd Baptist Church decides to lease the building 30 years later does not negate the fact that Baptists previously occupied the building. I think the church would not hold more than 50 people, and that would be full. Then why in the past have you claimed it could hold 100?? In a church 25′ x 25′ with a pipe organ and pulpit too! What were the seating arrangements by the way?

I DO NOT REMEMBER. I’m guesstimating. I’ve rarely been asked to "count bodies" so I don’t know how to guesstimate. Give me a break. Seating arrangements were simply something like 6 – 8 rows of pews on each side of the center aisle. Each pew probably seats 20. If I have made a mistake on the cornerstone, and it reads 565 AD, I apologize. Someone mentioned awhile back that the AD should have been first. That may have become the standard. The AD on the church in turkey was AFTER the number. If someone finds the church and it’s AD 62, I’ll apologize. I am fully aware of your "foggy memory". I will document what is there and post it. I’m sure a 50 year discrepancy will be forgiven, a thousand years will raise more than a few eyebrows tho’

Agreed. The church in Turkey is SOLIDLY 1st C., like 70 AD, 56 AD, 84 AD, something like that. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To recap (for those who don’t know this particular saga), here are the details as John W has claimed in previous posts: – The church is located just outside the gatehouse of either RAF Alconbury or RAF Lakenheath. Correct. However, from other posts John W has made, the village of Little Stukeley (that contains RAF Alconbury’s gatehouse) seems the most likely candidate. Sorry. I don’t know where Little Stuckley came from, unless it’s the tiny hamlet the base or church actually resides in. however, the Base is in the town of East Anglia, the church is the First Baptist church of East Anglia, as I recall. County of Huntingtonshire (?). Again, I apologize. The Little Stuckley was a brain anomalie. The church and the base are in East Anglia, The base is in Cambridgeshire Mr John W, I do know my own country. My father is still in the RAF and I have visited *many* bases in my time. Little Stukeley contains the gatehouse of RAF Alconbury, and was mentioned in posts you have made earlier this year on the subject of this church. Follow this link for the map (you’ll need to cut & paste carefully to restore the link properly):

Fine. I was trying to pin down the location, not start a new war. Personally I don’t think the church will be any less significant if it’s in Ealy. And PLEASE while you’re bothering to document this church, once you’ve found and photographed it, let your national Antiquities Registry know it’s there. If they don’t know, they ought. It’s a great national treasure. It may be the ONLY group of Christians in England in the 6th C managed to build and hide a church the Romans didn’t destroy, or someone else. John W John W – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=521020&y=275470&z=3&sv=521500… While we’re at it, here’s Lakenheath’s gatehouse map: http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=572835&y=279965&z=3&sv=572500… Note that the map evidence makes Alconbury a far more likely candidate, as the area surrounding Lakenheath gatehouse is modern and was most likely built at the same time as the base. <snip for brevity – Apparently, carved into the stone somewhere is an inscription "First Baptist Church" or similar I’m squjnting the eyes of my mind to read the Title of the church. I won’t swear that it’s not a wood sign. My best recollection, however, is the name, East Anglia First Baptist Church, or to that effect. The whole reason I was shocked and remarked on it was some had almost convince me that we Baptists didn’t exist in the 5th C. We did. Don’t assert things as fact when you cannot clearly remember. About the only fact about this church that you haven’t changed is the claim that there’s a foot-powered organ inside!! Plus, the fact that there is a Baptist congregation in an old building (should one found to be exist of course) does not prove that Baptists were around before the 17th century! It merely means that they occupied an existing building! Even you should know this. I have yet to see any Baptist literature that dates their organisation before the beginning of the 17th Century. <snip for brevity – The Baptist movement did not originate until the 17th Century, after the reformation. The earliest Baptist chapels are not recorded until 1644 AD in this region of the UK. Why do you think I was so excited to find that church? Engraved with the name First Baptist Church East Anglia, 525 AD The engraving changes from day to day. I doubt it would have read "East Anglia", as Alconbury (Little Stukeley) is in the county of Cambridgeshire and Lakenheath is in Suffolk. In other posts you have said the engraving was entirely different. Exciting stuff! It means I’ve found ANOTHER mistake the "experts" made. We’ll know more on this count next week won’t we? I LOVE doing that! You’re too loyal to the bookworms! You need to get out more. So, whatcha gonna believe, a measly building with a Baptist in its name, and a cornerstone that says 6th C, or ya gonna believe the book god? That is precisely why I am going out and checking your claims. My intentions of this journey are merely to discover the truth. This is not a witch-hunt. I have no desire to "expose" John W as a liar (although

Response:

By the way, Andrew, while you are going to all the trouble to verify that, yes, the church I describe in East Anglia is there, please don’t neglect to notify the Antiquities Department in England, by whatever name it’s called. The building definitively deserves national/international recognition and protection, as does the church I found at Ephesus/Izmir.. John W Andrew

(John the Baptist) 10 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy one is understanding. Prov 9:10 NIV Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com – Still Only $9.95 – http://www.uncensored-news.com <<<<<<< The Worlds Uncensored News Source <<<<<<<<

Response:

Have you not noticed John, that Andrew is going through all this trouble just to verify your claim that there is a Baptist church from 525 AD in England???

Galia, it’s no trouble, I am in the area anyway on other business. Rest assured I am not travelling to this part of the country *solely* to check up on a random Usenet poster’s claims! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why don’t you acknowledge it? I have pasted part of your reply regarding the church in Ephesus, where you criticise people in this NG for not getting off their "a**" to make a trip to turkey. Here Andrew is driving the extra mileage, and YOU just ignore it!! Why is that, John? galia I will not admit there’s no church where I was merely because the uneducated, untraveled, can’t get off their asses long enough to go see for themselves. They aren’t interested; they merely sit in here looking for people to attack. Move on. John W John W has claimed on these groups (amongst his 1st century church in Ephesus posts) that a Baptist church exists in England whose building dates from 525 AD. I have reason to believe that he is, at best, mistaken that such a structure exists. Despite the fact that, when pressed, John W changes his account or admits that his memory may have been a little foggy on certain details, I believe it is possible to prove once and for all the truthfulness of his story. As God would have it, I am visiting a town called Sawbridgeworth on Saturday (9th August 2003) for a friend’s birthday. It’s about a 2 hour detour from there to both the possible locations of John W’s 6th Century church. I propose to visit both sites and document my findings (or lack thereof). I am sorry to have missed this wonderful news. But you must understand, when I get so much nasty mail including from you, I see your name, now, and I pass over it.

John W, galia has *ever* sent you a nasty message. Indeed, she has offered her support for you in the past! As I seem to understand your information, you DID understand that my memory is hazy and I frankly do not recall to be PRECISE whether the tiny church was outside ( to the left when facing the AFB’s main gate, from the outside, facing the guard shack) either Lakenheath AFB ( I forget the county), or RAF Alconbury, East Anglia, Huntingtonshire. Either base, the little gray (?) stone (?) church is to the left of the main gate of the RAF base.

Alconbury is in the county of Cambridgeshire. "Huntingdonshire" is a district of the aforementioned county. However, I’ll let you off your poor geographical knowledge of the UK. RAF Lakenheath is in Suffolk btw. The size of the church would be ROUGHLY 25′ square. It’s plain outside, plain inside. There were no icons when I was there, and a footpumped pipe organ to the right of the sanctuary. I don’t recall where the pulpit was, though I want to say that the new pastor ( I realized later that this was a church planting committee, opening a "long-unused church") was positioned on the same level as the congregation

Hmmm, you admit here that these people were opening a "long unused church". You do realise that this deals a death blow to the notion that the church you’re talking about is "proof" of the Baptists existing before the 17th Century. I think the church would not hold more than 50 people, and that would be full.

Then why in the past have you claimed it could hold 100?? In a church 25′ x 25′ with a pipe organ and pulpit too! What were the seating arrangements by the way? If I have made a mistake on the cornerstone, and it reads 565 AD, I apologize. Someone mentioned awhile back that the AD should have been first. That may have become the standard. The AD on the church in turkey was AFTER the number. If someone finds the church and it’s AD 62, I’ll apologize.

I am fully aware of your "foggy memory". I will document what is there and post it. I’m sure a 50 year discrepancy will be forgiven, a thousand years will raise more than a few eyebrows tho’ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To recap (for those who don’t know this particular saga), here are the details as John W has claimed in previous posts: – The church is located just outside the gatehouse of either RAF Alconbury or RAF Lakenheath. Correct. However, from other posts John W has made, the village of Little Stukeley (that contains RAF Alconbury’s gatehouse) seems the most likely candidate. Sorry. I don’t know where Little Stuckley came from, unless it’s the tiny hamlet the base or church actually resides in. however, the Base is in the town of East Anglia, the church is the First Baptist church of East Anglia, as I recall. County of Huntingtonshire (?). Again, I apologize. The Little Stuckley was a brain anomalie. The church and the base are in East Anglia,

The base is in Cambridgeshire Mr John W, I do know my own country. My father is still in the RAF and I have visited *many* bases in my time. Little Stukeley contains the gatehouse of RAF Alconbury, and was mentioned in posts you have made earlier this year on the subject of this church. Follow this link for the map (you’ll need to cut & paste carefully to restore the link properly): http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=521020&y=275470&z=3&sv=521500… While we’re at it, here’s Lakenheath’s gatehouse map: http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=572835&y=279965&z=3&sv=572500… Note that the map evidence makes Alconbury a far more likely candidate, as the area surrounding Lakenheath gatehouse is modern and was most likely built at the same time as the base. <snip for brevity – Apparently, carved into the stone somewhere is an inscription "First Baptist Church" or similar I’m squjnting the eyes of my mind to read the Title of the church. I won’t swear that it’s not a wood sign. My best recollection, however, is the name, East Anglia First Baptist Church, or to that effect. The whole reason I was shocked and remarked on it was some had almost convince me that we Baptists didn’t exist in the 5th C. We did.

Don’t assert things as fact when you cannot clearly remember. About the only fact about this church that you haven’t changed is the claim that there’s a foot-powered organ inside!! Plus, the fact that there is a Baptist congregation in an old building (should one found to be exist of course) does not prove that Baptists were around before the 17th century! It merely means that they occupied an existing building! Even you should know this. I have yet to see any Baptist literature that dates their organisation before the beginning of the 17th Century. <snip for brevity – The Baptist movement did not originate until the 17th Century, after the reformation. The earliest Baptist chapels are not recorded until 1644 AD in this region of the UK. Why do you think I was so excited to find that church? Engraved with the name First Baptist Church East Anglia, 525 AD

The engraving changes from day to day. I doubt it would have read "East Anglia", as Alconbury (Little Stukeley) is in the county of Cambridgeshire and Lakenheath is in Suffolk. In other posts you have said the engraving was entirely different. Exciting stuff! It means I’ve found ANOTHER mistake the "experts" made.

We’ll know more on this count next week won’t we? I LOVE doing that! You’re too loyal to the bookworms! You need to get out more. So, whatcha gonna believe, a measly building with a Baptist in its name, and a cornerstone that says 6th C, or ya gonna believe the book god?

That is precisely why I am going out and checking your claims. My intentions of this journey are merely to discover the truth. This is not a witch-hunt. I have no desire to "expose" John W as a liar (although if no 525 AD church exists, that will be the conclusion drawn by some). Well, a few have suggested delusional. I mentioned that with a laugh to my shrink today, and he said , "uh uh!"

Your mental fitness is not the subject of my journey, merely to satisfy my curiosity seeing as I will be in the area for other reasons (my friend’s birthday) anyway. I am not so curious as to make this journey *solely* on the basis of verifying your claims. If I travel to the area and find the church there as he stated, I will document it, upload the images to the web and post a formal apology for doubting his word. I’ll be expecting that, but frankly? I don’t believe you. I’m planning by hook or crook to find my own way to Turkey. I don’t suppose you’d consider paying MY way so I can keep you honest?

Hahahahahaha, you’re so funny John W. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So Mr John W, with the above in mind, do you still stand by your story and do you have any further information that would help me locate this building you have discussed? Are you happy with my course of action? Please stay in contact with me as you travel, and I’ll fill in any details I remember. I will say again that I have a disease that is little by little erasing my mind. I’ve given you the best Info I can recall. And yes, I stand by every period, every comma. I wish I could recall which base, but to save yourself time, head out to East Anglia, Huntingtonshire, first. That way, if my recall is on, you have gotten to the right place first. If it’s East

Response:

Probably not. You will think it’s a forgery, like the other skeptics. Have you YET seen my response to this information, Andrew? John W Andrew

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have you not noticed John, that Andrew is going through all this trouble just to verify your claim that there is a Baptist church from 525 AD in England??? Why don’t you acknowledge it? I have pasted part of your reply regarding the church in Ephesus, where you criticise people in this NG for not getting off their "a**" to make a trip to turkey. ===I was there in ‘95. Hungary, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Turkey, Greece, Cyprus and yes, the "Holy Land", i.e. Israel, which he claims is only PART of the "Holy Land". In his sick mind it includes even Spain! The things John W. asserts are totally false! Ancient Ephesus is now Efes (and Kusadasi). Ancient Smyrna is now Izmir (or Ismir). There never was a Christian church building built in the first century. There could NOT have been a corner stone labeled "A.D.". John W. is getting way too much attention with his falsehoods. I went through this with him months ago. He must have been really bored to resurrect his lies in order to start an argument. For now this is my last post on the subject.

Promise? So I can call you a liar when you post again next week? Well, I’ll just find something else to call you a liar about. Ta ta! John W – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Perhaps I may be willing, for the sake of others, to repeat my points if the topic reappears in another year or so. My best to y’all! Libertarius Here Andrew is driving the extra mileage, and YOU just ignore it!! Why is that, John? galia I will not admit there’s no church where I was merely because the uneducated, untraveled, can’t get off their asses long enough to go see for themselves. They aren’t interested; they merely sit in here looking for people to attack. Move on. John W John W has claimed on these groups (amongst his 1st century church in Ephesus posts) that a Baptist church exists in England whose building dates from 525 AD. I have reason to believe that he is, at best, mistaken that such a structure exists. Despite the fact that, when pressed, John W changes his account or admits that his memory may have been a little foggy on certain details, I believe it is possible to prove once and for all the truthfulness of his story. As God would have it, I am visiting a town called Sawbridgeworth on Saturday (9th August 2003) for a friend’s birthday. It’s about a 2 hour detour from there to both the possible locations of John W’s 6th Century church. I propose to visit both sites and document my findings (or lack thereof). To recap (for those who don’t know this particular saga), here are the details as John W has claimed in previous posts: – The church is located just outside the gatehouse of either RAF Alconbury or RAF Lakenheath. However, from other posts John W has made, the village of Little Stukeley (that contains RAF Alconbury’s gatehouse) seems the most likely candidate. This is supported by OS Map evidence – The church clearly has a cornerstone dated "525 AD" – It is a small structure, capable of holding between 50-100 people at most (large discrepancy I know) – It is of stone block construction, with the blocks resembling granite – The interior is sparse, a foot-pedalled organ being the only object of note – Apparently, carved into the stone somewhere is an inscription "First Baptist Church" or similar I have my doubts about this building for the following reasons: – 525 AD corresponds to the height of pagan worship by the Anglo-Saxons. Christianity did not begin its resurgence until the beginning of the 7th century. So, what were heathens doing building churches?? – Granite does not occur in Little Stukeley (or Lakenheath), it would have to have been transported hundreds of miles. – There are *no* records that I can find that detail such an old church in this area. This could be omission, but *younger* churches in the same area have clear documentation available online. – The Baptist movement did not originate until the 17th Century, after the reformation. The earliest Baptist chapels are not recorded until 1644 AD in this region of the UK. My intentions of this journey are merely to discover the truth. This is not a witch-hunt. I have no desire to "expose" John W as a liar (although if no 525 AD church exists, that will be the conclusion drawn by some). If I travel to the area and find the church there as he stated, I will document it, upload the images to the web and post a formal apology for doubting his word. So Mr John W, with the above in mind, do you still stand by your story and do you have any further information that would help me locate this building you have discussed? Are you happy with my course of action? I will report my findings early next week (either on the 11th or 12th August 2003) on this thread. I will also post a web link to the images I will be taking with the digicam. Andrew

Response:

Have you not noticed John, that Andrew is going through all this trouble just to verify your claim that there is a Baptist church from 525 AD in England??? Why bother with such ludicrous claims to begin with? How can a chruch from the 6th century be claimed by a sect that wasn’t even created until the 17th century? (1609 by John Smyth).

Another who prefers his myths to the reality of photographing a 6th C church. John W – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Fear Rua Why don’t you acknowledge it? I have pasted part of your reply regarding the church in Ephesus, where you criticise people in this NG for not getting off their "a**" to make a trip to turkey. Here Andrew is driving the extra mileage, and YOU just ignore it!! Why is that, John? galia I will not admit there’s no church where I was merely because the uneducated, untraveled, can’t get off their asses long enough to go see for themselves. They aren’t interested; they merely sit in here looking for people to attack. Move on. John W John W has claimed on these groups (amongst his 1st century church in Ephesus posts) that a Baptist church exists in England whose building dates from 525 AD. I have reason to believe that he is, at best, mistaken that such a structure exists. Despite the fact that, when pressed, John W changes his account or admits that his memory may have been a little foggy on certain details, I believe it is possible to prove once and for all the truthfulness of his story. As God would have it, I am visiting a town called Sawbridgeworth on Saturday (9th August 2003) for a friend’s birthday. It’s about a 2 hour detour from there to both the possible locations of John W’s 6th Century church. I propose to visit both sites and document my findings (or lack thereof). To recap (for those who don’t know this particular saga), here are the details as John W has claimed in previous posts: – The church is located just outside the gatehouse of either RAF Alconbury or RAF Lakenheath. However, from other posts John W has made, the village of Little Stukeley (that contains RAF Alconbury’s gatehouse) seems the most likely candidate. This is supported by OS Map evidence – The church clearly has a cornerstone dated "525 AD" – It is a small structure, capable of holding between 50-100 people at most (large discrepancy I know) – It is of stone block construction, with the blocks resembling granite – The interior is sparse, a foot-pedalled organ being the only object of note – Apparently, carved into the stone somewhere is an inscription "First Baptist Church" or similar I have my doubts about this building for the following reasons: – 525 AD corresponds to the height of pagan worship by the Anglo-Saxons. Christianity did not begin its resurgence until the beginning of the 7th century. So, what were heathens doing building churches?? – Granite does not occur in Little Stukeley (or Lakenheath), it would have to have been transported hundreds of miles. – There are *no* records that I can find that detail such an old church in this area. This could be omission, but *younger* churches in the same area have clear documentation available online. – The Baptist movement did not originate until the 17th Century, after the reformation. The earliest Baptist chapels are not recorded until 1644 AD in this region of the UK. My intentions of this journey are merely to discover the truth. This is not a witch-hunt. I have no desire to "expose" John W as a liar (although if no 525 AD church exists, that will be the conclusion drawn by some). If I travel to the area and find the church there as he stated, I will document it, upload the images to the web and post a formal apology for doubting his word. So Mr John W, with the above in mind, do you still stand by your story and do you have any further information that would help me locate this building you have discussed? Are you happy with my course of action? I will report my findings early next week (either on the 11th or 12th August 2003) on this thread. I will also post a web link to the images I will be taking with the digicam. Andrew

Response:

John W has claimed on these groups (amongst his 1st century church in Ephesus posts) that a Baptist church exists in England whose building dates from 525 AD. I have reason to believe that he is, at best, mistaken that such a structure exists. Andrew, you sound like a reasonable person, a fairly sane person. Are you aware that you are attempting to reason with a schizophrenic mind? You are attempting to reason with the irrational.

<snip rest as it follows similar theme Of course, it may be that John W is suffering from mental illness. This thread is not about satisfying John W, it is about displaying the evidence for others to see and make their own judgements. I know there are several people here (and possibly many lurkers) who would like to know the truth. If the truth shows that John W is mistaken about this building and he refuses to acknowledge it, the evidence will be there for all to see. Personally, I do not doubt that John W attended a Baptist church of some sort just outside the gatehouse of RAF Alconbury. That part of his story checks out (and is backed up by OS map evidence of the churches in the area). It’s the age and history of the building that is in question. Once that question is answered, I will be satisfied. Andrew

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have you not noticed John, that Andrew is going through all this trouble just to verify your claim that there is a Baptist church from 525 AD in England??? Why don’t you acknowledge it? I have pasted part of your reply regarding the church in Ephesus, where you criticise people in this NG for not getting off their "a**" to make a trip to turkey. Here Andrew is driving the extra mileage, and YOU just ignore it!! Why is that, John? galia I will not admit there’s no church where I was merely because the uneducated, untraveled, can’t get off their asses long enough to go see for themselves. They aren’t interested; they merely sit in here looking for people to attack. Move on. John W John W has claimed on these groups (amongst his 1st century church in Ephesus posts) that a Baptist church exists in England whose building dates from 525 AD. I have reason to believe that he is, at best, mistaken that such a structure exists. Despite the fact that, when pressed, John W changes his account or admits that his memory may have been a little foggy on certain details, I believe it is possible to prove once and for all the truthfulness of his story. As God would have it, I am visiting a town called Sawbridgeworth on Saturday (9th August 2003) for a friend’s birthday. It’s about a 2 hour detour from there to both the possible locations of John W’s 6th Century church. I propose to visit both sites and document my findings (or lack thereof). I am sorry to have missed this wonderful news. But you must understand, when I get so much nasty mail including from you, I see your name, now, and I pass over it.

I apologize, galia; I just happened to read over this post and realized I made a MAJOR error, for which I apologize in advance. The following paragraph I am sorry to have missed this wonderful news. But you must understand, when I get so much nasty mail including from you, I see your name, now, and I pass over it.

SHOULD read: I am sorry to have missed this wonderful news. But you must understand, when I get so much nasty mail including from Andrew, I see his namer name, now, and I pass over it.

AGAIN, galia, I mean Andrew, not you, although your posts lately doubting my word, have not been nice. John W – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -As I seem to understand your information, you DID understand that my memory is hazy and I frankly do not recall to be PRECISE whether the tiny church was outside ( to the left when facing the AFB’s main gate, from the outside, facing the guard shack) either Lakenheath AFB ( I forget the county), or RAF Alconbury, East Anglia, Huntingtonshire. Either base, the little gray (?) stone (?) church is to the left of the main gate of the RAF base. The size of the church would be ROUGHLY 25′ square. It’s plain outside, plain inside. There were no icons when I was there, and a footpumped pipe organ to the right of the sanctuary. I don’t recall where the pulpit was, though I want to say that the new pastor ( I realized later that this was a church planting committee, opening a "long-unused church") was positioned on the same level as the congregation I think the church would not hold more than 50 people, and that would be full. If I have made a mistake on the cornerstone, and it reads 565 AD, I apologize. Someone mentioned awhile back that the AD should have been first. That may have become the standard. The AD on the church in turkey was AFTER the number. If someone finds the church and it’s AD 62, I’ll apologize. To recap (for those who don’t know this particular saga), here are the details as John W has claimed in previous posts: – The church is located just outside the gatehouse of either RAF Alconbury or RAF Lakenheath. Correct. However, from other posts John W has made, the village of Little Stukeley (that contains RAF Alconbury’s gatehouse) seems the most likely candidate. Sorry. I don’t know where Little Stuckley came from, unless it’s the tiny hamlet the base or church actually resides in. however, the Base is in the town of East Anglia, the church is the First Baptist church of East Anglia, as I recall. County of Huntingtonshire (?). Again, I apologize. The Little Stuckley was a brain anomalie. The church and the base are in East Anglia, This is supported by OS Map evidence – The church clearly has a cornerstone dated "525 AD" – It is a small structure, capable of holding between 50-100 people at most (large discrepancy I know) – It is of stone block construction, with the blocks resembling granite – The interior is sparse, a foot-pedalled organ being the only object of note – Apparently, carved into the stone somewhere is an inscription "First Baptist Church" or similar I’m squjnting the eyes of my mind to read the Title of the church. I won’t swear that it’s not a wood sign. My best recollection, however, is the name, East Anglia First Baptist Church, or to that effect. The whole reason I was shocked and remarked on it was some had almost convince me that we Baptists didn’t exist in the 5th C. We did. I have my doubts about this building for the following reasons: – 525 AD corresponds to the height of pagan worship by the Anglo-Saxons. Christianity did not begin its resurgence until the beginning of the 7th century. So, what were heathens doing building churches?? – Granite does not occur in Little Stukeley (or Lakenheath), it would have to have been transported hundreds of miles. – There are *no* records that I can find that detail such an old church in this area. This could be omission, but *younger* churches in the same area have clear documentation available online. – The Baptist movement did not originate until the 17th Century, after the reformation. The earliest Baptist chapels are not recorded until 1644 AD in this region of the UK. Why do you think I was so excited to find that church? Engraved with the name First Baptist Church East Anglia, 525 AD Exciting stuff! It means I’ve found ANOTHER mistake the "experts" made. I LOVE doing that! You’re too loyal to the bookworms! You need to get out more. So, whatcha gonna believe, a measly building with a Baptist in its name, and a cornerstone that says 6th C, or ya gonna believe the book god? My intentions of this journey are merely to discover the truth. This is not a witch-hunt. I have no desire to "expose" John W as a liar (although if no 525 AD church exists, that will be the conclusion drawn by some). Well, a few have suggested delusional. I mentioned that with a laugh to my shrink today, and he said , "uh uh!" If I travel to the area and find the church there as he stated, I will document it, upload the images to the web and post a formal apology for doubting his word. I’ll be expecting that, but frankly? I don’t believe you. I’m planning by hook or crook to find my own way to Turkey. I don’t suppose you’d consider paying MY way so I can keep you honest? So Mr John W, with the above in mind, do you still stand by your story and do you have any further information that would help me locate this building you have discussed? Are you happy with my course of action? Please stay in contact with me as you travel, and I’ll fill in any details I remember. I will say again that I have a disease that is little by little erasing my mind. I’ve given you the best Info I can recall. And yes, I stand by every period, every comma. I wish I could recall which base, but to save yourself time, head out to East Anglia, Huntingtonshire, first. That way, if my recall is on, you have gotten to the right place first. If it’s East Anglia (RAF Alconbury), when you drive by the base (it’s on your right), you will look for a small light gray (stone?) building, 1 story, an overgrown shoebox. The first thing you’ll see, on YOUR side, is the cornerstone. I want a picture of that cornerstone, so I can laugh at all of YOU for a change! YOU OWE ME THAT! To the opposite side (as I recall, this could be wrong), is the "East Anglia First Baptist…" Don’t expect everything to be on one side and miss both or either. I’d LOVE to list all the towns between London and East Anglia. I barely recall Ealy, and that’s about the best. The OTHER way, you hit Cambridge. so you know now that it’s between Cambridge and London "over a bump." You might use your notebook to look up RAF Alconbury on a map or atlas. That should give you precise directions if you’re on a service. If you have any EMERGENCY questions, by all means, use my email address, If you need to contact me, don’t get lost in here. I probably check my e-mail 5 times a day. And don’t miss the church because you’re looking for this BIG building. Whoever built the church worked with available labor. They may have been a tiny (20 or 30) flock. The church is VERY small, and it just sits there beside the road. I’m going to be upset if you’re looking for a porta potty or a Crystal Cathedral and you miss it. I am not a liar. Those who know me have said, "John, it’s been a full life!" I wish it had continued, it’s quite empty now. But you all have taught me one thing. I’ll keep my other 100 discoveries to myself. You all aren’t ready for The Truth. You can only handle what you’ve been taught by myopic teachers. I’ve told many of you that I

Response:

Have you not noticed John, that Andrew is going through all this trouble just to verify your claim that there is a Baptist church from 525 AD in England???

Why bother with such ludicrous claims to begin with? How can a chruch from the 6th century be claimed by a sect that wasn’t even created until the 17th century? (1609 by John Smyth). Fear Rua – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why don’t you acknowledge it? I have pasted part of your reply regarding the church in Ephesus, where you criticise people in this NG for not getting off their "a**" to make a trip to turkey. Here Andrew is driving the extra mileage, and YOU just ignore it!! Why is that, John? galia I will not admit there’s no church where I was merely because the uneducated, untraveled, can’t get off their asses long enough to go see for themselves. They aren’t interested; they merely sit in here looking for people to attack. Move on. John W John W has claimed on these groups (amongst his 1st century church in Ephesus posts) that a Baptist church exists in England whose building dates from 525 AD. I have reason to believe that he is, at best, mistaken that such a structure exists. Despite the fact that, when pressed, John W changes his account or admits that his memory may have been a little foggy on certain details, I believe it is possible to prove once and for all the truthfulness of his story. As God would have it, I am visiting a town called Sawbridgeworth on Saturday (9th August 2003) for a friend’s birthday. It’s about a 2 hour detour from there to both the possible locations of John W’s 6th Century church. I propose to visit both sites and document my findings (or lack thereof). To recap (for those who don’t know this particular saga), here are the details as John W has claimed in previous posts: – The church is located just outside the gatehouse of either RAF Alconbury or RAF Lakenheath. However, from other posts John W has made, the village of Little Stukeley (that contains RAF Alconbury’s gatehouse) seems the most likely candidate. This is supported by OS Map evidence – The church clearly has a cornerstone dated "525 AD" – It is a small structure, capable of holding between 50-100 people at most (large discrepancy I know) – It is of stone block construction, with the blocks resembling granite – The interior is sparse, a foot-pedalled organ being the only object of note – Apparently, carved into the stone somewhere is an inscription "First Baptist Church" or similar I have my doubts about this building for the following reasons: – 525 AD corresponds to the height of pagan worship by the Anglo-Saxons. Christianity did not begin its resurgence until the beginning of the 7th century. So, what were heathens doing building churches?? – Granite does not occur in Little Stukeley (or Lakenheath), it would have to have been transported hundreds of miles. – There are *no* records that I can find that detail such an old church in this area. This could be omission, but *younger* churches in the same area have clear documentation available online. – The Baptist movement did not originate until the 17th Century, after the reformation. The earliest Baptist chapels are not recorded until 1644 AD in this region of the UK. My intentions of this journey are merely to discover the truth. This is not a witch-hunt. I have no desire to "expose" John W as a liar (although if no 525 AD church exists, that will be the conclusion drawn by some). If I travel to the area and find the church there as he stated, I will document it, upload the images to the web and post a formal apology for doubting his word. So Mr John W, with the above in mind, do you still stand by your story and do you have any further information that would help me locate this building you have discussed? Are you happy with my course of action? I will report my findings early next week (either on the 11th or 12th August 2003) on this thread. I will also post a web link to the images I will be taking with the digicam. Andrew

Response:

That a church in East Anglia built on such early foundations is quite possible but it would have been an Orthodox Church liked to Constantinople and not either a Baptist Church or a Catholic Church linked to Rome I lived in East Anglia for a year some thirty years ago and worked in Norwich. There were many old churches in the villages but the oldest were all from the early medieval period There were also some excellent pubs I’m safraid yours truly spent more time visiting pubs than visiting churches. In those days Norwich people were amongst the most laid back in the world. I remember a friend in Norwich ringing up directory enquiries for a phone number. The operator asked "Which town please" He replied "Norwich" The operator replied "Nardge (Norwich) is not a town – its a city – It’s got a cathedral" At the University residences – which looked like a towering barracks block (inside and out) a rather pissed trumpeter would play "The Last Post" in full from the summit every night at half past eleven – in those days the pubs shut at eleven. "Are we now goin" Yup "Is that roight now" Yup +

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have you not noticed John, that Andrew is going through all this trouble just to verify your claim that there is a Baptist church from 525 AD in England??? Why don’t you acknowledge it? I have pasted part of your reply regarding the church in Ephesus, where you criticise people in this NG for not getting off their "a**" to make a trip to turkey. ===I was there in ‘95. Hungary, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Turkey, Greece, Cyprus and yes, the "Holy Land", i.e. Israel, which he claims is only PART of the "Holy Land". In his sick mind it includes even Spain! The things John W. asserts are totally false! Ancient Ephesus is now Efes (and Kusadasi). Ancient Smyrna is now Izmir (or Ismir). There never was a Christian church building built in the first century. There could NOT have been a corner stone labeled "A.D.". John W. is getting way too much attention with his falsehoods. I went through this with him months ago. He must have been really bored to resurrect his lies in order to start an argument. For now this is my last post on the subject. Perhaps I may be willing, for the sake of others, to repeat my points if the topic reappears in another year or so.

Lobotomy is the LIAR! And a demoniac to boot, I bet. Lobo! I’m sure looking forward to meeting YOU after Christ comes! John W – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My best to y’all! Libertarius Here Andrew is driving the extra mileage, and YOU just ignore it!! Why is that, John? galia I will not admit there’s no church where I was merely because the uneducated, untraveled, can’t get off their asses long enough to go see for themselves. They aren’t interested; they merely sit in here looking for people to attack. Move on. John W John W has claimed on these groups (amongst his 1st century church in Ephesus posts) that a Baptist church exists in England whose building dates from 525 AD. I have reason to believe that he is, at best, mistaken that such a structure exists. Despite the fact that, when pressed, John W changes his account or admits that his memory may have been a little foggy on certain details, I believe it is possible to prove once and for all the truthfulness of his story. As God would have it, I am visiting a town called Sawbridgeworth on Saturday (9th August 2003) for a friend’s birthday. It’s about a 2 hour detour from there to both the possible locations of John W’s 6th Century church. I propose to visit both sites and document my findings (or lack thereof). To recap (for those who don’t know this particular saga), here are the details as John W has claimed in previous posts: – The church is located just outside the gatehouse of either RAF Alconbury or RAF Lakenheath. However, from other posts John W has made, the village of Little Stukeley (that contains RAF Alconbury’s gatehouse) seems the most likely candidate. This is supported by OS Map evidence – The church clearly has a cornerstone dated "525 AD" – It is a small structure, capable of holding between 50-100 people at most (large discrepancy I know) – It is of stone block construction, with the blocks resembling granite – The interior is sparse, a foot-pedalled organ being the only object of note – Apparently, carved into the stone somewhere is an inscription "First Baptist Church" or similar I have my doubts about this building for the following reasons: – 525 AD corresponds to the height of pagan worship by the Anglo-Saxons. Christianity did not begin its resurgence until the beginning of the 7th century. So, what were heathens doing building churches?? – Granite does not occur in Little Stukeley (or Lakenheath), it would have to have been transported hundreds of miles. – There are *no* records that I can find that detail such an old church in this area. This could be omission, but *younger* churches in the same area have clear documentation available online. – The Baptist movement did not originate until the 17th Century, after the reformation. The earliest Baptist chapels are not recorded until 1644 AD in this region of the UK. My intentions of this journey are merely to discover the truth. This is not a witch-hunt. I have no desire to "expose" John W as a liar (although if no 525 AD church exists, that will be the conclusion drawn by some). If I travel to the area and find the church there as he stated, I will document it, upload the images to the web and post a formal apology for doubting his word. So Mr John W, with the above in mind, do you still stand by your story and do you have any further information that would help me locate this building you have discussed? Are you happy with my course of action? I will report my findings early next week (either on the 11th or 12th August 2003) on this thread. I will also post a web link to the images I will be taking with the digicam. Andrew

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have you not noticed John, that Andrew is going through all this trouble just to verify your claim that there is a Baptist church from 525 AD in England??? Why don’t you acknowledge it? I have pasted part of your reply regarding the church in Ephesus, where you criticise people in this NG for not getting off their "a**" to make a trip to turkey. Here Andrew is driving the extra mileage, and YOU just ignore it!! Why is that, John? galia snip I am sorry to have missed this wonderful news. But you must understand, when I get so much nasty mail including from you, I see your name, now, and I pass over it.

John, when did I send you nasty mail? I merely encouraged you to admit that you MAYBE are mistaken; I said I still give you the benefit of the doubt… As I seem to understand your information, you DID understand that my memory is hazy

this is exactly what I suspect….. galia

Response:

===I was there in ‘95. Hungary, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Turkey, Greece, Cyprus and yes, the "Holy Land", i.e. Israel, which he claims is only PART of the "Holy Land". In his sick mind it includes even Spain! The things John W. asserts are totally false! Ancient Ephesus is now Efes (and Kusadasi). Ancient Smyrna is now Izmir (or Ismir). There never was a Christian church building built in the first century. There could NOT have been a corner stone labeled "A.D.". John W. is getting way too much attention with his falsehoods. I went through this with him months ago. He must have been really bored to resurrect his lies in order to start an argument. For now this is my last post on the subject. Perhaps I may be willing, for the sake of others, to repeat my points if the topic reappears in another year or so. My best to y’all! Libertarius – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here Andrew is driving the extra mileage, and YOU just ignore it!! Why is that, John? galia I will not admit there’s no church where I was merely because the uneducated, untraveled, can’t get off their asses long enough to go see for themselves. They aren’t interested; they merely sit in here looking for people to attack. Move on. John W John W has claimed on these groups (amongst his 1st century church in Ephesus posts) that a Baptist church exists in England whose building dates from 525 AD. I have reason to believe that he is, at best, mistaken that such a structure exists. Despite the fact that, when pressed, John W changes his account or admits that his memory may have been a little foggy on certain details, I believe it is possible to prove once and for all the truthfulness of his story. As God would have it, I am visiting a town called Sawbridgeworth on Saturday (9th August 2003) for a friend’s birthday. It’s about a 2 hour detour from there to both the possible locations of John W’s 6th Century church. I propose to visit both sites and document my findings (or lack thereof). To recap (for those who don’t know this particular saga), here are the details as John W has claimed in previous posts: – The church is located just outside the gatehouse of either RAF Alconbury or RAF Lakenheath. However, from other posts John W has made, the village of Little Stukeley (that contains RAF Alconbury’s gatehouse) seems the most likely candidate. This is supported by OS Map evidence – The church clearly has a cornerstone dated "525 AD" – It is a small structure, capable of holding between 50-100 people at most (large discrepancy I know) – It is of stone block construction, with the blocks resembling granite – The interior is sparse, a foot-pedalled organ being the only object of note – Apparently, carved into the stone somewhere is an inscription "First Baptist Church" or similar I have my doubts about this building for the following reasons: – 525 AD corresponds to the height of pagan worship by the Anglo-Saxons. Christianity did not begin its resurgence until the beginning of the 7th century. So, what were heathens doing building churches?? – Granite does not occur in Little Stukeley (or Lakenheath), it would have to have been transported hundreds of miles. – There are *no* records that I can find that detail such an old church in this area. This could be omission, but *younger* churches in the same area have clear documentation available online. – The Baptist movement did not originate until the 17th Century, after the reformation. The earliest Baptist chapels are not recorded until 1644 AD in this region of the UK. My intentions of this journey are merely to discover the truth. This is not a witch-hunt. I have no desire to "expose" John W as a liar (although if no 525 AD church exists, that will be the conclusion drawn by some). If I travel to the area and find the church there as he stated, I will document it, upload the images to the web and post a formal apology for doubting his word. So Mr John W, with the above in mind, do you still stand by your story and do you have any further information that would help me locate this building you have discussed? Are you happy with my course of action? I will report my findings early next week (either on the 11th or 12th August 2003) on this thread. I will also post a web link to the images I will be taking with the digicam. Andrew

Response:

Wanna bet you won’t find it? kidding. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -To recap (for those who don’t know this particular saga), here are the details as John W has claimed in previous posts: – The church is located just outside the gatehouse of either RAF Alconbury or RAF Lakenheath. However, from other posts John W has made, the village of Little Stukeley (that contains RAF Alconbury’s gatehouse) seems the most likely candidate. This is supported by OS Map evidence – The church clearly has a cornerstone dated "525 AD" – It is a small structure, capable of holding between 50-100 people at most (large discrepancy I know) – It is of stone block construction, with the blocks resembling granite – The interior is sparse, a foot-pedalled organ being the only object of note – Apparently, carved into the stone somewhere is an inscription "First Baptist Church" or similar I have my doubts about this building for the following reasons: – 525 AD corresponds to the height of pagan worship by the Anglo-Saxons. Christianity did not begin its resurgence until the beginning of the 7th century. So, what were heathens doing building churches?? – Granite does not occur in Little Stukeley (or Lakenheath), it would have to have been transported hundreds of miles. – There are *no* records that I can find that detail such an old church in this area. This could be omission, but *younger* churches in the same area have clear documentation available online. – The Baptist movement did not originate until the 17th Century, after the reformation. The earliest Baptist chapels are not recorded until 1644 AD in this region of the UK. My intentions of this journey are merely to discover the truth. This is not a witch-hunt. I have no desire to "expose" John W as a liar (although if no 525 AD church exists, that will be the conclusion drawn by some). If I travel to the area and find the church there as he stated, I will document it, upload the images to the web and post a formal apology for doubting his word. So Mr John W, with the above in mind, do you still stand by your story and do you have any further information that would help me locate this building you have discussed? Are you happy with my course of action? I will report my findings early next week (either on the 11th or 12th August 2003) on this thread. I will also post a web link to the images I will be taking with the digicam. Andrew

Response:

… I will report my findings early next week (either on the 11th or 12th August 2003) on this thread. I will also post a web link to the images I will be taking with the digicam. It should be interesting to read your report, even if John W follows his predictable behavior and claims that you didn’t look in the right place.

For you of no mind, if Andrew truly goes to EITHER front gate, one or the other has a church perched just outside the main gate. You can’t miss it unless you’re trying. I wish he’d bet me a grand he wouldn’t find it. Easy money. John W (John the Baptist) 10 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy one is understanding. Prov 9:10 NIV Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com – Still Only $9.95 – http://www.uncensored-news.com <<<<<<< The Worlds Uncensored News Source <<<<<<<<

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -John W has claimed on these groups (amongst his 1st century church in Ephesus posts) that a Baptist church exists in England whose building dates from 525 AD. I have reason to believe that he is, at best, mistaken that such a structure exists. Despite the fact that, when pressed, John W changes his account or admits that his memory may have been a little foggy on certain details, I believe it is possible to prove once and for all the truthfulness of his story. As God would have it, I am visiting a town called Sawbridgeworth on Saturday (9th August 2003) for a friend’s birthday. It’s about a 2 hour detour from there to both the possible locations of John W’s 6th Century church. I propose to visit both sites and document my findings (or lack thereof). To recap (for those who don’t know this particular saga), here are the details as John W has claimed in previous posts: – The church is located just outside the gatehouse of either RAF Alconbury or RAF Lakenheath. However, from other posts John W has made, the village of Little Stukeley (that contains RAF Alconbury’s gatehouse) seems the most likely candidate. This is supported by OS Map evidence – The church clearly has a cornerstone dated "525 AD" – It is a small structure, capable of holding between 50-100 people at most (large discrepancy I know) – It is of stone block construction, with the blocks resembling granite – The interior is sparse, a foot-pedalled organ being the only object of note – Apparently, carved into the stone somewhere is an inscription "First Baptist Church" or similar I have my doubts about this building for the following reasons:

Look under galia’s post to me. I have posted you LONG, DETAILED information on how to find the church. I’m VERY pleased that you are going and I hope you are serious about "settling it." If you are, don’t be surprised to find the church right where I left it. John W – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — 525 AD corresponds to the height of pagan worship by the Anglo-Saxons. Christianity did not begin its resurgence until the beginning of the 7th century. So, what were heathens doing building churches?? – Granite does not occur in Little Stukeley (or Lakenheath), it would have to have been transported hundreds of miles. – There are *no* records that I can find that detail such an old church in this area. This could be omission, but *younger* churches in the same area have clear documentation available online. – The Baptist movement did not originate until the 17th Century, after the reformation. The earliest Baptist chapels are not recorded until 1644 AD in this region of the UK. My intentions of this journey are merely to discover the truth. This is not a witch-hunt. I have no desire to "expose" John W as a liar (although if no 525 AD church exists, that will be the conclusion drawn by some). If I travel to the area and find the church there as he stated, I will document it, upload the images to the web and post a formal apology for doubting his word. So Mr John W, with the above in mind, do you still stand by your story and do you have any further information that would help me locate this building you have discussed? Are you happy with my course of action?

Delighted. See galia’s post to me regarding same. I gave you DETAILED in formation there. Also please take my email address. If you have any emergency questions, and you need an answer within hours, Mark the subject Britain Trip – Andrew, and I’ll open yours first. John W John W I will report my findings early next week (either on the 11th or 12th August 2003) on this thread. I will also post a web link to the images I will be taking with the digicam.

I can hardly wait. I am now hoping someone else is going to get tired of me and hop a flight to Izmir. John W Andrew

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have you not noticed John, that Andrew is going through all this trouble just to verify your claim that there is a Baptist church from 525 AD in England??? Why don’t you acknowledge it? I have pasted part of your reply regarding the church in Ephesus, where you criticise people in this NG for not getting off their "a**" to make a trip to turkey. Here Andrew is driving the extra mileage, and YOU just ignore it!! Why is that, John? galia I will not admit there’s no church where I was merely because the uneducated, untraveled, can’t get off their asses long enough to go see for themselves. They aren’t interested; they merely sit in here looking for people to attack. Move on. John W John W has claimed on these groups (amongst his 1st century church in Ephesus posts) that a Baptist church exists in England whose building dates from 525 AD. I have reason to believe that he is, at best, mistaken that such a structure exists. Despite the fact that, when pressed, John W changes his account or admits that his memory may have been a little foggy on certain details, I believe it is possible to prove once and for all the truthfulness of his story. As God would have it, I am visiting a town called Sawbridgeworth on Saturday (9th August 2003) for a friend’s birthday. It’s about a 2 hour detour from there to both the possible locations of John W’s 6th Century church. I propose to visit both sites and document my findings (or lack thereof).

I am sorry to have missed this wonderful news. But you must understand, when I get so much nasty mail including from you, I see your name, now, and I pass over it. As I seem to understand your information, you DID understand that my memory is hazy and I frankly do not recall to be PRECISE whether the tiny church was outside ( to the left when facing the AFB’s main gate, from the outside, facing the guard shack) either Lakenheath AFB ( I forget the county), or RAF Alconbury, East Anglia, Huntingtonshire. Either base, the little gray (?) stone (?) church is to the left of the main gate of the RAF base. The size of the church would be ROUGHLY 25′ square. It’s plain outside, plain inside. There were no icons when I was there, and a footpumped pipe organ to the right of the sanctuary. I don’t recall where the pulpit was, though I want to say that the new pastor ( I realized later that this was a church planting committee, opening a "long-unused church") was positioned on the same level as the congregation I think the church would not hold more than 50 people, and that would be full. If I have made a mistake on the cornerstone, and it reads 565 AD, I apologize. Someone mentioned awhile back that the AD should have been first. That may have become the standard. The AD on the church in turkey was AFTER the number. If someone finds the church and it’s AD 62, I’ll apologize. To recap (for those who don’t know this particular saga), here are the details as John W has claimed in previous posts: – The church is located just outside the gatehouse of either RAF Alconbury or RAF Lakenheath.

Correct. However, from other posts John W has made, the village of Little Stukeley (that contains RAF Alconbury’s gatehouse) seems the most likely candidate. Sorry. I don’t know where Little Stuckley came from, unless it’s the tiny hamlet the base or church actually resides in. however, the Base is in the town of East Anglia, the church is the First Baptist church of East Anglia, as I recall. County of Huntingtonshire (?). Again, I apologize. The Little Stuckley was a brain anomalie. The church and the base are in East Anglia, This is supported by OS Map evidence – The church clearly has a cornerstone dated "525 AD" – It is a small structure, capable of holding between 50-100 people at most (large discrepancy I know) – It is of stone block construction, with the blocks resembling granite – The interior is sparse, a foot-pedalled organ being the only object of note – Apparently, carved into the stone somewhere is an inscription "First Baptist Church" or similar

I’m squjnting the eyes of my mind to read the Title of the church. I won’t swear that it’s not a wood sign. My best recollection, however, is the name, East Anglia First Baptist Church, or to that effect. The whole reason I was shocked and remarked on it was some had almost convince me that we Baptists didn’t exist in the 5th C. We did. I have my doubts about this building for the following reasons: – 525 AD corresponds to the height of pagan worship by the Anglo-Saxons. Christianity did not begin its resurgence until the beginning of the 7th century. So, what were heathens doing building churches?? – Granite does not occur in Little Stukeley (or Lakenheath), it would have to have been transported hundreds of miles. – There are *no* records that I can find that detail such an old church in this area. This could be omission, but *younger* churches in the same area have clear documentation available online. – The Baptist movement did not originate until the 17th Century, after the reformation. The earliest Baptist chapels are not recorded until 1644 AD in this region of the UK.

Why do you think I was so excited to find that church? Engraved with the name First Baptist Church East Anglia, 525 AD Exciting stuff! It means I’ve found ANOTHER mistake the "experts" made. I LOVE doing that! You’re too loyal to the bookworms! You need to get out more. So, whatcha gonna believe, a measly building with a Baptist in its name, and a cornerstone that says 6th C, or ya gonna believe the book god? My intentions of this journey are merely to discover the truth. This is not a witch-hunt. I have no desire to "expose" John W as a liar (although if no 525 AD church exists, that will be the conclusion drawn by some).

Well, a few have suggested delusional. I mentioned that with a laugh to my shrink today, and he said , "uh uh!" If I travel to the area and find the church there as he stated, I will document it, upload the images to the web and post a formal apology for doubting his word.

I’ll be expecting that, but frankly? I don’t believe you. I’m planning by hook or crook to find my own way to Turkey. I don’t suppose you’d consider paying MY way so I can keep you honest? So Mr John W, with the above in mind, do you still stand by your story and do you have any further information that would help me locate this building you have discussed? Are you happy with my course of action?

Please stay in contact with me as you travel, and I’ll fill in any details I remember. I will say again that I have a disease that is little by little erasing my mind. I’ve given you the best Info I can recall. And yes, I stand by every period, every comma. I wish I could recall which base, but to save yourself time, head out to East Anglia, Huntingtonshire, first. That way, if my recall is on, you have gotten to the right place first. If it’s East Anglia (RAF Alconbury), when you drive by the base (it’s on your right), you will look for a small light gray (stone?) building, 1 story, an overgrown shoebox. The first thing you’ll see, on YOUR side, is the cornerstone. I want a picture of that cornerstone, so I can laugh at all of YOU for a change! YOU OWE ME THAT! To the opposite side (as I recall, this could be wrong), is the "East Anglia First Baptist…" Don’t expect everything to be on one side and miss both or either. I’d LOVE to list all the towns between London and East Anglia. I barely recall Ealy, and that’s about the best. The OTHER way, you hit Cambridge. so you know now that it’s between Cambridge and London "over a bump." You might use your notebook to look up RAF Alconbury on a map or atlas. That should give you precise directions if you’re on a service. If you have any EMERGENCY questions, by all means, use my email address, If you need to contact me, don’t get lost in here. I probably check my e-mail 5 times a day. And don’t miss the church because you’re looking for this BIG building. Whoever built the church worked with available labor. They may have been a tiny (20 or 30) flock. The church is VERY small, and it just sits there beside the road. I’m going to be upset if you’re looking for a porta potty or a Crystal Cathedral and you miss it. I am not a liar. Those who know me have said, "John, it’s been a full life!" I wish it had continued, it’s quite empty now. But you all have taught me one thing. I’ll keep my other 100 discoveries to myself. You all aren’t ready for The Truth. You can only handle what you’ve been taught by myopic teachers. I’ve told many of you that I have corrected and taught my scholars. I was the one who discovered denominations in the New Testament. Other churches began to pop up even as Jesus preached. By the time the 1st C had ended, rather than there being 1 church, there were probably 25 – 50 denominations, IN THE 1ST CENTURY. But you all can’t handle the REAL meaning in the Bible. You’re all merely skeptics and babes. I will report my findings early next week (either on the 11th or 12th August 2003) on this thread.

FANTASTIC. And should you have the opportunity to expand your trip to Izmir, Turkey, I want pictures of THAT church, too. (Just ask for the BIG CHURCH when you get to Izmir. I will also post a web link to the images I will be taking with the digicam.

Thanks. I am in your debt. John W Andrew

(John the Baptist) 10 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy one is … read more »

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – John W has claimed on these groups (amongst his 1st century church in Ephesus posts) that a Baptist church exists in England whose building dates from 525 AD. I have reason to believe that he is, at best, mistaken that such a structure exists. Despite the fact that, when pressed, John W changes his account or admits that his memory may have been a little foggy on certain details, I believe it is possible to prove once and for all the truthfulness of his story. As God would have it, I am visiting a town called Sawbridgeworth on Saturday (9th August 2003) for a friend’s birthday. It’s about a 2 hour detour from there to both the possible locations of John W’s 6th Century church. I propose to visit both sites and document my findings (or lack thereof). To recap (for those who don’t know this particular saga), here are the details as John W has claimed in previous posts: – The church is located just outside the gatehouse of either RAF Alconbury or RAF Lakenheath. However, from other posts John W has made, the village of Little Stukeley (that contains RAF Alconbury’s gatehouse) seems the most likely candidate. This is supported by OS Map evidence – The church clearly has a cornerstone dated "525 AD" – It is a small structure, capable of holding between 50-100 people at most (large discrepancy I know) – It is of stone block construction, with the blocks resembling granite – The interior is sparse, a foot-pedalled organ being the only object of note – Apparently, carved into the stone somewhere is an inscription "First Baptist Church" or similar I have my doubts about this building for the following reasons: – 525 AD corresponds to the height of pagan worship by the Anglo-Saxons. Christianity did not begin its resurgence until the beginning of the 7th century. So, what were heathens doing building churches?? – Granite does not occur in Little Stukeley (or Lakenheath), it would have to have been transported hundreds of miles. – There are *no* records that I can find that detail such an old church in this area. This could be omission, but *younger* churches in the same area have clear documentation available online. – The Baptist movement did not originate until the 17th Century, after the reformation. The earliest Baptist chapels are not recorded until 1644 AD in this region of the UK. My intentions of this journey are merely to discover the truth. This is not a witch-hunt. I have no desire to "expose" John W as a liar (although if no 525 AD church exists, that will be the conclusion drawn by some). If I travel to the area and find the church there as he stated, I will document it, upload the images to the web and post a formal apology for doubting his word. So Mr John W, with the above in mind, do you still stand by your story and do you have any further information that would help me locate this building you have discussed? Are you happy with my course of action? I will report my findings early next week (either on the 11th or 12th August 2003) on this thread. I will also post a web link to the images I will be taking with the digicam. Andrew Mr. John W.: Why don’t you answer Andrew????

===He will, as soon as he can think of another lie. — L.

Response:

Have you not noticed John, that Andrew is going through all this trouble just to verify your claim that there is a Baptist church from 525 AD in England??? Why don’t you acknowledge it? I have pasted part of your reply regarding the church in Ephesus, where you criticise people in this NG for not getting off their "a**" to make a trip to turkey. Here Andrew is driving the extra mileage, and YOU just ignore it!! Why is that, John? galia I will not admit there’s no church where I was merely because the uneducated, untraveled, can’t get off their asses long enough to go see for themselves. They aren’t interested; they merely sit in here looking for people to attack. Move on. John W

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – John W has claimed on these groups (amongst his 1st century church in Ephesus posts) that a Baptist church exists in England whose building dates from 525 AD. I have reason to believe that he is, at best, mistaken that such a structure exists. Despite the fact that, when pressed, John W changes his account or admits that his memory may have been a little foggy on certain details, I believe it is possible to prove once and for all the truthfulness of his story. As God would have it, I am visiting a town called Sawbridgeworth on Saturday (9th August 2003) for a friend’s birthday. It’s about a 2 hour detour from there to both the possible locations of John W’s 6th Century church. I propose to visit both sites and document my findings (or lack thereof). To recap (for those who don’t know this particular saga), here are the details as John W has claimed in previous posts: – The church is located just outside the gatehouse of either RAF Alconbury or RAF Lakenheath. However, from other posts John W has made, the village of Little Stukeley (that contains RAF Alconbury’s gatehouse) seems the most likely candidate. This is supported by OS Map evidence – The church clearly has a cornerstone dated "525 AD" – It is a small structure, capable of holding between 50-100 people at most (large discrepancy I know) – It is of stone block construction, with the blocks resembling granite – The interior is sparse, a foot-pedalled organ being the only object of note – Apparently, carved into the stone somewhere is an inscription "First Baptist Church" or similar I have my doubts about this building for the following reasons: – 525 AD corresponds to the height of pagan worship by the Anglo-Saxons. Christianity did not begin its resurgence until the beginning of the 7th century. So, what were heathens doing building churches?? – Granite does not occur in Little Stukeley (or Lakenheath), it would have to have been transported hundreds of miles. – There are *no* records that I can find that detail such an old church in this area. This could be omission, but *younger* churches in the same area have clear documentation available online. – The Baptist movement did not originate until the 17th Century, after the reformation. The earliest Baptist chapels are not recorded until 1644 AD in this region of the UK. My intentions of this journey are merely to discover the truth. This is not a witch-hunt. I have no desire to "expose" John W as a liar (although if no 525 AD church exists, that will be the conclusion drawn by some). If I travel to the area and find the church there as he stated, I will document it, upload the images to the web and post a formal apology for doubting his word. So Mr John W, with the above in mind, do you still stand by your story and do you have any further information that would help me locate this building you have discussed? Are you happy with my course of action? I will report my findings early next week (either on the 11th or 12th August 2003) on this thread. I will also post a web link to the images I will be taking with the digicam. Andrew

Response:

… I will report my findings early next week (either on the 11th or 12th August 2003) on this thread. I will also post a web link to the images I will be taking with the digicam.

It should be interesting to read your report, even if John W follows his predictable behavior and claims that you didn’t look in the right place.

Response:

Mr. John W.: Why don’t you answer Andrew???? galia

Response:

Andrew, you sound like a reasonable person, a fairly sane person. Are you aware that you are attempting to reason with a schizophrenic mind? You are attempting to reason with the irrational. Despite the fact that, when pressed, John W changes his account or admits that his memory may have been a little foggy on certain details, I believe it is possible to prove once and for all the truthfulness of his story.

It doesn’t matter. The schizophrenic mind does not care if it is true or false. The schizophrenic mind only wants to draw you into endless arguments that go one forever. Notice, you mentioned TWO strategies of the schizophrenic mind: 1) He "changes his account" of the story, adjusts the facts to fit. 2) He admits [claims] that he "forgets" what he said, the truth. My intentions of this journey are merely to discover the truth.

He doesn’t care. If I travel to the area and find the church there as he stated, I will document it, upload the images to the web and post a formal apology for doubting his word.

He doesn’t care. The schizophrenic mind has already accomplished more of what he wanted…to be the topic of discussion. So Mr John W, with the above in mind, do you still stand by your story and do you have any further information that would help me locate this building you have discussed? Are you happy with my course of action?

Again, the schizophrenic mind wins. He is the topic of discussion…not the Lord, not the Church. I will report my findings early next week (either on the 11th or 12th August 2003) on this thread. I will also post a web link to the images I will be taking with the digicam.

Even more popularity for the schizophrenic mind, the center of attention, complete with photos. 1) Always the topic of conversation 2) When that dies down, start a new thread and be the topic of conversation once again. 3) Positive or negative doesn’t matter, just be the center of attention and eventually, turn the conversation into an argument. Get ready to be called heretic and demoniac. D* "Improvisation is second-nature to me. I was an actor, you know." –Helen Hayes Hawaii Five-0, 1975

Response:

John W has claimed on these groups (amongst his 1st century church in Ephesus posts) that a Baptist church exists in England whose building dates from 525 AD. I have reason to believe that he is, at best, mistaken that such a structure exists. Despite the fact that, when pressed, John W changes his account or admits that his memory may have been a little foggy on certain details, I believe it is possible to prove once and for all the truthfulness of his story. As God would have it, I am visiting a town called Sawbridgeworth on Saturday (9th August 2003) for a friend’s birthday. It’s about a 2 hour detour from there to both the possible locations of John W’s 6th Century church. I propose to visit both sites and document my findings (or lack thereof). To recap (for those who don’t know this particular saga), here are the details as John W has claimed in previous posts: – The church is located just outside the gatehouse of either RAF Alconbury or RAF Lakenheath. However, from other posts John W has made, the village of Little Stukeley (that contains RAF Alconbury’s gatehouse) seems the most likely candidate. This is supported by OS Map evidence – The church clearly has a cornerstone dated "525 AD" – It is a small structure, capable of holding between 50-100 people at most (large discrepancy I know) – It is of stone block construction, with the blocks resembling granite – The interior is sparse, a foot-pedalled organ being the only object of note – Apparently, carved into the stone somewhere is an inscription "First Baptist Church" or similar I have my doubts about this building for the following reasons: – 525 AD corresponds to the height of pagan worship by the Anglo-Saxons. Christianity did not begin its resurgence until the beginning of the 7th century. So, what were heathens doing building churches?? – Granite does not occur in Little Stukeley (or Lakenheath), it would have to have been transported hundreds of miles. – There are *no* records that I can find that detail such an old church in this area. This could be omission, but *younger* churches in the same area have clear documentation available online. – The Baptist movement did not originate until the 17th Century, after the reformation. The earliest Baptist chapels are not recorded until 1644 AD in this region of the UK. My intentions of this journey are merely to discover the truth. This is not a witch-hunt. I have no desire to "expose" John W as a liar (although if no 525 AD church exists, that will be the conclusion drawn by some). If I travel to the area and find the church there as he stated, I will document it, upload the images to the web and post a formal apology for doubting his word. So Mr John W, with the above in mind, do you still stand by your story and do you have any further information that would help me locate this building you have discussed? Are you happy with my course of action? I will report my findings early next week (either on the 11th or 12th August 2003) on this thread. I will also post a web link to the images I will be taking with the digicam. Andrew

Response:

Address: http://christianityqa.com/christian-church/is-john-w-a-liar-or-not-a-journey-of-discovery-commences-1162766.html

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