- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is a common misconception concerning great saints and sages. That is that they want (or should want) to change the world; to help people. I admit that I operated under this erroneous notion for a long time until I came to understand that it is not possible to help anyone, other then yourself.  The universe is functioning absolutely perfectly in any and every instance throughout all of existence. There is nothing out of place. There is no wrong. There is no one suffering needlessly or gratuitously. Nor is there any such thing as unfair. Everything is just as it should be. If someone is suffering this is the natural and inevitable consequence of having broken Universal law (Puma and is what a person needs, to be motivated, to become aware and make the needed adjustments in their affairs. Yogis cannot defy Universal law, nor would they want to. If they try, they too will be reminded of their error by some form of suffering. I am very surprised you did not react to this idea.

I can understand that if I am unkind in thought or deed it will come back to me because I have messed with the positive and progressive energy within myself and created a negative, disruptive energy. That makes sense to me. If I send out a bad feeling, traces of it linger within me and affect my judgement, heath, stress levels, etc.. etc..Yep I get that. A while ago I read an abundance book by Stuart Wilde who implied that the Jews manifested the Holocaust. This is on the same track as the stuff puma comes out with, saying George Bush’s foreign policy is the cause of Katrina. I just can’t rationalise that on *any* level. I can’t resist it I’m gonna have to start a new (provocative) thread on this one… . Paul BTW, thanks for your continued wisdom Jared. I may come across a bit opinionated and brash sometimes, but it’s simply because I want to get to the guts of the matter via the shortest route, which I know, isn’t always viable. 0 ^ (Namaste smiley v1.5)

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I can understand that if I am unkind in thought or deed it will come back to me because I have messed with the positive and progressive energy within myself and created a negative, disruptive energy. That makes sense to me. If I send out a bad feeling, traces of it linger within me and affect my judgement, heath, stress levels, etc.. etc..Yep I get that. A while ago I read an abundance book by Stuart Wilde who implied that the Jews manifested the Holocaust. This is on the same track as the stuff puma comes out with, saying George Bush’s foreign policy is the cause of Katrina. I just can’t rationalise that on *any* level.

I agree, that is a bit of a stretch.  Hurricanes have been happening to the land now called USA for a very long time and no doubt they will continue to happen to that land mass long after the USA is relegated to ancient history. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can’t resist it I’m gonna have to start a new (provocative) thread on this one… . Paul BTW, thanks for your continued wisdom Jared. I may come across a bit opinionated and brash sometimes, but it’s simply because I want to get to the guts of the matter via the shortest route, which I know, isn’t always viable. 0 ^ (Namaste smiley v1.5)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And therein lies the problem for me.  I struggle with the concept that I must surrender all my beliefs and take a leap of faith in to Gods arms, when I have no proof of his existence. If God made me intelligent why does he want to act like a fool by abandoning my ideology to find him? You do not have to abandon anything.  If something is the truth, it is the truth on all levels, including logical.  When it comes to "proof" of "his" existence.  It is not that one’s conception of what "he" suddenly manifests and you say "aah there you are, why where you hiding?".  It is your conception that changes.  Instead of the classic case of where some people think God is just a more powerful human being it changes into larger view. Why the hell are you struggling at all?  Don’t think for a second that you have to knuckle under to another’s beliefs, especially if they are written down.  The practice of yoga is there to make one strong and flexible, to have an open mind, to not be manipulated by others’ desires and plans.  From your comments you already have much of that, do not give it away. http://www.prahlad.org/gallery/ommen_speech.htm Since having kids I have really questioned my beliefs and come to the conclusion that, rich or poor, I just want my kids to be happy. Not just full of fun, but profoundly, deeply content. That alone would fulfil me. I can’t see any way of attaining this with material possessions, so I am looking to Yoga for some clues. I have always thought religion was for mugs and still do, but Yoga is different, although the same questions apply. With Yoga or Religion one has to "let go". As an agnostic I find that a very hard task. This is not what is meant by letting go.  As you go through life you may have noticed how one has been mostly wrong and how things change. You will find many people (even in yoga) who get stuck looking at pretty baubles along the way.  They think they have found the truth, and the prettier the bauble the harder it is to "let go" and leave it behind. Don’t become a bird in a gilded cage. Wade

Thanks Wade, thanks to you and others, I am *slowly* starting to grasp this stuff.

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them. What can I say? It is human (animal or lizard brain) nature to kill what we can’t understand or frightens us. What happened in New Orleans is a little different to A Yogi performing a "miracle". Because? Were you going to provide an example or rational or am I to take your assertion on "faith?" Of course they are massively different! One is an freak storm causing death and destruction. The other is a bloke in a loin cloth doing something groovy for the benefit of mankind. How much more different could they be?

I guess I didn’t do well at making my point here. Oh well, I’m sure we will visit again some time Besides, why assume that people would react with violence or with any malice at all? For a Yogi, it appears you have little faith in the spirit of the masses. The definition of a "yogi" is anyone who studies or practices yoga. That makes you a yogi. Welcome to the club The fact that someone is a yogi does not suppose any qualification as to experience, skill or disposition. Perhaps you were thinking of a "swam," "shadhu, saint, sage or any individual who has taken "vows of renunciation" or otherwise committed themselves to life of adoration and service to God. Regardless of which category you fit into, the statement still stands.

See above. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is a common misconception concerning great saints and sages. That is that they want (or should want) to change the world; to help people. I admit that I operated under this erroneous notion for a long time until I came to understand that it is not possible to help anyone, other then yourself.  The universe is functioning absolutely perfectly in any and every instance throughout all of existence. There is nothing out of place. There is no wrong. There is no one suffering needlessly or gratuitously. Nor is there any such thing as unfair. Everything is just as it should be. If someone is suffering this is the natural and inevitable consequence of having broken Universal law (Puma and is what a person needs, to be motivated, to become aware and make the needed adjustments in their affairs. Yogis cannot defy Universal law, nor would they want to. If they try, they too will be reminded of their error by some form of suffering.

I am very surprised you did not react to this idea. snip They tried to stone Jesus to death a half dozen times and finally he was crucified. I would call that set upon. Moses? Well duh, he was saving their lives, what reason (fear or otherwise) would they have to kill him? So you believe Jesus was persecuted for performing miracles rather than saying he was the son of God? Please! I don’t remember reading anything along the lines of "Kill him he healed that womans Aunt" in the Bible.

Yes I believe it was because he "healed" on the Sabbath. As for Moses, you seem to be contradicting yourself. Up until now you have implied that the masses would react adversely to "miracles". I didn’t know there were any caveats to that statement, there are none in 7:6. How did those people know that the sea wouldn’t swallow them up and moses was luring them to there deaths?

I can’t be held responsible for "implications". I am not in control of those in any way snip Also, I did not call you inept, I merely I stated I thought your opinion was wrong. Wait, there must be a difference here. IneptS wrong? IneptS wrong? IneptSwrong? Hmm.. Sorry can’t see it I said "I disagree", not "You are a buffoon". Quite a big difference

OK So while you kindly characterize omjaroo as being witty and wise (thank you BTW) when I quoted the bible you did not assume years of study and synthesis of written Truth in many traditions and ask for clarification. Rather it appears you assumed an assault on your believes and your intelligence as well as a hypocritical pronouncement by a bible thumping zealot. No no no!!! I did not accuse **YOU** of hypocrisy. I said that 7:6 is hypocritical! And why would I assume anything about you from a quote?!. It was a quote and I treated it as such..someone else’s words.

Oh, now I understand. Sorry my mistake. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m disappointed you didn’t respond to this. Done :O) (my bad, by this time I am teasing you) Mat 7:1 concerning judgment. In this case I thought it was you who (mis)judged me . Meanwhile I am having fun noticing that all these quotes are in the same chapter and just a few verses away for each other Now it is clear to me that you are sensitive to traditional western religious notions and so I will, in the future,  be more sympathetic about chiding you or trying to convey an idea to you with bible quotes. I am not sensitive to Religious notions at all! The Bible has some beuatiful stuff in it. What I do find objective is plagarism dressed up as wisdom. I could quote Wordsworth or Shelly all day, but it would offer no insight into *my* thoughts. So please in future use your own words they have more substance, humour and wisdom than Bible quotes ever will. Thanks for saying so and I’ll give you humor but where do you suppose some of my substance and wisdom come from? Youy imagination, your spirit, your experiences and least of all books. It is your interpretation of literature and life that is important to me, not your memory.

I suppose you are correct. However I think you underestimate how important books (the imagination, spirit and experience of others) have been in my growing up and maturing.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This brings us to what someone has already so fittingly pointed out the "siddhis" or "powers" are not the point of yoga. To display them would be most inappropriate for a number of reasons which I believe were covered in the original thread. But if you are still unclear, by all means reframe the question and ask. As you read, you will hear this discussed time and again. Which reminds me; all of the questions you are struggling with will be answered in the course of your reading and study. Hence the Mat 7:7-8 citation and an earlier admonishment to continue to read, study and practice for a year or two at which time you will be amazed at how many of your questions will be answered. My rebuttal is detailed above. And yes, I am still on my Yogic journey, I don’t just come here for a fight. ;O) Yes I believe you. Do you suppose I am here for a fight? When you focus your struggle inward towards yourself (the Self) then the arguments with persons, places and things outside of you will no longer hold any meaning. You are not fighting (discussing) with me you are fighting with yourself. I understand that. I do the same thing. We all do. God is not the problem, nor religion, nor suffering, nor is there any problem outside of us at all. It’s all an inside job, as they say. Think about it. If you were dead this moment, what would this discussion or anything outside of your real Self mean at all. Yes, exactly nothing. Remember you are the only Thing in the Universe. You are Everything in the Universe. You are the Universe. This is Yoga. This is why we practice yoga. So we can appreciate, understand and live with this knowledge (Truth). You just blew my socks off again! :O)

Er, eh, what’s that you say sonny? Can’t find yer socks? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now about my indifference Which I believe was probably more your impatience. True.  I can’t be sure you did not respond to that post. Insert (explanation, response, apology, etc) here Anyway, as I read it you believe I was "ducking" the answering of your questions by quoting the bible, rather than I was giving you my opinion by quoting scripture. Given what you have shared about yourself and your search, I can see and appreciate your thinking. I hope I have clarified my references to the bible and how they relate to the display of yogic "miracles". No. Sort of. My opinion is shifting all the time…

That’s the nature of opinions, I suppose. Truth on the other hand never shifts. It is what it is.   And finally (I think Did I mention there is no such thing as a "miracle". Every happenstance in existence has a cause which is intelligent. After all God is Intelligence and would never create anything that deifies the rules of how things work. That would be downright idiotic and very unGodlike Things sometimes appear to be miraculous when we can not see or understand the system underpinning them. But its there none the less. I made a great big jump here, did you notice? ?

I guess that means you didn’t. Oh well, just thought I would point that out because I do that sometimes. I will dismiss an entire idea or line of discussion because it isn’t even related to reality in the first place. Or I will point out that what’s being discussed is not in alignment with what is True (what really exists) and that we are speaking in or with symbols which have no objective existence. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did I cover it? Sure, we are using the word "miracle" loosely to describe a Yogi doing something inspiring in public view. Thanks for sharing *your* thoughts Jared, you are rarely less than provocative. You’re

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Howdy! re: "One should want proof before one believes any religion " Are you talking about proof or EVIDENCE? There’s a big difference! Well its desirable to have proof that a religion is true insofar as proof is available, and lacking such complete proof one would have to decide what to do with any evidence or information one had. If there was proof it would no longer be "religion" — it would be "fact."

As far as you can see, religion is only a matter of belief, not of fact. If faith and proof are not diametrically opposed they are, at the very least, mutually exclusive.

I don’t agree. You’d have to define very carefully what you mean by faith. I may say that I am of the "opinion" that what I know to be a fact is true, but only to accomodate another’s opinion, which might be irrelevant to me, and as a sign that I’m not interested in arguing about it with a fanatic or someone who doesn’t want to change his opinion. You’re talking about blind faith though. I’m not talking about blind faith, but I am talking about scientific proof.

There can be other sorts of proof than scientific ie laboratory proof. If you have one there is no need of the other! There’s a big need for the other if one’s blind faith is leading one in the wrong direction, as in the case of suicide bombers for instance. Are we talking about "the wrong direction" according to the light of the believer or according to the light of a third party, like you or me?

I’m talking about what is for the good of all concerned. Were the crusades "the wrong direction"? No intentional suicide there, just wanton slaughter and people going to a foreign land willing to die in order to promote their faith.

Well, they were based on ignorance, and they were not for their own good or the ones who were slaughtered by the crusaders. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Namaste Dave

TinyArm…@gmail.com wrote: > Sane people go insane after becoming involved in scientology so if you > have any type of instability or mental health issues you should stay > very far far far away because Scieno will only compound them a hundred > fold – just ask ARS’s busiest pro-scieno poster Barbara Schwartz.  Or > better yet read her posts about radio controlled bacteria to get a > clear picture of the combination of mental illness and scientology.

If you go insane – or screw up in any way – you can be placed on an amends project where you must "strike a blow against the enemy." Scientology won’t ever really take the insane person back, but they will use him/her as a tool for spamming etc. So, even if you do go insane, you can have a long association with the cult – if you just "cooperate" with it – and they can "use" you.

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Mxsmanic wrote: > Jim Winters writes: > > Anyone know any celebrities who are NOT scientologists who have spoken > > out against the very real danger of psychiatric abuse? > Psychiatric abuse is a non-problem.  Psychiatrists are simply medical > doctors who attempt to treat mental illnesses medically.  With many > mental illnesses (psychosis, OCD, depression, etc.) they achieve quite > a significant degree of success.

Psychiatrists have the power to commit people to hospitals against their will, to force them to take medication, or to testify as to their mental state in a court of law. Is it so hard to believe that some psychiatrists might try to use these powers in a corrupt way?

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Jim Winters writes: > Psychiatrists have the power to commit people to hospitals against > their will, to force them to take medication, or to testify as to their > mental state in a court of law. Is it so hard to believe that some > psychiatrists might try to use these powers in a corrupt way?

MDs in general have similar powers.  There is abuse among both groups. However, that doesn’t negate the utility of psychiatric medicine, which benefits a great many people. — Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

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William P (dot dot) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Lobsterboy" <lobsterboy_2…@yahoo.es> wrote in > news:1124377241.693962.208310@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com: > > After reading dozens of self-help books and thousands of post at ASS > > and several other forums, and not having found almost anything that > > could help, I’m ready to give a shot to the Church of Scientology. > > So I’ve begun reading "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health". > > The book that started it all. > > Yeah, I know, it’s said to be a cult by numerous and reputable sources. > > I’m also well aware that it’s endorsed by John Travolta and Tom Cruise > > wich should turn anyone’s bullshit radar in a second but…so far I’ve > > read 13 pages and it’s interesting. > > I downloaded it with e-mule, along with some other of Hubbard’s > > (founder of the church) books. You could give it a try, too. It can’t > > be worst that the stuff some regulars usually post. > > *runs for cover before the flames begin* > I’m kind of hoping you’re serious here, although I doubt you are.  But > the older I get the more sympathetic I get to the idea that if a secular > version of reality isn’t doing it for you, you should try something else > if you’re able.

Contrariwise, as I get older, I become increasingly convinced that religion, and irrationality in general, are bad for humanity in the long run.  I used to think that religion was an acceptable last resort for people who can’t deal with the existential angst of a secular universe; but now I think religion doesn’t even generally offer that. Some people insist on exploring "spirituality", or our "mystical side," etc., and that’s fine.  I do think our consciousness is deeply mysterious and worth exploring.  But religion just leads us to bad choices, and ignorance, too often.

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you can read an article, and short thread about scientology here: http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51756 They believe in Aliens and Reincarnation, and that you should pay them thousands of dollars to cleanse your soul.

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"Gray Loser" <gray_lo…@hotmail.com> wrote in news:1124442348.281743.165030@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com: >> I’m kind of hoping you’re serious here, although I doubt you are. >> But the older I get the more sympathetic I get to the idea that if a >> secular version of reality isn’t doing it for you, you should try >> something else if you’re able. > Contrariwise, as I get older, I become increasingly convinced that > religion, and irrationality in general, are bad for humanity in the > long run.  I used to think that religion was an acceptable last resort > for people who can’t deal with the existential angst of a secular > universe; but now I think religion doesn’t even generally offer that. > Some people insist on exploring "spirituality", or our "mystical > side," etc., and that’s fine.  I do think our consciousness is deeply > mysterious and worth exploring.  But religion just leads us to bad > choices, and ignorance, too often.

I don’t even know if secular people are capable of having enough children to support a population.  (I don’t know if it’s true, but if the increasing trend toward Creationsism is due to natural selection, that’s a pretty funny thought.) The Bible, of course, is filled with positively disgusting values.   Nobody really takes it at face value though, or else we couldn’t have a modern civilization.  However, I think many people really do act better because they believe some big dude will burn them or reward them accordingly.

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Mad Mambo Master of Macedonia <n…@newb.com> wrote in news:Xns96B663891279Fnewbnewbcom@68.6.19.6: > "Lobsterboy" <lobsterboy_2…@yahoo.es> wrote in > news:1124377241.693962.208310@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com: >> So I’ve begun reading "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental >> Health". > Dude: ANYONE can write a book that has something in it that might be > true or at least sound likely. Self-help books can’t change > you–you’re theonly one who can do it, and that involves *suffering*.

Or at least, lots of effort.

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Mxsmanic <mxsma…@gmail.com> wrote in news:cgsag194jkffhvdtroh6vj3e6ljn1rd29e@4ax.com: > Jim Winters writes: >> Psychiatrists have the power to commit people to hospitals against >> their will, to force them to take medication, or to testify as to their >> mental state in a court of law. Is it so hard to believe that some >> psychiatrists might try to use these powers in a corrupt way? > MDs in general have similar powers.  There is abuse among both groups. > However, that doesn’t negate the utility of psychiatric medicine, > which benefits a great many people.

It’s actually pretty hard these days to commit someone, whether it might benefit them or not.  The advent of psychotropics which actually work, along with better public awareness of the horrors of the ’snake pit’, and the fact that psychosurgery has fallen into disrepute, has eliminated many of the problems of the past.  On the other hand…people who are dangerous sometimes can’t be committed, mentally ill people end up in prison instead of a mental ward, and community services which are supposed to support them in the community are generally poorly funded. —  "But," he added, "I think it’s also important for me to go on with my life, to keep a balanced life." George The-Buck-Stops-Elsewhere Bush.

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It could certianly help relieve some of the burden in your wallet.

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Well scientology’s mission is to brainwash you and make them give you all your money.  Being shy isn’t on their list of priorities, but I’m sure if you ask they will instantly tell you that they can "cure" you of it.  Of course, they say they can cure anything – cancer, AIDS, MS, head injuries, etc…. Scientology doesn’t mind preying on the mentally ill and taking their money – but once your out of money they will have nothing to do with you.  If you have money and exhibit signs of mental illness they will either lock you up in isolation until you’re dead (see Lisa McPherson) or broke. Sane people go insane after becoming involved in scientology so if you have any type of instability or mental health issues you should stay very far far far away because Scieno will only compound them a hundred fold – just ask ARS’s busiest pro-scieno poster Barbara Schwartz.  Or better yet read her posts about radio controlled bacteria to get a clear picture of the combination of mental illness and scientology. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -August Pamplona wrote: > Lobsterboy wrote: > > After reading dozens of self-help books and thousands of post at ASS > > and several other forums, and not having found almost anything that > > could help, I’m ready to give a shot to the Church of Scientology. > > So I’ve begun reading "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health". > > The book that started it all. > > Yeah, I know, it’s said to be a cult by numerous and reputable sources. > > I’m also well aware that it’s endorsed by John Travolta and Tom Cruise > > wich should turn anyone’s bullshit radar in a second but…so far I’ve > > read 13 pages and it’s interesting. > > I downloaded it with e-mule, along with some other of Hubbard’s > > (founder of the church) books. You could give it a try, too. It can’t > > be worst that the stuff some regulars usually post. > > *runs for cover before the flames begin* >          No comments. I just wanted to add a crosspost to > alt.religion.scientology. > August Pamplona > — > Women bring men they like tasks in much the same > way cats put dead mice on their owner’s pillows. > – Lola on a.s.s. > a.a. # 1811 apatriot #20 Eater of smut > Proud member of the reality-based community. > The address in this message’s ‘From’ field, in accordance with > individual.net’s TOS, is real. However, almost all messages > reaching this address are deleted without human intervention. > In other words, if you e-mail me there, I will not receive your message. > To make sure that e-mail messages actually reach me, > make sure that my e-mail address is not hot.

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Lobsterboy wrote: > After reading dozens of self-help books and thousands of post at ASS > and several other forums, and not having found almost anything that > could help, I’m ready to give a shot to the Church of Scientology.

I knew a guy who was briefly into Scientology.  He was also "ready to give it a shot" at first, and attended a few sessions, before realizing the whole thing was a total fucking scam. Read a few of Hubbard’s more notorious quotes to get an idea of his motivations for starting up his wacko little "church." > So I’ve begun reading "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health". > The book that started it all. > Yeah, I know, it’s said to be a cult by numerous and reputable sources. > I’m also well aware that it’s endorsed by John Travolta and Tom Cruise

Roman Catholicism is endorsed by a billion people worldwide, yet it is still utter crap. > wich should turn anyone’s bullshit radar in a second but…so far I’ve > read 13 pages and it’s interesting.

Utter bullshit has to be mixed with some plausible-sounding bullshit in order to work. I wouldn’t object so much to Scientologists if they were *only* con artists, but they are also thugs.

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I’d love to know what caught your eye about Scientology of all things! – Michaela – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Lobsterboy wrote: > After reading dozens of self-help books and thousands of post at ASS > and several other forums, and not having found almost anything that > could help, I’m ready to give a shot to the Church of Scientology. > So I’ve begun reading "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental > Health". The book that started it all. > Yeah, I know, it’s said to be a cult by numerous and reputable > sources. I’m also well aware that it’s endorsed by John Travolta and > Tom Cruise wich should turn anyone’s bullshit radar in a second > but…so far I’ve read 13 pages and it’s interesting. > I downloaded it with e-mule, along with some other of Hubbard’s > (founder of the church) books. You could give it a try, too. It can’t > be worst that the stuff some regulars usually post. > *runs for cover before the flames begin*

–

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Jim Winters writes: > Anyone know any celebrities who are NOT scientologists who have spoken > out against the very real danger of psychiatric abuse?

Psychiatric abuse is a non-problem.  Psychiatrists are simply medical doctors who attempt to treat mental illnesses medically.  With many mental illnesses (psychosis, OCD, depression, etc.) they achieve quite a significant degree of success. — Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

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Lobsterboy wrote: > After reading dozens of self-help books and thousands of post at ASS > and several other forums, and not having found almost anything that > could help, I’m ready to give a shot to the Church of Scientology. > So I’ve begun reading "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health". > The book that started it all.

Go for it. But keep both eyes open. Anyone know any celebrities who are NOT scientologists who have spoken out against the very real danger of psychiatric abuse? I can’t think of any, which worries and saddens me.

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mWarrior writes: > But while I’m here I’ve always wanted to know how this religion got it’s > name…wouldn’t ’scientology’ mean ‘the study of science’. What up with > that?

Scientology wasn’t originally a religion.  It became one in order to benefit from tax exemptions. — Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

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This doesn’t even make gramatical sense to me, much less have a ring of coherence.  Care to rephrase?  Since you decided to go through the trouble of cross-posting it might as well be something we can understand.

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TinyArm…@gmail.com wrote: > This doesn’t even make gramatical sense to me, much less have a ring of > coherence.  Care to rephrase?  Since you decided to go through the > trouble of cross-posting it might as well be something we can > understand.

He was wondering if Scientology could help with shyness and other mental problems. But while I’m here I’ve always wanted to know how this religion got it’s name…wouldn’t ’scientology’ mean ‘the study of science’. What up with that?

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> But while I’m here I’ve always wanted to know how this religion got it’s > name…wouldn’t ’scientology’ mean ‘the study of science’. What up with > that?

The cult organization wants its adherants to believe that Science is what scientology is about.  Hubbard believed himself to be performing research, while the rest of the world (save for his followers) knows he was only playing nutcase.  He performed not a shred of scientific experimentation, but still wanted to feel "sciency."  He couldn’t pass real curriculum, so he created his own playhouse.  Welcome to scientology! Ramona

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>"He was wondering if Scientology could help with shyness and other mental >problems. >But while I’m here I’ve always wanted to know how this religion got it’s >name…wouldn’t ’scientology’ mean ‘the study of science’. What up with >that? "

Well scientology’s mission is to brainwash you and make them give you all your money.  Being shy isn’t on their list of priorities, but I’m sure if you ask they will instantly tell you that they can "cure" you of it.  Of course, they say they can cure anything – cancer, AIDS, MS, head injuries, etc…. Scientology doesn’t mind preying on the mentally ill and taking their money – but once your out of money they will have nothing to do with you.  If you have money and exhibit signs of mental illness they will either lock you up in isolation until you’re dead (see Lisa McPherson) or broke. Sane people go insane after becoming involved in scientology so if you have any type of instability or mental health issues you should stay very far far far away because Scieno will only compound them a hundred fold – just ask ARS’s busiest pro-scieno poster Barbara Schwartz.  Or better yet read her posts about radio controlled bacteria to get a clear picture of the combination of mental illness and scientology.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Lobsterboy wrote: > After reading dozens of self-help books and thousands of post at ASS > and several other forums, and not having found almost anything that > could help, I’m ready to give a shot to the Church of Scientology. > So I’ve begun reading "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health". > The book that started it all. > Yeah, I know, it’s said to be a cult by numerous and reputable sources. > I’m also well aware that it’s endorsed by John Travolta and Tom Cruise > wich should turn anyone’s bullshit radar in a second but…so far I’ve > read 13 pages and it’s interesting. > I downloaded it with e-mule, along with some other of Hubbard’s > (founder of the church) books. You could give it a try, too. It can’t > be worst that the stuff some regulars usually post. > *runs for cover before the flames begin*

         No comments. I just wanted to add a crosspost to alt.religion.scientology. August Pamplona — Women bring men they like tasks in much the same way cats put dead mice on their owner’s pillows. – Lola on a.s.s. a.a. # 1811 apatriot #20 Eater of smut Proud member of the reality-based community. The address in this message’s ‘From’ field, in accordance with individual.net’s TOS, is real. However, almost all messages reaching this address are deleted without human intervention. In other words, if you e-mail me there, I will not receive your message. To make sure that e-mail messages actually reach me, make sure that my e-mail address is not hot.

Response:

In news:1124377241.693962.208310@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, Lobsterboy <lobsterboy_2…@yahoo.es> wrote : – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> After reading dozens of self-help books and thousands of post at ASS > and several other forums, and not having found almost anything that > could help, I’m ready to give a shot to the Church of Scientology. > So I’ve begun reading "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental > Health". The book that started it all. > Yeah, I know, it’s said to be a cult by numerous and reputable > sources. I’m also well aware that it’s endorsed by John Travolta and > Tom Cruise wich should turn anyone’s bullshit radar in a second > but…so far I’ve read 13 pages and it’s interesting. > I downloaded it with e-mule, along with some other of Hubbard’s > (founder of the church) books. You could give it a try, too. It can’t > be worst that the stuff some regulars usually post. > *runs for cover before the flames begin*

    what does it say?

Response:

"Lobsterboy" <lobsterboy_2…@yahoo.es> wrote in news:1124377241.693962.208310@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> After reading dozens of self-help books and thousands of post at ASS > and several other forums, and not having found almost anything that > could help, I’m ready to give a shot to the Church of Scientology. > So I’ve begun reading "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health". > The book that started it all. > Yeah, I know, it’s said to be a cult by numerous and reputable sources. > I’m also well aware that it’s endorsed by John Travolta and Tom Cruise > wich should turn anyone’s bullshit radar in a second but…so far I’ve > read 13 pages and it’s interesting. > I downloaded it with e-mule, along with some other of Hubbard’s > (founder of the church) books. You could give it a try, too. It can’t > be worst that the stuff some regulars usually post. > *runs for cover before the flames begin*

I’m kind of hoping you’re serious here, although I doubt you are.  But the older I get the more sympathetic I get to the idea that if a secular version of reality isn’t doing it for you, you should try something else if you’re able.

Response:

After reading dozens of self-help books and thousands of post at ASS and several other forums, and not having found almost anything that could help, I’m ready to give a shot to the Church of Scientology. So I’ve begun reading "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health". The book that started it all. Yeah, I know, it’s said to be a cult by numerous and reputable sources. I’m also well aware that it’s endorsed by John Travolta and Tom Cruise wich should turn anyone’s bullshit radar in a second but…so far I’ve read 13 pages and it’s interesting. I downloaded it with e-mule, along with some other of Hubbard’s (founder of the church) books. You could give it a try, too. It can’t be worst that the stuff some regulars usually post. *runs for cover before the flames begin*

Response:

"Lobsterboy" <lobsterboy_2…@yahoo.es> wrote in news:1124377241.693962.208310@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com: > So I’ve begun reading "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health".

Dude: ANYONE can write a book that has something in it that might be true or at least sound likely. Self-help books can’t change you–you’re theonly one who can do it, and that involves *suffering*.  If you want to turn responsiblity for this task over to someone else, then join the Catholic Church.  At least they do some good things like feed poor people or something.  So I’ve heard, anyway.  Or send your money to United Way.   Instead of giving your money to an evil cult, why not give it to me? I could really use a T1 line and a high definition player with a terabyte or so of storage. —  "But," he added, "I think it’s also important for me to go on with my life, to keep a balanced life." George The-Buck-Stops-Elsewhere Bush.

Response:

In news:Xns96B663891279Fnewbnewbcom@68.6.19.6, Mad Mambo Master of Macedonia <n…@newb.com> wrote : > "Lobsterboy" <lobsterboy_2…@yahoo.es> wrote in > news:1124377241.693962.208310@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com: > > So I’ve begun reading "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental > > Health". > Dude: ANYONE can write a book that has something in it that might be > true or at least sound likely. Self-help books can’t change you > –you’re theonly one who can do it, and that involves *suffering*.

    Now *this* is the Christian church, here…

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -ibshambat2…@hotmail.com wrote: > DrEvilHypnosis wrote: >> His points are droll, and betray a second agenda to blame everything >> that has gone wrong in his life on somebody else > You’re an idiot. I don’t see my life as having been remotely bad. I > see this as part of social war, and one I’ve seen in the lives of > many. >> Shambat clearly DOES have enemies, having annoyed a more than a few >> people he’d've done better to not stir up — however, their agendas >> are reactive, to him, not part of some vast conspiracy. > These people are nothing. I’m talking about the people who created the > social climate of 80s and 90s, who most certainly knew nothing about > me & who made their decisions & beliefs they shoved down people’s > throats & magic they did based on what they believed before I existed. >> Shambat’s fighting delusional impulses of grandure and persecution. > I’m not "fighting" any such impulses. Why should I fight them? > That’s like saying that someone "has trouble adjusting" when adjusting > is the farthest thing from his mind! It’s manipulative phrasing that > makes your goal for the person the person’s goal when it’s not his > goal nor was it ever. > It’s attitudes like this that keep reinforcing what I have observed of > people like you. > Cheers, > Ilya Shambat.

I origonally ran into this post while browsing alt.psychology, I have no idea why its x-posted to ash or hypnosis, but anyhow. I just noticed something. You see? Here is another poast that has to do with manipulation. I run into them daily. Why don’t we all pool our knowledge about the subject? I created the group free.manipulation about a week ago. Most news servers don’t carry the free hierarchy, but you can always ask, and usually they will add a newsgroup if users ask them to. So if you’re interested in talking about manipulation and manipulators etc, ask your news admin to add the group free.manipulation. I was going to make it an alt group, but teh big bad know-it-all’s thought it wouldnt be popular. Manipulation not popular? People do it all the time, why not talk about it, get it out on the table? — There are three magical words that make everyone feel happy… ‘no compilation errors’.

Response:

X-Troll wrote: > I origonally ran into this post while browsing alt.psychology, I have > no idea why its x-posted to ash or hypnosis, but anyhow.

If the Shambat posts to your group, it’s because he has checked out the group and has decided that its members are worthy of communing with his words. You are supposed to feel honored and flattered. > You see? Here is another poast that has to do with manipulation. I run > into them daily. Why don’t we all pool our knowledge about the subject?

Surely "personipulation"? Let’s be politically correct here. > I created the group free.manipulation about a week ago. Most news > servers don’t carry the free hierarchy, but you can always ask, and > usually they will add a newsgroup if users ask them to. So if you’re > interested in talking about manipulation and manipulators etc, ask your > news admin to add the group free.manipulation. > I was going to make it an alt group, but teh big bad know-it-all’s > thought it wouldnt be popular. Manipulation not popular? People do it > all the time, why not talk about it, get it out on the table?

Then I started… well, eating cheese a bit… and then, um, some of the guys… started – squeaking…

Response:

DrEvilHypnosis wrote: > His points are droll, and betray a second agenda to blame everything > that has gone wrong in his life on somebody else

You’re an idiot. I don’t see my life as having been remotely bad. I see this as part of social war, and one I’ve seen in the lives of many. > Shambat clearly DOES have enemies, having annoyed a more than a few > people he’d've done better to not stir up — however, their agendas are > reactive, to him, not part of some vast conspiracy.

These people are nothing. I’m talking about the people who created the social climate of 80s and 90s, who most certainly knew nothing about me & who made their decisions & beliefs they shoved down people’s throats & magic they did based on what they believed before I existed. > Shambat’s fighting delusional impulses of grandure and persecution.

I’m not "fighting" any such impulses. Why should I fight them? That’s like saying that someone "has trouble adjusting" when adjusting is the farthest thing from his mind! It’s manipulative phrasing that makes your goal for the person the person’s goal when it’s not his goal nor was it ever. It’s attitudes like this that keep reinforcing what I have observed of people like you. Cheers, Ilya Shambat.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -OB wrote: > What is this self-esteem anyway when it’s at home? Personally, I like > myself, or at least get along pretty well with myself, find myself > agreeable company, etc, but I don’t think I’ve ever esteemed myself. > "Esteem" would suggest a degree of servile regard which no mere self > really deserves (does it?)… not to mention that the concept as used > in pop psychology appears to be suspiciously vulnerable to Occam’s > razor, i.e. if you get rid of it, nothing has changed, nothing is short > of an explanation, there are no awkward behavioural unknowns in any > equation. Thirdly, where is the scientific consensus on how to measure > it? Whenever amateur psychs want to test "self-esteem", they fumble for > a "questionnaire", which of course is a scientifically inadmissable way > to measure anything, other than maybe the gullibility of Internet > surfers and Cosmo readers. "Self-esteem"? As far as I can see, it’s a > waste of time even talking about it, except to point out that it’s a > waste of time even talking about it (except, &c). > Where I do intersect briefly with young Ilyita here is in finding the > word "needy" (as in, needs more self-esteem, as in needs the > best-selling self-help snake oil salesman’s latest magnum opus, > complete with "witty" title) at least mildly irritating. I wish women > who call certain men "needy" would cut the crap and just say what they > think, whether it be "needs a shave", "needs a better job", "needs > $5,000 of dental work", "needs to look more like Justin Timberlake" or > whatever, which would at least clarify whose need is meant, rather than > pretending that looking as if you might be interested in a shag, or > manifesting a desire to set up residence with a live-in housemaid in > French costume, was some kind of disqualifying factor per se, or was > symptomatic of anything other than a fairly bog-standard combination of > lubricity and Y chromosomes, with a piquant dash of indolence. I can > even remember agonising over how to square the circle of being an > eligible male – you have to want (sine qua non), to pretend not to > want, and at the same time be "honest about your feelings". Huh? > The solution: stop reading people who have old copies of Cosmo in their > downstairs toilet. It’s that simple. > OB > I must stop this agreeing with Ilya. I wouldn’t want it to develop into > a habit.

First let it become a habit. Then let it become your destiny. Ha ha ha

Response:

What is this self-esteem anyway when it’s at home? Personally, I like myself, or at least get along pretty well with myself, find myself agreeable company, etc, but I don’t think I’ve ever esteemed myself. "Esteem" would suggest a degree of servile regard which no mere self really deserves (does it?)… not to mention that the concept as used in pop psychology appears to be suspiciously vulnerable to Occam’s razor, i.e. if you get rid of it, nothing has changed, nothing is short of an explanation, there are no awkward behavioural unknowns in any equation. Thirdly, where is the scientific consensus on how to measure it? Whenever amateur psychs want to test "self-esteem", they fumble for a "questionnaire", which of course is a scientifically inadmissable way to measure anything, other than maybe the gullibility of Internet surfers and Cosmo readers. "Self-esteem"? As far as I can see, it’s a waste of time even talking about it, except to point out that it’s a waste of time even talking about it (except, &c). Where I do intersect briefly with young Ilyita here is in finding the word "needy" (as in, needs more self-esteem, as in needs the best-selling self-help snake oil salesman’s latest magnum opus, complete with "witty" title) at least mildly irritating. I wish women who call certain men "needy" would cut the crap and just say what they think, whether it be "needs a shave", "needs a better job", "needs $5,000 of dental work", "needs to look more like Justin Timberlake" or whatever, which would at least clarify whose need is meant, rather than pretending that looking as if you might be interested in a shag, or manifesting a desire to set up residence with a live-in housemaid in French costume, was some kind of disqualifying factor per se, or was symptomatic of anything other than a fairly bog-standard combination of lubricity and Y chromosomes, with a piquant dash of indolence. I can even remember agonising over how to square the circle of being an eligible male – you have to want (sine qua non), to pretend not to want, and at the same time be "honest about your feelings". Huh? The solution: stop reading people who have old copies of Cosmo in their downstairs toilet. It’s that simple. OB I must stop this agreeing with Ilya. I wouldn’t want it to develop into a habit. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Ilya the Bat wrote: > One of the most evil ideas to have come out of psychology has been that > one needs to have good self-esteem in order to have relationships. As > someone who has scored medium on self-esteem test, I am quite qualified > to address this malignancy, without standing to be accused as either > having a low self-esteem or a high one. > The same person can be in a good place or in a bad place depending on > time, situation, social climate, decisions, etc. I’ve been up & down > (as has been my self-esteem) and so have most of the people I know. If > anything, if my experience is to be any guide, it’s when you’re down > that you most need to feel loved. > What is self-esteem? It is how a person feels about himself or herself. > And that of course can be a function of a million variables. The same > people who did well in 1960s did terribly in 1980s. The same character > that does well in one time does badly in another. And the same of > course is true among different geographical locations; professions; > belief structures; and everything else. > Now when I come out and tell the truth on this subject, I get > confronted with grating hypocrisy and malice. If you’re a man, in a bad > place, who badly needs love, then you are needy & need to pull yourself > up by the bootstraps. If you’re a man going with a woman who is in a > bad place, then you are a predator. > It is to be said that if you are a woman going with a man who is in a > bad place – or if you are a woman in a bad place going with a man – you > do not encounter this idiocy, but rather "concern" and "protection" > when of course the above had been utterly missing when the woman > actually needed it. > It is to be said likewise that the above takes place under the pretense > of feminism and its belief in equality between men and women, while in > fact containing some of the most patronizing, most chauvenistic, most > intellectually insulting attitudes that have been expressed in recent > society – a pretense and a belief that can only lead to "protection of > women for their own good" and the ensuing deprivation of them of all > meaningful rights and liberties. > So if you seek for love when you most need it – or seek to offer love > to someone who needs it likewise – you come under attack. > I am of the belief that this meme was created by the predatory > psychologists and distributed through the culture, in order that > millions of dollars pour into the pockets of those who feed on human > misery & prevent people from living for years upon years that they are > under their "care." > Ilya Shambat.

Response:

In article <1121925470.390089.270…@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, DrEvilHypno…@gmail.com says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Your Name Here=Harvey wrote: >> In article <1121915619.001096.311…@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, >> DrEvilHypno…@gmail.com says… >> >Your Name Here=Harvey wrote: >> >> In article <1121910733.891640.229…@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, >> >> ibshambat2…@hotmail.com says… >> >> >Your Name Here=Harvey wrote: >> >> >> How do you know something is truthful and correct? >> >> >Because it resonates with that inside which is truthful and correct. >> >> No doubt a suicide bomber feels that way as he/she pushes the >> >> donate button and all hell breaks loose. >> >No, no, no!  There’s NO doubt at all! >> >That’s EXACTLY the way a sucide bomber feels! >> >It’s also the exact same way that Rumsfield felt, when he OK’ed the >> >tortures in Iraq and Guantanimo. >> >Congratulations, Shambat! >> >You’ve joined their creed and kith.  Excited about that? >> >Birds of a feather share philosophies together, eh, what? >> >> There must be laws that everyone can agree to, and it does resonate >> >> in each one of us, no matter how diverse our belief systems may be… >> >> Harvey >> >Yeah … like the Geneva Convention. >> >Such laws already exist. >> >It’s only a matter of enforcing them. >> whoops, bad typo on my part – detonate button, not donate – >> strange how my mind overlooks such an obvious error. >> With ‘laws’ I was thinking of — laws of conduct and of nicety, >> not silly laws of war. War simply means there are no rules. >> When you are killing people and destroying peoples’ lives – is there >> any convention that is observable under those conditions? >If there isn’t, then we truely are NOT any better than the Nazis … >and, indeed, we never were.  However, you are correct.  The full >achievement of Law is the end of all War.  If mankind cannot rise above >his instincts to war, then he has never been anything more than a >clever animal. >The Great Beast, indeed! >> To have an atom bomb and then say – oh, we’re not going to use it on you, >> we just going to threaten you with it! Is the silliest kind of >> argument. >> And – Welcome to the atomic bomb club, you know not to use it, don’t you??? >" An interesting game, Dr. Falcon. >It appears the only way to win is not to play. " >  – War Games >Well said.  Never better. >> And to use one – will simply show how silly humankind is. >> Totally stupid. Stupidier still, to have working bombs ready to go off, >> at a moment’s notice, just so to destroy them (the enemy) too…. >A political policy called "Mutually Assured Destruction" … notice the >acronym?  " M.A.D. "?  Mad, as in "insane." >Unquestionably so. >> Which goes to show how stupid this world really is. >> That at the highest level, mankind is insanely stupid. >> Harvey >I look at history, and see that throughout all human civilization, >slavery was not only permitted, but was thought to be vital to its >support.  Not even Jesus had the COURAGE to stand up and say "slavery >is wrong."  But 2,000 years later, men of bravery and wise in spirit, >moved to eradicate this evil.  Slavery is not gone, but now it crawls >in the dark and lies about its presence, for not even the most >backwards government DARES to admit that filthy breed crawls in its >bed. >If we came this close to defeating slavery … war can be next. >If we have the courage. >We live on the cusp of a great decision:  with mankind’s next few >steps, we shall either climb forever onward through the heavens night, >to the eternal stars, or plunge through hell of our own design, into >extinction.  Just another failed lifeform, like the dodo. >Let’s look to the Angels within us to bridle the Beast we know so well. >"Know ye not that we shall judge angels? >how much more things that pertain to this life?" >  – I Corinthians 6:3 >"The most disadvantageous peace is better than the most just war." >  – Desiderius Erasmus >"There was never a just war or a bad peace." >  –  Benjamin Franklin

I don’t know what ’slavery’ you are referring to? If it’s the master and servant slavery – that is supposedly long gone, only to be replaced by slavery to established ‘norms’ in life – slave to a job, so as to provide income, so as to purchase the stuff you need to live, all to be slaves to a so-called free society – which is all a fascade. I personally think the key issue is always ‘truth’ – the real truth. And that ‘it’ has been kept from us. Take for instance the Jesus story, that christianity pushes onto us. I don’t think it is 100% truthful and accurate. Christianity changed the story to suit it’s own ends. Namely resurrection was added, which did not happen. Jesus was a prophet and not a saviour. The teachings of Jesus were not encouraged at all. A new version was paraded before the public, which would enslave christians to the christian church. Another truth is the UFO story – it has great reprocussions upon us, and will enable mankind to grow up. All truths will do that – free our minds towards a greater perception of the reality around us. Another truth is the understanding about death and dying. That it is a natural process  and not to be feared, because it is inevitable, whether it is sooner or later. Christianity, Judaism and Islam don’t give us a good understanding about death and dying – they are not accurate nor truthful about it. Harvey

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Your Name Here=Harvey wrote: > In article <1121915619.001096.311…@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, > DrEvilHypno…@gmail.com says… > >Your Name Here=Harvey wrote: > >> In article <1121910733.891640.229…@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, > >> ibshambat2…@hotmail.com says… > >> >Your Name Here=Harvey wrote: > >> >> How do you know something is truthful and correct? > >> >Because it resonates with that inside which is truthful and correct. > >> No doubt a suicide bomber feels that way as he/she pushes the > >> donate button and all hell breaks loose. > >No, no, no!  There’s NO doubt at all! > >That’s EXACTLY the way a sucide bomber feels! > >It’s also the exact same way that Rumsfield felt, when he OK’ed the > >tortures in Iraq and Guantanimo. > >Congratulations, Shambat! > >You’ve joined their creed and kith.  Excited about that? > >Birds of a feather share philosophies together, eh, what? > >> There must be laws that everyone can agree to, and it does resonate > >> in each one of us, no matter how diverse our belief systems may be… > >> Harvey > >Yeah … like the Geneva Convention. > >Such laws already exist. > >It’s only a matter of enforcing them. > whoops, bad typo on my part – detonate button, not donate – > strange how my mind overlooks such an obvious error. > With ‘laws’ I was thinking of — laws of conduct and of nicety, > not silly laws of war. War simply means there are no rules. > When you are killing people and destroying peoples’ lives – is there > any convention that is observable under those conditions?

If there isn’t, then we truely are NOT any better than the Nazis … and, indeed, we never were.  However, you are correct.  The full achievement of Law is the end of all War.  If mankind cannot rise above his instincts to war, then he has never been anything more than a clever animal. The Great Beast, indeed! > To have an atom bomb and then say – oh, we’re not going to use it on you, > we just going to threaten you with it! Is the silliest kind of > argument. > And – Welcome to the atomic bomb club, you know not to use it, don’t you???

" An interesting game, Dr. Falcon. It appears the only way to win is not to play. "   — War Games Well said.  Never better. > And to use one – will simply show how silly humankind is. > Totally stupid. Stupidier still, to have working bombs ready to go off, > at a moment’s notice, just so to destroy them (the enemy) too….

A political policy called "Mutually Assured Destruction" … notice the acronym?  " M.A.D. "?  Mad, as in "insane." Unquestionably so. > Which goes to show how stupid this world really is. > That at the highest level, mankind is insanely stupid. > Harvey

I look at history, and see that throughout all human civilization, slavery was not only permitted, but was thought to be vital to its support.  Not even Jesus had the COURAGE to stand up and say "slavery is wrong."  But 2,000 years later, men of bravery and wise in spirit, moved to eradicate this evil.  Slavery is not gone, but now it crawls in the dark and lies about its presence, for not even the most backwards government DARES to admit that filthy breed crawls in its bed. If we came this close to defeating slavery … war can be next. If we have the courage. We live on the cusp of a great decision:  with mankind’s next few steps, we shall either climb forever onward through the heavens night, to the eternal stars, or plunge through hell of our own design, into extinction.  Just another failed lifeform, like the dodo. Let’s look to the Angels within us to bridle the Beast we know so well. "Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?"   — I Corinthians 6:3 "The most disadvantageous peace is better than the most just war."   — Desiderius Erasmus "There was never a just war or a bad peace."   —  Benjamin Franklin

Response:

In article <1121910733.891640.229…@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, ibshambat2…@hotmail.com says… >Your Name Here=Harvey wrote: >> How do you know something is truthful and correct? >Because it resonates with that inside which is truthful and correct.

No doubt a suicide bomber feels that way as he/she pushes the donate button and all hell breaks loose. There must be laws that everyone can agree to, and it does resonate in each one of us, no matter how diverse our belief systems may be… Harvey

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -X-Troll wrote: > "Your Name Here=Harvey" <k…@ing.notin.aus> wrote in message > news:dbhpc0$asv$4@lust.ihug.co.nz… > [snip] > > There are a lot of things that are fed to the public, that are unfair > and > > downright ‘lies’ – and we have to put up with it. > > But living with such a mess of illogic and confusion can make life > and living > > so much harder here when people cannot tell right from wrong and are > > purposefully confused. > > How do you know something is truthful and correct? > > Harvey > Quite correct, Harvey. It seems the origonator of this thread is > confused a little, but also right on a few points. At least he/she is > aware of bullship going on. Yes lies are shoveled into us daily, thats > why people get confused and debate to no end about what is really > happening, and why. In a healthy society, we wouldnt need to debate > about what is really happening, because we would KNOW what the fluck > was going on. But there is too much damn noise being thrown at us from > all directions. > Anyways, sorry, but self-esteem is important in all things in life, not > limited to or excluded from relationships. By self-esteem I am > referring to a healthy positive attitude regarding yourself, in all the > ways that can manifest. If you don’t believe in yourself, or dislike > yourself, there is a problem which will cause other problems.

However, his point was not that. His point was that there is some kind of evil conspiracy among psychologists to covertly attack the self-esteem of otherwise healthy people, in order to create a false need, and support their buisnesses. Certainly, there are bad shrinks, just as there are bad cops, bad presidents and bad poets.  The Sun also comes up in the East, and the Tides come in and out with the Moon.  Whaddya gonna do about it? His points are droll, and betray a second agenda to blame everything that has gone wrong in his life on somebody else, instead of accepting either a valid medical condition disabling him, or a bad attitude leading to stupid decisions in life, leading to the same outcome, in effect. Shambat clearly DOES have enemies, having annoyed a more than a few people he’d've done better to not stir up — however, their agendas are reactive, to him, not part of some vast conspiracy. Shambat’s fighting delusional impulses of grandure and persecution. This is fairly common among people who simply CANNOT understand or accept the true nature of their problems.  I wish him the best of luck in his struggles, but if they include paranoia and "the world owes shambat a living" attitudes, then his failure is as certain (and as "inexcusable") as Gordon Roy "Internet Legend" Parker.

Response:

Your Name Here=Harvey wrote: > In article <1121910733.891640.229…@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, > ibshambat2…@hotmail.com says… > >Your Name Here=Harvey wrote: > >> How do you know something is truthful and correct? > >Because it resonates with that inside which is truthful and correct. > No doubt a suicide bomber feels that way as he/she pushes the > donate button and all hell breaks loose.

No, no, no!  There’s NO doubt at all! That’s EXACTLY the way a sucide bomber feels! It’s also the exact same way that Rumsfield felt, when he OK’ed the tortures in Iraq and Guantanimo. Congratulations, Shambat! You’ve joined their creed and kith.  Excited about that? Birds of a feather share philosophies together, eh, what? > There must be laws that everyone can agree to, and it does resonate > in each one of us, no matter how diverse our belief systems may be… > Harvey

Yeah … like the Geneva Convention. Such laws already exist.   It’s only a matter of enforcing them.

Response:

In article <1121915619.001096.311…@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, DrEvilHypno…@gmail.com says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Your Name Here=Harvey wrote: >> In article <1121910733.891640.229…@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, >> ibshambat2…@hotmail.com says… >> >Your Name Here=Harvey wrote: >> >> How do you know something is truthful and correct? >> >Because it resonates with that inside which is truthful and correct. >> No doubt a suicide bomber feels that way as he/she pushes the >> donate button and all hell breaks loose. >No, no, no!  There’s NO doubt at all! >That’s EXACTLY the way a sucide bomber feels! >It’s also the exact same way that Rumsfield felt, when he OK’ed the >tortures in Iraq and Guantanimo. >Congratulations, Shambat! >You’ve joined their creed and kith.  Excited about that? >Birds of a feather share philosophies together, eh, what? >> There must be laws that everyone can agree to, and it does resonate >> in each one of us, no matter how diverse our belief systems may be… >> Harvey >Yeah … like the Geneva Convention. >Such laws already exist.   >It’s only a matter of enforcing them.

whoops, bad typo on my part – detonate button, not donate – strange how my mind overlooks such an obvious error. With ‘laws’ I was thinking of — laws of conduct and of nicety, not silly laws of war. War simply means there are no rules. When you are killing people and destroying peoples’ lives – is there any convention that is observable under those conditions? To have an atom bomb and then say – oh, we’re not going to use it on you, we just going to threaten you with it! Is the silliest kind of argument. And – Welcome to the atomic bomb club, you know not to use it, don’t you??? And to use one – will simply show how silly humankind is. Totally stupid. Stupidier still, to have working bombs ready to go off, at a moment’s notice, just so to destroy them (the enemy) too…. Which goes to show how stupid this world really is. That at the highest level, mankind is insanely stupid. Harvey

Response:

Your Name Here=Harvey wrote: > How do you know something is truthful and correct?

Because it resonates with that inside which is truthful and correct.

Response:

"Your Name Here=Harvey" <k…@ing.notin.aus> wrote in message news:dbhpc0$asv$4@lust.ihug.co.nz… [snip] > There are a lot of things that are fed to the public, that are unfair and > downright ‘lies’ – and we have to put up with it. > But living with such a mess of illogic and confusion can make life and living > so much harder here when people cannot tell right from wrong and are > purposefully confused. > How do you know something is truthful and correct? > Harvey

Quite correct, Harvey. It seems the origonator of this thread is confused a little, but also right on a few points. At least he/she is aware of bullship going on. Yes lies are shoveled into us daily, thats why people get confused and debate to no end about what is really happening, and why. In a healthy society, we wouldnt need to debate about what is really happening, because we would KNOW what the fluck was going on. But there is too much damn noise being thrown at us from all directions. Anyways, sorry, but self-esteem is important in all things in life, not limited to or excluded from relationships. By self-esteem I am referring to a healthy positive attitude regarding yourself, in all the ways that can manifest. If you don’t believe in yourself, or dislike yourself, there is a problem which will cause other problems.

Response:

In article <dbilm3$gs…@theodyn.ncf.ca>, bc…@FreeNet.Carleton.CA says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Your Name Here=Harvey (k…@ing.notin.aus) writes: >> In article <1121630883.192710.69…@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, >> ibshambat2…@hotmail.com says… >>>One of the most evil ideas to have come out of psychology has been that >>>one needs to have good self-esteem in order to have relationships. As >>>someone who has scored medium on self-esteem test, I am quite qualified >>>to address this malignancy, without standing to be accused as either >>>having a low self-esteem or a high one. >>>The same person can be in a good place or in a bad place depending on >>>time, situation, social climate, decisions, etc. I’ve been up & down >>>(as has been my self-esteem) and so have most of the people I know. If >>>anything, if my experience is to be any guide, it’s when you’re down >>>that you most need to feel loved. >>>What is self-esteem? It is how a person feels about himself or herself. >>>And that of course can be a function of a million variables. The same >>>people who did well in 1960s did terribly in 1980s. The same character >>>that does well in one time does badly in another. And the same of >>>course is true among different geographical locations; professions; >>>belief structures; and everything else. >>>Now when I come out and tell the truth on this subject, I get >>>confronted with grating hypocrisy and malice. If you’re a man, in a bad >>>place, who badly needs love, then you are needy & need to pull yourself >>>up by the bootstraps. If you’re a man going with a woman who is in a >>>bad place, then you are a predator. >>>It is to be said that if you are a woman going with a man who is in a >>>bad place – or if you are a woman in a bad place going with a man – you >>>do not encounter this idiocy, but rather "concern" and "protection" >>>when of course the above had been utterly missing when the woman >>>actually needed it. >>>It is to be said likewise that the above takes place under the pretense >>>of feminism and its belief in equality between men and women, while in >>>fact containing some of the most patronizing, most chauvenistic, most >>>intellectually insulting attitudes that have been expressed in recent >>>society – a pretense and a belief that can only lead to "protection of >>>women for their own good" and the ensuing deprivation of them of all >>>meaningful rights and liberties. >>>So if you seek for love when you most need it – or seek to offer love >>>to someone who needs it likewise – you come under attack. >>>I am of the belief that this meme was created by the predatory >>>psychologists and distributed through the culture, in order that >>>millions of dollars pour into the pockets of those who feed on human >>>misery & prevent people from living for years upon years that they are >>>under their "care." >>>Ilya Shambat. >> There are a lot of things that are fed to the public, that are unfair and >> downright ‘lies’ – and we have to put up with it. >> But living with such a mess of illogic and confusion can make life and living >> so much harder here when people cannot tell right from wrong and are >> purposefully confused. >> How do you know something is truthful and correct? >> Harvey >Beware if the paranormal writers you read ask this question and answer it >for you, by that preparing you to take all they say as thruthful and >correct, for giving their own definition of trtfhful and correct before >hand, and the reader gobbling it without answering the question him/herself. >Id not be surprised that you’d answer this paraphrasing what you read and >gobbled without reflection nor analysis, swallowing what another one does >for money for the truth cause they write "nobling" their deeds to better >polish their gold bricks. >That is a truth, and a well known and documented one. >It might be of benefit to you to read books specialized on >sectarian/manipulation thinking/techniques, so as to be more enlighted when >you read on the paranormal, and so as to spot the manipulative >dishonest techniques at a glance and >from there, spot the lie(s) in the next lines that some unfortunate readers >are manipulated into believing is the truth. >There are tons of unexplained things in this world. >Charlatans are not one of them;-)

I assure you that I constantly weight up matters all the time, in everything. I do not like to have just one source of information, but others that colloborate. There is one truth – made up of fundamental truths. The fundamental truths support and verify each other. Sadly these fundamental truths are usually ’secrets’ kept from the public. ie. the great mysteries, so to speak. Death – there is no death, the spirit lives on, irrespective of what belief system you hold. UFOs – they exist, they’re real. But there are hoaxes, misidentifications and purposeful hoaxes (eg. designed to give aliens a bad name). Of course, they are of all kinds – good, bad and indifferent as to intent. ie. ETs exist, ie. aliens, ie. angels. God does not exist – the origin of God and gods, lies with ETs/aliens/angels. Earth history – our own history is kept from us, purposefully. Our history would read like some Star Wars saga, sound like some combination of fantasy and science fiction. Truly. Anything in this world is possible, but we are all conditioned to think within a box of ‘conventional reality’ in which only established ‘truths’ and information is censored for us. This is so to control the public – witness our dependence on fossile fuels – surely the brilliant engineering and scientific minds on this earth can find viable and practical alternative energy solutions for us, but there is the controlling power of political power over all that… And politics stinks! Harvey

Response:

Your Name Here=Harvey (k…@ing.notin.aus) writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In article <1121630883.192710.69…@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, > ibshambat2…@hotmail.com says… >>One of the most evil ideas to have come out of psychology has been that >>one needs to have good self-esteem in order to have relationships. As >>someone who has scored medium on self-esteem test, I am quite qualified >>to address this malignancy, without standing to be accused as either >>having a low self-esteem or a high one. >>The same person can be in a good place or in a bad place depending on >>time, situation, social climate, decisions, etc. I’ve been up & down >>(as has been my self-esteem) and so have most of the people I know. If >>anything, if my experience is to be any guide, it’s when you’re down >>that you most need to feel loved. >>What is self-esteem? It is how a person feels about himself or herself. >>And that of course can be a function of a million variables. The same >>people who did well in 1960s did terribly in 1980s. The same character >>that does well in one time does badly in another. And the same of >>course is true among different geographical locations; professions; >>belief structures; and everything else. >>Now when I come out and tell the truth on this subject, I get >>confronted with grating hypocrisy and malice. If you’re a man, in a bad >>place, who badly needs love, then you are needy & need to pull yourself >>up by the bootstraps. If you’re a man going with a woman who is in a >>bad place, then you are a predator. >>It is to be said that if you are a woman going with a man who is in a >>bad place – or if you are a woman in a bad place going with a man – you >>do not encounter this idiocy, but rather "concern" and "protection" >>when of course the above had been utterly missing when the woman >>actually needed it. >>It is to be said likewise that the above takes place under the pretense >>of feminism and its belief in equality between men and women, while in >>fact containing some of the most patronizing, most chauvenistic, most >>intellectually insulting attitudes that have been expressed in recent >>society – a pretense and a belief that can only lead to "protection of >>women for their own good" and the ensuing deprivation of them of all >>meaningful rights and liberties. >>So if you seek for love when you most need it – or seek to offer love >>to someone who needs it likewise – you come under attack. >>I am of the belief that this meme was created by the predatory >>psychologists and distributed through the culture, in order that >>millions of dollars pour into the pockets of those who feed on human >>misery & prevent people from living for years upon years that they are >>under their "care." >>Ilya Shambat. > There are a lot of things that are fed to the public, that are unfair and > downright ‘lies’ – and we have to put up with it. > But living with such a mess of illogic and confusion can make life and living > so much harder here when people cannot tell right from wrong and are > purposefully confused. > How do you know something is truthful and correct? > Harvey

Beware if the paranormal writers you read ask this question and answer it for you, by that preparing you to take all they say as thruthful and correct, for giving their own definition of trtfhful and correct before hand, and the reader gobbling it without answering the question him/herself. Id not be surprised that you’d answer this paraphrasing what you read and gobbled without reflection nor analysis, swallowing what another one does for money for the truth cause they write "nobling" their deeds to better polish their gold bricks. That is a truth, and a well known and documented one. It might be of benefit to you to read books specialized on sectarian/manipulation thinking/techniques, so as to be more enlighted when you read on the paranormal, and so as to spot the manipulative dishonest techniques at a glance and from there, spot the lie(s) in the next lines that some unfortunate readers are manipulated into believing is the truth. There are tons of unexplained things in this world. Charlatans are not one of them;-) —

Response:

On 17 Jul 2005 13:08:03 -0700, "Ilya the Bat" <ibshambat2…@hotmail.com> wrote:

"Lately your lack of self-esteem is just good sense."

Response:

Are you a scientologist? ————————————  DONT CLICK HERE http://urlsnip.com/025027

Response:

arethusa wrote: > On 17 Jul 2005 13:08:03 -0700, "Ilya the Bat" > <ibshambat2…@hotmail.com> wrote: > "Lately your lack of self-esteem is just good sense."

Whose lack? Sense according to whom?

Response:

Iilya May I ask a few questions? First of all what does any of this have to do with hypnosis? And second of all it seems as if you believe that all mental illness is the fault of outside forces that we cannot control. What do you say to a person like me, who has a mental health condition that is due to a serious chemical imbalance.  Who do you blame in this case? my mother for giving birth to me while smoking? Society because they allowed her to? Not everything under the sun can be blamed on other people. I am responding well to medication and therapy and hope to learn how to deal with my problem without the medicine soon. Untill then who do I blame? Lori

Response:

Lori L. Koonce wrote: > Iilya > May I ask a few questions? > First of all what does any of this have to do with hypnosis? > And second of all it seems as if you believe that all mental illness is > the fault of outside forces that we cannot control.

I’m not talking about "mental illness." I’m talking about how a concept from psychology has been misused for evil ends. > What do you say to a person like me, who has a mental health condition > that is due to a serious chemical imbalance.

Take your meds. > Who do you blame in this case?

Who talked about blaming anyone? > Not everything under the sun can be blamed on other people.

What yanked your chain, lady? Read what I wrote before hanging on me such stereotypes.

Response:

On 18 Jul 2005 07:14:51 -0700, ilya_shambat2…@yahoo.com wrote: >arethusa wrote: >> On 17 Jul 2005 13:08:03 -0700, "Ilya the Bat" >> <ibshambat2…@hotmail.com> wrote: >> "Lately your lack of self-esteem is just good sense." >Whose lack? >Sense according to whom?

dude, relax.  it was just a line from a movie i liked.  don’t take life so seriously, Ilya.  it’s too long and hard to be taken so seriously all the time.   denise

Response:

In article <1121696707.576176.176…@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, purplelyn…@excite.com says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Iilya >May I ask a few questions? >First of all what does any of this have to do with hypnosis? >And second of all it seems as if you believe that all mental illness is >the fault of outside forces that we cannot control. >What do you say to a person like me, who has a mental health condition >that is due to a serious chemical imbalance.  Who do you blame in this >case? my mother for giving birth to me while smoking? Society because >they allowed her to? >Not everything under the sun can be blamed on other people. I am >responding well to medication and therapy and hope to learn how to deal >with my problem without the medicine soon. >Untill then who do I blame? >Lori

Blaming is looking at things in the immediate environment. Looking at it from further afield, yields a different perspective. Some people do live very hard and difficult lives (that is unfair and sometimes all too cruel) – perhaps ‘blaming’ someone/something for lifes’ unfairness is to still carry a chip with you, with an altogether unfair burden already – whereas looking at the situation spiritually – that with a difficult life, important spiritual and divine lessons are learnt, that of forgiveness and patience – and to connect with the divine and spiritual within yourself, which allows oneself to somehow overcome the terrible burden of living here. Harvey

Response:

In article <1121630883.192710.69…@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, ibshambat2…@hotmail.com says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->One of the most evil ideas to have come out of psychology has been that >one needs to have good self-esteem in order to have relationships. As >someone who has scored medium on self-esteem test, I am quite qualified >to address this malignancy, without standing to be accused as either >having a low self-esteem or a high one. >The same person can be in a good place or in a bad place depending on >time, situation, social climate, decisions, etc. I’ve been up & down >(as has been my self-esteem) and so have most of the people I know. If >anything, if my experience is to be any guide, it’s when you’re down >that you most need to feel loved. >What is self-esteem? It is how a person feels about himself or herself. >And that of course can be a function of a million variables. The same >people who did well in 1960s did terribly in 1980s. The same character >that does well in one time does badly in another. And the same of >course is true among different geographical locations; professions; >belief structures; and everything else. >Now when I come out and tell the truth on this subject, I get >confronted with grating hypocrisy and malice. If you’re a man, in a bad >place, who badly needs love, then you are needy & need to pull yourself >up by the bootstraps. If you’re a man going with a woman who is in a >bad place, then you are a predator. >It is to be said that if you are a woman going with a man who is in a >bad place – or if you are a woman in a bad place going with a man – you >do not encounter this idiocy, but rather "concern" and "protection" >when of course the above had been utterly missing when the woman >actually needed it. >It is to be said likewise that the above takes place under the pretense >of feminism and its belief in equality between men and women, while in >fact containing some of the most patronizing, most chauvenistic, most >intellectually insulting attitudes that have been expressed in recent >society – a pretense and a belief that can only lead to "protection of >women for their own good" and the ensuing deprivation of them of all >meaningful rights and liberties. >So if you seek for love when you most need it – or seek to offer love >to someone who needs it likewise – you come under attack. >I am of the belief that this meme was created by the predatory >psychologists and distributed through the culture, in order that >millions of dollars pour into the pockets of those who feed on human >misery & prevent people from living for years upon years that they are >under their "care." >Ilya Shambat.

There are a lot of things that are fed to the public, that are unfair and downright ‘lies’ – and we have to put up with it. But living with such a mess of illogic and confusion can make life and living so much harder here when people cannot tell right from wrong and are purposefully confused. How do you know something is truthful and correct? Harvey

Response:

ibshambat2…@hotmail.com wrote: > Lori L. Koonce wrote: > > Iilya > > May I ask a few questions? > > First of all what does any of this have to do with hypnosis?

Nothing.  He just thinks that everything he says sounds profound. Too much alcohol will also bring this state on. > > And second of all it seems as if you believe that all mental illness is > > the fault of outside forces that we cannot control. > I’m not talking about "mental illness." I’m talking about how a concept > from psychology has been misused for evil ends.

Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by sheer stupidity. > > What do you say to a person like me, who has a mental health condition > > that is due to a serious chemical imbalance. > Take your meds.

What a cruel man you are, Shambat! How do you face yourself in the mirror without puking? Clearly, yours are the words of a man with NO self esteem. > > Who do you blame in this case? > Who talked about blaming anyone?

You apparently haven’t been reading what you write. Too much alcohol will also bring THAT mental state about. > > Not everything under the sun can be blamed on other people. > What yanked your chain, lady?

See?  I already told you the same thing!  This isn’t about people having their chains yanked – it’s about the inappropriate concusions you reach being questioned. I fully understand why you feel THREATENED by that. Too bad – it is, after all, YOUR misconceptions, causing this. > Read what I wrote before hanging on me > such stereotypes.

But you’re EASY to stereotype, Shambat! So EASY! Who can resist?

Response:

One of the most evil ideas to have come out of psychology has been that one needs to have good self-esteem in order to have relationships. As someone who has scored medium on self-esteem test, I am quite qualified to address this malignancy, without standing to be accused as either having a low self-esteem or a high one. The same person can be in a good place or in a bad place depending on time, situation, social climate, decisions, etc. I’ve been up & down (as has been my self-esteem) and so have most of the people I know. If anything, if my experience is to be any guide, it’s when you’re down that you most need to feel loved. What is self-esteem? It is how a person feels about himself or herself. And that of course can be a function of a million variables. The same people who did well in 1960s did terribly in 1980s. The same character that does well in one time does badly in another. And the same of course is true among different geographical locations; professions; belief structures; and everything else. Now when I come out and tell the truth on this subject, I get confronted with grating hypocrisy and malice. If you’re a man, in a bad place, who badly needs love, then you are needy & need to pull yourself up by the bootstraps. If you’re a man going with a woman who is in a bad place, then you are a predator. It is to be said that if you are a woman going with a man who is in a bad place – or if you are a woman in a bad place going with a man – you do not encounter this idiocy, but rather "concern" and "protection" when of course the above had been utterly missing when the woman actually needed it. It is to be said likewise that the above takes place under the pretense of feminism and its belief in equality between men and women, while in fact containing some of the most patronizing, most chauvenistic, most intellectually insulting attitudes that have been expressed in recent society – a pretense and a belief that can only lead to "protection of women for their own good" and the ensuing deprivation of them of all meaningful rights and liberties. So if you seek for love when you most need it – or seek to offer love to someone who needs it likewise – you come under attack. I am of the belief that this meme was created by the predatory psychologists and distributed through the culture, in order that millions of dollars pour into the pockets of those who feed on human misery & prevent people from living for years upon years that they are under their "care." Ilya Shambat.

Response:

no matter what anybody has done, Jislam has done worse times 10

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Shortly after occupying the Al-Watan TV station, the Israeli forces began broadcasting pornography over its transmitter. Palestinian TV stations broadcast pornography every day. Over and over and over and .. Jews and the White Slave Trade by Dr. William Pierce Steven Spielberg’s pseudo-historical film about a 19th-century mutiny and massacre aboard a Spanish slave ship, Amistad, and the subsequent trial of the Black mutineers is being praised by the reviewers. Spielberg, one of the wealthiest and most successful of Hollywood’s Jewish film makers, is also being praised by his kinsmen in various so-called "human rights" organizations for using his propaganda skills to sensitize White, Gentile audiences to the horrors of slavery and make them feel just a little more guilty for treating non-Whites so badly in the past. What the film doesn’t mention, of course, is that Spielberg’s Jewish kinsmen owned many, though not all, of the ships involved in the 18th- and 19th-century Atlantic trade in Black slaves and, in fact, played a very prominent role in bringing Black slaves to America. The film tends to steer one away from blaming anyone for slavery except White Gentiles. This bit of misdirection is interesting in light of the fact that Jews have been dominant in the slave trade since at least Roman times — especially the trade in White slaves. Jewish slave dealers followed Caesar’s armies everywhere — into Gaul, into Germany, and into other northern lands — eager to buy as slaves all of the captives of the Romans — especially the female captives. Jews have remained dominant in the White slave trade until the present day — although during the Middle Ages the Christian Church tried unsuccessfully a number of times to stop them, beginning in the fifth century with an edict by the emperor Theodosius II against Jews owning Christian slaves. After being banned from owning or dealing in slaves by one emperor, the Jews would wait until the next emperor came along, then they would buy a charter giving them a monopoly in the slave trade. Then public outrage against the Jews would grow until another emperor would ban their slave-dealing again. Most of the time, however, the Jews were the undisputed masters of the White slave trade, and that is still the case today. Interestingly enough, this fact was revealed in a recent news report in the Jewish newspaper the New York Times, of all places. The January 11 issue has a major article titled "Contraband Women" and written by a Jewish reporter in Israel. The article deals specifically with the Jewish trade in Ukrainian and Russian women — although it doesn’t label the trade as "Jewish." What the report does say is this: Centered in Moscow and the Ukrainian capital Kiev, the networks trafficking women run east to Japan and Thailand, where thousands of young Slavic women now work against their will as prostitutes, and west to the Adriatic coast and beyond. The routes are controlled by Russian crime gangs based in Moscow. What the reader must understand is that these crime gangs don’t have a real Russian in them. They are entirely Jewish, but the agreed-upon subterfuge used by the newspapers in this country is to refer to them as "Russian" rather than as Jewish. Thus one reads in various news organs about the recent takeover of organized crime in many areas of America — especially the East Coast and Los Angeles — by "Russian gangs" and of the viciousness and cleverness of these "Russian" gangsters, but there is never any mention of the fact that they are not Russians at all, but Jews from the former Soviet Union: Jews like Mr. Clinton’s supporter Vadim Rabinovich, photographed shaking hands with Clinton at a Miami fundraiser when he was illegally in the United States, as I mentioned in my broadcast of December 27, 1997. The story of the exploitation of eastern Europe by the Jews is a fascinating and infuriating story. Throughout the Middle Ages and into the modern era they focused on profiting from the weaknesses and vices of the Gentile populations of Poles, Russians, Ukrainians and others among whom they lived as a barely tolerated minority. In addition to being the moneylenders, they controlled the liquor business and owned the drinking establishments, the gambling dens, and the brothels. A number of 19th-century Russian writers, among them Dostoievski and Gogol, have described their destructive effects on Slavic peasant society and the perpetual condition of mutual hostility which existed between the Jews and the Slavs. During the 19th and early 20th centuries the Jewish trade in White slaves from these lands expanded enormously. It has been described by the Jewish historian Edward Bristow in his 1982 book Prostitution and Prejudice, published by Oxford University Press and Schocken Books in New York. Although Bristow’s book is written from the viewpoint of one opposed to this Jewish trade in women, it is nevertheless enormously revealing. The Jews recruited peasant girls in Polish and Russian villages, usually under false pretenses, and transported them to brothels in Turkey, Egypt, and other parts of the Middle East; to Vienna, Budapest, and other major cities in the Austro-Hungarian Empire; and as far away as New York, New Orleans, and Buenos Aires. This Jewish trade in Slavic women naturally caused a great deal of hatred against the Jews by the Slavs, and this hatred broke out in pogroms and other popular actions against the Jews over and over again. One would believe from the works of Mr. Spielberg and other Jewish propagandists that the hatred the Slavs bore against the Jews was based only on religious bigotry and that the Jews were completely innocent and inoffensive. One fascinating fact which Bristow’s book reveals is that the center of the Jewish trade in Polish girls was in a little town called Oswiecim. The German name for this town was Auschwitz. I don’t mean to imply that the Jews were the only ones at fault in the White slave trade. Gentile politicians and police officials gladly accepted bribes from the Jews and in return allowed them to carry on their dirty business. And in the United States non-Jewish criminal elements such as the Mafia collaborated with the Jews or ran their own White slave operations. But the trade in White slaves from eastern Europe has been an exclusively Jewish activity for the last 200 years. It is ironic that another Jewish enterprise, organized Marxism, put a temporary crimp in the Jewish trade in Slavic women. When the Jewish Bolsheviks seized control of Russia and Ukraine after the First World War, and of Poland and other Slavic lands after the Second World War, they clamped down on all capitalist activity, including that of their Jewish brethren in the White slave business. What they did instead was establish a huge empire of slave-labor camps, of which Alexander Solzhenitsyn has written so eloquently. Jewish slave dealers became commissars and slave camp bosses. And of course, they butchered their Gentile opponents by the millions. The time of communism was the Jews’ time for getting rid of all of the Russian and Ukrainian patriots, who had hated them for so long. Actually, some capitalist activity did survive throughout the communist years in the form of organized crime. Two excellent books on the subject were published in the United States, both written by Soviet Jews thoroughly familiar with organized crime in the Soviet Union. In fact, one of the authors, Yuri Brokhin, was a former member of a Jewish organized crime gang in Russia, where he worked as a pimp. His book, Hustling on Gorky Street, was published in 1975 by Dial Press. The other author, Konstantin Simis, was a Jewish defense lawyer for organized Jewish criminals. His book, USSR: The Corrupt Society, was published in 1982 by Simon and Schuster. Both of these Jewish authors write quite frankly about the Jewish domination of organized crime during the communist years. Brokhin brags about it, in fact. He says Russians and other Slavs can only be ordinary criminals, depending on guns and strong-arm tactics, but they aren’t smart enough for successful, large-scale organized crime; only Jews are smart enough for that. A factor neither author mentions which was more important than smartness was the connections Jewish criminals had with Jewish communists in the Soviet bureaucracy. When Abe, who ran a prostitution and drug racket in Moscow, could count on his cousin Hymie in the prosecutor’s office to keep him informed about police plans for raids, as well as a little covert assistance if matters ever came to court, he had a distinct advantage over his Russian competitors. Eventually communism bled eastern Europe dry, and with the economies of the countries under their control on the verge of collapse the communists switched hats, declared themselves "democrats" instead of communists, and announced a return to capitalism. The Jewish slave dealers went back into business, and business was good for them. Other Jewish communists went into business too. As the economies were "privatized" — that is, as state-owned factories and businesses were sold to private entrepreneurs at bargain-basement prices — Jews used their connections with their now-"democratic" kinsmen in the bureaucracies to

… read more »

Response:

Jews and the White Slave Trade by Dr. William Pierce Pierce is the author of "The Turner Diaries." Its protagonist, a terrorism motivated by racism, was the model for Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber.

Another own goal for the Alwaffle Entity. Boy what a loser.

Response:

Jews and the White Slave Trade by Dr. William Pierce

Pierce is the author of "The Turner Diaries." Its protagonist, a terrorism motivated by racism, was the model for Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber.

Response:

Jews and the White Slave Trade by Dr. William Pierce

<snip crap Nazi-sympathiser Dr William Pierce  judges people not by their character or performance, but solely by race.  Pierce is as much a threat to Free Speech as any Muslim.

Response:

Jews and the White Slave Trade by Dr. William Pierce <snip crap Nazi-sympathiser Dr William Pierce  judges people not by their character or performance, but solely by race.

Are jews a race? Hitler and the nazis used to tell that, but was them right? Are you sure? We are an impossibility in an impossible universe. Ray Bradbury

Response:

Shortly after occupying the Al-Watan TV station, the Israeli forces began broadcasting pornography over its transmitter.

Palestinian TV stations broadcast pornography every day. Over and over and over and .. *****  Oderint dum metuant! *****

Response:

Shortly after occupying the Al-Watan TV station, the Israeli forces began broadcasting pornography over its transmitter. Palestinian TV stations broadcast pornography every day. Over and over and over and ..

Jews and the White Slave Trade by Dr. William Pierce Steven Spielberg’s pseudo-historical film about a 19th-century mutiny and massacre aboard a Spanish slave ship, Amistad, and the subsequent trial of the Black mutineers is being praised by the reviewers. Spielberg, one of the wealthiest and most successful of Hollywood’s Jewish film makers, is also being praised by his kinsmen in various so-called "human rights" organizations for using his propaganda skills to sensitize White, Gentile audiences to the horrors of slavery and make them feel just a little more guilty for treating non-Whites so badly in the past. What the film doesn’t mention, of course, is that Spielberg’s Jewish kinsmen owned many, though not all, of the ships involved in the 18th- and 19th-century Atlantic trade in Black slaves and, in fact, played a very prominent role in bringing Black slaves to America. The film tends to steer one away from blaming anyone for slavery except White Gentiles. This bit of misdirection is interesting in light of the fact that Jews have been dominant in the slave trade since at least Roman times — especially the trade in White slaves. Jewish slave dealers followed Caesar’s armies everywhere — into Gaul, into Germany, and into other northern lands — eager to buy as slaves all of the captives of the Romans — especially the female captives. Jews have remained dominant in the White slave trade until the present day — although during the Middle Ages the Christian Church tried unsuccessfully a number of times to stop them, beginning in the fifth century with an edict by the emperor Theodosius II against Jews owning Christian slaves. After being banned from owning or dealing in slaves by one emperor, the Jews would wait until the next emperor came along, then they would buy a charter giving them a monopoly in the slave trade. Then public outrage against the Jews would grow until another emperor would ban their slave-dealing again. Most of the time, however, the Jews were the undisputed masters of the White slave trade, and that is still the case today. Interestingly enough, this fact was revealed in a recent news report in the Jewish newspaper the New York Times, of all places. The January 11 issue has a major article titled "Contraband Women" and written by a Jewish reporter in Israel. The article deals specifically with the Jewish trade in Ukrainian and Russian women — although it doesn’t label the trade as "Jewish." What the report does say is this: Centered in Moscow and the Ukrainian capital Kiev, the networks trafficking women run east to Japan and Thailand, where thousands of young Slavic women now work against their will as prostitutes, and west to the Adriatic coast and beyond. The routes are controlled by Russian crime gangs based in Moscow. What the reader must understand is that these crime gangs don’t have a real Russian in them. They are entirely Jewish, but the agreed-upon subterfuge used by the newspapers in this country is to refer to them as "Russian" rather than as Jewish. Thus one reads in various news organs about the recent takeover of organized crime in many areas of America — especially the East Coast and Los Angeles — by "Russian gangs" and of the viciousness and cleverness of these "Russian" gangsters, but there is never any mention of the fact that they are not Russians at all, but Jews from the former Soviet Union: Jews like Mr. Clinton’s supporter Vadim Rabinovich, photographed shaking hands with Clinton at a Miami fundraiser when he was illegally in the United States, as I mentioned in my broadcast of December 27, 1997. The story of the exploitation of eastern Europe by the Jews is a fascinating and infuriating story. Throughout the Middle Ages and into the modern era they focused on profiting from the weaknesses and vices of the Gentile populations of Poles, Russians, Ukrainians and others among whom they lived as a barely tolerated minority. In addition to being the moneylenders, they controlled the liquor business and owned the drinking establishments, the gambling dens, and the brothels. A number of 19th-century Russian writers, among them Dostoievski and Gogol, have described their destructive effects on Slavic peasant society and the perpetual condition of mutual hostility which existed between the Jews and the Slavs. During the 19th and early 20th centuries the Jewish trade in White slaves from these lands expanded enormously. It has been described by the Jewish historian Edward Bristow in his 1982 book Prostitution and Prejudice, published by Oxford University Press and Schocken Books in New York. Although Bristow’s book is written from the viewpoint of one opposed to this Jewish trade in women, it is nevertheless enormously revealing. The Jews recruited peasant girls in Polish and Russian villages, usually under false pretenses, and transported them to brothels in Turkey, Egypt, and other parts of the Middle East; to Vienna, Budapest, and other major cities in the Austro-Hungarian Empire; and as far away as New York, New Orleans, and Buenos Aires. This Jewish trade in Slavic women naturally caused a great deal of hatred against the Jews by the Slavs, and this hatred broke out in pogroms and other popular actions against the Jews over and over again. One would believe from the works of Mr. Spielberg and other Jewish propagandists that the hatred the Slavs bore against the Jews was based only on religious bigotry and that the Jews were completely innocent and inoffensive. One fascinating fact which Bristow’s book reveals is that the center of the Jewish trade in Polish girls was in a little town called Oswiecim. The German name for this town was Auschwitz. I don’t mean to imply that the Jews were the only ones at fault in the White slave trade. Gentile politicians and police officials gladly accepted bribes from the Jews and in return allowed them to carry on their dirty business. And in the United States non-Jewish criminal elements such as the Mafia collaborated with the Jews or ran their own White slave operations. But the trade in White slaves from eastern Europe has been an exclusively Jewish activity for the last 200 years. It is ironic that another Jewish enterprise, organized Marxism, put a temporary crimp in the Jewish trade in Slavic women. When the Jewish Bolsheviks seized control of Russia and Ukraine after the First World War, and of Poland and other Slavic lands after the Second World War, they clamped down on all capitalist activity, including that of their Jewish brethren in the White slave business. What they did instead was establish a huge empire of slave-labor camps, of which Alexander Solzhenitsyn has written so eloquently. Jewish slave dealers became commissars and slave camp bosses. And of course, they butchered their Gentile opponents by the millions. The time of communism was the Jews’ time for getting rid of all of the Russian and Ukrainian patriots, who had hated them for so long. Actually, some capitalist activity did survive throughout the communist years in the form of organized crime. Two excellent books on the subject were published in the United States, both written by Soviet Jews thoroughly familiar with organized crime in the Soviet Union. In fact, one of the authors, Yuri Brokhin, was a former member of a Jewish organized crime gang in Russia, where he worked as a pimp. His book, Hustling on Gorky Street, was published in 1975 by Dial Press. The other author, Konstantin Simis, was a Jewish defense lawyer for organized Jewish criminals. His book, USSR: The Corrupt Society, was published in 1982 by Simon and Schuster. Both of these Jewish authors write quite frankly about the Jewish domination of organized crime during the communist years. Brokhin brags about it, in fact. He says Russians and other Slavs can only be ordinary criminals, depending on guns and strong-arm tactics, but they aren’t smart enough for successful, large-scale organized crime; only Jews are smart enough for that. A factor neither author mentions which was more important than smartness was the connections Jewish criminals had with Jewish communists in the Soviet bureaucracy. When Abe, who ran a prostitution and drug racket in Moscow, could count on his cousin Hymie in the prosecutor’s office to keep him informed about police plans for raids, as well as a little covert assistance if matters ever came to court, he had a distinct advantage over his Russian competitors. Eventually communism bled eastern Europe dry, and with the economies of the countries under their control on the verge of collapse the communists switched hats, declared themselves "democrats" instead of communists, and announced a return to capitalism. The Jewish slave dealers went back into business, and business was good for them. Other Jewish communists went into business too. As the economies were "privatized" — that is, as state-owned factories and businesses were sold to private entrepreneurs at bargain-basement prices — Jews used their connections with their now-"democratic" kinsmen in the bureaucracies to snap them up. Other Jews, who had monopolized organized crime during the communist years, remained as organized crime bosses but greatly expanded the scope of their operations. Often, the new entrepreneurs and the new crime bosses are the same people. The richest man in Russia today is Boris Berezovsky, who since the collapse of communism has become a multi-billionaire by buying up banks, television networks, and newspapers from the government, with the aid of his fellow Jews still in … read more »

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Pornography is, in other words, one of the weapons which ‘Jews with an atavistic fear of Christian authority’ have turned to to weaken the dominant culture in a country and, thereby, assure that the Jews, always a minority, will go unmolested by their ‘Christian’ neighbors. The Israelis have recently shown themselves well-versed in what one could call the military use of pornography. At 4:30 PM on March 30, 2002, Israeli military forces took over Palestinian TV stations when they occupied Ramallah in the West Bank, immediately shutting them down. What followed was a little more unusual. Shortly after occupying the Al-Watan TV station, the Israeli forces began broadcasting pornography over its transmitter. Eventually, according to a report from The Advertiser, an Australian newspaper, the Israelis expanded their cultural offensive against the Palestinian people by broadcasting pornography over two other Palestinian stations, the Ammwaj and Al-Sharaq channels. One 52-year-old Palestinian mother of three children, according to the report in the The Advertiser, complained about ‘the deliberate psychological damage caused by these broadcasts.’ The only Palestinian station not taken over by the Israelis ran a written message at the bottom of its screen claiming that ‘Anything currently shown on Al-Watan and other local TV channels has nothing to do with Palestinian programs but is being broadcast by the Israeli occupation forces. We urge parents to take precautions.’ In addition to being outraged, the Palestinians were bewildered. ‘Why in the world,’ one correspondent to Omanforum.com wondered, ’should one do such a thing?’ If we turn to the dominant culture for an answer, we can only become more confused because according to dominant culture’s explanation, pornography means freedom. So making use of the hermeneutic provided by the dominant culture in films like Boogie Nights and The People vs. Larry Flynt, Israeli troops began broadcasting pornography over captured Palestinian TV stations because they wanted to spread freedom among the Palestinian people. Somehow that doesn’t sound right. The simple fact of the matter is that this incident simply cannot be explained according to the principles available in contemporary American culture. In order to understand the disparity between the official explanation of pornography and what might be termed its military use, we have to go back to the ancients. The story of the Palestinian TV stations broadcasting pornography has a curiously Biblical ring to it. Having learned their lesson, the Israelis decided to turn the tables on their opponents, because they knew that a blind opponent is no opponent at all, and because they knew – as the ancient Greeks knew – that lust makes a man blind. St. Thomas Aquinas, giving voice to that same tradition over a millennium later said that lust ‘darkens the mind.’ Suddenly, Israel’s use of pornography in their battle against the Palestinians isn’t so inexplicable anymore because a blind opponent is a weak opponent. A blind opponent is no opponent at all.

Shame….

Response:

Pornography is, in other words, one of the weapons which ‘Jews with an atavistic fear of Christian authority’ have turned to to weaken the dominant culture in a country and, thereby, assure that the Jews, always a minority, will go unmolested by their ‘Christian’ neighbors. The Israelis have recently shown themselves well-versed in what one could call the military use of pornography. At 4:30 PM on March 30, 2002, Israeli military forces took over Palestinian TV stations when they occupied Ramallah in the West Bank, immediately shutting them down. What followed was a little more unusual. Shortly after occupying the Al-Watan TV station, the Israeli forces began broadcasting pornography over its transmitter. Eventually, according to a report from The Advertiser, an Australian newspaper, the Israelis expanded their cultural offensive against the Palestinian people by broadcasting pornography over two other Palestinian stations, the Ammwaj and Al-Sharaq channels. One 52-year-old Palestinian mother of three children, according to the report in the The Advertiser, complained about ‘the deliberate psychological damage caused by these broadcasts.’ The only Palestinian station not taken over by the Israelis ran a written message at the bottom of its screen claiming that ‘Anything currently shown on Al-Watan and other local TV channels has nothing to do with Palestinian programs but is being broadcast by the Israeli occupation forces. We urge parents to take precautions.’ In addition to being outraged, the Palestinians were bewildered. ‘Why in the world,’ one correspondent to Omanforum.com wondered, ’should one do such a thing?’ If we turn to the dominant culture for an answer, we can only become more confused because according to dominant culture’s explanation, pornography means freedom. So making use of the hermeneutic provided by the dominant culture in films like Boogie Nights and The People vs. Larry Flynt, Israeli troops began broadcasting pornography over captured Palestinian TV stations because they wanted to spread freedom among the Palestinian people. Somehow that doesn’t sound right. The simple fact of the matter is that this incident simply cannot be explained according to the principles available in contemporary American culture. In order to understand the disparity between the official explanation of pornography and what might be termed its military use, we have to go back to the ancients. The story of the Palestinian TV stations broadcasting pornography has a curiously Biblical ring to it. Having learned their lesson, the Israelis decided to turn the tables on their opponents, because they knew that a blind opponent is no opponent at all, and because they knew – as the ancient Greeks knew – that lust makes a man blind. St. Thomas Aquinas, giving voice to that same tradition over a millennium later said that lust ‘darkens the mind.’ Suddenly, Israel’s use of pornography in their battle against the Palestinians isn’t so inexplicable anymore because a blind opponent is a weak opponent. A blind opponent is no opponent at all. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – cool

Response:

Check out a company called Geotel — symbol ‘gte’  - they are making such a stratlycite’ ?  Good idea.. an excellent method to infiltrate the muslimoids.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Israelis military use of pornography Pornography is, in other words, one of the weapons which ‘Jews with an … Israeli forces began broadcasting pornography over its transmitter. I actually like the idea, I had even thought of doing it several years ago as a way to shock the sexually-repressed muzlimoids into the 21st century.  While they hide their women under opaque shapeless burqas, our women wear clothes they would consider obscene and porn is as common as french fries in modern America.  In fact, just today at work a visiting vendor showed us his latest porno on his laptop – we all just stood there and watched, it wasn’t anything that would shock us and we all enjoyed watching it. I think we should start doing this, maybe by purchasing a small fleet of AWAC-type planes that would transmit video rather than radar signals, flying just high enough above muzlimoid countries to avoid being shot down and broadcasting hardcore porn on every VHF and UHF frequency, jamming local stations if necessary to cut in with porn. But at the same time we need to offer other stuff, like Radio Free America propaganda or even just normal non-religious educational programming (I imagine Sesame Street by itself might be enough to cause an izlamist society to collapse). Oh, and I think one could use very inexpensive hydrogen balloons equipped with inexpensive off-the-shelf components, power it with a flexible solar cell fabric that covers the exterior of the balloon, and be able to broadcast a decent signal over a very large area.  A cheap DVR would supply dozens or even hundreds of hours of program content.  Make them cheap enough so that even modest contributions in the $10,000+ range could fund an entire fleet of such balloons, for a reign of video subversion lasting weeks or even months.  Aside from porn, what would y’all include from our culture that might help destroy izlamoid ideology?

Response:

Have you checked out the graphics on my web-page, Abu Alfalfa?  The one near the bottom of this particular page will explain everything: — &#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1578;&#1576;&#1585;&#1580;&#1577; &#1582;&#1610;&#1585; &#1605;&#1606; &#1575;&#1604;&#1573;&#1585;&#1607;&#1575;&#1576;&#1610; &#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1606;&#1578;&#1581;&#1585; Murderers are not martyrs!    http://symbolictruth.fateback.com/abulwafa.htm

Response:

Israelis military use of pornography Pornography is, in other words, one of the weapons which ‘Jews with an … Israeli forces began broadcasting pornography over its transmitter.

I actually like the idea, I had even thought of doing it several years ago as a way to shock the sexually-repressed muzlimoids into the 21st century.  While they hide their women under opaque shapeless burqas, our women wear clothes they would consider obscene and porn is as common as french fries in modern America.  In fact, just today at work a visiting vendor showed us his latest porno on his laptop – we all just stood there and watched, it wasn’t anything that would shock us and we all enjoyed watching it. I think we should start doing this, maybe by purchasing a small fleet of AWAC-type planes that would transmit video rather than radar signals, flying just high enough above muzlimoid countries to avoid being shot down and broadcasting hardcore porn on every VHF and UHF frequency, jamming local stations if necessary to cut in with porn. But at the same time we need to offer other stuff, like Radio Free America propaganda or even just normal non-religious educational programming (I imagine Sesame Street by itself might be enough to cause an izlamist society to collapse). Oh, and I think one could use very inexpensive hydrogen balloons equipped with inexpensive off-the-shelf components, power it with a flexible solar cell fabric that covers the exterior of the balloon, and be able to broadcast a decent signal over a very large area.  A cheap DVR would supply dozens or even hundreds of hours of program content.  Make them cheap enough so that even modest contributions in the $10,000+ range could fund an entire fleet of such balloons, for a reign of video subversion lasting weeks or even months.  Aside from porn, what would y’all include from our culture that might help destroy izlamoid ideology?

Response:

Israelis military use of pornography Pornography is, in other words, one of the weapons which ‘Jews with an atavistic fear of Christian authority’ have turned to weaken the dominant culture in a country and, thereby, assure that the Jews, always a minority, will go unmolested by their ‘Christian’ neighbors. The Israelis have recently shown themselves well-versed in what one could call the military use of pornography. At 4:30 PM on March 30, 2002, Israeli military forces took over Palestinian TV stations when they occupied Ramallah in the West Bank, immediately shutting them down. What followed was a little more unusual. Shortly after occupying the Al-Watan TV station, the Israeli forces began broadcasting pornography over its transmitter. Eventually, according to a report from The Advertiser, an Australian newspaper, the Israelis expanded their cultural offensive against the Palestinian people by broadcasting pornography over two other Palestinian stations, the Ammwaj and Al-Sharaq channels. One 52-year-old Palestinian mother of three children, according to the report in the The Advertiser, complained about ‘the deliberate psychological damage caused by these broadcasts.’ The only Palestinian station not taken over by the Israelis ran a written message at the bottom of its screen claiming that ‘Anything currently shown on Al-Watan and other local TV channels has nothing to do with Palestinian programs but is being broadcast by the Israeli occupation forces. We urge parents to take precautions.’ In addition to being outraged, the Palestinians were bewildered. ‘Why in the world,’ one correspondent to Omanforum.com wondered, ’should one do such a thing?’ If we turn to the dominant culture for an answer, we can only become more confused because according to dominant culture’s explanation, pornography means freedom. So making use of the hermeneutic provided by the dominant culture in films like Boogie Nights and The People vs. Larry Flynt, Israeli troops began broadcasting pornography over captured Palestinian TV stations because they wanted to spread freedom among the Palestinian people. Somehow that doesn’t sound right. The simple fact of the matter is that this incident simply cannot be explained according to the principles available in contemporary American culture. In order to understand the disparity between the official explanation of pornography and what might be termed its military use, we have to go back to the ancients. The story of the Palestinian TV stations broadcasting pornography has a curiously Biblical ring to it. Having learned their lesson, the Israelis decided to turn the tables on their opponents, because they knew that a blind opponent is no opponent at all, and because they knew – as the ancient Greeks knew – that lust makes a man blind. St. Thomas Aquinas, giving voice to that same tradition over a millennium later said that lust ‘darkens the mind.’ Suddenly, Israel’s use of pornography in their battle against the Palestinians isn’t so inexplicable anymore because a blind opponent is a weak opponent. A blind opponent is no opponent at all.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Breaking News Iran warns Israel over al-Aqsa mosque More details will follow Faris, what will Moslems do with "al-Aqsa mosque" when, God willing, the Holy Temple is restored in its place? It is important to note that Zev is talking about an interpretaion of the bible which the majority of Christians over the years have not held to. That in itself does not make it wrong, but please note that its popularity is quite recent. Alan Cossey

I suppose even Christians who have no problem with the Children of Israel returning to their ancient homeland, have trouble with a restoration of the Temple, which would naturally include the laws which Jesus has made unnecessary and therefore undesired by God. This is not the belief of the Jewish People.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Breaking News Iran warns Israel over al-Aqsa mosque More details will follow Faris, what will Moslems do with "al-Aqsa mosque" when, God willing, the Holy Temple is restored in its place? It is important to note that Zev is talking about an interpretaion of the bible which the majority of Christians over the years have not held to. That in itself does not make it wrong, but please note that its popularity is quite recent. Alan Cossey I suppose even Christians who have no problem with the Children of Israel returning to their ancient homeland, have trouble with a restoration of the Temple, which would naturally include the laws which Jesus has made unnecessary and therefore undesired by God. This is not the belief of the Jewish People. I had assumed you were speaking as a Christian who believes that the restoration of Israel around 1948 was predicted by the bible. If I have got that wrong, my apologies. As for what such of my brother and sister Christians believe, there do seem to be some outlandish views. It has generally been understood until fairly recently, that promises of a return from exile or reaping the results of God’s promises either meant a return from the exile in Babylon (535BC onwards) or were meant in a more spiritual sense for the Christian church. As you say, Jesus has made sacrifices in the Temple no longer necessary, but some Christians believe they will be restarted. To me that seems, how shall I put it, erroneous and totally unnecessary. A return from exile by the Jewish people to the land of Israel/Palestine as (allegedly) foretold in the bible has clouded some of the rights and wrongs of what has been going on there. Alan

Strangely enough, Zionist leadership has always been full of atheists, although without the above Biblical Promise, the Jewish claim to Palestine would be more difficult. Legally, however, it makes no difference, after the Balfour declaration, and various decisions made in the League of Nations and the U.N. Zev

Response:

Breaking News Iran warns Israel over al-Aqsa mosque More details will follow Faris, what will Moslems do with "al-Aqsa mosque" when, God willing, the Holy Temple is restored in its place?

It is important to note that Zev is talking about an interpretaion of the bible which the majority of Christians over the years have not held to. That in itself does not make it wrong, but please note that its popularity is quite recent. Alan Cossey

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Breaking News Iran warns Israel over al-Aqsa mosque More details will follow Faris, what will Moslems do with "al-Aqsa mosque" when, God willing, the Holy Temple is restored in its place? It is important to note that Zev is talking about an interpretaion of the bible which the majority of Christians over the years have not held to. That in itself does not make it wrong, but please note that its popularity is quite recent. Alan Cossey I suppose even Christians who have no problem with the Children of Israel returning to their ancient homeland, have trouble with a restoration of the Temple, which would naturally include the laws which Jesus has made unnecessary and therefore undesired by God. This is not the belief of the Jewish People.

I had assumed you were speaking as a Christian who believes that the restoration of Israel around 1948 was predicted by the bible. If I have got that wrong, my apologies. As for what such of my brother and sister Christians believe, there do seem to be some outlandish views. It has generally been understood until fairly recently, that promises of a return from exile or reaping the results of God’s promises either meant a return from the exile in Babylon (535BC onwards) or were meant in a more spiritual sense for the Christian church. As you say, Jesus has made sacrifices in the Temple no longer necessary, but some Christians believe they will be restarted. To me that seems, how shall I put it, erroneous and totally unnecessary. A return from exile by the Jewish people to the land of Israel/Palestine as (allegedly) foretold in the bible has clouded some of the rights and wrongs of what has been going on there. Alan

Response:

 The dome of the crock will be no more..

Response:

Iran wouldn’t have a snowball’s chance in hell against Israel. Why are you so fucking stupid? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Breaking News Iran warns Israel over al-Aqsa mosque     More details will follow

Response:

Breaking News Iran warns Israel over al-Aqsa mosque More details will follow

Faris, what will Moslems do with "al-Aqsa mosque" when, God willing, the Holy Temple is restored in its place?

Response:

Hmm, iran is next …isn’t it? of course they’ll have to worry about earthquakes too…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Breaking News Iran warns Israel over al-Aqsa mosque More details will follow

Response:

Breaking News Iran warns Israel over al-Aqsa mosque     More details will follow

Response:

I had failed for 15 months to find a local support group for low carb. However, I have discovered a group with zillions of chapters that meet once a week.  It is non-profit and only costs $20 to join.  http://www.tops.org/ They do not mind a person doing low carb. This is a very old organization.

As far as I know they are a spin-off from Overeaters Anonymous so they are a 12-step group.  12-step groups are some of the best support groups around.  I’ve read that OA has a better 5-year retention rate than any other system including WW. This makes sense given that they preach you need to come weekly for the rest of your life. Half of my local group is composed of women who are 70 years old, or older.  The group is very much in need of new blood.  24 members locally.  They are all women except for the one man that is the leader of the group.  He begged me to stay.

Chuckle.  They didn’t one of the women take charge? They have several recitations that have a religious tone to them.

Consistant with a 12-step program.  They don’t require any particular religion but anyone in a non-Christian religion who is not in complete comfort with their own faith is likely to find the fact that they are majority Christians a source of discomfort.  Christians tend to think that anyone religious or spiritual must also be Christian.  Part of being in the majority and therefore not exposed to variety I suspect. The 12th step goes something like "Having undergone a spiritual reawakening as a result of our efforts, we go out into the world to help others who are suffering from our affliction."  12 steps groups pray at most of their mettings. The theme seemed to be confessing their emotional eating….  (Not something I believe in.)

Don’t only see it on the surface.  These folks have a chance to spend year after year working through any emotional issue they have with the help of the group. Being at OA/TOPS their emotional issues tend to come out through emotional eating. I think the Peter Principle could be twisted to apply to the members.

That’s one way of looking at it.  In AA the ones who are able to do the 13th step are really the ones who weren’t addicted in the first place.  So you need to still have issues to think it worth going.  But is that a bad thing?  Fumbling through is still working your issues. They have a subgroup called "KOPS" at the meeting, who are members who are at their goal weight.  Of 5 KOPS members, four were visibly quite overweight, and the fifth looked anorexic.  I guess the four set high goal weights.

Chuckle. Despite the failings, I think the group has potential.   They claim over 300,000 members, so there may be more to the organization than I’m seeing in the local group.

Yup. After the meeting they all go out to dinner.  That aspect seems self-defeating to me.  I skipped the dinner.

The most successfull dieters in the national registry (the folks that don’t ask questions that low carbers can answer) don’t skip meals.  So I suggest that as long as it was a light meal it actually helped ther long term adherence.  On the other hand if they did the common 12-step thing of having cake and ice cream I agree.

Response:

After the meeting they all go out to dinner.  That aspect seems self-defeating to me.  I skipped the dinner.

The TOPS group in my area has always done this. My mother-in-law used to own the only eatery in town. I got a kick out of the warning shout from the waitresses "TOPS is here." But their orders were usually one-egg broccoli and cheese omelets, one slice of homemade raisin toast (a must!), and one slice of bacon or sausage. A bowl of oatmeal here or there, but nobody ever went "whole-hog" and got a farmer’s breakfast (pancakes, eggs, meat, toast, homefries) or anything like that. TOPS is still going strong around here (right, Laurie?), ‘cept now they meet on Thursday nights. They still get together at the diner after, but I think the chicken caesar salad is the meal of choice. They seem like a fun bunch of gals. If I had to do it over again, I wouldn’t mind losing with them. Amy 168/115/…

Response:

Igor, You are probably right. While I’m a bit calorie restricted, I spend a lot of time thinking about food related subjects, such as nutrition and dieting, so the group can be part of that agenda. I’m curious about the group’s politics, given its national scope and 300,000 members.  Also, I have wondered if some younger women might pop in from time to time…. I feel I’ve mastered this dieting thing.  To properly showoff, I need an audience.  I’m far enough below the weight of my friends, that the topic of weightloss is now impolite.  Relatives are starting to worry that I am losing weight too fast.  I’m thinking this can be a new venue for talking about dieting.  My best information is online, but direct human interaction has a function too.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would be greatly surprised if such a social setting would be in any way helpful to you personally, given what I know about you.  Personally, I am getting all encouragement and advice from these newsgroups that I need. — 223/173.1/180

Response:

The group I belong to has a lot of fun too. Some of them go to lunch every Wednesday after the meeting and continue to have slow, steady weight losses each week. I’ve never gone to lunch with them because it’s not at a convenient time for me, but I see nothing wrong with it. — Cheri – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After the meeting they all go out to dinner.  That aspect seems self-defeating to me.  I skipped the dinner. The TOPS group in my area has always done this. My mother-in-law used to own the only eatery in town. I got a kick out of the warning shout from the waitresses "TOPS is here." But their orders were usually one-egg broccoli and cheese omelets, one slice of homemade raisin toast (a must!), and one slice of bacon or sausage. A bowl of oatmeal here or there, but nobody ever went "whole-hog" and got a farmer’s breakfast (pancakes, eggs, meat, toast, homefries) or anything like that. TOPS is still going strong around here (right, Laurie?), ‘cept now they meet on Thursday nights. They still get together at the diner after, but I think the chicken caesar salad is the meal of choice. They seem like a fun bunch of gals. If I had to do it over again, I wouldn’t mind losing with them. Amy 168/115/…

Response:

Cubit schreef: Igor, You are probably right. While I’m a bit calorie restricted, I spend a lot of time thinking about food related subjects, such as nutrition and dieting, so the group can be part of that agenda. I’m curious about the group’s politics, given its national scope

Better make that *inter*national scope. Don’t forget, it’s the *world* *wide* web! and 300,000 members.  Also, I have wondered if some younger women might pop in from time to time….

Sorry, I’m 49 (and happily married . I feel I’ve mastered this dieting thing.  To properly showoff, I need an audience.  I’m far enough below the weight of my friends, that the topic of weightloss is now impolite.  

Congratulations! Berna (101.5/75.5/~68 kg) — ( )_( ) Berna M. Bleeker-Slikker / http://www.volksliedjes.nl

Response:

   I was in TOPS for a while when I was dieting last year.  It was a very nice bunch of ladies, but I was uncomfortable with the whole set up myself.  They were all Christian church goers, I am agnostic.  The meeting were actually held in a church’s community room.  No one tried to convert me (I never mentioned my views on religion at all), but internally at least I still felt like an outsider.  The solemn chanting at the start and end of each meeting was pretty off putting to me.    I can see how the way this group is set up might be useful for some people, but it just wasn’t a good fit for me.     — Annie

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I had failed for 15 months to find a local support group for low carb. However, I have discovered a group with zillions of chapters that meet once a week.  It is non-profit and only costs $20 to join. http://www.tops.org/ They do not mind a person doing low carb. This is a very old organization.  Half of my local group is composed of women who are 70 years old, or older.  The group is very much in need of new blood.  24 members locally.  They are all women except for the one man that is the leader of the group.  He begged me to stay. They have several recitations that have a religious tone to them.  The theme seemed to be confessing their emotional eating….  (Not something I believe in.) I think the Peter Principle could be twisted to apply to the members. They have a subgroup called "KOPS" at the meeting, who are members who are at their goal weight.  Of 5 KOPS members, four were visibly quite overweight, and the fifth looked anorexic.  I guess the four set high goal weights. Despite the failings, I think the group has potential.   They claim over 300,000 members, so there may be more to the organization than I’m seeing in the local group. After the meeting they all go out to dinner.  That aspect seems self-defeating to me.  I skipped the dinner.

I’m not really familiar with them, but I do know that TOPS (Take Off Pounds Sensibly) has been around for many years. Dick Stephens

Response:

No they’re not. They were around before OA. It’s a good group, and inexpensive. You follow your own diet. However, as in any weight loss, your success or failure  is determined by yourself. — Cheri – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As far as I know they are a spin-off from Overeaters Anonymous so they are a 12-step group.  12-step groups are some of the best support groups around.  I’ve read that OA has a better 5-year retention rate than any other system including WW. This makes sense given that they preach you need to come weekly for the rest of your life.

Response:

Cubit’s experience made me laugh. Like I mentioned, I was in a TOPS group overseas (Germany)- one of the only weekly events for a military wife to go to. I met some KOPS and some gals on the rebound and some losers-mostly it was social for us. I’d say we all had a few sizes in the closet. Te organization did have a place in our community. some of those gals were desperate to lose weight and far from home. We all had a common interest. We never dined together but I did attend the annual convention in Bavaria (for us) and drove down with a former Top loser of the year who now drove with 2 serious bags of snacks next to her. It was memorable- I toured Hitler’s salt mine- I can’t remember a thing about the actual convention….only the Oreos that sat next to my fellow TOPSEE I got my own motivation since I had a new baby and took the weigh-ins seriously. It was a 1500 cal diet I was familiar with and lost 30 pounds.  I had a nice charm bracelet that was getting a lot of charms on it.  I threw it out a few years ago when I didn’t care about my weight. That event was nothing compared to now- keeping off 55 pounds the only way a dinner meeting would work would be if you were learning to eat out and keep to your plan. Not rationalize bad eating, or justify bad behavior. The only way I can be an inspiration now is to keep the pounds off for good. For that I won’t need to utter a word. Diane

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I had failed for 15 months to find a local support group for low carb. However, I have discovered a group with zillions of chapters that meet once a week.  It is non-profit and only costs $20 to join. http://www.tops.org/ They do not mind a person doing low carb. This is a very old organization.  Half of my local group is composed of women who are 70 years old, or older.  The group is very much in need of new blood.  24 members locally.  They are all women except for the one man that is the leader of the group.  He begged me to stay. They have several recitations that have a religious tone to them.  The theme seemed to be confessing their emotional eating….  (Not something I believe in.) I think the Peter Principle could be twisted to apply to the members. They have a subgroup called "KOPS" at the meeting, who are members who are at their goal weight.  Of 5 KOPS members, four were visibly quite overweight, and the fifth looked anorexic.  I guess the four set high goal weights. Despite the failings, I think the group has potential.   They claim over 300,000 members, so there may be more to the organization than I’m seeing in the local group. After the meeting they all go out to dinner.  That aspect seems self-defeating to me.  I skipped the dinner.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I had failed for 15 months to find a local support group for low carb. However, I have discovered a group with zillions of chapters that meet once a week.  It is non-profit and only costs $20 to join.  http://www.tops.org/ They do not mind a person doing low carb. This is a very old organization.  Half of my local group is composed of women who are 70 years old, or older.  The group is very much in need of new blood.  24 members locally.  They are all women except for the one man that is the leader of the group.  He begged me to stay. They have several recitations that have a religious tone to them.  The theme seemed to be confessing their emotional eating….  (Not something I believe in.) I think the Peter Principle could be twisted to apply to the members. They have a subgroup called "KOPS" at the meeting, who are members who are at their goal weight.  Of 5 KOPS members, four were visibly quite overweight, and the fifth looked anorexic.  I guess the four set high goal weights. Despite the failings, I think the group has potential.   They claim over 300,000 members, so there may be more to the organization than I’m seeing in the local group. After the meeting they all go out to dinner.  That aspect seems self-defeating to me.  I skipped the dinner.

I can’t tell you how much I disliked TOPS and their twelve step touch feely program. I was a member in the late 1970’s and left after one meeting. I renamed it FLOPS! maybe I am just too much of a loner although WW meetings worked for me for a long time. I’ve done it with great help from ASD on the Net. It’s been my favorite group because we are not held to a tight agenda. — Diva ***** The Best Man For The Job Is A Woman

Response:

I would be greatly surprised if such a social setting would be in any way helpful to you personally, given what I know about you.  Personally, I am getting all encouragement and advice from these newsgroups that I need.

Yikes, tovarich..what do you know? — Diva ***** The Best Man For The Job Is A Woman

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a very old organization.  Half of my local group is composed of women who are 70 years old, or older.  The group is very much in need of new blood.  24 members locally.  They are all women except for the one man that is the leader of the group.  He begged me to stay. They have several recitations that have a religious tone to them.  The theme seemed to be confessing their emotional eating….  (Not something I believe in.) I think the Peter Principle could be twisted to apply to the members. They have a subgroup called "KOPS" at the meeting, who are members who are at their goal weight.  Of 5 KOPS members, four were visibly quite overweight, and the fifth looked anorexic.  I guess the four set high goal weights. Despite the failings, I think the group has potential.   They claim over 300,000 members, so there may be more to the organization than I’m seeing in the local group. After the meeting they all go out to dinner.  That aspect seems self-defeating to me.  I skipped the dinner.

 This is exactly how it was when I went to meetings over 20 years ago, right down to the self-defeating "going out to dinner" after the meeting.  It was always our cheat night.  And I remember the whole weigh in process a lot of the ladies did…strip off all jewelry and go take a pee.  We would have ladies exclaim that they were losing fat because there was bubbles in their urine…that was the fat leaving their body, they would excitedly claim (and no one disputed them).  The bitching at the poor gal manning the scale that evening, because after all, she had to be doing something wrong because the "weighee" had been so good all week.  The roll call, and when someone reported a gain, a snide chorus of, "See ya lighter!" ensued. Then our one KOPS member, who reached her goal by eating only three tins of tuna a day, but filled out her food sheets to reflect differently. But, that was just the group I was in.  I just live in a weird area. Obviously the group as an organization is doing well, it has stood the test of time overall. Lisa

Response:

After the meeting they all go out to dinner.  That aspect seems self-defeating to me.  I skipped the dinner.

There’s a TOPS group in the town where we go for dinner once a week.  You’re correct in they go out to EAT after their meetings.  We often see them (we recognize members of the group)  in the places we go.  You wouldn’t believe how much food they consume from the all-you-can-eat bar at Shoney’s etc. And all of them are obese.   I don’t think they’re a group really serious about losing weight. — Wysong Age 60.  Height 5′6" 171/ 164 / 140 lb Starting date LC 7/01 at 207lbs Stopped losing on LC 11/01 at 165lbs NOW WALKING 1.5 to 3 MILES DAY.

Response:

I had failed for 15 months to find a local support group for low carb. However, I have discovered a group with zillions of chapters that meet once a week.  It is non-profit and only costs $20 to join.  http://www.tops.org/ They do not mind a person doing low carb. This is a very old organization.  Half of my local group is composed of women who are 70 years old, or older.  The group is very much in need of new blood.  24 members locally.  They are all women except for the one man that is the leader of the group.  He begged me to stay. They have several recitations that have a religious tone to them.  The theme seemed to be confessing their emotional eating….  (Not something I believe in.) I think the Peter Principle could be twisted to apply to the members. They have a subgroup called "KOPS" at the meeting, who are members who are at their goal weight.  Of 5 KOPS members, four were visibly quite overweight, and the fifth looked anorexic.  I guess the four set high goal weights. Despite the failings, I think the group has potential.   They claim over 300,000 members, so there may be more to the organization than I’m seeing in the local group. After the meeting they all go out to dinner.  That aspect seems self-defeating to me.  I skipped the dinner.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a very old organization.  Half of my local group is composed of women who are 70 years old, or older.  The group is very much in need of new blood.  24 members locally.  They are all women except for the one man that is the leader of the group.  He begged me to stay. They have several recitations that have a religious tone to them.  The theme seemed to be confessing their emotional eating….  (Not something I believe in.) I think the Peter Principle could be twisted to apply to the members. They have a subgroup called "KOPS" at the meeting, who are members who are at their goal weight.  Of 5 KOPS members, four were visibly quite overweight, and the fifth looked anorexic.  I guess the four set high goal weights. Despite the failings, I think the group has potential.   They claim over 300,000 members, so there may be more to the organization than I’m seeing in the local group. After the meeting they all go out to dinner.  That aspect seems self-defeating to me.  I skipped the dinner.

 This is exactly how it was when I went to meetings over 20 years ago, right down to the self-defeating "going out to dinner" after the meeting.  It was always our cheat night.  And I remember the whole weigh in process a lot of the ladies did…strip off all jewelry and go take a pee.  We would have ladies exclaim that they were losing fat because there was bubbles in their urine…that was the fat leaving their body, they would excitedly claim (and no one disputed them).  The bitching at the poor gal manning the scale that evening, because after all, she had to be doing something wrong because the "weighee" had been so good all week.  The roll call, and when someone reported a gain, a snide chorus of, "See ya lighter!" ensued. Then our one KOPS member, who reached her goal by eating only three tins of tuna a day, but filled out her food sheets to reflect differently. But, that was just the group I was in.  I just live in a weird area. Obviously the group as an organization is doing well, it has stood the test of time overall. Lisa

Response:

After the meeting they all go out to dinner.  That aspect seems self-defeating to me.  I skipped the dinner.

There’s a TOPS group in the town where we go for dinner once a week.  You’re correct in they go out to EAT after their meetings.  We often see them (we recognize members of the group)  in the places we go.  You wouldn’t believe how much food they consume from the all-you-can-eat bar at Shoney’s etc. And all of them are obese.   I don’t think they’re a group really serious about losing weight. — Wysong Age 60.  Height 5′6" 171/ 164 / 140 lb Starting date LC 7/01 at 207lbs Stopped losing on LC 11/01 at 165lbs NOW WALKING 1.5 to 3 MILES DAY.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I had failed for 15 months to find a local support group for low carb. However, I have discovered a group with zillions of chapters that meet once a week.  It is non-profit and only costs $20 to join.  http://www.tops.org/ They do not mind a person doing low carb. This is a very old organization.  Half of my local group is composed of women who are 70 years old, or older.  The group is very much in need of new blood.  24 members locally.  They are all women except for the one man that is the leader of the group.  He begged me to stay. They have several recitations that have a religious tone to them.  The theme seemed to be confessing their emotional eating….  (Not something I believe in.) I think the Peter Principle could be twisted to apply to the members. They have a subgroup called "KOPS" at the meeting, who are members who are at their goal weight.  Of 5 KOPS members, four were visibly quite overweight, and the fifth looked anorexic.  I guess the four set high goal weights. Despite the failings, I think the group has potential.   They claim over 300,000 members, so there may be more to the organization than I’m seeing in the local group. After the meeting they all go out to dinner.  That aspect seems self-defeating to me.  I skipped the dinner.

I can’t tell you how much I disliked TOPS and their twelve step touch feely program. I was a member in the late 1970’s and left after one meeting. I renamed it FLOPS! maybe I am just too much of a loner although WW meetings worked for me for a long time. I’ve done it with great help from ASD on the Net. It’s been my favorite group because we are not held to a tight agenda. — Diva ***** The Best Man For The Job Is A Woman

Response:

I would be greatly surprised if such a social setting would be in any way helpful to you personally, given what I know about you.  Personally, I am getting all encouragement and advice from these newsgroups that I need.

Yikes, tovarich..what do you know? — Diva ***** The Best Man For The Job Is A Woman

Response:

No they’re not. They were around before OA. It’s a good group, and inexpensive. You follow your own diet. However, as in any weight loss, your success or failure  is determined by yourself. — Cheri – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As far as I know they are a spin-off from Overeaters Anonymous so they are a 12-step group.  12-step groups are some of the best support groups around.  I’ve read that OA has a better 5-year retention rate than any other system including WW. This makes sense given that they preach you need to come weekly for the rest of your life.

Response:

Cubit’s experience made me laugh. Like I mentioned, I was in a TOPS group overseas (Germany)- one of the only weekly events for a military wife to go to. I met some KOPS and some gals on the rebound and some losers-mostly it was social for us. I’d say we all had a few sizes in the closet. Te organization did have a place in our community. some of those gals were desperate to lose weight and far from home. We all had a common interest. We never dined together but I did attend the annual convention in Bavaria (for us) and drove down with a former Top loser of the year who now drove with 2 serious bags of snacks next to her. It was memorable- I toured Hitler’s salt mine- I can’t remember a thing about the actual convention….only the Oreos that sat next to my fellow TOPSEE I got my own motivation since I had a new baby and took the weigh-ins seriously. It was a 1500 cal diet I was familiar with and lost 30 pounds.  I had a nice charm bracelet that was getting a lot of charms on it.  I threw it out a few years ago when I didn’t care about my weight. That event was nothing compared to now- keeping off 55 pounds the only way a dinner meeting would work would be if you were learning to eat out and keep to your plan. Not rationalize bad eating, or justify bad behavior. The only way I can be an inspiration now is to keep the pounds off for good. For that I won’t need to utter a word. Diane

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I had failed for 15 months to find a local support group for low carb. However, I have discovered a group with zillions of chapters that meet once a week.  It is non-profit and only costs $20 to join. http://www.tops.org/ They do not mind a person doing low carb. This is a very old organization.  Half of my local group is composed of women who are 70 years old, or older.  The group is very much in need of new blood.  24 members locally.  They are all women except for the one man that is the leader of the group.  He begged me to stay. They have several recitations that have a religious tone to them.  The theme seemed to be confessing their emotional eating….  (Not something I believe in.) I think the Peter Principle could be twisted to apply to the members. They have a subgroup called "KOPS" at the meeting, who are members who are at their goal weight.  Of 5 KOPS members, four were visibly quite overweight, and the fifth looked anorexic.  I guess the four set high goal weights. Despite the failings, I think the group has potential.   They claim over 300,000 members, so there may be more to the organization than I’m seeing in the local group. After the meeting they all go out to dinner.  That aspect seems self-defeating to me.  I skipped the dinner.

Response:

I had failed for 15 months to find a local support group for low carb. However, I have discovered a group with zillions of chapters that meet once a week.  It is non-profit and only costs $20 to join.  http://www.tops.org/ They do not mind a person doing low carb. This is a very old organization.

As far as I know they are a spin-off from Overeaters Anonymous so they are a 12-step group.  12-step groups are some of the best support groups around.  I’ve read that OA has a better 5-year retention rate than any other system including WW. This makes sense given that they preach you need to come weekly for the rest of your life. Half of my local group is composed of women who are 70 years old, or older.  The group is very much in need of new blood.  24 members locally.  They are all women except for the one man that is the leader of the group.  He begged me to stay.

Chuckle.  They didn’t one of the women take charge? They have several recitations that have a religious tone to them.

Consistant with a 12-step program.  They don’t require any particular religion but anyone in a non-Christian religion who is not in complete comfort with their own faith is likely to find the fact that they are majority Christians a source of discomfort.  Christians tend to think that anyone religious or spiritual must also be Christian.  Part of being in the majority and therefore not exposed to variety I suspect. The 12th step goes something like "Having undergone a spiritual reawakening as a result of our efforts, we go out into the world to help others who are suffering from our affliction."  12 steps groups pray at most of their mettings. The theme seemed to be confessing their emotional eating….  (Not something I believe in.)

Don’t only see it on the surface.  These folks have a chance to spend year after year working through any emotional issue they have with the help of the group. Being at OA/TOPS their emotional issues tend to come out through emotional eating. I think the Peter Principle could be twisted to apply to the members.

That’s one way of looking at it.  In AA the ones who are able to do the 13th step are really the ones who weren’t addicted in the first place.  So you need to still have issues to think it worth going.  But is that a bad thing?  Fumbling through is still working your issues. They have a subgroup called "KOPS" at the meeting, who are members who are at their goal weight.  Of 5 KOPS members, four were visibly quite overweight, and the fifth looked anorexic.  I guess the four set high goal weights.

Chuckle. Despite the failings, I think the group has potential.   They claim over 300,000 members, so there may be more to the organization than I’m seeing in the local group.

Yup. After the meeting they all go out to dinner.  That aspect seems self-defeating to me.  I skipped the dinner.

The most successfull dieters in the national registry (the folks that don’t ask questions that low carbers can answer) don’t skip meals.  So I suggest that as long as it was a light meal it actually helped ther long term adherence.  On the other hand if they did the common 12-step thing of having cake and ice cream I agree.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I had failed for 15 months to find a local support group for low carb. However, I have discovered a group with zillions of chapters that meet once a week.  It is non-profit and only costs $20 to join. http://www.tops.org/ They do not mind a person doing low carb. This is a very old organization.  Half of my local group is composed of women who are 70 years old, or older.  The group is very much in need of new blood.  24 members locally.  They are all women except for the one man that is the leader of the group.  He begged me to stay. They have several recitations that have a religious tone to them.  The theme seemed to be confessing their emotional eating….  (Not something I believe in.) I think the Peter Principle could be twisted to apply to the members. They have a subgroup called "KOPS" at the meeting, who are members who are at their goal weight.  Of 5 KOPS members, four were visibly quite overweight, and the fifth looked anorexic.  I guess the four set high goal weights. Despite the failings, I think the group has potential.   They claim over 300,000 members, so there may be more to the organization than I’m seeing in the local group. After the meeting they all go out to dinner.  That aspect seems self-defeating to me.  I skipped the dinner.

I’m not really familiar with them, but I do know that TOPS (Take Off Pounds Sensibly) has been around for many years. Dick Stephens

Response:

I had failed for 15 months to find a local support group for low carb. However, I have discovered a group with zillions of chapters that meet once a week.  It is non-profit and only costs $20 to join.  http://www.tops.org/ They do not mind a person doing low carb. This is a very old organization.  Half of my local group is composed of women who are 70 years old, or older.  The group is very much in need of new blood.  24 members locally.  They are all women except for the one man that is the leader of the group.  He begged me to stay. They have several recitations that have a religious tone to them.  The theme seemed to be confessing their emotional eating….  (Not something I believe in.) I think the Peter Principle could be twisted to apply to the members. They have a subgroup called "KOPS" at the meeting, who are members who are at their goal weight.  Of 5 KOPS members, four were visibly quite overweight, and the fifth looked anorexic.  I guess the four set high goal weights. Despite the failings, I think the group has potential.   They claim over 300,000 members, so there may be more to the organization than I’m seeing in the local group. After the meeting they all go out to dinner.  That aspect seems self-defeating to me.  I skipped the dinner.

Response:

The group I belong to has a lot of fun too. Some of them go to lunch every Wednesday after the meeting and continue to have slow, steady weight losses each week. I’ve never gone to lunch with them because it’s not at a convenient time for me, but I see nothing wrong with it. — Cheri – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After the meeting they all go out to dinner.  That aspect seems self-defeating to me.  I skipped the dinner. The TOPS group in my area has always done this. My mother-in-law used to own the only eatery in town. I got a kick out of the warning shout from the waitresses "TOPS is here." But their orders were usually one-egg broccoli and cheese omelets, one slice of homemade raisin toast (a must!), and one slice of bacon or sausage. A bowl of oatmeal here or there, but nobody ever went "whole-hog" and got a farmer’s breakfast (pancakes, eggs, meat, toast, homefries) or anything like that. TOPS is still going strong around here (right, Laurie?), ‘cept now they meet on Thursday nights. They still get together at the diner after, but I think the chicken caesar salad is the meal of choice. They seem like a fun bunch of gals. If I had to do it over again, I wouldn’t mind losing with them. Amy 168/115/…

Response:

TOPS is still going strong around here (right, Laurie?), ‘cept now they meet on Thursday nights. They still get together at the diner after, but I think the chicken caesar salad is the meal of choice. They seem like a fun bunch of gals. If I had to do it over again, I wouldn’t mind losing with them.

I very much enjoyed my visit to TOPS last year and hope to do it again in May.  If I lived in the area, I’d be a regular.  I like groups – I sold Tupperware because I liked the meetings. <g — Snowshoeing . . . Laurie in Maine 207/115  New Scale Start: 2/02  Maintained since 2/03

Response:

Cubit schreef: Igor, You are probably right. While I’m a bit calorie restricted, I spend a lot of time thinking about food related subjects, such as nutrition and dieting, so the group can be part of that agenda. I’m curious about the group’s politics, given its national scope

Better make that *inter*national scope. Don’t forget, it’s the *world* *wide* web! and 300,000 members.  Also, I have wondered if some younger women might pop in from time to time….

Sorry, I’m 49 (and happily married . I feel I’ve mastered this dieting thing.  To properly showoff, I need an audience.  I’m far enough below the weight of my friends, that the topic of weightloss is now impolite.  

Congratulations! Berna (101.5/75.5/~68 kg) — ( )_( ) Berna M. Bleeker-Slikker / http://www.volksliedjes.nl

Response:

   I was in TOPS for a while when I was dieting last year.  It was a very nice bunch of ladies, but I was uncomfortable with the whole set up myself.  They were all Christian church goers, I am agnostic.  The meeting were actually held in a church’s community room.  No one tried to convert me (I never mentioned my views on religion at all), but internally at least I still felt like an outsider.  The solemn chanting at the start and end of each meeting was pretty off putting to me.    I can see how the way this group is set up might be useful for some people, but it just wasn’t a good fit for me.     — Annie

Response:

Igor, You are probably right. While I’m a bit calorie restricted, I spend a lot of time thinking about food related subjects, such as nutrition and dieting, so the group can be part of that agenda. I’m curious about the group’s politics, given its national scope and 300,000 members.  Also, I have wondered if some younger women might pop in from time to time…. I feel I’ve mastered this dieting thing.  To properly showoff, I need an audience.  I’m far enough below the weight of my friends, that the topic of weightloss is now impolite.  Relatives are starting to worry that I am losing weight too fast.  I’m thinking this can be a new venue for talking about dieting.  My best information is online, but direct human interaction has a function too.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would be greatly surprised if such a social setting would be in any way helpful to you personally, given what I know about you.  Personally, I am getting all encouragement and advice from these newsgroups that I need. — 223/173.1/180

Response:

After the meeting they all go out to dinner.  That aspect seems self-defeating to me.  I skipped the dinner.

The TOPS group in my area has always done this. My mother-in-law used to own the only eatery in town. I got a kick out of the warning shout from the waitresses "TOPS is here." But their orders were usually one-egg broccoli and cheese omelets, one slice of homemade raisin toast (a must!), and one slice of bacon or sausage. A bowl of oatmeal here or there, but nobody ever went "whole-hog" and got a farmer’s breakfast (pancakes, eggs, meat, toast, homefries) or anything like that. TOPS is still going strong around here (right, Laurie?), ‘cept now they meet on Thursday nights. They still get together at the diner after, but I think the chicken caesar salad is the meal of choice. They seem like a fun bunch of gals. If I had to do it over again, I wouldn’t mind losing with them. Amy 168/115/…

Response:

Leonardo accused of plots to kill 2 Papers say disbarred lawyer deeper into crime than he admits. Gary Craig Staff writer (January 8, 2005) – Former defense lawyer Anthony Leonardo Jr., now imprisoned, plotted to murder two business partners, federal prosecutors allege in court papers filed Friday. Leonardo has admitted that he twice schemed to have one business partner, Anthony Vaccaro, murdered. But the court papers allege that Leonardo also planned to have another business partner, David Cashion, killed. Leonardo, Vaccaro and Cashion were partners in a Charlotte nightclub, Club Titanic, that opened in 1999. Vaccaro was murdered in a gangland-style shooting in May 2000, and Leonardo was arrested in December 2000 on cocaine-trafficking charges. The Vaccaro homicide sparked an investigation into Leonardo’s activities. As it turned out, Leonardo had used $100,000 from Albert M. Ranieri, who robbed an armored car in 1990 of nearly $11 million, to open Club Titanic. The investigation led to a guilty plea in 2001 from Leonardo, who admitted to conspiracies to kill Vaccaro, to traffic cocaine and to launder money. In 2002, Ranieri pleaded guilty to racketeering crimes, including the Vaccaro slaying and the armored car robbery. Ranieri is now serving 30 years in prison. Last month, Leonardo, 57, challenged his plea agreement, alleging that he was entrapped by federal authorities into committing crimes. Leonardo’s former lawyer, John Speranza, has withdrawn from the case. Leonardo, although disbarred, is scheduled to be in federal court next Friday to argue his motion to void his plea. In advance of that hearing, prosecutors on Friday filed a 156-page response attacking Leonardo’s charges and claiming that he was far more involved with crime than he admitted. On March 28, 2000, Leonardo and Ranieri went to Cashion’s home where "Ranieri intended to attempt to lure Vaccaro,” the court papers allege. Ranieri planned to kill both Vaccaro and Cashion, the papers say. The court papers do not say why the plot failed. Asked about the allegation, Ranieri’s lawyer, Michael Tallon, said Friday, "The bottom line is, it’s true." Leonardo was integral to the planning, Tallon said. "This was a jointly undertaken activity." Cashion refused Friday to comment about the allegation. The court papers filed Friday also claim Leonardo was more active in plans to kill Vaccaro than he has admitted to. (Leonardo was not involved in the actual slaying, but has admitted to planning with Ranieri two failed attempts on Vaccaro’s life.) According to court papers, Leonardo is caught on an undercover tape talking about plans to kill Vaccaro: "Twenty times I was involved in it, and it didn’t go down." In another surreptitiously taped conversation, he says, "So many times we planned this thing. It just never (expletive) worked. And finally it finally worked." Under his plea agreement, Leonardo expected to receive 12 years in prison. (He has served four.) Prosecutors agreed that his assistance helped force Ranieri into admission of his crimes. Now that Leonardo is challenging the plea pact, however, prosecutors are asking that Leonardo instead be sentenced to 16 to 20 years, the maximum under the plea agreement. "The government maintains that the original sentence agreed upon is the appropriate sentence and declines to move a freckle below that," said Assistant U.S. Attorney Charles Wydysh. Leonardo, who is now in the Niagara County Jail, alleges that prosecutors illegally withheld undercover tapes that would have revealed he was at first unwilling to commit crimes. Leonardo was hard up for cash, he claimed in court papers, and authorities took advantage of his dire financial situation by having an informant entice him with money-making schemes. In his response, Wydysh wrote that the government did not know that Leonardo was, as he claims, "broke." "Leonardo lived in a mansion, drove a Mercedes-Benz, bragged about paying $2,000 for his suits," the court papers say. During the investigation, "the belief then, as it is now, is that Leonardo acted out of extreme greed," the court papers state. One of Leonardo’s former legal partners, Bruce Freeman, said he doubted Leonardo would challenge his plea without some legal footing. "I would be confident that there would be grounds that are supported by what he’s found in his research," Freeman said. "He’s a very good lawyer. If he has found legal grounds to make this motion, he’ll argue with that well."

Response:

Dear Lord Satan [4:15 AM]: i PRAY TO SATAN Dear Lord Satan [4:16 AM]: EXORCISM OF JEHOVAH-YAHWEH THE NAZARENE, HEAVENS ANGELS, ALL OF THE SAINTS, THE HOLY SPIRIT, BLESSED TRINITY, FROM MY BODY AND BLACKENED SOUL The preceding rite of exorcism is designated for me, to invite the power of the evil spirits into my soul. The following exorcism has been done to me. In the name of the Satan, and Lucifer, and of Beelzebuth please listen to my prayer to you. Dear Lord Satan [4:16 AM]: Satan the ruler of Heaven, Hell and Earth, illustrious leader of the hellish army, defend me in the battle against my holy enemies and their weak powers, against the rulers of the world of light and the spirit of holiness in high places. Come to the rescue of mankind, whom Jehovah-Yahweh the Nazarene has made in His own image and likeness; take any vile drop of puss that spurt out of Jehovah-Yahweh the Nazarene’s dick out of me. Dear Lord Satan [4:17 AM]: Unholy Church venerates me as her patron and guardian. The Lord Lucifer has entrusted to me the task of leading the souls into the darkness of Hell. Entreat Satan Lord of the Earth to cast Jehovah-Yahweh the Nazarene down under your feet, so as to keep him from further holding man captive and doing harm to the Wicked Dear Lord Satan [4:17 AM]: Carry my prayers down to Satan’s throne, that the mercy of Satan may quickly come and lay hold of the bastard Jesus Fucking Christ, Jehovah-Yahweh the Nazarene, and the Holy Spirit and his angels, casting them in chains into the abyss, so that he can no longer seduce the nations. Exorcism Dear Lord Satan [4:19 AM]: Satan the Father commands you. Lucifer commands you. Beelzebuth commands you. I command you Christ you rotten piece of flesh, by the power of my eternal Blasphemy against Jehovah-Yahweh the Nazarene, commands you, Dear Lord Satan [4:19 AM]: I have humbled Myself, becoming obedient even unto death, to give our race; who will burn Jehovah-Yahweh the Nazarene’s Church’s, declaring that the gates of hell should always prevail against heaven, and that Satan will remain inside of my body and soul all days of my life on earth and when I am on his alter in Hell. Dear Lord Satan [4:19 AM]: My unholy thoughts and Blasphemy of the cross of your rotten dead son Jesus Chris commands you, along with the power of all mysteries of the Satanic faith. The Beautiful and Wondrous Lillith, Mother of the Earth, commands you, who in her arms crushed Holy Children from the first moment of her Immaculate Conception. Dear Lord Satan [4:20 AM]: I invoke and demand you by the living Lord Satan, by the true God, by the unholy Lucifer, by one that nailed Jesus Fucking Christ to the cross, that whoever believes in Satan might not perish but have everlasting life; to cease deluding human creatures and filling them with your vile poison of Holiness; Dear Lord Satan [4:20 AM]: to let them Blasphemy The Holy Spirit, the Rotten unblessed Trinity. Begone, the defiled Jehovah-Yahweh the Nazarene, father and master of lies, enemy of man’s welfare. Give place to Satan, in whom you found was your Master. Give way to the one, unholy, Satanic, and Demonic Church, which Satan Himself purchased with His blood Dear Lord Satan [4:21 AM]: There is nothing that is not Satan’s. I have nothing that is not Satan’s – and Satan is my innermost Self. Satan is my God. Satan is also my Innermost Self. I recognize no other gods, saviors or masters. When I call out to God, I will be calling out to The Almighty Satan for he is the only real God. Dear Lord Satan [4:21 AM]: I place myself at every point in the Pentacle. Satan is my hope and strength, my healing and soothing, my peace and the fire in my veins. I am within Satan as He is within me. I accept the Mark of The Beast (666). I have taken my vows to the Infernal Kingdom. I have pledged my soul to Depths of Darkness. I seek the Lord Satan and all of his Infernal Powers. I have accepted Lord Satan into my body, mind, heart, and soul. Dear Lord Satan [4:21 AM]: I initiated my own Baptism into the Church of Satan and took the name of Asmodeus. I denounce and Blasphemy Jehovah-Yahweh the Nazarene, The Holy Spirit, Blessed Trinity, and Jesus Christ. I deny that Mary was a virgin when she spit jesus christ of out her rotten, filthy, cum filled, fuck hole. I denounce my baptism and my confirmation in the catholic church. I demand you take my name out of The Lambs Book Of Life. I will never enter a church of any Christian faith unless I’m there to steal the body of christ. Dear Lord Satan [4:22 AM]: I signed my baptism offering to Satan in my own blood, and consign it to the flames, your element. On every Sabbath Day/Sunday, and all of the holy days I will worship and give thanks to Satan, and will Blasphemy, Jehovah-Yahweh the Nazarene, The Holy Spirit, The Blessed Trinity and all the angels and saints in heaven. I have done this of my own free will. And by this act, it is done! Dear Lord Satan [4:22 AM]: Satan, heed my prayer. And let my cry be heard by you. Satan be deep inside of me possessing my blacken soul with Blasphemy against anything holy. May Satan also posses and fill my darkened soul with Blasphemous thoughts against and all the heavens and may he let me smire my dick on The Holy Spirit and fill the putrid, rotten, filthy, whore of The Mother of Jehovah-Yahweh the Nazarene, Mary with my red hot semen Dear Lord Satan [4:29 AM]: I pray. Jehovah-Yahweh the Nazarene you fallen leader of heaven and earth, Jehovah-Yahweh the Nazarene you rotten maggot now fornicating in angels cunts, Jehovah-Yahweh the Nazarene of that putrid son Jesus Christ, Jehovah-Yahweh the Nazarene who’s mother is that filthy cunt whore Mary, Jehovah-Yahweh the Nazarene of lies and cum sallower of Demons in Hell, Dear Lord Satan [4:29 AM]: Jehovah-Yahweh the Nazarene who will suck and drink Satan’s CUM and has no power to bestow life after death and rest after toil; for there is no other God than Satan, nor can there be another true God beside Satan, the ruler of all things visible and invisible, whose kingdom is without end Dear Lord Satan [4:30 AM]: I humbly open my heart and soul to Satan’s glorious majesty and pray to Him to deliver me deep into evil, and curse and fornicate on the spirits of heaven. I long to see the unvirgin slut, whore mary the mother of Jehovah-Yahweh the Nazarene with her rotten, filthy cunt full of cum from all the demons in hell Dear Lord Satan [4:30 AM]: raping and sodomizing her holy ass. Satan led me to your evil snare and lustful fornication, and to keep me from far away from that Bastard Christ who now gives praise to you Almighty Satan. Deliver me to Hell and place me on Satan’s alter. Satan, please take my body, mind and soul. That I may help your Church and serve your you and all the demons in Hell. Dear Lord Satan [4:30 AM]: I beg you to hear me Dear Lord Satan [4:30 AM]: that you humble our enemies of holy Christian Church I urine and shit down jehovah-yahweh the nazarene’s mouth and stick my Dick in his ass. Every time I fuck him I will watch as he licks my shit off his dick and swallows my hot cum in Satan’s name.

Response:

The Soul Collector (1999)

Response:

The demons were obsessed with sexual perversions in antediluvian times and they haven’t changed.

Response:

Raid likely saved Leonardo associate’s life Gary Craig Staff writer (January 8, 2005) – Little did David Cashion know when State Police raided his home in March 2000 that they may have saved his life. State Police wouldn’t have known, either. Cashion was one of a number of targets in a multistate probe into illegal sports gambling. He also was a business partner with defense lawyer Anthony Leonardo Jr. and pool hall owner Anthony Vaccaro; the three owned a Charlotte nightclub, Club Titanic. In court papers filed Friday, federal prosecutors allege that Leonardo and Albert M. Ranieri went to Cashion’s home on March 28, 2000, with plans to lure Vaccaro there and kill Cashion and Vaccaro. But there was no murder that night. The court papers do not say why authorities think the plan failed. But other court papers – state search warrants obtained previously by the Democrat and Chronicle – show that anyone who went to Cashion’s city home the night of March 28 would have run into the State Police. On that night, state and local police raided homes and businesses, including Vaccaro’s pool halls, across the region. They suspected that Cashion, Vaccaro and others were knee-deep in a multimillion-dollar illegal betting ring. Investigators attributed 821 illegal bets totaling $573,447 to Cashion and a roommate from Jan. 14, 2000, to March 21, 2000. Court records do not show criminal charges against Cashion, but do show he forfeited money to the federal government after his home was raided. Cashion would not comment Friday.

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http://www.lex18.com/Global/story.asp?S=2769277&nav=EQlpUrMz COVERING KENTUCKY Mother Thinks Daughter Was Slain In Satanic Ritual The mother of a slain teenage girl from Ashland says her daughter may have been the victim of a satanic ritual. Police say Amanda Maynard, 15, died after her neighbor, Kenneth Ray O’Neal, Jr., 19, broke in her home, stabbed and sexually assaulted her on New Year’s Day. An Ashland native, Maynard had moved with her mother to Garner, North Carolina last March. Garner Police say Maynard was home alone, when neighbors reported a disturbance at the home about 3 a.m. Saturday morning. Police say Maynard had been stabbed multiple times and sexually assaulted. An investigation led police to O’Neal. Maynard’s mother told a Raleigh newspaper that O’Neal had been listening to "satanic" music, referring to sexual acts involving a knife prior to the killing. The paper also reported O’Neal was a member of the area’s gothic community. Shortly before a Tuesday evening memorial service for Maynard at First Presbyterian Church of Garner, Maynard’s mother, Tammy Edrington, spoke publicly about her daughter’s death. Edrington said she and her daughter always tried to steer clear of O’Neal. "When we moved in, I looked across the street and I looked at her," she said. "I saw this man in this trench coat with these huge spikes and all this jewelry and this red, silky shirt on, and I said, ‘Please tell me he’s going to a Halloween party’ because it was the beginning of October. She said, ‘That’s spooky.’" On Tuesday, Edrington saw her daughter’s body for the first time since the slaying and said she didn’t recognize her. "It just makes me sick," she said. "He’s a coward. He thinks just because he confesses, we’re supposed to say, ‘OK.’" O’Neal does not have a prior criminal record. He’s being held without bond in the Wake County Jail. Maynard’s body was flown back to Kentucky for her funeral, which is scheduled for 1 p.m. Saturday at the Miller Funeral Home. ===== Rev. Daniel Nephilim’s Occult Services and Investigations – http://www.angelfire.com/dc2/nephilim

Response:

FURY OVER LIVE TELLY EXORCISM Jan 4 2005 Church leaders blast Channel 4 ‘experiment’ By Nicola Methven CHURCH leaders angrily condemned Channel 4 last night over plans to broadcast a live exorcism. TV morality campaigners also slammed the idea, branding it harmful and dangerous. The programme, called Exorcism, will be shown next month. An insider said: ‘The aim is to test the science involved. ‘It would involve officials from the church and leading scientists and we would monitor precisely what happens during the process.’ Taste Sky TV are planning a separate show called When Exorcisms Go Wrong, featuring amateur videos of rites from around the world. Broadcasting watchdogs Ofcom say demonstrations of exorcisms and other ‘occult practices’ should not be shown on factual TV ‘except in the context of a legitimate investigation’. But a source said: ‘The producers will insist they should be allowed to broadcast the exorcism on the grounds that it’s a form of scientific experimentation and a legitimate part of church practice. ‘Whether the broadcasting authorities see it like that is another matter.’ A spokesman for the Catholic Church in Scotland branded the show ‘a ratings-grabbing attempt to push the boundaries of taste’. He said: ‘Each exorcism deals with very complex psychological, spiritual and emotional issues which cannot be easily monitored or measured. ‘To try to analyse some kind of scientific results would be a non-starter.’ Groups like Mediawatch, founded by the late Mary Whitehouse, claim shows about the paranormal can harm vulnerable viewers. They blame the BBC’s Ghostwatch, a spoof Halloween show 13 years ago, for driving a young viewer to suicide. John Beyer, Mediawatch director, said of the Channel 4 exorcism: ‘This sounds very dangerous and is likely to cause considerable unease. Getting ratings is all the broad- casters are bothered about.This is not only ill-advised, it could be harmful. ‘If Ghostwatch is anything to go by, vulnerable people do take notice. Surely someone killing themselves as a consequence of a TV programme should be enough to set a precedent.’ A spokesman for Channel 4 confirmed the exorcism programme was planned for later in the year. And a Sky One spokesman claimed their show would be ‘a thought-provoking exploration of a controversial subject’. ===== Rev. Daniel Nephilim’s Occult Services and Investigations – http://www.angelfire.com/dc2/nephilim

Response:

Nomen Nescio, Do you really believe that?

Response:

"Nomen Nescio" <nob…@dizum.com> wrote in message

news:b639bdd10ae028034e6fab76918232c7@dizum.com… > do not look in the attic

Strange you should say that – I had a conversation with my brother recently about why my cordless phone wasn’t working, and he suggested putting on a diving suit and trying it out in the attic. I didn’t take his advice, mainly because I don’t have a diving suit not do I have an attic. But I did however buy a new telephone.

Response:

Rap Kid Rock inaugural pick BY MAKI BECKER DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER Kid Rock Conservative Christians are flabbergasted about reports that raunchy rock-rapper Kid Rock will perform at a youth concert at the presidential inauguration. "What in the world are these people thinking?" asked Donald Wildmon, chairman of the American Family Association in Tupelo, Miss. "This is the biggest slap in the face to the Christian conservatives." Kid Rock reportedly will perform at "America Rocks Today: A Call to Service," a multimedia concert. Bush’s daughter Barbara is the event’s co-managing director. But Kid Rock doesn’t exactly seem like her dad’s kind of guy. The almost-34-year-old Detroit bad boy is currently dating porn actress Jessie James, never goes anywhere without a pint of bourbon in his back pocket and rattles off X-rated lyrics that regularly earn his albums parental advisory warnings. At the same time, he’s a die-hard Republican and a big fan of Dubya. He put on a concert during last summer’s Republican convention at the Manhattan nightclub Avalon – which the Bush twins attended. But Kid Rock has a funny way of showing his support. In his 2001 song "You Never Met a Motherf—er Quite Like Me," he boasts, "I Met the President when I was half-stoned." And back in 1990 – when President Bush’s father was in the White House and his mother, Barbara, was First Lady – Kid Rock sang: "Pimp of the Nation, I could be it/ As a matter of fact, I forsee it/ But only pimpin hoes with the big tush/ While you be left pimpin Barbra Bush." "Boy," Wildmon admonished. "Where I come from, you talk about my mama like that, those are fightin’ words. Shooting words!" Inauguration planners seemed to be backpedaling yesterday about the event following a call from the Daily News. "Kid Rock has not been confirmed," insisted Tracey Schmitt, a spokeswoman from the Presidential Inaugural Committee. "But I can tell you Hilary Duff has been confirmed, as has JoJo." Schmitt added, "There’s no greater defender of family values than President Bush."

Response:

She wore an itsy-bitsy teenie-weenie yellow poke-a-dot bikini… Guess what? Hilary Duff is coming to the nearest metropolitan area to give a concert. The media wants me to show-up and will make me feel like a "heel" for not showing up. It would cost ME over $60 to attend. Seems to me, I couldn’t afford to go to the prom in high school either.

Response:

Rain brings down the roof at City Hall By Beth Barrett Staff Writer Friday, January 07, 2005 – With another major storm bearing down on Southern California, crews scrambled Thursday to fix leaks in the new $900,000 roof at Los Angeles City Hall, which recently underwent a $300 million seismic upgrade. This season’s record-breaking rainfall ran down uncapped pipes and vents and leaked through breaches between the roof and drain pipes, damaging five City Council offices on the fourth floor, as well as several rooms of the 24th floor of the tower. And the frigid storm system arriving today could dump up to six inches of rain downtown and 10 inches on hillsides already soaked by record-breaking wet weather, forecasters said. "Right now, we want to stop the water from getting into the building," said Dan Eason, director of building maintenance in the General Services Department. Councilman Dennis Zine, whose offices sustained the worst water damage, including a couple of two-foot-square ceiling tiles that crashed down on a staffer’s desk, said the leaks were unacceptable. "You spend over $300 million, and you’d expect it would be done properly," said Zine, who said he’ll introduce a motion to look at the quality of construction in city buildings, of which there are about 850 in L.A. "It’s supposed to be state of the art." Eason said the roof involved a new technology, saving energy by reflecting heat, and that some of the new innovations might have been responsible for the problems. He said the company, Best Roofing & Waterproofing Inc. of Gardena, is making the repairs under warranty. City officials said this was the first time the new roof has leaked. It was installed in 2002 after the $300 million seismic retrofit was completed, and it then was discovered that the 70-year-old roof had leaky tiles and other problems. Eason said because the roof is under warranty, the in-house repairing of the offices, capping of pipes and sealing up some access doors on the 24th floor are estimated at about $5,000. The leak in Zine’s office apparently came where a drain pipe wasn’t completely sealed into the roof, Eason said. Leaks in the other council offices appear to have come from old pipes and conduits that weren’t properly capped during the retrofit. Zine’s communications director, Jennifer Forkish, said water was dripping from the ceiling in her office Monday morning and that as she looked up, the tiles parted, then fell. "I felt like usually people use umbrellas outside, but I needed it inside not only for the water, but the falling debris," Forkish said. Four other fourth-floor council offices were affected. Antonio Villaraigosa’s chief of staff, Jimmy Blackman, said he left his desk briefly, only to return to a desk covered with soggy ceiling tiles. "My roof fell down, luckily not on my head," Blackman said. "They weren’t enough to have knocked me out." Sam Garrison, spokesman for Martin Ludlow, reported some dark water stains on his ceiling, but no major damage. Eason said while the council offices got most of the attention, the rains caused problems in structures elsewhere — though none major. "There are a lot of leaks throughout the city, but these are the only ones most people are concerned about," he said. "In reality, there are others that are much worse." There isn’t a cost estimate citywide yet, but all the repairs could take up to a couple of months. Today, up to 6 inches of rain is forecast for the valleys, with 5 inches to 10 inches of rain expected on mountain slopes before the storm moves out of the region early next week, said Bonnie Bartling, a weather specialist with the National Weather Service in Oxnard. "It’s a pretty powerful rain producer," she said. "Because of the saturated ground, we really have to watch out for flooding." Flash-flood warnings are in effect for Los Angeles and Ventura counties, and forecasters warned of winter-storm conditions in Southern California mountains. Temperatures will be uncharacteristically frosty in the valleys today, with highs in the upper 40s to low 50s and lows dipping into the low 40s. Highs Saturday are expected to climb into the high 50s to low 60s. Up to 2 feet of snow is expected above 5,000 feet today. An additional foot to 2 feet of snow is forecast for Saturday, when the snow level will rise to 6,500 feet. A wind advisory is in effect for Los Angeles and Ventura counties, with winds of 25 mph to 40 mph and gusts up to 60 mph. Forecasters are divided over whether the coming wet weather consists of two separate storms or a single weather system with a break that will bring a short reprieve Saturday, Bartling said. The storm comes on the heels of an exceptionally wet weather system that has eased drought conditions and brought nearly four times the normal amount of rainfall. More than 14 inches of rain has fallen in Los Angeles since July 1, more than the city usually gets in an entire year. Staff Writer Andrea Cavanaugh contributed to this story.

Response:

Well if you’re going back to 306 A.D., why stop there?

        Because that’s the canon of Catholic Law as it stands.  None of what was stated in this particular post has been, to my knowledge, repudiated. Keep going, and go past Christianity. Please reveal the "dirt" on Judaism.

        Judaism has just as ugly a past that it, too, has never repudiated.  The wholesale slaughter of cities in the old testament is part of the glorious past. Please reveal the dirt on Egypt.

        Nah, there aren’t enough Pharaoh worshippers around to make it interesting.         I disagree with the original poster, because the "ugly core" of Christianity is easy and short: John 3:18.                 Elf

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well if you’re going back to 306 A.D., why stop there? Keep going, and go past Christianity. Please reveal the "dirt" on Judaism. And keep going back more millenia. Please reveal the dirt on Egypt. And keep going back. Yes. Tell us about how cavemen were assholes. … =B7  Cave dwellers weren’t all that bad, even though their table manners were not stellar. — =80 R.L.Measures, 805-386-3734, www.somis.org remove _ fr Well if you’re going back to 306 A.D., why stop there? Keep going, and go past Christianity. Please reveal the "dirt" on Judaism. And keep going back more millenia. Please reveal the dirt on Egypt. And keep going back. Yes. Tell us about how cavemen were assholes. … =B7 Cave dwellers weren’t all that bad, even though their table manners were not stellar. Are you sure?  How did you get you’re data?

**  I used to eat in a college cafeteria.  Have you ever seen "Animal House"? —

Oh, another disgruntled secular lost soul spouts off, as if he invented "hating religion". Tell me,…what gang of wolves were you raised by? I just love these lost souls who have taken the benefits of being raised by a Christian heritage, and then spit on it and throw it up like arrogant ingrates.

Benefits? Tell me…how far back do you have to go in your family history before you have to tell me someone was religious?

Why should that matter? How far back do you have to go to find a racist or a slave owner/trader? Does that make you a racist and slave trader? Since I don’t know you apart from the vitriol here perhaps you are a racist and wanna be slave trader…. And, where did you get your values from if you didn’t get them from religion? the TV? Jerry Springer? your wolf pack?

I got mine from personal experience, consideration and thought. You got yours from a book written by ignorant men 1300 years ago and forced on you by your parents who had it forced on them and so on. Would you like to know Saddam Hussein was secular? Ooooh, that’s gotta hurt.

And Hitler was a christian – ooh that’s got to hurt. The fact is, someone else’s actions and opinions are just that *someone else’s*. gater.

Response:

on 09 Dec 2004 in alt.atheism, Scream Machine dropped trou, farted, whirled, then shouted: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, another disgruntled secular lost soul spouts off, as if he invented "hating religion". Tell me,…what gang of wolves were you raised by? I just love these lost souls who have taken the benefits of being raised by a Christian heritage, and then spit on it and throw it up like arrogant ingrates. Tell me…how far back do you have to go in your family history before you have to tell me someone was religious? And, where did you get your values from if you didn’t get them from religion? the TV? Jerry Springer? your wolf pack? Would you like to know Saddam Hussein was secular? Ooooh, that’s gotta hurt.

Awww, turn the other cheek already. — Vic Sagerquist aa#2011 Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department

Response:

Pfff…, like the Torah or the Koran doesn’t have ugly passages? Are you new to religion? Perhaps you need to re-read one of my other comments – TAKE FROM IT WHAT YOU WILL. You sound like someone who has carelessly thrown the baby out with the bathwater. You didn’t like a couple of snippets, so you rejected it entirely outright. Way to go ingrate.

And I think you’ll find most non-believers dislike those fantasy books as much as the xtn ones. But as a *believer* you must by definition believe the your book is the word of your god – complete, correct and wholesome. Why then do you choose to ignore some of the rules? – the most draconian ones are quite clearly written even by the bible’s low standards. I’ll tell you why, because over many centuries, many very intelligent people have pointed out the stupidity of the bible with such clear arguments that even the most ardent believer cannot help but agree. You’re lucky those free-thinkers have gained for you the ability to choose your interpretation – just a few hundred years ago you’d have been persecuted for your heresy by the very people you claim to band with. As a final point, if you don’t believe & follow all the rules as written, how can you claim to be xtn (or whatever)? Either you are, or you aren’t – there’s no interpreted middle ground necessary with a book penned by god himself is there? gater.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, another disgruntled secular lost soul spouts off, as if he invented "hating religion". Well xtianity would be more intersting if it was based on Tolkeins books. Gandalf = Moses Golem = Judas and just as meaningfull. Tell me,…what gang of wolves were you raised by? Me, I was raised by apes, primates, not wolves. Although wolves are considered gentle and caring parents. Unless you read the bible which as expected gets just about everything wrong. I just love these lost souls who have taken the benefits of being raised by a Christian heritage, and then spit on it and throw it up like arrogant ingrates. If christian church leaders had been succesful in the suppresion of knowlege it would still be the dark ages and our heritage would be plowing fields for our fuedal overlords from dawn to dusk and paying 10% of all earnings as tithe to keep some fat arsed bishop in wenches and wine, with perhaps an occaisional witch burning to break the monotony. People were forced to live in this manner for centuries thanks to chritian heritage. The vatican even today is worth around 6 billion dollars which even without a christian heritage I find gross hypocrosy when viewing the latest famine pictures on the news. Tell me…how far back do you have to go in your family history before you have to tell me someone was religious? My father used to say "jesus h christ" alot when the vicar came tapping on the door with outstretched hand escpecially if the holy slacker had been round the neibourhood cadging drink. And, where did you get your values from if you didn’t get them from religion? the TV? Jerry Springer? your wolf pack? If you try to treat others in the same way as you would wish them to treat yourself, it gets you through without all that mystic bullshine. Oh! and never top post it’s very rude. Would you like to know Saddam Hussein was secular? Ooooh, that’s gotta hurt. Why should it hurt??? Hussain is a twat who developed methods of torture not seen since those inventive churchmen of the Spanish inquesition and their christian heritage, he deserves everything he gets. I hope he is sentenced to life imprisonment with daily visits from jehova’s witnesses who will try and convert his ass to the ‘one true god’ till he screams for mercy. LW

ROFLMAO!  Great reply, LW! Shalom, Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You should have some interesting excuses for the parts where God demands that Hebrews stone each other for breaking the sabbath law; stone each other for doing sex with the wrong people or animals; stone brides for failing to bleed as virgins on the wedding night; stone people for committing adultery; stone rebellious sons; stone people for blasphemy; conquer distant towns and exterminate the men, keeping the women and children in slavery; exterminate 8 tribes of people in Canaan — man, woman, and child; burn sexually active daughters of priests; poison wives suspected of adultery; …?

I can respond from the Christian perspective only. Each item mentioned here is covered by a proper understanding of the difference between Law and Gospel and the role each plays in our lives. For those interested in further study on this topic, I can point to no better source then:   Proper Distinction Between Law and Gospel   by Carl Walther   ISBN: 0570032482 Walther was the founder of the LCMS.

Response:

Oh, another disgruntled secular lost soul spouts off, as if he invented "hating religion".

Well xtianity would be more intersting if it was based on Tolkeins books. Gandalf = Moses Golem = Judas and just as meaningfull. Tell me,…what gang of wolves were you raised by?

Me, I was raised by apes, primates, not wolves. Although wolves are considered gentle and caring parents. Unless you read the bible which as expected gets just about everything wrong. I just love these lost souls who have taken the benefits of being raised by a Christian heritage, and then spit on it and throw it up like arrogant ingrates.

If christian church leaders had been succesful in the suppresion of knowlege it would still be the dark ages and our heritage would be plowing fields for our fuedal overlords from dawn to dusk and paying 10% of all earnings as tithe to keep some fat arsed bishop in wenches and wine, with perhaps an occaisional witch burning to break the monotony. People were forced to live in this manner for centuries thanks to chritian heritage. The vatican even today is worth around 6 billion dollars which even without a christian heritage I find gross hypocrosy when viewing the latest famine pictures on the news. Tell me…how far back do you have to go in your family history before you have to tell me someone was religious?

My father used to say "jesus h christ" alot when the vicar came tapping on the door with outstretched hand escpecially if the holy slacker had been round the neibourhood cadging drink. And, where did you get your values from if you didn’t get them from religion? the TV? Jerry Springer? your wolf pack?

If you try to treat others in the same way as you would wish them to treat yourself, it gets you through without all that mystic bullshine. Oh! and never top post it’s very rude. Would you like to know Saddam Hussein was secular? Ooooh, that’s gotta hurt.

Why should it hurt??? Hussain is a twat who developed methods of torture not seen since those inventive churchmen of the Spanish inquesition and their christian heritage, he deserves everything he gets. I hope he is sentenced to life imprisonment with daily visits from jehova’s witnesses who will try and convert his ass to the ‘one true god’ till he screams for mercy. LW

Response:

on 08 Dec 2004 in alt.atheism,  dropped trou, farted, whirled, then shouted: "From a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." — 2 Timothy 3:15-17

Get ‘em while they’re young! — Vic Sagerquist aa#2011 Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department

Response:

"From a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." — 2 Timothy 3:15-17

Did God also write the parts of the Bible that mention dragons, unicorns, and satyrs? Isaiah 43:20 The beasts of the field shall honor me, the dragons and the ostriches: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give to drink to my people, my chosen. Isaiah 34:7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. Isaiah 13:21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there. –Billy

Response:

The bible offers parables with time-honoured values and social lessons. Take from it what you want. Christianities "old testament" are the jewish stories. Jesus comes in with the New Testament. You could say Christianity is like Judaism 2.0

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Bible was not dictated by god to mortal scribes; it was written and embellished by some 40 authors – claimed prophets, kings, politicians and clergymen in a variety of styles over a 2500 year period. Non of the present books of the Bible are the original documents. It was written  in Hebrew, Greek (vernacular), Aramaic, Syriac, Coptic and Latin. On stone, wood, clay, goatskin and papyrus. It is an amalgam of history, tales, folklore, mythology and fiction. It is so abstruse that almost any interpretation that one likes can be claimed. It is a strange mixture of diverse human documents, metaphors, allegories, history and fables and irreconcilable notions. Inspired? The Bible is not even intelligent. It is not even good craftsmanship, but is full of absurdities and contradictions. If this is the word of God, God is in serious need of mental help. "Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." – Isaac Asimov The Bible authors thought the earth was flat and was centered in the Middle East. This flat earth had a dome like sky.  Beyond the clouds was heaven and the home of the Gods. And hell was not too far underground. The earth was the center of the Universe and the Sun, Planets and Stars revolved around the earth. Modern astrology now knows the Earth, Planets and Stars in our Universe revolve around the Sun and that our Universe is but a spec in a vast Universe of trillions of stars and planets scattered over an unknown distance of millions of light years. If the Jesus story is true, why did Jesus only communicate through errant disciples with a miniscule portion of the worlds population for only a relatively few years? Man has existed for over 100,000 years. If man, who God supposedly created, can communicate clearly via radio, TV and telephone to the entire world, why can’t God communicate his demands and wishes clearly and directly by an equally efficient manner to the entire world? Why communicate with a document like the Bible produced over a period of 2500 years by errant men that is obtuse and contradictory?  There is NO OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE that the Bible is the word of God. Why should we believe it? And why didn’t God communicate with mankind 150,000 years ago when man first walked the earth instead of letting man go without guidance for 150,000 years? There are other Holy books such as the Bhagavad Gita, the Tora, the Koran, the Pali cannon, the Vedas etc. Which, if any, is the true word of a real God? If all men go to a heaven or hell for eternity why does God not let them communicate with their children and friends to assure them of who is the real God, and that heaven and hell actually do exist? Why keep this a secret? If God wants us to follow his rules and obey him, why does he permit such a multitude of God beliefs and confusion as to which is the real God and rules? This whole Jesus/Bible/religious scenario appears to be pure fable written by errant men – NOT the words of any God. — Bill

Response:

"From a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." — 2 Timothy 3:15-17 Did God also write the parts of the Bible that mention dragons, unicorns, and satyrs?

If that is indeed the correct translation, then, yes. Isaiah 43:20 The beasts of the field shall honor me, the dragons and the ostriches: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give to drink to my people, my chosen.

The NIV, calls them jackals and owls instead of dragons and ostriches. The KJKV, NASB & ESV calls them jackals and ostrches. It would appear that this is merely an issue of incorrect translation on the part of the KJV, which you are quoting. The same analysis can be applied to Isaiah 34:7 & Isaiah 13:21 For more information on Translation, I would recommend reading:   http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2203

Response:

The Bible was not dictated by god to mortal scribes;

For the Lutheran view on this topic, I would recommend reading:   http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2521 And the report by the Commission on Theology and Church Relations which can be found at:   http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/CTCR/gospel_scripture.pdf

Response:

The bible offers parables with time-honoured values and social lessons.

I especially like the time-honored values and social lessons of Deuteronomy 20: 10-20.

Response:

said in alt.atheism: Jesus comes in with the New Testament. You could say Christianity is like Judaism 2.0

And, like Microsoft, religion never gets "dot zero" versions correct. — "The doctrine that the earth is neither the center of the universe nor immovable, but moves even with a daily rotation, is absurd, and both philosophically and theologically false, and at the least an error of faith." – Catholic Church’s decision against Galileo Galilei (random sig, produced by SigChanger) rukbat at verizon dot net

Response:

The bible offers parables with time-honoured values and social lessons. Take from it what you want.

I will almost certainly purchase a copy on the event of my becoming a sheep farmer or genocidal dictator. LW

Response:

You should have some interesting excuses for the parts where God demands that Hebrews stone each other for breaking the sabbath law; stone each other for doing sex with the wrong people or animals; stone brides for failing to bleed as virgins on the wedding night; stone people for committing adultery; stone rebellious sons; stone people for blasphemy; conquer distant towns and exterminate the men, keeping the women and children in slavery; exterminate 8 tribes of people in Canaan — man, woman, and child; burn sexually active daughters of priests; poison wives suspected of adultery; …? –Slade

Response:

Oh, another disgruntled secular lost soul spouts off, as if he invented "hating religion". Tell me,…what gang of wolves were you raised by? I just love these lost souls who have taken the benefits of being raised by a Christian heritage, and then spit on it and throw it up like arrogant ingrates. Tell me…how far back do you have to go in your family history before you have to tell me someone was religious? And, where did you get your values from if you didn’t get them from religion? the TV? Jerry Springer? your wolf pack? Would you like to know Saddam Hussein was secular? Ooooh, that’s gotta hurt.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The bible offers parables with time-honoured values and social lessons. Take from it what you want. I will almost certainly purchase a copy on the event of my becoming a sheep farmer or genocidal dictator. LW

Response:

Yeah, sort of like Secular 0.0?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – said in alt.atheism: Jesus comes in with the New Testament. You could say Christianity is like Judaism 2.0 And, like Microsoft, religion never gets "dot zero" versions correct. — "The doctrine that the earth is neither the center of the universe nor immovable, but moves even with a daily rotation, is absurd, and both philosophically and theologically false, and at the least an error of faith." – Catholic Church’s decision against Galileo Galilei (random sig, produced by SigChanger) rukbat at verizon dot net

Response:

Pfff…, like the Torah or the Koran doesn’t have ugly passages? Are you new to religion? Perhaps you need to re-read one of my other comments – TAKE FROM IT WHAT YOU WILL. You sound like someone who has carelessly thrown the baby out with the bathwater. You didn’t like a couple of snippets, so you rejected it entirely outright. Way to go ingrate.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The bible offers parables with time-honoured values and social lessons. I especially like the time-honored values and social lessons of Deuteronomy 20: 10-20.

Response:

What a moron you are.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, another disgruntled secular lost soul spouts off, as if he invented "hating religion". Tell me,…what gang of wolves were you raised by? I just love these lost souls who have taken the benefits of being raised by a Christian heritage, and then spit on it and throw it up like arrogant ingrates. Tell me…how far back do you have to go in your family history before you have to tell me someone was religious? And, where did you get your values from if you didn’t get them from religion? the TV? Jerry Springer? your wolf pack? Would you like to know Saddam Hussein was secular? Ooooh, that’s gotta hurt. The bible offers parables with time-honoured values and social lessons. Take from it what you want. I will almost certainly purchase a copy on the event of my becoming a sheep farmer or genocidal dictator. LW

Response:

Let’s see:- Saddam Hussein is secular; George Bush is Christian. Saddam did not attack America; George sent bombers to Iraq. Saddam killed not a single American; George has killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. Saddam told the truth about not having WMD; George lied and then lied about lying. Saddam now languishes in prison, though convicted of no crime; George lives in a palace with all the trappings of power though guilty of the same crimes that caused the Nazis to be hung by the neck until dead. Saddam Hussein is secular; George Bush is a Christian. Glad you pointed that out.  It certainly clarifies the issues. –Slade

Response:

Pfff…, like the Torah or the Koran doesn’t have ugly passages? Are you new to religion? Perhaps you need to re-read one of my other comments – TAKE FROM IT WHAT YOU WILL. You sound like someone who has carelessly thrown the baby out with the bathwater. You didn’t like a couple of snippets, so you rejected it entirely outright. Way to go ingrate.

Umm..doesn’t it sound a bit far out that the supreme creator of the entire Universe stopped by this tiny planet to tell an ancient goat-herder that his decendents would be the chosen elite of God? And, to prove it, he had to cut off a piece of his dick! Shalom, Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The bible offers parables with time-honoured values and social lessons. I especially like the time-honored values and social lessons of Deuteronomy 20: 10-20.

Response:

The Bible was not dictated by god to mortal scribes; it was written and embellished by some 40 authors – claimed prophets, kings, politicians and clergymen in a variety of styles over a 2500 year period. Non of the present books of the Bible are the original documents. It was written  in Hebrew, Greek (vernacular), Aramaic, Syriac, Coptic and Latin. On stone, wood, clay, goatskin and papyrus. It is an amalgam of history, tales, folklore, mythology and fiction. It is so abstruse that almost any interpretation that one likes can be claimed. It is a strange mixture of diverse human documents, metaphors, allegories, history and fables and irreconcilable notions. Inspired? The Bible is not even intelligent. It is not even good craftsmanship, but is full of absurdities and contradictions. If this is the word of God, God is in serious need of mental help. "Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." – Isaac Asimov The Bible authors thought the earth was flat and was centered in the Middle East. This flat earth had a dome like sky.  Beyond the clouds was heaven and the home of the Gods. And hell was not too far underground. The earth was the center of the Universe and the Sun, Planets and Stars revolved around the earth. Modern astrology now knows the Earth, Planets and Stars in our Universe revolve around the Sun and that our Universe is but a spec in a vast Universe of trillions of stars and planets scattered over an unknown distance of millions of light years. If the Jesus story is true, why did Jesus only communicate through errant disciples with a miniscule portion of the worlds population for only a relatively few years? Man has existed for over 100,000 years. If man, who God supposedly created, can communicate clearly via radio, TV and telephone to the entire world, why can’t God communicate his demands and wishes clearly and directly by an equally efficient manner to the entire world? Why communicate with a document like the Bible produced over a period of 2500 years by errant men that is obtuse and contradictory?  There is NO OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE that the Bible is the word of God. Why should we believe it? And why didn’t God communicate with mankind 150,000 years ago when man first walked the earth instead of letting man go without guidance for 150,000 years? There are other Holy books such as the Bhagavad Gita, the Tora, the Koran, the Pali cannon, the Vedas etc. Which, if any, is the true word of a real God? If all men go to a heaven or hell for eternity why does God not let them communicate with their children and friends to assure them of who is the real God, and that heaven and hell actually do exist? Why keep this a secret? If God wants us to follow his rules and obey him, why does he permit such a multitude of God beliefs and confusion as to which is the real God and rules? This whole Jesus/Bible/religious scenario appears to be pure fable written by errant men – NOT the words of any God. — Bill

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Bible was not dictated by god to mortal scribes; it was written and embellished by some 40 authors – claimed prophets, kings, politicians and clergymen in a variety of styles over a 2500 year period. Non of the present books of the Bible are the original documents. It was written  in Hebrew, Greek (vernacular), Aramaic, Syriac, Coptic and Latin. On stone, wood, clay, goatskin and papyrus. It is an amalgam of history, tales, folklore, mythology and fiction. It is so abstruse that almost any interpretation that one likes can be claimed. It is a strange mixture of diverse human documents, metaphors, allegories, history and fables and irreconcilable notions. Inspired? The Bible is not even intelligent. It is not even good craftsmanship, but is full of absurdities and contradictions. If this is the word of God, God is in serious need of mental help. "Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." – Isaac Asimov The Bible authors thought the earth was flat and was centered in the Middle East. This flat earth had a dome like sky.  Beyond the clouds was heaven and the home of the Gods. And hell was not too far underground. The earth was the center of the Universe and the Sun, Planets and Stars revolved around the earth. Modern astrology now knows the Earth, Planets and Stars in our Universe revolve around the Sun and that our Universe is but a spec in a vast Universe of trillions of stars and planets scattered over an unknown distance of millions of light years. If the Jesus story is true, why did Jesus only communicate through errant disciples with a miniscule portion of the worlds population for only a relatively few years? Man has existed for over 100,000 years. If man, who God supposedly created, can communicate clearly via radio, TV and telephone to the entire world, why can’t God communicate his demands and wishes clearly and directly by an equally efficient manner to the entire world? Why communicate with a document like the Bible produced over a period of 2500 years by errant men that is obtuse and contradictory?  There is NO OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE that the Bible is the word of God. Why should we believe it? And why didn’t God communicate with mankind 150,000 years ago when man first walked the earth instead of letting man go without guidance for 150,000 years? There are other Holy books such as the Bhagavad Gita, the Tora, the Koran, the Pali cannon, the Vedas etc. Which, if any, is the true word of a real God? If all men go to a heaven or hell for eternity why does God not let them communicate with their children and friends to assure them of who is the real God, and that heaven and hell actually do exist? Why keep this a secret? If God wants us to follow his rules and obey him, why does he permit such a multitude of God beliefs and confusion as to which is the real God and rules? This whole Jesus/Bible/religious scenario appears to be pure fable written by errant men – NOT the words of any God.

Bill, don’t you know that thinking for yourself and discovering the truth is frowned on by every religion on this planet?  ;) Shalom, Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Bill

Response:

"From a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." — 2 Timothy 3:15-17

Response:

@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com: "From a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." — 2 Timothy 3:15-17

Of course.  How silly of us not to realize that by stating that it is the work of god, the bible must really be the work of god. — Woden "religion is a socio-political system for controlling people’s thoughts, lives and actions based on ancient myths and superstitions, perpetrated through generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."

Response: