Christianity QA

Question:

this tale in alt.atheism The call to prayer, lasting one to two minutes, has been an Islamic tradition for 1,400 years. Historically sung from the minaret of a mosque, today the call often is a recording played over loudspeakers. This is my objection. Someone doing the traditional call from a minaret is an interesting cultural phenomenon; the ratty, blaring and usually very obnoxious pa systems used are just jarring.

When I loved in San Francisco, the Catholic Church that was seven blocks from us used recorded bells.  If I could hear them clearly, I pitied the people who lived closer. I’m suprised muslims would cheapen their cultural heritage this way – I’m even more surprised they are being granted a variance to be annoying when loudspeakers have nothing to do with the tradition.

Recorded call to prayer, recorded bells, mircrophones for the preacher.. times change.  I’m sure some people were outraged by Guttenberg’s bible. In the end, they’re all just myths anyway. — Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5 Ezekiel 13:20 "Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows"

Response:

I’m suprised muslims would cheapen their cultural heritage this way – I’m even more surprised they are being granted a variance to be annoying when loudspeakers have nothing to do with the tradition. Recorded call to prayer, recorded bells, mircrophones for the preacher.. times change.  I’m sure some people were outraged by Guttenberg’s bible.

Gutenberg’s Bible doesn’t sound shitty from blocks away and disturb the peace. If these nuts get a variance to blast out sounds for their nonexistent sky daddy, I should be able to blast out speed metal just as loud. Using real bells or an actual human voice to call to prayer is probably a reasonable thing to tolerate if only because they are traditional and common, and comparatively inoffensive.  They should only be tolerated if artificial when the sound is of reasonable quality and similar to or identical to the original. In the end, they’re all just myths anyway.

Indeed.  But people shouldn’t get special rights to disturb the peace just because they believe in some demented myth.

Response:

in alt.atheism I’m suprised muslims would cheapen their cultural heritage this way – I’m even more surprised they are being granted a variance to be annoying when loudspeakers have nothing to do with the tradition. Recorded call to prayer, recorded bells, mircrophones for the preacher.. times change.  I’m sure some people were outraged by Guttenberg’s bible. Gutenberg’s Bible doesn’t sound shitty from blocks away and disturb the peace. If these nuts get a variance to blast out sounds for their nonexistent sky daddy, I should be able to blast out speed metal just as loud.

Agreed.  I was addressing the hypocrasy of the Christians who want to here their bells. Using real bells or an actual human voice to call to prayer is probably a reasonable thing to tolerate if only because they are traditional and common, and comparatively inoffensive.  They should only be tolerated if artificial when the sound is of reasonable quality and similar to or identical to the original.

Y’know, in this modern world, we have a thing called "alarm clocks." Seems to me that if church starts at 0900, you can wake you asses up in time.  I don’t need my boss to call me everyday to get me to work ontime! In the end, they’re all just myths anyway. Indeed.  But people shouldn’t get special rights to disturb the peace just because they believe in some demented myth.

The funny thing is I’ve heard the call to prayer in Islamic countries, and it is quite beautiful, especially compared to clanging bells. — Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5 Ezekiel 13:20 "Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows"

Response:

"If they’re going to live in America, why can’t they be more American?"

Yes, immigrants should be more American. So what’s this about speaking that foreign import language English anyway? — Mark K. Bilbo  -  a.a. #1423 EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion "Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism, because it is a merger of State and corporate power." – Mussolini

Response:

The call to prayer, lasting one to two minutes, has been an Islamic tradition for 1,400 years. Historically sung from the minaret of a mosque, today the call often is a recording played over loudspeakers.

This is my objection. Someone doing the traditional call from a minaret is an interesting cultural phenomenon; the ratty, blaring and usually very obnoxious pa systems used are just jarring. I’m suprised muslims would cheapen their cultural heritage this way – I’m even more surprised they are being granted a variance to be annoying when loudspeakers have nothing to do with the tradition.

Response:

About 10 years ago either one of the colleges in Azusa, California, I believe it was — probably Azusa Pacific College — or a Christian church about a mile and a half away from my residence started playing loud music on Easter morning around 6:00 a.m. with enough volume that everybody in Azusa and Glendora were woken up — some 25 square miles or so. I had no idea what it was and ignored it yet over the next couple of days there was talk among neignbors about the numerous civil complaints that police received about "some Christian Church" that had blared music and incomprehensible words from loudspeakers that morning. The college or college defended their actions by in effect claiming that the United States is a Christian nation and they were only calling Christians to go to the church of their choice to celebrate Easter — which is a fertility festival of Isis, ironically enough. The City didn’t fine or sanction the college or church but next year despite numerous complaints the previous year, the college or church did it again, waking everyone up at six in the morning.  That time more people knew what the noise was about and many more civil complaints were officially filed or telephoned in to the various police departments (in Azusa and Glendora.)  And that put a stop to it. The audacity of the religious is amazing at times.  Here’s coverage of another religious cult’s intolerance. -=- Monday, April 26, 2004 Cultures collide in diverse Hamtramck Uproar over Islamic call to prayer pits tolerance, tradition By Ron French and Kim Kozlowski / The Detroit News Robin Buckson / The Detroit News Traditionally Polish Hamtramck has become a melting pot, with immigrants from Europe, Asia and Africa settling there.; Olinger; Vlahovljak About call to prayer The Islamic call to prayer is performed five times a day: at dawn, noon, late afternoon, dusk and evening (the exact times can vary). Across most of the United States, the call is done inside the mosque; in much of the rest of the world, it is done outside the mosque, often through loud speakers. English translation of the Call to Worship: "God is great" (four times); "I testify there is no other God but God" (twice); "I testify Muhammad is the messenger of God" (twice); "Come and pray" (twice); "Come and flourish" (twice); "God is great "(twice); "There is no God but God" (once). Translation by Masud Khan, secretary of Al-Islah Islamic Center, Hamtramck Call to prayer The Hamtramck City Council is expected to give final approval next Tuesday to an amendment to the city’s noise ordinance to permit the Bangladeshi al-Islah mosque in Hamtramck to sound the adhan, or traditional call to prayer, via loudspeakers five times each day. Is this a good decision? HAMTRAMCK – From her front porch, Alice Dembowski has watched her city change, one tidy house at a time. "Chinese, Polish, Bosnian, Polish, Bengali," she recites, her finger moving down the block. "They were all Polish at one time. "I’ve made friends. I go to their weddings. (But) we’re losing our tradition and I’m getting mad," Dembowski said. "If they’re going to live in America, why can’t they be more American?" Next month, Hamtramck will become one of the few cities in the United States where the Islamic call to prayer is broadcast onto public streets. The impact of that decision is reverberating across the nation. Loudspeakers on an old brick building in Hamtramck have become a symbol of the struggle between tolerance and tradition, and raise questions about what it means to be American. Bisera Vlahovljak, a Muslim who moved to Hamtramck 10 years ago from Bosnia said the call to prayer is about religious freedom. "This is why I came to America," she said. "I think more people should be respectful of others’ traditions." But Jamil Olinger, who lives near the Al-Islah Islamic Center, said the call to prayer "gets on my nerves sometimes. "I hear (the prayers) at night," Olinger said. "I try not to pay attention to it, but it does bug me." City Council President Karen Majewski said the controversy is about "change." "People are hearing something in this story that may have very little to do with Hamtramck," Majewski said. "It has to do with change." Tuesday night, the five-member City Council is expected to give final approval to an amendment to Hamtramck’s noise ordinance that will regulate the calls to prayer. Twenty days later, the amendment will go into effect, and the al-Islah Islamic Center will be allowed to broadcast its call to prayer over loudspeakers. The call to prayer, lasting one to two minutes, has been an Islamic tradition for 1,400 years. Historically sung from the minaret of a mosque, today the call often is a recording played over loudspeakers. Although it is a public event in other parts of the world, mosques in the United States generally give the call to prayer inside their walls. In Hamtramck, the call will be made live, five times a day, between 6 a.m. and 10 p.m., said Masud Khan, associate imam and secretary at al-Islah. While only one mosque requested permission to broadcast the calls to prayer, the ordinance would allow the city’s other two mosques to follow suit if they wish. The ordinance applies to any kind of religious announcement at any house of worship. "We are just praising God and calling our brothers to prayer," Khan said. "I’ve been surprised by the reaction." Calls stay inside Most mosques even in heavily Muslim Dearborn do not broadcast calls to prayer. Imam Hassan Qazwini, spiritual leader of the area’s largest mosque, the Islamic Center of America in Detroit, said his mosque has a call to prayer inside the mosque. "The reason we don’t do that is because our neighbors are not Muslim," Qazwini said. "Raising the call for prayer outdoors would be purposeless. The point behind raising the call for prayer is to invite neighbors to come and pray." For 15 years, Imam Mohamed Musa was the spiritual leader of the American Muslim Society, the only known mosque in the area that broadcasts over a loudspeaker five daily calls to prayer. The Dearborn mosque has issued the call to local Muslims for more than 15 years because most of the people in the neighborhood are Muslims. Only once did a neighbor complain, Musa said. Musa’s current post, the Islamic Unity Center in Bloomfield Hills, does not issue prayer calls because there aren’t enough Muslims living nearby. But he does support the Hamtramck mosque’s plan. "Every religion has its different ways to call for the prayer. In Christianity, they ring bells. In Judaism, they blow the horn," Musa said. "If there is no violation of the law, we have to accept each other and respect each other. We are neighbors in this great country. It is a very unique country because every person has his own religion and he can practice it. We are proud of that as Muslims, and non-Muslims should be proud of that also." Hamtramck didn’t set a maximum decibel level for the calls to prayer. Police will respond to complaints over the volume of the loudspeakers in the same way they now respond to complaints of loud cars or music, Majewski said. "This is a ground-breaking effort, and I hope it will set a precedent for other communities across the nation," said Ibrahim Hooper, spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, a civil rights organization in Washington, D.C. "It sends a tremendously positive message to the rest of the world at a time when we face severe criticism. America supports religious diversity, particularly religious support for its Muslim citizens." City of immigrants That such a controversy would arise in Hamtramck is not surprising. The city has become Michigan’s Ellis Island, with immigrants from Europe, Asia and Africa settling there. In the 2000 census, 41 percent of Hamtramck residents said they were born outside the United States; English is the only language spoken in less than half of the city’s homes; one-third of the 23,000 residents report speaking English "less than very well." Between 1990 and 2000, the city’s Arab population jumped more than fivefold, while its traditional Polish population dropped by more than a third. Shabad Ahmed, the city’s first Muslim City Council member, estimates that Hamtramck’s population is now more than one-third Muslim. Hamtramck also is a city with a long and colorful history of political dissent. Many elections are followed immediately by efforts to recall the winners. Currently, there is a petition drive to recall three school board members. But even that tradition has bowed to reality: Petitions are written in Polish, Bosnian, Arabic and English. "People are so passionate about the city’s character, whatever they may imagine it to be," Majewski said. "Here, it matters who your neighbors are and what you hear outside your window. It’s a glorious thing and a maddening thing as well." Lawsuits threatened Residents are circulating petitions to ban the calls to prayer and are threatening lawsuits. Donald Herzog, professor of law and political science at the University of Michigan, said he doubts a legal challenge could stop the calls to prayer. That hasn’t stopped the outcry from people who view the broadcast onto public streets as forcing Islam on non-Muslims. Council members have received hundreds of e-mails and telephone calls from across the United States, complaining about the ruling. Council member Ahmed said people don’t realize that less than half of the Muslims in Hamtramck are from the Middle East. Most are from Bangladesh, with other large Muslim contingents from Bosnia and Somalia. "When there’s something new, people are afraid to change," Ahmed said. "But as a government official, I don’t see we could do anything differently." The Rev. Stanley Ulman lives in a home and is the pastor of the Catholic church, St. Ladislaus, across the street from al-Islah Islamic Center. He thinks the discussion about the prayer … read more »

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