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For Wiccans interested in Christianity

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Re: For Wiccans interested in Christianity Reply to: [1] Brad Filippone Organization: Chebucto Community Net Newsgroups: [2] alt.religion.wicca Followup to: [3] newsgroup(s) References: : There is no such thing as a Wiccan that is interested in Christianity. I take it you haven’t met Brenda here yet. Brad

Hello there Brad…… I tend to see connections and similar points in many faiths. A Wiccan can easily see the God in Jesus and the Goddess in Mary…as many who follow Santeria do. YOu do not have to follow the conservative fundie take on the faith to be a Christian…nor do you need to see Wicca as a faith on the other side of the see-saw. Claim your faith. Don’t be a Wiccan just cause it is opposite Christianity in your eyes. Brenda a faery witch…who follows a Wiccan construct and ethical base and a Christian …learning towards the Gnostic .

Response:

: There is no such thing as a Wiccan that is interested in Christianity. I take it you haven’t met Brenda here yet. Brad

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: There is no such thing as a Wiccan that is interested in Christianity. I take it you haven’t met Brenda here yet.

I don’t know. I only read posts that are in response to my own. I also have the attention span of a monkey, or some sort of furry animal.

Response:

There is no such thing as a Wiccan that is interested in Christianity.

That’s because, a few nouns aside, they are the same religion Think about what kind of being is being followed. How can one have a relationship with an infinitely superior being [Almighty God] without

faith? You have them over for coffee. Christians are too busy trying to figure

out Its words from millennia ago to stop and listen to It now. The only perfect Christian was nailed to a cross 2,000 years ago. Do you

know of anyone else nominating themselves for a Meritorious Medal of Perfection-hood?

And if your hateful religion of intolerance and murder did this to its own god, why would a sane person want any part of it? Kind of like that classic movie scene in "The Ten Commandments" where

Charlton Heston, playing Moses, comes down from mount Sinai to find a whole lotta trouble in the camp and proclaims "There is no freedom without the law".

I thought John Ashcroft said that. — Talesin- The Bad Boy of Witchcraft ™ http://home.kc.rr.com/pendragonsloft "If we are here to help others, exactly what are others here for?" - George Carlin

Response:

Most of us have, at one time or another, explored Christianity at considerable length. I thank you for the list. I am familiar with some of the material you have cited. At this time, I will make one reading suggestion for you. "The Time Falling Bodies Take to Light: Mythology, Sexuality and the Origins of Culture" by William Irwin Thompson. While some of Thompson’s archaeological arguments have been pretty thoroughly refuted by recent discovery, I think the basic thrust of his argument is still sensible. It is a pretty good read. What follows is my own opinion, certainly does not attempt to represent the views of any other individual or groups of individuals, and is not even particularly Wiccan in viewpoint. All religions construct models of the universe and its relationship to the divine. Models cannot be constructed without symbol and must never be confused with the reality they attempt to represent. I do believe that there is a "Divine Power" or creative force … I also believe that in a real sense I can never understand that power. I can experience aspects of its operation. I can feel its presence. But I cannot understand it. I can discuss it only through the use of symbol. "But the map is not the territory." Christians present one set of maps. Wiccans present a another. Which map one chooses is, I feel, a matter of convenience or taste. Monotheists attempt to simplify the map by rolling everything up under one heading labelled "God". Polytheists find it useful to categorize aspects of the divinity and identify specific "gods", and achieve in some ways a greater degree of precision and expression of nuance. In my experience there are advantages and disadvantages to either approach. Difficulty emerges when through laziness or arrogance human beings decide their map IS the truth, rather than a tool for exploring experience and achieving a relationship with that "Divine Power". They key thing, then, is to find something with which one resonates … something that moves you. I think you have found what works for you, at least at present. It doesn’t work for me, however. And I really don’t believe the divinity cares what you call it, just call it. Many Christians tell me that I am damned to roast forever because I do not choose to use their map of the territory. I simply do not believe that. We can never really know the answers to all those big questions. So, as Rilke said, we need to learn to love the questions themselves … Happy trails … — NW "Judgment comes from experience … experience comes from poor judgment."

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The following book list is provided for Wiccans interested in exploring Christianity: 1. APOLOGETICS 1.1 Why Christianity is True Ready With An Answer: For the Tough Questions About God. (1997) John Ankerberg and John Weldon. Harvest House Publishers: Eugene, OR. ISBN: 1-56507-618-4 The Signature of God: Astonishing Biblical Discoveries. (1996) Grant R. Jeffrey. Frontier Research Publications, Inc.: Toronto, CA. ISBN: 0-921714-32-7 Skeptics Answered: Handling Tough Questions About the Christian Faith. (1997) D. James Kennedy. Multnomah Books: Sisters, OR. ISBN: 1-57673-148-0. In Defense of the Faith: Biblical Answers to Challenging Questions. (1996) Dave Hunt. Harvest House Publishers: Eugene, OR. ISBN: 1-56507-495-5. Why I Believe. (1980) D. James Kennedy. Word Publishing, Dallas. ISBN: 0-8499-2943-1 History and Christianity: A Vigorous, Convincing Presentation of the Evidence for a Historical Jesus. (1964) John Warwick Montgomery. Bethany House Publishers: Minneapolis, Minnesota. ISBN: 0-87123-890-X Mere Christianity. (1943) C.S. Lewis. Touchstone: New York, New York. ISBN: 0-684-82378-0 The Bible Code. (1997) Michael Drosnin. Touchstone: New York, New York. ISBN: 0-684-84973-9 1.2 The Christian World View Compared to Others The Universe Next Door: A Basic Worldview Catalog. 3rd Ed. (1997) James W. Sire. InterVarsity Press: Downers Grove, IL. ISBN: 0-8308-1899-5 The Compact Guide to World Religions. (1996) Dean C. Halverson, General Editor. Bethany House Publishers: Minneapolis, Minnesota. ISBN: 1-55661-704-6 Understanding the Times: The Religious Worldviews of Our Day and the Search for Truth. (1991) David A. Noebell. Harvest House Publishers: Eugene, OR. ISBN: 1-56507-2685 Disarming the Secular Gods: How to Talk So Skeptics Will Listen. (1989) Peter C. Moore. InterVarsity Press: Downers Grove, IL. ISBN: 0-8308-1270-9 What If Jesus Had Never Been Born? The Positive Impact of Christianity in History. (1994) D. James Kennedy and Jerry Newcombe. Thomas Nelson Publishers: Nashville, TN. ISBN: 0-7852-8261-0 The Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail: The Attack On Christianity and What You Need to Know to Combat It. (1996) D. James Kennedy and Jerry Newcombe. Thomas Nelson Publishers: Nashville, TN. ISBN: 0-7852-7177-5 What If the Bible Had Never Been Written? (1998) D. James Kennedy and Jerry Newcombe. Thomas Nelson Publishers, Nashville. ISBN: 0-7852-7154-6 1.3 Sins and Virtues A Way of Escape: Experiencing God’s Victory Over Temptation. (1999) Broadman & Holman Publishers: Nashville, TN. ISBN: 080541763-X The Seven Deadly Sins: Jewish, Christian, and Classical Reflections on Human Psychology. (1997) Solomon Schimmel. Oxford University Press: New York. ISBN: 0-19-511945-2 The Seven Deadly Sins Today. (1978) Henry Fairlie. University of Notre Dame Press: Notre Dame. ISBN: 0-268-01698-4 The Seven Deadly Sins and the Seven Cardinal Virtues (1902) James Stalker. NavPress: Colorado Springs, CO. ISBN: 1-57683-092-6 1.4 Christianity, Origins, and the Theory of Evolution Darwin’s Leap of Faith: Exposing the False Religion of Evolution. (1998) John Ankerberg and John Weldon. Harvest House Publishers: Eugene, OR. ISBN: 1-56507-657-5 The Collapse of Evolution. 3rd. Ed. (1997) Scott M. Huse. BakerBooks: Grand Rapids, MI. ISBN: 0-8010-5774-4 Darwin’s Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution. (1996) Michael J. Behe. The Free Press: NY. ISBN: 0-684-82754-9 Darwin On Trial. (1993) Phillip E. Johnson. InterVaristy Press: Downer’s Grove, IL. ISBN: 0-8308-1324-1 Evolution: A Theory In Crisis. (1985) Michael Denton. Adler & Adler: Bethesda, MD. ISBN: 0-917561-52-X The Philosophical Scientists. (1985) David Foster. Barnes and Noble, NY. ISBN 0-88029-624-0 The Genesis Flood: The Biblical Record and Its Scientific Implications. (1961) By John C. Whitcomb and Henry M. Morris. Baker Book House: Grand Rapids, Michigan. ISBN: 0-8010-9501-8. 1.5 Culture, Politics, and Education The End of Sanity: Social and Cultural Madness in America. (1997) Martin L. Gross. Avon Books: NY. ISBN: 0-380-97319-7 Slouching Towards Gomorrah: Modern Liberalism and American Decline. (1996) Robert H. Bork. Regan Books: NY, NY. ISBN: 0-06-039163-4 America’s God and Country: Encyclopedia of Quotations. (1996) William J. Federer. FAME Publishing, Inc.: Coppell, TX. ISBN:1-880563-05-3 Dumbing Down Our Kids: Why American Children Feel Good About Themselves But Can’t Read, Write, or Add. (1995) Charles J. Sykes. St. Martin’s Press, NY. ISBN: 0-312-13474-6 The Public Orphanage: How Public Schools Are Making Parents Irrelevant. (1995) Eric Buehrer. Word Publishing: Dallas, TX. ISBN: 0-8499-3532-6 The Things That Matter Most. (1993) Cal Thomas. HarperCollins Publishers/Zondervan: NY, NY. ISBN: 0-06-017083-2 Culture Wars: The Struggle to Define America. (1991) James Davison Hunter. Basic Books: NY, NY. ISBN: 0-465-01533-6 Now Is The Dawning of the New Age New World Order. (1991) Dennis L. Cuddy. Hearthstone Publishing: Oklahoma City, OK. ISBN:1-879366-22-3 The Long War Against God: The History and Impact of the Creation/Evolution Conflict. (1989) Henry M. Morris. Baker Book House: Grand Rapids, MI. ISBN: 0-8010-6257-8 The Closing of the American Mind: How Higher Education Has Failed Democracy and Impoverished the Souls of Today’s Students. (1987) Allan Bloom. Simon and Schuster: NY, NY. ISBN: 0-671-47990-3 1.6 Additional Issues To Hell and Back: Life After Death – Startling New Evidence. (1993) Maurice S. Rawlings, M.D. Thomas Nelson Publishers: Nashville, TN. ISBN 0-8407-6758-7 Cult Watch: What You Need to Know About Spiritural Deception. (1991) John Ankerberg and John Weldon. Harvest House Publishers: Eugene, OR. ISBN 0-89081-851-7 The Invisible War: The Panorama of the Continuing Conflict Between Good and Evil. (1965) Donald Grey Barnhouse. Zondervan Publishing House: Grand Rapids, MI. ISBN: 0-310-20481 In the Lion’s Den: A Shocking Account of Presectuion and Martyrdom of Christians Today and How We Should Respond. (1997) Nina Shea. Broadman and Holman Publishers: Nashville, TN. ISBN: 0-8054-6357-7 China – The Last Superpower: The Dragon’s Hunger for World Conquest. (1997) Joseph Lam. New Leaf Press: Green Forest, AR. 2. PROPHECY 2.1 General References The Prophecy Knowledge Handbook: All the Prophecies of Scripture Explained in One Volume. (1990) John F. Walvoord. ChariotVictor Publishing: Colorado Springs, CO. ISBN: 0-89693-509-4 All the Messianic Prophecies of the Bible: A Compendium of All Prophecies in Scripture Concerning the Promised Messiah. (1973) Herbert Lockyer. ZondervanPublishingHouse: Grand Rapids, MI. ISBN: 0-310-28091-5 2.2 Classics Things To Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology. (1958) J. Dwight Pentecost. Zondervan Publishing House: Grand Rapids, MI. ISBN: 0-310-30890-9 Jesus Is Coming: God’s Hope for a Restless World. (1989 [originally published 1878]) William E. Blackstone. Kregel Publications: Grand Rapids, MI. ISBN: 0-8254-2275-2 2.3 Books by

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Um, could you enlighten me on what any of this has to do with what I just said?

It appears that the cission of the posted is so blinded by faith that will concentrate on only part of a reply that seems most important. —

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [snip] "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." JOHN 8:32 Good Christian books listed and described at: http://www.hometown.aol.com/mrgoodsalt/index.htm You seem to have forgotten one thing. Some of us were Christians at one time or another and when it comes to Christianity know as much as or more than those who are trying to convert us do. I know that. I find people like this sprinkled all across the different news groups: atheists, anarchists, postmodernists, goths, asatru, etc. They seem to have decided that Christianity wasn’t for them and went in search for something else.

Exactly. If what they have found makes them a better person than they were before why would they go back to a path that didn’t work for them? No one path is the right one for everybody. The important thing about a religion shouldn’t be the name or label that has been given to it but rather the enlightenment that it provides its followers. Many preach but few actually listen and understand. JJ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." JOHN 8:32 Good Christian books listed and described at: http://www.hometown.aol.com/mrgoodsalt/index.htm

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The following book list is provided for Wiccans interested in exploring

Christianity: 1. APOLOGETICS 1.1 Why Christianity is True [snip] Christianity is not a boolean value. Christianity = True, returns the value False. Christianity by itself, returns the value False. We’ve seen this guy on alt.religion.asatru. He is polite and

inquizitive, but ultimately on a conversion quest. "Polite and inquizitive"? I’m flattered. :) As for the conversion part… Yes, I would be happy if you converted.

However, I view my role more as a Johnny-apple-seed and an interested observer. I want to know what people from other perspectives think and why. I also like to sprinkle seedlings as I go – for anyone who may be interested. What you do or don’t do with those seedlings is totally up to you. I’m not going to put a gun to your head and demand your conformity. True love must be freely chosen, or it’s not love. Like I said, polite and inquizitive, but on a conversion quest. As a poet, I

see the truth of your methodology, and powerful it is. Your religion and your god are also powerful. Those who do not understand it’s power, tend to get caught up with it, without realizing what they are doing. The manipulator often says "Think for yourself." Indeed: Gen 3:1-13 1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. 8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. 9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? 12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. 13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. (KJV) "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." JOHN 8:32 Good Christian books listed and described at: http://www.hometown.aol.com/mrgoodsalt/index.htm

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Think about what kind of being is being followed. How can one have a relationship with an infinitely superior being [Almighty God] without faith? You have them over for coffee. Christians are too busy trying to figure out Its words from millennia ago to stop and listen to It now. The only perfect Christian was nailed to a cross 2,000 years ago. Do you know of anyone else nominating themselves for a Meritorious Medal of Perfection-hood?

Um, could you enlighten me on what any of this has to do with what I just said? Besides, the most violently destructive group of human beings have been the atheistic communists. Look what they did:

Jesus was a communist. Read the book. Please do not post in HTML. T9W

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As for the conversion part… Yes, I would be happy if you converted. So would my deluded SIL, *sighes* Many Wiccans converted from

Christanity because of its flaws. However, I view my role more as a Johnny-apple-seed and an interested

observer. Well this group certainly can get interesting, though often discussions

do not relate to the selected path. In fact many of the regs make sure to indicate that thay are not Wicca, I want to know what people from other perspectives think and why. I also

like to sprinkle seedlings as I go – for anyone who may be interested. What you do or don’t do with those seedlings is totally up to you. I’m not going to put a gun to your head and demand your conformity. True love must be freely chosen, or it’s not love. Well demanding here does not work well at all. I also do not believe

many (if any) are interesrted in your reading list. *shrugs* We have a twit that posts a very flawed reading list for beginnibg Wiccans, what makes it more interesting is the only religion afliation acknowledged is being a Christian. "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." JOHN 8:32 I suspect you do not know the truth about the Bible, though indeed truth can

sometimes set one free. It should be noted that Christanity requires one giving up freedom or fave Hell (which Wiccans do not believe exist and the Bible does not say exists as commonly described ifat all). The idea that obedience to God’s law is a form of enslavement is a very common perception. However, from the Christian perspective, we are already enslaved to sin and obedience to God’s law is what liberates us from bondage. Kind of like that classic movie scene in "The Ten Commandments" where Charlton Heston, playing Moses, comes down from mount Sinai to find a whole lotta trouble in the camp and proclaims "There is no freedom without the law". You might like the following quote: The Seven Deadly Sins and the Seven Cardinal Virtues (1902) James Stalker. NavPress: Colorado Springs, CO. ISBN: 1-57683-092-6 p.89-91 "Wisdom is the foremost of the virtues. It is the lamp bearer showing the way to the rest. Its principal business is to identify the goal to which they should all strive, and the point to which the whole course of life should tend." "Perhaps it might be said of many that they have no ideal. And this is their condemnation. They have no object in life; they have never reflected why they are alive; their course is determined, not by their own choice, but by the blind forces of appetite within and of conventionality without. Such may truely be said to be dead while they live; for surely in such a vast and perilous enterprise as the voyage of life the first duty of everyone who claims to be human is to be aware where he or she is going. But from another point of view, it may be said that every human being has a personal ideal, whether aware of it or not. In every mind, consciously or unconsciously, there forms itself by degrees some supreme desire to which the thoughts are ever tending and toward the attainment of which the endeavors are ever set." "…the essential thing is that we should know and avow what we intend to be and to do in this world, and in which port we intend to arrive when the voyage is finished. This is wisdom." " ‘What is the chief end of man?’ … ‘Man’s chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy Him forever.’ " "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." JOHN 8:32 Good Christian books listed and described at: http://www.hometown.aol.com/mrgoodsalt/index.htm

Response:

There is no such thing as a Wiccan that is interested in Christianity.

Response:

Think about what kind of being is being followed. How can one have a relationship with an infinitely superior being [Almighty God] without

faith? You have them over for coffee. Christians are too busy trying to figure out Its words from millennia ago to stop and listen to It now. T9W

Response:

Think about what kind of being is being followed. How can one have a

relationship with an infinitely superior being [Almighty God] without faith? You have them over for coffee. Christians are too busy trying to figure out

Its words from millennia ago to stop and listen to It now. The only perfect Christian was nailed to a cross 2,000 years ago. Do you know of anyone else nominating themselves for a Meritorious Medal of Perfection-hood? Besides, the most violently destructive group of human beings have been the atheistic communists. Look what they did: Death by Government (1994) R.J.Rummel. Transaction Publishers: New Brunswick, USA. ISBN: 1-56000-927-6 Forward by Irving Louis Horowitz "All societies are in their nature imperfect artifacts. But those that hold as their highest value the sanctity of the person are different in their nature and essence from those who see their ultimate mission as obedience and punishment for the transgressors."

OT Grandma…..

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Question:

Ohohoh,it sure runs in the family ))) This is great !! Kiss Anna – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Got a letter from Grandma the other day. She writes… Dear Sweetie: The other day I went up to a local Christian Book Store and saw a "HONK IF YOU LOVE JESUS" bumper sticker. I was feeling particularly sassy that day because I had just come from a thrilling choir performance, followed by a thunderous prayer meeting. So, I bought the sticker and put it on my bumper. Boy, I’m glad I did!! What an uplifting experience followed! I was stopped at a red light at a busy intersection, just lost in thought about the Lord and how good he is…and I didn’t notice the light had changed. It’s a good thing someone else loves Jesus because if he hadn’t honked, I’d never had noticed! I found that LOTS of people love Jesus! While I was sitting there, the guy behind me started honking like crazy!!!! He leaned out of his window and screamed: "For the love of GOD! GO!! GO!! Jesus Christ, GO!!! What an exuberant cheerleader he was for Jesus! Everyone started honking!! I just leaned out of my window and started waving and smiling at all these loving people. I even honked my horn a few times to share in the love! There must have been a man from Florida back there because I heard him yelling something about a "sunny beach". I saw another guy waving in a funny way with only his middle finger stuck up in the air. I asked my teenage grandson in the back seat what that meant, he said it was probably a Hawaiian good luck sign or something. Well, I’ve never met anyone from Hawaii, so I leaned out the window and gave him the good luck sign back. My grandson burst out laughing. He was enjoying this religious experience too!! A couple of the people were so caught up in the joy of the moment they got out of their cars and started walking towards me, I bet they wanted to pray or ask what Church I attended, but this is when I noticed the light had changed. So, I waved to all my sisters and brothers grinning, and drove on through the intersection. I noticed I was the only car that got through the intersection before the light changed again. I felt kind of sad I had to leave them after all the love we shared, so I slowed the car down, leaned out of the window and gave them all the Hawaiian good luck sign one last time as I drove away. Praise the Lord for such wonderful folks! Love, Grandma — TC3

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Got a letter from Grandma the other day. She writes… Dear Sweetie: The other day I went up to a local Christian Book Store and saw a "HONK IF YOU LOVE JESUS" bumper sticker. I was feeling particularly sassy that day because I had just come from a thrilling choir performance, followed by a thunderous prayer meeting. So, I bought the sticker and put it on my bumper. Boy, I’m glad I did!! What an uplifting experience followed! I was stopped at a red light at a busy intersection, just lost in thought about the Lord and how good he is…and I didn’t notice the light had changed. It’s a good thing someone else loves Jesus because if he hadn’t honked, I’d never had noticed! I found that LOTS of people love Jesus! While I was sitting there, the guy behind me started honking like crazy!!!! He leaned out of his window and screamed: "For the love of GOD! GO!! GO!! Jesus Christ, GO!!! What an exuberant cheerleader he was for Jesus! Everyone started honking!! I just leaned out of my window and started waving and smiling at all these loving people. I even honked my horn a few times to share in the love! There must have been a man from Florida back there because I heard him yelling something about a "sunny beach". I saw another guy waving in a funny way with only his middle finger stuck up in the air. I asked my teenage grandson in the back seat what that meant, he said it was probably a Hawaiian good luck sign or something. Well, I’ve never met anyone from Hawaii, so I leaned out the window and gave him the good luck sign back. My grandson burst out laughing. He was enjoying this religious experience too!! A couple of the people were so caught up in the joy of the moment they got out of their cars and started walking towards me, I bet they wanted to pray or ask what Church I attended, but this is when I noticed the light had changed. So, I waved to all my sisters and brothers grinning, and drove on through the intersection. I noticed I was the only car that got through the intersection before the light changed again. I felt kind of sad I had to leave them after all the love we shared, so I slowed the car down, leaned out of the window and gave them all the Hawaiian good luck sign one last time as I drove away. Praise the Lord for such wonderful folks! Love, Grandma

– TC3

Response:

Any christian Foster Parents here?

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -mykjk wrote: > "Neal Feldman" <silverst…@home.net> wrote in message > news:3A766DB1.69B7F8AD@home.net… > > mykjk wrote: > > > I am interested to find out what the religious affiliation all of > you > > > are… we are baptists, anyone else a baptist? I know of some really > > > great websites for christians, if anyone is interested… let me know by > > > responding to this post… please, do not reply directly to me… thank > > > you… > > > Julie > > > mykjk > > As anyone knows who visits my website, I am a practicing Wiccan of the > sole > > practitioner model. > > My personal belief structures do not support any personified deities… > but > > instead natural forces in the worlds (both material and spiritual) and the > > general universe. I see the masculine and feminine aspects of these > powers > > and that which they affect. As for afterlife I believe in non-linear > > non-karmic reincarnation, which is to say since spirits do not deal with > time > > as we do, it is non-linear to them, the past, present or future are just > > different areas of the same room as it were, your ‘next’ life could be in > the > > ‘past’, the ‘future’ or even concurrently in the ‘present’. I believe > each > > time a spirit enters into a material form, be it human, animal, or > possibly > > even vegetable, it does so to experience and learn certain things. This > > explains newborns who die within seconds… that is all the spirit needed > to > > experience from that life. This also explains why we would still be able > to > > have spirits with an ever increasing population… and should the > population > > radically decrease we would not have mass hauntings all around. > > Can I prove any of it to anyone else? Likely not. That is the point of > > faith, after all. If it requires proof it is not faith. Then again I do > not > > attempt to force my spiritual beliefs onto anyone by force of law. As > such I > > have no burden of proof in that regard. > > You asked. > yes, i asked… but just one thing that my belief has that yours does not… > proof.

Oh indeed? And where would that be? Hmmmm? > I would like to challange you (I personally dare you) to research the bible > and prove it is wrong or that it is fiction… let me know what you think…

I have no need to meet such a ludicrous burden of proof. It is YOU who are claiming it to be ‘proof’ That YOU can prove it to be entirely accurate and factual in EVERY respect… Please let me know when you think YOU can accomplish YOUR burden of proof, ok? Please explain to me how the world was flooded to the mountaintops yet the Japanese, Chinese, African, etc civilizations all around the world at this time knew nothing of it. Please explain this massive migration of Jews from Egypt and the decimation of Pharoah’s armies at the Red Sea etc with absolutely no record of it anywhere but in the judeo-christian book of myths. Please explain why your bible is censored. Yes, censored. Lilith is excised completely. You remember Lilith, don’t you? Adam’s FIRST wife… the EQUAL one, who was banished, so the tales go, for asserting her equality so that the inferior Eve could be created to fill the place. Oh, when Cain was allegedly booted out of the presence of Adam and Eve, they being the allegedly sole other humans on Earth, he went to the Land of Nod and took himself a wife… ok… do we have duelling gods and creators here? Where did the Land of Nod come from? Who bore Cain’s wife? Please explain the TWO inconsistent creation myths in the bible. And we still have not touched on the fact that most of the religious stuff in the bible you cannot prove to be factual. Sure there are actual events of a nonreligious nature mentioned… in The Wizard of Oz a real state (Kansas) is mentioned… does that mean too that there are winged monkeys in reality flying around the edges of the Emerald City of Oz? Do I REALLY need to go on? I did not intend in my response to trash your faith, Julie… but you attempted to trash mine… if you want to go to war on it, fine… I studies theology and know far more than most christians about their own religion, especially the things they would like to ignore. Next move is yours, dear. — ============================================================= Home Page: http://members.home.net/silverstorm/ We will never rest until Gestapo CPS is completely abolished!

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"Bananapudding8" <bananapuddi…@cs.com> wrote in message

news:20010131015624.03885.00003638@ng-md1.news.cs.com… > Yes, there are some Christian foster parents out here. I have been a foster > parents now for almost 5 years. I find it to be very rewarding, and I love > children and that helps. I am very interested in the Websites you mentioned. > Look forward to hearing from you soon

http://communities.msn.com/WalkingwithJesus – this is a nice site… it has many informative type articles… and it also has chat rooms there… they are family type people… www.worthychat.com - this is only a chat site as far as i know… but it is very friendly… http://www.botcw.com/index.html - this is the ‘best of the christian web’ it has a good search engine… also has many other great features… i enjoy the chat room there! Hope these help you out!!! Julie mykjk

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -mykjk wrote: > > > yes, i asked… but just one thing that my belief has that yours does > not… > > > proof. > > Oh indeed? And where would that be? Hmmmm? > > > I would like to challange you (I personally dare you) to research the > bible > > > and prove it is wrong or that it is fiction… let me know what you > think… > > I have no need to meet such a ludicrous burden of proof. It is YOU who are > > claiming it to be ‘proof’ That YOU can prove it to be entirely accurate > and > > factual in EVERY respect… > > Please let me know when you think YOU can accomplish YOUR burden of proof, > ok? > I am merely saying that if you go through the motions of actually trying to > prove the bible false, you will find the proof for its truth…

Oh really? Since when? There is nothing proveable in the bible regarding the religious claims… only the actual events… see my Oz example. > Many scientists have done this very thing… and they have all become > christians > after doing so… So again, i say, try it, you might like what you find… > )

That others do something means nothing to me in this regard. I know of many christians who have become nonchristians and many nonchristians who have examined as you suggest and remained nonchristians. You have yet to prove otherwise. > > Please explain to me how the world was flooded to the mountaintops yet > the > Japanese, Chinese, African, etc civilizations all around the world at this > > time knew nothing of it > > Please explain this massive migration of Jews from Egypt and the > decimation of > > Pharoah’s armies at the Red Sea etc with absolutely no record of it > anywhere but > > in the judeo-christian book of myths. > Actually, there is proof of this… they have books that were written of > it… the egyptians…. saw this on Discovery Channel…

Oh? News to me. Maybe you could be a bit more specific and substantive in your presentation of evidence? > > Please explain why your bible is censored. Yes, censored. Lilith is > excised > > completely. You remember Lilith, don’t you? Adam’s FIRST wife… the > > EQUAL > > one, who was banished, so the tales go, for asserting her equality so that > the > > inferior Eve could be created to fill the place. > HUH???

Ah… seems I know more about the lore and myths of your own faith than you do. Not surprising… I find that this is the case with the vast majority. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Oh, when Cain was allegedly booted out of the presence of Adam and Eve, > they > > being the allegedly sole other humans on Earth, he went to the Land of Nod > and > > took himself a wife… ok… do we have duelling gods and creators here? > Where > > did the Land of Nod come from? Who bore Cain’s wife? > > Please explain the TWO inconsistent creation myths in the bible. > > And we still have not touched on the fact that most of the religious stuff > in > > the bible you cannot prove to be factual. Sure there are actual events of > a > > nonreligious nature mentioned… in The Wizard of Oz a real state (Kansas) > is > > mentioned… does that mean too that there are winged monkeys in reality > flying > > around the edges of the Emerald City of Oz? > HUH????

What is your huh for? The comment on the Land of Nod and Cain, or my analogy about the Land of Oz? > > Do I REALLY need to go on? > > I did not intend in my response to trash your faith, Julie… but you > attempted > > to trash mine… > Neal, i did not mean to ‘trash’ your faith, I did not say anything about > your faith, except that you could not prove yours… and you even said that > you could not prove it… right?

And likewise you cannot prove yours. That was my point. > you said that you could not prove it to > anyone… I merely restated what you said… that is not trashing your > faith, unless you also trashed your faith!

Nope… you said mine could not be proven but yours could. It has yet to be, even though thousands of years of attempts have been made. > I am merely challenging you to find proof that the bible is false,

I have no burden to prove your bible is false. It is you who have the burden of proving it is true. Until then it is a collection of myths and parables like Bullfinches’ Mythology and Aesop’s Fables. > > if you want to go to war on it, fine… I studies theology and > > know far more than most christians about their own religion, especially the > > things they would like to ignore. > > Next move is yours, dear. > I do not want to war, I would rather drop it, then fight with you… It is > not my fight , it is the Holy Spirits fight… I pray you do not fight with > Him… I pray that you would open your heart and except His free gift to > you. > Jesus loves you! yes you!

If you insist. — ============================================================= Home Page: http://members.home.net/silverstorm/ We will never rest until Gestapo CPS is completely abolished!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > yes, i asked… but just one thing that my belief has that yours does not… > > proof. > Oh indeed? And where would that be? Hmmmm? > > I would like to challange you (I personally dare you) to research the bible > > and prove it is wrong or that it is fiction… let me know what you think… > I have no need to meet such a ludicrous burden of proof. It is YOU who are > claiming it to be ‘proof’ That YOU can prove it to be entirely accurate and > factual in EVERY respect… > Please let me know when you think YOU can accomplish YOUR burden of proof, ok?

I am merely saying that if you go through the motions of actually trying to prove the bible false, you will find the proof for its truth… Many scientists have done this very thing… and they have all become christians after doing so… So again, i say, try it, you might like what you find… ) > Please explain to me how the world was flooded to the mountaintops yet the > Japanese, Chinese, African, etc civilizations all around the world at this time > knew nothing of it > Please explain this massive migration of Jews from Egypt and the decimation of > Pharoah’s armies at the Red Sea etc with absolutely no record of it anywhere but > in the judeo-christian book of myths.

Actually, there is proof of this… they have books that were written of it… the egyptians…. saw this on Discovery Channel… > Please explain why your bible is censored. Yes, censored. Lilith is excised > completely. You remember Lilith, don’t you? Adam’s FIRST wife… the EQUAL > one, who was banished, so the tales go, for asserting her equality so that the > inferior Eve could be created to fill the place.

HUH??? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Oh, when Cain was allegedly booted out of the presence of Adam and Eve, they > being the allegedly sole other humans on Earth, he went to the Land of Nod and > took himself a wife… ok… do we have duelling gods and creators here? Where > did the Land of Nod come from? Who bore Cain’s wife? > Please explain the TWO inconsistent creation myths in the bible. > And we still have not touched on the fact that most of the religious stuff in > the bible you cannot prove to be factual. Sure there are actual events of a > nonreligious nature mentioned… in The Wizard of Oz a real state (Kansas) is > mentioned… does that mean too that there are winged monkeys in reality flying > around the edges of the Emerald City of Oz?

HUH???? > Do I REALLY need to go on? > I did not intend in my response to trash your faith, Julie… but you attempted > to trash mine…

Neal, i did not mean to ‘trash’ your faith, I did not say anything about your faith, except that you could not prove yours… and you even said that you could not prove it… right? you said that you could not prove it to anyone… I merely restated what you said… that is not trashing your faith, unless you also trashed your faith! I am merely challenging you to find proof that the bible is false, you may do this, or you may refuse, your choice… I am always looking for more proof of my faith, …. I can get you some if you like… My pastor could help me, help you if you like… if you want to go to war on it, fine… I studies theology and > know far more than most christians about their own religion, especially the > things they would like to ignore. > Next move is yours, dear.

I do not want to war, I would rather drop it, then fight with you… It is not my fight , it is the Holy Spirits fight… I pray you do not fight with Him… I pray that you would open your heart and except His free gift to you. Jesus loves you! yes you! Julie mykjk

Response:

Yes, there are some Christian foster parents out here. I have been a foster parents now for almost 5 years. I find it to be very rewarding, and I love children and that helps. I am very interested in the Websites you mentioned. Look forward to hearing from you soon

Response:

i m interested

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"Neal Feldman" <silverst…@home.net> wrote in message

news:3A766DB1.69B7F8AD@home.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> mykjk wrote: > > I am interested to find out what the religious affiliation all of you > > are… we are baptists, anyone else a baptist? I know of some really > > great websites for christians, if anyone is interested… let me know by > > responding to this post… please, do not reply directly to me… thank > > you… > > Julie > > mykjk > As anyone knows who visits my website, I am a practicing Wiccan of the sole > practitioner model. > My personal belief structures do not support any personified deities… but > instead natural forces in the worlds (both material and spiritual) and the > general universe. I see the masculine and feminine aspects of these powers > and that which they affect. As for afterlife I believe in non-linear > non-karmic reincarnation, which is to say since spirits do not deal with time > as we do, it is non-linear to them, the past, present or future are just > different areas of the same room as it were, your ‘next’ life could be in the > ‘past’, the ‘future’ or even concurrently in the ‘present’. I believe each > time a spirit enters into a material form, be it human, animal, or possibly > even vegetable, it does so to experience and learn certain things. This > explains newborns who die within seconds… that is all the spirit needed to > experience from that life. This also explains why we would still be able to > have spirits with an ever increasing population… and should the population > radically decrease we would not have mass hauntings all around. > Can I prove any of it to anyone else? Likely not. That is the point of > faith, after all. If it requires proof it is not faith. Then again I do not > attempt to force my spiritual beliefs onto anyone by force of law. As such I > have no burden of proof in that regard. > You asked.

yes, i asked… but just one thing that my belief has that yours does not… proof. I would like to challange you (I personally dare you) to research the bible and prove it is wrong or that it is fiction… let me know what you think… Julie mykjk

Response:

I am interested to find out what the religious affiliation all of you are… we are baptists, anyone else a baptist? I know of some really great websites for christians, if anyone is interested… let me know by responding to this post… please, do not reply directly to me… thank you… Julie mykjk

Response:

mykjk wrote: > I am interested to find out what the religious affiliation all of you > are… we are baptists, anyone else a baptist? I know of some really > great websites for christians, if anyone is interested… let me know by > responding to this post… please, do not reply directly to me… thank > you… > Julie > mykjk

As anyone knows who visits my website, I am a practicing Wiccan of the sole practitioner model. My personal belief structures do not support any personified deities… but instead natural forces in the worlds (both material and spiritual) and the general universe. I see the masculine and feminine aspects of these powers and that which they affect. As for afterlife I believe in non-linear non-karmic reincarnation, which is to say since spirits do not deal with time as we do, it is non-linear to them, the past, present or future are just different areas of the same room as it were, your ‘next’ life could be in the ‘past’, the ‘future’ or even concurrently in the ‘present’. I believe each time a spirit enters into a material form, be it human, animal, or possibly even vegetable, it does so to experience and learn certain things. This explains newborns who die within seconds… that is all the spirit needed to experience from that life. This also explains why we would still be able to have spirits with an ever increasing population… and should the population radically decrease we would not have mass hauntings all around. Can I prove any of it to anyone else? Likely not. That is the point of faith, after all. If it requires proof it is not faith. Then again I do not attempt to force my spiritual beliefs onto anyone by force of law. As such I have no burden of proof in that regard. You asked. — ============================================================= Home Page: http://members.home.net/silverstorm/ We will never rest until Gestapo CPS is completely abolished!

Response:

Harry Potter

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Question:

Several months ago, there were some very interesting posts on the Harry Potter series on this NG, and I was wondering if anyone had saved them. I’m having a discussion with a friend about these books and their suitability for children, and wanted some resources. Also, wasn’t there an Episcopal Church that conducted something of a children’s service in Harry Potter style last year? If anyone has details or remembrance, I’d appreciate it. mattowen

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Check groups.google.com and type in HARRY POTTER Episcopal, and you should be able to find the thread. Earl

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I have not had time to read the books myself but I have banned her from reading them.

You haven’t had time to read the books, but have banned your daughter from reading them? I think it’s a shame that you have stopped your daughter from READING, when so few do today. Including apparently you, since your DAUGHTER has had "time to read them" and you haven’t.

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If your daughter is reading Harry Potter books and you don’t like it, but want to encourage her interest in reading, and want to work with her interest in fantasy literature, I would suggest 1) J.R.R. Tolkien’s THE HOBBIT

Agreed. A terrific book. and THE LORD OF THE RINGS trilogy,

That may be a bit ambitious for the average kid. 2) or C.S. Lewis’ NARNIA series,

They should have read those already. I can’t imagine any parent *not* having bought those for their kids and/or having read the books to them. 3) or perhaps with some guidance, T.H. White’s ONCE AND FUTURE KING

Hmmm… Okay, I think. (basis for the Disney film THE SWORD IN THE STONE (G)

Gack! Stock Disney cartoon with characters having the same names as some people in the Arthurian legends. I wouldn’t touch it with a 10 foot pole, but then I loathe Disney and all its works. , and musical CAMELOT (PG-13)).

Kinda racy, don’t you think? Tolkien’s books were also turned into the animated films THE HOBBIT,

I didn’t like it a bit, but that was just me. Apparently new films are being produced of LORD OF THE RINGS

Check out www.lordoftherings.com

Response:

Caps in this message are for book/ film titles. Having been on the other side of this argument when I was young, I would read before banning and then, if it is in your view bad, you can articulate why it is bad. To explain: When I was growing up and had similar issues over reading material with my parents, I responded well to any prohibition only when they were reading what I was and made a reasoned argument with me why something was not for me to read. Having read them they could point to specific scenes/ language/ attitudes that were unethical/ questionable/ too complex for me to fully understand. If they banned something outright, well, that tended to make it all the more interesting for me to read, so I often read whatever anyway in hidden defiance. If your daughter is reading Harry Potter books and you don’t like it, but want to encourage her interest in reading, and want to work with her interest in fantasy literature, I would suggest 1) J.R.R. Tolkien’s THE HOBBIT, and THE LORD OF THE RINGS trilogy, 2) or C.S. Lewis’ NARNIA series, 3) or perhaps with some guidance, T.H. White’s ONCE AND FUTURE KING (basis for the Disney film THE SWORD IN THE STONE (G), and musical CAMELOT (PG-13)). Tolkien’s books were also turned into the animated films THE HOBBIT, and LORD OF THE RINGS with sequel RETURN OF THE KING. There are also Cliff Notes on Tolkien’s books which may be helpful in structuring some discussions about his books and the meanings. The videos may encourage interest in the books, or the other way around. Apparently new films are being produced of LORD OF THE RINGS, so there may be a higher media interest and a resulting interest in the young (of all ages) in being a part of the likely hype. C.S. Lewis, and Tolkien, by the way, were Christian. I hope this was of some use to you. Good luck with the books (or the videos). Best for the holidays. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would like to everyone’s opinion on the Harry Potter books. My oldest daughter has read them and when does it is like she goes into a fantasy world where she lives Harry Potter. A friend of hers got her a gift with the Harry Potter name on it and it looks like rune stones. I have not had time to read the books myself but I have banned her from reading them. Any comments? Thanks Tammy Cowdery

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I would like to everyone’s opinion on the Harry Potter books. My oldest daughter has read them and when does it is like she goes into a fantasy world where she lives Harry Potter. A friend of hers got her a gift with the Harry Potter name on it and it looks like rune stones. I have not had time to read the books myself but I have banned her from reading them. Any comments? Thanks Tammy Cowdery

While I am not a parent, and I understand the concerns you might have, really there is nothing at all to worry about. I for one think it is wonderful that a series of books can have "cult" status amongst children (and adults it must be said!) The difference with these books is that they are not the literary equivalent of a Big Mac and fries, and, for once, their popularity is due to their being of genuine quality. With regard to your daughter’s going off into a fantasy world when she reads them … well, don’t all kids go off into a fantasy world? That’s part of being a kid. The novelty will pass soon enough. These books are a "fad" at the moment, and while they are good books, in two years time the fad will be over, and older (and much wiser ) kids will laugh at themselves for following such childish trends. Reading between the lines of your comment "… it looks like rune stones …", I gather you are concerned about what is perceived as "witchcraft", or occult. From the little I know of real witchcraft, it has nothing to do with Harry’s world – and it seems to be more concerned with the natural powers of nature and maintaining the balance between nature and humanity’s use of it. Perhaps someone more knowledgable on the subject could elaborate on or refute this opinion. Nevertheless, this mythical Western picture of witchcraft that is brought to life in the Harry Potter books is pure and wonderful fiction, even though it glosses over the darker and perverse fears of pre-industrial humanity – what does the broomstick symbolise, for example, and why are evil witches seen to be riding upon them? Obviously a hatred and fear of women engendered by a celibate and frustrated male church hierarchy brought about this myth. That aside, sanitizing the broomstick by transforming it into the sorcorcial equivalent of a cricket bat in a game which both boys and girls play, is harmless and delightful. That is another thing you notice about the Harry Potter books. Although J K Rowling makes the mysogynist error of making the hero Harry and the guardian figure of Professor Dumbledore as males, she nevertheless brings women and girls into the centre of her stories, especially with Hermione, the academically brilliant comrade of Harry, who actually gets him out of all sorts of scrapes with her inventiveness and quick thinking. Rowling also makes Hogwarts, the wizard school, co-educational. And with a more or less equal number of male and female professors. When you look past the magic bits, the book is about people and society, warts and all; and it is especially about kids growing up, making mistakes and learning from them. I think it’s good that Rowling is beginning to address the issues of teenage sexuality (very discreetly) as Harry and Hermione and Ron grow up. Wizards and witches, it seems, are not immune from the ravages of puberty. I can’t think of a children’s book that actually walks through these very real issues in such a way as to make them seem completely normal, yet still treats them as issues of importance. At the same time she does not treat them as all-encompassing, but as a difficult, awkward, embarrassing and wonderful part of life that we all have to get through so we can concentrate on the really good bits of being young. Harry Potter is not a Christian book in any sense. There are oblique christological types in it, such as Cedric Diggory and Sirius Black – but such figures appear in any piece of western literature you care to name. There is no overt ‘Christ-figure’ like the lion Aslan in the Chronicles of Narnia, there are merely mortal heros, and the heros are as fallible as anyone. The books are humanist in intent, with a flavour of Christianity born of western culture and literary tradition. What they do say is that ultimate good is achieved with a price. Sacrifice of all kinds is demanded to achieve the greater good. People will scheme in the background and betray you. You will suffer for your beliefs. You will stuff up sometimes and take the consequences, and you will learn from your mistakes. It’s all part of life. Your daughters will realise this as they go along life’s journey. If you are worried by the books, read them yourself. I can guarantee you will love them – they operate on much more than a childish level. And you can then share your enthusiasm with your daughters – and then perhaps encourage them to read other fantasy kid’s books such as C.S. Lewis’ Narnia Chronicles, Tolkien’s "The Hobbit", Susan Cooper’s "The Dark is Rising", and best of all, Ursula Le Guin’s "Wizard of Earthsea" Trilogy. These fantasy novels are much, much more than they appear. If you are going to ban reading, then ban the really dark, hopeless stuff such as "Catcher in the Rye" – which is a brilliant book for middle-aged people like me, but definitely not for kids. I was made to read that horror at the tender age of thirteen by my school. It sent me into a flat-spin for three years. The parents of the school complained, but I don’t know if they took it off the syllabus. The Harry Potter books talk about life, light and dark. But even in the dark moments, there is still fun and humour. There is never hopelessness. That’s what kids need to hear. Whatever horrible thing happens to you, from being persecuted by a teacher, or having a row with your best friend, or getting on detention (trivial things by adult standards, but catastrophic happenings for a kid), there is always tomorrow, a new challenge, the chance to make a difference (even if you screw up badly trying), and the rest of your life to look forward to. Read the books, share them with your kids. :-)

Response:

I would like to everyone’s opinion on the Harry Potter books.

I’ve read all but one of ‘em. Good stories, well written. Letting a kid read ‘em are a *lot* better than letting them watch tv. Nothing particularly anti-Christian in them, but nothing particularly pro- Christian, either. They’re pretty much GP secular literature. The bottom line for me is that I let my kids read the books, but I don’t buy any of the associated junk. If the kids want to daydeam about what it would be like to ride a broom and play quiddich I have no problem with it, but I don’t need to reinforce it as though the idea had some greater validity. They’re just stories.

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another perspective, not sure i agree, but good food for thought What about Harry Potter? By Dr. Curt Brannan If you have visited a bookstore recently you are no doubt aware of what is being dubbed the "Harry Potter phenomenon." This emerging series has become a topic of conversation, review and debate in homes, schools, and the media. Having examined only the first of the three books that have been released, I would not suggest I am a Harry Potter expert. Still, I feel compelled to share my reflections and increasing concern about Harry and his world. In case you have missed the story line, Harry Potter is a young boy orphaned by the murder of his parents. As the first book opens Harry is living with his aunt and uncle and their obnoxious son. The whole family treats him hatefully and unfairly. Ultimately Harry discovers he is a warlock and attends Hogwart’s School of Witchcraft and Wizardry. Here he develops his skills, learning spells and the art of witchcraft. According to the author, Joanne Rowling, the series will eventually include seven books each chronicling a year in Harry’s life at the school. The popularity of this series is nothing short of astonishing. New York Times reviewer Richard Bernstein has said these are "turning out to be among the best selling books in history." A search of the Internet will reveal several hundred Harry Potter sites ranging from companies advertising the books for sale, to a site developed by a 14 year old fan telling of his own fascination with the books and encouraging others to read them. And Harry Potter reviews are everywhere. Newspaper articles, periodicals, TV interviews; wherever we turn, from serious literary criticism to fad enthusiasts, Harry Potter is the subject. Some critics have categorized the series as mythopoetic literature at its best, declaring them on par with the writings of J.R.R. Tolkin (Lord of the Rings) and C.S. Lewis (The Chronicles of Narnia). Recently, the books have won honors and awards as great children’s literature. There are many reports from parents whose children have shunned reading, who are overjoyed because Harry Potter has captured the interest of their child. At the same time there are detractors. Some are saying the books are dark with themes that reflect moral ambiguity and alienation. Others are mounting campaigns to keep schools from using them in the classroom. I doubt any of this is news to you. With children in the home it is unlikely that most TBCS families are unaware either of the phenomenon or the growing debate surrounding the impact and merit of these books. What are we to think? What about Harry Potter? Christians are coming down on both sides of this issue. Some well-known and respected Christian commentators have essentially placed their stamp of approval on the series. Others are offering warnings against allowing children to read them at all. I must admit that controversies of this nature are difficult to unwind. Definitive answers aren’t immediately apparent. Of course, the easy way is just to join a camp, quote the respected authorities that reflect your position and dismiss those who take a different tact as being either uniformed or narrow. But the easy way finally abdicates personal responsibility. Where concern and recognition of responsibility exists, there is also a growing sense that we still must somehow evaluate and pass judgment on the Harry Potter phenomena. Because of this sense of responsibility within the school setting and questions being raised by several TBCS parents, our administrative team has discussed, and I have attempted some initial research into, this question. I offer the thoughts that follow for consideration by the TBCS family. Clearly parents must make the decision for their children, but the nature of our school requires a clear and reasoned response to this cultural steamroller. My own survey of the first in this series, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone, has raised several caution flags in my thinking. The first of these has to do with the rush to approval because this material is exciting to children and encourages them to read. What parent wouldn’t want his child to read more? Approval at this level, however, begs the question of content. That is, the fact a child is excited and reading does not authenticate or reflect the quality of a book. Of course, it’s always a joy to see a child who has not been a "reader," suddenly find the delight of exploring new ideas or the stimulation of a good story. But be careful. Just as eating junk food may be a child’s first choice, the value and ultimate fallout associated with its impact on his/her health must always be a concern for parents. This is not to say Harry Potter isn’t fun and exciting to read. It is! However, what children read is as important as that they read precisely because of the impact reading makes on life. Reading is powerful. It molds and develops the mind and imagination. It tends to shape our view of the world in which we live. For this reason we need to probe the question of content carefully. So what about content? This is the point where the Harry Potter question becomes critical for parents and school. I would remind you that Christian reviewers are divided in their criticism, but again I find reason for concern. Several writers have pointed out that, like Tolkin, and Lewis, Rowlings takes up the classical conflict between good and evil. Harry Potter is "good." He is a warlock, but his spells and magic are mostly used positively in the conflict with evil. If you have read Lord of the Rings or The Chronicles of Narnia you will know that there are wizards and witches as well as magic in them. But there is a critical difference. In both Lewis and Tolkin the story takes place in a parallel world. In form these are mythopoetic writings. The battle between good and evil is carried on in a parallel world disassociated with the real one in which the reader lives. Here there is no confusion in the child’s mind (or adults either – I love them) that these are mythical characters in a mythical place. In the Tolkin and Lewis books, issues of morality and integrity are at stake and dealt with as important and significant concerns. Harry Potter seems very different. Harry also finds there is a "parallel world." It is, however, one of darkness and witchcraft that exists along side, and in the presence of, the everyday world. Here there is mixing of reality and fantasy that may well lead to the confusion of the real and the myth in the reader’s mind. For many young readers Harry’s world is "real." Even more crucial is the book’s authentication of witchcraft as providing viable answers to life’s problems. Bruno Bettelheim has said that, "Morality is not the issue in these tales, but rather assurance that one can succeed." Another reviewer has observed that, "the books have a serious tone of death, hate, lack of respect and sheer evil." According to the author’s own statement in an interview, this "darkness" will increase as the books progress. On another note one need not read far to discover that those who do not believe in witchcraft are characterized as dense and without imagination. Even the name given "unbelievers" is derogatory; they are "Muggles." Harry’s aunt, uncle and cousin are not only part of this group that "don’t like imagination," they are unhappy, unfair and unjust in their treatment of Harry. Harry’s "way out" is magic and witchcraft. Witches are "good." The rest of the world is made up of Muggles, and who wants to be a Muggle? I fear all this legitimizes witchcraft and may well lead to distain of those who offer any criticism of Harry Potter or his "world." The magic and sorcery of the Harry Potter series is not an appendage or alternative setting in the story. It is the story. In Lewis’ Narnia series, the White Witch is obviously evil. She is not, however, overcome by witchcraft learned and performed by the children, but by a greater power that comes through the Lion, Aslan. There is certainly a battle, but in Narnia there is never a doubt regarding the outcome. The Witch’s magic is not equal to the greater power that raised Aslan. In contrast, Harry Potter’s magic is presented as the good side of a dualistic force. The battle between good and evil is up for grabs. It is manipulation of this impersonal force that produces either good or evil. Finally, it is impossible to set aside the fact that in the Bible witchcraft is never viewed positively. Spells, sorcery, divination, witches and witchcraft: all these are seen as mere superstitions that do have a dark reality behind them. That reality is viewed as dangerous and not something to be treated lightly or played with. This in itself has to raise questions as to giving openhanded, uncritical acceptance to any book series that promotes sorcery. Where does this leave us? A great deal more could be said, but much about the Harry Potter series will require time and the perspective of distance to bring all the issues into focus. There are, however, enough questions and obvious concerns to bring the TBCS administration to take a guarded stance. To this end we have determined TBCS will not use these books in the classroom, nor will we treat them as "recommended reading." There is one caveat perhaps. Should parents choose to allow or encourage their children to read this series, we would recommend they carefully prepare themselves with an understanding of the issues involved and then read the books with their child. This could provide a positive learning experience and give the parent opportunity to not only clarify ideas and bring perspective to their reading, but to encourage the child’s ability to read critically.

Response:

Book of Revelations

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Question:

Why is it that the cult of the jew on the stick look forward to the end of the world as we know it? Many speak highly of the prophesy of their gods returning to the earth and destroying it and setting up a new world to rule over. Why would anyone wish to follow a god who wishes to destroy all life on the earth and re-create it? — In nomine Dei nostri Satanas Luciferi excelsi! Priestess Legion -The Emissary

Response:

Ask God Maria – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why is it that the cult of the jew on the stick look forward to the end of the world as we know it? Many speak highly of the prophesy of their gods returning to the earth and destroying it and setting up a new world to rule over. Why would anyone wish to follow a god who wishes to destroy all life on the earth and re-create it? — In nomine Dei nostri Satanas Luciferi excelsi! Priestess Legion -The Emissary

Response:

Tess Leg has said, Why would anyone wish to follow a god who wishes to destroy all life on

the earth and re-create it?<<< That is not what the book says. You inject innuendo and presumption in your misguided effort to persuade many to depart from a living faith and to wallow in your desperately pernicious way. Read the last line written for your father by our Father! It says, "The End" Not ours, or this world’s, but his! fervently! — "Destitute of the Fire of God, nothing else counts; possessing Fire, nothing else matters." Samuel Chadwick, 1932. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why is it that the cult of the jew on the stick look forward to the end of the world as we know it? Many speak highly of the prophesy of their gods returning to the earth and destroying it and setting up a new world to rule over. Why would anyone wish to follow a god who wishes to destroy all life on the earth and re-create it? — In nomine Dei nostri Satanas Luciferi excelsi! Priestess Legion -The Emissary

Response:

When the Holy City descends we will reign with Jesus on this earth for a thousand years. Once the enemy is cast into the lake of fire a new heaven and new earth will be created. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why is it that the cult of the jew on the stick look forward to the end of the world as we know it? Many speak highly of the prophesy of their gods returning to the earth and destroying it and setting up a new world to rule over. Why would anyone wish to follow a god who wishes to destroy all life on the earth and re-create it? — In nomine Dei nostri Satanas Luciferi excelsi! Priestess Legion -The Emissary

Response:

Too true! I have given my life to our God, So whatever, God has for me, in the future, is ok with me. All the various descriptions, of our future life, do not bother me. For I would rather go, to the place Jesus, is preparing for me. And as John reported, in Revelations, Come quickly, Jesus, as he was near death. With love, al – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ask God Maria Why is it that the cult of the jew on the stick look forward to the end of the world as we know it? Many speak highly of the prophesy of their gods returning to the earth and destroying it and setting up a new world to rule over. Why would anyone wish to follow a god who wishes to destroy all life on the earth and re-create it? — In nomine Dei nostri Satanas Luciferi excelsi! Priestess Legion -The Emissary

Response:

Great to see some JOY on this newsgroup. Thanks for sharing In Christ Maria

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Too true! I have given my life to our God, So whatever, God has for me, in the future, is ok with me. All the various descriptions, of our future life, do not bother me. For I would rather go, to the place Jesus, is preparing for me. And as John reported, in Revelations, Come quickly, Jesus, as he was near death. With love, al Ask God Maria Why is it that the cult of the jew on the stick look forward to the end of the world as we know it? Many speak highly of the prophesy of their gods returning to the earth and destroying it and setting up a new world to rule over. Why would anyone wish to follow a god who wishes to destroy all life on the earth and re-create it? — In nomine Dei nostri Satanas Luciferi excelsi! Priestess Legion -The Emissary

Response:

Great to see some JOY on this newsgroup. Thanks for sharing In Christ Maria

I know for that is one reason I am here…. — In nomine Dei nostri Satanas Luciferi excelsi! Priestess Legion -The Emissary

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Why is it that the cult known as the xtains wish for the return of the jew on the stick and for the destruction of the world as we know it? Are they nothing but war mongers? Satanists love LIFE…. We don’t want to see the destruction of anything. Rather we want EVERYONE to enjoy everything LIFE has to offer. — In nomine Dei nostri Satanas Luciferi excelsi! Priestess Legion -The Emissary

Response:

Life is in Jesus Christ who loves us all enough to stretch out his arms and die for us. Then on the third day arose again to defeat death, hell, and the grave. God loves you Jill and so do I. Di — ~~~Love unconditionally and freely~~~ Only then will your heart learn what love is~~~ http://sweetblood.org/ http://www.diabeticnet.com/home.htm Return Email Disabled : Why is it that the cult known as the xtains wish for the return of the jew : on the stick and for the destruction of the world as we know it? Are they : nothing but war mongers? : : Satanists love LIFE…. : : We don’t want to see the destruction of anything. Rather we want EVERYONE : to enjoy everything LIFE has to offer. : : : — : In nomine Dei nostri Satanas Luciferi excelsi! : : Priestess Legion : -The Emissary : : : : : : : : : : : :

Response:

"We do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day. For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory, while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal." 2Cor4:16-18) We look forward to "new" and "eternal" things; not destruction and old things. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why is it that the cult known as the xtains wish for the return of the jew on the stick and for the destruction of the world as we know it? Are they nothing but war mongers? Satanists love LIFE…. We don’t want to see the destruction of anything. Rather we want EVERYONE to enjoy everything LIFE has to offer. — In nomine Dei nostri Satanas Luciferi excelsi! Priestess Legion -The Emissary

Response:

Why is it that the cult known as the xtains wish for the return of the jew on the stick and for the destruction of the world as we know it? Are they nothing but war mongers?

They have been known to be. Satanists love LIFE….

They love death. We don’t want to see the destruction of anything. Rather we want EVERYONE to enjoy everything LIFE has to offer.

Satanists love temporal things. Things which don’t last. Things which die as they do.

Response:

I think it is a little narrow minded to extrapolate it like this. There are probably indeed christians that live because they want to die holy. But just as well, there are satanists who do nothing but paint their satanist tag on every square inch of wall they can find. Some love ‘their own’ life, even if it means that other lives don’t mean anything (I know, christians made that mistake too in the past). Anyway, I live my life here in deep relationship with God, following the scripture as far as I can grasp it. But I don’t look down onto people who don’t follow my faith, or who don’t even understand or respect it. I’m quite certain that Gods love is the guide in my life. But even if this would all be wrong, even then I would not be sorry of the way I live my life. Living according to Gods plan (and God speaks to us in the core of our own conscience, taken that we develop our conscience), is the only way this world will benefit in the long run. And if judgement day ever comes (there’s no hurry for that)… well, I guess each one of us will have to make account to his own master. And I must say, I’d rather give account to Christ, who tells me that He’s forgiving and mild for those who search honestly… than to have to give account to Satan (or whatever you call ‘m). — In nomine Dei nostri Satanas Luciferi excelsi!

LOL. Funny how you inherit stuff from ancient catholic rites and try to mystify your own cults. Priestess Legion -The Emissary

Afraid to use your real name? Shamed for who you are? I’m Jurgen. God bless you.

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Priestess Legion -The Emissary Afraid to use your real name? Shamed for who you are?

Her name is JILL SNIPER, from northeast OHIO.

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Priestess Legion -The Emissary Afraid to use your real name? Shamed for who you are? Her name is JILL SNIPER,

Hmmm…Sniper…it fits. from northeast OHIO.

Hmmm…northeastern Ohio, eh? I’ll bet she has thirteen toes and a hunchback. Alan

Response:

We do no long for the destruction, we long to go home. We also desired that all people get to make the same trip. we realize that this will not be so, but would want as many as possible to go to heaven. We even want to see you make the trip. For God so loved the world that he gave His only Son that P)riestess Legion might have ever lasting life. All you have to do is accept this free gift. Senior Consultant RR # 14 Box 1400 Stevens Services Bedford, IN 47421 Specializing in network and reliability consulting

Response:

We do no long for the destruction, we long to go home.

Here is a solution to your problem. You wish to go home but you don’t want to die, is that your problem? One way is to stop eating and drinking. You then are still living but on your way out as the days go by. To hang yourself by the feet could be painfull. On the other hand life is worth living. Instead of wishing for events that would be to you an indication that the end of this world is near, live your life. Your end is sure to come. All those who speculate on End-times prophecies are charlatans. Write a book on the subject, it sells like pancakes.Write a serious Christian book and it will remain on the store shelves.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Priestess Legion -The Emissary Afraid to use your real name? Shamed for who you are? Her name is JILL SNIPER, Hmmm…Sniper…it fits. from northeast OHIO. Hmmm…northeastern Ohio, eh? I’ll bet she has thirteen toes and a hunchback. Alan

Oh well… I guess it’s these kind of comments that proove that sometimes, we too live on hatred. Greetz. Jurgen.

Response:

We do no long for the destruction, we long to go home. Here is a solution to your problem. You wish to go home but you don’t want to die, is that your problem?

I want to do the will of the Lord. It is presently his will that I remain here. One way is to stop eating and drinking. You then are still living but on your way out as the days go by. To hang yourself by the feet could be painfull.

This doesn’t sound very practical, or very much like following the Lord. On the other hand life is worth living. Instead of wishing for events that would be to you an indication that the end of this world is near, live your life. Your end is sure to come.

The Bible even says this in a number of places. All those who speculate on End-times prophecies are charlatans. Write a book on the subject, it sells like pancakes.Write a serious Christian book and it will remain on the store shelves.

I certainly will not argue about this one as I generally agree. As Christians we are way to worried about the end times. One of the most important scriptures on the end times in my opinion is the one that says "occupy until I come". However, the question was asked, and so I answered it. Senior Consultant RR # 14 Box 1400 Stevens Services Bedford, IN 47421 Specializing in network and reliability consulting

Response:

Ray, I love to tease rapturists, triblers and prophets of doom. Have you been to a doctor or dentist lately? You wait, wait, wait. I hate waiting. Christians are lucky, they don’t have to wait for a messiah, others did the waiting for them. Look at the Jews, near 2400 years of waiting in the worst of conditions and they are still waiting, hoping, for a Jewish messiah king to come, for a Jewish kingdom on earth. Why? Because it is natural for human beings to wait. We wait for the sun to show up, for rain to come, for money, for summer, for a visitor, what not, and why not for God to come? Our problem is with Scripture.We cannot make the difference between what is historical in Scripture and what is theological in Scripture. For instance Pilate and the crucifixtion are historical. Was the transfiguration historical? Don’t think so. If it was not historical, it must be theological. Many believe it was historical. Because we don’t know what should be interpreted as historical and what should be interpreted as theological in Scripture, we speculate and invent such things as rapture, pre-trib, after-trib, the return of Jesus and the establishment of his earthly kingdom where the lamb and the wolf would make love to each other. As if all this was possible. I sometime think and say to myself, are we going nuts with all this? On the other hand, what would man be without hope. What appears ridiculous to me may sound as a reality to others. I just don’t believe in end-times theories but I well know many do. Nothing wrong in being a troll if the troll can make people think. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We do no long for the destruction, we long to go home. Here is a solution to your problem. You wish to go home but you don’t want to die, is that your problem? I want to do the will of the Lord. It is presently his will that I remain here. One way is to stop eating and drinking. You then are still living but on your way out as the days go by. To hang yourself by the feet could be painfull. This doesn’t sound very practical, or very much like following the Lord. On the other hand life is worth living. Instead of wishing for events that would be to you an indication that the end of this world is near, live your life. Your end is sure to come. The Bible even says this in a number of places. All those who speculate on End-times prophecies are charlatans. Write a book on the subject, it sells like pancakes.Write a serious Christian book and it will remain on the store shelves. I certainly will not argue about this one as I generally agree. As Christians we are way to worried about the end times. One of the most important scriptures on the end times in my opinion is the one that says "occupy until I come". However, the question was asked, and so I answered it. Senior Consultant RR # 14 Box 1400 Stevens Services Bedford, IN 47421 Specializing in network and reliability consulting

Response:

Go troll. What’s your view of it all then?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Christians are lucky, they don’t have to wait for a messiah, others did the Because we don’t know what should be interpreted as historical and what should be interpreted as theological in Scripture, we speculate and invent such things as rapture, pre-trib, after-trib, the return of Jesus and the establishment of his earthly kingdom where the lamb and the wolf would make love to each other. As if all this was possible. I sometime think and say to myself, are we going nuts with all this? On the other hand, what would man be without hope. What appears ridiculous to me may sound as a reality to others. I just don’t believe in end-times theories but I well know many do. Nothing wrong in being a troll if the troll can make people think.

Response:

Go troll. What’s your view of it all then?

I had written: "Nothing wrong in being a troll if the troll can make people think." Do I have to do the thinking for you? Like I said some take their dreams for realities, others don’t. Proverbs 18:2 "A fool has no delight in understanding, but only in broadcasting his own opinion." What is yours? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Christians are lucky, they don’t have to wait for a messiah, others did the Because we don’t know what should be interpreted as historical and what should be interpreted as theological in Scripture, we speculate and invent such things as rapture, pre-trib, after-trib, the return of Jesus and the establishment of his earthly kingdom where the lamb and the wolf would make love to each other. As if all this was possible. I sometime think and say to myself, are we going nuts with all this? On the other hand, what would man be without hope. What appears ridiculous to me may sound as a reality to others. I just don’t believe in end-times theories but I well know many do. Nothing wrong in being a troll if the troll can make people think.

Response:

You answer that since your cult starts them.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why is it that the cult known as the xtains wish for the return of the jew on the stick and for the destruction of the world as we know it? Are they nothing but war mongers? Satanists love LIFE…. We don’t want to see the destruction of anything. Rather we want EVERYONE to enjoy everything LIFE has to offer. — In nomine Dei nostri Satanas Luciferi excelsi! Priestess Legion -The Emissary

Response:

Pray for the world

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Question:

Religious Liberty Prayer List – No. 152 – Thu 24 Jan 2002 SUDAN AND TURKMENISTAN: GIVE THANKS AND PRAY PERSISTENTLY SUDAN A six-month, renewable ceasefire agreement for the Nuba Mountains between the Government of Sudan (GoS) and the SPLM (the political wing of the main rebel group fighting in the south) was signed on 19 January 2002 in Burgenstock, Switzerland. This followed six days of closed-door negotiations between the two parties, with the joint mediation of the Swiss and US governments. This is the first time that the US has been involved in peace negotiations in Sudan since the Sudanese constitution was amended to adopt Sharia Law in 1983. US mediator was John Danforth, a former senator and an ordained minister, who was named as special envoy for peace in Sudan by President Bush last September. Danforth pushed for a halt to the bombing of civilian targets (such as hospitals, schools and aid delivery sites); for humanitarian aid access to the Nuba Mountains; for zones and times of tranquillity in which that aid can be offered; and an end to the taking of slaves. Three of these four points were accepted, but the GoS has balked at the idea of ceasing its bombing of civilian targets and the international monitoring that would entail. A political settlement of the conflict has not been reached, without which the SPLA historically has refused to accept ceasefires. A trial period has however been agreed, with an SPLA ceasefire required for the GoS to stop its bombing. To Joseph Bucher, the head of the Swiss delegation, the accord was a first step, the next being its effective implementation. John Danforth is concerned that there still is not a real will for peace. A Kenyan working with Doctors Without Borders said, "We’ll have to wait and see. Maybe what is spoken and what happens in practice are two different things." A UN worker was sceptical: "We load the food, while they load the bombs." It might seem hopeless, but this is the very reason why we pray. "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." Matt 19:26 TURKMENISTAN Baptist lay preacher, Shageldy Atakov was released from prison on 8 January 2002 and reunited with his wife Artygul and their five children. However, the church and others remain concerned because Shageldy was not given a release certificate and his identity papers were not returned. Shageldy was arrested on 18 December 1998 on ’swindling’ charges after he refused to yield to KNB (formerly KGB) threats and stop preaching. His treatment in prison was severe and came close to taking his life and the family has suffered immensely. The Atakovs need our continuing prayer. Sadly, our knowledge of similar situations is that men like Shageldy may be in danger when released. Also, on 22 December 2001, Mikhail Kozlov, a leading figure in Ashgabad Baptist Church was found dead in mysterious circumstances. Pray for God to intervene in Turkmenistan. GIVE PRAISE AND THANKS TO GOD FOR * the steps being made towards peace in the Nuba Mountains of Sudan: slavery may now be challenged, and after a ten year blockade humanitarian aid groups may now have access to the region in ‘zones of tranquillity’. * his mercy in Shageldy Atakov’s release from prison and reunion with his family; that God sustained them physically and spiritually through a terrible ordeal. PLEASE PRAY SPECIFICALLY FOR * GoS and SPLM parties to have a real will for peace, a determination to follow political process rather than bloodshed, and strong leadership to implement it. * wisdom, patience, hope and strength for John Danforth and all those involved in the peace negotiations. * the Church in Sudan to grow in strength and witness. * safety daily for Shageldy Atakov and his family, and for God to intervene in Turkmenistan. "Summon your power, O God; show us your strength, O God, as you have done before." Psalm 68:28 To view past RLPs on Sudan and Turkmenistan, go to http://www.evangelicalalliance.org.au/missions/rlc/postings.htm SUMMARY TO USE IN BULLETINS UNABLE TO RUN THE WHOLE ARTICLE: SUDAN AND TURKMENISTAN: GIVE THANKS AND PRAY PERSISTENTLY Thank God for his mercies in good news from both Sudan and Turkmenistan. A ceasefire agreement has been brokered for the Nuba Mountains of Sudan, and Shageldy Atakov has been released from prison in Turkmenistan. These issues have long been on prayer lists worldwide. However, in both cases, fully implementing the promise is, in a worldly sense, beyond the capabilities of those involved. Only God can bring peace to Sudan and only God can protect Shageldy Atakov from subsequent attack or execution. Thank God for his mercies and pray persistently for God’s continued intervention in Sudan and Turkmenistan, because without it, the joy could be short- lived. "Summon your power, O God; show us your strength, O God, as you have done before." Psalm 68:28 Please pass this along to others with attribution to World Evangelical Alliance (WEA) Religious Liberty The WEA Religious Liberty Commission sponsors this RL Prayer List to help individuals and groups pray specifically and regularly for religious liberty issues, and in particular to uphold the Church where it is suffering persecution. — Shalom! Rowland Croucher http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm

Response:

Religious Liberty Prayer List – No. 150 – Wed 09 Jan 2002 CHINA: DEATH SENTENCE FOR ‘EVIL CULT’ MEMBERS The 11 September 2001 terrorist attack on USA renewed China’s determination to crack down on dissent and religious zeal. A high- level working conference on religious affairs met in Beijing from 10-13 December 2001, when new rules were drafted to make it easier for churches to gain registration. However, those refusing to register will face harsher penalties. The aim is to bring more churches under the control of the atheistic Communist government. Conference speeches by President Jiang Zemin and Prime Minister Zhu Rongji called for strengthening the party’s grip on religious work and tighter management of religious affairs in rural areas. So China’s religious repression continues despite being awarded the 2008 Games by the International Olympic Committee (IOC), granting of Most Favoured Nation trading status by the US and admission to the World Trade Organisation (WTO). In fact China has officially viewed such recognition of its ’social stability’ as justifying its continuing crackdown on religious minorities and political dissent. In 1999 the Standing Committee of the National People’s Congress adopted anti-cult legislation. In late 2000 the China Anti-Cult Association was established to combat cults, which were defined as anything that poses a perceived threat to stability and is therefore deemed ‘harmful to society’. China as an atheistic Communist republic teaches atheism in its schools. Because it is illegal to teach any other religion to minors (under 18 years), some 16 evangelistic, evangelical unregistered house churches are now classified as ‘evil cults’. The section of China’s criminal law entitled ‘Crimes of Disrupting Public Order’ includes offences relating to membership in unapproved religious groups. It states also that anyone using ’superstitious sects, secret societies, and evil religious organisations’ to undermine the law shall be charged with a criminal offence and sentenced to 3 to 7 years’ fixed imprisonment. If ’superstition’ is used to gain ‘illicit sexual relations with women’, then according to this law: ‘Whoever rapes a woman or has sexual relations with a girl’ (in various listed ‘odious’ circumstances) ‘is to be sentenced to not less than 10 years of fixed-term imprisonment, life imprisonment, or death.’ On 18 December 2001, the founder of the South China Church, 46-year- old Gong Shengliang, was sentenced to death after a secret trial. He was charged with ‘complicity in rape’ and ‘using a cult to undermine the enforcement of the law’. He was to be executed on 5 January but an appeal for a stay of execution has been granted, in answer to prayer. Members who ‘confessed’ to being raped have withdrawn what they now report was forced testimony made under torture, saying that they were stripped and beaten by local Hubei police in what appears to be a ‘frame-up’. Four others convicted along with Pastor Gong have had their death sentences suspended for two years. Another 15 members were given prison sentences. The South China Church is reportedly an ‘evangelical, fundamentalist Christian church’ with around 50,000 members across ten provinces. Banned as an evil cult in April last year, it has 63 members currently in prison. Although Bibles are now printed legally inside China, production is capped at 2.3 million, which can in no way meet the demand, especially in rural areas where Bible shortage is a constant problem. (The Chinese Church grows at a rate of around 3-5 million new believers per year – 80% live in rural areas and are very poor). On 5 January 2002 a Hong Kong citizen and trader, Li Guangquiang, was accused of ‘using an evil cult to damage a law- based society’, because he brought 33,000 Bibles in April and May 2000 to a house church movement prominent in some rural parts of China. It is possible that he too may face the death penalty. PLEASE PRAY SPECIFICALLY FOR * God’s Spirit to touch the world’s conscience and for parties such as the IOC, USA and WTO to protest such abuse of law and of the basic human right to freedom of religion. * faith, courage, practical support, good health and protection for Pastor Gong Shengliang and the other believers in prison (some under sentence of death), and for their families. * the Church in China not to be overcome by fear as repression appears to be escalating, but for a strong faith, courage and continued witness. "Be strong and take heart, all you who hope in the Lord." Psalm 31:24 * the Spirit to move amongst China’s elite and educated; for the collapse of communism in Asia, and the rise of godly leadership. (1 Tim 2:1-4) SUMMARY TO USE IN BULLETINS UNABLE TO RUN THE WHOLE ARTICLE: DEATH SENTENCES FOR MEMBERS OF ‘EVIL CULT’ IN CHINA Motivated by the events of 11 Sep 2001, and encouraged by international acceptance, China appears to be escalating its crackdown on dissent and religious zeal. The government is aiming to bring more churches under state control and is using the anti- cult laws to persecute evangelical Christians, whom they regard as a threat to social stability. The South China Church, with 50,000 house church members in 10 provinces, is currently being severely persecuted: 63 members are in prison, with the founder, Gong Shengliang, and four others carrying the burden of death sentences. Also, Li Guangquiang of Hong Kong has been charged with ‘using an evil cult to damage a law-based society’, for having brought 33,000 Bibles into China at the request of a rural house church group. Please pass this along to others with attribution to World Evangelical Alliance (WEA) Religious Liberty The WEA Religious Liberty Commission sponsors this RL Prayer List to help individuals and groups pray specifically and regularly for religious liberty issues, and in particular to uphold the Church where it is suffering persecution. — Shalom! Rowland Croucher http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm

Response:

Dear Friends Our team in the Philippines last week met with and gathered documentation from members of a Canadian Christian team working in Indonesia. The team was about to go back into Indonesia, to help Christians who are suffering assaults by Jihad forces. Carl Cady, whose ministry is being a mouthpiece for these people, has sent us the email below, and requested URGENT PRAYER. — The Liberty office ~~~~~~~ Dear Friends I am in Indonesia and have received first hand information from Central Sulawesi (Poso and Tentena). There are 63,000 Christians who are in grave danger. I am appealing to the Church worldwide to begin to pray for a miracle of protection for these our brothers and sisters in Christ. These Christians have only 35 police to protect them from daily attacks against their region. There is a force of about 15,000 well armed Jihad terrorists who have surrounded the Christian villages. Entire villages have been burned and people are being shot everyday. They are fleeing to other villages in hopes of safety. The Indonesian military have pulled out. The Police have only a few weapons. The roads have been blocked by the Jihad terrorists. The supply of food is dangerously low. These brave Christians have been the target of the anger of the Jihad terrorist. The terrorists have publically announced that they will make December a "month of blood" and by Christmas they will have eliminated the "cross bearers" from this region. The attention of the world has been on Afganistan. This crisis in Indonesia may be the most serious threat to innocent people on earth at this time. The terrorists have proclaimed they are followers of Osama Bin Laden. This is an urgent prayer request. Please send this to every praying believer you know. The threat is real. These people have no voice of their own. Please pray for our loving Father in Heaven to show His mighty hand to protect. — Carl Cady — Shalom! Rowland Croucher http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm

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Sunday, December 30, 2001 Job 36:15 – But those who suffer he delivers in their suffering; he speaks to them in their affliction. Situation: Four church planters were recently arrested for their work in China. Many others have suffered harassment from authorities. Prayer Point: Pray for the safety of the workers. Pray for God’s provision as they sacrificially continue their work. This month’s prayer points provided courtesy of Bible League. — Shalom! Rowland Croucher http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm

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Tuesday, January 1, 2002 1 Peter 2:21 – To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. Situation: Vietnam church planter classes were interrupted recently by police. The police intimidated and interrogated participants. Prayer Point: Praise God that in spite of the opposition, pastors report significant increases in new conversions to Christ and record attendance at small group Bible studies. This month’s prayer points provided courtesy of Bible League. — Shalom! Rowland Croucher http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm

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Religious Liberty Prayer List – No. 149 – Wed 02 Jan 2002 SAUDI ARABIA: NEW YEAR – SAME CHALLENGE; plus urgent prayer updates Saudi Arabia is perpetually rated the most severe persecutor of Christians on earth. Religious liberty does not exist in principle or in practice. This not only leads to extreme persecution and suffering for believers, but also results in Saudi Arabia being one of the world’s least evangelised nations, with over 21 million people and a growth rate 2.5 times the world average. Human rights and religious liberty groups regularly call for international pressure on Saudi Arabia to improve its appalling human rights. However, political and economic factors always seem to intrude because it is a strategic Western ally and the world’s leading oil exporter. As we start a new year we remember that God is not swayed by political or economic considerations, but only by his righteousness and love. ‘Many seek an audience with a ruler, but it is from the Lord that man gets justice.’ Proverbs 29:26 By law, a Saudi citizen must be a Muslim, and leaving Islam is apostasy, a capital offence. Sharia Law applies also to expatriate workers, whose religious expression is severely restricted. ‘Proselytism’ (witnessing) and public worship by non-Muslims is banned, although the Saudi Government does recognise their right to worship privately. However, the distinction between public and private worship is not clear, so that small gatherings of believers for worship and fellowship in private homes are often raided by the Mutawwa (religious police), their materials confiscated and leaders detained. On 18 July 2001, Saudi authorities arrested house church leader Prahbu Isaac, an Indian national who had worked in a Jeddah hospital for 17 years (see RLP 129). They then cracked down on other house church leaders whose names they extracted from Prahbu’s confiscated computer. By the end of August, 15 believers had been imprisoned. A British expatriate worker had to return to Britain with his employment contract terminated on 1 August, after Saudi authorities viewed a confiscated video of him preaching to a home fellowship. There have been several other reports of expatriate believers losing their jobs and being deported. As things are today, 13 Christians – Ethiopian, Eritrean, Indian, Nigerian and Filipino – are imprisoned on charges of propagating Christianity. While four remain in the Sharafia detention facility in Jeddah, nine were transferred to Trahyl deportation prison on 24 December. The prison conditions are absolutely deplorable, unhygienic and unsafe, and it is feared that the believers’ stay there could be lengthy. The men are discouraged and extremely anxious for their families, who are without income. Five of the men are reportedly unwell and without medical assistance. PLEASE PRAY SPECIFICALLY FOR: * the imprisoned believers and their families, that they will not be discouraged, but will be reminded by the Spirit that ‘the eternal God is (their) refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms.’ (Deuteronomy 33:27) * that their fear and anxiety will be tempered by faith and trust in an all-seeing, all-knowing, good, loving and in-control God. * medical assistance for the prisoners who need it and that they will all be able to have family visits, access to consular officials and a speedy resolution of their situation. * courage for all our brothers and sisters in Saudi Arabia, so that their light will continue to shine in that needy land. * God’s Spirit to move in Saudi Arabia – may religious freedom become a reality and may Jesus be known, even to Saudi royals, Mutawwa and Islamic scholars. ‘God’s voice thunders in marvellous ways; he does great things beyond our understanding.’ Job 37:5 SUMMARY TO USE IN BULLETINS UNABLE TO RUN THE WHOLE ARTICLE: SAUDI ARABIA: NEW YEAR – SAME CHALLENGE Saudi Arabia is the worst persecutor of Christians and most severe abuser of religious liberty in the world. As a strategic ally and the world’s largest oil exporter, its appalling human rights record is rarely challenged by Western governments. At this time, 13 believers are in prison for their faith as the Saudi Government cracks down on the house church movement. Nine of those prisoners are in the Trahyl deportation prison, in appalling, unhygienic and unsafe conditions, without visitors, consular access or medical assistance. The prisoners, their families and the private house churches they represent need our prayers. Religious freedom is non- existent for the 21 million people in Saudi Arabia, making it one of the least evangelised nations on earth. A Saudi citizen must by law be a Muslim – apostasy is death. The New Year has been marred with violence targeted against Christians in Sulawesi, Indonesia and Jos, Nigeria. * Only days after peace talks, bombs went off simultaneously at midnight in three churches in the Central Sulawesi capital of Palu as the New Year rolled in. Another church bomb exploded later at 9:30am, injuring two police officers. * More than 20 people were killed in Jos, Nigeria when armed Muslim Hausa and Fulani tribesmen attacked the Christian village of Dagwom Turu. They were repelled by villagers and local security. Muslim violence against Christians which erupted in Jos in early September 2001 was temporarily contained, only to be reignited and fuelled by the 11 September terrorist attack. *** Pray for peace and for wise, strong, courageous Christian leadership, example and witness.*** Please pass this along to others with attribution to World Evangelical Alliance (WEA) Religious Liberty The WEF Religious Liberty Commission sponsors this RL Prayer List to help individuals and groups pray specifically and regularly for religious liberty issues, and in particular to uphold the Church where it is suffering persecution. — Shalom! Rowland Croucher http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm

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Thursday, December 27, 2001 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake – Philippians 1:29 Situation: Asif, a Christian brother in Pakistan, converted from the Muslim religion to Christianity after he was poisoned by a Muslim cleric. Asif said Jesus appeared to him after he was left to die in a pool of his blood and vomit. He pledged to serve God for the rest of his life because of the visitation experience. Asif has led more than 3,000 Muslims and Hindus to Christ over the last three years. His salvation did not come without a price. Asif has been beaten, jailed and his leg broken for spreading the gospel in the Muslim-dominated nation. He still continues to be a bold witness for Christ. Prayer Point: Pray for strength and courage for Asif as he continues to press on and spread the gospel in a Muslim dominated country. This month’s prayer points provided courtesy of The Voice of the Martyrs. — Shalom! Rowland Croucher http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm X-No-Archive: yes Newsgroups: microsoft.test,comp.lang.c,alt.religion.christian.episcopal NNTP-Posting-Host: wonenara.ozemail.com.au 203.108.164.177 Lines: 1 Path: news.sol.net!spool1-nwblwi.newsops.execpc.com!newsfeeds.sol.net!newspump.so l.net!dfw-peer.news.verio.net!sea-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!msrnew sc1!cppssbbsa01.microsoft.com!tkmsftngp01!tkmsftngp05!u.n.a.c.a.n.c.e.l.l.e .r This message was cancelled from within Mozilla.

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Tuesday, December 25, 2001 Always in every prayer of mine making request for you all with joy, for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ – Philippians 1:4-6 Situation: In China, Christian house church leader Pastor Li Dexian, was arrested on July 26, 2001, immediately after the International Olympic Committee awarded China the 2008 Olympics. Pastor Li’s arrest came as he opened a house church meeting in Hua Du, not far from Guongzhou. Public Security Bureau officers then closed the church meeting and dispersed attendees to their homes. Arrested with Pastor Li was his co-worker, Ah Kong. Pastor Li has been arrested 18 times in the last 18 months for his commitment to evangelize the lost in China. Prayer Point: Pray for Pastor Li as he continues to evangelize in China. This month’s prayer points provided courtesy of The Voice of the Martyrs . — Shalom! Rowland Croucher http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm X-No-Archive: yes Newsgroups: microsoft.test,comp.lang.c,alt.religion.christian.episcopal NNTP-Posting-Host: wonenara.ozemail.com.au 203.108.164.177 Lines: 1 Path: news.sol.net!spool1-nwblwi.newsops.execpc.com!newsfeeds.sol.net!newspump.so l.net!dfw-peer.news.verio.net!sea-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!msrnew sc1!cppssbbsa01.microsoft.com!tkmsftngp01!tkmsftngp05!u.n.a.c.a.n.c.e.l.l.e .r This message was cancelled from within Mozilla.

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Sunday, December 23, 2001 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant your servants that with all boldness they may speak your words – Acts 4:29 Situation: In Vietnam, Brother Da, a Hmong believer, recently served time in a brick-making labor camp for his faith. Like the Early Church, police soon heard of Brother Da and the many in his Hmong village who turned to Christ and took each of them to a nearby stream where they were tortured and ordered to return to idol worship. Brother Da refused to deny Christ, and for this he was sent to the labor camp. After his release, he had to go into hiding, because he refused to hang a piece of red cloth outside his home as a symbol of communism. He remains underground working for the Lord. Prayer Point: Pray for Brother Da as he continues his ministry. This month’s prayer points provided courtesy of The Voice of the Martyrs . — Shalom! Rowland Croucher http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm

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Sunday, December 16, 2001 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were saved – Acts 2:46-47 Situation: Emre lives near Istanbul, Turkey where he set up a Christian book table with another believer along a walkway leading to a popular beach. As people came by, Emre and his friend would offer them Christian books and look for opportunities to witness about Christ. There were other tables set up as well. Police did not bother Emre until he sold a Christian book to the son of a radical Muslim woman. Finding the book, the woman told the police who soon arrested Emre and his friend. At the police station, Emre was roughed up by police. After his release, he received threatening phone calls. His house church was soon raided, and all were arrested, but later released. Emre has no regrets. Emre stated, "The message is so important we have to get it out, even if there are risks to doing that." Prayer Point: Pray Emre and the fellowship there will continue to win souls for the kingdom. This month’s prayer points provided courtesy of The Voice of the Martyrs. — Shalom! Rowland Croucher http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm

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Friday, December 21, 2001 Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also – John 15:20 Situation: While meeting with Hmong Christians near Hanoi, Vietnam, VOM received several pages of arrest documents. Believers also showed VOM a map of where this prison is located. Hmong pastors who are arrested for sharing their faith are placed in these labor camps and are severely beaten. Prayer Point: Pray that these pastors will remain bold and be able to lead those that persecute them into a relationship with the Lord. This month’s prayer points provided courtesy of The Voice of the Martyrs . — Shalom! Rowland Croucher http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm

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Wednesday, December 12, 2001 Psalm 140:1-2 "Rescue me, O LORD, from evil men; protect me from men of violence, who devise evil plans in their hearts and stir up war every day." Situation: Please pray for Christians under attack from Jihad warriors in Indonesia. Many Christians in the district of Poso are concerned about rumors that Laskar Jihad is planning a major offensive against them in December, for a ‘Bloody Christmas.’ According to Christian observers, there are now more than 60,000 Christians in the Poso district of Central Sulawesi, many of whom are refugees from Jihad militia attacks on their villages in outlying areas. Some western observers report that while Indonesian military presence in the District of Poso has been greatly reduced over the past two months, the Laskar Jihad Islamic militia continues to bring in hundreds of soldiers from other parts of Indonesia. Prayer Point: Pray urgently for the protection of the more than 60,000 Christians now in the District of Poso. Pray especially for those in Tentena. Specific information is difficult to get and hard to verify, but it is clear that the Christians in this area are facing great danger. Pray for the Christians in Poso who have been generously hosting refugees from throughout the region. Pray that God would give them grace and would multiply the provision for the newcomers and residents of Poso. Pray for the relationship between the Christian community and the Muslim residents of Poso. Pray that the Christians would be tremendous witnesses of Christ’s love and power. Pray that the government of Indonesia would commit itself wholeheartedly to the defense of the Christian community in Central Sulawesi. This month’s prayer points provided courtesy of Christians in Crisis with Pastor Wally. — Shalom! Rowland Croucher http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm

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Religious Liberty Prayer List – No. 146 – Wed 05 Dec 2001 INDONESIA: LASKAR JIHAD RAVAGE SULAWESI At least 1,000 people have been killed in sectarian strife in Central Sulawesi, Indonesia, since religious violence erupted in 1998. The deployment of security forces led to the situation being relatively calm for most of this year. However, after their numbers were reduced, there were several minor skirmishes between Christians and Muslims in Poso in early November. These were followed by the bombing of the largest Christian church in the area and a massive influx of 7,000 Laskar Jihad forces committed to holy war and threatening a massacre of chilling proportions. In the past few days, thousands of homes, schools and churches in Sulawesi have been destroyed as jihad militia equipped with machine guns, rocket launchers and bulldozers have razed and burned Christian villages, sending families fleeing for their lives. An estimated 50,000 refugees from these Sulawesi villages are now in the village of Tentena, surrounded by Laskar Jihad forces preparing to slaughter them in the cause of jihad. The situation in Indonesia is complex as not all those described as Christians are believers. Whilst the invading Laskar Jihad force has mainly instigated the present crisis, there are also ‘Christian’ militias who readily perpetuate the violence. The Laskar Jihad’s website is advancing local rumours of Muslims being forcibly converted, raped, sadistically tortured, kidnapped for use as sex-slaves, etc., by ‘Christians’ and that attacks on Muslims in Poso ‘are being organised by Christian priests’. These rumours not only grossly slander the true Christian community but are also highly inflammatory and dangerous as they whip up extreme levels of hatred and hostility, ensuring that revenge attacks and reprisals will be directed against Christian villages, churches, priests and leaders. So far, a paltry 500 soldiers have been deployed to the region to try and establish order, although the government is considering sending in a further 2,600 troops and declaring a state of emergency. The government’s National Human Rights Commission spokesman, Asmara Nababan, described the situation as ‘critical’ and said he could not understand why the ‘police and the military seemed unable to stop the conflict’. Many believe that military and others loyal to the Suharto regime have vested political interests in fuelling the conflict to destabilise the nation. Ja’far Umar Thalib, head of the Laskar Jihad, has publicly boasted of his relationship with the Indonesian military, even claiming in April 2000 to having a hotline to Admiral Widodo. President Megawati Sukarnoputri has been reluctant to rein in Islamic militants because she owes her political survival to Muslim parties who have backed and now control her. PLEASE PRAY SPECIFICALLY FOR: * significant international pressure on the Indonesian government, forcing it to take decisive action to disarm and remove the invading Laskar Jihad and arrest all local provocateurs and instigators of violence. * police and security personnel to be non-partisan, intent only on what they are supposed to be doing: establishing law and order. * all those trapped in Tentena and other Christian villages, facing impending slaughter at the hands of the Laskar Jihad; may they be protected and rescued through God’s intervention. ‘From the Lord comes deliverance.’ Psalm 3:8 * Christian believers targeted due to false rumours or simply because of their faith, that peace will override fear in their hearts, that God will protect and deliver them and that their witness will not be in vain. * all Christian leaders in Central Sulawesi (and throughout Indonesia) to have strength, courage, wisdom and grace on a supernatural scale at this time when spiritual and strategic leadership of the people is crucial. SUMMARY TO USE IN BULLETINS UNABLE TO RUN THE WHOLE ARTICLE: LASKAR JIHAD RAVAGE SULAWESI, INDONESIA The situation on Sulawesi island is ‘critical’, according to the Indonesian Government’s National Human Rights Commission spokesman, Asmara Nababan. The paltry police and security force present can in no way quell the violence or control the 7,000-strong invading Laskar Jihad. The village of Tentena is flooded from surrounding Christian villages with fleeing refugees who are now encircled by militants intent on massacring them in the cause of jihad. The conflict is fuelled by rumours and the violent militias of both sides. The Indonesian government has failed to rein in the swelling numbers of Islamic militants because Megawati Sukarnoputri owes her political survival to the Muslim parties who have backed and now control her. The military and other Suharto loyalists also have political interests in provoking conflict rather than containing it. Please pray for the Christian believers amidst this strife. Please pass this along to others with attribution to World Evangelical Fellowship (WEF) Religious Liberty The WEF Religious Liberty Commission sponsors this RL Prayer List to help individuals and groups pray specifically and regularly for religious liberty issues, and in particular to uphold the Church where it is suffering persecution. — Shalom! Rowland Croucher http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm

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Very true. Needed much But Don’t you know that they are all nice people and we are supposed to have an open mind to other religions. After all they pray to the same God we do.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tuesday, December 4, 2001 Psalm 72:10-11 "The kings of Tarshish and of distant shores will bring tribute to him; the kings of Sheba and Seba will present him gifts. All kings will bow down to him and all nations will serve him." Situation: Saudi Arabia continues to reject western criticism that its’ educational system is a breeding ground for religious extremism. Many of the most radical fringe of the Islamic faith are reported to be coming out of Saudi Arabian schools and universities. It was reported that eleven (11) of the hijackers involved in the September 11 attack on the World Trade Center were from Saudi Arabia. The Saudi’s consider themselves to be the guardian of the holy sites of Islam and because of their closed country, their nation is a pure Islamic nation. Prayer Point: Pray that God will open the doors for the Gospel to be preached in Saudi Arabia. Pray that the leaders of their government will come to know Christ as Savior. Pray for Christians in the country that their home churches and their Christian witness would be protected. Pray that members of the Royal Family would come to know Christ. This month’s prayer points provided courtesy of Christians in Crisis with Pastor Wally. — Shalom! Rowland Croucher http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm

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Tuesday, December 4, 2001 Psalm 72:10-11 "The kings of Tarshish and of distant shores will bring tribute to him; the kings of Sheba and Seba will present him gifts. All kings will bow down to him and all nations will serve him." Situation: Saudi Arabia continues to reject western criticism that its’ educational system is a breeding ground for religious extremism. Many of the most radical fringe of the Islamic faith are reported to be coming out of Saudi Arabian schools and universities. It was reported that eleven (11) of the hijackers involved in the September 11 attack on the World Trade Center were from Saudi Arabia. The Saudi’s consider themselves to be the guardian of the holy sites of Islam and because of their closed country, their nation is a pure Islamic nation. Prayer Point: Pray that God will open the doors for the Gospel to be preached in Saudi Arabia. Pray that the leaders of their government will come to know Christ as Savior. Pray for Christians in the country that their home churches and their Christian witness would be protected. Pray that members of the Royal Family would come to know Christ. This month’s prayer points provided courtesy of Christians in Crisis with Pastor Wally. — Shalom! Rowland Croucher http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm

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Tuesday, November 20, 2001 Psalm 121: 7-8 " The Lord will keep you from all harm – he will watch over your life; the Lord will watch over your coming and going both now and forever more." Situation: On May 31, 2001, Laos police arrested seven church leaders and one church member. The central government of Laos has sent secret orders to local authorities to close down the churches in the whole country starting in the countryside. Three of the detained Christian leaders are now too weak to walk as their health suffered badly in the poor prison conditions. Jubilee Campaign had learned that 5 of these 8 Christians were released. On Monday, November 6, 2001, an unidentified men shot Thongla, a 42-year old pastor from a church in Xaiyabury Province in Laos and his 14-year old son, while they were harvesting in the rice field. Pastor Thongla died on the spot while his son was badly wounded, but in a stable condition now in a hospital in Xaiyabury Province. Some pastors in Laos believed that the main motive of the killing was because Pastor Thongla was very bold in sharing the gospel. Pastor Thongla has a 14 year old son and 4 daughters. His wife died of cancer six months ago. Prayer Point: Pray that Christians in Laos will stay strong in their faith. Pray for the children of late Pastor Thongla. This month’s prayer points provided courtesy of Jubilee Campaign. — Shalom! Rowland Croucher http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm

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Six months ago, on May 27, Martin and Gracia Burnham were abducted by the Muslim guerrilla group, Abu Sayyaf. The couple had been celbrating their 18th wedding anniversary at a tourist resort when the guerrillas took them and several others at the resort hostage. More than 7000 US-backed soldiers have been sent to the island of Basilan to rescue the Americans and destroy the terrorists. On November 25, the missionary couple was permitted an interview with a free-lance journalist that was filmed by a local cable television crew. http://www.ntm.org/connect/headlines/burnham.shtml http://seattlep-i.nwsource.com/national/48252_phil27.shtml http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/11/15/phil.hostage.fr… x.html — Shalom! Rowland Croucher http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm

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Religious Liberty Prayer List – No. 143 – Wed 14 Nov 2001 INDONESIA: VIOLENCE RESURGES ACROSS THE ARCHIPELAGO Through the 1980s the Muslim jihad in Afghanistan drew mujahidin from as far west as Morocco and as far east as Indonesia and Southern Philippines, many recruited by the CIA. This invigorated their militant Islamic zeal and all the homelands of these returned Afghan war veterans have witnessed the growth of Islamist bodies, political parties and militant groups through the 1990s. This has been very significant in Indonesia, coinciding with the dramatic power shift arising from the country’s move into democracy. Islamist groups have joined forces with the disempowered parties (Suharto loyalists and military elites) and together they have created havoc. The bombing of Afghanistan has produced a climate of support from many previously moderate quarters that ‘justifies’ their jihad against foreigners and Christians. On 1 November, three predominantly Christian villages in Central Sulawesi were attacked by several hundred jihad militias, killing at least seven Christians, as well as some members of the Indonesian military there to defend the Christians. It is reported that the 30 terrorists killed and the 38 captured were Afghan in appearance and did not speak Indonesian. Most of the houses and churches in the region were torched. With Poso surrounded by jihad militias, the situation is critical for some 50,000 people who fear an impending massacre. They are also desperate for food and medicine. Gun battles are continuing. Christian leaders in Sulawesi are urging ‘prayer support’. Early on 1 November, about 800 mujahidin (presumbly of the Laskar Jihad) came out of the jungle to attack the Christian village of Waimulang on Buru Island in Maluku Province, while some 900 arrived in 14 boats and attacked from the sea. They were reportedly well armed, some with automatic weapons and grenades. The 13 Indonesian soldiers guarding the village fled into the forest with the villagers. All 350 houses and a church building were burned to the ground. Two Christians are known to have been killed and thousands are currently trying to escape on foot with their families through the jungle, with the mujahidin in pursuit. On Friday evening 9 November, some 300 Christians met for a special ‘Maluku Prays’ service in North Jakarta. Members of Kompak, a militant mujahidin group that has taken part in the destruction of churches in Maluku, drove past and threw a bomb into the church. The church was damaged but no one was injured. Two suspects have been arrested and more explosive devices recovered. The terrorists said they targeted the church because of its prayer for Maluku. Indonesia’s most eastern province, Irian Jaya (West Papua), typifies a political conflict or separatist struggle that has the potential to become a religious one, with predominantly Christian Papuans pitted against Muslim government forces. On 11 November, the Chairman of the pro-independence Papuan Presidium Council (PDP), Theys Hiyo Eluay, 63, was found tortured and dead in his car, near Jayapura. Theys’ driver, who saw him kidnapped, described the attackers as non-Papuan. PLEASE PRAY SPECIFICALLY FOR: * God to work through those in power in Indonesia, giving them the political will to deal decisively with the Laskar Jihad and other Islamist groups that promote hatred and sanction terrorism. * the Indonesian military to be non-partisan and that God will use them to disarm and defeat the Laskar Jihad and other militant Islamist groups. * God to protect Christians facing terrifying situations, being pursued or surrounded by mujahidin who are threatening to kill or forcibly Islamise the people; think especially of small children, parents, the frail and elderly, the wounded – may God be their supernatural shield and protector. "Then Nebuchadnezzar said, ‘Praise be to the God of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, who has sent his angel and rescued his servants…no other god can save in this way.’" Daniel 3:28,29. * great courage, strength and wisdom for the Christian leaders amidst grief, doubt, fear and anguish, that God will enable them to bring hope, comfort and peace to their people. SUMMARY TO USE IN BULLETINS UNABLE TO RUN THE WHOLE ARTICLE: VIOLENCE RESURGES ACROSS THE INDONESIAN ARCHIPELAGO Islamic militancy has increased in Indonesia over the past decade, and those groups are taking full advantage of world crises elsewhere to escalate their jihad activities across Indonesia. Currently, some 50,000 people in the Christian regions of Central Sulawesi are completely surrounded by jihad militia, and Christian leaders fear that a massacre could be imminent. Waimulang in Maluku has come under intense attack from land and sea by about 1700 well armed jihad militiamen. The whole population and their military guards have all fled into the jungle with the mujahidin in pursuit. All the 350 homes and the church in Waimulang have been torched. On 9 November, 300 Christians in North Jakarta were meeting to pray for Maluku when a bomb was thrown into the building. The church was damaged but no one was injured. Please pass this along to others with attribution to World Evangelical Fellowship (WEF) Religious Liberty The WEF Religious Liberty Commission sponsors this RL Prayer List to help individuals and groups pray specifically and regularly for religious liberty issues, and in particular to uphold the Church where it is suffering persecution. — Shalom! Rowland Croucher http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm

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Wednesday, November 14, 2001 "Cast me not away from thy presence, and take not thy holy spirit from me." Ps. 51:11 Situation: The women of the Nuba Mountains and the other marginalized areas of central and southern Sudan are particular targets of Khartoum’s "holy war," and Christian women are the most targeted of all. Abducted by "Islamic" militias, they are often raped, and forced into prostitution. Prayer Point: Pray that God may comfort the women of Sudan, and that the example of the faithful women of the Old and New Testaments – Rachel, Esther, Ruth, Mary, the mother of Jesus, Mary Magdalene – may guide them through their daily perils. This month’s prayer points provided courtesy of Bishop Gassis Sudan Relief Fund. Shalom! Rowland Croucher http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm

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[The reason the U.S. doesn't put more pressure on the terrorist Sudanese government is probably because the USA needs Sudanese gum arabic (amongst other things) for its chewing gum and soft drinks] To: Freedom Quest International Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 5:29 AM Government of Sudan military forces yesterday (November 11) used artillery to attack relief planes from the UN’s World Food Program. The question is once more put forcefully to the world community: when will Khartoum’s ongoing barbarism be decisively challenged? This most recent outrage occurred in the Nuba Mountains, one of the most desperate areas in all of Sudan. This past summer and early fall, during the time of a "hunger gap" when there were no harvests, 85,000 people faced starvation in the Nuba, according to a detailed assessment by humanitarian organizations. Relief efforts to a region that had already been under a ten-year siege by Khartoum were, and are, desperately needed. But the National Islamic Front regime in Khartoum, despite giving assurances that the UN mission could proceed, reneged yet again, shelling the airstrip at Kauda as the UN planes landed. Eric Reeves [November 12, 2001] The artillery shelling of UN planes carrying personnel and equipment for food drops to the long-suffering people of the Nuba is but another outrageous assault by Khartoum against humanitarian relief. Just last month the defining event was the bombing of a UN food relief effort in the west of Bahr el-Ghazal Province, near the town of Mangayath. Using UN flight plans filed with Khartoum (as required), the regime’s military aircraft deliberately anticipated the arrival of a UN food delivery plane and dropped bombs on an area where there were 20,000 internally displaced persons and UN personnel. Yesterday, Khartoum used its artillery in the Nuba to shell UN aircraft, which were arriving as a prelude to a food-drop for some of the most desperately food-deprived people in the world. This attack on UN humanitarian food relief must be condemned as an intolerable moral outrage by civilized nations everywhere. There is simply no meaning to the phrase "international community" if such acts escape the harshest censure and punishment. Notably, these attacks on UN humanitarian food relief come in the immediate wake of the preposterous and deeply revealing claim by the Khartoum regime that there is "no food shortfall in the country" (BBC Monitoring Service [Nov 7, 2001]). The minister of state for agriculture, Abd-al-Jabbar Husayn "denied the existence of a food gap in Sudan." What Mr. Husayn really means is that he and his brutal partners in the National Islamic Front don’t care that people are starving in southern Sudan. There is no "food gap" only if the desperate plight of southerners is ignored. Indeed, through their military actions Khartoum’s forces have for years continued a campaign to destroy the people of the south by denying food relief access to stricken populations, by bombing humanitarian relief efforts and civilian targets critical to the food economy of the south, and by a savage policy of scorched-earth warfare in the oil regions. The latter effort entails the destruction of innocent men, women and children; the destruction of agriculture, agricultural tools, herds of cattle (central to the food economies of the Dinka and Nuer peoples); and the burning of food stocks. Many of these scorched-earth attacks are mounted by helicopter gunships deployed from the airstrips of Talisman Energy (Canada) and its partners in the Great Nile project. They attack villages, fleeing civilians, cattle, and anything that might sustain life in the oil regions. The effort is to create an expanding cordon sanitaire. This campaign has now been indisputably documented by numerous human rights organizations, the Canadian government, independent news reporters, and the last three UN Special Rapporteurs for Sudan. Moreover, in a very recent commentary, the present UN Special Rapporteur, Gerhart Baum, declared that oil continues to exacerbate the appalling human rights record of the Khartoum regime: "Oil exploitation has continued to have a negative impact on the human rights situation," Baum told [UN General Assembly] delegates in New York yesterday. "There is no concrete evidence of oil revenues being spent for the development of the south, in spite of the fact that 40% of the national budget comes from oil." (News Article by UN Integrated Regional Information Network, November 09, 2001 at 15:15:50: EST [-5 GMT]) Baum also declared in the same address: "I am particularly concerned at the recurrence of bombing of civilians, particularly in the Nuba Mountains and in Blue Nile State, which has continued unabated, thus severely hampering access to humanitarian aid." It cannot be stressed often enough that there is only one military air force in Sudan’s war and that it belongs to the Khartoum regime. Sudan’s agony could not be more dramatically or terribly evident, nor the connection to oil development more clearly demonstrated. And yet the world neither condemns Khartoum nor works to halt oil development, the engine of this massive, ongoing human destruction. The inaction that history will record is no less shameful because these vicious realities are not reported prominently, or because they have about them a sickening familiarity. The record of this unnamed holocaust will be marked always by the opprobrium of our unforgivable indifference. Freedom Quest is an incorporated, non-profit organization. — Shalom! Rowland Croucher http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm

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Mr. Croucher, you post spam here for your ministry. Why are you afraid to answer questions regarding it. Only a cult refuses to reply to questions about themselves. The DataRat

And you post spam here to alt.atheism to promote yours? Whats the diffrence? *DW* a#344

Response:

Mr. Croucher, you post spam here for your ministry. Why are you afraid to answer questions regarding it. Only a cult refuses to reply to questions about themselves.

C’mon Ratso. Do you expcet someone to bite a hook you wouldn’t look twice at? BAM

Response:

Mr. Croucher, you post spam here for your ministry. Why are you afraid to answer questions regarding it. Only a cult refuses to reply to questions about themselves. The DataRat

Response:

Good morning Rowland; Judging from the text of your article, I’d say the Christians started the problem, not the Islamics. Cheers, John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Religious Liberty Prayer List – No. 089 – Thu 02 Nov 2000 **** Please participate in IDOP – 12 November 2000 **** (International Day of Prayer for the Persecuted Church) With IDOP in view, RLP this week and next will not major on one issue, but will look at several areas needing a world-wide prayer focus on IDOP (and indeed daily). They are tightly closed nations and so news about the Christians who suffer there rarely reaches us. It is imperative, however, that they are not forgotten. Each paragraph is a self-contained 120-word unit, so that any one or more of them could be used in bulletins. +~+ NORTH AFRICA: TINY MINORITIES IN NATIONS UNDER SIEGE +~+ In Algeria in June 1990, Islamic fundamentalists won a majority of seats in provincial and municipal elections, the first time they had achieved a majority in a free vote in any Arab Muslim nation. In January 1992, Islamic fundamentalists won 81% of the vote in the first round of voting, contesting 231 of 430 parliamentary seats. At that point, the President resigned, the military stepped in and the second round of elections were cancelled. Since then, over 100,000 people have died in the resulting violence. In January 2000, the government launched an offensive against Islamic militants, calling-up thousands of army reservists. Yet up to 200 people a month have still been reported killed in attacks attributed to the militants. The land is under siege. Algeria, a nation of 30 million, has only an estimated 25,000 Christians (predominantly Catholic), most living in Algiers. The only legal education system is Islamic. Christian witness is illegal, and conversions from Islam are very rare as, under Islamic law, conversion also is illegal. It is virtually impossible to get news about the minute Christian minority in Algeria. Likewise, news of other tiny Christian groups across North Africa is very difficult to find. Morocco, Libya and Tunisia are all in the Open Doors World Watch List top twenty persecuting nations. Christians in these nations suffer intensely and they must not be forgotten. *** PLEASE PRAY FOR their safety and for physical, emotional and spiritual strength in the midst of Islam. +~+ AFGHANISTAN: A NATION IN NEED OF A MIRACLE +~+ Afghanistan is a land of 5,000 mosques but no ‘churches’. However, there are believed to be around 1,000 secret Christians living there under hostile Taliban rule. Afghanistan is currently facing famine with the most serious drought in 30 years. The UN’s World Food Programme warns that some 3 million Afghans are seriously affected by this and up to a million are at immediate risk of starvation. WFP food supplies will have run out by February 2001. The severity of the drought has forced Afghanistan to open up to Western and European assistance. Pray concerning this opening. According to a BBC correspondent in Kabul, Afghans are looking for spiritual answers to their many questions as to the cause of the country’s crippling drought. The Taliban has blamed the people for attracting Allah’s wrath through religious slackness. Many Afghans, however, are wondering if it is the Taliban that has attracted divine wrath. While these questions are on the hearts of Afghans facing starvation, pray for God to work a miracle in that land, to reveal himself and his mighty power to bring salvation and heal the land. Religious freedom is non-existent in Afghanistan. It is one of the most hostile and dangerous nations on earth for Christians. We have around 1,000 brothers and sisters there, struggling to survive under the Taliban, whilst millions of others face death without a Saviour. +~+ NORTH KOREA: A RAY OF HOPE SHINES INTO THE DARKNESS +~+ Since IDOP 1999, the situation in North Korea has taken a dramatic and remarkable turn. After 50 years of Stalinist-style oppression, the first glimmers of hope are appearing. A tiny crack has appeared in the border between South Korea (one of the most Christian and mission-spirited nations on earth) and North Korea (one of the most intensely persecuting nations on earth, with an estimated 100,000 Christians suffering in labour camps today). Talks have commenced, rail links are to be opened, and family re-unions are being organised. In a most encouraging development, North Korea’s President Kim Jong-Il has requested that America send English language teachers to North Korea to help improve language training courses. He is willing to accept even Korean-Americans. Pray that God, who has created this opening, will tear the curtain apart. PLEASE PRAY FOR: * Afghan and North Korean Christians, severely oppressed in harsh and often appalling conditions, and suffering greatly in constant fear for their lives; may they have an overwhelming sense of the presence of God. * their physical, emotional and spiritual strength to endure without losing hope. * for God to work a miracle in these nations, opening the door, tearing down the walls, setting the captives free and flooding the land with his glory. Do not consider prayer to be a passive activity … it is advocacy to the highest authority, to the only authority in the universe with the power to change situations. Prayer is proactive! And do not doubt the power and will of God to act in response to prayer. "What god is so great as our God? You are the God who performs miracles; you display your power among the people." Ps 77:13,14 "For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea." Hab 2:14 Please pass this along to others with attribution to World Evangelical Fellowship (WEF) Religious Liberty The WEF Religious Liberty Commission sponsors this RL Prayer List to help individuals and groups pray specifically and regularly for religious liberty issues, and in particular to uphold the Church where it is suffering persecution. — Director, John Mark Ministries: counseling and consulting services for pastors, ex-pastors, church leaders and managers. Website (3,400+ articles): http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm Homepage: http://skyfamily.com/rcroucher/index.html F.W.Boreham page: http://skyfamily.com/rcroucher/index2.html

Response:

Religious Liberty Prayer List – No. 089 – Thu 02 Nov 2000 **** Please participate in IDOP – 12 November 2000 **** (International Day of Prayer for the Persecuted Church) With IDOP in view, RLP this week and next will not major on one issue, but will look at several areas needing a world-wide prayer focus on IDOP (and indeed daily). They are tightly closed nations and so news about the Christians who suffer there rarely reaches us. It is imperative, however, that they are not forgotten. Each paragraph is a self-contained 120-word unit, so that any one or more of them could be used in bulletins. +~+ NORTH AFRICA: TINY MINORITIES IN NATIONS UNDER SIEGE +~+ In Algeria in June 1990, Islamic fundamentalists won a majority of seats in provincial and municipal elections, the first time they had achieved a majority in a free vote in any Arab Muslim nation. In January 1992, Islamic fundamentalists won 81% of the vote in the first round of voting, contesting 231 of 430 parliamentary seats. At that point, the President resigned, the military stepped in and the second round of elections were cancelled. Since then, over 100,000 people have died in the resulting violence. In January 2000, the government launched an offensive against Islamic militants, calling-up thousands of army reservists. Yet up to 200 people a month have still been reported killed in attacks attributed to the militants. The land is under siege. Algeria, a nation of 30 million, has only an estimated 25,000 Christians (predominantly Catholic), most living in Algiers. The only legal education system is Islamic. Christian witness is illegal, and conversions from Islam are very rare as, under Islamic law, conversion also is illegal. It is virtually impossible to get news about the minute Christian minority in Algeria. Likewise, news of other tiny Christian groups across North Africa is very difficult to find. Morocco, Libya and Tunisia are all in the Open Doors World Watch List top twenty persecuting nations. Christians in these nations suffer intensely and they must not be forgotten. *** PLEASE PRAY FOR their safety and for physical, emotional and spiritual strength in the midst of Islam. +~+ AFGHANISTAN: A NATION IN NEED OF A MIRACLE +~+ Afghanistan is a land of 5,000 mosques but no ‘churches’. However, there are believed to be around 1,000 secret Christians living there under hostile Taliban rule. Afghanistan is currently facing famine with the most serious drought in 30 years. The UN’s World Food Programme warns that some 3 million Afghans are seriously affected by this and up to a million are at immediate risk of starvation. WFP food supplies will have run out by February 2001. The severity of the drought has forced Afghanistan to open up to Western and European assistance. Pray concerning this opening. According to a BBC correspondent in Kabul, Afghans are looking for spiritual answers to their many questions as to the cause of the country’s crippling drought. The Taliban has blamed the people for attracting Allah’s wrath through religious slackness. Many Afghans, however, are wondering if it is the Taliban that has attracted divine wrath. While these questions are on the hearts of Afghans facing starvation, pray for God to work a miracle in that land, to reveal himself and his mighty power to bring salvation and heal the land. Religious freedom is non-existent in Afghanistan. It is one of the most hostile and dangerous nations on earth for Christians. We have around 1,000 brothers and sisters there, struggling to survive under the Taliban, whilst millions of others face death without a Saviour. +~+ NORTH KOREA: A RAY OF HOPE SHINES INTO THE DARKNESS +~+ Since IDOP 1999, the situation in North Korea has taken a dramatic and remarkable turn. After 50 years of Stalinist-style oppression, the first glimmers of hope are appearing. A tiny crack has appeared in the border between South Korea (one of the most Christian and mission-spirited nations on earth) and North Korea (one of the most intensely persecuting nations on earth, with an estimated 100,000 Christians suffering in labour camps today). Talks have commenced, rail links are to be opened, and family re-unions are being organised. In a most encouraging development, North Korea’s President Kim Jong-Il has requested that America send English language teachers to North Korea to help improve language training courses. He is willing to accept even Korean-Americans. Pray that God, who has created this opening, will tear the curtain apart. PLEASE PRAY FOR: * Afghan and North Korean Christians, severely oppressed in harsh and often appalling conditions, and suffering greatly in constant fear for their lives; may they have an overwhelming sense of the presence of God. * their physical, emotional and spiritual strength to endure without losing hope. * for God to work a miracle in these nations, opening the door, tearing down the walls, setting the captives free and flooding the land with his glory. Do not consider prayer to be a passive activity … it is advocacy to the highest authority, to the only authority in the universe with the power to change situations. Prayer is proactive! And do not doubt the power and will of God to act in response to prayer. "What god is so great as our God? You are the God who performs miracles; you display your power among the people." Ps 77:13,14 "For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea." Hab 2:14 Please pass this along to others with attribution to World Evangelical Fellowship (WEF) Religious Liberty The WEF Religious Liberty Commission sponsors this RL Prayer List to help individuals and groups pray specifically and regularly for religious liberty issues, and in particular to uphold the Church where it is suffering persecution. — Director, John Mark Ministries: counseling and consulting services for pastors, ex-pastors, church leaders and managers. Website (3,400+ articles): http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm Homepage: http://skyfamily.com/rcroucher/index.html F.W.Boreham page: http://skyfamily.com/rcroucher/index2.html

Response:

Book Recommendations?

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Question:

Per copy/paste. Here’s a post I just made in single-parents ng: Okay, here’s my opinion on a couple of books. My sister bought me The Courage to be a Single Mother: Becoming Whole Again After Divorce, by Sheila Ellison. The book got on my nerves so badly, that I couldn’t finish it. I got about halfway through it and said, ‘this isn’t the book for me’. Here’s why: 1. Ellison whines incessantly about how awful her finances were and how hard her life was after divorce, but gee… she had enough money in her bank account to not only move back to the states from New Zealand, but to live on her own for an entire year (jobless) with a child in therapy that insurance wouldn’t cover!!!! Yah, she was a real food stamps kinda gal wasn’t she? Doesn’t sound like a terrible life to me! The most sickening part is how she obviously tries to downplay her fortunate life. I mean if you’re lucky, you’re just lucky. Just shout it right out when you know, but don’t be so condescending to think we are so stupid to believe otherwise. She also talks about how she never would’ve dreamed that her marriage would end in divorce. Yet, she was set to be a Catholic Missionary and her husband was an atheist? Get real! 2. Some of the women she wrote about in the book deserve no less than sleeping in a ditch somewhere. One woman was sick of her marriage. She moved out, left the kids with him, then when all was said and done, was shocked to find out she lost custody because she left her children behind. Hello? She didn’t seem to be too interested in custody before. This surprised her? IMHO, it’s a 1 on a scale of 1-10. The only reason it gets a one is for the idea of telling stories of women and their divorces. It’s always good to hear stories of how some people did in fact have it worse than you. You then feel slightly thankful. Yet, where she found some of these moronic women is beyond me. Onto the next book. The next one is just the kind of book I needed titled Life After Divorce, by Bobbie Reed, Ph.D. This is more a therapy book than a book about other women who made it through. Though it’s a Christian book, I highly recommend this one to all. Yes, I’m a Christian and yes, I’m supposed to witness but let’s put that aside for now. You can skip the spiritual part and still get through the book. It’s a wonderful thing though I’m not finished. The key here is to read one chapter a week. Take it slow. It even has ideas on how to start your own divorce support group. My next book will be Growing Through Divorce, by Jim Smoke…. that is unless something else catches my eye. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone recommend any books that have been helpful in dealing with all the emotional issues that come with being divorced? I’ve been reading "How to survive the loss of a love" on line and have found it helpful and comforting. Soon I will be leaving what I thought was a good marriage and I must admit I’m having a hell of a time emotionally. I did not want a divorce but I have no choice now. I simply must go on, but it is not easy for me to accept this. Thanks for the help, Patrick Before you buy.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone recommend any books that have been helpful in dealing with all the emotional issues that come with being divorced? I’ve been reading "How to survive the loss of a love" on line and have found it helpful and comforting. Soon I will be leaving what I thought was a good marriage and I must admit I’m having a hell of a time emotionally. I did not want a divorce but I have no choice now. I simply must go on, but it is not easy for me to accept this. Thanks for the help, Patrick Before you buy.

**"Crazy Time" Abigal Trafford **"Still Friends" Barbara Quick (esp helpful if there are kids involved) ** "Taking the High Road" Nailah Shami "The Good Divorce" Constance Ahrons "New Creative Divorce" Mel Krantzler & Pat Krantzler **These three are my "favorites" (if there can be such a thing when dealing with this subject. Still Friends may sound like an odd one, but I felt it gave me hope, that since we have children, we are connected for the rest of our lives. If it was possible to become friends, after all is said and done, the better all of our lives would be. It is VERY hard to remember that at the low points, of which I am in right now. You sound as if you are also. Crazy Time spells out the different stages that a person typically goes through when dealing with divorce. I felt comforted by the fact that what I was feeling and going through all "fit" into what was "normal" Taking the High Road is helpful with people who are less "friendly". Helps you to see why it is not always a good thing to be advisarial (sp?) I also found good information in The Good Divorce, but found it dry reading, and I have not completely finished "the New Creative Divorce" It is so far a pretty good book. I am only through pg 50, out of 222, so to recommend it at this point, well….. My idea of a good evening is to light a fire, put on some music, and read a good book. The stbx didn’t "allow" reading by the fire, as the reading light took away from the atmosphere created by the fire. Now I will be able to read by the fire if I want I am also a person who feels the need to read EVERYTHING written about this situation I am currently in. I have read several other books out there, but those were most helpful. My mediator also has me reading "Moms House, Dads House". Even though we are birdnesting, I have found the book helpful. I just need to finish it. Good Luck to you Cal~ Before you buy.

Response:

The best book is a handgun manual which teaches straight shooting. Can anyone recommend any books that have been helpful in dealing with all the emotional issues that come with being divorced? I’ve been reading "How to survive the loss of a love" on line and have found it helpful and comforting. Soon I will be leaving what I thought was a good marriage and I must admit I’m having a hell of a time emotionally. I did not want a divorce but I have no choice now. I simply must go on, but it is not easy for me to accept this. Thanks for the help, Patrick Before you buy.

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Response:

There are numerous books listed on our ASD Resource page…the URL is listed below my name. ((hugs)) Daisy alt.support.divorce Who’s Who: Divorce Resources and Information: http://www.geocities.com/asddaisy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone recommend any books that have been helpful in dealing with all the emotional issues that come with being divorced? I’ve been reading "How to survive the loss of a love" on line and have found it helpful and comforting. Soon I will be leaving what I thought was a good marriage and I must admit I’m having a hell of a time emotionally. I did not want a divorce but I have no choice now. I simply must go on, but it is not easy for me to accept this. Thanks for the help, Patrick Before you buy.

Response:

hehehe…we think alike!! :) Daisy alt.support.divorce Who’s Who: Divorce Resources and Information: http://www.geocities.com/asddaisy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone recommend any books that have been helpful in dealing with all the emotional issues that come with being divorced? I’ve been reading "How to survive the loss of a love" on line and have found it helpful and comforting. Soon I will be leaving what I thought was a good marriage and I must admit I’m having a hell of a time emotionally. I did not want a divorce but I have no choice now. I simply must go on, but it is not easy for me to accept this. Thanks for the help, Patrick Before you buy. Patrick: Check out the information on books at the ASD website listed below: alt.support.divorce Who’s Who: Divorce Resources and Information: http://www.geocities.com/asddaisy I have read and found useful from this list: The Myth of Male Power by Dr. Warren Farrell, and Love Must Be Tough by Dr. James C. Dobson Best of Luck Lloyd Before you buy.

Response:

embarrassed myself at the mall today

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Question:

your right one bad apple…’er sunspot should not ruin our hopes….. bitter sweets…. ((hug)) vw

Response:

Tell me about it. I am scared to death of the dating scene and any relationship right know would be a disaster on the "Titanic" scale, but I have this thought of walking up behind a women and giving her a big hug and a kiss on the neck. Can’t shake it from my head

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I find that I am not dwelling either. I am finding moving on harder than I expected. I really don’t have the urge to be close to anyone while feeling the need to be close to someone. What a contradiction, huh? C’est la vie. <Giant Snip I have always loved that song, and that scene. It was hard to listen to at first. All loves songs for that matter, but now it is getting much easier. I am not dwelling on the past, and that makes it much easier. And I agree with you, this NG is definitely part of the reason I am doing so well. To be able to release your feelings, and fears to people who have been there, and through it to the other side is an amazing gift to those of us still wading through the muck. Cal~ Before you buy.

Response:

The can opener is a funny story. I had to swipe my can opener on a packing raid early on because she was going to keep it. Oh dang, David….that was *our* movie! And *our* song!…when things were going downhill between us, I even went out and bought the video and watched it with him. God, talk about uncomfortable! I guess "you can’t go home again." But, you know it was also the little things that could get to me. Once, while sorting through the items in the house, I found a can opener that he had insisted that we buy (because it was "better" than the other kind). I was standing in the kitchen, sobbing over a can opener…because *he* bought it! Of course, I now have my own can opener! Karin

<Big Snip

Response:

I find that I am not dwelling either. I am finding moving on harder than I expected. I really don’t have the urge to be close to anyone while feeling the need to be close to someone. What a contradiction, huh? C’est la vie. <Giant Snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have always loved that song, and that scene. It was hard to listen to at first. All loves songs for that matter, but now it is getting much easier. I am not dwelling on the past, and that makes it much easier. And I agree with you, this NG is definitely part of the reason I am doing so well. To be able to release your feelings, and fears to people who have been there, and through it to the other side is an amazing gift to those of us still wading through the muck. Cal~ Before you buy.

Response:

I have always loved that song, and that scene. It was hard to listen to at first. All loves songs for that matter, but now it is getting much easier. I am not dwelling on the past, and that makes it much easier. And I agree with you, this NG is definitely part of the reason I am doing so well. To be able to release your feelings, and fears to people who have been there, and through it to the other side is an amazing gift to those of us still wading through the muck. Cal~ Before you buy.

Response:

When I got inside, there was a guy at the urinal. I stupidly said "isn’t this the ladie’s room?". He said "no, sweetheart, this is the men’s room". Then he said "well, it’s nothing you’ve never seen before, right?"

You should have said "Yes but I didn’t know they made them that small". — Joe

Response:

I cried one time over a little cheappie toy that played you are my sunshine I sang it to my children often…they were with their father at the time the only time I had been away from them was for the birth of ran home and called the kids and got sarcasim from im, the gf sitting nxt to him of corse(funny I could always tell when she was around) pplin the store were very kind, that made it all the more embarrassing…..in hind sight maybe it reached someone there..innerly told them to run home and hug a kid or spouse…I’m usually cool about the emotion thing (hold it till I am alone), but my kids melt me like a snow cone in pheniox…… don’t feel bad

Response:

I cried one time over a little cheappie toy that played you are my sunshine I sang it to my children often…

That little tune has caused me a lot of heartache. I called my wife "Sunshine" for as long as I’ve known her. I thought she was the bright spot in a cludy world. I too used to sing that tune to her (even though I can’t carry a tune at all). But I’ve been shown how little the nickname fits who she is now. So I started referring to her as "Sunspot", which fits a lot better! Someday, some new sunshine will enter my life – I won’t let my ex’s actions tarnish that image.

Response:

Rags!!!! Welcome back! — Gentleman Jim A Country Boy and Southern Gentleman http://home.earthlink.net/~jimedharrison/ God created me in His image and gave His son that my sins would be forgiven. Please don’t think that you can create a better me than God did, or that you should be any less forgiving. I watched you walk and saw poetry in motion; I touched your face and felt a sculptor’s dream; I looked into your eyes and fell deliciously in love. Then I awoke. Where are you now?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I cried one time over a little cheappie toy that played you are my sunshine I sang it to my children often… That little tune has caused me a lot of heartache. I called my wife "Sunshine" for as long as I’ve known her. I thought she was the bright spot in a cludy world. I too used to sing that tune to her (even though I can’t carry a tune at all). But I’ve been shown how little the nickname fits who she is now. So I started referring to her as "Sunspot", which fits a lot better! Someday, some new sunshine will enter my life – I won’t let my ex’s actions tarnish that image.

Response:

Oh dang, David….that was *our* movie! And *our* song!…when things were going downhill between us, I even went out and bought the video and watched it with him. God, talk about uncomfortable! I guess "you can’t go home again." But, you know it was also the little things that could get to me. Once, while sorting through the items in the house, I found a can opener that he had insisted that we buy (because it was "better" than the other kind). I was standing in the kitchen, sobbing over a can opener…because *he* bought it! Of course, I now have my own can opener! Karin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For some reason the scene in the movie "Say Anything" where John Cusak is holding the stero above his head outside his girlfriends’s window with the Peter Gabriel song "In Your Eyes" playing brings tears to my eyes everytime. It used to happen with a smile for nice reasons when I was happily married and now it seems to happen due to the loss I am now feeling from divorce. BTW — Thanks all who participate here. I have been feeling noticably better and more positive since writing some of my feelings on the board. I cried one time over a little cheappie toy that played you are my sunshine I sang it to my children often… That little tune has caused me a lot of heartache. I called my wife "Sunshine" for as long as I’ve known her. I thought she was the bright spot in a cludy world. I too used to sing that tune to her (even though I can’t carry a tune at all). But I’ve been shown how little the nickname fits who she is now. So I started referring to her as "Sunspot", which fits a lot better! Someday, some new sunshine will enter my life – I won’t let my ex’s actions tarnish that image.

– "Circumstances do not make a person, they reveal him or her." –Richard Carlson

Response:

For some reason the scene in the movie "Say Anything" where John Cusak is holding the stero above his head outside his girlfriends’s window with the Peter Gabriel song "In Your Eyes" playing brings tears to my eyes everytime. It used to happen with a smile for nice reasons when I was happily married and now it seems to happen due to the loss I am now feeling from divorce. BTW — Thanks all who participate here. I have been feeling noticably better and more positive since writing some of my feelings on the board. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I cried one time over a little cheappie toy that played you are my sunshine I sang it to my children often… That little tune has caused me a lot of heartache. I called my wife "Sunshine" for as long as I’ve known her. I thought she was the bright spot in a cludy world. I too used to sing that tune to her (even though I can’t carry a tune at all). But I’ve been shown how little the nickname fits who she is now. So I started referring to her as "Sunspot", which fits a lot better! Someday, some new sunshine will enter my life – I won’t let my ex’s actions tarnish that image.

Response:

Good for you… And it’s ok to cry.. When i moved into my apartment in 12/97 i couldn’t afford a Christmas tree and really saw no reason to have one (just for myself). I used to do up holidays REAL big, all the decorations, foods, music, etc…. when i lived with the kids… Anyway, at the grocery store i ended up buying myself a tiny Christmas tree and called it my "New Beginnings" tree. It was my first Christmas alone, and i think i mostly just stayed in bed that day.. When you said "New Beginnings" it just reminded me of it… Oh, btw, the tree died a few weeks later…. and so did my hopes (of a "new beginning") for quite awhile, as well…. KEEP PUSHING FORWARD!! :-) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is a new store at our local mall called Successories. It sells motivational books, pictures, awards, etc. I was looking around and on a rack there were small 5 x 7 pictures, with different sayings on them. I looked at a few, and right there in the middle was one titled "new beginnings" Underneath the title reads "in life what sometimes appears to be the end, is really a new beginning" Now the embarrassing part: I burst into tears, and proceeded to *sob* for a good 10 minutes. I just couldn’t stop crying. I never saw a store clear out so fast in my life. The saleman was so nice, went to get me tissues from out back, and tried to assure me that gee, happens all the time, don’t worry about it. Needless to say, I bought the picture. I just don’t think I will be able to show my face there any time soon! lol This is the way I am trying to look at my situation right now. I never wanted this divorce, and 4 months ago, I wasn’t sure I would ever feel as strong as I do, tears notwithstanding. I owe a debt of gratitude to this support group, btw. Thanks Cal~ Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

Don’t sweat it Cal. I’m sure most all of us has broken down at times in the strangest of places. I know that in the beginning of this mess I’d almost never remove my sunglasses, trying to cover up the anguish that was showing in my eyes. Now, it almost disappoints me that I can’t shed a tear even when things are getting quite ugly. However, I’ve noticed that those types of stores along with Christian book stores, seem so often to bring people to tears for so many reasons. But that’s not a bad thing. Don’t avoid such places, often the tears are much needed. As for the "embarrassment" – who cares what others may think. Encourage yourself by knowing those that might judge you for your tears would likely be whimpering like a baby if they were going through the same stage of dealing with a similar trauma. You’re doing good and you get to experience life however you now choose! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is a new store at our local mall called Successories. It sells motivational books, pictures, awards, etc. I was looking around and on a rack there were small 5 x 7 pictures, with different sayings on them. I looked at a few, and right there in the middle was one titled "new beginnings" Underneath the title reads "in life what sometimes appears to be the end, is really a new beginning" Now the embarrassing part: I burst into tears, and proceeded to *sob* for a good 10 minutes. I just couldn’t stop crying. I never saw a store clear out so fast in my life. The saleman was so nice, went to get me tissues from out back, and tried to assure me that gee, happens all the time, don’t worry about it. Needless to say, I bought the picture. I just don’t think I will be able to show my face there any time soon! lol This is the way I am trying to look at my situation right now. I never wanted this divorce, and 4 months ago, I wasn’t sure I would ever feel as strong as I do, tears notwithstanding. I owe a debt of gratitude to this support group, btw. Thanks Cal~ Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

When I finally arrived at JFK airport Monday, I was exhausted, been crying and was really down because of the situation with my guy. I was waiting what seemed an eternity for the limo back to CT and I had to go to the bathroom really badly. I hauled my luggage cart to the restroom door, plowed through with the thing, making all kinds of racket. When I got inside, there was a guy at the urinal. I stupidly said "isn’t this the ladie’s room?". He said "no, sweetheart, this is the men’s room". Then he said "well, it’s nothing you’ve never seen before, right?" These are those "someday we’ll look back on" moments that you’ll laugh like hell at.

Response:

There is a new store at our local mall called Successories. It sells motivational books, pictures, awards, etc. I was looking around and on a rack there were small 5 x 7 pictures, with different sayings on them. I looked at a few, and right there in the middle was one titled "new beginnings" Underneath the title reads "in life what sometimes appears to be the end, is really a new beginning" Now the embarrassing part: I burst into tears, and proceeded to *sob* for a good 10 minutes. I just couldn’t stop crying. I never saw a store clear out so fast in my life. The saleman was so nice, went to get me tissues from out back, and tried to assure me that gee, happens all the time, don’t worry about it. Needless to say, I bought the picture. I just don’t think I will be able to show my face there any time soon! lol This is the way I am trying to look at my situation right now. I never wanted this divorce, and 4 months ago, I wasn’t sure I would ever feel as strong as I do, tears notwithstanding. I owe a debt of gratitude to this support group, btw. Thanks Cal~ Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

Cal, I can identify with that feeling. Not long after a breakup a couple years back, I was in a grocery store (of all places) when the sobbing thing overtook me … Some silly song came on and I was there in the condiments frantically trying to find my sunglasses with tears streaming down my face. Can’t remember the details, but remember the moment I lost it. Driving home from the store, the tears just flowed. They serve a purpose. Most people can relate to the feeling. Emotions have to be experienced – understanding that it just a process we must move through helps in dealing with their unexpected arrival at inappropriate times. Most people will have life-changing events throughout their lives and will not judge you. Don’t worry about returning to the store … must have been a reason you were there … to lead you to that purchase. Best, Donna Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

Faith Without Flaws

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nah, that’d be too easy. After all, an unflawed faith would be very difficult to refute or deny and we humans can’t Where are your refutations against Christianity? They melt beneath you like snowflakes in the fullness of the summer sun. How poetic. Thanks for that thought. Here are some references for your consideration: The Jesus Puzzle. Did Christianity Begin with a Mythical Christ? Challenging the Existence of an Historical Jesus-, by Earl J. Doherty https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0968601405 "… The epistle to the Hebrews is anonymous. Of those under the names of Peter, James, John and Jude, none today are judged to be authentic. That is, they were not written by those legendary followers of Jesus. These epistles too may originally have been anonymous, or had their original ascriptions dropped; new names were added, possibly at the time the epistles were collected and a canon was being formed …"

Hebrews being anonymous hardly invalidates the truths that it contains. I am unaware of any contestation of authenticity of the other writings you list. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —- The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold-, by Acharaya S http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0932813747 http://www.truthbeknown.com/christcon.htm http://www.truthbeknown.com/christ3.htm http://www.truthbeknown.com/christ4.htm "… In reality, like Jesus, the famous biblical disciples are recorded nowhere in the works of any historian of their time. The only source of the disciples/apostles is in Christian literature, in which the stories of their ‘lives’ are in fact highly apocryphal, allegorical and, therefore, inadequate as ‘history’ or ‘biography’. … The disciple, apostle and saint Peter, ‘the Rock’ to whom so much of the Christian religion is entrusted, is easily revealed to be a mythological character and old motif …"

Wrong..the rock that Jesus spoke of was self referential. Peter was not the rock upon which the church was to be built. The Book Your Church Doesn’t Want You to Read, by Tim C. Leedom (Editor) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0939040158 "Consider this book as a kind of consumer protection guide to religion, a big step forward toward religious literacy.

I’m sure it is goot at showing religion to be a bunch of hooey, which is exactly what I believe. Readers will explore myths, origins, fundamentalism, television ministries, the identical stories of Stellar/Pagan/ Christian beliefs, unfounded doctrines, child abuse, the Year 2000, and women’s rights. It’s entertaining and readable, with a sense of humor reflecting the absurdities of fundamental religion — while being inoffensive."

Religion is more than just absurd..it is dangerous. — Who Wrote the New Testament? The Making of Christian Myth, by Burton L. Mack http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060655186 "I am very selective about books I choose to buy and display; I prefer those that can really make a difference or illustrate a method or a new perspective. Mack’s book does an excellent job of debunking and explaining the Christian myth and deserves widespread reading. If superstition and myth can be recognized and understood as such, society will be strengthened and enriched. It is like the Emperor’s New Clothes – someone has pointed at the Emperor and written an accessible and enlightening book on the subject."

And you chose not to quote some of the more persuaisive points in it. May I remind you that this is an area for discussion, not advertisment of literature. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —- One Jesus, Many Christs : How Jesus Inspired Not One True Christianity, but Many : The Truth About Christian Origins, by Gregory J. Riley http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060667990 "Riley argues that Jesus had a lot in common with familiar figures like Hercules and Achilles. The classical heroes claimed a mix of divine-human parentage, usually with a virgin human mother and a god for a father; they possessed some remarkable or even miraculous skill; they had divine enemies and were hated by powerful humans; they died, often young and violently, as martyrs for a principle; and their deaths powerfully transformed other people’s lives through emulation. Jesus fits the bill perfectly, Riley argues, because the Gospel writers had obtained a classical education, which meant that they were thoroughly steeped in heroic lore.

You speak of other religions. I assure you I can show you how Jesus taught something totally new on this planet that never before existed on this planet. Early converts readily embraced Christianity’s message, despite tremendous penalty from a hostile Roman government, because it captured the heroic formula that peasants had heard recited and then memorized.

And you can provide historical evidence of this? There are manuscripts that show this going on? Or is it mere speculation on what might have happened? The second half of the book drives home this point about the source of Christianity’s popularity. Riley demonstrates that it certainly wasn’t doctrine that attracted the masses, since the earliest apostles couldn’t agree on the most basic tenets of the faith.

Care to name some? Dozens of sects arose in different cities, all claiming to be the religion of the risen Christ (though whether he had risen in spirit or body was itself a subject of heated debate). What they could agree on was that Jesus was a hero and that they, as martyrs for the faith, could become heroes themselves.

By your own statement, they also agreed that he had risen. Such faithfulness constituted the religion of Christ into the fourth century, which witnessed the conversion of Constantine and the great creedal controversies."

I have some question of Constantine’s conversion. However, hero worship is hardly a basis for lasting faithfulness. My english teacher was my hero back in grade school. He certainly influenced me for a while, but not for that long. Hero worship comes and goes as do all fads. No, that explenation just doesn’t cut it. — The Case Against Christianity, by Michael Martin http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1566390818 "Logical examination of Christianity by a professional philosopher – This book is logically thorough and destroys Christianity on all important evidential and rational grounds, although I doubt that any whose faith has been sufficient thus far will be led to deconvert. It will however expose them to the fact that they have no rational grounds for their belief."

Believing in an all powerful, all knowing, independent, and omnipresent God could never be considered a rational act. The idea of "rational" is tied to this world(universe) and this existance and cannot be a standard by which God can be measured. — Pagan and Christian Creeds: Their Origin and Meaning, by Edward Carpenter, preface by Paul Tice http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=158509… " A very level-headed approach, doesn’t go after Christianity to attack it, merely compares and contrasts it with the Pagan world and explores similarities and hidden meanings still present in the religion today. Incredible implications."

I can show you that all other religions are a dead end. Only Christianity ever had or ever will have a chance at being right. — Why Christianity Must Change or Die : A Bishop Speaks to Believers in Exile, by John Shelby Spong, Richard Dominick http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060675365 "Spong refers to himself as a believer in exile. He believes the world into which Christianity was born was limited and provincial, particularly when viewed from the perspective of the progress in knowledge and technology made over the past two millennia. This makes any ideas or beliefs formulated in 1st-century Judea totally inadequate to our progressive minds and lives today. So Spong is in exile until Christianity is re-formed to discard all of the outdated and, according to Spong, false tenets of Christianity."

Christ is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —- Liberating the Gospels : Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes : Freeing Jesus from 2,000 Years of Misunderstanding, by John Shelby Spong http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060675578 "The Bible has, of course, been read with Jewish eyes from the moment it was written: it is a Jewish book. But Liberating the Gospels is a Christian book; and Spong, bishop of the Episcopal diocese of Newark, New Jersey, urges his Christian audience to remember that the book they call the New Testament was written almost entirely by Jewish authors for an audience that was initially almost entirely Jewish, an audience to whom it would not have occurred to think of the Bible (the ‘Law’ and the ‘Prophets’ ) as anything but Jewish…"

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Romans 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —- Resurrection : Myth or Reality? : A Bishop’s Search for the Origins of Christianity, by John Shelby Spong http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060674296 The Episcopal bishop of Newark, New Jersey, offers a

Response:

Come on Dan. Surely you know that I can find just as many books, written by just-as-competent men, about how the resurrection is as historical as the attack on Pearl Harbor. Do you have anything else?

I submit you cannot find competent unbiased non-christian-dependent men interested in truth who can demonstrate the resurrection was true. The attack on Pearl Harbor? Competent men interested in truth do not dispute the attack on Pearl Harbor. Your historical claim, does that have to do with the truth, fiction, or myth? Dan Fake, FREELOVER #1, who cares deeply about truth, freedom, and maxing out this one and only experience we all know and share on this earth, at this time, in this life. FREELOVER? Freethinking Realist Exploring Expressive Liberty, Openness, Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality (also, pro-love, free from state and church authorities) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Donovan Yarrido wrote … Nah, that’d be too easy. After all, an unflawed faith would be very difficult to refute or deny and we humans can’t Where are your refutations against Christianity? They melt beneath you like snowflakes in the fullness of the summer sun. How poetic. Thanks for that thought. Here are some references for your consideration: The Jesus Puzzle. Did Christianity Begin with a Mythical Christ? Challenging the Existence of an Historical Jesus-, by Earl J. Doherty https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0968601405 "… The epistle to the Hebrews is anonymous. Of those under the names of Peter, James, John and Jude, none today are judged to be authentic. That is, they were not written by those legendary followers of Jesus. These epistles too may originally have been anonymous, or had their original ascriptions dropped; new names were added, possibly at the time the epistles were collected and a canon was being formed …" — The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold-, by Acharaya S http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0932813747 http://www.truthbeknown.com/christcon.htm http://www.truthbeknown.com/christ3.htm http://www.truthbeknown.com/christ4.htm "… In reality, like Jesus, the famous biblical disciples are recorded nowhere in the works of any historian of their time. The only source of the disciples/apostles is in Christian literature, in which the stories of their ‘lives’ are in fact highly apocryphal, allegorical and, therefore, inadequate as ‘history’ or ‘biography’. … The disciple, apostle and saint Peter, ‘the Rock’ to whom so much of the Christian religion is entrusted, is easily revealed to be a mythological character and old motif …" The Book Your Church Doesn’t Want You to Read, by Tim C. Leedom (Editor) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0939040158 "Consider this book as a kind of consumer protection guide to religion, a big step forward toward religious literacy. Readers will explore myths, origins, fundamentalism, television ministries, the identical stories of Stellar/Pagan/ Christian beliefs, unfounded doctrines, child abuse, the Year 2000, and women’s rights. It’s entertaining and readable, with a sense of humor reflecting the absurdities of fundamental religion — while being inoffensive." — Who Wrote the New Testament? The Making of Christian Myth, by Burton L. Mack http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060655186 "I am very selective about books I choose to buy and display; I prefer those that can really make a difference or illustrate a method or a new perspective. Mack’s book does an excellent job of debunking and explaining the Christian myth and deserves widespread reading. If superstition and myth can be recognized and understood as such, society will be strengthened and enriched. It is like the Emperor’s New Clothes – someone has pointed at the Emperor and written an accessible and enlightening book on the subject." — One Jesus, Many Christs : How Jesus Inspired Not One True Christianity, but Many : The Truth About Christian Origins, by Gregory J. Riley http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060667990 "Riley argues that Jesus had a lot in common with familiar figures like Hercules and Achilles. The classical heroes claimed a mix of divine-human parentage, usually with a virgin human mother and a god for a father; they possessed some remarkable or even miraculous skill; they had divine enemies and were hated by powerful humans; they died, often young and violently, as martyrs for a principle; and their deaths powerfully transformed other people’s lives through emulation. Jesus fits the bill perfectly, Riley argues, because the Gospel writers had obtained a classical education, which meant that they were thoroughly steeped in heroic lore. Early converts readily embraced Christianity’s message, despite tremendous penalty from a hostile Roman government, because it captured the heroic formula that peasants had heard recited and then memorized. The second half of the book drives home this point about the source of Christianity’s popularity. Riley demonstrates that it certainly wasn’t doctrine that attracted the masses, since the earliest apostles couldn’t agree on the most basic tenets of the faith. Dozens of sects arose in different cities, all claiming to be the religion of the risen Christ (though whether he had risen in spirit or body was itself a subject of heated debate). What they could agree on was that Jesus was a hero and that they, as martyrs for the faith, could become heroes themselves. Such faithfulness constituted the religion of Christ into the fourth century, which witnessed the conversion of Constantine and the great creedal controversies." — The Case Against Christianity, by Michael Martin http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1566390818 "Logical examination of Christianity by a professional philosopher – This book is logically thorough and destroys Christianity on all important evidential and rational grounds, although I doubt that any whose faith has been sufficient thus far will be led to deconvert. It will however expose them to the fact that they have no rational grounds for their belief." — Pagan and Christian Creeds: Their Origin and Meaning, by Edward Carpenter, preface by Paul Tice http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=158509… " A very level-headed approach, doesn’t go after Christianity to attack it, merely compares and contrasts it with the Pagan world and explores similarities and hidden meanings still present in the religion today. Incredible implications." — Why Christianity Must Change or Die : A Bishop Speaks to Believers in Exile, by John Shelby Spong, Richard Dominick http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060675365 "Spong refers to himself as a believer in exile. He believes the world into which Christianity was born was limited and provincial, particularly when viewed from the perspective of the progress in knowledge and technology made over the past two millennia. This makes any ideas or beliefs formulated in 1st-century Judea totally inadequate to our progressive minds and lives today. So Spong is in exile until Christianity is re-formed to discard all of the outdated and, according to Spong, false tenets of Christianity." — Liberating the Gospels : Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes : Freeing Jesus from 2,000 Years of Misunderstanding, by John Shelby Spong http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060675578 "The Bible has, of course, been read with Jewish eyes from the moment it was written: it is a Jewish book. But Liberating the Gospels is a Christian book; and Spong, bishop of the Episcopal diocese of Newark, New Jersey, urges his Christian audience to remember that the book they call the New Testament was written almost entirely by Jewish authors for an audience that was initially almost entirely Jewish, an audience to whom it would not have occurred to think of the Bible (the ‘Law’ and the ‘Prophets’ ) as anything but Jewish…" — Resurrection : Myth or Reality? : A Bishop’s Search for the Origins of Christianity, by John Shelby Spong http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060674296 The Episcopal bishop of Newark, New Jersey, offers a controversial view of the key element in Christianity–the resurrection of Jesus. Spong suggests that Christians have forgotten that the New Testament frequently makes use of Midrash, a genre in which different biblical motifs are interwoven in order to speak of things that transcend human categories. Thus the story of Joshua’s parting of the sea means that he was a second Moses, and the opening of the heavens at Jesus’ baptism tells us that Jesus is the true Moses. Spong argues that since Jesus’ resurrection is divine, it is beyond the realm of history, and the stories surrounding it are Midrash. The question we need to ask, then, is not whether these stories are literally true, but what experience they describe." — Born of a Woman : A Bishop Rethinks the Birth of Jesus, by John Shelby Spong http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060675233 "John Shelby Spong, best-selling author and Episcopal bishop of Newark, NJ, challenges the doctrine of the virgin birth, tracing its development in the early Christian church and revealing its legacy in our contemporary attitudes toward women and female

Response:

Sure, typing in all caps really helps. (-: The faith is great, the religion we build on top of it is flawed. Nah, that’d be too easy. After all, an unflawed faith would be very difficult to refute or deny and we humans can’t have that, now can we? Nah, we need that "choice" thing so flawed faith, with holes you could drive THE STARSHIP ENTERPRISE through are an obvious prerequisite for belief in the silent and invisible CREATOR of the flaws. IDIOT

Where have I heard that before? Oh well, you seem stuck in a rut. Try to offer something other than ad hominems and you will definitely have a better chance at raising my receptivity to your points of view. Thanks for your consideration. Dan Fake, FREELOVER #1, who cares deeply about truth, freedom, and maxing out this one and only experience we all know and share on this earth, at this time, in this life. FREELOVER? Freethinking Realist Exploring Expressive Liberty, Openness, Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality (also, pro-love, free from state and church authorities) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Mike

Response:

Nah, that’d be too easy. After all, an unflawed faith would be very difficult to refute or deny and we humans can’t

Where are your refutations against Christianity? They melt beneath you like snowflakes in the fulness of the summer sun.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nah, that’d be too easy. After all, an unflawed faith would be very difficult to refute or deny and we humans can’t have that, now can we? Nah, we need that "choice" thing so flawed faith, with holes you could drive THE STARSHIP ENTERPRISE through are an obvious prerequisite for belief in the silent and invisible CREATOR of the flaws. IDIOT Mike Judge not lest ye be judged yourself. Isn’t it funny how people, when they can’t think of something intelligent to say, or an actuall argument for a debate, turn so quickly to meaningless insults? A few questions for Mike: Did calling him an IDIOT in anyway prove, or even argue that his beliefs were wrong and yours were right?

I called him an idiot because I am annoyed at having to respond to pretty much the same post over and over… How did calling him an IDIOT have anything to do with the actual topic?

No If you are christian, was it not your God that said Judge not?

I didnt judge him, I called him an idiot. If you are not christian, who are you to judge others beliefs?

I am. Why must you resort to belittling people in a debate, can you not find a suffician arguement?

Can he stop posting the same thing in different guises over and over again? Did it ever occur to you, that you may be exactly what you are calling others?

Never Mike

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nah, that’d be too easy. After all, an unflawed faith would be very difficult to refute or deny and we humans can’t Where are your refutations against Christianity? They melt beneath you like snowflakes in the fullness of the summer sun. How poetic. Thanks for that thought. Here are some references for your consideration: The Jesus Puzzle. Did Christianity Begin with a Mythical Christ? Challenging the Existence of an Historical Jesus-, by Earl J. Doherty https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0968601405 "… The epistle to the Hebrews is anonymous. Of those under the names of Peter, James, John and Jude, none today are judged to be authentic. That is, they were not written by those legendary followers of Jesus. These epistles too may originally have been anonymous, or had their original ascriptions dropped; new names were added, possibly at the time the epistles were collected and a canon was being formed …" — The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold-, by Acharaya S http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0932813747 http://www.truthbeknown.com/christcon.htm http://www.truthbeknown.com/christ3.htm http://www.truthbeknown.com/christ4.htm "… In reality, like Jesus, the famous biblical disciples are recorded nowhere in the works of any historian of their time. The only source of the disciples/apostles is in Christian literature, in which the stories of their ‘lives’ are in fact highly apocryphal, allegorical and, therefore, inadequate as ‘history’ or ‘biography’. … The disciple, apostle and saint Peter, ‘the Rock’ to whom so much of the Christian religion is entrusted, is easily revealed to be a mythological character and old motif …" The Book Your Church Doesn’t Want You to Read, by Tim C. Leedom (Editor) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0939040158 "Consider this book as a kind of consumer protection guide to religion, a big step forward toward religious literacy. Readers will explore myths, origins, fundamentalism, television ministries, the identical stories of Stellar/Pagan/ Christian beliefs, unfounded doctrines, child abuse, the Year 2000, and women’s rights. It’s entertaining and readable, with a sense of humor reflecting the absurdities of fundamental religion — while being inoffensive." — Who Wrote the New Testament? The Making of Christian Myth, by Burton L. Mack http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060655186 "I am very selective about books I choose to buy and display; I prefer those that can really make a difference or illustrate a method or a new perspective. Mack’s book does an excellent job of debunking and explaining the Christian myth and deserves widespread reading. If superstition and myth can be recognized and understood as such, society will be strengthened and enriched. It is like the Emperor’s New Clothes – someone has pointed at the Emperor and written an accessible and enlightening book on the subject." — One Jesus, Many Christs : How Jesus Inspired Not One True Christianity, but Many : The Truth About Christian Origins, by Gregory J. Riley http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060667990 "Riley argues that Jesus had a lot in common with familiar figures like Hercules and Achilles. The classical heroes claimed a mix of divine-human parentage, usually with a virgin human mother and a god for a father; they possessed some remarkable or even miraculous skill; they had divine enemies and were hated by powerful humans; they died, often young and violently, as martyrs for a principle; and their deaths powerfully transformed other people’s lives through emulation. Jesus fits the bill perfectly, Riley argues, because the Gospel writers had obtained a classical education, which meant that they were thoroughly steeped in heroic lore. Early converts readily embraced Christianity’s message, despite tremendous penalty from a hostile Roman government, because it captured the heroic formula that peasants had heard recited and then memorized. The second half of the book drives home this point about the source of Christianity’s popularity. Riley demonstrates that it certainly wasn’t doctrine that attracted the masses, since the earliest apostles couldn’t agree on the most basic tenets of the faith. Dozens of sects arose in different cities, all claiming to be the religion of the risen Christ (though whether he had risen in spirit or body was itself a subject of heated debate). What they could agree on was that Jesus was a hero and that they, as martyrs for the faith, could become heroes themselves. Such faithfulness constituted the religion of Christ into the fourth century, which witnessed the conversion of Constantine and the great creedal controversies." — The Case Against Christianity, by Michael Martin http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1566390818 "Logical examination of Christianity by a professional philosopher – This book is logically thorough and destroys Christianity on all important evidential and rational grounds, although I doubt that any whose faith has been sufficient thus far will be led to deconvert. It will however expose them to the fact that they have no rational grounds for their belief." — Pagan and Christian Creeds: Their Origin and Meaning, by Edward Carpenter, preface by Paul Tice http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=158509… " A very level-headed approach, doesn’t go after Christianity to attack it, merely compares and contrasts it with the Pagan world and explores similarities and hidden meanings still present in the religion today. Incredible implications." — Why Christianity Must Change or Die : A Bishop Speaks to Believers in Exile, by John Shelby Spong, Richard Dominick http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060675365 "Spong refers to himself as a believer in exile. He believes the world into which Christianity was born was limited and provincial, particularly when viewed from the perspective of the progress in knowledge and technology made over the past two millennia. This makes any ideas or beliefs formulated in 1st-century Judea totally inadequate to our progressive minds and lives today. So Spong is in exile until Christianity is re-formed to discard all of the outdated and, according to Spong, false tenets of Christianity." — Liberating the Gospels : Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes : Freeing Jesus from 2,000 Years of Misunderstanding, by John Shelby Spong http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060675578 "The Bible has, of course, been read with Jewish eyes from the moment it was written: it is a Jewish book. But Liberating the Gospels is a Christian book; and Spong, bishop of the Episcopal diocese of Newark, New Jersey, urges his Christian audience to remember that the book they call the New Testament was written almost entirely by Jewish authors for an audience that was initially almost entirely Jewish, an audience to whom it would not have occurred to think of the Bible (the ‘Law’ and the ‘Prophets’ ) as anything but Jewish…" — Resurrection : Myth or Reality? : A Bishop’s Search for the Origins of Christianity, by John Shelby Spong http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060674296 The Episcopal bishop of Newark, New Jersey, offers a controversial view of the key element in Christianity–the resurrection of Jesus. Spong suggests that Christians have forgotten that the New Testament frequently makes use of Midrash, a genre in which different biblical motifs are interwoven in order to speak of things that transcend human categories. Thus the story of Joshua’s parting of the sea means that he was a second Moses, and the opening of the heavens at Jesus’ baptism tells us that Jesus is the true Moses. Spong argues that since Jesus’ resurrection is divine, it is beyond the realm of history, and the stories surrounding it are Midrash. The question we need to ask, then, is not whether these stories are literally true, but what experience they describe." — Born of a Woman : A Bishop Rethinks the Birth of Jesus, by John Shelby Spong http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060675233 "John Shelby Spong, best-selling author and Episcopal bishop of Newark, NJ, challenges the doctrine of the virgin birth, tracing its development in the early Christian church and revealing its legacy in our contemporary attitudes toward women and female sexuality. Synopsis: Now in paperback from the best-selling author of Living in Sin? comes a carefully researched, bold, and persuasive argument that ‘the virgin of a literal Bible, the virgin of annunciation, Bethlehem, and the manger, corrupted by the years of an overlaid male theology, will have to go’." — Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism : A Bishop Rethinks the Meaning of Scripture, by John Shelby Spong http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060675187 "Now in paperback, the provocative national bestseller that issues a daring call for contemporary understanding of scripture. Outspoken and controversial, Bishop Spong brilliantly reclaims the Bible from the narrow-minded literalism that has been used to justify slavery, ban textbooks, deny the rights of gays and lesbians, subordinate women, and justify war and revenge."

Response:

Nah, that’d be too easy. After all, an unflawed faith would be very difficult to refute or deny and we humans can’t have that, now can we? Nah, we need that "choice" thing so flawed faith, with holes you could drive THE STARSHIP ENTERPRISE through are an obvious prerequisite for belief in the silent and invisible CREATOR of the flaws. IDIOT Mike

Judge not lest ye be judged yourself. Isn’t it funny how people, when they can’t think of something intelligent to say, or an actuall argument for a debate, turn so quickly to meaningless insults? A few questions for Mike: Did calling him an IDIOT in anyway prove, or even argue that his beliefs were wrong and yours were right? How did calling him an IDIOT have anything to do with the actual topic? If you are christian, was it not your God that said Judge not? If you are not christian, who are you to judge others beliefs? Why must you resort to belittling people in a debate, can you not find a suffician arguement? Did it ever occur to you, that you may be exactly what you are calling others? — ***Compulsive Destruction*** promote/find bands. contact me to have yours added http://homepages.go.com/~compdest/ Before you buy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So, christianity and every other faith has flaws. Go figure. Humans created ‘em so how unflawed could they be? The religion is flawed. Now, if god had created any of these faiths, don’t yuh think, just maybe, god could’ve come up with an unflawed faith? Maybe? Don’t yuh think, being omnipotent and all, the all-seeing, all-knowing, master of the universe, THE CREATOR of it all, could’ve come close to an unflawed faith, or no god forbid, could’ve actually created an unflawed faith? DO YOU LISTEN TO ANYTHING WE ACTUALLY SAY? Sure, typing in all caps really helps. (-: The faith is great, the religion we build on top of it is flawed. Nah, that’d be too easy. After all, an unflawed faith would be very difficult to refute or deny and we humans can’t have that, now can we? Nah, we need that "choice" thing so flawed faith, with holes you could drive THE STARSHIP ENTERPRISE through are an obvious prerequisite for belief in the silent and invisible CREATOR of the flaws. IDIOT Where have I heard that before? Oh well, you seem stuck in a rut. Try to offer something other than ad hominems and you will definitely have a better chance at raising my receptivity to your points of view. Thanks for your consideration.

It is duly noted that you have no answer to my objections and that you do infact have no listening mechanism at all. Is that a FREELOVER principle? Mike

Response:

So, christianity and every other faith has flaws. Go figure. Humans created ‘em so how unflawed could they be?

The religion is flawed. Now, if god had created any of these faiths, don’t yuh think, just maybe, god could’ve come up with an unflawed faith? Maybe? Don’t yuh think, being omnipotent and all, the all-seeing, all-knowing, master of the universe, THE CREATOR of it all, could’ve come close to an unflawed faith, or no god forbid, could’ve actually created an unflawed faith?

DO YOU LISTEN TO ANYTHING WE ACTUALLY SAY? The faith is great, the religion we build on top of it is flawed. Nah, that’d be too easy. After all, an unflawed faith would be very difficult to refute or deny and we humans can’t have that, now can we? Nah, we need that "choice" thing so flawed faith, with holes you could drive THE STARSHIP ENTERPRISE through are an obvious prerequisite for belief in the silent and invisible CREATOR of the flaws.

IDIOT Mike

Response:

Nah, that’d be too easy. After all, an unflawed faith would be very difficult to refute or deny and we humans can’t Where are your refutations against Christianity? They melt beneath you like snowflakes in the fullness of the summer sun.

How poetic. Thanks for that thought. Here are some references for your consideration: The Jesus Puzzle. Did Christianity Begin with a Mythical Christ? Challenging the Existence of an Historical Jesus-, by Earl J. Doherty https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0968601405 "… The epistle to the Hebrews is anonymous. Of those under the names of Peter, James, John and Jude, none today are judged to be authentic. That is, they were not written by those legendary followers of Jesus. These epistles too may originally have been anonymous, or had their original ascriptions dropped; new names were added, possibly at the time the epistles were collected and a canon was being formed …" — The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold-, by Acharaya S http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0932813747 http://www.truthbeknown.com/christcon.htm http://www.truthbeknown.com/christ3.htm http://www.truthbeknown.com/christ4.htm "… In reality, like Jesus, the famous biblical disciples are recorded nowhere in the works of any historian of their time. The only source of the disciples/apostles is in Christian literature, in which the stories of their ‘lives’ are in fact highly apocryphal, allegorical and, therefore, inadequate as ‘history’ or ‘biography’. … The disciple, apostle and saint Peter, ‘the Rock’ to whom so much of the Christian religion is entrusted, is easily revealed to be a mythological character and old motif …" The Book Your Church Doesn’t Want You to Read, by Tim C. Leedom (Editor) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0939040158 "Consider this book as a kind of consumer protection guide to religion, a big step forward toward religious literacy. Readers will explore myths, origins, fundamentalism, television ministries, the identical stories of Stellar/Pagan/ Christian beliefs, unfounded doctrines, child abuse, the Year 2000, and women’s rights. It’s entertaining and readable, with a sense of humor reflecting the absurdities of fundamental religion — while being inoffensive." — Who Wrote the New Testament? The Making of Christian Myth, by Burton L. Mack http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060655186 "I am very selective about books I choose to buy and display; I prefer those that can really make a difference or illustrate a method or a new perspective. Mack’s book does an excellent job of debunking and explaining the Christian myth and deserves widespread reading. If superstition and myth can be recognized and understood as such, society will be strengthened and enriched. It is like the Emperor’s New Clothes – someone has pointed at the Emperor and written an accessible and enlightening book on the subject." — One Jesus, Many Christs : How Jesus Inspired Not One True Christianity, but Many : The Truth About Christian Origins, by Gregory J. Riley http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060667990 "Riley argues that Jesus had a lot in common with familiar figures like Hercules and Achilles. The classical heroes claimed a mix of divine-human parentage, usually with a virgin human mother and a god for a father; they possessed some remarkable or even miraculous skill; they had divine enemies and were hated by powerful humans; they died, often young and violently, as martyrs for a principle; and their deaths powerfully transformed other people’s lives through emulation. Jesus fits the bill perfectly, Riley argues, because the Gospel writers had obtained a classical education, which meant that they were thoroughly steeped in heroic lore. Early converts readily embraced Christianity’s message, despite tremendous penalty from a hostile Roman government, because it captured the heroic formula that peasants had heard recited and then memorized. The second half of the book drives home this point about the source of Christianity’s popularity. Riley demonstrates that it certainly wasn’t doctrine that attracted the masses, since the earliest apostles couldn’t agree on the most basic tenets of the faith. Dozens of sects arose in different cities, all claiming to be the religion of the risen Christ (though whether he had risen in spirit or body was itself a subject of heated debate). What they could agree on was that Jesus was a hero and that they, as martyrs for the faith, could become heroes themselves. Such faithfulness constituted the religion of Christ into the fourth century, which witnessed the conversion of Constantine and the great creedal controversies." — The Case Against Christianity, by Michael Martin http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1566390818 "Logical examination of Christianity by a professional philosopher – This book is logically thorough and destroys Christianity on all important evidential and rational grounds, although I doubt that any whose faith has been sufficient thus far will be led to deconvert. It will however expose them to the fact that they have no rational grounds for their belief." — Pagan and Christian Creeds: Their Origin and Meaning, by Edward Carpenter, preface by Paul Tice http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=158509… " A very level-headed approach, doesn’t go after Christianity to attack it, merely compares and contrasts it with the Pagan world and explores similarities and hidden meanings still present in the religion today. Incredible implications." — Why Christianity Must Change or Die : A Bishop Speaks to Believers in Exile, by John Shelby Spong, Richard Dominick http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060675365 "Spong refers to himself as a believer in exile. He believes the world into which Christianity was born was limited and provincial, particularly when viewed from the perspective of the progress in knowledge and technology made over the past two millennia. This makes any ideas or beliefs formulated in 1st-century Judea totally inadequate to our progressive minds and lives today. So Spong is in exile until Christianity is re-formed to discard all of the outdated and, according to Spong, false tenets of Christianity." — Liberating the Gospels : Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes : Freeing Jesus from 2,000 Years of Misunderstanding, by John Shelby Spong http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060675578 "The Bible has, of course, been read with Jewish eyes from the moment it was written: it is a Jewish book. But Liberating the Gospels is a Christian book; and Spong, bishop of the Episcopal diocese of Newark, New Jersey, urges his Christian audience to remember that the book they call the New Testament was written almost entirely by Jewish authors for an audience that was initially almost entirely Jewish, an audience to whom it would not have occurred to think of the Bible (the ‘Law’ and the ‘Prophets’ ) as anything but Jewish…" — Resurrection : Myth or Reality? : A Bishop’s Search for the Origins of Christianity, by John Shelby Spong http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060674296 The Episcopal bishop of Newark, New Jersey, offers a controversial view of the key element in Christianity–the resurrection of Jesus. Spong suggests that Christians have forgotten that the New Testament frequently makes use of Midrash, a genre in which different biblical motifs are interwoven in order to speak of things that transcend human categories. Thus the story of Joshua’s parting of the sea means that he was a second Moses, and the opening of the heavens at Jesus’ baptism tells us that Jesus is the true Moses. Spong argues that since Jesus’ resurrection is divine, it is beyond the realm of history, and the stories surrounding it are Midrash. The question we need to ask, then, is not whether these stories are literally true, but what experience they describe." — Born of a Woman : A Bishop Rethinks the Birth of Jesus, by John Shelby Spong http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060675233 "John Shelby Spong, best-selling author and Episcopal bishop of Newark, NJ, challenges the doctrine of the virgin birth, tracing its development in the early Christian church and revealing its legacy in our contemporary attitudes toward women and female sexuality. Synopsis: Now in paperback from the best-selling author of Living in Sin? comes a carefully researched, bold, and persuasive argument that ‘the virgin of a literal Bible, the virgin of annunciation, Bethlehem, and the manger, corrupted by the years of an overlaid male theology, will have to go’." — Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism : A Bishop Rethinks the Meaning of Scripture, by John Shelby Spong http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060675187 "Now in paperback, the provocative national bestseller that issues a daring call for contemporary understanding of scripture. Outspoken and controversial, Bishop Spong brilliantly reclaims the Bible from the narrow-minded literalism that has been used to justify slavery, ban textbooks, deny the rights of gays and lesbians, subordinate women, and justify war and revenge." — The Christ Myth (Westminster College-Oxford Classics in the Study of Religion), by Arthur Drews, C. Deslisle Burns (Translator), C. Delisle Burns (Translator) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1573921904 "Drawing on the late-eighteenth-century French philosophies and the more contemporary studies of Sir James Frazer and other cultural anthropologists, Drews argues that no basis exists for seeking a historical figure behind the Christ myth. Indeed, if anyone may be called the ‘great personality’ of Christianity, that person is Paul, who gave it the strength to conquer rival religions. Through a comparative study of ancient religions, Drews … read more »

Response:

So, christianity and every other faith has flaws. Go figure. Humans created ‘em so how unflawed could they be? Now, if god had created any of these faiths, don’t yuh think, just maybe, god could’ve come up with an unflawed faith? Maybe? Don’t yuh think, being omnipotent and all, the all-seeing, all-knowing, master of the universe, THE CREATOR of it all, could’ve come close to an unflawed faith, or no god forbid, could’ve actually created an unflawed faith? Nah, that’d be too easy. After all, an unflawed faith would be very difficult to refute or deny and we humans can’t have that, now can we? Nah, we need that "choice" thing so flawed faith, with holes you could drive THE STARSHIP ENTERPRISE through are an obvious prerequisite for belief in the silent and invisible CREATOR of the flaws. — And if you don’t buy in to the flawed faith deal, oblivion or eternal hellfire is your reward? — Oh man, get real, why don’t yuh? — Face it, we don’t know where we came from, we don’t know who we are, and we don’t know where we’re going. — We’re tryin’ to find out. We’re curious, but we just don’t know and inventin’ gods and following flawed faiths of ancient and clueless humans ain’t gonna get you there, no way, no how. — Know no god and know the truth. — Peace, love, live long (forever, if science can pull it off) and prosper but don’t, whatever you do, hurt anyone if you can keep from doing so without endangering your own life or the lives of those you cherish. — Drop your faith. You and your children will love you for it. If not today, tomorrow and forever (maybe, hopefully, as no god is my judge). Dan Fake, FREELOVER #1, who cares deeply about truth, freedom, and maxing out this one and only experience we all know and share on this earth, at this time, in this life. FREELOVER? Freethinking Realist Exploring Expressive Liberty, Openness, Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality (also, pro-love, free from state and church authorities)

Response:

Weigh Down Diet

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Question:

Congrats on the weight loss! As frequently happens, something as basic as "eat when you’re hungry and don’t heat when you’re full" can have a major impact on our WOE (YMMV of course). Keep up the good work! — -Joyce 235/220/147 TOPS Walking goal of 6 miles for 23-29jun00 0/6 Goal of healthy weekend for 6 wkends 3/6 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Been on if for a week now and I’ve lost 8 lbs! It’s so easy, and you eat anything you want. Just do not eat until you are "hungry" and stop when you are "full". Can’t get any easier than that. I won’t go into the God specifics for I do not know if that is against the FAQ or not. :) Daisy

Response:

Been on if for a week now and I’ve lost 8 lbs! It’s so easy, and you eat anything you want. Just do not eat until you are "hungry" and stop when you are "full". Can’t get any easier than that. I won’t go into the God specifics for I do not know if that is against the FAQ or not. :) Daisy

Response:

You can get the "Weigh Down Diet" book at Christian book stores (and possibly regular bookstores). You can also check out their website http://www.wdworkshop.com/ . — -Joyce 235/220/147 TOPS Walking goal of 6 miles for 23-29jun00 0/6 Goal of healthy weekend for 6 wkends 3/6 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would like some info on this diet please! nurse kim Been on if for a week now and I’ve lost 8 lbs! It’s so easy, and you eat anything you want. Just do not eat until you are "hungry" and stop when you are "full". Can’t get any easier than that. I won’t go into the God specifics for I do not know if that is against the FAQ or not. :) Daisy

Response:

I am so happy that you have found what works for you! Eight pounds is fantastic! Keep up the good work! 204/159/150 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Been on if for a week now and I’ve lost 8 lbs! It’s so easy, and you eat anything you want. Just do not eat until you are "hungry" and stop when you are "full". Can’t get any easier than that. I won’t go into the God specifics for I do not know if that is against the FAQ or not. :) Daisy

Response:

I would like some info on this diet please! nurse kim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Been on if for a week now and I’ve lost 8 lbs! It’s so easy, and you eat anything you want. Just do not eat until you are "hungry" and stop when you are "full". Can’t get any easier than that. I won’t go into the God specifics for I do not know if that is against the FAQ or not. :) Daisy

Response:

I am reading and working in the journal of "Diets Don’t Work" (can’t remember author). I have applied it’s thinking for about a week now, trying to make it become habit. Like eating slowly, that’s a hard one for me. I have to concentrate on eating slowly and after each bite I analyze if I am full. One other hard part about it has been "You can eat anything you want". My mind is set in diet mode, so I was thinking, well, I can get that Subway sandwhich with 5 grams of fat, no cheese/no mayo and am allowed to eat the whole thing!! The way I am suppose to look at it is: Get whatever sandwhich I want and eat slowly and monitor when I am full, whether it would be 3 bites into the sandwhich or the whole thing. Or, I would say: "Hmmm, what would be good today?" If I said Fried Chicken, and I was dead set on Fried Chicken, to get some! But eat until I was only comfortably full!! Hard, hard, hard!! If I can lick THAT part of my mental wall block, I’ll have won! In a week, I’ve not lost anything, but I feel better and more in control with myself and I can actually go a whole day without obsessing what I can "have" and what I can not "have".. I have been eating A LOT less than I usually do (I’ve been journaling it just to see and compare it to my normal "diet" pattern, I have been eating whatever food I want (as long as I keep a firm hand on my eating habits and mind set!). Oh well,here’s hoping!! Deanna 212/172 (these 3 pounds to the 160’s is making me crazy!/150 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Other Spiritual motivation books that I have for dieting or fitness are… Faith-Based Fitness by Dr. Kenneth Cooper First Place by Carle Lewis Both of them are very good! Leighsah

Response:

Other Spiritual motivation books that I have for dieting or fitness are… Faith-Based Fitness by Dr. Kenneth Cooper First Place by Carle Lewis Both of them are very good! Leighsah

Response:

I have finished reading the Weigh Down Diet book and started applying the principal as I learned them. I lost 3 pounds and inches in one week!! I, a real good addict, forgot to eat dinner last night!!! It is amazing. I highly recommend this plan. You can eat ANYTHING!!!! It helps you see the spiritual problem you have…….I would love to talk to anyone that wants more information. Laurie

Response:

Have any of you out there tried the Weigh Down Diet? Charl

Response:

No, I haven’t tried it yet, but I just ordered the book and it should be coming sometime this week. Fill me in, though. Is it a low calorie or low fat diet, or something else?

Response:

I recently bought the Weigh Down book (I don’t remember the actual title offhand) but haven’t had a chance to read it yet. I’ll post something about it as soon as I get a chance to look it over. joyce : – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have any of you out there tried the Weigh Down Diet? Charl

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