- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Rice) carved in granite… snip Technically there were elephants in the United States.  They’re called mammoths. I beg to differ.  Although closely related, mammoths were not elephants.

Family Elephantidae Out of the order Proboscidea, developed the family Elephantidae. Within this family, are the Asian elephant, African elephant, and the mammoth.  Previous to these species however, were other closely related ancestors. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Of course they are also old enough that I doubt the nephites would have  had any contact with them.  In fact, several mammoths have been unearthed in the  recent past.  About 10-15 years back one was found just outside of Huntington,  Utah. Another over by Price, Utah IIRC.  I’m wanting to say a few were found  over by Vernal, Utah as well.  But I can’t say that’d be entirely accurate,  either. Carl No Nephites 10K years ago, that’s true.  Maybe there were pre-Nephites though.

Response:

Although closely related, mammoths were not elephants. I wonder if they were the same species just different colors so to speak.

What is a "species"?  Actually, no.  Indian elephants are not even in the same genus as those of the Afrika Korps.  The latter are _Loxodonta_ and the former are _Elephas_.  They have been separated genetically a long time. The same for the Mammoth and Mastodon. Are mammoths and elephants as closely related as say horses and mules?

Nope… Horses are horses (except for Nephite horses which are imaginary) but mules are crosses between horses and donkeys. A stallion horse bred with a bitch donkey produces a(n) hinny but a bitch horse and a  stallion donkey produce a mule.  Asses are the intellectual descendants of Joseph Smith. Agkistrodon

Response:

Technically there were elephants in the United States.  They’re called mammoths. I beg to differ.  Although closely related, mammoths were not elephants.

Mammoths are of genus Mammuthus. Woolly mammoth (M. primigenius) are of the same genus, I believe.  Elephants (Elephas maximus and Loxodonta africana) I believe are also of the same genus.  Mastodons are of the genus Mammut.  Some where I have books that show the taxicology of the proboscidian mammals. — CAUTION: Reading these Scientology "secrets" will give you pneumonia: http://sf.irk.ru/www/ot3/otiii-gif.html http://w4u.eexi.gr/~antbos/XENU.HTM ~~|;’^';-._.-;’^';-._.-;’^';-._.-;’^';-._.-;||’;-._.-;’^';||_.-;’^'0-|~~ O |   Who Drowned the Judge’s Dog?          | . . . . . . . ‘—-. 0 | O

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Book of Mormon is pretty stupid Woops!  It looks like someone did a little research, found Snip & out that his mythologies actually does claim that elephants were in North America, and is now eating crow.  Forcing cultists to actually __read__ their mythologies is step #1. How embarrasing for you, that you did not have the latest information &  evidence of elephants in the Americas pre Columbus. Funny how these invisible elephants of yours aren’t known out in the real world.  Are these invisible elephants of yours pink, by any chance? I refuse further debate with a person who belives elephants can become invisible. And you should think more about your preposterous suggestion of invisible pink elephants. How could the colour of the elephants be identified if they were invisible ?

You have to have faith that they’re pink.  The same faith that’s needed to believe they existed in North America in the first place. I will consider further correspondance if you agree to desist from posting whilst intoxicated.

Or you could just accept that Solomon Spaulding or Joseph Smith — who ever actually wrote the Book of Mormon — simply thought that either mammoths were elephants or simply thought elephants were native to North America. — CAUTION: Reading these Scientology "secrets" will give you pneumonia: http://sf.irk.ru/www/ot3/otiii-gif.html http://w4u.eexi.gr/~antbos/XENU.HTM ~~|;’^';-._.-;’^';-._.-;’^';-._.-;’^';-._.-;||’;-._.-;’^';||_.-;’^'0-|~~ O |   Who Drowned the Judge’s Dog?          | . . . . . . . ‘—-. 0 | O

Response:

lots of blather about what mormon missionaries did or did not – deleted     "Dear Educated Dumbass,     "We wanted to share these papers we got off the internet     with you.  We know that you are a very intelligent man,     but please take a look at them.  They have proved that     horses were in the Americas before the Spanish came in     the 1490’s. This is where your story becomes unbeleivable and it becomes obvious you wrote it yourself.

Or you could call the telephone number the cultist wrote on his little postit notes and ask the "elder" cultist himself if he recalls writing a little love note that begins, "Dear educated dumbass." If you want to pretend that the Mormon cult doesn’t send these lame kooks out selling gods door-to-door unprepared to face better informed people than they’re normally used to seeing at church, you can call my bluff and give the poor dear a phone call.  Be my guest. There is no way they would have said you were an intelligent man after you asked to see their underwear – any man that asks me that is very suspect.

<rofl!  A lot of the neighborhood children also ask the Mormon cultists who float through the city of Glendora if they could see their magic underwear.  The Mormons they meet on the street are good natured about it and there’s no animosity.  In fact last October a number of the neighborhood children went out trick-or-treating dressed as Mormons wearing magic underwear.  When I see these kooks out on their bikes, I always give them a cheerful wave and a, "Good morning, Elders!"  If you can’t be amused by kooks, what’s the point of living? The fact is that these two cultists were going door-to-door trying to sell ignorance and superstition.  They ran into someone who knows a bit about the flora and fauna of North America before the last Ice Age, and also has read the Book of Mormon any number of times — including previous versions that are quite different than the "real true absolutely inspired version this time I’m not kidding you" versions being sold by the kooks today. — CAUTION: Reading these Scientology "secrets" will give you pneumonia: http://sf.irk.ru/www/ot3/otiii-gif.html http://w4u.eexi.gr/~antbos/XENU.HTM ~~|;’^';-._.-;’^';-._.-;’^';-._.-;’^';-._.-;||’;-._.-;’^';||_.-;’^'0-|~~ O |   Who Drowned the Judge’s Dog?          | . . . . . . . ‘—-. 0 | O

Response:

Give it up, Carl. Mormonism is a FRAUD. Joseph Smith was a con-man, a liar, a control freak and a sex freak. Your founders were nutcases. Your religion is so silly, so stupid, so utterly idiotic it defies belief that any sentient human being would adhere to it. Look up to the sky, brother, take a deep breath and walk away from all that crap and nonsense. It’s a spiritual drug that has enslaved your being and impoverished your mind (and taken your money, too). Leave it and be free. Will

Will, I have left the LDS.  I am not LDS in any way shape or form.  While I agree with a lot of what you’re saying, I disagree about the church.  Jesus was ridiculed and essentially proclaimed to be a criminal, was he not?  Or did the romans execute just any Tom Dick and Harry on the cross? The current LDS *is* a fraud.  It is not the LDS Joseph Smith brought to us. Only time the LDS made any real changes is when they did so by proclaiming it was commanded by God.  Like in the late 1800s when they tossed aside polygamy. And in the 70s-80s when they allowed the children of Cain to accept the priesthood. They don’t seem to understand one really simple philosophy- God ain’t into politics, and He will make a change when He decides, and no one else.   What is so hard to understand about that? Carl — "Volunteer emergency personel are like toilet paper- no one realizes how valuable they are until they’re needed." — Coalbunny —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – These two cultists were a minor exception since they ended up rabidly screaming insane nonsense about horses — a truly freakish, surrealistic turn of events utterly disconnected from what proceeded the ranting.  They also ended their "discussion" with a threat which is also mirrored in the insane rant they snuck onto my door in the dead of night. Rabidly screaming insane nonsense about horses? I don’t think so!! Perhaps you were not aware that LDS missionaries have a curfew and must be in their residence in the, "dead of night". snip Woops!  That really annoyed these two.  Not only did the fat one turn red and apoplectic, both hopped off into the weeds and started ranting about horses, telling me that horses lived in North America long before they were reintroduced by the Spanish. Hopped into the weeds ranting? I believe you have an over active imagination. snip Eventually, after losing their undependable argument, these two started threatening my wife by claiming they were going to return when she was home alone.  Sadly I made the mistake of telling them I was phoning the police and the two fled the neighborhood, disappearing quickly enough so that the police couldn’t apprehend them. If you knew even a little about the LDS belief in the rights of the husband as the head of the household, you would not of made such statement. NO LDS missionary would even think of issuing a threat at someone, little on actually doing so. That night, these two Mormons quietly snuck to my front door and set down an envelope containing hate mail — which I’ll get to in a moment. That hate mail was taken to the police department and inspected by the officer behind the counter. What state and town was this Police Department located so your claim can be substantiated? snip Here is the text of these Mormon’s freakish rant.  A photocopy of the four post-its which these two wrote their hate rant on can be found at           http://www.skeptictank.org/m.jpg Pehaps you could give a correct link to these notes. An amusing artifact came from a review of this hate rant by someone who has studied graphology — the study of discerning meaning, emotion, and personality traits from someone’s handwriting.  After I forwarded a copy of the hate rant to a graphologist, he informed me that the person who wrote it was deeply depressed. __The Text of the Freakish Rant:__ Some of the handwriting had to be guessed at yet the poor spelling has been faithfully reproduced.  What’s interesting is the exhibition of hatred, anger, and resentment which culminates in a series of freakish threats involving these Mormon’s invisible monsters. Could you give a Date when when these imaginary missionaries visited you and where this is supposed to have occured? I would like to add commentary after the cultists’ text:     "Dear Educated Dumbass,     "We wanted to share these papers we got off the internet     with you.  We know that you are a very intelligent man,     but please take a look at them.  They have proved that     horses were in the Americas before the Spanish came in     the 1490’s. This is soooo unbelievable, that it just reflects your ignorance of missionaries in the LDS church and their work. snip And where would the cultists’ debunked claims be without eventually having to launch freakishly occult threats against those who dare correct them?  No __real__ Mormon would utter such silly threats but then no __real__ Mormon believes that elephants actually existed in North America before they were introduced by Europeans and the Spanish. Missionaries DO NOT  issue freakish occult threats against anyone! Once again you are showing your ignorance. Another interesting aspect of this rant is the sarcastic claim to want to help me become as uneducated, illiterate, ignorant, superstitious, and as silly as he is.  Now why would I want to become a Mormon when I can see what eventually happens to some followers’ humanity and honesty? I believe this is more hate talk, than reality. I have never heard of any missionary rant on anything.     "We know you are full of a lot of hate.  Anytime (sic) you     feel like taking your hate out on us again, Please (sic) give     us a call. —  Goodday (sic) 852-0358 I haven’t bothered to call yet I believe that’s local to the 626 area code.  It’s enough, I believe, that I forced these two cultists to learn what their mythologies actually say and forced them to learn the fact that elephants weren’t in North America when their mythologies claim they were. Perhaps you should have called ANY LDS church and reported what you thought to be bad behavior on the part of the missionaries.

But then he would have to invent a local ward and Bishop and possible even an imaginary Stake Pres, to go along with the missionaries he imagined or invented. And  from what ive seen so far I dont think he is up to it. Greg  An investigation would – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – have began immediately, but maybe you didn’t want an investiagtion as your false statments would have come out in the open. I don’t believe the police were ever involved as they would have contacted, at the very least, the missionaries themselves. I believe what you have told here is a bald face lie in an attempt to discredit the LDS missionaries that work very diligently at representing the LDS church. — William Barfieldsr

Response:

carved in granite… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Rice) carved in granite… snip Technically there were elephants in the United States.  They’re called mammoths. I beg to differ.  Although closely related, mammoths were not elephants.

I know that and you know that, but do you think that Joseph Smith knew that? How many actual scientists knew that back in "those days"?  I doubt any did. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Of course they are also old enough that I doubt the nephites would have had any contact with them.  In fact, several mammoths have been unearthed in the recent past.  About 10-15 years back one was found just outside of Huntington, Utah. Another over by Price, Utah IIRC.  I’m wanting to say a few were found over by Vernal, Utah as well.  But I can’t say that’d be entirely accurate, either. Carl No Nephites 10K years ago, that’s true.  Maybe there were pre-Nephites though.

Precisely. Carl — "Volunteer emergency personel are like toilet paper- no one realizes how valuable they are until they’re needed." — Coalbunny —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Although closely related, mammoths were not elephants.

I wonder if they were the same species just different colors so to speak. Are mammoths and elephants as closely related as say horses and mules? — Absalom’s Iconoclastic Collection http://www.absalom.com/mormon

Response:

lots of blather about what mormon missionaries did or did not – deleted     "Dear Educated Dumbass,     "We wanted to share these papers we got off the internet     with you.  We know that you are a very intelligent man,     but please take a look at them.  They have proved that     horses were in the Americas before the Spanish came in     the 1490’s.

 This is where your story becomes unbeleivable and it becomes obvious you wrote it yourself.  There is no way they would have said you were an intelligent man after you asked to see their underwear – any man that asks me that is very suspect.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – carved in granite… The Book of Mormon is pretty stupid Woops!  It looks like someone did a little research, found Snip & out that his mythologies actually does claim that elephants were in North America, and is now eating crow.  Forcing cultists to actually __read__ their mythologies is step #1. How embarrasing for you, that you did not have the latest information &  evidence of elephants in the Americas pre Columbus. Funny how these invisible elephants of yours aren’t known out in the real world.  Are these invisible elephants of yours pink, by any chance? Right.  When you find verifiable evidence for these mysterious creatures, do let me and the rest of the world know about it.  I’m sure archeologists would love a copy of the memo too.  <smile Technically there were elephants in the United States.  They’re called mammoths. Of course they are also old enough that I doubt the nephites would have had any contact with them.  In fact, several mammoths have been unearthed in the recent past.  About 10-15 years back one was found just outside of Huntington, Utah. Another over by Price, Utah IIRC.  I’m wanting to say a few were found over by Vernal, Utah as well.  But I can’t say that’d be entirely accurate, either.

Give it up, Carl. Mormonism is a FRAUD. Joseph Smith was a con-man, a liar, a control freak and a sex freak. Your founders were nutcases. Your religion is so silly, so stupid, so utterly idiotic it defies belief that any sentient human being would adhere to it. Look up to the sky, brother, take a deep breath and walk away from all that crap and nonsense. It’s a spiritual drug that has enslaved your being and impoverished your mind (and taken your money, too). Leave it and be free. Will

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – carved in granite… The Book of Mormon is pretty stupid Woops!  It looks like someone did a little research, found Snip & out that his mythologies actually does claim that elephants were in North America, and is now eating crow.  Forcing cultists to actually __read__ their mythologies is step #1. How embarrasing for you, that you did not have the latest information &  evidence of elephants in the Americas pre Columbus. Funny how these invisible elephants of yours aren’t known out in the real world.  Are these invisible elephants of yours pink, by any chance? Right.  When you find verifiable evidence for these mysterious creatures, do let me and the rest of the world know about it.  I’m sure archeologists would love a copy of the memo too.  <smile Technically there were elephants in the United States.  They’re called mammoths.

Technically — and specieswise — mammoths aren’t elephants.  They’re a totally different species that didn’t interbreed successfully.  Joseph Smith held the mistaken notion that mammoths and mastadons were some how the same species as elephants — Smith or Solomon Spaulding — because they look similar.  (Spaulding apparently wrote the Book of Mormon’s first draft in a story titled, "Manuscript Found" a.k.a "Manuscript Story.") Interestingly enough, a mammoth was unearthed in almost complete full body remains from the Siberian tundra a number of years ago and it’s hoped that genetic tinkering will allow cells from the dead mammoth to be mixed with a live elephant to see if cell division will take place.  If so, it will be a mule or a sport, a sterile hybrid or "an organism that shows a marked change from the normal type or parent stock."  _That_ animal will be neither mammoth nor elephant, however.  Half the haploid may or may not invoke cell division with the other half. As I recall, mammoths and elephants may be of the same genus.  But Joseph Smith or Spaulding got it wrong. — CAUTION: Reading these Scientology "secrets" will give you pneumonia: http://sf.irk.ru/www/ot3/otiii-gif.html http://w4u.eexi.gr/~antbos/XENU.HTM ~~|;’^';-._.-;’^';-._.-;’^';-._.-;’^';-._.-;||’;-._.-;’^';||_.-;’^'0-|~~ O |   Who Drowned the Judge’s Dog?          | . . . . . . . ‘—-. 0 | O

Response:

carved in granite… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Book of Mormon is pretty stupid Woops!  It looks like someone did a little research, found Snip & out that his mythologies actually does claim that elephants were in North America, and is now eating crow.  Forcing cultists to actually __read__ their mythologies is step #1. How embarrasing for you, that you did not have the latest information &  evidence of elephants in the Americas pre Columbus. Funny how these invisible elephants of yours aren’t known out in the real world.  Are these invisible elephants of yours pink, by any chance? Right.  When you find verifiable evidence for these mysterious creatures, do let me and the rest of the world know about it.  I’m sure archeologists would love a copy of the memo too.  <smile

Technically there were elephants in the United States.  They’re called mammoths. Of course they are also old enough that I doubt the nephites would have had any contact with them.  In fact, several mammoths have been unearthed in the recent past.  About 10-15 years back one was found just outside of Huntington, Utah. Another over by Price, Utah IIRC.  I’m wanting to say a few were found over by Vernal, Utah as well.  But I can’t say that’d be entirely accurate, either. Carl — "Volunteer emergency personel are like toilet paper- no one realizes how valuable they are until they’re needed." — Coalbunny —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

The Book of Mormon is pretty stupid Woops!  It looks like someone did

a little research, found Snip & out that his mythologies actually does claim that elephants were in North America, and is now eating crow.  Forcing cultists to actually __read__ their mythologies is step #1. How embarrasing for you, that you did not have the latest information &  evidence of elephants in the Americas pre Columbus. Funny how these invisible elephants of yours aren’t known out in the real world.  Are these invisible elephants of yours pink, by any chance?

I refuse further debate with a person who belives elephants can become invisible. And you should think more about your preposterous suggestion of invisible pink elephants. How could the colour of the elephants be identified if they were invisible ? I will consider further correspondance if you agree to desist from posting whilst intoxicated. Greg  (- : Right.  When you find verifiable evidence for these mysterious creatures, do let me and the rest of the world know about it.  I’m sure archeologists would love a copy of the memo too.  <smile — CAUTION: Reading these Scientology "secrets" will give you pneumonia: http://sf.irk.ru/www/ot3/otiii-gif.html

http://w4u.eexi.gr/~antbos/XENU.HTM – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ~~|;’^';-._.-;’^';-._.-;’^';-._.-;’^';-._.-;||’;-._.-;’^';||_.-;’^'0-|~~ O |   Who Drowned the Judge’s Dog?          | . . . . . . . ‘—-. 0 | O

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Book of Mormon is pretty stupid Woops!  It looks like someone did a little research, found Snip & out that his mythologies actually does claim that elephants were in North America, and is now eating crow.  Forcing cultists to actually __read__ their mythologies is step #1. How embarrasing for you, that you did not have the latest information &  evidence of elephants in the Americas pre Columbus. Funny how these invisible elephants of yours aren’t known out in the real world.  Are these invisible elephants of yours pink, by any chance? Right.  When you find verifiable evidence for these mysterious creatures, do let me and the rest of the world know about it.  I’m sure archeologists would love a copy of the memo too.  <smile

Mammuthus primigenius        Woolly mammoths are perhaps the best known mammals of the Ice Age. Much is known about their appearance because carcasses have been found preserved in frozen ground in Siberia, and wall pictures by stone-age artists can be seen today in ancient European caves. Woolly mammoths grew to about the size of present-day Asiatic elephants, possessed warm coats consisting of long, brown guard hairs and soft underwool, large curved ivory tusks, and knob-like heads.      They once roamed the northern parts of Eurasia and North America, feeding on plants such as grasses, sedges, and shrubs. One of the best preserved Canadian specimens consists of most of an entire skeleton from Whitestone River in the Yukon Territory. It died there about 30,000 years ago, according to a radiocarbon date. Their thick coats and heavy layers of fat fitted them for life in cold, tundra-like conditions.      Primitive hunters were sometimes successful in killing them for food. http://www.nature.ca/notebooks/english/woolly.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — CAUTION: Reading these Scientology "secrets" will give you pneumonia: http://sf.irk.ru/www/ot3/otiii-gif.html http://w4u.eexi.gr/~antbos/XENU.HTM ~~|;’^';-._.-;’^';-._.-;’^';-._.-;’^';-._.-;||’;-._.-;’^';||_.-;’^'0-|~~ O |   Who Drowned the Judge’s Dog?          | . . . . . . . ‘—-. 0 | O

Response:

Rice) carved in granite…

snip Technically there were elephants in the United States.  They’re called

mammoths. I beg to differ.  Although closely related, mammoths were not elephants. Of course they are also old enough that I doubt the nephites would have had any contact with them.  In fact, several mammoths have been unearthed in the recent past.  About 10-15 years back one was found just outside of Huntington, Utah. Another over by Price, Utah IIRC.  I’m wanting to say a few were found over by Vernal, Utah as well.  But I can’t say that’d be entirely accurate, either. Carl

No Nephites 10K years ago, that’s true.  Maybe there were pre-Nephites though. — Regards, Lee the James, uM, feminist The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without evidence–Thomas H. Huxley

Response:

These two cultists were a minor exception since they ended up rabidly screaming insane nonsense about horses — a truly freakish, surrealistic turn of events utterly disconnected from what proceeded the ranting.  They also ended their "discussion" with a threat which is also mirrored in the insane rant they snuck onto my door in the dead of night.

Rabidly screaming insane nonsense about horses? I don’t think so!! Perhaps you were not aware that LDS missionaries have a curfew and must be in their residence in the, "dead of night". snip Woops!  That really annoyed these two.  Not only did the fat one turn red and apoplectic, both hopped off into the weeds and started ranting about horses, telling me that horses lived in North America long before they were reintroduced by the Spanish.

Hopped into the weeds ranting? I believe you have an over active imagination. snip Eventually, after losing their undependable argument, these two started threatening my wife by claiming they were going to return when she was home alone.  Sadly I made the mistake of telling them I was phoning the police and the two fled the neighborhood, disappearing quickly enough so that the police couldn’t apprehend them.

If you knew even a little about the LDS belief in the rights of the husband as the head of the household, you would not of made such statement. NO LDS missionary would even think of issuing a threat at someone, little on actually doing so. That night, these two Mormons quietly snuck to my front door and set down an envelope containing hate mail — which I’ll get to in a moment. That hate mail was taken to the police department and inspected by the officer behind the counter.

What state and town was this Police Department located so your claim can be substantiated? snip Here is the text of these Mormon’s freakish rant.  A photocopy of the four post-its which these two wrote their hate rant on can be found at           http://www.skeptictank.org/m.jpg

Pehaps you could give a correct link to these notes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – An amusing artifact came from a review of this hate rant by someone who has studied graphology — the study of discerning meaning, emotion, and personality traits from someone’s handwriting.  After I forwarded a copy of the hate rant to a graphologist, he informed me that the person who wrote it was deeply depressed. __The Text of the Freakish Rant:__ Some of the handwriting had to be guessed at yet the poor spelling has been faithfully reproduced.  What’s interesting is the exhibition of hatred, anger, and resentment which culminates in a series of freakish threats involving these Mormon’s invisible monsters.

Could you give a Date when when these imaginary missionaries visited you and where this is supposed to have occured? I would like to add commentary after the cultists’ text:     "Dear Educated Dumbass,     "We wanted to share these papers we got off the internet     with you.  We know that you are a very intelligent man,     but please take a look at them.  They have proved that     horses were in the Americas before the Spanish came in     the 1490’s.

This is soooo unbelievable, that it just reflects your ignorance of missionaries in the LDS church and their work. snip And where would the cultists’ debunked claims be without eventually having to launch freakishly occult threats against those who dare correct them?  No __real__ Mormon would utter such silly threats but then no __real__ Mormon believes that elephants actually existed in North America before they were introduced by Europeans and the Spanish.

Missionaries DO NOT  issue freakish occult threats against anyone! Once again you are showing your ignorance. Another interesting aspect of this rant is the sarcastic claim to want to help me become as uneducated, illiterate, ignorant, superstitious, and as silly as he is.  Now why would I want to become a Mormon when I can see what eventually happens to some followers’ humanity and honesty?

I believe this is more hate talk, than reality. I have never heard of any missionary rant on anything.     "We know you are full of a lot of hate.  Anytime (sic) you     feel like taking your hate out on us again, Please (sic) give     us a call. —  Goodday (sic) 852-0358 I haven’t bothered to call yet I believe that’s local to the 626 area code.  It’s enough, I believe, that I forced these two cultists to learn what their mythologies actually say and forced them to learn the fact that elephants weren’t in North America when their mythologies claim they were.

Perhaps you should have called ANY LDS church and reported what you thought to be bad behavior on the part of the missionaries. An investigation would have began immediately, but maybe you didn’t want an investiagtion as your false statments would have come out in the open. I don’t believe the police were ever involved as they would have contacted, at the very least, the missionaries themselves. I believe what you have told here is a bald face lie in an attempt to discredit the LDS missionaries that work very diligently at representing the LDS church. — William Barfieldsr

Response:

carved in granite… -snip- I agree.  Give us the case numbers, investigating officer’s name, and which police department so this can be verified. As for you William, until it’s proven to be wrong, do NOT call it "imaginary". What about if we find it’s true?  You ready to eat crow?  No, you won’t.  But, if it is proven to be true, I say you will owe Fred an apology. I have heard of these instances before.  In fact, just a few months ago I personally witnessed a couple ofmissionaries here in town flip a drive the finger.  Yes they were misionaris, yes their bishop heard of that from me and others, and I was less than 50 meters away when the fat one flipped the finger. AFAIC the guy that fat kid flipped off should have came back and broke the same damn finger.  I would have. Carl — "Volunteer emergency personel are like toilet paper- no one realizes how valuable they are until they’re needed." — Coalbunny —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

The other morning I shot a mormon elephant in my pajamas…what a mormon was doing wearing my pajamas, I don’t know!

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These two cultists were a minor exception since they ended up rabidly screaming insane nonsense about horses — a truly freakish, surrealistic turn of events utterly disconnected from what proceeded the ranting.  They also ended their "discussion" with a threat which is also mirrored in the insane rant they snuck onto my door in the dead of night. Rabidly screaming insane nonsense about horses? I don’t think so!!

Yes, the truth stung these clowns so badly that by the time they were trying to escape the found they had left all dignity behind…  to the point the insane cultists had to sneak back during the dark of night. — CAUTION: Reading these Scientology "secrets" will give you pneumonia: http://sf.irk.ru/www/ot3/otiii-gif.html http://w4u.eexi.gr/~antbos/XENU.HTM ~~|;’^';-._.-;’^';-._.-;’^';-._.-;’^';-._.-;||’;-._.-;’^';||_.-;’^'0-|~~ O |   Who Drowned the Judge’s Dog?          | . . . . . . . ‘—-. 0 | O

Response:

The Book of Mormon is pretty stupid Woops!  It looks like someone did a little research, found Snip & out that his mythologies actually does claim that elephants were in North America, and is now eating crow.  Forcing cultists to actually __read__ their mythologies is step #1.

How embarrasing for you, that you did not have the latest information &  evidence of elephants in the Americas pre Columbus. No wonder the poor missionaries were embarrased by your sad attempt to embarrass the in such a silly way. Though it seems they were as ususual very kind and did not make a big sene of your ignorance. I do so admire the way they did not try and make a fool of you as you have tried to do to them. Some people are just kind at heart, then theres the likes of you and I. Heres a place for you to learn a little about elephants old America & prepare for their next visit. (: http://www.the-book-of-mormon.com/photo-proofs.html http://www.the-book-of-mormon.com/elephants.jpg Regards Greg – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — CAUTION: Reading these Scientology "secrets" will give you pneumonia: http://sf.irk.ru/www/ot3/otiii-gif.html http://w4u.eexi.gr/~antbos/XENU.HTM And Saddam: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/ "What were war crimes in 1945 is foreign policy in 2003." Heimatsicherheitsabteilung: Bush’s "Homeland Security" fascism.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Book of Mormon is pretty stupid Woops!  It looks like someone did a little research, found Snip & out that his mythologies actually does claim that elephants were in North America, and is now eating crow.  Forcing cultists to actually __read__ their mythologies is step #1. How embarrasing for you, that you did not have the latest information &  evidence of elephants in the Americas pre Columbus. No wonder the poor missionaries were embarrased by your sad attempt to embarrass the in such a silly way. Though it seems they were as ususual very kind and did not make a big sene of your ignorance. I do so admire the way they did not try and make a fool of you as you have tried to do to them. Some people are just kind at heart, then theres the likes of you and I. Heres a place for you to learn a little about elephants old America & prepare for their next visit. (: http://www.the-book-of-mormon.com/photo-proofs.html http://www.the-book-of-mormon.com/elephants.jpg Regards Greg

Thanks for the links. Are you into UFOs and alien abductions? Here are some links that prove that aliens are among us. Anyone who thinks UFOs and Aliens have been debunked hasn’t read the latest scientific research: http://www.alienobserver.com/ http://www.bright.net/~phobia/main.htm Also, some so called intellectuals actually believe the myth that the earth is round. Ha ha, read these scientific facts and learn the truth. The earth is flat. http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm Aliens, UFO, and a Flat Earth have all been proven scientifically just like the Book of Mormon. It’s time people wake up and get educated.

Response:

The Book of Mormon is pretty stupid Woops!  It looks like someone did a little research, found Snip & out that his mythologies actually does claim that elephants were in North America, and is now eating crow.  Forcing cultists to actually __read__ their mythologies is step #1. How embarrasing for you, that you did not have the latest information &  evidence of elephants in the Americas pre Columbus.

Funny how these invisible elephants of yours aren’t known out in the real world.  Are these invisible elephants of yours pink, by any chance? Right.  When you find verifiable evidence for these mysterious creatures, do let me and the rest of the world know about it.  I’m sure archeologists would love a copy of the memo too.  <smile — CAUTION: Reading these Scientology "secrets" will give you pneumonia: http://sf.irk.ru/www/ot3/otiii-gif.html http://w4u.eexi.gr/~antbos/XENU.HTM ~~|;’^';-._.-;’^';-._.-;’^';-._.-;’^';-._.-;||’;-._.-;’^';||_.-;’^'0-|~~ O |   Who Drowned the Judge’s Dog?          | . . . . . . . ‘—-. 0 | O

Response:

The Book of Mormon is pretty stupid Woops!  It looks like someone did

a little research, found – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Snip & out that his mythologies actually does claim that elephants were in North America, and is now eating crow.  Forcing cultists to actually __read__ their mythologies is step #1. How embarrasing for you, that you did not have the latest information &  evidence of elephants in the Americas pre Columbus. No wonder the poor missionaries were embarrased by your sad attempt to embarrass the in such a silly way. Though it seems they were as ususual very kind and did not make a big sene of your ignorance. I do so admire the way they did not try and make a fool of you as you have tried to do to them. Some people are just kind at heart, then theres the likes of you and I. Heres a place for you to learn a little about elephants old America & prepare for their next visit. (: http://www.the-book-of-mormon.com/photo-proofs.html http://www.the-book-of-mormon.com/elephants.jpg Regards Greg Thanks for the links. Are you into UFOs and alien abductions? Here are some links that prove that aliens are among us. Anyone who thinks UFOs and Aliens have been debunked hasn’t read the latest scientific research:

Your taking life way too serious pal. Did’nt you see my smily face indicating I was joking. Have a beer & chill then take a long walk it will help calm you nerves and help you to see the earth really is flat. The photos from NASA are a total fraud. Im very serious this time. (-: Greg. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.alienobserver.com/ http://www.bright.net/~phobia/main.htm Also, some so called intellectuals actually believe the myth that the earth is round. Ha ha, read these scientific facts and learn the truth. The earth is flat. http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm Aliens, UFO, and a Flat Earth have all been proven scientifically just like the Book of Mormon. It’s time people wake up and get educated.

Response:

The Book of Mormon is pretty stupid on its face however the claims that there were vast civilizations of humans in North America some 2200 years BCE is one of the dumbest notions; a close second to the notion that steel existed at the time:     "The whole face of the land had become covered with buildings,     and the people were as numerous almost, as it were the sands of     the sea." (Mormon 1:7.)     "…fine workmanship of wood, in buildings, and in machinery,     and also in iron and copper, and brass and steel, makings [sic]     all manners of tools…" (Jarom 1:8 and 2 Nepho 5:15.)     "…horses …asses …elephants…" (Ether 9:17-19.) Amusing Hate Rant from Mormon Missionaries This will amuse both real Mormons and non-Mormons alike.  I hope that after reading the hate these two Mormons snuck onto my door in the early morning hours, you won’t judge these two Mormon missionaries too harshly.  Anyone can be misinformed and perpetuate a mistaken notion when it supports their religious beliefs, I suppose, and anyone can honestly believe that the truth about their mistaken religious beliefs are "mocking," "hatred," or "bigotry." Resentment at learning the truth about a deeply-held belief often will manifest itself in claims of hatred and bigotry. Mormon missionaries are no exception. __What Could Prompt Mormons To Act This Way?__ Quite a few months ago two Mormon missionaries made the mistake of knocking on my door.  Sadly, neither one of them would show me their magic underwear so after my request was denied, I lost interest in the two.  Door-to-door deity salesmen are a dime a dozen and I’ve yet to encounter one who wasn’t both truly insane and truly silly.  Going door-to-door trying to sell invisible playmates just isn’t something that sane, rational, thinking people do, after all, and when it is so easy to debunk a mistaken religious belief, door-to-door deity salesmen never fail to grow ever more silly as they attempt to defend the absurdity of their debunked notions. These two cultists were a minor exception since they ended up rabidly screaming insane nonsense about horses — a truly freakish, surrealistic turn of events utterly disconnected from what proceeded the ranting.  They also ended their "discussion" with a threat which is also mirrored in the insane rant they snuck onto my door in the dead of night. __A Problem With Mythologies Being Literally Believed__ The Mormon’s book of mythologies aren’t intended to be literally believed any more than the Christian book of mythologies is.  As legend, myth, and metaphor, most people on Earth recognize such works as having value for the __meanings__ of what they contain, not the literal claims being made.  A "holy" book should be cherished by the religious rather than worshipped by them. The Mormon book of mythology contains a great deal of myth about North America which just isn’t in any way reflected in anthropological and archeological studies.  There are mistakes in the mythologies which reflect the ignorance of the writers.  That’s to be expected. One of the minor things which the Mormon’s book of mythologies mistakenly states is that there were elephants in North America long before they were introduced by Europeans and the Spanish.  Few people would seize upon such a mistake and try to pretend that elephants really were in North America at the time suggested.  It’s an honest mistake based upon the ignorance of the people who wrote the Mormon book of mythologies and should be understood as such. When the two Mormon missionaries claimed that their gods wrote their mythologies, I pointed out the obvious mistake about elephants. Woops!  That really annoyed these two.  Not only did the fat one turn red and apoplectic, both hopped off into the weeds and started ranting about horses, telling me that horses lived in North America long before they were reintroduced by the Spanish. Perhaps Mormon missionaries don’t know the difference between elephants and horses.  I don’t know.  Perhaps it’s because they both have four legs, four feet, tails, two ears, two eyes, a nose, a mouth, teeth, and hair that prompted the unfortunate mistake. Eventually, after losing their undependable argument, these two started threatening my wife by claiming they were going to return when she was home alone.  Sadly I made the mistake of telling them I was phoning the police and the two fled the neighborhood, disappearing quickly enough so that the police couldn’t apprehend them. That night, these two Mormons quietly snuck to my front door and set down an envelope containing hate mail — which I’ll get to in a moment. That hate mail was taken to the police department and inspected by the officer behind the counter. __What The Police Had To Say:__ What’s interesting is that the officer and I agreed completely: cultists — in fact anybody, even the KKK — have the right to practice free speech right up to the point where they start to violate other people’s rights.  Going door-to-door isn’t a crime but vague threats against people’s wives is. Since these two weren’t able to be apprehended, it was suggested that I try to stall them the next time they knocked on the door to give the police time to question them.  I was to show the arresting officer the hate mail left on my door by these two sneaks so that there would be solid grounds for taking them in.  (And, of course, I would have my audio tape of any new threats.) Here is the text of these Mormon’s freakish rant.  A photocopy of the four post-its which these two wrote their hate rant on can be found at           http://www.skeptictank.org/m.jpg An amusing artifact came from a review of this hate rant by someone who has studied graphology — the study of discerning meaning, emotion, and personality traits from someone’s handwriting.  After I forwarded a copy of the hate rant to a graphologist, he informed me that the person who wrote it was deeply depressed. __The Text of the Freakish Rant:__ Some of the handwriting had to be guessed at yet the poor spelling has been faithfully reproduced.  What’s interesting is the exhibition of hatred, anger, and resentment which culminates in a series of freakish threats involving these Mormon’s invisible monsters. I would like to add commentary after the cultists’ text:     "Dear Educated Dumbass,     "We wanted to share these papers we got off the internet     with you.  We know that you are a very intelligent man,     but please take a look at them.  They have proved that     horses were in the Americas before the Spanish came in     the 1490’s. But then I hadn’t claimed otherwise.  It was the two Mormons who seized upon horses after I pointed out their mythology’s mistake about elephants.  Regardless, I learned about the evolution of horses along with about 150 class mates back in the late 1970’s.  It has long been known that horses evolved on North America, migrated North East, died out and were replaced by plains buffalo in North America, and then were re-introduced by the Spanish.  The history and evolution of the modern equine has been known for centuries.     "As for your comment about elephants, all I can say     is they were wrong about horses, they could be wrong     about elephants. Woops!  It looks like someone did a little research, found out that his mythologies actually does claim that elephants were in North America, and is now eating crow.  Forcing cultists to actually __read__ their mythologies is step #1. Forcing them to face up to the fact that their mythologies are fraught with error is step #2. I like the logical fallacies, though.  "They were wrong…" Without exception cultists never mention anyone’s name or any reference to back up their claims — because they’re lying.  The history and evolution of the horse is __the best well known__ history of any species. Nobody was "wrong about horses." The second logical fallacy — the belief that "they" were "wrong" about horses and so "could" be wrong about elephants — is a sad, desperate belief adopted by a coward who can’t admit his mythologies aren’t supposed to be believed literally.     "The bottom line is that the spirit confirmed the truth of     the Prophet Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon.  If you     humble yourself and read it with an open heart and mind,     you will find it is the greatest testimony of the divinity     of the Lord Jesus Christ the World has ever known. In other words, forget the fact that my cult’s mythologies are fraught with honest mistakes and wasn’t written by gods as I had claimed. Focus upon these __other__ claims that are equally mistaken instead.     "We apologize for the way we reacted to your hatred and     ignorance.  We did not react in a Christlike (sic) way.     One of the hardest things for us to tolerate is bigotry,     but we are learning to be temperant in all things. Well, I suppose that’s one way to avoid an embarrassing truth: pretend that those who force you to face up to the fact is some how easily dismissed as bigotry and hatred.  The facts of the matter, however, aren’t so easily dismissed.  Elephants haven’t suddenly appeared in the archeological and paleontological text books just because someone wants to pretend it’s a conspiracy of bigotry and hatred.     "Sex (?) God (sic) will not be mocked!  As for your mocking     the sacredness of our Temple (sic) Garments, (sic) those     words will stand against you at the Judgment (sic) Day. (Sic)     You need to be humbled!  Always remember this, GOD (sic) will     HUMBLE (sic) You! (sic)  When he does, and you are repentent,     (sic) we would love to help you come unto (sic) Christ through     Baptism (sic) into his Church. (sic) And where would the cultists’ debunked claims be without eventually having to launch freakishly occult threats against those who dare correct them?  No __real__ Mormon would utter such silly threats but then no __real__ Mormon believes that elephants … read more »

Response:

HOWEDY David, Try to untangle this mess. tracy is a liar and dog abuser unequaled by any other dog abuser we got here, except lyingdogDUMMY:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Tracy Your reply made me wonder, do you really think it is necessary that the parents of a litter be succesfull show dogs and have other merits as well? No, lots of very wonderful, healthy dogs that conform to the breed standard or are outstanding performers, or have wonderful genetic potential (with the right cross) have never seen the inside of a show ring for one reason or other. However, a show record indicates that the *breeders* are involved with the breed and are somewhat knowledgeable about the standard If the parents are healthy, have normal temperaments, and have been shown at least once or twice so you know they conform to the standard, wouldn’t that be enough? Not necessarily, although it’s a good start. The breeder must be knowledgeable about the genetics of the breed, too. Here’s an example – Australian Cattle Dogs have a real problem with an eye condition called Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA). It’s a double-recessive trait that causes partial or total blindness. There is a genetic test for it now, and there are three possible "patterns": Pattern A, which is a double dominant non-affected (AA), Pattern B (most common), which is what they call homozygous non-affected (Aa), and Pattern C, which is double recessive affected (aa). Upon breeding, each parent supplies one, not both, genes. So, if you cross a Pattern A (AA) with a Pattern B (Aa), theoretically, half the puppies will be Pattern A (AA) and half will be Pattern B (Aa). Crossing two Pattern B’s should yield 25% pattern A, 50% pattern B and 25% pattern C. Crossing a pattern B with a Pattern C will give you 50% Pattern B’s and 50% Pattern C’s. Crossing two pattern C’s will yield ALL pattern C’s. I have a lovely show champion male here who is a Pattern C affected (aa). He was removed from his breeder’s breeding program for that reason. If he were crossed on a pattern A female, none of the puppies would have PRA, but they would pass the recessive gene on to half their offspring. But breeding him to another C or to a B would be a disaster. This test, by the way, costs more than $260 per dog. So, his show record does not prove his breed-worthiness. I believe he *is* breedworthy, but only to the right female. That said, I’m not a breeder, nor do I ever plan to be one! Every breed has some sort of genetic faults. Responsible breeders try to breed out the faults while maintaining the good stuff in the gene pool. But if a person just puts two dogs together who may be in good health and who match the standard, they may wind up scattering genetic faults to the four winds. After all, if only the dogs with the best merits were bred that would make the genepool a bit smaller, and that isn’t a good thing i would think. Yep… that’s the balancing act that a good breeder performs. Every breed needs a certain amount of genetic diversity to maintain quality in the immune system, breeding vigor and numerous other characteristics. But there’s no doubt that the ACD can and will be improved by losing that recessive gene that causes PRA. Careful breeding can achieve that, but we’re a long way away from it since it is present in about 72% of the population. That said, there are outstanding field-bred labs that couldn’t win a championship if their lives depended on it, but they’re breedworthy for their temperaments and abilities. Same for herding ACDs. But still, they should be subjected to the same genetic testing and careful crossing to improve the breed. Two healthy parents aren’t always enough. BTW, even though my dog tests as genetically PRA affected, he’s now 4 years old with no sign of vision impairment. I will be taking him to a veterinary opthalmologist every year to have him evaluated. If he hadn’t had the test, we wouldn’t even KNOW he was affected, and the breeder may well have bred him to another Pattern C affected and carry forth the trait into the next generation. That’s what I was getting at in my post. Kind Regards, Tracy

Response:

HOWEDY David,

"New genes"?  Dogs pretty much have an equal number of genes, critter to critter.  Alleles, well, that’s a different story.

Alleles well that ends well, David. I didn’t want to get all pedantic,

Go right ahead, David. You’re dealin with a second degeneration dog abuser. but while it would be appropriate to use the word "alleles"

All is not as it appears here abHOWETS, David. You’re dealin with predominantely liars and dog abuser and cowards and mental cases who’ll do and say anyting to defend their alleged right to hurt and kill dogs as they’ve done for decades.  in the above situation, it would also be appropriate to use "genes" as a synonym.

HOWE do you tell a girl hormone from a boy hormone? Look in it’s genes. I was assuming that I was talking to people who probably had minimal science background here and I was hoping to make the post understandable.

Oh. That was your mistake. Most of HOWER dog lovers are university trained descarteans who’ll hurt and kill dogs and lie abHOWET it. I don’t see what’s so all-fired great about diversity for its own sake  when the possible choices are 1 healthy allele and a multitude of defective alleles. Why would a mixed breed be more likely to have a "defective"

allele? Your arguments are correct, David. HOWEver, it’s lost in this venue. HOWER DOG LOVERS WILL SAY AND DO ANYTHING TO DEFEND THEIR ALLEGED RIGHT TO HURT AND KILL DOGS. Generally, most crippling genetic diseases are recessive in nature, therefore introducing wild-type genetic material decreases the likelihood of a dog expressing the undesired phenotype.

INDEED. That’s pretty much put HOWER ETHICKAL BREEDERS HOWETA BUSINESS. Wouldn’t it.  As you pointed out, genes are just genes, and dogs just have a random variety.  So my question is, why do you think that a purebred will have better "genes"?

Very good, David. The Puppy Wizard’s question is HOWE COME you’d try to discuss these issues with lyin dog abusing Punk Thug Cowards who intentionally hurt and kill dogs and lie abHOWET it? I also don’t see what’s so all-fired great about lobbing in great gobs of unknown DNA Of course, its not great gobs of unknown DNA, its DNA that came from another dog.  And the great thing, as I mentioned above, is that it reduces the chances of the dog in question expressing recessive phenotypes.

RIGHT. But that’d put the ETHICKAL BREEDERS HOWETA BUSINESS. Wouldn’t it, David? with no clear understanding of the process beyond "diversity Good, uniformity Bad".

Ethickal breeders might just be a OXYMORON, eh David? Unfortunately for your argument, in genetics that mantra actually  holds some water.  Uniformity is a disaster.  Some animals have evolved towards your seeming ideal of asexual production, but most critters on this planet have gone the route of sexual

reproduction. INDEEDY. HOWER dog lovers are F’d. Do you know why?

Cause guys like you and Soup and The Puppy Wizard and all HIS FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Students have EXXXPOSED them as liars, dog abusers, cowards, punks, and mental cases.  Its not just because sex is fun,

Here we’ve got lots of folks who don’t think sex with dogs is fun. They call that animal abuse. They call jerkin and choking and shocking dogs and locking them in boxes to train them LOVE. What kinda society have we developed into? its because diversity is *healthy*

NO. Here we want everyWON to do the same as they’ve been doin so noWON LOOKS like an animal abuser or liar or mental case. It’s what’s called a CONSPIRACY, led by HOWER Master Of Deception blankman and HOWER ethickal breeder and knowledgeable trainers and university behaviorists. In fact, I’d argue that UKNOWN=Bad, far beyond the problems of homozygosity.

There she goes again callin folks names. That’s a ad hominum attack. How is it unknown?

You’ll be AMAZED at the UNKNOWNS HOWER dog lovers own. You mix two dogs together, regardless of breed, and the resulting puppy has some genes from the father and some from the mother.

AMAZING!  Aren’t purebreds in general more sickly than their mixed counterparts?

WON might think, just lookin at pupulations of feral / kennel dogs. No, but thanks for playing.

You gotta realize you’re dealin with pathological liars here abHOWETS, David. From

http://www.petsmart.com/cat/answers/natural_health/articles/article_6… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "To fix a given characteristic into a breed (so that it will breed true, that is, reappear consistently), selected brothers and sisters must be mated, or a parent crossed with its offspring. Such intensive inbreeding might ensure the desired trait, but it might also perpetuate basic weaknesses in the line, such as poor resistance to disease, low stamina, low intelligence, birth defects and inherited diseases that include hemophilia or deafness" Is this wrong?

You can’t have a honest rational DISS-CUSSION with a liar dog abuser and mental case, David.   Do you have any statistics that show that purebreds are

healthier? INDEEDY… they’ll lie abHOWET it.  I doubt it.

Of curse. I’m sure that a daughter bred to her father makes pretty and pure children, but is this really in the best interests of the dogs in question?

All depends on what’s in the genes. You mean it might affect their morals?  Their chance at Heaven? Of course not, don’t be silly.

You won’t be gettin no straight answers from HOWER dog lovers, David.  I meant in terms of their health.

Hey? Don’t you freakin GET IT, David? You’re talkin to a liar and dog abuser a coward and a mental case with many years HISTORY OF ABUSING DOGS, TO DEFEND. Do you think that incest is taboo because of some random

Christian book? Well, it’s pretty common here abHOWETS, David. See "family bed."  Think again, its a fairly uniform taboo across all cultures,

Not here. and it is routed in the experience that you need at least some diversity when reproducing, and incest simply doesn’t provide

it. Oh. NO PROBLEMO. We KILL those dogs that don’t make the cut. Look at the royalty in Europe for a case study in the effects of

inbreeding. Look at these dog abusers killin dogs that don’t suite their critteria? I find it shocking that people who claim to love dogs are inflicting this upon the very animals they adore.

INDEEDY. You ain’t seen NUTHIN yet, David. David

Ever heard of The Puppy Wizard’s SYNDROME? Everything we’ve been taught about dog behavior is DEAD WRONG.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been trying for the last 18 months to help my dog who became fear aggressive at 18 month of age. I do not know what started the problem  but he came aggressive first with dogs and then began lunging and snapping at people. Until this time he loved everyone and could play with any dog.  He was well socialized ad I took him with me everywhere. At 13 months he passed the Canine Good Citizens Test except he could let me leave him.  I had used clicker training to teach him manners and tricks but it was not working on his aggression problem. I took him to vets who suggested a low protein diet, trainers who charged $800 to only make him worse. They tried to use a prong collar and he froze, urinated and tried to climb on my head to help him.  they then suggested a shock collar I knew  this approach was not working as he was becoming more aggressive. I took him to an animal behaviorist with  Ph.D. 400 miles away who told me to "KEEP HIM SAFE" and read a book on the fearful canine.  I tried another trainer who tried to use a nylon chock collar but it only made him worse. I read hundreds of books,"CULTURE CLASH", "DOG ARE FROM NEPTUNE", "THE OTHER END OF THE LEASH", ETC looking for help. We finally went to Purdue University Small Animal Behavior Clinic and they said he had fear aggression, punishment would not work, use the gentle leader and when out walking and he got stressed have the people stop until he could get in control using treats, and work on clicker training. At that point I knew more about clicker training and using the gentle leader than they did! Nothing was working–he would not come when I called him and would run away when I tried to catch him.  I was afraid to walk him even in the neighborhood as we had become that "mean dog and women who hasn’t trained her dog" I went to four trainers in both Michigan and Florida who were trainer/specialists in aggression and the last two were so afraid of him they could not approach him. No one said I should give up on him and kill him but they would say "You have to realize he is dangerous and you are responsible for him."

You got LUCKY, Linda… They coulda got Sunshine DEAD on us. Damned near did… too. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As last resort I tried the internet again–I had had on going discussions with trainers from Triple Crown and Dr Meister with out any help-and I found the ad to Doggy Do Right and messaged Jerry to ask if this might help my dog. He said solving the aggression problem was EZ but I could not believe him even when I downloaded the manual. The name of the method was right I was at my Wits End. I had been working for 18 month! Using the can sound three time he came, and still comes from anywhere with the command-"comegoodboy"  Next I tried the can when walking him–when he saw a dog three blocks away he went off-lunging and snapping-I used the can sound and he looked at me like uhn? I used it three more times and we got to the other dog- -the looked at me wagging his tail–the

… read more »

Response:

A Fleece Jacket from Old Navy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been trying to Christmas shop online, and I’m driving myself crazy over what to get my future DIL. She doesn’t want clothing.  She doesn’t wear jewelry. I know she likes coffee, and I asked my son how about if I make her up a basket of flavored coffees, and he said "NO!"  He doesn’t have a clue what she likes, but he says he knows what she doesn’t like.  Seems like there’s an awful lot of things this girl doesn’t like.  I’ve thought of a gift certificate, but I would like her to have a present to open.  I could get a gift certificate AND something.  But what??? I don’t even know this girl, and neither does my son, or he’d have some suggestions.  At the dinner I had with her parents, I asked her mother for suggestions, and she said a sweater.. and since then, my son has announced that this girl "hates" sweaters.  Who the hell hates sweaters?  This is ridiculous. I’m beginning to resent her, just because I feel frustrated.  Anybody have any suggestions? Sara

Response:

Hi Sara I am a Christian as well.  I have to ask, is Christianity a relatively new thing for your son?  The reason I ask is I have seen so many "new" Christians that are so on fire that sometimes they miss the mark.  Finger pointing and condemnation are not the way to go.  Living as a "quiet" example goes a lot further.  These are things your son will learn as he matures in his faith. As far as the gift, there are so many good Christian contemporary artists who are releasing new CD’s this season.  There is one in particular Becky may like called "Point of Grace".  Don’t stress, Becky will be thankful for whatever you give her. Missy

Hi Missy, No, sadly enough he became a Christian in middle school, about age 13, and he’ll be 25 in January. He’s even a deacon in the church! Sometimes he gets hung up on legalism and forgets grace.  For the most part he’s a great guy, but he gets too zealous at times and it’s a bit difficult to deal with.  I was so angry with him last night, and today I’m better .  He and Becky are coming over sometime today, it’s her birthday, and I’m going to ask HER what she would like for Christmas, and leave him to himself.  BTW, for her birthday, I got her a scarf, hat and gloves.  He seemed to "approve" (Like I care at this point). One observation, he doesn’t mind getting presents himself!  He’s still wearing the sweater I bought for him last Christmas!  Sigh. Sara

Response:

Here’s what I THINK is going on:  He’s real religious, and sometimes that makes him an a-hole.  I am NOT knocking Christianity, I am a Christian myself.

Hi Sara I am a Christian as well.  I have to ask, is Christianity a relatively new thing for your son?  The reason I ask is I have seen so many "new" Christians that are so on fire that sometimes they miss the mark.  Finger pointing and condemnation are not the way to go.  Living as a "quiet" example goes a lot further.  These are things your son will learn as he matures in his faith. As far as the gift, there are so many good Christian contemporary artists who are releasing new CD’s this season.  There is one in particular Becky may like called "Point of Grace".  Don’t stress, Becky will be thankful for whatever you give her. Missy

Response:

Hi Sara I think your idea of a gift basket with flavored coffee is a wonderful idea. I love giving and receiving gift baskets. Its a shame your son vetoed that idea. I bet  your future DIL would have loved it if she loves coffee. I hope you can find something that you think she would like. It is very frustrating when someone is hard to buy for like that. Deb – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been trying to Christmas shop online, and I’m driving myself crazy over what to get my future DIL. She doesn’t want clothing.  She doesn’t wear jewelry. I know she likes coffee, and I asked my son how about if I make her up a basket of flavored coffees, and he said "NO!"  He doesn’t have a clue what she likes, but he says he knows what she doesn’t like.  Seems like there’s an awful lot of things this girl doesn’t like.  I’ve thought of a gift certificate, but I would like her to have a present to open.  I could get a gift certificate AND something.  But what??? I don’t even know this girl, and neither does my son, or he’d have some suggestions.  At the dinner I had with her parents, I asked her mother for suggestions, and she said a sweater.. and since then, my son has announced that this girl "hates" sweaters.  Who the hell hates sweaters?  This is ridiculous. I’m beginning to resent her, just because I feel frustrated.  Anybody have any suggestions? Sara

Response:

Maybe she’s really not that bad.  Maybe he’s just making it worse.  After you give her the gift say something like, "Is it what you wanted?  I found it kind of hard to buy you a gift since I don’t know you that well yet, what is it you like to get?"  Then she will be polite, hopefully, and say, "oh, I like anything really?"  Then say, "oh, so you would have liked some perfume, or coffee, or etc…"  then she’ll say, "oh yea, coffee great, I’m a big coffee drinker." and you’ll say, "oh really, well my son said you wouldn’t like that."  Then if he doesn’t like the gift, which I doubt that she will not, she can talk to her fianc

Do you have any scriptures on exorcism to get me started.  I have read some of the exorcisms of Jesus and the apostles, but can’t think of any in the Old Testament.

I don’t have a list.  If you have a concordance, or if you can use a concordance on a web site, you could look up ‘unclean spirit’ in the KJV.  Most references are in the Gospels.  Also, Peter mentions Jesus ministry to those who were oppressed by the Devil in Acts 10.  The later chapters of Acts tell about Paul performing an excorcism in Philipi.  There are a few examples of excorcism when paul was in Ephesus in the Roman province of Asia in Acts as well.  Is there a particular aspect of the subject you want to learn about? Yeah, I don’t want to read her book after your information about it, but I think I saw in the 1611 that the princes in Daniel’s 70 weeks were originally capitallized differently.  I hadn’t known that the Greek didn’t have a capitalization distinction.  What about the Old Testament writers?

Greek does have capitalization now, but ancient Greek is ‘all caps,’ so to speak.  (Of course, they weren’t caps then, since they didn’t have lower case letters to compare them with.) I took just one quarter of Hebrew in college, and I’ve never heard of such a thing as a capitalized classical Hebrew letter.  I really don’t htink they have capitals.  They didn’t even have vowel markings in the Hebrew Bible until maybe the 300’s– AD that is.  That accounts for James alternate interpretation of the book of Amos in Acts 15– part of it anyway.  James apparently interpreted a word to be ‘Adam’ or mankind or nations, instead of ‘Edom.’  The KJV of the OT goes with Edom, because of the later vowel pointings.  Maybe the ambiguity is there on purpose for a prophetic reason. I think all are capitalization and punction are added by translators. I think we need to be careful to get our doctrine about demons from scripture, and not add to it.  Some doctrines about demons have no real basis in scripture.  Sometimes, those who teach their doctrines take scriptures out of context.  I’ve heard teachings that we are supposed to order principalities and powers over cities to come down. I don’t see that in the Bible.  I do see warnings in the book of Jude, like verse 9.  In the Bible, Jesus and the apostles cast demons out of people, not out of cities.  If we can cast out all the spirits from a city, won’t they come back with seven times as many reinforcements. I don’t see any teaching in the Bible telling us to ‘bind’ spirits. Jesus used ‘binding’ the strongman as an allegory for what He was doing by _casting demons out of people_, and maybe some other ministry he was doing.  ’Binding and loosing’ is apparently legal terminology that the Sanhedrin used to refer to when they allowed or forbid something. Some people blame everything on demons.  If someone is an alcoholic, they interpret this to mean he has a ’spirit of drunkeness’ or a ’spirit of alcoholism.’  If someone is sick, that person is believed to have a demon spirit. I believe demons can cause sickness. Some sickenesses in the Gospel were caused by spirits.  But the end of Matthew 4 says that Jesus cast out demons, healed the ‘lunatick’ (sorry, KJV English) and healed them that had diseases.  That indicates to me that not all sickness or mental illness is caused by an indwelling demon. If character flaws and sins get classified as ‘demons’ it makes it hard for someone with this mentality to overcome sin.  Instead of learning to put to death the deeds of the flesh, and accept by faith that he is dead and raised with Christ, the person who believes all sin is caused by demons may just spend all his time blaiming his sin on imaginary demons he rebukes, instead of focusing on overcoming the lusts of the flesh by the power of the Spirit. ‘Deliverance ministry’ may help some people who are bound in sin.  But I sure don’t think it is a cure all.

Response:

Do you have any scriptures on exorcism to get me started.  I have read some of the exorcisms of Jesus and the apostles, but can’t think of any in the Old Testament. Yeah, I don’t want to read her book after your information about it, but I think I saw in the 1611 that the princes in Daniel’s 70 weeks were originally capitallized differently.  I hadn’t known that the Greek didn’t have a capitalization distinction.  What about the Old Testament writers? God Bless you in the beautiful name of Jesus.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –      I need information about Rebecca Brown, Elaine a.k.a. Elaine Moses, and Daniel Yoder other than what is already on the Internet (Drugs, demons, delusions), demonbuster.com, answers.org. We are trying to find out if this woman REALLY is a Satanist and if her books are truly Satanic. If anyone knows VALID information about this situation please post it or e-mail us at (remove the "NO SPAM") I looked up her web site a few months ago.  She was on the web, and her email is posted. I encourage people not to read her books.  I read maybe one and a half of them in my early 20’s.  I had trouble sleeping, especially after reading the part about if you relax your mind, demons can influence you.  Her books can cause trouble, particularly if you believe everything she writes.  I have read on the internet and talked with other people have had difficulty sleeping after reading Rebecca Brown’s books.  I think the reason is because they make the Devil out to be so big, and Christians’ power seem so small. One question I had somewhere along the way is, why is she writing this book? Wouldn’t it be better if someone who could cast out demons right away, without having to fight with them for a week like she did wrote a book?  There are plenty of books out there on demonology that are a lot better and a lot more Biblical. I don’t have any reason to believe that Rebecca Brown is a witch.  I do have plenty of reason to believe that her books promote unbiblical doctrine.  If her books are all true and accurate, and assuming that Ellen were telling the truth, she is getting her demonology of the spirit-world from a former high priests demonic experience.  Demonic visions are no basis for Christian doctrine on demonology. For example, Brown’s idea that we have ’spirit bodies’ that can leave our bodies, if empowered by demons, and go throw plates at our enemies in their apartments, is not based on scripture.  She takes a verse out of context which is about the way Christian’s bodies will be IN THE RESURRECTION and uses this as a proof text for the idea of spirit-bodies.  Just look up all the scriptures she uses to ‘prove’ her doctrines in those early books. Assuming Rebecca Brown as sincere and genuine, why should she believe anything she ‘learned’ from Ellen about the spirit-world.  How do we know that her astral projection experiences weren’t just demonic visions, and not reality.  The story about one demon tearing another apart reminded me of that verse, if Satan cast out Satan, how can then his kingdom stand.  If demons don’t cast out demons, then would they tear each other apart?  This doesn’t make sense to me. If someone saw demons displaying such a thing, how do they know it is true?  Maybe the demons are just putting on a show for the witches to see, to intimidate them.  Maybe it was a made up story that Brown believed and put in her book.  A lot of Brown’s teachings on demonology in these books are based on Ellen’s experiences in the occult, and not on scripture. Some of her teachings have no merit to them unless you accept KJV onlyism.  She ‘proves’ things by whether the KJV uses a capital or small ’s’ in the word ’spirit.’  The Greek didn’t have a distinction between upper and lower case.  Some of her arguments about the existence of vampires and werewolves are not supported by the verses she quotes.  I don’t think her argument about ‘evil beasts’ verses wild beasts hold water.  Are there werewolves?  Honestly, I’m open to the idea of there being werewolves, as well as flying head witchdoctors (a local story here in Indonesia) and all kinds of demonic manifestations.  I’m a bit skeptical.  But if Egyptian magicians could turn sticks into snakes, maybe demons can manipulate matter.  Who knows?  But I don’t see any reason to read vampires into David’s statement that his enemies teeth were like spears. Her books teach a lot of things that aren’t backed up by scripture. Some of the scripture she uses is clearly taken out of context.  The dangerous thing is that some of the scriptures are taken out of context to support an unbiblical idea that actually comes from the percieved experience of a allegedly formerly demonized high priestess witch.  Assuming the high priestess didn’t also have a problem with lying when she told her experiences, how reliable are her experiences?  Are the visions demonized people see always more reliable than what people see on acid trips? I haven’t read her book about being a vessel of honor in the Master’s service.  The book has a great title, but I’ve only looked through it a couple of times.  It seems to have a lot of detail about how to do witchcraft in it.  How many people really need to know this?  I read an Indonesian translation of one part that said that if someone’s hand gets a demon in it (and therefore feels like it is burning) that you MUST anoint the hand in a very particular way, which involves kind of like wringing the hand downward toward the fingers, covering it with oil.  The implication is that if you don’t do it, the problem would remain. I don’t know of any scripture at all about anointing the demonized with oil.   Assuming we accept the idea of ‘demon-possessed’ hands that feel like they are on fire, why would we HAVE to anoint the hand in that particular way?  COuldn’t someone just cast the demon out by commanding it to go in faith like the apostles in the Bible?  If demons could only be cast out of hands with that specific method of deliverance, why doesn’t the Bible tell us this.  This is pretty important information for people with demonized burning hands. I don’t think you need to go to websites that accuse Brown of being a witch.  Why even pursue this line of reasoning?  If you know someone who is reading Rebecca Brown books, just study her teachings on demonology based on scripture.  Ask as you study whether the verses she uses are taken out of context.  Ask this question too:  does the doctrine she teach come from the Bible, or from the experience of a witch. In the meantime, if whoever is reading this book wants to learn about demonology, carefully look for a book that is consistent with what the Bible has to say– not just the hottest sensational book in the Christian book store.  It would help to get a book from someone who can cast demons out with power.  I can understand how it would be frustrating to get ‘played around with’ by demons in a perons you are trying to help.  But  this is not good experience to write about with the implication that other people should imitate you.  There are probably some better books out there.  The Bible, of course, is an excellent resource.  A lot of people would be better off looking up all the cases and teachings on excorcism in the Bible, rather than buying popular books on the subject from a Christian book store.

Response:

     I need information about Rebecca Brown, Elaine a.k.a. Elaine Moses, and Daniel Yoder other than what is already on the Internet (Drugs, demons, delusions), demonbuster.com, answers.org. We are trying to find out if this woman REALLY is a Satanist and if her books are truly Satanic. If anyone knows VALID information about this situation please post it or e-mail us at (remove the "NO SPAM")

I looked up her web site a few months ago.  She was on the web, and her email is posted. I encourage people not to read her books.  I read maybe one and a half of them in my early 20’s.  I had trouble sleeping, especially after reading the part about if you relax your mind, demons can influence you.  Her books can cause trouble, particularly if you believe everything she writes.  I have read on the internet and talked with other people have had difficulty sleeping after reading Rebecca Brown’s books.  I think the reason is because they make the Devil out to be so big, and Christians’ power seem so small. One question I had somewhere along the way is, why is she writing this book? Wouldn’t it be better if someone who could cast out demons right away, without having to fight with them for a week like she did wrote a book?  There are plenty of books out there on demonology that are a lot better and a lot more Biblical. I don’t have any reason to believe that Rebecca Brown is a witch.  I do have plenty of reason to believe that her books promote unbiblical doctrine.  If her books are all true and accurate, and assuming that Ellen were telling the truth, she is getting her demonology of the spirit-world from a former high priests demonic experience.  Demonic visions are no basis for Christian doctrine on demonology. For example, Brown’s idea that we have ’spirit bodies’ that can leave our bodies, if empowered by demons, and go throw plates at our enemies in their apartments, is not based on scripture.  She takes a verse out of context which is about the way Christian’s bodies will be IN THE RESURRECTION and uses this as a proof text for the idea of spirit-bodies.  Just look up all the scriptures she uses to ‘prove’ her doctrines in those early books. Assuming Rebecca Brown as sincere and genuine, why should she believe anything she ‘learned’ from Ellen about the spirit-world.  How do we know that her astral projection experiences weren’t just demonic visions, and not reality.  The story about one demon tearing another apart reminded me of that verse, if Satan cast out Satan, how can then his kingdom stand.  If demons don’t cast out demons, then would they tear each other apart?  This doesn’t make sense to me. If someone saw demons displaying such a thing, how do they know it is true?  Maybe the demons are just putting on a show for the witches to see, to intimidate them.  Maybe it was a made up story that Brown believed and put in her book.  A lot of Brown’s teachings on demonology in these books are based on Ellen’s experiences in the occult, and not on scripture. Some of her teachings have no merit to them unless you accept KJV onlyism.  She ‘proves’ things by whether the KJV uses a capital or small ’s’ in the word ’spirit.’  The Greek didn’t have a distinction between upper and lower case.  Some of her arguments about the existence of vampires and werewolves are not supported by the verses she quotes.  I don’t think her argument about ‘evil beasts’ verses wild beasts hold water.  Are there werewolves?  Honestly, I’m open to the idea of there being werewolves, as well as flying head witchdoctors (a local story here in Indonesia) and all kinds of demonic manifestations.  I’m a bit skeptical.  But if Egyptian magicians could turn sticks into snakes, maybe demons can manipulate matter.  Who knows?  But I don’t see any reason to read vampires into David’s statement that his enemies teeth were like spears. Her books teach a lot of things that aren’t backed up by scripture. Some of the scripture she uses is clearly taken out of context.  The dangerous thing is that some of the scriptures are taken out of context to support an unbiblical idea that actually comes from the percieved experience of a allegedly formerly demonized high priestess witch.  Assuming the high priestess didn’t also have a problem with lying when she told her experiences, how reliable are her experiences?  Are the visions demonized people see always more reliable than what people see on acid trips? I haven’t read her book about being a vessel of honor in the Master’s service.  The book has a great title, but I’ve only looked through it a couple of times.  It seems to have a lot of detail about how to do witchcraft in it.  How many people really need to know this?  I read an Indonesian translation of one part that said that if someone’s hand gets a demon in it (and therefore feels like it is burning) that you MUST anoint the hand in a very particular way, which involves kind of like wringing the hand downward toward the fingers, covering it with oil.  The implication is that if you don’t do it, the problem would remain. I don’t know of any scripture at all about anointing the demonized with oil.   Assuming we accept the idea of ‘demon-possessed’ hands that feel like they are on fire, why would we HAVE to anoint the hand in that particular way?  COuldn’t someone just cast the demon out by commanding it to go in faith like the apostles in the Bible?  If demons could only be cast out of hands with that specific method of deliverance, why doesn’t the Bible tell us this.  This is pretty important information for people with demonized burning hands. I don’t think you need to go to websites that accuse Brown of being a witch.  Why even pursue this line of reasoning?  If you know someone who is reading Rebecca Brown books, just study her teachings on demonology based on scripture.  Ask as you study whether the verses she uses are taken out of context.  Ask this question too:  does the doctrine she teach come from the Bible, or from the experience of a witch. In the meantime, if whoever is reading this book wants to learn about demonology, carefully look for a book that is consistent with what the Bible has to say– not just the hottest sensational book in the Christian book store.  It would help to get a book from someone who can cast demons out with power.  I can understand how it would be frustrating to get ‘played around with’ by demons in a perons you are trying to help.  But  this is not good experience to write about with the implication that other people should imitate you.  There are probably some better books out there.  The Bible, of course, is an excellent resource.  A lot of people would be better off looking up all the cases and teachings on excorcism in the Bible, rather than buying popular books on the subject from a Christian book store.

Response:

Dear christian brothers and sisters, Rebecca Brown M.D. has written at least four books: He Came to set the Captives Free Prepare for War Becoming a Vessel of Honor Unbroken Curses Her website is: http://www.harvestwarriors.com/      I need information about Rebecca Brown, Elaine a.k.a. Elaine Moses, and Daniel Yoder other than what is already on the Internet (Drugs, demons, delusions), demonbuster.com, answers.org. We are trying to find out if this woman REALLY is a Satanist and if her books are truly Satanic. If anyone knows VALID information about this situation please post it or e-mail us at (remove the "NO SPAM") God bless

Response:

  I don’t know to much about her life and such but I have used her books as a help when I had a friend that was demon possessed or oppressed and the book she wrote was very helpful.       When the demons talked threw her they told us to get rid of to books the BIBLE and her Books that she wrote.       Scott May

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear christian brothers and sisters, Rebecca Brown M.D. has written at least four books: He Came to set the Captives Free Prepare for War Becoming a Vessel of Honor Unbroken Curses Her website is: http://www.harvestwarriors.com/      I need information about Rebecca Brown, Elaine a.k.a. Elaine Moses, and Daniel Yoder other than what is already on the Internet (Drugs, demons, delusions), demonbuster.com, answers.org. We are trying to find out if this woman REALLY is a Satanist and if her books are truly Satanic. If anyone knows VALID information about this situation please post it or e-mail us at (remove the "NO SPAM") God bless

— Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

She actually lives in my town.  I saw her on the train this morning.  I didn’t see her get on the train and I don’t think she saw me when she got on.  I just looked up about a minute after the train departed from a certain station and saw her sitting on the seat in front of me. I have thought this girl seemed quite nice and friendly.  I look up during the journey and she has this Christian book out.  It had illustrations of Moses and shit like that.  I guess she’s a Chrstian.  That’s a good enough reason for me to not bother trying to get too friendly with her. We were both getting off at the same station.  As we were waiting for the train to stop, I stood by the door and I looked over to her.  She said "Hello." to me.  I said "Hi." and smiled.  Here comes the interesting part. Then she said "The usual response to hello is hello."  Then I said "I said hi."  End of conversation.  I must have said "hi" quite quietly at first. The train doors opened and I exited with haste.  I do not enjoy hearing shit like "The usual response to hello is hello."  She must have thought she was being funny or something.  It’s like being asked the dreaded question "Why don’t you talk?"

Response:

"Pumpkinhead" <umpkin_head060…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:wP3ga.1873$Bu5.156@newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net… > I have thought this girl seemed quite nice and friendly.  I look up during > the journey and she has this Christian book out.  It had illustrations of > Moses and shit like that.  I guess she’s a Chrstian.  That’s a good enough > reason for me to not bother trying to get too friendly with her.

Sounds more like you’ve got nothing to lose by talking to this girl > We were both getting off at the same station.  As we were waiting for the > train to stop, I stood by the door and I looked over to her.  She said > "Hello." to me.  I said "Hi." and smiled.  Here comes the interesting > part. Then she said "The usual response to hello is hello."  Then I said > "I said hi."  End of conversation.  I must have said "hi" quite quietly at > first.

Shame you didn’t say something ‘funny’ like "what’s wrong with saying hi? ". > The train doors opened and I exited with haste.  I do not enjoy hearing > shit like "The usual response to hello is hello."  She must have thought > she was being funny or something.  It’s like being asked the dreaded > question "Why don’t you talk?"

It was a shame you ran away, there were plenty of things you could have said, such as "where are you going?", "are you usually on this train", etc. I dunno how much contact you’ve had with DiabeticGirl, but this is a good sign. Eldo.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Eldorado wrote: > "Pumpkinhead" <umpkin_head060…@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:wP3ga.1873$Bu5.156@newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net… > > I have thought this girl seemed quite nice and friendly.  I look up during > > the journey and she has this Christian book out.  It had illustrations of > > Moses and shit like that.  I guess she’s a Chrstian.  That’s a good enough > > reason for me to not bother trying to get too friendly with her. > Sounds more like you’ve got nothing to lose by talking to this girl > > We were both getting off at the same station.  As we were waiting for the > > train to stop, I stood by the door and I looked over to her.  She said > > "Hello." to me.  I said "Hi." and smiled.  Here comes the interesting > > part. Then she said "The usual response to hello is hello."  Then I said > > "I said hi."  End of conversation.  I must have said "hi" quite quietly at > > first. > Shame you didn’t say something ‘funny’ like "what’s wrong with saying hi? > ". > > The train doors opened and I exited with haste.  I do not enjoy hearing > > shit like "The usual response to hello is hello."  She must have thought > > she was being funny or something.  It’s like being asked the dreaded > > question "Why don’t you talk?" > It was a shame you ran away, there were plenty of things you could have > said, such as "where are you going?", "are you usually on this train", etc. > I dunno how much contact you’ve had with DiabeticGirl, but this is a good > sign. > Eldo.

Eldo, do you think you would have done the same thing as Pumpkinhead? I have been in situations like this and my first instinct is to flee (and that’s usually my first action too). It just seems too exhausting to me. What do you say? Can you say anything? I thought I would get over this by now, but no, I still act like an emotional retard at 31!

Response:

I am going through my first cycle of in vitro fertilization.   I have polycystic ovarian syndrome and the doctor prescribed four vials of Follistim for three days, then two vials and finally one vial.  My doctor would like to do the egg retrieval as soon as my estradiol level comes down to about 5 or 6,000.  He states there is a danger to me if they retrieve the eggs at a level higher than around 6,000.  This week I started at 10,000 and now I am at 15,600!!!  My doctor is puzzled and cannot understand this.  I think it is related to my polycystic ovarian syndrome.  If anyone has any knowledge on this subject I would appreciate your input. Cheryl

Response:

Now, I’m no doctor, but… He prescribed 4 vials of Follistim/day to a PCO patient!?!  Have you done stim cycles before with this doctor?  Just wondering, because *most* (but not all!) PCO women stimulate like gangbusters on very low doses.  The danger he’s talking about is ovarian hyperstimulation, which can be very painful and risky.  Have you been monitored via ultrasound to see how many follicles you have? Wow, I don’t know – maybe you can be suppressed for a few days to see if the estradiol levels go down, but I couldn’t tell you what that would do to your egg quality.  Best wishes for a safe and successful cycle. — Anne in Southwest FL IVF Mom to Elizabeth Ann "Lissa" 6/16/99 http://amazon.ofoto.com/I.jsp?m=76700884203&n=1431206664 Change the NOT to NET to email me! Blatant advertisement:  Visit my friend’s Christian book and gift shop: http://www.goodnessandtruth.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am going through my first cycle of in vitro fertilization.   I have polycystic ovarian syndrome and the doctor prescribed four vials of Follistim for three days, then two vials and finally one vial.  My doctor would like to do the egg retrieval as soon as my estradiol level comes down to about 5 or 6,000.  He states there is a danger to me if they retrieve the eggs at a level higher than around 6,000.  This week I started at 10,000 and now I am at 15,600!!!  My doctor is puzzled and cannot understand this.  I think it is related to my polycystic ovarian syndrome.  If anyone has any knowledge on this subject I would appreciate your input. Cheryl

Response:

Be very careful. I hyperstimulated and was in the hospital for 3 weeks. I could have died. My husband was a wreck. They drained my lungs, chest, 4 x. My organs almost shut down. I gained 40 pound in water weight… you get the picture. It’s very dangerous. But since it doesn’t happen often, some doctors don’t take it seriously. The doctor that caused this was too aggressive, and didn’t monitor me enough. He didn’t even visit me in the hospital when I had it!! I was furious. So, take it seriously. I had a friend who was going to hyperstimulate, and they decided to freeze her embryos till next month. That keeps you from hyperstimulating. It worked next month for her, and she has twins. So, there are ways for it to work and yet you don’t risk your life. Good luck.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am going through my first cycle of in vitro fertilization.   I have polycystic ovarian syndrome and the doctor prescribed four vials of Follistim for three days, then two vials and finally one vial.  My doctor would like to do the egg retrieval as soon as my estradiol level comes down to about 5 or 6,000.  He states there is a danger to me if they retrieve the eggs at a level higher than around 6,000.  This week I started at 10,000 and now I am at 15,600!!!  My doctor is puzzled and cannot understand this.  I think it is related to my polycystic ovarian syndrome.  If anyone has any knowledge on this subject I would appreciate your input. Cheryl

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Throwing Away God is a God inspired unconventional Christian Book that exposes false premises of much of the Christian church system that presently holds its members in bondage to those beliefs. For a free preview or to order, go to http://home.fuse.net/mattioli/TAGBook.html Local Author, Joseph Mattioli

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Hopefully, SOMEONE spots the sarcasm here…… I went out tonight, saw a hott girl, and feel "inspired" to masturbate and think of her. I think God would want me with her, so I’ll pretend, while I spank it like a monkey on acid, that she’s my wife, and for the catholics out there, that there’s no bith control involved.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Throwing Away God is a God inspired unconventional Christian Book that exposes false premises of much of the Christian church system that presently holds its members in bondage to those beliefs. For a free preview or to order, go to http://home.fuse.net/mattioli/TAGBook.html Local Author, Joseph Mattioli

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why would Al Queda use ebay? If you think about it, it would be much easier to simply send an encrypted email. Email will only work when you have a defined recipient. When you’re dealing with blind cells, you don’t know where your cells are or even who the members are. That’s how Al Queda works. A cell system means you never directly communicate with your cells. If this is going down, they’re communicating with cells in the Western World, not in Afghanistan or Pakistan. They could be using eBay as a "blind drop signal," so that any knowing cell recipient could pick it up anywhere with no trace. Email leaves a trace. In the world of espionage, a "blind drop signal" is sort of like a billboard that only others "in the know" can see. However, it looks totally innocuous to anyone else. Email, however, is like a telephone call. It leaves a trail that can be traced. KGB spies in the US did something similar during the Cold War with classified ads in major newspapers. They would run ads for a particular type of car and the phone number and price was a code that gave a certain signal for a meeting or a physical drop. Robert Hanssen, the FBI agent who was a spy for the KGB, did this for nearly 20 years. The KGB never actually met him face to face and had no idea who he was, except that he worked inside the US government and had a super-secret clearance. The Soviets thought he was in the CIA. So, today, the same thing could be done with eBay. It’s very plausible that an underground organization could use eBay with digitally encrypted photos, as the article suggests. Whether anyone actually is, however, will probably only be a matter of speculation.

i’m tellin’ ya it’s the christian book with the turd think about it! robert

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I don’t know whether this was discussed here before as I only check in from time to time. Nonetheless, this is an interesting article about terrorists possibly using eBay as a communication mechanism: http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2002/07/17/steganography/

Here’s one example: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2124406489 a. linklurker

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I don’t know whether this was discussed here before as I only check in from time to time. Nonetheless, this is an interesting article about terrorists possibly using eBay as a communication mechanism: http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2002/07/17/steganography/

Response:

I don’t know whether this was discussed here before as I only check in from time to time. Nonetheless, this is an interesting article about terrorists possibly using eBay as a communication mechanism: http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2002/07/17/steganography/

I read it and find it rather difficult to suspend disbelief. —         Mac (doogle)

Response:

I don’t know whether this was discussed here before as I only check in from time to time. Nonetheless, this is an interesting article about terrorists possibly using eBay as a communication mechanism: http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2002/07/17/steganography/

You ever get the feeling reporters have run out of things to write about?

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know whether this was discussed here before as I only check in from time to time. Nonetheless, this is an interesting article about terrorists possibly using eBay as a communication mechanism: http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2002/07/17/steganography/ I read it and find it rather difficult to suspend disbelief. —

i think we just got our explanation of the christian book with the turd pic robert

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Why would Al Queda use ebay? If you think about it, it would be much easier to simply send an encrypted email. I mean if the US gov. is monitoring Al Queda’s outgoing email, don’t you think they would also monitor their web site access and notice massive ebay sales of American culture items (pez dispensers, etc.)??? Which brings up an even better question, who is the best Internet Service Provide in the Tora Bora mountain range? Do you suppose they use DSL or Cable? Give me a break, I think the media must have a contest going to see who can make the public most gullable.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know whether this was discussed here before as I only check in from time to time. Nonetheless, this is an interesting article about terrorists possibly using eBay as a communication mechanism: http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2002/07/17/steganography/

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know whether this was discussed here before as I only check in from time to time. Nonetheless, this is an interesting article about terrorists possibly using eBay as a communication mechanism: http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2002/07/17/steganography/ I read it and find it rather difficult to suspend disbelief. — i think we just got our explanation of the christian book with the turd pic robert

lol

Response:

I don’t know whether this was discussed here before as I only check in from time to time. Nonetheless, this is an interesting article about terrorists possibly using eBay as a communication mechanism: http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2002/07/17/steganography/

Yeah, that’s what all the Beanie Baby auctions were about – all part of Bin Laden’s bunch. -*MORT*-

Response:

Why would Al Queda use ebay? If you think about it, it would be much easier to simply send an encrypted email.

Email will only work when you have a defined recipient. When you’re dealing with blind cells, you don’t know where your cells are or even who the members are. That’s how Al Queda works. A cell system means you never directly communicate with your cells. If this is going down, they’re communicating with cells in the Western World, not in Afghanistan or Pakistan. They could be using eBay as a "blind drop signal," so that any knowing cell recipient could pick it up anywhere with no trace. Email leaves a trace. In the world of espionage, a "blind drop signal" is sort of like a billboard that only others "in the know" can see. However, it looks totally innocuous to anyone else. Email, however, is like a telephone call. It leaves a trail that can be traced. KGB spies in the US did something similar during the Cold War with classified ads in major newspapers. They would run ads for a particular type of car and the phone number and price was a code that gave a certain signal for a meeting or a physical drop. Robert Hanssen, the FBI agent who was a spy for the KGB, did this for nearly 20 years. The KGB never actually met him face to face and had no idea who he was, except that he worked inside the US government and had a super-secret clearance. The Soviets thought he was in the CIA. So, today, the same thing could be done with eBay. It’s very plausible that an underground organization could use eBay with digitally encrypted photos, as the article suggests. Whether anyone actually is, however, will probably only be a matter of speculation.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Devotional Guide For the week of July 14, 2002 Jesus was no mere man Witnesses were interviewed To Read: Psalms 92-95 To Know: "Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things which have been accomplished among us, just as they were delivered to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word." (Lk.1:1,2) The Cavalry was the eyes and ears of a 19th century army. When Lee faced Meade at Gettysburg, he was blind. The Confederates did not know the number of Union troops approaching the little Pennsylvania shoe town. Jesus Christ is presently conquering the world. The weapon of our warfare is the gospel message. Our eyes and ears are the apostles. Christ appointed them as his witnesses. They saw him in life, in death, and after he was alive again. They saw him ascend and experienced his return in the person of his Holy Spirit. Christianity is historical. The gospel happened. The life, death, and resurrection of Jesus occurred in history. Unlike Lee, we do not fight for the faith blind. To Do: Seeing is critical to Christianity. God made himself visible in Christ. Our faith is believing what the eyewitnesses of Jesus say they saw. In order to write his gospel, Luke interviewed the witnesses. Powerful attacks against Christ have been instigated from within the church. These have taught their flocks that Jesus neither died for sins nor rose from the dead. They consider the apostles deceivers. No one can see a forgiven sin but they can see a living Christ. The resurrection of Jesus is public proof that he died for sin. We cannot see the invisible God but we did see Jesus who for a time visited us. Is it conceivable that Christ would rise from the dead as proof that he paid for sin if in truth he did not?

is it plotinus or i cant remember but i think these whitnesses acounts are somehow even recorded in Roman History. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To Ask: Father, I trust what you did in Christ. I believe that my sins are forgiven. 07172$-07032

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Devotional Guide For the week of July 14, 2002 Jesus was no mere man Witnesses were interviewed To Read: Psalms 92-95 To Know: "Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things which have been accomplished among us, just as they were delivered to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word." (Lk.1:1,2) The Cavalry was the eyes and ears of a 19th century army. When Lee faced Meade at Gettysburg, he was blind. The Confederates did not know the number of Union troops approaching the little Pennsylvania shoe town. Jesus Christ is presently conquering the world. The weapon of our warfare is the gospel message. Our eyes and ears are the apostles. Christ appointed them as his witnesses. They saw him in life, in death, and after he was alive again. They saw him ascend and experienced his return in the person of his Holy Spirit. Christianity is historical. The gospel happened. The life, death, and resurrection of Jesus occurred in history. Unlike Lee, we do not fight for the faith blind. To Do: Seeing is critical to Christianity. God made himself visible in Christ. Our faith is believing what the eyewitnesses of Jesus say they saw. In order to write his gospel, Luke interviewed the witnesses. Powerful attacks against Christ have been instigated from within the church. These have taught their flocks that Jesus neither died for sins nor rose from the dead. They consider the apostles deceivers. No one can see a forgiven sin but they can see a living Christ. The resurrection of Jesus is public proof that he died for sin. We cannot see the invisible God but we did see Jesus who for a time visited us. Is it conceivable that Christ would rise from the dead as proof that he paid for sin if in truth he did not? is it plotinus or i cant remember but i think these whitnesses acounts are somehow even recorded in Roman History.

Recorded by whom?

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Devotional Guide For the week of July 14, 2002 Jesus was no mere man Witnesses were interviewed To Read: Psalms 92-95 To Know: "Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things which have been accomplished among us, just as they were delivered to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word." (Lk.1:1,2) The Cavalry was the eyes and ears of a 19th century army. When Lee faced Meade at Gettysburg, he was blind. The Confederates did not know the number of Union troops approaching the little Pennsylvania shoe town. Jesus Christ is presently conquering the world. The weapon of our warfare is the gospel message. Our eyes and ears are the apostles. Christ appointed them as his witnesses. They saw him in life, in death, and after he was alive again. They saw him ascend and experienced his return in the person of his Holy Spirit. Christianity is historical. The gospel happened. The life, death, and resurrection of Jesus occurred in history. Unlike Lee, we do not fight for the faith blind. To Do: Seeing is critical to Christianity. God made himself visible in Christ. Our faith is believing what the eyewitnesses of Jesus say they saw. In order to write his gospel, Luke interviewed the witnesses. Powerful attacks against Christ have been instigated from within the church. These have taught their flocks that Jesus neither died for sins nor rose from the dead. They consider the apostles deceivers. No one can see a forgiven sin but they can see a living Christ. The resurrection of Jesus is public proof that he died for sin. We cannot see the invisible God but we did see Jesus who for a time visited us. Is it conceivable that Christ would rise from the dead as proof that he paid for sin if in truth he did not? is it plotinus or i cant remember but i think these whitnesses acounts are somehow even recorded in Roman History. Recorded by whom?

so long now i cant remember but some secular roman historian – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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so long now i cant remember but some secular roman historian

Who interviewed the witnesses? If you recall the name, please post. I’d be interested.

Response:

so long now i cant remember but some secular roman historian Who interviewed the witnesses? If you recall the name, please post. I’d be interested.

I think it was in this old and lamo attempt at an epistemology of christianity book by Josh McDowell http://www.josh.org/apologetics/ (cRiTiCaL) Comments on "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" In December 1999 someone who had seen this web site asked me to comment on the book "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell. He kindly sent me a copy. It was the first Christian book I had read since my deconversion and in some ways it was an eerie experience looking at one again and revisiting some of those arguments I’d heard so often. I didn’t go right through all of it, as it seemed rather boring in the second part especially. I do know that this book has been reviewed on the infidels.org web site, however I felt it would be more honest to give my own reactions rather than falling back on that; however I wouldn’t pretend to any of the scholarship of that site, this is more my instant reaction. General Comments Target Audience unclear My initial reaction is the feeling that the author fails to produce evidence "for a verdict". He is presenting the case for the prosecution. In most courts of law I ever heard of, this is followed by the defence case. Now obviously I don’t expect him to argue against Christianity. But if he wants "a verdict", I think he must provide space for counter-arguments, perhaps written by someone else, or several people representing Islam, Hinduism and so forth. If he wants to convert, then that is fine, but I think he should say so. The book isn’t entitled "Evidence that demands a conversion" after all. Debating tactics In a number of places he falls for the below-the-belt debating tactic of attacking his opponent, along the lines of "The evidence is overwhelming. The only reason you aren’t converted is some moral reason or ulterior motive which holds you back.". We see that in the foreword, written by someone else, quite strikingly. In one or two places I felt he was rushing into print with words making almost completely nonsensical statements. The passages about "Saving Faith" and "Leap into the Light" come to mind. Key weakness What seems to me to be the essential weakness of his argument is that his defence of the Bible is very flawed. The whole of the rest of his argument falls to the ground if the Bible is not inspired or fallible, yet his argument in its favour is unconvincing to me – and I have studied the Bible for many years, including NT Greek. He launches straight into a list of quotations from the Bible – hardly likely to impress someone yet to be convinced of its validity. However I jump ahead. Let’s look at what he claims to do, and compare it with what he does do. Objectives fulfilled? On page 2 he says: The basic "apologetic" thesis of these notes is: "There is an infinite, all-wise, all-powerful, all-loving God who has revealed Himself by means natural and supernatural in creation, in the nature of man, in the history of Israel and the Church, in the pages of Holy Scripture, in the incarnation of God in Christ, and in the heart of the believer by the gospel." This all sounds very impressive. One would assume that the things to be established are in no particular order, e.g. Scripture isn’t more important than Christ. However the interesting thing is that nowhere in the book does he first establish that there is indeed "an infinite, all-wise … God". What’s the point of establishing that Jesus is God or claimed to be God unless you have a clear idea of who that God is? Likewise the whole area of Creation, and the claim that God revealed himself in it, isn’t justified. Again, from the point of view of an absolute beginner, bemused by references to the Bible before he has been convinced of its relevance, a whole load of terms are presented undefined. For example (and I’ll return to this later), what’s the point of saying that if God became Man, he’d be without sin, when "sin" hasn’t properly been defined? I find myself wondering if this is really aimed at unbelievers, or at propping up the faith of waverers. Specific points I’ll skip the foreword, although I object to a few statements there, as someone else wrote that. Introduction I don’t like the quotations from the Bible, which fill over a page, before the text begins. If you put yourself in the position of someone knowing nothing about Christianity, you’d wonder why the Bible is exclusively selected here and why it is relevant. Saving faith Early on, on page 4 of the book, he makes the most curious argument about "saving faith". At the beginning of the section he explains that there is a difference between faith as such and "saving faith", in that "saving faith  … establishes a relationship with Christ". He seems to be saying that it is a different kind of faith, and that ordinary faith, even in Christ, wouldn’t be "saving". Later on on the same page though, he refers to discussions with a Moslem and with Buddhists, who point to more faithful adherents to those religions than some Christians, and he seems to be saying that it’s because the faith is in Christ that it is "saving". I just don’t really see what is he arguing here. If you need a special kind of faith for it to be "saving", then his discussions with the people from other religions makes no sense. If you don’t, and it only has to be faith in Christ for it to be "saving", then surely he is saying nothing different from the other religions? Leap into the light Moving on to p10, we read about how he considered the evidence and how it was so overwhelming for him that becoming a Christian wasn’t a "leap in the darkness" but a "leap into the light". I just don’t see what he means when he says: If I had exercised "blind faith" I would have rejected Jesus Christ and turned my back on the evidence. How can not believing something be the exercise of faith, "blind" or otherwise? How does this accord with Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see"? Is he saying that faith is going in accordance with the evidence, or going contrary to the evidence? Whether he likes it or not, there are a majority of people, adherents of other religions and none, who take a different view of the evidence. And where does a "de-convert" like me fit in? I had to "turn my back" on what I’d believed for most of my life and face up to people who in many cases became former friends, considering me apostate. This was in response to evidence which to me pointed the other way. Following this passage, he makes his customary few digs at the purported motives of his opponents in not accepting Christ. The Bible The Uniqueness of the Bible This section is all about how unique the Bible is, how it’s the world’s best-seller of all time, how it is completely in harmony despite 40 different authors over 1,000 years etc. I am not particularly impressed by this argument. Lots of books are unique in all sorts of ways. I don’t think that selling well proves anything. I just don’t agree that the Bible speaks with harmony and continuity on hundreds of controversial subjects. Most people would say that the God portrayed in the Old Testament is different in character from that in the New for starters. For example the writer of Exodus has the offences of the violator against the ten commandments visited on subsequent generations whereas later, as in Jeremiah, we have each person responsible for his or her own sin. Even in the duplicated historical passages between Samuel/Kings and Chronicles, such as the temple site, there are petty discrepancies, such as the price paid for the threshing floor, the numbers on the census, and so forth. Some of these can be explained away to some degree, but a book in "harmony" doesn’t need such explanations. Many people (including C.S. Lewis, who is elsewhere quoted freely) would claim, contrary to what he says on p15, to the effect that Moses wrote the Pentateuch, that the Creation and Flood stories were borrowed from the mythology of other people, notably the Babylonians. In page 19 we read about the Septuagint version, but not that it has some clear discrepancies from the Hebrew (although this admitted later). In the same section the bit about being unique in its translation is a bit hollow in view of the arguments over versions! I’ll have to skip over some other bits, but I couldn’t believe what I read about "The Table of Nations" in Genesis 10. He says that the genealogies from Noah there are borne out by modern research. Is the guy serious? Reconstructing the Bible? He makes a bald statement that if all copies of the Bible were lost, it could be reconstructed in all its essential parts from other books in libraries. I thought that he was arguing that the whole Bible is inspired? What does he mean about "all its essential parts"? Are the bits which aren’t "essential", and wouldn’t get reconstructed, less inspired than the rest? I should imagine that none of the genealogies would be reconstructed, and little of the Old Testament histories apart from the well-known stories about Saul, David and Elijah. I can’t see most of the prophets except for a few favourite passages in Isaiah being re-assembled and at most only about half of the Psalms and a few of the Proverbs. I would hazard a guess that at best about a third of the Bible, most of the NT, but only a small fraction of the OT, would thus be reconstructed. This would compare unfavourably with the Koran, which many Moslems know by heart. The Canon In this section Mr McDowell explains how various candidate books were selected or … read more »

Response:

Devotional Guide For the week of July 14, 2002 Jesus was no mere man Witnesses were interviewed To Read: Psalms 92-95 To Know: "Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things which have been accomplished among us, just as they were delivered to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word." (Lk.1:1,2) The Cavalry was the eyes and ears of a 19th century army. When Lee faced Meade at Gettysburg, he was blind. The Confederates did not know the number of Union troops approaching the little Pennsylvania shoe town. Jesus Christ is presently conquering the world. The weapon of our warfare is the gospel message. Our eyes and ears are the apostles. Christ appointed them as his witnesses. They saw him in life, in death, and after he was alive again. They saw him ascend and experienced his return in the person of his Holy Spirit. Christianity is historical. The gospel happened. The life, death, and resurrection of Jesus occurred in history. Unlike Lee, we do not fight for the faith blind. To Do: Seeing is critical to Christianity. God made himself visible in Christ. Our faith is believing what the eyewitnesses of Jesus say they saw. In order to write his gospel, Luke interviewed the witnesses. Powerful attacks against Christ have been instigated from within the church. These have taught their flocks that Jesus neither died for sins nor rose from the dead. They consider the apostles deceivers. No one can see a forgiven sin but they can see a living Christ. The resurrection of Jesus is public proof that he died for sin. We cannot see the invisible God but we did see Jesus who for a time visited us. Is it conceivable that Christ would rise from the dead as proof that he paid for sin if in truth he did not? To Ask: Father, I trust what you did in Christ. I believe that my sins are forgiven. 07172$-07032

Response:

That’s all. I will ‘get’ her tomorrow for the weekend, but she’s had performances on the nights I’m allowed to call her, so she hasn’t been there.  I was actually going to the performance last night but DH had to work late.  Last weekend was her New Orleans trip so I am eager to hear how it went. I did talk to her tonight for just a minute before she had to leave. She asked if it’s OK if she called me back later.  hee hee With hope and heart, Kathleen

Response:

(((HUGS)))…I bet you can’t wait to see her this weekend Jennifer

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On Thu, 2 May 2002 17:13:58 -0500, "Kathleen" <blitz1…@msn.com> wrote: >That’s all.

{{{{Kathleen}}}} Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= You can always tell a Texan, but you can’t tell him much.  - Chris Wall =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix.  It doesn’t come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline.  From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. — Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Response:

> >That’s all. > {{{{Kathleen}}}} > Kitten

Thanks Kitten.  She never called back…  I hate it when that happens! I skipped my Thursday night meeting because she said she would – but I know she’s busy, and since Dad and SM sit there and listen when I call, I figure they would throw a fit if she wanted to call and make her uncomfortable if she did. Does that sound like a vent?  How on earth are you supposed to forgive people like this for being such assholes? I’m reading this book called "The Bait of Satan" (Christian book of course) that is all about resentments and how we have to release the offender and *not* take offense even when it was intended.  Guess I better get back to reading.  ;-) With hope and hearat, Kathleen

Response:

> (((HUGS)))…I bet you can’t wait to see her this weekend > Jennifer

I know!!  Tomorrow night is one of her last steel drum performances! They wouldn’t allow her to take 2 periods of band, and in order to be in steel drums you have to be in a regular band class too, so I am treating it like it’s the last one. Was that a vent too?  I keep thinking I’m getting so much better, more peaceful, and free about this stuff. Acceptance, surrender.  Acceptance, surrender.  Repeat as needed. With hope and heart, Kathleen

Response:

On Thu, 2 May 2002 17:13:58 -0500, "Kathleen" <blitz1…@msn.com> wrote: > I did talk to her tonight for just a minute before she had to leave. > She asked if it’s OK if she called me back later.  hee hee

(((hugs))).  I know you’ll enjoy your time with her this weekend.  Sorry this is so hard.

Response:

On Thu, 2 May 2002 21:21:58 -0500, "Kathleen" <blitz1…@msn.com> wrote: >> >That’s all. >> {{{{Kathleen}}}} >> Kitten >Thanks Kitten.  She never called back…  I hate it when that happens! >I skipped my Thursday night meeting because she said she would – but I >know she’s busy, and since Dad and SM sit there and listen when I >call, I figure they would throw a fit if she wanted to call and make >her uncomfortable if she did. >Does that sound like a vent?  How on earth are you supposed to forgive >people like this for being such assholes?

It’s hard, isn’t it. >I’m reading this book called "The Bait of Satan" (Christian book of >course) that is all about resentments and how we have to release the >offender and *not* take offense even when it was intended.  Guess I >better get back to reading.  ;-)

<shudder> I tend to have an aversion to books that try to blame things on Satan. They tend to minimize this thing called "Free Will." A book on letting go that I like is "The Wisdom of Letting Go: The Path of the Wounded Soul" by Father Leo Booth.  Fr. Leo is an Episcopalian (sp?)  minister (I think it’s Episcopalian – whatever it is in England). Thank you for posting abt the book you’re reading and reminding me abt Fr. Leo’s book.  OS has slid back into a very angry and agressive mode lately, although not nearly what he was like 6 months ago.  I think I’ll have him read Fr. Leo’s chapter on Violence.  It starts out as follows:  = = = <it>  How can I let go of these feelings of violence?  They are who I am.  </it> For some years I’ve been explaining how religious abuse tells you what you are not, and it is spirituality that tells you who you are! <it> We are not violent.  </it> We are, I believe, human beings made in the image of God, the God of Love.  Because I believe this, I also believe our essential nature is love.  = = = I think maybe this particular chapter will be helpful for OS. We have an extra copy of the book (around here, somewhere) if you’d like to borrow it. Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= You can always tell a Texan, but you can’t tell him much.  - Chris Wall =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix.  It doesn’t come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline.  From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. — Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Response:

"Kathleen" <blitz1…@msn.com> wrote in message

news:aasdtr$df6i2$1@ID-108718.news.dfncis.de… > That’s all. > I will ‘get’ her tomorrow for the weekend, but she’s had performances > on the nights I’m allowed to call her, so she hasn’t been there.  I > was actually going to the performance last night but DH had to work > late.  Last weekend was her New Orleans trip so I am eager to hear how > it went. > I did talk to her tonight for just a minute before she had to leave. > She asked if it’s OK if she called me back later.  hee hee > With hope and heart, > Kathleen

(((Kathleen)))  I don’t know what else to do except hug you…hope it helped.. Barb — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.351 / Virus Database: 197 – Release Date: 4/19/2002

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> >I’m reading this book called "The Bait of Satan" (Christian book of > >course) that is all about resentments and how we have to release the > >offender and *not* take offense even when it was intended.  Guess I > >better get back to reading.  ;-) > <shudder> > I tend to have an aversion to books that try to blame things on Satan. > They tend to minimize this thing called "Free Will."

Yes, I know exactly what you mean.  I have gotten a lot out of this book though.  I am getting good at "Take what you can use and leave the rest" with these type of books, but so far this one hasn’t irked me in that way.  :-) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> A book on letting go that I like is "The Wisdom of Letting Go: The > Path of the Wounded Soul" by Father Leo Booth.  Fr. Leo is an > Episcopalian (sp?)  minister (I think it’s Episcopalian – whatever it > is in England). > Thank you for posting abt the book you’re reading and reminding me abt > Fr. Leo’s book.  OS has slid back into a very angry and agressive mode > lately, although not nearly what he was like 6 months ago.  I think > I’ll have him read Fr. Leo’s chapter on Violence.  It starts out as > follows: >  = = = > <it>  How can I let go of these feelings of violence?  They are who I > am.  </it> > For some years I’ve been explaining how religious abuse tells you what > you are not, and it is spirituality that tells you who you are! > <it> We are not violent.  </it> > We are, I believe, human beings made in the image of God, the God of > Love.  Because I believe this, I also believe our essential nature is > love. >  = = = > I think maybe this particular chapter will be helpful for OS. > We have an extra copy of the book (around here, somewhere) if you’d > like to borrow it. > Kitten

If you happen to come across it I would love to read it!  That is exactly what our sermon was on this morning – love.  It was titled "taming the tongue" but the bottom line was that if you are not behaving and speaking from love, then it is not God.  And also (because we just had a very high stress election day with half of our town wanting to abolish the 2yo city government) about how if we don’t love our neighbor, we aren’t obeying God’s 2nd most important rule. With hope and heart, Kathleen, who didn’t intend on getting off on a religious tangent

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