Christianity QA

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes The Hebrew Catholic Movement What? They’re Catholic converts of Jewish origin who want to follow the mitzvot and are pushing for a Hebrew rite in the Church. I think that’d be fabulously offensive and insensitive. Then Christianity itself is fabulously offensive and insensitive.

what took you so to figure that out? I don’t believe in organized religion. I am a Jew.

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x-no-archive: yes The Hebrew Catholic Movement What? They’re Catholic converts of Jewish origin who want to follow the mitzvot and are pushing for a Hebrew rite in the Church.

WOW!   Self-hate’s ability to mutate can only be compared to that of HIV’s.

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that’s how the trinity got into Christianity, No. The Trinity is not borrowed. The first mention of the word ‘Trinity’ was first used in 180 AD, and the concept is quite present in the writings of the Fathers.

     The idea of a multiple-god-in-one came from the pagans. So they didn’t have the word "trinity." That’s not the point I was making. The point I am making is that Chrsitianity came into existence by the taking of concepts of pagan idolatry, and then calling it a new form of Judaism. But all this took many centuries.     Mordechai — Visit the Being Jewish web site http://www.freeyellow.com/members2/beingjewish The latest in interactive Jewish study!

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Interfaith is a fancy name for Jews for Jesus. Jews for Jesus is the same as Jews for Hitler Now that is just gratuitous bigotry.    Not at all. The Nazis got their bigotry from Christianity, a few generations removed. Most Nazis considered themselves Christians, and Hitler wrote in "Mein Kampf" that he was doing the "work of God."<

I disagree. GErmans in general got their aversion to mixing with other races back in ancient days. Race, health and blood have been part and parcel of the Germanic tribes  since time immemorial. They essentially bred themselves. So Hitler’s words fell on many receptive ears IN Mein Kampf, Hitler describes his first sight of religious Jews, and was shocked. He said, "These are Germans?" He remarks about their noses and other racial features, as well as the caftans and outfits. He was clearly anti-Jewish from the racial point of view and regarded Christianity as a "Jewish plot" to subvert and weaken the Aryan noble savage.    Believing in jesus is not all that far from believing in Hitler.<

This is utter, sheer rubbish. The Germans got their humanity from Jesus. Hitler was a throwback to their primordial tribal racial savagery. If you read Tacitus’ description of some of the 1st century Germanic tribes, he describes how it was incumbent on a youth to murder an enemy before any woman would marry him. He had to prove his strength and bravery  or he could not shave his beard and no woman would have him. SO the Germans bred themselves into strength and weeded out weaklings through institutionalized, ritualized murder. jesus also said he would cause to be killed all those who did not follow him or believe in him. jesus tied it to faith, hitler tied it to race.<

Bad analogy. Jesus claimed that He was "the Way," the path to heaven as opposed to hell. The only difference is that with Hitler the only choice was death.<

Choice for who? The JEws? The weak? Of course. It was part of the Germanic racial tradition to murder the weak, the cunning, etc. Hitler merely brought them back to their roots. It was Christianity that "Judaized" and "weakened" them as he saw it. With the Christians, there were often two choices: conversion or death. Rock and a hard place.<

That was basically not true. The Inquisition was never about conversion. Most Jews don’t understand what it was. You see, according to CHrist, there is only one sin for which one can never repent, and this is to first accept Him and then deny Him. Now, when the Moors were defeated in Spain, the Jews were given a choice: COnversion or deportation. It was NOT conversion or death. The Jews were seen as collaborators with the Muslims who had been living on Spanish lands and were hated as such. Most Jews left the land they loved and had lived in prosperously for hundreds of years. THese are the Sephardics, which is Hebrew for Hispanics. As we know they spread to North Africa, the ME and even what became Latin America. An elite minority of Jews pretended to convert, and accepted Christ. They were probably the Madeline ALbrights and Cap Weinbergers of their day. But many kept their Jewish tradition hidden in underground ceremonies. The were called Marranos, or "pigs" by the Christians for their false conversions. Nonetheless, they still remained wealthy and prominent even in the now Christian Spain. But nevertheless, the racial and economic hatreds remained. ANtisemitism is a form of eternal racism that never passes away. Torquemada, himself probably a converted Jew, became a persecutor of the Marranos in the Inquisition. The tortures of the Inquisition was administered presumably to save the souls of these false conversos who had taken Christ and betrayed Him again. They would have to confess, repent and then die in order to save their souls from eternal damnation. This was the doctrinal reasons, but the reality was to rob the false Christians and drive them out of Spanish society. Their monies and estates went to the "Church," i.e., the clerics of the inquisition and the state.   Your sort of thinking, the denigration of those with differing religious viewpoints, was an underlying cause of the persecution of Jews in medieval Europe.      The difference is that no Jew has ever called for the death of all Christians or Jews for j people.<

That’s true. But the simple fact is that antisemitism has always been racism with a doctrinal patina, and the ulterior motive was robbery. On occasion, the clerics and the thugs made a good team against the Jews. But it should be understood that the Church in Rome never condoned the murder of Jews.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – that’s how the trinity got into Christianity, No. The Trinity is not borrowed. The first mention of the word ‘Trinity’ was first used in 180 AD, and the concept is quite present in the writings of the Fathers.      The idea of a multiple-god-in-one came from the pagans. So they didn’t have the word "trinity." That’s not the point I was making. The point I am making is that Chrsitianity came into existence by the taking of concepts of pagan idolatry, and then calling it a new form of Judaism. But all this took many centuries.<

Well, one missionary friend of mine said the word "BaRA" (created) as in, "In the beginning God created…" might be an acronym for Ben, RUach v’ Abba (Son, Spirit and Father). Oh well, so much for acronyms, numerology, "secret codes" and kabbalah. All a pile of bull.

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To put Hebrew, which we call _lashon hakodesh_, the Holy Tongue, to such a use would be close to sacrilege.

    Er, not "close to sacrilege." It WOULD BE sacrilege.  Mordechai — Visit the Being Jewish web site http://www.freeyellow.com/members2/beingjewish The latest in interactive Jewish study!

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The Church tries to find what is good in their former religions. For instance, when Chinese convert to Catholicism, instead of ancestor worship, they pray for their dead relatives; in Western Canada, there’s a lake which was sacred to the Natives, called Lake Saint Anne. It was named after Saint Anne because those particular Natives are attatched to grandmother figures. Catholicism borrowed quite a bit from the Greeks; I also know of a nun who learned Zen meditation in Japan. There are numerous examples of this kind of thing happpening. I don’t see it as taking away from the purity of the faith.

     In fact, that’s how many elements got adopted into Christianity in the first place, and why Christianity no longer resembles Judaism very much, if at all. That’s how saint Bridgett got into Catholicism, that’s how the trinity got into Christianity, and that’s why Christianity is a pagan religion instead of being similar to Judaism.     Mordechai — Visit the Being Jewish web site http://www.freeyellow.com/members2/beingjewish The latest in interactive Jewish study!

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Interfaith is a fancy name for Jews for Jesus. Jews for Jesus is the same as Jews for Hitler Now that is just gratuitous bigotry.

   Not at all. The Nazis got their bigotry from Christianity, a few generations removed. Most Nazis considered themselves Christians, and Hitler wrote in "Mein Kampf" that he was doing the "work of God."    Believing in jesus is not all that far from believing in Hitler. jesus also said he would cause to be killed all those who did not follow him or believe in him. jesus tied it to faith, hitler tied it to race. The only difference is that with Hitler the only choice was death. With the Christians, there were often two choices: conversion or death. Rock and a hard place. Your sort of thinking, the denigration of those with differing religious viewpoints, was an underlying cause of the persecution of Jews in medieval Europe.

     The difference is that no Jew has ever called for the death of all Christians or Jews for j people.    Mordechai — Visit the Being Jewish web site http://www.freeyellow.com/members2/beingjewish The latest in interactive Jewish study!

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Interfaith is a fancy name for Jews for Jesus. Jews for Jesus is the same as Jews for Hitler

Now that is just gratuitous bigotry. You are entitled to disagree strongly with "Jews" who see Jesus as their messiah, I know that I as an agnostic find the idea a little amusing, but it is not the same as Nazism. Other people are entitled to their religious beliefs, we may not agree with them, but we have no right to abuse them. Your sort of thinking, the denigration of those with differing religious viewpoints, was an underlying cause of the persecution of Jews in medieval Europe. Is mise le meas, Brian Cahill

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They’re Catholic converts of Jewish origin who want to follow the mitzvot and are pushing for a Hebrew rite in the Church. I think that’d be fabulously offensive and insensitive.

Why? Don’t people have the right to use any language they like? I don’t have much time for these people’s religious beliefs either, but if you are so easily offended, perhaps you’d be better off living in a hermitage… Is mise le meas, Brian Cahill

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They’re Catholic converts of Jewish origin who want to follow the mitzvot and are pushing for a Hebrew rite in the Church. SF If they’re catholic, they believe that Yeshu died for their sins and all that stuff.<

Gentiles, Christians or whatever, are not bound to the Laws of Moses and never were. If they choose to bind themselves to the Laws of Moses they should become Jews altogether. They are under no obligation other than the simple laws given to Noah at the end of the Flood. Why would they want to follow mitzvot, when eating the flesh and the blood is so much more convenient ?<

Actually, this phrase out of the Gospels of John is gravely misunderstood by the world. What I believe was meant by that, was that Christians were not to get angry and take blood in revenge for wrongdoing, nor eat of the flesh of their enemies, so to speak, out of rage. Rather, since Christ was the "Lamb," or the sacrifice for their sins, they were to "eat" out of His flesh and "drink of His blood" so to speak, for vengeance is the Lord’s. The Roman CHurch turned this phrase into the ritual of the Eucharist, which was sort of pandering to the residual paganism of some of their barbarian converts who at earlier times even conducted human sacrifice.

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They’re Catholic converts of Jewish origin who want to follow the mitzvot and are pushing for a Hebrew rite in the Church. I think that’d be fabulously offensive and insensitive. Why? Don’t people have the right to use any language they like? I don’t have much time for these people’s religious beliefs either, but if you are so easily offended, perhaps you’d be better off living in a hermitage…

It would depend.  From Suzanne’s description, it sounds like some segment or other within the Church is attepting to go for the soi-disant "Messianic" "Jew" segment of the market. Any attempt to incorporate Jewish liturgy into Catholic ritual would, I repeat, be fabulously offensive.  The idea that Catholics would be, for some incomprehensible reason, endeavoring to "follow the mitzvot" (which as far as I can tell, you all don’t subscribe to) would be fabulously offensive. By the way, we don’t do hermitages.  That’s _your_ shtick. — C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:., I:.A:.S:.

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Then, advancing to sainthood an anti-semite. Sainthood does not imply a person did not have faults.

    That doesn’t come as much as a surprise to me, seeing as how jesus himself is portrayed in the Christian bible as a mean s.o.b. who hated everyone and cursed people, towns, and even fig trees. Christians love to talk about learning from jesus’ life, so I read the Christian bible, and found that he said one thing but he always did another. he didn’t get along with anyone, not even his friends or his own family. He insulted his hosts, he disdained his family, and he really laid it into his own followers, who, understandably, deserted him as soon as he was arrested.    This is assumming, of course, that anything the Christian bible says is actually true, seeing as how the writers evidently knew nothing about Jewish life (and therefore must have been Gentiles writing about the events centuries later).    So of course the saints are not perfect. Who would expect them to be, when this is what they have to emulate? You mean Catholics of Jewish origin just want to celebrate their newfound faith in the Tradition of their ancestors? That’s no different than others.

     Not a single one of them has an ancestor who had any such tradition, unless they are descended from Gentiles.     Mordechai — Visit the Being Jewish web site http://www.freeyellow.com/members2/beingjewish The latest in interactive Jewish study!

Response:

The Hebrew Catholic Movement What? They’re Catholic converts of Jewish origin who want to follow the mitzvot and are pushing for a Hebrew rite in the Church.

I think that’d be fabulously offensive and insensitive. You mean Catholics of Jewish origin just want to celebrate their newfound faith in the Tradition of their ancestors? That’s no different than others.

Suzanne, there is _no possible way_ for these people to "celebrate their newfound faith in the Tradition of their ancestors" — their newfound faith is, as we have patiently tried to demonstrate, totally incompatible with "the Tradition of their ancestors".  To put Hebrew, which we call _lashon hakodesh_, the Holy Tongue, to such a use would be close to sacrilege. If these folks are so all-fired-up about their "newfound faith", why don’t they stick to the Catholic liturgical forms?  Is the Church also going to consider putting idols of Kali into churches in India so _those_ folks can also worship "in the Tradition of their ancestors"?  How about Mexico? A ritual flaying of and cutting out of heart from a sacrificial victim would certainly make an interesting addition to a Mass. I’m appalled. — C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:., I:.A:.S:.

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I never insinuated anyone participating was evil, like many people have done towards me. If you want to look at immoderate people, look at your own selves.

Spider Robinson was right: God _is_ an iron. — C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:., I:.A:.S:.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -x-no-archive: yes The Hebrew Catholic Movement What? They’re Catholic converts of Jewish origin who want to follow the mitzvot and are pushing for a Hebrew rite in the Church. SF

If they’re catholic, they believe that Yeshu died for their sins and all that stuff. Why would they want to follow mitzvot, when eating the flesh and the blood is so much more convenient ?

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The Hebrew Catholic Movement What? They’re Catholic converts of Jewish origin who want to follow the mitzvot and are pushing for a Hebrew rite in the Church.

Oy vey!  First, co-opting a Holocaust victim and Jewish convert to Catholicism as a saint.  Then, advancing to sainthood an anti-semite. And now this . . . . .

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I don’t start most threads. I mostly moderate and make sure the rules are followed.

I would hardly describe your actions in alt.messianic as being moderate. jds

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Were most Nazis Catholic

Actually we still have the voting records by province which show that very few Nazi party votes came from Catholic areas. BAM

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At any rate, I have absolutely no qualms about anything I’ve said or done in alt.messianic.

  Others disagree. Personally I think you should be impeached from your   self-appointed position in alt.messianic.   You give Catholics everywhere a bad name with your postings.   Chuck Coen

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Stick with (pig) Latin. Hebrew is a holy language. Not for Kofrim. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes The Hebrew Catholic Movement What? They’re Catholic converts of Jewish origin who want to follow the mitzvot and are pushing for a Hebrew rite in the Church. SF

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The Hebrew Catholic Movement

What?

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Interfaith is a fancy name for Jews for Jesus. Jews for Jesus is the same as Jews for Hitler or Jews for Netury Karta. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes Here are some topics being discussed on the Catholic/Jewish Discussion Board at CIDS: Passage about Jesus in the Talmud The Hebrew Catholic Movement Freedom of religion on Israel If you would like to join these dynamic and civil discussions, please go to the Catholic Interfaith Discussion Site at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/7724/religion.htm SF

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :Here are some topics being discussed on the Catholic/Jewish Discussion :Board at CIDS: assage about Jesus in the Talmud :The Hebrew Catholic Movement Then adds :Freedom of religion on Israel Why isn’t there: Reparations for the Inquisition Why Catholics murder Jews Were most Nazis Catholic

Probably because nobody brought them up. I am not hugely interested in such a discussion board (as I am neither Catholic nor Jewish), but I would guess that any contributor would be free to bring up any (relevant) topic they like. As for the ones you suggest… Reparations for an event which happened centuries ago? Do you honestly believe that modern Catholics can be held personally responsable for the actions of their extremely distant ancestors? Why do Catholics murder Jews? Why does anybody murder anybody? Were most Nazi’s Catholic? No, given the religious demographics of Germany I would guess that most (of those who were religious at all) nazi’s were Lutheran. Is mise le meas, Brian Cahill

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:Here are some topics being discussed on the Catholic/Jewish Discussion :Board at CIDS: assage about Jesus in the Talmud :The Hebrew Catholic Movement Then adds :Freedom of religion on Israel Why isn’t there: Reparations for the Inquisition Why Catholics murder Jews Were most Nazis Catholic    [ spam snipped ] —

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